Jules Bianchi Suffers Severe Head Injury

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Thats true, aquaplaning is possible in an F1 car at 200 MPH or 60 MPH, of course at 60 MPH he would have barely made the crane though.

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According to telemetry, he was going 213 km/h (132mph) when he went off:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/am...crash/?v=2&s=1

We had a discussion some years ago about the removal of cars from the track. I had advocated using a winch to drag a beached/damaged/crashed car off the track. However one of the members here, an active marshall , commented that would be unsafe as a rule of thumb is that another car could come off at the same location.
Under the circumstances, Sutil's car could have been winched off the track had a 4WD equipped with a winch and a Marshall deployed when the safety car was on track to slow all cars down and the area of the crash had NO cars about to come near. We are talking about seconds to attach a cable to the stricken car.

Under NO circumstances should a JCB be on the track until all cars were stopped. Who the blooming hell gave the OK for the JCB to go onto the track? This is incompetence and stupidity of the highest order, and should be the subject of an inquisition, not to mention a huge, huge fine for the Organisers of the race.
The Japanese are great sticklers for any time table, be it train or ship; but not to advance the race time or even postpone the race because of the oncoming typhoon is simply caused by not wanting to lose face. Well, somebody should draw the Organisers attention that the result of their incompetence has now resulted in a trajedy far worse than merely loss of face!
I am more than just saddened by Bianchi's injury; I am disgusted at the stupidity and incompetence of the Organisers responsible for this incident.

Had it been dry it may have been reasonable to recover the vehicle under yellows, but in those conditions a stricken can should automatically cause a safety car.

I seem to remember other circuits have long reaching cranes [BEHIND\] the safety fence to recover stranded cars.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I seem to remember other circuits have long reaching cranes [BEHIND\] the safety fence to recover stranded cars.

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There was one at Suzuka, between Dunlop and the chicane I think, but apparently it couldn't reach Degner.

It would be difficult to make this a general standard I think. You'd need a lot of cranes to cover somewhere like Silverstone or Monza, and the huge runoffs at the newer circuits could make length of reach a problem.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

The problem we have seen over many years though is "how slow is Slowing down a bit"? Unless a set restriction is in place, drivers will always go a bit faster to not loose so much time as someone who lifts off.

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Yes very true. Even the slightest lift off the throttle seems to be accepted by the stewards, that is a long-standing problem.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

We had a discussion some years ago about the removal of cars from the track. I had advocated using a winch to drag a beached/damaged/crashed car off the track. However one of the members here, an active marshall , commented that would be unsafe as a rule of thumb is that another car could come off at the same location.
Under the circumstances, Sutil's car could have been winched off the track had a 4WD equipped with a winch and a Marshall deployed when the safety car was on track to slow all cars down and the area of the crash had NO cars about to come near. We are talking about seconds to attach a cable to the stricken car.

Under NO circumstances should a JCB be on the track until all cars were stopped. Who the blooming hell gave the OK for the JCB to go onto the track? This is incompetence and stupidity of the highest order, and should be the subject of an inquisition, not to mention a huge, huge fine for the Organisers of the race.
The Japanese are great sticklers for any time table, be it train or ship; but not to advance the race time or even postpone the race because of the oncoming typhoon is simply caused by not wanting to lose face. Well, somebody should draw the Organisers attention that the result of their incompetence has now resulted in a trajedy far worse than merely loss of face!
I am more than just saddened by Bianchi's injury; I am disgusted at the stupidity and incompetence of the Organisers responsible for this incident.

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Wouldn't having a tense cable across part of the run-off area potentially be even more dangerous? Especially if the car was immobile, the dragging would cause more debris that would need to be picked up, more danger for Marshalls etc.. Not disagreeing with you that something needs to be looked into!

I'm starting to think that the best solution is also the easy solution. And it might rob us of some racing time but it would be fair to all drivers.

Simply enforce the pit speed limiter at any time a recovery vehicle has to come out from behind the wall. In the event of a track with really slow corners, set a limiter even lower if needed. Once the FIA transmit the message, cars have X seconds to comply. When the accident is cleared, drivers get a warning or countdown to when they can resume racing.

We had an incident earlier this year where marshalls were crossing the track with cars only seconds away. And in this case the speed though the area was much too high, and it endangered others as well as Jules.

Interesting point made by Sutil in an interview I just read .

He mentioned that it's not just the low light conditions that create the danger , but mentions that this combined with the bright lights on the steering wheel makes it very hard to see .


So , we have a driver in poor conditions , given a bright yellow light shining in his eyes , asking him to slow down , AT MID-POINT IN THE CORNER !

Sutil stated he was following Jules closely when he went off .
Jules must have seen the puddle that Sutil hit , as he avoided aquaplaning that lap , and made it around one last time .
Adrian's vision would have been blurred by Bianchi's car's spray , so hitting the puddle can be understood .
The rain was increasing as well , so the puddle would have been forming at that time , thus perhaps not affecting others as much , if they saw it .

This may , in part , be a safety device that was responsible .
Light level played a role , it seems .

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I'm starting to think that the best solution is also the easy solution. And it might rob us of some racing time but it would be fair to all drivers.

Simply enforce the pit speed limiter at any time a recovery vehicle has to come out from behind the wall. In the event of a track with really slow corners, set a limiter even lower if needed. Once the FIA transmit the message, cars have X seconds to comply. When the accident is cleared, drivers get a warning or countdown to when they can resume racing.

We had an incident earlier this year where marshalls were crossing the track with cars only seconds away. And in this case the speed though the area was much too high, and it endangered others as well as Jules.

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As I said earlier, it's a system that was employed at Le Mans this year and worked very effectively. It also meant that things got cleared up that would normally be left. FOr example someone went hurtling through the gravel at one of the Mulsanne chicanes and marshals came out in the 'slow zone' to sweep up. In the past the gravel would just have stayed on the track for cars to pick up.

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Originally Posted by Norwegian Blue

Wouldn't having a tense cable across part of the run-off area potentially be even more dangerous? Especially if the car was immobile, the dragging would cause more debris that would need to be picked up, more danger for Marshalls etc.. Not disagreeing with you that something needs to be looked into!

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Not if the safety car has een deployed and race control informs the marshals no, I repeat NO racing cars are in the vicinity.
While on the topic, Alain Prost has also condemned the deployment of the JCB onto the track while cars were racing. Big error, and somebody must be held accountable. Maybe in time honoured tradition, this person may consider hari-kiri!

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I'm starting to think that the best solution is also the easy solution. And it might rob us of some racing time but it would be fair to all drivers.

Simply enforce the pit speed limiter at any time a recovery vehicle has to come out from behind the wall. In the event of a track with really slow corners, set a limiter even lower if needed. Once the FIA transmit the message, cars have X seconds to comply. When the accident is cleared, drivers get a warning or countdown to when they can resume racing.

We had an incident earlier this year where marshalls were crossing the track with cars only seconds away. And in this case the speed though the area was much too high, and it endangered others as well as Jules.

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BRILLIANT! I fully support this solution.

At very least they could neutralise a sector of the track to a predetermined delta time (adjusted for wet and dry conditions) of say 25-50% over the mean time for the sector. Stop go penalties for all infringements. Disqualification for more than one infringement in a season. With the technology we have there is little need for a safety car, except that it physically bunches the cars together, leaving big clear areas of track/time to do what they need to do. For off track work neutralisation would suffice, for anything that actually involves activity on the circuit full safety car. No trackside vehicles to come past the fence until neutralization of that sector occurs

Another way of improvement could be the marshals. I'm not sure what kind of training they receive, but there must be better on the spot judgement of situations like this. There was clearly very dangerous situation at that corner, and some kind of higher level alert should have been deployed, especially when it rains.

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Originally Posted by jparker

Another way of improvement could be the marshals. I'm not sure what kind of training they receive, but there must be better on the spot judgement of situations like this. There was clearly very dangerous situation at that corner, and some kind of higher level alert should have been deployed, especially when it rains.

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If F1 is anything like lower level motorsport then you don't care what training the marshals have! The number of people volunteering to marshal these days is really poor and a lot of events that I'm involved in are really close to not running at all, as a result of there not being enough marshals.

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Originally Posted by jparker

Another way of improvement could be the marshals. I'm not sure what kind of training they receive, but there must be better on the spot judgement of situations like this. There was clearly very dangerous situation at that corner, and some kind of higher level alert should have been deployed, especially when it rains.

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Pull out your wallet.

Moving words from Jules' father.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/1...till-fighting/

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

We had a discussion some years ago about the removal of cars from the track. I had advocated using a winch to drag a beached/damaged/crashed car off the track. However one of the members here, an active marshall , commented that would be unsafe as a rule of thumb is that another car could come off at the same location.
Under the circumstances, Sutil's car could have been winched off the track had a 4WD equipped with a winch and a Marshall deployed when the safety car was on track to slow all cars down and the area of the crash had NO cars about to come near. We are talking about seconds to attach a cable to the stricken car.

Under NO circumstances should a JCB be on the track until all cars were stopped. Who the blooming hell gave the OK for the JCB to go onto the track? This is incompetence and stupidity of the highest order, and should be the subject of an inquisition, not to mention a huge, huge fine for the Organisers of the race.
The Japanese are great sticklers for any time table, be it train or ship; but not to advance the race time or even postpone the race because of the oncoming typhoon is simply caused by not wanting to lose face. Well, somebody should draw the Organisers attention that the result of their incompetence has now resulted in a trajedy far worse than merely loss of face!
I am more than just saddened by Bianchi's injury; I am disgusted at the stupidity and incompetence of the Organisers responsible for this incident.

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Actually the organisers did nothing wrong and Charlie Whiting's assessment is I believe correct.

There was no guarantee that a rescheduled race would have been any safer given that the conditions at Suzuka were changing regularly. The unspoken and ironic thing here is of course that the very media outlets (especially TV) that are lambasting Suzuka for not rescheduling the race would also have complained bitterly at having to reschedule their own TV timetables. Had Suzuka been started in the morning at local time then it would have been broadcast in Europe (still F1's main TV market) in a complete deadzone around 1-2 am. As Vettel said in a Sky interview after the race about his own thoughts about rescheduling the race he responded that the journalist should ask her employers, after all the race organiser had commitments to the media that they would have been penalised for breaking and had more clout than the drivers or the FIA in this regard.

Were the weather conditions to blame? I'm sure the wet conditions contributed but the rain was hardly monsoon-like at the time of the accident. As Brundle commented we weren't seeing cars flying off on the straights as we do in serious wet weather conditions. Had Bianchi not gone off the safety car would not have been deployed. The only driver complaining about the conditions was Massa and we all know his love affair with wet weather driving don't we. Lewis and Rosberg stated that they saw no problems with the wet conditions other than the spray at the time the accident happened. Racing in Japan carries on through the typhoon season and they are used to handling races in such conditions, nevertheless what we saw at Suzuka was not comparable to what we saw at Fuji when the race was rescheduled or Sepang when the race was redflagged due to the torrential rain.

As for the JCB, what other sensible options are there for rapid car retrieval? The contours of the hills around the corner there with 130R just behind doesn't allow the placement of a huge crane. Your winch option is fine for a car beached on its own in the gravel except for the cable acting like a perfectly placed garrote for any drivers going in the same place, how does it help for cars that are punched deep into the tyre barrier?

Just to put things into perspective Bianchi was very close to Sutil when the latter went off. Bianchi then lost control exactly one lap later at the same spot. In that time (around two minutes) the JCB was already reversing back behind the tyre barrier when the Marussia went into it. The marshals were extremely efficient. They were also protected by double waved yellows. And here lies the rub, the truth that taste prevents people from stating too loudly. Had Bianchi followed the double waved yellow flag guidelines he wouldn't have been going at the speed he had been and the crash would likely have been far less violent had it occurred at all. He had been going at 200 km/h when Button at full race pace through the same corner was going at 230 km/h and others at 260 km/h in the dry. A mere 30km/h slower than full race pace in the same conditions is NOT in anyone's book complying with 'slow down and be prepared to stop'.

Racers are racers and I can fully understand why they do not comply with double waved yellows, however making them comply is the best way of sorting out this problem. Pointing fingers in hysteria will not resolve anything. Introducing racial stereotypes into the argument certainly doesn't help.

Malbec - All very valid points, but surely there isn't a reasonable excuse for not putting out a safety car to take the time to safely recover Sutil's car?

The yellow zone starts half way around the corner .
He would have been going as fast as he could until then .

When you lift off the pedal mid turn , your balance goes out the window .

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Originally Posted by MrJan

Malbec - All very valid points, but surely there isn't a reasonable excuse for not putting out a safety car to take the time to safely recover Sutil's car?

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Does the double waved yellow not have the same effect local to the accident except with less impact on the race if the drivers comply?

Also given the amount of criticism Whiting got for supposedly keeping the safety car out too long at the start of the race and the vitriol thrown at the FIA for safety changes that get in the way of 'true racing' such as tarmacing over the gravel at Parabolica how do you think audiences would react if the safety car was deployed every time a car got stranded in the gravel?

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Does the double waved yellow not have the same effect local to the accident except with less impact on the race if the drivers comply?

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Yes absolutely. If the double waved yellows are effectively observed with an enforced speed limit, then the safety car should rarely be needed except when marshals need to go onto the track itself.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Does the double waved yellow not have the same effect local to the accident except with less impact on the race if the drivers comply?

Also given the amount of criticism Whiting got for supposedly keeping the safety car out too long at the start of the race and the vitriol thrown at the FIA for safety changes that get in the way of 'true racing' such as tarmacing over the gravel at Parabolica how do you think audiences would react if the safety car was deployed every time a car got stranded in the gravel?

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Audiences? A guy is in intensive care, possibly will never wake up and certainly will never race. Audiences can go f*** themselves. Safety should never be neglected in an attempt to keep the audience happy.

Does a yellow flag do the same job? No, the safety car rules are more clearly defined and less open to interpretation so will always be safer. Do I think that the SC should be thrown every time someone is in the gravel? No. Do I think the SC should be thrown every time someone is in a narrow gravel trap and it's bucketing down with rain? Absolutely.

Bianchi was at fault for not slowing enough, I've said that on this thread several times already, but he didn't do anything different to what other people do. Yellow flags have been ignored for years, which is the fault of drivers and stewards/officials, and we all knew that cars wouldn't slow enough while Sutil's car was recovered. The SC was a very easy decision at that point in my mind, and that's not just speaking in hindsight.

There is one thing missing - common sense. Yellow flags have been ignored for years now, mainly because the bloody lot of them forgot why Riccardo Paletti died. Double yellow means 'be prepared to stop at all times', but instead of delivering a flogging to the lot, who ignored the flags, we glorify the one who offed himself while doing it.

#F1 Voice of the Fans: Hippo’s View From The Waterhole, Time To Stop The #ForzaJules Hype

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

There is one thing missing - common sense. Yellow flags have been ignored for years now, mainly because the bloody lot of them forgot why Riccardo Paletti died. Double yellow means 'be prepared to stop at all times', but instead of delivering a flogging to the lot, who ignored the flags, we glorify the one who offed himself while doing it.

#F1 Voice of the Fans: Hippo’s View From The Waterhole, Time To Stop The #ForzaJules Hype

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I agree with this actually, except maybe the bit I bolded. The drivers are under pressure to get away with as little slowing down as they can, so as not to lose time to other drivers... And it has clearly escalated too far.

I don't know when this started, but my first recollection is Mika Hakkinen in qualifying for Monaco 1999. He set pole quite controversially under yellow flags since he raised his hand while going past the yellow flags, giving the impression he was slowing when he wasn't.

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Originally Posted by rjbetty

I agree with this actually, except maybe the bit I bolded.

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*Scribbles three red crosses into the calendar*

That must be the first time you ever agreed with something I wrote. :)

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Originally Posted by MrJan

Does a yellow flag do the same job? No, the safety car rules are more clearly defined and less open to interpretation so will always be safer. Do I think that the SC should be thrown every time someone is in the gravel? No. Do I think the SC should be thrown every time someone is in a narrow gravel trap and it's bucketing down with rain? Absolutely.

The SC was a very easy decision at that point in my mind, and that's not just speaking in hindsight.

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Nonsense.

The only cars driving slowly in sc conditions are the ones stacked immediately behind the sc. The others are doing what Bianchi did, slowing down enough to pay lip service to the rules and fast enough not to lose any advantage to their competitors until they hit the pack.

In this case the sc may or may not have gone out quickly enough to collect Lewis a lap or two after sutils accident. Bianchi would still have gone through Dunlop at broadly similar speed as he did in reality and the accident would have been the same. Had the accident not happened the sauber would have been carried away before the pack had time to even form up behind the safety car. It wouldn't have affected race events one bit.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Nonsense.

The only cars driving slowly in sc conditions are the ones stacked immediately behind the sc. The others are doing what Bianchi did, slowing down enough to pay lip service to the rules and fast enough not to lose any advantage to their competitors until they hit the pack.

In this case the sc may or may not have gone out quickly enough to collect Lewis a lap or two after sutils accident. Bianchi would still have gone through Dunlop at broadly similar speed as he did in reality and the accident would have been the same. Had the accident not happened the sauber would have been carried away before the pack had time to even form up behind the safety car. It wouldn't have affected race events one bit.

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er.... Don't they all have a Delta time now a days when the SC comes out, meaning they go at the same speed as cars behind the SC?

I think the days of cars being 100% speed trying to catch the SC are gone. Something does need doing about double waved yellows

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

I think the days of cars being 100% speed trying to catch the SC are gone. Something does need doing about double waved yellows

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There is something called "Rule 60" on the Nürburgring Nordschleife. Double waved yellow means 60kph max. That would of course be difficult to gouvern, but F1 has something that could be used for a start. Double waved yellow - activate pit speed limiter - easy to gouvern, nobody could abuse it to gain time on the car in front and cars would be slowed to a somewhat safe speed. I mentioned that on one of the TJ13 podcasts weeks before Suzuka and it felt rather creepy that the very same suggestion could mean Jules wouldn't be comatose right now :S

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

There is one thing missing - common sense. Yellow flags have been ignored for years now, mainly because the bloody lot of them forgot why Riccardo Paletti died. Double yellow means 'be prepared to stop at all times', but instead of delivering a flogging to the lot, who ignored the flags, we glorify the one who offed himself while doing it.

#F1 Voice of the Fans: Hippo’s View From The Waterhole, Time To Stop The #ForzaJules Hype

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I agree mate Jules did this to himself. As badly as I feel for him and his family I have to acknowledge this. As many of you know I was involved in a motorcycle accident 10 months ago, that was legally the other guys fault. Though I am riding again, I am not, and probably never will be back to the physical health I was before the accident. It has affected my livelihood as well. But I know when I am absolutely honest with myself that I could have avoided that accident had I been more careful. Yes the guy ran a red light, but I had obscured myself from him by a car in the next lane thus obscuring my view of him. Actually I am thankful that I didn't get more seriously injured, and now ride with a heightened sense of awareness.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

er.... Don't they all have a Delta time now a days when the SC comes out, meaning they go at the same speed as cars behind the SC?

I think the days of cars being 100% speed trying to catch the SC are gone. Something does need doing about double waved yellows

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There is a delta but the cars are not at the same speed as the SC, otherwise they'd never catch up with it. The fact is currently even with half the grid going into the pits for a quick stop, the pack catches up with the SC within two laps or so which is pretty quick.

I agree about the electronic controls limiting drivers to a certain speed in double waved yellows although this raises some other questions. What do we do when someone has a problem like Rosberg at Singapore where half their electronics are knocked out including their limiters? Also we'll need some sort of flexibility and forewarning, having a double waved yellow straight after 130R or Eau Rouge would be a recipe for disaster so there would need to be several sectors which are speed limited, perhaps with a reducing speed limit as they get closer to the sector in question.

I am sure the technology exists for the FIA to trigger all the car's pit speed limiters by remote control. If there's a problem, hit the switch and it's safe for the crews to remove a vehicle or whatever, and when it's clear, let them go.

The not so evident benefits would be no time or laps lost to the safety car gathering up the field, so the crews can get to work and finished faster. That, and the FIA could restart the race at any point instead of making the field come around to the start/finish line. From a driver's standpoint, you would not lose any lead you had, but then again, if you were behind you wouldn't gain anything either.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

There is a delta but the cars are not at the same speed as the SC, otherwise they'd never catch up with it.

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What a good point. :p

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Originally Posted by Malbec

There is a delta but the cars are not at the same speed as the SC, otherwise they'd never catch up with it. The fact is currently even with half the grid going into the pits for a quick stop, the pack catches up with the SC within two laps or so which is pretty quick.

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They aren't at the same speed...but they're also not at the significant speed that Bianchi was.

Those who've visited thejudge13.com before might want to listen to our upcoming podcast (published on Thursday or early Friday). We'll have former F1 doctor Dr. Gary Hartstein as a guest and he'll give some insight into why the Bianchi accident was handled the way it was. I'll be on, too. On TJ13 I go by the name "Fat Hippo" - a less than subtle reference to my physique :D

I am still in so much shock about this. The possibility of losing another driver's life so long after the late Ayrton Senna is terrifying. Yes, motorsport is dangerous, but to go so long since a death, and with so many crashes at much higher speeds happening now! It feels like it would be a step backwards. And what about closed cockpits? It would totally ruin the whole sport. Not to mention there is no material out there that would have withstood those forces pressed upon Bianchi. It would just smash up anyway.

Welcome aboard? :\\;)

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Originally Posted by Total_Hoon_Motorsport

I am still in so much shock about this. The possibility of losing another driver's life so long after the late Ayrton Senna is terrifying. Yes, motorsport is dangerous, but to go so long since a death, and with so many crashes at much higher speeds happening now! It feels like it would be a step backwards. And what about closed cockpits? It would totally ruin the whole sport. Not to mention there is no material out there that would have withstood those forces pressed upon Bianchi. It would just smash up anyway.

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I think the fact that there has been no fatality since Senna is to blame here partially. Drivers deluded themselves into a sense of invincibility. They already ignored double waved yellow at Hockenheim (The Sutil shunt). They did again in Suzuka. Just this time Jules paid the ultimate price...

Why did organozers use so long to get Sutil car and tractor out of track. Very tragic outcome to their slow work.

A Statement from the Bianchi Family | 19 November

Nice, France
Wednesday 19 November 2014
16.30hrs CET

The parents of Jules Bianchi, Philippe and Christine, would like to provide the following information regarding Jules’ medical care, by way of an update to the media and his fans.

“Almost seven weeks after Jules’ accident at Suzuka Circuit, and following a challenging period of neurological intensive care, we are able to announce that Jules has made an important step.

“Jules is no longer in the artificial coma in which he was placed shortly after the accident, however he is still unconscious. He is breathing unaided and his vital signs are stable, but his condition is still classified as ‘critical’. His treatment now enters a new phase concerned with the improvement of his brain function.

“Jules’ neurological condition remains stable. Although the situation continues to be serious, and may remain so, it was decided that Jules was sufficiently stable to be repatriated to his native France. We are relieved, therefore, to confirm that Jules was transferred aeromedically last night from the Mie Prefectural General Medical Center in Yokkaichi, Japan, to Le Centre Hospitalier Universitaire de Nice (CHU), where he arrived just a short time ago. Jules is now in the intensive care unit of Professors Raucoules and Ichai, where his care will also be monitored by Professor Paquis, Head of Neurosurgery Service.

“We are thankful that the next phase of Jules’ treatment can continue close to home, where he can be surrounded and supported by his wider family and friends. We have nothing but praise for the outstanding care provided by the Mie Prefectural General Medical Center since the accident. We owe the medical staff there an enormous debt of gratitude for everything they have done for Jules, and also for our family, during what is a very difficult time for us. In particular, we would like to extend our thanks to Doctors Kamei and Yamamichi, and also to Mr Ogura, all part of the team of personnel caring for Jules in Japan.”

ends

Notes to Editors:

At this stage there are no plans for any media interviews, therefore the family kindly asks for the continued support of the media by requesting that they do not attend the hospital. It is important to the family that the rest of the hospital be allowed to function normally and that respect is shown for the other patients, their families and the hospital staff.

In line with the family’s commitment to the media since the time of Jules’ accident, all information will be issued unilaterally via press releases. The family remains committed to providing continued updates when appropriate.