I hope it is a new constructor, but maybe we have lost in translation / misunderstanding here and it's "just" another "tuner"
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I hope it is a new constructor, but maybe we have lost in translation / misunderstanding here and it's "just" another "tuner"
If someone had posted this here first instead of Reddit, would you have accepted it then, or what do you mean? The OP is just a rally fan and simply shared potentially important information that was shared in their local media and hasn't been "picked up" by anyone yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
I'm just as sceptical with anything posted here by anybody. Some things are more believable than others but I generally don't accept anything until it comes from the source.
I've since seen something on autosport.pt with Carlos Barbosa, allegedly pulled from the same RTP interview. That's the same autosport.pt that parroted the Lancia 2027 story from Rallyssimo's private conversation the other week - which no other media chose to run. This time Barbosa recalled a conversation he had with Malcolm Wilson 'the other day'.... read it yourself, it's bollocks.
It's all hearsay, chinese whispers and extrapolations from imaginary conversations to form contentcontentcontent. That's why I choose not to accept it.
Maybe there are shreds of truth. There is WMSC next month and the announcement of a new promoter, allegedly, which makes sense. Maybe Lancia is true, maybe this is too and the Dirtfishes are under embargo. But I can wait rather than having blind belief.
Should we spend 10 pages talking about what is happening in 2029?Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
"They are pointing to the new World Cup starting in 2029, which is when all the cars are already there, where we will already have private individuals who will enter with new cars, as is the case with Yves Matton, who will enter with a car for the completely new year. The P1s will be gone and the P2s will be left with the kits that, in essence, will give them more competition."
ive learned from all the years on this forum and in social media that everything that comes from southern europe regarding rally news has to be taken with a pinch of salt.
it's just a matter of what anyone decides to extract from the news. from Italy: Lancia's news is true, it comes directly from the manager of the brand. but it's not that much of a news. she just said more or less "we are working on the 27, a thing in which we are interested".
then anyone decides how much to build on it.
It's logical they will do it in already built Rally2, since they will have that option to compete alongside WRC27. If things will progress regarding more entries, they could separate those two classes again, and I think then they will decide if they will go up the ladder. Right now it's still a great chance all will fall into the water and such a fragile brand will rather sit out until things will be clear than going with head through wall. WRC teach me that everyhing is not true until it is. Sadly here things are clear too late or never. It's just blabbering and most of promises can't be taken too seriously.
Hyundai boss thinks WRC27 Car will have big advantages over Rally2 cars...
https://rallyjournal.com/hyundai-bos...iLxLh9Dn0TPjyg
They are loud like they are some sort of experts or that their cars dominate the sport. Funny they rely just on some "unfinished" technical data they've got, but their cars are always complete mess when they build completely new chassis.
Take with a grain of salt, but what FX says makes at least sense in my opinion:
"According to Demaison, the WRC27 regulations will provide a clear advantage to the new-generation cars. On asphalt rallies, for example, the new cars will benefit from their wider track and aerodynamics. The same applies to transmission systems and set-up possibilities."
"“The WRC27 suspension will have more freedom to accommodate tarmac and gravel. The double wishbone suspension for sure will have more reliability in the rough rallies, there will be an advantage compared to [our current] McPherson suspension. All this together on tarmac and slippery rallies, the double wishbone will have an advantage and on rough rallies they will have a big advantage on reliability and capability for the driver to go faster through the rough conditions. It does not leave too many rallies where a Rally2 or a Rally2 plus can be competitive,” Demaison explained."
But at the end it does not matter at all. No one will be able to compete with Toyota, since they will be the only one with real manufacture investment left.
They could drive Rally3 cars and would most likely win
What about the Toyotas competing against Toyota? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
Then a Toyota would beat a Toyota leading to Toyota being the champion in the World Toyota championship :D :D :D
And eventually Toyota would leave as they prefer having a challenge.
At this point Toyota IS Rally1. Maybe we should kindly ask them to run cars for all current Rally1 drivers ;-)
Would make for a nice competition
I wonder how the price cap will work, but I'm afraid it won't be really effective for keeping a performance balance. Afterall cost of the car doesn't necessarily need to reflect the cost of development for big manus.
Maybe financial cap ala F1 could work somehow? But idk, as F1 isn't customer focused like WRC27 aims to be.
Or some kind of financial balance, like customers must be able to somehow cover the cost of the development by the car sales.
A team cost cap would be the only action helping in my oppinion. But it's a huge investment to control it if I understand correctly from F1Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
The WRC side of things won't be customer focused. Maybe it'll have that by-product, but the new promoter doesn't sound like they're settling for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
The way all is processing, we can expect to have promoter and all things clear by the year of 2029. And the interested teams in championship racing on paper until then.
I start to get WRX PTSD. Eerily similar. 27 seems to be a bust, 28 maybe too.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
Hyundai did win the Manufacturer Title twice (2019 & 2020) and could well have won 2024 when their driver Neuville was World Champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
But about the comments of FX Demaison, he is probably right that the WRC27 could have many advantages over the Rally2 cars.
As this is what they'll have next year (if they continue) then he might be getting his excuses in early. However unless they make a huge comeback this year I dont see how they will justify staying.
Off topic, but I am a firm believer that Hyundai is a top team (maybe not this year, but still), that was massively let down by its drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Put Ogier / Tanak in the Team from 2017 onward and we would look at a dominating team with many constructor and individual championchips
Tanak was there twice, did you forget that? And koining Toyota team for testing and not Hyubndai, is quite clear it's the cars that let him down again and again. In that team there were so much great drivers and still they struggle year by year. We saw that if great drivers are put in M-Sport they can do miracles, which sadly can't be said for Hyundai. Based on results Hyundai did best when there was Adamo pulling the strings. I strongly believe that Neuville won the title simply because Ogier did too many mistakes. If he would drive like last year he would easily won that too. I blame Cyril to turn that team to worse, simply because he is not the right man for this sport. After so much years they could at least be somewhere, but they getting nowhere. If they continue like that in WEC where competition is way higher, intense I don't know how they will ever achieve great things. They've had so much chances through all those years in WRC when there was only 2-3 teams to compete.
Ogier +Tanak + a promising 3. driver which initials are not T.N.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
Would have, could have, but I refuse to believe that they would have let the team develop this understeering thing that only ever (and only sometimes at that) suited Thierry
What? The hybrid i20 in 2022 and 2023 was one of the most unreliable rally cars ever made, not even prime Loeb could have won the title with a car whose suspensions would fall apart on road sections. Only in 2024 it was close to Toyota, and in fact Neuville won the title. The hybridless + Hankook i20 in 2025 and 2026 is close to undriveable and much slower than Toyota more often than not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
Tanak drove for Hyundai for 5 seasons, couldn't clinch the title and was fed up with the car's being slower and more unreliable than Toyota. Ogier couldn't handle the C3 having 2 powersteering failures in a whole season as sole reliability problems, let alone the Hyundai.
Ferranis has a different point
He means if Ogier and Tänak would have been there prior 2017 and developed the cars not jumping into those wrongly developed ones.
You can have a case about driveability, but it's still up to engineers to develop the car according to the driver input. It's possible Ogier and Tanak would have been better at developing than Thierry, but would the engineers be able to transform their input into a good car? Neuville didn't ask for an understeering car, nobody would, in the past he had to modify his driving style and use handbrake a lot to counterbalance how the car naturally was.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
For reliability and parts that just fail, that's totally up to the team.
Hyundai have been in this series for 13 consecutive seasons, what would they get out of more, especially when it is moving to a constructor basis.
Agree, basically everytime they develop new car, they are too late to the party, the car is rubbish and they act like they just start rallying.
Really appreciate the nice discourse and can totally understand all the replies and where you come from.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
To emphasize: Hyundai lacked a star driver like Ogier (with Tanak as second) that made the team their team, preventing all the shenanigans and leading it to success. Thierry just isn't this kind of guy
I am thinking if Ogier made Ford a championship contender, what could he have done with the resources of Hyundai
What shenanigans would have Ogier prevented, exactly? Ogier doesn't design car parts, engineers do. Ogier can say "the car understeers too much", maybe he can loosely suggest modifications to differential, everything else is up to engineers. And this is if we give for granted that Ogier would have had the patience to pull Hyundai out of unreliability, which he didn't have with Citroen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
Thierry is the only driver in recent memory who won the title while driving clearly not the best car. Even Ogier's Fiesta in 2017 and 2018 wasn't the fastest, but was the most reliable.
I think in general its the question how much impact a driver has on the success of a team. Personally I hold the driver in high regard. Building and maintaining a car for a driver that will win if the car is up to par must have a huge impact on team morale. Additionally such drivers tend to get what they want from the team, if there are no preventing circumstances (MSport out of money, Citroen doing whatever they did). Success also breeds succes, better engineers want to work for you in such a teamQuote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Morale and mentality are abstract concepts. What would Ogier do to fix turbo failures? Fuel pump failures? Suspensions collapsing? Nothing, a driver can do nothing about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
Could he make the car more driveable? Maybe, if we assume the engineers would be able to translate his input into output, they haven't done a good job at that in all these years.
But then, if Ogier is so good at make a team work, why didn't he do it with Citroen? The C3 wasn't slow nor unreliable, the big problem was driveability. Ogier complained, didn't improve it and quit the team after one season, not even attempting to make the team his own.
C3 was actually being developed and significant upgrades were planned for 2020. Östberg was developing them and according his description the upgrades improved the car a lot. Sadly we all know what happened in the end of 2019 with Citroen.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Ogier is not the only man who can actually win a title, or more over, make the car good. Just look at all Toyota drivers. They are all very good, even Pajari and Katsuta, which were clearly the team's weakness, but that changed this year. It's just that Hyundai have so many drivers already in the team, so many years competing and still somehow clueless about everything. I don't say Neuville and Fourmaux aren't the right guys for team, and also those three in third car are somehow making the best they can, it's just that they completely lack in development and consequently team morale went down event after the event. Maybe also many of crew already knew, they are out, so they don't bother so much anymore. Even Neuville admitted, it's over for this season (Ok, he slightly changed his mind with recent win).
If we look again on Ogier performances lately. He is having troubles mostly just by those damn Hankooks. If he would have issues with car frequently, he would probably already retired, as he is not very patient person, and also with so many titles, he expect some professionalism, as Toyota could provide him that, and Hyundai and M-Sport sadly couldn't or won't.
The upgrade was sick:Quote:
Originally Posted by trykmann
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eov84PRQuyU
Really sad we did not see it compete. Same with the new Yaris Toyota was developing that was cancelled due to covid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_vOnEKuSG0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVv4vJrVEMw
To go back to the original topic after a really fun excursion (thank you all for the wonderful discussion).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
THIS is what I want the top class of WRC to be and not whatever WRC27 will be.
With a team cost cap it would most likely be achievable. We have good tools now to develop aero for comparatively cheap
So who will turn up? Only Toyota.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
Right now yes, but this is after years of mis-management, which could not have happened :( (one can dream)Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
17 we were on a high, which was squandered later on, especially with the ill fated plug-in hybrids
Mismanagement? They were bound to the decrees of Politicians and the Princes of Finance.
17-19 was class because of 4 teams all equally capable with a spread of talent. Wouldn't see that again with a production car basis. The future is not a manufacturer entrant's sport.
I dont agree. If FIA and promoter works properly and has anything to offer, I am sure we should have 3-4 manufacturers (which is enough for proper championship)...Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan