Think he will test on gravel in France, just to get used to the car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
There will be a test in Sweden on Saturday, I think.
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Think he will test on gravel in France, just to get used to the car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
There will be a test in Sweden on Saturday, I think.
50 kmQuote:
Originally Posted by Watson
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVV4hBXWsAAKjDF.jpg:large
Seems that Mads is having Adapta and OneBet backing for his Citroen deal
Snow at Citroen Racing HQ is convenient. Any test roads nearby ?
Probably the road won't have an icy surface underneath the snow, so it will be very different to Rally SwedenQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
But it will be slippery, and thats the Citröen worst surface and good for Mads to understand what they have to do before sweden test.
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Mads twitter:
"Seems like Rally Sweden preparations are everywhere! It will be snowy conditions at Citroen Racing shakedown today."
"I will have 1 full day of proper testing with the team before Sweden this weekend'
Will be one day of testing enough for Mads to learn the car to be fast on rally? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Meeke and Breen only getting 1 and a half days is probably not enough for them either, judging by the difficulties they had last year. Wouldn't be surprised if we didn't have a Citroen in the top 6/7 here.Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
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Besse told*Motorsport News: “We improved the gravel car, so we should have a car that’s better on snow. But [this week] we need to find the good set-up for this car which is completely different from last year’s car on snow.”
Asked if he was confident four days testing would be enough to dial the C3 WRC in, Besse replied: “I’m sure it will not be enough, but it’s always a compromise if you put every thought on one rally it’s not a good thing.
“We have to be reasonable, it’s one rally on this surface, so we give four days and then we work more on gravel. But we hope we will be able to do our best in these four days, we need to be efficient and do a better job than last year.”
https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/ne...eden-wrc-test/
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Little Big Racing by Citroën - Rally Sweden: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxP9as9yqtA
Wasn’t able to follow Sweden properly, but Breen looked strong all event long and Ostberg also performed decently; quite an improvement from last year rally. It feels Citroen tech staff is managing to improve the car and probably we cannot longer say the C3 is a crap. With the jokers they’re expecting to use since Mexico (or Argentina?) things are starting to look promising in the French squad; good news for them and great for the WRC!
Big cheeks Matton left the team and the car is immediately up to speed :D
I got the impression the drivers were almost as surprised as us that the car performed as it did in Sweden. Breen in particular kept referencing that it's 'sticking', which I took to mean the rear of the car.
Rumors say that Breen and Østberg started Sweden using the completely changed set-up that came after Mads struggled during his testday. He tweeked on almost everything, and ended up with a very different set-up than where he started.
Meeke tried it, but felt it did not suite his liking, so he went back to his way of setting up the car.
Shows that many drivers need to test a car, for the constructing team gets many inputs, to make a car that is adjustable for many styles of fast driving.
Citroen has tradition of using their number 1 driver as head tester. That was ok with the two Sebs. Not sure about car behaviour preferences on loose and hard surfaces of the 3, but I guess someone here has insight to share?
Could be that a totally different take on the set-up has made such a positive difference, but Meeke has always been held in very high regard as far as car set-up and development goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
That's not to say he always gets it right though.
I wonder if it's possible that new components on the car have allowed the operating window to be shifted, thus allowing for a set-up that was not possible before? (diff components/ software / suspension geometry parameters)...
By whom? Which car did he help develop?Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Last year he used DS3 on at least 3 pre-event tests for "comparison". Doesn't look like someone who is sure about setting up a car.
Sorry if I offended you somehow pal... I can't remember specifically, but he used to do a lot of development work for when Loeb was driving for the team and they actually gave him a special mention for his work in the initial development for ..... (I think it was the C4?).. I'm sure someone will remember better than I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Maybe the fault is (or was) within the engineering / technical side of the team and not solely at his door. Did you consider that, or are you certain he is to blame?
I just wonder how you got the idea. Sordo developed C4 afaik.
I remember him being publicly praised by whoever ran Citroen sport at the time (not so sure it was Matton, but can't remember who it was exactly)... they accredited him with a lot of the cars performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Every time I was watching Mads past weekend, I was once again amazed how rough and aggressive his driving style is in comparison to most other drivers. It's the same style he was driving the Fords past couple of seasons. All arms and elbows without much finesse, looking out of the side window in every second corner. Exciting to watch, but you can just feel the last seconds escaping him at the same time. Not sure if that style is the best for C3 or any other modern rally car for that matter, but I think especially the "racing car" Citroen would probably demand a completely different driving approach. I think both Meeke and Breen have a much more refined and suitable driving style for the car. Though funny enough, when you throw the car around like Mads (if you still maintain a good concentration and accuracy in driving otherwise), it is actually often a bit safer style to drive as you get a bit more time to react to surprise moments than if you try to do maximum attack completely racing style. Maybe Östberg's driving style is one reason for his great consistency record. Of the drivers in the recent past Mikko Hirvonen had a bit similar old school style and he also had a great finishing record. But especially towards the end of his career he also started to struggle a lot in terms of pace.
In contrast, whilst Meeke has a great driving style for C3, his problems are in consistency. With Meeke's style the concentration has to be even greater as the margin for error becomes smaller. And like I said elsewhere, I think his pacenotes are probably the underlying issue for most of his problems. I remember Petter Solberg had this exact same problem. He had a great modern driving style, even more nose-first than Loeb, but to execute it successfully he put more and more things and accuracy into his pacenotes, in the end way too much in my opinion. And then in the end everything is just way too much on the knife edge all the time. Your brain can't keep up consistently anymore for the whole 300-400 stage kilometres.
If Colin McRae and Richard Burns were able to drive 2018 WRC cars, using the same driving style than they had in their days, I think Burns would do great and McRae would struggle similarly like Mads does. Or if Walter Röhrl was born 40 years later I think he would completely dominate the modern WRC. You just have to be so smooth and clean these days and also find the right balance and ingredients which allow you to execute that style consistently.
He helped in the DS3 WRC development, and was also main development driver for the 208 T16/DS3 R5. Now, I don't want to lay the blame at anyone's door, and maybe this comparison is completely irrelevant, but those R5 cars have suffered from the same problems as the C3 last year: good cars on tarmac, but on gravel, the rear has less than satisfactory grip/behaviour, and had many problems with bad bump stop settings/management (which is a design flaw, but why did they design it like that?). So I'm not saying Meeke is to blame (entirely), as they have used far less drivers for the R5s and the C3 tests than they used to for any of their new cars before (for the DS3, they used Loeb, Sordo, Bouffier, Sarrazin, Meeke, Ogier, etc.), which could clearly affect the development, but the cars he was the main development driver for have suffered from similar problems, which is quite interesting I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Interesting point about the pacenotes. I strongly believe that Meeke's Mexico off last year was 100% down to his extremely detailed pacenotes. In the onboard Paul managed to get all the pacenote out in a fraction of a second, but I feel it must have been humanly impossible for Meeke to process all the data he was given right before the corner and slow down.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiK7
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As a co-driver I completely thought it was because of the pacenotes.. Nagles call was way too late. I assumed it was completely Nagles fault as I did not realize Meeke likes descriptive pace notes.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve.mandzij
That being said, you can only say so much when you have multiple calls in a short run. I think it would make sense to dumb things down or speak in codes to prevent from info overload. Similar to when Nagle just called Latvala on "Latvalas Corner" in Sweden. No need to say Latvalas corner. Even better just say JML. That's what I did when co-driving for a quick French driver in the states. He wanted descriptive notes and I got sick and tired of saying things in longform so we decided to shorten things or use acronyms when it made sense.
Nice insight. I just checked the video and in Mexico Nagle called out "be neat this time" right after the corner and moving over to the next one. He timed the note well IMO but rushed it to get that added message through, and Kris probably didn't have enough time to process it.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
As for the Latvala corner, what did that pacenote really mean? Sideways?
Also, unrelated, how does one go about becoming a co-driver?
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I don't know for a fact, but I'm assuming it's where Latvala had an "off". We always named corners where someone had an off or did something amazing like "colins crest" etc.
The Co-driver gig for me came as luck honestly. I owned a JDM EVO 3 Mitsu and met a performance shop owner during a rally who was service crew for a few of his clients. At that time rallying was not big in the states. I only introduced myself because I wanted to buy some parts for my car. I ended up becoming friends with the shop owner after giving them some business. A few months later a driver (client of theirs) needed someone to co-drive as his normal co-driver was not available. I was asked if interested because I was literally one of a handful of clients they had who was interested in rallying. I laughed and said "yes!, but i don't know a thing about co-driving". A few weeks later I was in a rally car reading a route book and making a ton mistakes, but having the time of my life. This was pre pacenote era in the US. The route book was pre written with only major calls such as cautions, hairpins etc. Nowhere near as good as pacenotes (stagenotes in the US). After that first co-drive I met a ton of drivers and wanted to get involved seriously so I signed up for the local forums and went to all the club rallies trying to get a ride in as many cars as possible. After many stints with different drivers I finally found a solid drive for a few seasons.
So one way to do it is to go find a rally service shop and tell them you would be interested in co-driving for their drivers if the occasion presents itself. You can also volunteer at club rallies and go talk to some drivers and co-drivers. When I started we had no schools for co-driving in the states. The only way to learn was to find someone with a rally car and enter a rally. Now they have many schools so I think you almost have to have some schooling before doing your first club rally. Sign up for a forum like specialstage.com in the US and offer to help pay a newbie driver some money or help get their car ready to get the experience. Have a lot of fun and stay safe.. beware of any drivers with a bad reputation and stay clear (trust me it's no fun).
It was so addictive for me that I actually helped pay for some rallies... nothing major, but I paid for hotels for me and the driver or gas etc in my early years. I always tried to help with any preparation since I actually enjoy working on rally cars. In the end I never paid, but I was also with better drivers by that point who had their own funding or small sponsors.
Indeed. Btw, Meeke was also involved on the Mini WRC development; another car which was only competitive on tarmac.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWRC
So Citroen made a 'last-minute' decision to give Ostberg a third C3 in Sweden.
Why cant they do what would effectively be the same for Breen in Mexico ?
Is it cost or what that makes Mexico different ?
I don't know the exact dates, but entry and freight deadlines probably make it more difficult. Also Ostberg $$$ surely opens doors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Mads is paying for his drive. Entries closed for Mexico before SwedenQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
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The Mexico entry deadline has passed, plus I imagine it's harder to add a car there considering the distance. For Corsica it's a different matter, they might even be able to get some budget for this especially since it's Citroen's home round.
Why is Ostberg only saying he's 'hoping' for more Citroen drives if he's paying ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelly
I guess Citroen think he wont score more points for them anywhere but Sweden...
Coming into a works team he can't be expected to incur the entire cost of the entry. Crew, logistics, service set ups, accommodation, testing etc. I doubt it's anywhere near as simple as somewhere like M-Sport. And we know how tight PSA wallets are these days. With it being a very last-minute deal they clearly didn't thrash anything out beyond Sweden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Mads is not paying 100%. Otherwise he would be in a complete OneBet livery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Maybe they are playing like M-Sport. 3rd car reserved for specialists and Qassimi. It's wrong that Breen must suffer, when they could easily put Loeb in third car.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
It was announced from the beginning of the season that it would be only two cars + Al-Qassimi. And now that Mads paid for Sweden, they set a third car for him. Other than that, it's a tight budget causing Breen to have a reduced program.Quote:
Originally Posted by ESTR
If we look at last year, Citroen was running with only two competitive entries for half of the season
Monte Carlo: Meeke, Lefebvre (+ Breen in DS3)
Sweden: Meeke, Breen (+ Lefebvre in DS3)
Mexico: Meeke, Lefebvre
Argentina: Meeke, Breen
Finland: Meeke, Breen + Al-Qassimi
Spain: Meeke, Lefebvre + Al-Qassimi
Wales: Meeke, Breen + Al-Qassimi
and 3 cars for other events, with Al-Qassimi also in Portugal as a fourth car.
Maybe people are getting carried away by Breen's Sweden result.
The decision on Loeb in Mexico had been decided well before and looked understandable considering his greater experience there...
Also the fact Citroen clearly have a limited budget is the big problem.
Fast Eddie WRC has a point. Breen had a great drive, but we all know how much road position mattered in Sweden. Breen had an excellent drive no doubt, but lets see how he does on a Gravel event.
Lets hope the Citroen is getting better. Rumor has it the car has improved quite well on gravel after early testing in Mexico with Meeke. Rear of the car is a lot more settled according to inside sources.
Others also had good road position, but it was Breen who came second, and his drive was realy impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
Absolutely. He demolished Paddon, and Mikkelsen (who's admitted he's aiming for the title) couldn't cope with him on what was his home rally with an equally good start position. Ofcourse Breen still has a lot of improving to do to be up with the top guys on pure pace in more equal conditions, but this was a such a good step for him and Citroen have dropped a clanger not having him in the car for Mexico (and possibly even Corsica). The new team boss knows as much himself, but the decision was made before he was in position sadly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2