I understand but is the Maxi rally the formula for replacing N4 if the price is close to R5? I don't think so (unless of course the cars are a lot cheaper than what we talk about).
Printable View
I understand but is the Maxi rally the formula for replacing N4 if the price is close to R5? I don't think so (unless of course the cars are a lot cheaper than what we talk about).
if the n5 cant much the r5,and they drive them just for fun,why to dont drive n4 with 1/4 of their purchase cost,and the rest money to compete for 3-4 years?
I dont think that n5 as they are now they have feature at Europe.
Another point is which would be the price of this car as 2nd hand.Maybe an r5 is not so expensive..
Pros and cons with different solutions. What I would like is to have the possibility to build a car locally which has an international homologation with the price and running cost of a N4 car.
With lower price than R5 cars the performance should also be lower but there can always be two different championship for R5 and N4 level cars.
I once posted an example of a season (2007) cost in FCR and here it’s again. If you compare the total season cost to the difference of the price of cars (if it’s 50 000 €) it’s less than for one season. Note that rallies in FRC are not long and most of them are only during one day.
Rallying costs:
Entry fees 3200 € (á 400 €. 1 two day rally, 6 one day rally)
Accommodations 2340 € (á 90 € * 26)
Travelling 560 € (á 80 € * 7)
Food (á 120 € * 7)
Racing fuel / litre 6,20 € * 1000 l = 6200 €
Diesel (for transporting of the car etc.) á 100 € * 7 = 700 €
Tyres, winter 345 € * 30 = 10350 €
Tyres, summer 245 € * 30 = 7350 €
Insurance 2500 € * 7 = 17500 €
Accessories, spare parts etc. 2500 €
Total = 51540 € (64,7 %)
Testing costs:
Racing fuel 6,20 € * 400 = 2480 €
Tyres 1500 € (Usually with used tyres)
Set up work, lunch, payment for test road, permission fee etc.
Total = 7480 € (9,4 %)
General expenses:
Traffic + transporting insurance 750 €
Tools and small accessories 2500 €
Clothes 500 €
Ads + marketing materials 1500 €
Total = 6750 € (8,5 %)
Maintenance costs:
Rally-specific costs 350 € * 7 = 2450 € (wear parts, cost doesn’t include own work)
Seasonal maintenance 1: 3500 € (Maintenance of transmission, dampers and turbo. Cost doesn’t include own work)
Seasonal maintenance 2: 6500 € (Maintenance of engine, transmission, dampers and turbo. Cost doesn’t include own work)
Repair of equipments etc. 1500 € (Cost doesn’t include own work)
Total = 13950 € (17,5 %)
Total season costs = 79720 €
The price difference is probably over 50.000€. Taking the 175k mid value estimation for a MR puts their price at 160.000€ (very similar to brand new top spec N4), and enlarges the difference to 70.000€. 50 is really worst case scenario.
As Sulland said, these rules shoud be articulated between countries. I believe that as more european ASN's follows the spanish example, FIA will be obligue to allow N5/MR in Europe and unify their rules.
Lets see on N5 prices, speed and durability in Spain for a year and see if this is the way forward for the new N4 (5)!
First lets see if anyone here have exact prices of MR cars and parts? It's really interesting...
And I'm 100% sure FIA will never accept MR/N5 cars only because there will be a lot of them in local championships...:-(
Autohebdo talked a few years ago than FIA was looking forward MR cars. But since, nothing has been done ...
About MR, I'm wondering how much these cars cost.
Because, if you look at other South American countries, you can see these cars aren't popular at all there.
- Paraguay : one MR, but most of the top crews are using R5 / S2000 / N4
- Bolivia : no MR. The rich guys have protos from Poland, and I think some N5 from Vidal (VW).
- Brasil : 2 MR. One running only in Argentina, and another slow. Their XRC project is still running, but only 3 or 4 exists.
- Uruguay : N4 only, no MR
- Chile : is looking to FIA categories only, with manufacturer support in R3. I think R5 will appear soon ... 2017 ?
- Peru : no MR neither, only N4.
So let them stay as national classes! If they can work as a affordable recruiting class into the international arena, they will be perfect!Quote:
Originally Posted by br21
AP 4 Mazda shakedown so not at comptetion pace. Mazda turbo engine with sadev sequential transmission (heavy duty rallycross transverse model) and good brakes.
https://www.facebook.com/Holder-Brot...8636160829964/
As I said earlier, Paraguay is a bit of a particular case because they can import without paying a lot of taxes and there is a lot of money invested in rallying over there.I don't know about specific regulations in Uruguay and don't know if MR are allowed there. Besides, they have some laws regarding importation of cars that allow them to bring in a car for a couple of years and after that they either pay all the taxes or send them back. So they usually run the car for two years and after that send it back out of the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by vino_93
In Peru I think they don't have a lot of problems importing cars, I think there is a lack of money to bring R5 or MR cars.
Chile follows FIA rules, but there was a rumor that MR would be running there soon.
Brasil has the problem of taxes and also lack of money for rallying.
Maybe the problem isn't in their cost but at the way local ASN's are making regs reform.Quote:
Originally Posted by vino_93
Only in Argentina and Brasil MR were really promoted as the rally top class, but in Brasil's case that option was somehow undermined by XRC tech choices (it came with a heavy 3.6 V6 and are made by the company of the running champ, Mauricio Neves). Bolivia has an open proto class (Dytko protos are dominant but I believe an MR Fiesta was lately imported) and Peru rally scene seems a mixture of rally and cross country events, with no place for modern rally cars. Uruguay is still finding the way to replace N4, while Paraguay introduced FIA regs (R5/S2000) and Chile also uses FIA regs but emphases renovation into R2/R3 cars.
MR success depends on the ability of national turners build them locally. That's the best way to keep them cheap, as the Argentines has managed to prove.
MR Argentina action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB6ODEv6PEk
Neves 207 XRC:
https://youtu.be/phfWeVA7dUk?t=262
from other vids it looks like it uses same transmission (gbox & diff) like Fiesta R5, also suspension parts looks very, very similar. Good parts, but I can't find room there for saving the costs comparing to R5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeakiwi
Teemu / Rallirinki @HartusvuoriWRC 43m43 minutes ago
FIA rallying director Jarmo Mahonen says in newspaper interview FIA will introduce an all-new 4WD kit car class in March. @ksmlfi
Teemu / Rallirinki @HartusvuoriWRC 42m42 minutes ago
New cars will be 4WD, 300hp, around €120 000, running costs half from R5s. It'll be a kit ready for "any car". They'll run already this year
Unless I've missed something earlier in this thread what is the point of this new category? 4WD and 300hp sounds similar to R5. So why, when clearly R5 is not about to be replaced, create something cheaper than R5 but at the same level?
I think it is what was mentioned in some other thread: the need of a 4wd class in between a 2wd class and R5. Going from a R2 or R3 direclty to a R5 can be a huge step, either from a sporting view or from a financial point of view.
I think this is something really good for National championships, a better car than a N4, you can get a car from anyone that not have a car ready.
Of course it will never be R5 speed, but its close and can do good in the right drivers, and builders, behind the steeringwheel.
Spanish N5’s cars (Maxi Rally) already on the road:
Suzuki Swift prepared by AR Vidal - https://youtu.be/TxQYMInLqKs
Peugeot 208 prepared by RMC - https://www.facebook.com/88504350818...type=2&theater
The 208 has done a sprint rally as 0 car and is expected to run in next gravel champ rally. The Swift will be doing more tests before entering tarmac series.
What are the tech data for the N5 Suzuki?
- Engine caracteristics
- 4 wd system
- suspension and undertray
- price
N5 rules are based in Maxi Rally regs, keeping MR major features: rally purpose built bodies from wide range of makes/models, using control chassis kits, 4wd transmission with a 6 speed sequential gearbox (based on Subaru parts) and the new 1.6T engine from PSA (CDT block).
But N5 are also allowed to use a Mitsubishi Evo engine as an option (downsized to 1.6l) and the control parts kit is less restricted than MR’s. Authorized local tuners can choose from a wider range of components, as only sub frame chassis, suspension arms and mountings, half-axles, gearbox housing and the turbo came from Baratec kit (PK parts).
After the Porsche restrictor mess, RFEA (local ASN) revised N5’s restrictor size. They’ll use 34mm (instead of the original 32), keeping 2.5 bar and 1230kg. The list of authorized Spanish tuners wasn’t yet published. For now, RMC and ARVidal are the only ones and N5 price still’s a secret (has been rumored to be around €150.000).
N5 regs link: https://www.rfeda.es/documents/20185...b-73fb1e04a99c
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChehUexWwAAPiVP.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbbMlGsWAAADIOl.jpg
Sounds somewhat similar to the AP4 regulations. Maybe the FIA will eventually take notice of these things and it could become recognised worldwide... Mind you I am sure there would be an FIA approval tax which would make them as expensive as R5 then!
And kit parts only allowed to be bought from FIA stakeholders like VW and PSA? :\\Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkvy
So basically the cost of them are more or less the same of the N4+ that races in Spain. Mind that a used R5 will cost the same, and you can use it everywhere, and in international events, etc etc. RFEDA push this regs to atract some new manufacters that don't have R5, but this it's not their salvation. Probably you'll see a Mirage N5 along the way as well, but I don't think that makes like Seat f.e. will be in the championship anytime soon...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
The new Kit category only makes sense if local private tuners get involved. For overpriced rally cars built by manus there's already R5 and WRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
Yes, that was my point. Maybe my sarcasm about FIA was a bit too subtle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Well done! Pons won in RMC’s 208 N5/MR debut on Spanish gravel series, ahead of Villanueva DS3 R5 and Aldecoa Fiesta R5+. The Citroen guy lead until transmission problems slow him down, but Pons was close from the start, sharing stages wins all rally long.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CibmYgsXIAALoyX.jpg
Photo: @RMCMotorsport
Spanish tuners continue N5/MR tarmac development. RMC entered their 208 as 0 car on a local event and ARVidal were testing the Swift in Portugal.
https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...b1&oe=57D7FF8A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xUt...https://yhttps
3 or 5 doors..?
Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk
I think that one in the picture is the Baratec built car, which is based on the 5 door model available in Argentina. In these cars, the rear doors aren't used, there is no way of opening them.
But I've seen some news recently that the Spanish team is building a 3-door model with the same specs.
Yep. 208 2 door on his way and plans to make also a N5/MR based on a Fiesta body.
https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...b8&oe=57DCB79F
This weekend's Rally Catamarca (fourth round of Argentina National Championship and third round of FIA Codasur Championship) will be a good opportunity to compare the new Maxi Rally turbo with the R5.
Gustavo Saba and Diego Dominguez will be there and Luciano Pretoria and Geronimo Padilla (two good Argentine drivers) will be there with the MR turbo.
Just to clearify for my self.
The main point with this R4 category is that anyone can build a car "at home" with standard mandatory parts?
Mainly for National championship?
Yes, if you meant “at home” as private local tuners. The international homologation may happen if FIA decides to introduce officially R4 in Europe and in other regions. It seems there’s a will to do it, but for now only some ASN’s are using R4 related rules (under different names: N5; MR; AP4) on their national championships.
Co-driven: any results from Catamarca? What's the restrictor size for MR Turbo?
I´d say that results were good, but the MR turbo is still a bit behind the R5 cars. Luciano Preto rolled on the first day, but the overal winner among the Argentine drivers was Geronimo Padilla with a Ford Fiesta MR turbo, from Baratec. He was more than a minute faster than his fellow countryman with the NA MR cars. And he was around a minute behind Gustavo Saba, the winner of the event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
The results are a bit hard to compare, because the MR turbo don´t appear on the Codasur results (I don´t know the reason for that, maybe because they aren´t homologated yet). The MR turbo is competing only as an guest driver, so although Padilla won the event in the National Championship, he didn´t receive trophy for that.
But the results can be found here:
http://www.acryr.com.ar/tiempos/2016...catamarca/MENU (Codasur)
http://www.rallyargentino.org.ar.php...ARGFIN_ET2.HTM (Rally Argentino)
Sorry, but I don´t know the exact dimension of the restrictor.
A sales price of 150 000 euro seems high, if a year old R5 cost around 180 000.
A Dytko cost aprox 50 000, with same engines, but not sure of differences on the rest of the car.
But 150 000 seems steep!
Where is the prices?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
Is it a complete car then?
How much does the parts costs, It is some standard parts to use?
The dytko is a example how it should be, a more pricevalued car for National championships.
How fast is it compared to a R5?
According to Spanish ASN (RFEDA) rules, each N5 car is homologated individually and the owner of the car is the owner of the homologation form. A N5 can be built using the mandatory kit (available from certified suppliers) and all the other parts mentioned in the regs (including a rally purpose build body, coming from a certified tuner). Parts are classified as PK (those included in the mandatory kit); PH (homologated parts with free origin); PL (special parts without homologation); PS (original parts from the base model). Alternatively a fully assembled model can be bought from certified tuners but must be also individually homologated. Because this is the first year of this new category, the certified kit suppliers and body tuners list it’s not yet available. Only two tuners (RMC and ARVidal) are for now authorized and the kit comes from Baratec. There are no confirmed prices yet, but the € 150.000 number for a complete car was talked some time ago by people close to one of the tuners.
N5 Overall description: https://www.rfeda.es/documents/20185...7-1b818248e8fc
N5 Technical regulation: https://www.rfeda.es/documents/20185...b-73fb1e04a99c
That sounds completely unreal. 50 thousand is less than R2...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
When do we see the first fia homologated cars with the new approved r4 kit?
Who is making them?
Curious to see the price of these kits...