3 years on Rally 2s as they are now. No additional costs, no kits, nothing. As they are now. Use 2025 to work out new regs from 2028 onwards. Simple. But, no, Hyundai will cry and Ford may be displeased with Ben Sulayem. It's 100% political.
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3 years on Rally 2s as they are now. No additional costs, no kits, nothing. As they are now. Use 2025 to work out new regs from 2028 onwards. Simple. But, no, Hyundai will cry and Ford may be displeased with Ben Sulayem. It's 100% political.
I can't see Ford being more involved than they are now. The GT3 Mustang seems to be more of a priority.....and even has full Ford branding on the WEC coverage....
Without a WRC round in the USA Ford wont change their position. Its not like they have tested the water and backed a car in their own domestic championships. Mustang is one of their mainstay models in the home and Australian markets.
[QUOTE=WRCStan;1346779
Or, they could yes, but it's an idealist's view of WRC being a fair and inviting sport championship. If you expect that any of what you put is ever a serious target, you and I have opposing views of how the world turns.[/QUOTE]
I was just saying it was the possible way to have more cars and more competition at the top level in an ideal world and if it had been planned well in advance.
Sadly it wasnt and now they stuck with just 8 cars and the same faces on every rally for another 2 years.
8 cars if they're lucky. I'll be surprised if Hyundai and Ford are both involved in the top class in 2026 personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
And also puts a premium on the current drivers who are familiar with the Rally1 cars, puts another lock on the gate of up-and-comers.
A ban on part-time drivers scoring championship points would put a stop to this sharpish....Quote:
Originally Posted by dodge33cymru
Imagine if Ogier wins this years championship on part time program. What a story. He has already multiple crowns with three different manufacturers over Loeb. That could also help the whole picture and promotion to reach more and more people.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
I won't beat the dead horse again by repeating over and over again the same reasons why all you wrote is wrong. Come on. It's been explained so many times that it hurts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Same answer. Guys, why are you so ignorrant? Literally nobody in charge wants Rally2 as the top class. That idea is dead and burried for good.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
Lower class as the top category is a no go. And everyone still loves to look greener than they are, tho it seems manufacturers EV ambitions are being scaled back a bit.
If to still look towards the hybrid solution, then why not to go for range extender/generator route with the engine only as the power plant supplying electricity of the electric motors? You'd get the brutal torque of EVs and could still go through the service park silently.
Of course it would leave the issue I have with most modern rally cars, they are missing the 'wow' of sound. A very loud speaker imitating engine sound based on throttle input?
same answer too: fine, then lets have 2 more years with only 6 full time cars in the "pinneacle of off road motorsport".Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
where 2 of these 6 are there only because that team gets money from the drivers ("pay-driver") and the promoter of the championship (redbull), otherwise they wouldnt (probably?).
can at least we agree that we should start demanding hyundai to run a second team with 2 cars, since they were the ones crying about keeping current cars? hehe cuz latvala said removing the hybrids would be a good idea (they even tested, right?) and msport would never refuse a cheaper program, without hybrids...?
so its all on hyundai for me hehe.
i think things could work out if hyundai started a second team, if toyota really had a second team using subaru's bubble on the top of the rollcage, if msport (toyota and hyundai too, why not?) could rent some ('23 old cars?) non-hybrids rally1s and having them allowed to compete and score points. we would all be fine with that. we just need more cars on the top, more drivers, more teams.
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
M-Sport did refuse the cheaper programs, all three current manus did.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
I'm not sold on second teams, an independent entry is needed to make it a meaningful entry else you only have also-rans. Unless the second teams are all non-hybrid and juniors or something like this. Doesn't have to be every round. Maybe fia/promoter can add 1 Rally Stars car per team sponsored by Saudi or something. I don't know, just thought it up.
well, these are good ideas too. if we are keeping rally1s because the THREE TEAMS asked for that, then we need more of them on the stages! according to ewrc/cars, there are a lot of rally1 cars around. like, more than 20. how will they work together to run at least another 6 of these? with hybrids or without hybrids. juniors is a good idea, star car is a good idea. i'd hope these cars could score driver's points tho, even if they have no hybrids. they will be behind the hybrids cars anyway, so let them score those rally2 points
Thing is, more cars is a problem made by fans, and as it gets chatted about it's seen like it is a major problem. It's not really. 6 stars and 2/3 up and comers is about right through history. It's an OK number for the FIA/promoter and makes for a nice hour of TV and all this.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
I regret saying this now as it doesn't answer the key question, a junior/non-hybrid class is not top-class in the strict sense of the words. Of course they would get driver points, but IMO not WRC2 points (nor manufacturers). It's more of an idea for the Promoter to back its own future and personalities that could enhance the current circus. It's great that they can do some local drivers here and there but if it can't get meaningful traction it lacks purpose.
its weird to think about that because normally people just get used with what they have and thats it. for example:Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
in F1 they have 10 teams. current teams dont even want a big name like Andretti joining the series. i know in F1 having 10 teams instead of 11 means more money for the 10 teams, but its weird that right now F1 fans are kinda ok with only 10 teams while a few years ago, there were fears and talks about "oh, each team may have to bring 3 cars if we have not enough teams competing" (remember that?). but, with time, people stopped worrying. same for those v6 engines. its not loud as the v8, people complained. now most fans dont care anymore. v6s are fine. we tend to get used to stuff so MAYBE we can get used with wrc with just 6 cars + a few fillers, but it should be a little more interesting that what we have right now. we need better stories and rivalry too.
evans is weak and boring, taka is weak, munster is weak, fourmaux is weak, sordo-mikkelsen-lappi are just "fillers", not thaaat interesting.
Kalle/Seb/Ott/Tierry are the good ones.
anyway. fascinating topic, always cool to chat about rallying as a whole.
but its to move on... to the 2027 wrc rules.
Winning a championship with part time program is not that special. Has happened many times in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
That was before 1993, when only 5/6/7 best results counted and teams and not all rounds counted for both manufacturers and drivers titles. After 94, where all rounds count, it has never happened.
Take a look at the ERC from sweden, its much better in every way than todays WRC.
Sorry to say, FIA has shot themselves in the foot, and limping around blind without a clue how to stop the bleeding.
Cut rally1 hybrid, if the manufacturers don't want that, cut them too, open up the rules who can build a rallycar, the manufacturers building Electric cars anyway, they don't care about motorsport anymore, if the WRC ending up as a professional nonmanufacturer series like Lemans or F1/F2 its fine for me.
If some of the best drivers don't want to keep driving, thats also fine, not motivated drivers don't bring exitement anyway.
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I remember some guy, named Loeb.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
:\\Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
I really don't care what the topdudes want, they obviously don't know anything. At all. Let rhem kill the WRC then.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Stupid people runs this. Sorry, someone has to say that.
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You want to see WRC merge with ERC. ERC already exists. So why are you here?
The Main WRC Class has been silly for quite a few years; now as well even the points system for the main wrc class. Leave the Rally1 for the big budgets and big attitudes etc.
I suggest an AP4 type system to run with the WRC Rally 2 class, Rally 2A to run the current Rally 2 and R5 cars and Rally 2B to allow AP4 type cars to be part of the 'Rally 2' class. Modify the AP4 rules to allow the 2B car to be slower than Rally2A. The 2B build budget to be far less than a WRC main class car. In NZ the AP4s have run Audi S1, Holden Barina, Mitsubishi Mirage, Mazda 2 (more regular cars Paddon's AP4 Hyundai i20, Skoda Fabia AP4, 2 & 4 door Ford Fiesta AP4, Toyota Yaris), made for Australia 2 door Mini. Rally 2B mainly aimed to be a semi-professional privateers tuners class so they can turn up with one off builds, BMWs, Tesla(with a 'class standard engine', Nissans etc converted to rally cars, play with their own engines, transmissions without having to air freight engines back to one European factory for checking etc.
This is nonsense. Because nobody from current Rally2 manufacturers wanted it. All the proposals made by "Richards commission" were not discussed with manufacturers and all other groups involved in this sport. It easily failed as it was bad from beginning and nobody wanted them. From beginning, the best way is to keep current Rally1 cars until the end of 2026 as it was originally planned and work now on new cars with proper regulations from 2027...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
No, i want WRC to be as good as ERC. Simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
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If Hyundai signed up for another year or two it was a success.Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
haha good reference. i spent years on motocross foruns arguing about how the world championship is broken or how in american supercross they should ditch these 450cc 4strokes bikes.... but here in my house i actually only watch the 125cc 2strokes european championship haha modern times, we are all weird. we seek internet confirmation and confrontation, but nobody wants to figth about zanzoz vs mancini, they only talk about gasjer, jef and jorge prado heheQuote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
That was pretty arrogant statement from you. How about it's you who don't know? How many international championships have you run to make statements like this?Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
WRC without manufacturers is dead because it can not live without their money and big sponsors. Privateers can never bring the funding needed to run the series with the current level of footage, current calendar etc., hence why whatever rules they must be manufacturer-oriented. Anything else will lead to reducing WRC into second ERC which is completely stupid idea when one healthy ERC already exists.
Rally2 must stay separated from the main WRC manufacturer competition. That's the only way to keep them affordable, level and privateer friendly. The sport can not afford to destroy Rally2 class and all other championships where they run for a very temporary boost of WRC level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Humber
Also there was already a totally failed attempt to combine WRC cars with regional cars. It didn't bring cheaper WRC cars but it brough extremely expensive regional cars which the teams mostly couln't afford. We don't need to try that again (WRC/RRC).
"Everything is shit but nothing should change" seems to be the moto of the "level-headed" folks here
That's weird way to defend bad ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kras
Although some Working Group ideas were good if proposed earlier, late timing made them bad.
I'd go with "Some things are understandably shit".Quote:
Originally Posted by Kras
Things shall be changed but only a well prepared change announced reasonably early (at least two years ahead) makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kras
Well, i could of course use other words, like incompetent, greedy, or "out for lunch", but the meaning is the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Of course i dont have run a international championship, neighter did you, i presume.
But, i've started 4 companies last 20 years, still running 2 of them, i know quite much how to run a business. I'm close to 50 years old, maybe i'm arrogant, i call it open, honest and direct speaking.
I've also run a quite big motorsportarrangement, we have run it 8 times i think, i also been a part of big arrangements in other sports, so i have my words safe i think.
The biggest problem is that it seems the promoter don't have a clear goal, and a steady way to that goal.
"The customer has always right" some said once, that is wrong. Sometimes they have, but most of the times, they don't. The customers for the promoter is mainly the manufacturers, and they are afraid to make a decision that some not agree to, thats a bad way to run a business.
Now i feel the manu's pushing the promoter around, noone are happy, noone have a clear goal, noone make the championship moves forward.
The other problem is that the manufacturers aren't interested in motorsport anymore, both due to not suitable cars, not suitable engines, and environmental politics.
So, i mean, that a manufacturerbased championship is a dead road, they have to make new set of rules that can suit semi-manufacturers or importerbased team that want to compete..
My sugestion is from 2027: safetycell as is today. Eighter own engine from production or a standard FIA engine. Sustainable fuel.
Less aero, less carbonfiber, normal sequensial gearbox, shorter suspension (not much, but enough to lower the speed)
And of course, no hybrid.
They need more customers, ia teams, if the team is named Toyota gazoo racing or opel prodrive wrt, or mitsubishi uk redbull i don't care, but they need more teams and more cars.
Of course not everyone can win, but that is life. If that was the only goal, why are these other teams enter F1?
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Thank you for reasonable argument. Calling people names is really unnecessary though.Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
Now you speak about 2027 rules but we know little about what they are working on for 2027. What if they come with the very same thing you just wrote down? What is the point of your attack then?
What FIA working group made really wrong is coming with this weird last minute proposal without having pre-mediated support from at least some manus. The fact that manufacturers refused that proposal and FIA backed away didn't mean that FIA was doing everything the manus wanted. In this case it's exactly the opposite because this proposal went directly against their will.
I admire your will Mirek to argue with the windmills here.
Yes, You are right.. ARGUE with everybody, but not giving any ideas or options for new gen cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
There have been many posts/questions about or how WRC future/cars should look like.. but there is only some master degree blabla.
,,Just give some years of time, everything will be good then!''
Dmn I miss Mr Adamo..
i meant "argue" in a good way and he has always very good explanations and points unlike some others who think they know everything when they have started 4 companies and call FIA and etc people stupid and what not.
Please go and candidate to work also in FIA then if you think you have answers and solutions for everything.