Thanks J_n_z, please keep these coming.
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Thanks J_n_z, please keep these coming.
Sweden SS6: OSTBERG
Feeling the lack of rear aero. "It's horrible without the rear wing. The car is designed to have it... and without it it's the worst handing car."
No shit. ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ps5ursbhhf.jpg
I think that aero is just a gimmick, after all there are many people who won stages without aero in the past...
I post this here also, easier to find than in the Sweden thread.
Latvala presents the Yaris’s aero. Nothing special what he says else that they have to have downforce also in the front because of big rear wing. In the end good view of the diffuser. They are not using the openings at front of the rear wheels in Sweden.
http://yle.fi/urheilu/3-9453531
When 1995?Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Man please keep of this thread, it is about how things work and not about how things are being said.
Look swedish rally results and stop making fool of yourself...
I am not following this sw rally closely, how rough are stages or are stages becoming?
It was said in the past that Toyota may have less suspension travel... if it is truth it should be working even better.
you must be new here kid...Quote:
Originally Posted by J_n_z
Craig Breen SS7 "The first time I've felt the effects of a damaged front aero package. We patched it up as best we could but it's incredible the effect that the aero makes..."
But NOT thinks he knows better... :rolleyes:
According to Ogier, this is the rally where we’ll get to see the cars’ bigger wings influencing the proceedings for the first time.
"It’s always a compromise between finding some grip but also not having too much drag," he says. “With the speeds we’re going to have this weekend, aerodynamics is going to play a big role. You’ve also got some big straights here and drag is going to cost you speed and performance.
“I don’t know exactly how each team has worked on that, but it’s always a compromise between finding some grip but also not having too much drag. Here, the drag will have a big influence, especially on Knon. It’s really fast and has got long, long straights, so the engine is going to count, and aero as well.”
Hej, is this you?Quote:
Originally Posted by J_n_z
–
Tuomas Töyry
Finnish photographer and Rally Co-driver!Finland , Jämsä
·tuomastoyryralli.kuvat.fi
–
@janvanvurpa
If you meant me... no, just saw pictures and posted the link. I have no access to live WRC at the moment, too much work to do and to many children to feed... some day, when my beard will be completely gray :)
You must be the dinosaurQuote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
i have built this place kid.Quote:
Originally Posted by mozesii
My point exactly dinosaurQuote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
What Nicolas are do at 26:00 here https://www.facebook.com/vincent.ver...0549309801771/ ?
Some stickers to radiator? But why?
at very cold climate are blocking some air to the coolers(air/water) to help the engine work at normal temps.Quote:
Originally Posted by KKS
All wrc cars at Sweden have some kind of these.
Just a thought.
With the extended Aero, and in this specific, the flat floor and diffusor, will work better the closer to the ground it is. Are off's like meekes today be a result of gambling with rideheight? It was some real weird car-behaveior in the last corners egen you see the inboard from the insident.
Sent fra min XP7700 via Tapatalk
I think he was just too fast there, the car didn't turn. But in theory, yes, the low pressure area beneath the car is weaker with bigger ride height.Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
They do this after/before each stage? For road/stage mode?Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
I ve seen it at stage mode.Probably is up to what temperatures they have.
Here is my first attempt at creating an aero analysis of the 2017 WRC cars. There is always a risk of making oneself look like a fool when doing this, but I’ll give it a go :). I will start with the Fiesta and will expand with all the other cars as and when I have the time, but I can already see some very interesting features on the Yaris. I am also no expert on the regulations and although I have downloaded them, the nature in which they are presented is very different to the world of ground up designed racing cars where I come from, which makes the WRC tech regs a real challenge for me to follow.
1. Ford Fiesta
Attachment 1235
The diffuser on the Fiesta appears to be the shallowest (1) of them all, this is not necessarily a disadvantage in terms of aero, but it is quite modest in comparison to the rest of the field. The transition area into the diffuser (2) is quite narrow as dictated by the suspension arm protectors (3), which in turn, at their trailing edge, do not form a continuous transition into the diffuser, though they probably provide a nice skirted area around the central floor into the diffuser transition, which would help with accelerating the air flow and reducing the air pressure further there. Nevertheless, integrating the trailing edges nicely into the diffuser surface (notwithstanding the technical challenges involved in this) may deliver an added benefit (something that appears to be done on the Yaris on some of the images). The diffuser streaks appear to extend below the surface of the flat floor in front of the diffuser, but I suspect this is optical illusion and like in many other forms of mototsport they are not allowed to do so, but once again a proper read of the tech regs should provide an answer to this question.
Moving towards the front of the car, there appears to be a non-flat area, which I don’t know if it is because of the tech regs/homologation or it is done for creating an aero benefit. The image is not clear enough for me to see what happens there, but I can see similar features on the Yaris, though on some of the images of the Toyota from testing, I can also clearly see additional diffusers in front of the rear wheels, though more on this later.
Regards,
Nick
We have a month of speculation ahead :) but let me to start a technical discussion (not a statistic and history analysis)...
Monte and Sweden are classified as special rallys with no real performance indication.
If monte conidions are 2017 like reason is simple; there is never enough grip under tires so car can't perform at its "working ability".
In Sweden it is not so obvious to me. Special snow tires gives grip that can be compared with the one on gravel. Gravel roads under the snow are diverse, from fast and flowing to narrow, "cresty", camber changing and even rough. If there are big snowbanks driving style can be different, otherwise driving is quite similar to gravel. In the past when tires were super narrow and rims were bigger, tire dynamic may be different, but with 15" rims I can imagine that tires perform similar to gravel ones. So I can't find a obvious reason why fast snow car would not be a also a fast gravel car. (again not talking about drivers, used to snow or not and snowbanks leaning driving)
Let me hear your opinion...
Pse keep em comingQuote:
Originally Posted by NickRally
Thanks OldF, but I can't view it, restriction on being viewed from outside Finland.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
Regards,
Nick
Couple of other thoughts after my first post on aero:
1. Double diffuser on the Ford – it was mentioned on this forum and also such thought crossed my mind when I first saw the Fiesta small diffuser at the launch. I thought there was no way that was all the diffuser they have designed in and it also appeared like the original road car “diffuser” on top is used as an additional extraction device, though it wasn’t clear where on the underfloor this particular air would have been taken from, even though there are plenty of openings on the underside as it would appear. Nevertheless looking at images a bit later on, I couldn’t see an air passage between the dedicated WRC diffuser and the road car one so I discarded that thought, but once again none of the images I have seen so far is clear enough to say for certain what’s what and I haven’t seen one in person. Maybe people that have seen the real car with their own eyes can comment?
2. The technical analysis thread itself – there are a lot of sub-threads in it and it feels very fragmented and inconsistent, jumping from one subject to another. I understand why this is, as until recently rally car technical analysis wasn’t a massive subject with little year on year car development (relative to other forms of motorsport) so a single technical thread was enough. But now with the new cars there is a lot that can be said, so there may be justification to split the technical analysis thread into individual threads dealing with engine, mechanical chassis, aero chassis, on stage performance and so on. On the other hand I can of course see an argument for the opposite with technical threads appearing on all sorts of subject and ending up with many, clogging the forum. So not sure what the best compromise is, just pondering ideas. If people are happy to keep just the single thread in existence, I am sure I would be able to “deal” with it :).
Regards,
Nick
I was afraid that could be the case. I made few “print screens” of the diffuser from the video. Hope it helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by NickRally
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...psyewl16ch.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...psukaxi7pt.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...psqchxbaoc.jpg
Compare 1:31 and 2:46
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nImA9omDSrQ&app=desktop
put it in slow motion to see better and look front wheels.
Is it suspension settings or downforce? I have felling that sunday was actually first time Latvala was pushing 100 %, before that he was driving at "sensible 98 %" avoiding stupidities.
I d like to see a video from this point from previous years,(if the stage run at 2016)Quote:
Originally Posted by J_n_z
I tend to agree with J_n_z on both points.Quote:
Originally Posted by J_n_z
The Fiesta and the Yaris differ in the way they negotiate this piece of road and I won't be surprised at all if it is due to the downforce levels difference between the two cars rather than the suspension settings, especially at these speeds.
And second, it certainly feels like Latvala finally showed what they can do together with the car on the final day.
Here is the next instalment of my aero analysis, this time it is Yaris’ turn.
2. Toyota Yaris
I will first upload the images, which in many instances are self-explanatory and will follow with the comments later, once again as and when I find the time.
Regards,
Nick
Attachment 1237
Attachment 1238
Attachment 1239
Attachment 1240
Attachment 1241
Quick question. Is it optical illusion, or the pedals have gone upwards, almost lining up with the driver's seat? Is this regulated, or is just driver's preference?
Regarding double diffuser. I don't really think it is double. I was reading this book about aeordynamics (by Simon McBeath) and CFD analysis shows that efficient angle of diffuser is somewhere between 8-12 degrees. Now 8 degrees is quite shallow, any road car has this angle. And, as I understand primary function of diffuser is to balance downforce between front and rear (same as rake). So in Fiesta case it could be that front-end has enough downforce thus large difusser angle is not needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by NickRally
Hi Marcco, the 8-10deg diffuser angle quoted was applicable to the flat bottom formula cars of the early 90's and it changed (the optimal angle got bigger) with the change in the rules specifying stepped floors for the F1 cars (that's pretty much what I do for living). As a general rule of thumb, the higher the distance between the floor of the car and the road, the higher the optimal diffuser angle. Also if we accept the theory that the diffuser will add equal amounts of downforce to both axles of the car (which probably wouldn't be the case with a bit more going to the rear being more probable), then higher diffuser angle than the one on the Fiesta would look more appropriate.
Regarding the double diffuser, the only way it won't be doable is if the rules do not allow it (for one reason or another), otherwise there is no stopping the creativity of the designers.
Regards,
Nick
I like this...Quote:
Originally Posted by NickRally
@ Yaris: You didn't mentioned Yaris "nose up" floor design.
Look:
https://www.google.si/imgres?imgurl=...:&vet=1&w=1280
https://www.google.si/imgres?imgurl=...:&vet=1&w=1280
https://www.google.si/imgres?imgurl=...M:&vet=1&w=640
http://cdn-9.motorsport.com/images/m...ota-racing.jpg
https://www.google.si/imgres?imgurl=...M:&vet=1&w=790
It looks like it is purposefully made to receive air under the floor... ground effect in mind.
I see the "side skirts" diffusers looks like a clever trick, but I don't understand why the front part of the skirts is cut away, is there aerodynamic purpose or a mechanic (rocks flying) one.
@ general underfloor aero: I think, we can not be sure that floor generated downforce is a vital part of car performance. Hyundai rear suspension cover were floating massively. As far as I can understand this should kill all floor aero performance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwyGvSPtgJ8 (0:41 to 0:47)
For the guy who wanted the bottom of the car
http://www.ewrc.cz/ewrc/image_browse.php?id=339519
also can be seen the destroyed aero before the rear tyre, wonder how it happened
Anyone know what the black boxes at the top of the fenders where the bumper is attached is?
http://www.ewrc-results.com/image.ph...&entry=0&car=0
Good video for tech analysis:
https://youtu.be/RfTeBPXkTps
Before I have forgotten again:
mozesii - thanks for the appreciation.
OldF - great images, thanks, as you would have already seen, I have put them to good use.
SlowSon - thanks, good photo.
jparker - thanks, I will have a look.
J_n_z - thanks.
On a crcuit racer the answer to the question you asked without a doubt would be yes to a raised centre section of a front splitter. On a rally car with its higher ground clearance the effect will be less pronounced, but I suppose (short of this being done to simply increase the ground clearance in the middle of the vehicle to go over road obstacles) it can still help.
The side tunnels on the Yaris - if I was doing it, then my reasoning for moving the leading edge rearward would be to ensure that the tunnels get a slightly cleaner air away from the front wheels and in general increase the mass flow of air to them rather than being shadowed by the front wheels too much.
The importance of aero on a rally car - you are most likely correct about the Hyundai's flapping suspension guards, but that is why I like the rally cars, aero is not king (in massive difference to F1), the mechanical side is of utmost importance. At the same time, with the new rules, aero becomes more and more important without overshadowing the other engineering sides and whoever gets to do the best job on all design fronts will end up with the fastest car overall.
Regards,
Nick
Thanks for doing a serious aero analysis a la Mulsanne's Corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by NickRally
It's interesting to see all the different solutions being tried by the teams because of the current freedom in the rules!
I had mentioned the double diffuser in another thread. It's hard to validate, but if they are using it as such, the air has to come from somewhere? The M-Sport diffuser is very shallow compared to the others. Could it be as or more efficient than the others? Time will tell, we will see who copies who! As a matter of fact, are aero changes allowed during the season or is everything pretty much homologated for the whole season?Quote:
Originally Posted by NickRally
Thanks again jparker, it is amusing to see how it never occurs to them to point the camera to the underside, which is where a lot of the interesting aero stuff takes place. Of course this is understandable considering that floors so far have not been massive differentiator in performance, but with the new rules, who knows. Funnily though, the Hyundai (the car in the video) has one of the roughest undersides if some of the distant images I have seen are anything to go by.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker