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I'm torn on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
On the one hand, employing local drivers to share test data would cost a lot of money and everyone is crying out to lower the expenses.
On the other hand, guys like Østberg have a severe disadvantage because the factory is not sharing data with him. I suppose being able to test outside of Europe still leaves him less prepared compared to the factory teams.
If he wants to play in the same competition as the 'factory' teams he needs to comply with the same rules.
Whether or not the factory is sharing data with him to enable a competitive performance is a commercial matter between himself and the factory, not a concern of the rule makers.
The question is if we want competitive privateers in the WRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
If we do, then they need to be given a fighting chance.
While the factory teams have three drivers all doing testing duties, and test drivers, test cars , and can develop and test new parts etc etc, a team like JipoCar has one WRC17 car which they run in both tests and rallies, and really no possibilities to develop own parts, etc. So the factory teams has all the advantages, which of course the factory teams want. So the question is again, do we want competitive privateers in the WRC?
Right now we have four strong manufacturers, and the "crisis" years of two manufacturers and one dominating driver seem long but forgotten, but this is the scenario I think we need to keep in mind when we argue for or against these things.
Very well put Lundefaret.
+10Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundefaret
Spot on. Facory teams are pathetic with such complaints.
I think factory teams have too much rights - they basically owning championship - they don't want VW as private team, they don't want 16 rounds in championship, now they don't want extra strong (semi strong) competitors. It looks like nobody want to improve, but to stay in same level with few rivals. FIA should dictate rules to teams, not vice versa.
I think it's a stupid limit, but then again FIA basically decided against privateers when they started allowing WRC entries by factory teams only. If it wasn't for M-Sport, Østberg couldn't compete on his WRC17 car.
For M-Sport it's the only way to survive - be flexible. If they had strong Ford backing it could be different story..
Nope I didn't think it was by accident. However I just had my doubts that these two projects would make any sort of dent in the R5 market, and considering what a clusterfuck this Holzer project appears to be, I could be right. Unless you expect MEM to make the Proton a Ford/ Skoda/ C3, I20 beater?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Well yeah, they basically do - they're the ones paying for it anyway. Not exclusively, but they put more in than they get back.Quote:
Originally Posted by electroliquid
For sure WRC needs privateer's but let’s be clear: ’17 cars aren’t made for them.
The Privateer’s Cup for ’16 WRC cars seemed to be the best solution for private drivers wanting to use WRC cars, but sadly FIA managed to instantly spoil it by allowing privateer's to drive ’17 cars. Honestly I still believe that for safety reasons (and also for the Privateer’s Cup sake), ’17 WRC cars should only be used by top drivers with a Super License.
The new cars are also too expensive and technically too demanding to be run by private teams and the rational option for the wealthy privateer’s able to use them is to become a paying driver in a manu team, like Bertelli or Al Qassimi have been doing in different forms.
Ostberg choose to use Jipocar private structure and he’s having a hard time, but should the rules be more flexible for him because of that? Can the manus that sell ’17 cars to privateer's get access to extra data by having their costumers testing freely outside Europe? At least in theory, there’s no doubt that MSport could take advantage from that loophole; it makes perfect sense to fix it.
It was expected to happen - and I can understand why. However, they're missing the point, and not seeing the bigger picture. Sadly, the days of a privateer, or a local entrant turning up and challenging the top guys has long since past. Some people thought they had no business being in an event; but I thought it added an extra dimension to an event, and the series.
You're supposed to do that within WRC2, with R5 cars, WRC is only for professionals. When is the last time a privateer got to podium anyway? EDIT: Daniel Carlsson, 3rd in Sweden 2006?Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Good post. And I agree ... yes we want competitive privateers. But having separate regulations for privateer vs factory would open more of a can of worms than the imbalance you're trying to correct. And it wouldn't achieve any result anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundefaret
You'd have to go back to Group 4 days to find an era when privateers could truly be competitive with factory drivers and even then it was difficult.
There are a good many reasons for that.
Rally Power suggests that the privateers cup is the answer. I don't agree. We want as many privateers in the main game as possible. But they must play by the same rules or it become farcical.
A sad day for Rally.
Rally is the maverick of motorsport, and has always been.
It was the motorsport where you could buy a car from a tuner, or make it yourself. Then you could drive a world championship round or two if you wanted. The best could measure up to the "factory" cars. Fight with the best, have the fun of walking in the same depot, driving a MK2 Escort or later a Gr A car.
Then the money and factorys came in, and FIA now in the end took the possibility and a possible dream away from almost all rallydrivers.
The teams have also lost a free testpool.
Østberg have tested and probably found things, going his own way, that the factory team have not even thought of.
If a team can get sponsors to fund a car, have a driver that qualifies for a super licence, why not let them?
Is there something wrong with following their dream, fighting with the best in the maverick sport in the FIA family?
Or has that now become Rallycross?
I think Henning Solberg WRC Norway 2007 - 3rd but I could be mistaken... Anyway, yes looooong time ago!Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Have you forgoten that Østberg did the whole 2012 private with 3 podiums and started with a 2nd in Sweden. Bouffier 2nd in MC 2014. Not to mention several by Solberg from 2009-2011Quote:
Originally Posted by Luijbregts
And won Portugal! After a fuckup from Citroën.Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruNorway
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It’s not a question of what we want, it’s a question of what we have and currently we have a fantastic new range of WRC cars that are faster, more spectacular and safer than the previous ones. They’re what the sport needed to attract more fans and get more media coverage. There’s only one catch: these new cars are unaffordable for most privateers.Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
Is that enougth to fell sorry about the choice FIA and the manufacturers made on these exciting but exclusive new cars and continue to sadly regret that we are far away from the good old Gr.4 or Gr.A privateer friendly days? Come on, why can we just take the most of present WRC fantastic days, praising the manus that were brave enough to enter the sport and gave to the fans twelve fabulous cars, driven by the best drivers on the planet?!?
Ok, in the current context there’s little room for privateers using top cars; that’s why a Private Cup using ’16 less exclusive cars seems much more interesting than having only a couple of ultra rich and less talented private drivers (Ostberg is the exception) that can afford to run ’17 cars alongside works drivers.
I'll let you into a wee secret RP. Any WRC rally car is unaffordable for most privateers.
There's nothing wrong with a 2nd tier competition, if that's where you want to play. But that's quite a different thing to compelling anyone not on a factory payroll to play there or stay home.
Limiting the championship to factory drivers only? That's not rallying.
The factory teams are the backbone, and we now have a fantastic season.
But the number of factory teams go up and down, so the sport should have a "dialogue" with private teams.
Testing is one thing, but two other factors make the sport unnecessarily expensive for both factory teams and privateers.
1) Carbon parts:
On a rally car parts like front spoiler, side sills, rear spoiler and diffuser are something that are often replaced several times during a rally. These should by regulations be made cheaper, like having them in fibre glass in stead of carbon.
2) Engine:
Though we have seen an increase in HP, the WRC cars still don't have extreme power figures by any means. But still one engine costs a huge sum.
The same HP an nm could be made much, much cheaper, if regulated in another way.
I really like the 17 cars, and have also been lucky enough to have ridden in one, but think FIA should be more cost focussed also to attract more factory teams.
IMO WRX used to be like that but is now quickly heading towards WRC type of championship with factory teams dominating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
You're forgetting that there has been factory teams since the 60's. At first the world title was only for manufacturers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
And I'm pretty sure already the group A cars of the 90's weren't something you just bought, drove and competed with the factory boys. Instead you had buy an old factory car and have your own professional team.
Østberg and Solberg were old factory drivers who could easily buy a factory car and get sponsors by that point for their own professional rally team and Bouffier drove for M-Sport. But we're talking about someone new coming and making a result with a private car to impress the teams, something like Jarmo Kytölehto did in Finland 1996 and 1997 by being third on a private Escort, hasn't happened in a long time. Now, you'd drive an R5 car and make a good result in WRC2 to get noticed. Kind of what Suninen's doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruNorway
And there's the problem. WRC2 doesn't get enough press from anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
But R5 cars are still somewhat affordable for privateers. WRC17 are certainly not. If FIA would now open the competition for private entries in WRC class, we'd get just more Bertellis and Al-Qassimis cruising.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
And the team bosses do notice what's going on in WRC2. Jost Capito said he'd pick Suninen as his third driver if he would start a team now and could pick any three drivers (with the third being a new promising star), and Lappi got a seat for Toyota.
And if you look at the current works drivers, only Latvala and Østberg started their careers in private WRC cars , everybody else got a factory deal by driving well in S1600/S2000. And even Latvala drove mostly a group N Impreza in his starting years.
Sponsors don't care if something is affordable or not. They want the attention. WRC vs R5 in that terms is a hopeless fight. Unless someone manages to get an R5 close to the podium.
I don't understand why some people don't like slower privateers (except N.O.T, who has declared multiple times what he thinks of them). As some of the previous posts here have hinted, rallying isn't only about creme de la creme.
You mean Bertelli, Prokop et al. ? why couldn't they just drive WRC Trophy or WRC2 since they're not fighting for the win anyway? What bothers me with them is that they usually drive their own race, with no one to compete with. They're seconds a kilometre slower than the works guys. And if there's two of them, they're worlds away from each other in terms of skills or resources. One tries their best, one just cruises.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
EDIT: It's interesting that in Portugal, Prokop seemed to be on pace with the 4th-5th place guys in WRC2. Maybe next year private WRC2016 cars could contest for WRC2 points?
Answer this question. Would you buy a super/hyper car or a Dacia?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
The question is more like, would you buy a Ferrari or a BMW M3, the top of the line sports car or a more affordable sports car that's still not cheap. Yeah, if I had endless amount of money, of course I'd go for a Ferrari, but if that meant I'd spend the weekends driving it alone versus driving it with all my friends having BMW M3's as well, I'd go for the BMW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
I don`t think that the previous generation WRC €/SS (in a WRC event) is much cheaper than the current spec`s and those who have that kind of money want the best equipment. They are just enjoying themselves and don`t care about some "meaningless" trophy (they were cruising also before, just for fun). Citroen and Ford both need the money and if it means Bertelli`s and Sheikh`s cruising then let them cruise. Ostberg is good enough to add competition, though i wouldn`t see him taking a place from some fast drivers with no money so the current situation is the best.
Manfred Stohl made the podium on the three final events of 2006. Third in Australia and New Zealand and second in the UK. In a 307, no less.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
http://www.autosport.com/news/report...n-for-one-shot
Well that was kind of obvious, Citroen are thinking of Mikkelsen doing more, not just this one off.
Cant read the above but its also here: https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/...-italy-912885/Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
But it was the OMV team, at least semi-professional, they contested the whole season with two cars, different than some local trying out in a private car. Same as M-Sport and Stobart. Not factory teams, but not privateers by any means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregor-y
But their problem is that they've already agreed to give Lefevbre a full season of drives and Al-Qassimi fourth car drives as much as they have capacity...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
Then you "think" wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
The 17 cars are much more labour intensive to run.
How does "full season" for Lefevbre agree with the fact that he is not driving on Sardinia?
The OMV team is a very good example of a private team, making up for the lack of factory entries. The rules should be made so that the privateers stand a fair chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
How and what is up to the FIA, but privateer teams have been an important part of the WRC, all the way from David Sutton winning the championship, through the Jolly Clubs, the Bozians, the OMVs, the Mads Østbergs and Petter Solbergs, etc etc.
So it needs to be a good balance. What this balance is exactly needs to be discussed. :)