No but Tommie was questioned and runs atm Toyota Gazzo development of WRC17. Why wouldn´t he be allowed to test the car? Everyone questioned him hasn´t come up with alternatives for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
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No but Tommie was questioned and runs atm Toyota Gazzo development of WRC17. Why wouldn´t he be allowed to test the car? Everyone questioned him hasn´t come up with alternatives for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
You too Mirek? Tommie is one, maybe the one, perfect man testing the car for the moment. After that later on there will sure be others too. But questioning him is even respectless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Obviously too early to tell but the car looks slow compared to what I have seen by now for 2017. Also the fact that Tommi is only recruiting finns gives such a bad image, are the finns the only talent in the World?! Or is he recruiting everyone he is friends with so they can milk this cash cow dry?!
I didn't question Tommi. I did question You.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
I think it's a bit knee jerky to focus on Tommi driving atm.
A. There are other test drivers
B. At this point they are just testing that everything works on the car together.
VW did something similar in the first tests with Gronholm.
And don't even get me started about judging the car's speed from the few videos we have...
I'm not with nor against Tommi but i do think its waay too early to judge. Of course, you can gossip.
"Mirek: Just like Dimviii I just don't have a good feeling about the whole Tommi's Toyota project even though I wish it all the best (also to Juho Hänninen)."
This is questioning. And like seb_sh says above it´s not time to question anything at this stage of the Toyota WRC project. And neither Tommie. Do we even know the drivers for sure? (maybe except from JH)
As I said, it's only my feeling. I didn't have a good feeling about initial VW tests as well. Time will tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Now we can agree. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Yeah in a way I see a huge amount of the "conditions" being right...But that's from my viewpoint of some strange "home-sickness" for the woods up there and the roads..
The technical part---design--that as we've all said can be done anywhere there's electricity to run a computer: a guy can design a gear or a control arm and send the DWG file to the guy at the next desk or across the world with one click to somebody who does a FEA (Finite Element Analysis) and click and it goes to a CNC machinist who carves up a hunk of steel and makes it who can be down the hall or anywhere..
The troubling part is just this cultural part that somebody a page back said about some of the really good drivers who would just drive the car when its supposedly set up back and forth once and mumble OK, and then go and essentially "just drive it". Christain Lorioux said a long time ago in a very interesting and long article in Race Car Engineering that the problem in degigning a car for gravel was getting all the data needed and that was made harder because the best drivers "had a bad habit of driving around problems in the set up".
And they could not explain in terms he---the genius designer and engineer---could understand... (he contrasted this to developing a car for tarmac where the conditions are far more regular and the task so much easiser and with all the test and measurement stuff that could load onto a car, he could get all the data he wanted to make "all the decisions needed to make the car perfect and the driver's opinions or input was really not important" because as he said "They don't really understand all the systems in the car" SO WHO CARES WHAT THEY THINK."
So I wonder if the cultural thing of just how quiet the Finns are by nature, and how the culture emphasises basically "just shut up and drive" which Gronholm so perfectly said once time (when asked "What does it take to be a great WRC driver?" ) he said "Oh, that's easy! A BIG FOOT and an empty head! Ha! Ha! ha!"
Not that no analysis is done, but that so much remain un-said because the culture reinforces the quietness and silence.
And example from granlandet Sverige
(neighboring country Sweden):
I shared a garage with 2 Swedes who were very good riders, very good indeed..Top 5 Swedish Championship level back when Swedish Championship was considered harder to do top 10 than World Championship..
One evening all 3 of us were working on the bikes..I looked at the clock and noticed that we worked each on our own stuff for over 45 minutes and not one word was said.. Zero...
And Swedes consider Finns even quieter relatively.
And my experience shows that to be so..
I wonder if THIS kind of extreme individualism can be a problem for the whole project.
No, as TMG also contains japanese humans. (However I don´t know if they are quiet too, but some sort of communication needed in the way project is going) And once again. On this very early stage I suppose they need to test reliability also on the car besides handling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Oh Japanese..Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery quiet and worse, in all Asia, very hierarchical...very deferant... (read about co-pilots in Asian Airlines never speaking out when pilot is doing things wrong, and go to their death silently rather than screaming at the pilot..
It IS a problem.. Hell I was just in China again and talking about the top-to-bottom tendencies in all Asia and silence and obedience were so important..
Per, You can never say so clear no. Communication within the project is the thing which often plays a crucial role even if You have the best individuals involved. I've been working in automotive (stock cars though) for some six years but I haven't met a single project where I could say that everything was properly communicated. With various manufacturers and suppliers, with people from all over the globe, with all the means of modern communication every time there is a lot of problems which can be prevented or solved by proper communication.
There is even something similar to the driver's feedback in my daily work. Imagine that one of the most famous car manufacturer gives You a written specification that "the feeling shall be soft and dull". What the hell is that? How can You as an engineer design something what You can't measure in numbers? It's same with the setup. To find the common language between two worlds - between feelings and numbers, between driver's heads and computers. It's really a tough challenge which You can never consider automatically working.
On the other hand it's not always a good idea to go too much international. Some people simply don't go well with others and sometimes it has a lot to do with typical national mentalities. For example I don't think that it's a good idea to have a common Japanese-Chinese team.
Wow, that's a great noise from the new Yaris... :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Makes you realise how important the sound of a rally car is to the spectacle and excitement. It's just as important, if not more so, than the cars appearance.
Hope sometime we can get this through to the TV people and let us have the option of a pure sound stream for fans that dont want/need a commentator talking non-stop.
No other team would allow what is happening in the gazzoo team, but the japanese have their own way when it comes to flop so we just wait....
I work with a lot of asians and boy is this a problem... I had a coworker who almost accepted being killed once just because he didn't dare speaking up when the other college (who was higher than him in rank) did something extremely idiotic that would have gotten them both killed if I hadn't intervened. The lower rank guy actually had a brain unlike the higher rank guy, but he didn't speak up due to their extreme hierarchical structures.Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
Anything that means we don't have to listen to John Desborough!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Again, individualism is no problem whether or not they can speak loud and clear with each other or not.
Let´s face facts, those we know.
Tommi (and Hanninen) testing two newbuilt cars, after what I know one in Finland and one currently in Spain. At this stage of testing Tommi seems to do big part.
Why question that without big picture?
Like many of you guys say: let´s wait and see. Questioning this and that by now is not only stupid. It looks to me that there are more of you trying to be gods like N.O.T. whom even not him can tell the future.
I personally don't want to read only "whoah, that sounds good" posts. It's good to see people's opinions, experiences and feelings also because we can later go back to them and see who was the one to hit the nail. Some level of natural criticism is normal and healthy thing. Remember how hard Pentti was against the M-Sport spare wheel placement in Focus WRC/Fiesta S2000? Sadly he didn't live till the days when M-Sport abandoned the idea but he was obviously right that it was a blind alley.
Of course arrogant and rude one-liners is hardly a way to discuss stuff.
First was “it should be TMG”, then “Toyoda is naive” and “Finland isn’t handy”, a couple a weeks ago was “he’s not on schedule” now “Tommi’s too active” and “the team is too much international”, next it’ll probably be “he can’t pick drivers”…Jesus guys, give the man and his team a break and praise their hard work a bit more.
and then it will be "they only won because the guy in 2nd was slower"Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
It will be interesting how this team will work out indeed. I don't see any problem with Tommi testing the car at the moment, because even though he basically hasn't driven any WRC for over a decade now, he's not an idiot, and he can tell if something is working or not. Remembering how the Hyundai looked in 2013 and comparing it to the Yaris, I say they'll be at least decent (but I'm not an expert on this either).
As far as the team structure goes, I think they're still figuring things out how that should be working. Give them time, and if they flop they flop, but hopefully they won't.
Toyota did not become the worlds largest car manufacturer by being stupid.
Toyota are very conscious of having a positive image in motorsport
"Kaizen" is a key word in all of Toyota's operations.
3rd day in spain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNl-...ature=youtu.be
Now, that is spot on man. If I were better in english I´d put it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
engine problems according to editorQuote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Yet, the F1 project wasn't successful and the latest R3 and R1 attemps ended as a disaster even in the lowest rally category...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk2 RS2000
I completely forgot about the Yaris R1 project... whatever happened to it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
And Honda (another Japanese car company) is not covering itself in glory in F1. Maybe a comparison too far...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
I did like Janvanvurpa's (?) comment about the Finns being naturally quiet. I am doing a project with Japanese and Italians, The Japanese will do what you ask, think about things long and hard and focus on the detail. The wild creative ideas come from the italians. Its chaos to make it all work, but it seems to. The japanese when the present to the client, its all thought out and they won't show the client until it is. The Italians will openly argue and debate in front of the client and with the client. Japanese and Finns would be an interesting mix.
And yes, the Japanese will not challenge authority. If Tommi is in charge he is the boss and will be right. Not necessarily a bad thing if he is always right.
Diversity in teams is good.
There are a few former M-Sport people in Tommi Makinen Toyota. Is there a place for pickems/ rankings for the rally engineers and technical directors etc?
https://rallyparadise.wordpress.com/...ngs-team-struc
I would assume with the mix of M-Sport, Prodrive and Ralliart experience there will be the meetings, reviews, progress reports etc to move the Yaris project forward.
To attempt to change the approach of this topic a little, I will ask about the design of the car...
What do people think of the frontal area? I assume the two small holes under headlights are for sensors only? But what about the entry point in the middle of the high pressure area and the corresponding vent centre of the bonnet? Could this be for cooling airflow over the turbo/intercooler? Bit different from other WRC designs, but I wonder how that will look in an unmasked car and compared to the factory car look?
What are peoples thoughts on the aero? The wing is obviously a little different and seems to be taking advantage of the more relaxed wing rules. The wheel arches and the "running boards" (Sorry don't know technical name) seem reminiscent of WTCC and seem a logical way to further smooth airflow. To my rather limited knowledge of aero this all looks quite logical, but keen to hear more knowledgeable opinion?
I am not an expert or an engineer but i do feel that yaris might be able to do what peugeot 208 did back in the days with marcus as driver.
yaris seems quite small in front of the VW and Citroen C3 but seems pretty stable.
in testing videos of yaris there is continuous release of throttle by tommi or who ever was testing it so true speed is not yet evident but car surely looks and sounds pretty good initially.
Was Tommi involved?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Why do You mention Tommi when the sentence I reacted to was about Toyota? Don't You agree that those three mentioned Toyota projects were failures?
I personally find the car very interesting, but also see it as quite differentiated compared to the "regular" WRC cars, which means that it can go either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkvy
Aerodynamics: In regards to the aerodynamics, there have obviously been a lot of work going on, and from the outset I think they are pushing boundaries that others will have to follow.
They have a clear splitter, an extreme running board design, rear view mirrors that I think are made to direct the airflow, and probably have something to do both with the wheel arches and the winglets on the rear wing, all to control air flow.
Rear wing: The rear wing in itself is obviously quite different to the "WRC Standard". It has no rounded edges, and is in this case square as a wing from the older Subaru WRC (sedans) (but with out the plates in the high pressure area), and also similar to the MINI WRC. The rounding of I believe (in lack of better understanding) is made both because of airflow, but also because a rally wing also needs to work at an angle because of sliding. So to me this looks like a wing made to work when the car is straight, which also should give some clue about the general philosophy behind the car.
Ride hight: The rear wing off course has a main job of extracting air from beneath the car, so it will work in direct correlation with the splitter and the underside. To maximise effect they are running the car VERY low. If they can keep it like this, it will be some kind of revolution in the WRC, and again its all about the aero (mostly.)
On surfaces like in Finland, and off course on tarmac, you can do this, no problem. But for me it will be interesting to see how it can work in the rough. From what I have seen from the early footage, there is already some problems. Both in regards to general ground clearance, but also in regards to the low ride hight creating jumps where other cars would just run straight over. So this will be interesting to follow.
Driving: From the outside - but this is off course just VERY early testing - it looks like a very straight line car, which I think can be good. But it will also require the driver to adapt to the car in a bigger extent than for example a very rounded of M- Sport Ford.
If you compare this car to the TMG one, even tough that was built to 2016 specs, its clearly a more aggressive strategy and tactics, which shows that you dont need the biggest team or the biggest budget to be the smartest. And I think especially in the aero departement this car already has made for some extra pondering by the competitors. Way to early and way to little info to really judge performance, but I think it looks interesting in a positive way.
Calm down. I was just kidding you a bit. :) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Please pardon my ignorance, but where does the "Gazoo" in the team name come from? Surely not the Flintstones character, the Great Gazoo…..
Attachment 966Quote:
Originally Posted by RAS007
Here is Tommi Gazoo for you!
Jason Craig @JournoJason
The Toyota Yaris #WRC test car has reportedly gone through four engines already. One managed just thirty miles...
https://twitter.com/JournoJason?lang=el
And they've been testing over a month now?