Or none. Why they need to pay for a drive and then when thry want to show something no one notice that, or next time expect that they will also pay...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
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Or none. Why they need to pay for a drive and then when thry want to show something no one notice that, or next time expect that they will also pay...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Money counts...
The dilemma of paying drivers in one sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
Exactly, and this generation of WRC car is worse because they are so expensive to run. With all the aero pieces etc, you could easily smash your budget to pieces without actually crashing the car, just knocking bits off....so if the budget is limited, or the result is already lost after the first day, then I would imagine the natural inclination will be to not push to the maximum...and by not pushing what have you proved?Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Even R5 is expensive if you have to pay for a drive. Paddon was asked why he isn't just doing WRC2 this year and replied about needing something like a million dollars to pay for it.
A short interview with Walter Rörhl https://www.goodwood.com/grrc/column...mans-and-cars/
Well not sure his idea about difs is good.
On the other hand as we discussed before I am for limiting the number of possible settings, which in turn would limit the need/usefulness of testing and reduce costs.
It was mentioned recently that VW had 20 different dampers for Polo and Hyundai now has 50 to pick from. Both numbers sound crazy to me.
So many years and failed attempts have passed and yet still someone believes that it's possible to reduce the championship cost by technical regulations.
I tell you one thing. The championship cost is a mirror of its own value. The better the championship is the more the teams can spend and the worse it is the less they spend. It's that simple and the technical regulations have very little to do with it.
Could not agree more, those who have the money will always find areas to spend it on for achieving better results, regardless of whatever limitations FIA or anyone else can come up withQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
That's the problem with R5... cheap enough for the businessman or his kid but not cheap enough for the young prospect.
Most national rally entries now have a couple of fast driver's and a load of guys just having fun as a hobby.
R4 anyone ?
You can't reduce the amount of money people want to spend, but you can reduce the amount of money that is needed to build a competitive car and race it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
But most of the easy solutions have already been implemented. Outlawing exotic materials, limitations on testing and tyres, no mobile service, ...
If msport can do it with a limited budget, others can do it too. They just choose not to.
R5 is something completely different because it is not the top level of the sport. Whatever else than WRC works in a different way because it's not a battle of gigantic global companies which can spend whatever is worth it. In fact in case of R5 the rules really managed to successfully limit the cost and moreover to keep it for many years (in this case it's a huge achievement of FIA).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I'd say that R5 works perfectly. There are tons of them everywhere including UK and it's more and more of them every year. Motorsport has always been about money and will always be. You can't create a situation in this sport where money plays no role. If You want to see where people with zero money can get on the top level follow football. It works there.
R4 will likely never work in Europe. For being a competitor for R5 they are too slow and for being a healthy second level they are too expensive.
Pryce proved in Granada that R4 cars can be fast and they're actually cheaper than a R5 (to buy and, especially, to mantain). Some guys may be tempted to use them if they are allowed to run on a separated class from R5's. Besides, they also can motivate big dealers and even importers of brands with no rally cars currently homologated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
R4 has potencial, even in Europe, but somehow Oreca doesn't seem eager to promote it: despite being homologated since June, the only R4 entry (Granada) was due to their spanish partner, ASM Team...
Wishful thinking. We can speak about it again next year by this time.
Of course they are cheaper but they are not cheaper enough. Old R5 are even cheaper and nobody buys them. Guess why? Because they are slow. That's the simple reason. Why do you think everybody buys Polo R5 like crazy no matter what it costs? Because it's fast car and that's what motorsport is about. Not about saving 10% or 20% for having a handicap right from the start line.
You’re missing a point: if R4’s run on a separated class from R5’s, they don’t need to be as fast as those! Guys with a lower budget will prefer to fight for a R4 class win than struggling to stand up in the middle of 15 or 20 R5’s.
You should look here http://www.rmcmotorsport.es/ to see how the Spanish tuner RMC is promoting N5 (similar to R4) in Spain. N5 is based on Argentina’s Maxi Rally (actually RMC imports a large number of parts from Baratec) and despite being slower than a R5 and having only national homologation it’s selling pretty well, once they’re cheaper and run on a separated class from R5’s; besides RMC is doing a proper job promoting them (there’s even a national N5 Cup).
Everybody recognizes that there’s room for a lower 4wd class and it’d be much more interesting to see it spreading as an international FIA category, in R4 form, than having each country trying their own national proto class, like it’s now starting to happen.
You need R4 classes in top levels, to create somekind of a market and use for them. For nationals it`s too expensive, those who have the money, go for a R5 or even WRC, those with less use A`s/N`s, modify them to protos etc or drive less and do it with a (rental) R5 ...and drive faster and fight for overall places.
No, I don't miss anything. If they are intended for their own lower class than they must be way cheaper than they are. What you say is that R4 is basically an overpriced gr.N replacement. But that alone is a receipt for disaster. The reason is simple - the amount of money available very much depends on where you are on the overall standings. Good luck with finding sponsors who can fund you let's say 80% of R5 budget but don't care about overall results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Exaggerating: so the R4 guys will take all the sponsorship money away from R2 drivers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
No No No, you don't understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
The point is, that you will need a lot of budget to fight for "only" a class win. Overall you can't do much. It's easier to find a bit more money if you can challenge for overall win.
Fe, let's say you need 100.000 for a program with an R5 car and 75.000 for the same program with an R4. It will be easier to find that 100.000 as you challenge for the overall win. You get much more return than for a class win.
That's the reason R3 is dead. Too expensive and you only fight for class win. R4 will be even more expensive, so I think Mirek is right.
The price difference isn’t just 20%, it’s about 30% (Oreca made a discount over the kit initial price) and that’s a lot of money. A R4 can be bought for 160k while a R5 costs over 230k (I bet a Polo costs much more…); running costs difference is even bigger as R4 engine is almost stock and once the cars are built locally there’s no need for expensive rebuilds on the manu official tuners, like in R5. Besides, we shouldn’t mix R4/R5 target costumers; R5 will always be used by top national and international drivers and teams, while R4 purpose is to give amateurs a change to replace their aging N4 cars and also provide R2 young drivers a more affordable option to keep their careers moving forwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
There’s a market for R4, both in national and international series, but the FIA has made a terrible choice launching R4 through a single supplier; after all the delays and the kit initial price, Oreca is still failing to promote R4 in a proper way. That’s a shame.
In Finland this is different, we don't have overall points or championships, but four equal championships for different types of cars. Even when the rallies were televisioned on a national channel, all the classes were shown equally from home-built FWD Civics to the Fabia R5's.Quote:
Originally Posted by dupanton
Polo can not cost more than other R5 cars because of the rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Complete R4 car shall cost between 180-190k (per Oreca).
We can absolutely mix R4 and R5 target customers because they are in the same cost group. Look at the teams competing today and tell me who can buy R4 right now? Only the teams running R5 car can, no teams with gr.N, R3 or R2 cars can do that without massive raise of budget.
Those 30% may be a lot in absolute numbers but as Anton said it's likely easier to find extra 30% for a project in the top level than 30% less for something so obscure as a certain class (that's how most of potential sponsors naturally see it - because they go after exposure). In other words it's for sure easier to find money for second hand R5 than for new R4. And there are tons of used R5 everywhere.
R4 is a good idea for overseas markets with high import duties for R5 cars. The potential market in Europe is very small, it will likely end similar to R-GT. You will meet them here and there but they will never become anything important.
But maybe I am wrong. We'll see.
If someone has good R4 for sale for 160k let me know, I will buy!
Top spec Polo costs around 230k, VW can't charge more as it's (well) controlled by the FIA.
Do you really? Sincerely asking, not saying you'd be right or wrong. Not that I would have a strong opinion of my own on the subject, but I assume that these days the exposure driver/car/sponsor gets, is somewhat dependent on self-marketing and using all available channels to increase brand awareness (or whatever the sponsor is seeking from the sponsorship deal, usually sponsorship - on the level we're talking about here - is about brand awareness). I.e. it's less and less about having the picture of the overall winner in a newspaper and more about being able to win (or to fight for the victory). And in that sense I doubt that the 100k would be "easier" to get for R5 campaign than the 75k for R4 campaign. Assuming that these two classes are equal competition wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by dupanton
For the Belgian Championship, there is a television report of each round, sunday afternoon, on the public television channel. They basically only showed the R5 cars. 2 or 3 images of the Junior winner and 3 other cars who won their classes for a short flash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
I'm sure the success of the Belgian championship is due to the television coverage.
If I see who can get a budget together for a top car now, I'm sure it's "relatively" easy. It's still a lot of money off course.
Rally culture is different from country to country. In Belgium most drivers don't care much about social media, they don't have any own capital to drive an R5 car, and still they manage to bring the money together for it. I think the picture of overall winner in newspaper and on tv still counts, very much! Also in Belgium many (if not most) of the spectators are interested in the top crews only, and go from stage to stage following the top 15-20 drivers. ;)
Here as well the media exposure of gr.N drivers is close to non existent. Juniors in R2 cars have much more media exposure than them and that is still only a fraction of what R5 drivers get. Also on the rally servers and forums you can see that people are interested in the overall standings and in the juniors and basically nothing else. Same goes to ERC2. Nobody cares about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by dupanton
I actually remember reading an interview of an i20 R5 buyer saying a full spec new car was costing 250k (at the start of 2018).Quote:
Originally Posted by br21
That was Oreca initial estimation, before the kit price reduction. A finished car costs now around 160k; you can confirm it with ASM here https://r4rallycars.com/Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
According to your logic of only using top machines, what’s the point of running an old 208 or a first spec used Fiesta? Actually, as not everybody is aiming for the top 10 and there’s no alternative to N4, some amateurs are tempted to get a used R5, but repair or rebuilding costs may soon turn their R5 adventure into a nightmare (I know a few cases).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Honestly I can’t understand why so many people here are against a new category that could bring more drivers and even new brands to the sport. I see R4 as a needed complement to the current rally classes, not as a threat to the existing categories.
Unfortunately, without a better clarification of the rules by the FIA or the local ASN’s and a proper promotion from Oreca and their partners R4 may fail, as it seems hard to get new costumers in the current uncertainty; people won’t probably spent 160k for a car without having more clues about its future.
mate its not his logic,its the reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
We are not against,how could be to be against?,but its not going to work.
Costs are very close to the r5 category
there is no room for 2 different very close performance classes at most countries.
so top drivers will go for r5=no interesting for r4 class for drivers,and spectators sponsors etc
And it's actually the same story like with R-GT. People also believed that it would work based on the very same arguments. It will be fun to drive, cheaper than R5 to run etc. Is it fun to drive? Yes. Is it cheaper than R5 to run? Yes. Does it work? No. Why? Because it's not competitive enough to justify its price.
Young drivers grow in R2 class. R5 will be the step, just as Dimviii says.
On a national level they can grow in old N4 cars...
To me the problem is to have new drivers come in to the sport.
Simple one make cups in R1 class should be much more high-lighted.
I've read here many times that there was no point on runing older machines against the most recent ones. Why suddenly used R5's make total sense?Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
I agree that R4 may fail, but not for having close costs to R5, as those aren't so close as people are trying to suggest here.
Sadly, Oreca seems more interested in promoting their Le Mans racing protos than R4 rally cars and private R4 tuners are now a bit on their own, while the FIA, as usual, is washing their hands of it. Anyway, fingers still crossed for R4!
Even r2 is way too expensive for many starting drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
The fia should indeed create and promote a controlled one make cup with cars that cost less than 25.000€. With as many standard parts as possible and sealed engines and gearboxes.
R1 cars have a good price, but have way too less power to be attractive. What we need is something like the twingo r1, but with 180 or 200 horsepower instead of 130.
Why? The best starter car for me is the Opel Adam Cup which is in fact de-tuned R2 with stock 140 Hp engine and it absolutely works as Huttunen or Bergkvist show.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Why it works? Because it's easy car to drive and in the same time very close to the R2 (same base car, same gearbox etc.), i.e. it's very easy to step up from the cup car to the R2. The fact that it's using stock engine is the reason why it's cheap.
Yes, Adam surely good. But I´m talking on national level, not international or European level. Juniors/beginners always starts in their home country. It´s on national level there should be R1 cars or like in Sweden Group E/F. Everyone starts somewhere. But surely not even in an Adam Cup car. Costs for Adam? Not under 30000 Euros I guess ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Being uncompetitive is really just down to FIA choosing to cripple it with regulations to stop it challenging R5 though isn't it... so saying R5 is better because RGT isn't competitive is just circular reasoning. R5 is favoured because its faster and its faster because its favoured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
R1 is also quite expensive i bet... Older cars, built buy oneself in order to get the hang of it. In many countries even a roadcar can do the trick. There are also cup cars, that are cheap to build and maintain...not the best solutions however, but again, for a first car, why not.
Logan cup for example, if it still exists, cost around 15k i believe, with a a new car from the dealership.
Big flat strong statements invite questions. A) always about money? B) why is the word "sport" in the word? MotorsportQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
I think American conservatives who think that all discussion is 7th Grade Debate club would say that is a False Red Straw Herring...Nobody has suggested that there needs to be a situation where money plays no role.Quote:
You can't create a situation in this sport where money plays no role.
Some people might be suggesting that its the role of the various ASNs ---who represent to overwhelming majority of people doing rally as a sport to try and find ways to moderate the role of sheer unlimited expenditure of money as being THE decisive factor is deciding results...so as to retain some element of sport.
at least in football you can be fairly certain that whoever wins was "the best" team/people/person...That day.Quote:
If You want to see where people with zero money can get on the top level follow football. It works there.
Yes, that's true...Quote:
R4 will likely never work in Europe. For being a competitor for R5 they are too slow and for being a healthy second level they are too expensive.
makes total sense vs an R4 car due to same +- costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
another problem we havent mention if i remember correct, is that if you are for example at Spain,Italy,Portugal,Finland,GB,France and running a R4 car,you havent got a chance/car at yours country wrc round, to compare/be competetive with wrc2 drivers.
Another reason is the much less money will cost this car due to less buy demand worldwide.
Another reason is if these cars have some developments ''problems'' are these builders capable to solve the problems?
The last one dont take it as a small ''problem'' We have seen various such cases from wrc level teams.
Couldn't agree more. Current technology level is not enough for the restrictions over RGT class.Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen