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The second issue I have is... well, Loubet went off, so 3/10 is fair, but saying he struggled "to find any decent pace". Then later on when giving Greensmith 7/10, Greensmith "set some encouraging times". Loubet was ahead of Greensmith when he went off.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
It's all fine, until something happens when warming the tyres like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by scn
Most important action against having an accident in the first corners are driving according to the grip you have. The best drivers in the world should be able to do that? Gryazin seemingly managed it in Croatia after his long hold.
I heard that they are warming up the brakes not to make them work but to keep them warm and to keep the whole wheel warm which helps retain the heat in the tires longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by scn
True, but Greensmith seemed to drive his best WRC car event so far. He was the slowest WRC only on a few stages (not counting Sunday when he had technical issues) and didn't make his own mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrvold
Bit daft overtaking a vehicle on public highway then slamming brakes on to warm tyres. While it might need to be done to warm brakes tyres etc, some appear not to be considerate to other road users.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrvold
In that YouTube clip towards the end of the video is a tocsport Skoda that slams brakes on quite hard, Vauxhall insignia travelling behind brakes so hard the rear brake lights flash indicating heavy braking warning to following traffic. Driver of Vauxhall appears to take avoiding action by veering to the left, with an oncoming vehicle heading towards him.
A rally fan may be aware of this tyre warming procedure, Regular road users not so much.
Audi is back ;)
https://scontent.fktw4-1.fna.fbcdn.n...64&oe=60AD4090
I think you need to re-watch again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
- the Toksport Skoda is not overtaking anyone and had good distance behind (white Movisport Skoda before that overtakes a Citroen and hits brakes... but also into 40 km/h+speedbump+school zone and the Citroen basically doesn't need to hit brakes even though he touches them)
- the Insignia is far behind and accelerates in that low speed zone just after passing the cameraman (into a 40 km/h+speedbump+school zone, note that there is also a speedbump before the cameraman) which is why he closes up the distance. He even seems to continue to accelerate after the Skoda starts braking.
- reason why the Insignia is "avoiding" the Skoda to the left is because the Skoda gives a right indicator indicating he wants to stop/pull over, at that point both are doing like 10 km/h and the Insignia already stopped braking
I know what car overtook.
Think you need to watch the video again if you think the Citroen didn’t need to brake, and the Insignia driver wasn’t doing anything wrong either, Tocsport Skoda brakes to a near standstill, way below 40 limit.
Watch again and this time from the viewpoint that you are driving the insignia, and imagine the car in front is not a rally car, then tell me if you were the driver would you consider the Skoda drivers actions acceptable driving?
- Citroen didn't need to brake for Movisport Skoda, he lightly touches the brakes after that Skoda already stopped braking and has same speed as the Citroen, with one car length between (see the shadow)Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
- The Insignia is visibly accelerating for no reason (possibly over the legal limit) to close the distance ("fan" racing) and because of that has to brake a lot. Then he seemingly tries to start overtaking/passing immediately without using signals while the Skoda actually uses signals to indicate he is stopping/letting him pass.
I find it extremely strange that from that long vid with many cars warming the tires by crossing left-right over both lanes you pick on these two. As mentioned by others it's the warming up by slalom across the street that is frowned upon by the police. Braking is by itself legal (unless you do that a few cms in front of a car), though off course drivers should have a look in the mirror before doing that. Problem is when the guy behind is racing you for some reason, like the Insignia did.
Because overtaking someone then braking immediately or slamming the brakes on with a car closely following is shit driving.
It makes sense because the time from Time Control to Start is 3 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by flykas
they need to warm up.There is no racing pad with same bite from 0 to 500-600 celsious.Quote:
Originally Posted by scn
At least in my country the past 30 years nothing has ever happened during warming tyres.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrvold
Especially 2WD cars without warmed up tyres can be very dangerous and can easily kid the driver that he has grip which he doesn't have. Also, on the level of WRC were races are lost for 0,6'' I don't think it is so real to ask from drivers to spend about 5-6 corners searching the level of grip.
As an aside note: If anyone thinks that it is possible to become rally driver, even a mediocre one, without violating many times the law and the modern advertised "correctness", he does not have the slightest reality about rallying. It is not possible. All drivers have acquired necessary skills, experience and competence in totally illegal and "incorrect" situations. Incidentally, as a side result, they have become safer in many illegal situations than the majority of average drivers are in legal ones. And all of them have been involved in situations in liaison sections where law had to go out of the window. All drivers have been outlaws many times. If anyone wants strict adherence to "correctness" and law, he is in the wrong sport.
@dimviii
Carbone Lorraine RC6 and RC8 have a level curve and very high friction coefficient from low temperatures. I am not sure, but I have heard that some WRC teams use RC8 on tarmac.
Wilwood A have friction coefficient 0,55 from 35 degrees Celcius, which is already very high. Personally I haven't been able to detect any change in Wilwood A from the first corner to the last, even in crazy stages with 17 km continuous downhill sections. They lose some responsiveness at the end, but they are still as powerful as on the first corner. Pad technology has moved really a lot the past 15 years.
Please see the diagrams I attach.
Last year Jan Černý managed to went into a ditch during warming tyres here and since then everybody is making fun of him for that :DQuote:
Originally Posted by scn
at your diagram shows that wilwood A while has 0,55 at 35 degrees,climbs to 0,67 when properly hot.Thats a huge differenceQuote:
Originally Posted by scn
i know that technology mooves,i have tried almost everything in my evo from 2005,best so far without wearing discs is Carbotech xp 10.Impossible to fade them,even at 20-30 km downhill,or with repeat hard braking from 250-300km/h to full stop.Discs full red from glowing,pedal and feeling as the first brake.
Just an interesting question. How does an EVO get to a 300 kph and how long does it take? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
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depents how powerfull it is,as to find a stock one is almost impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
Stock EVO 8 on a gravel woth stock tyres was max 190. Well I couldn't dare to go any faster anyways :DQuote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
But on tarmac after about 150-160 the engine just wasn't very good/powerful enough. The tuned ones had quite good turbo lag....
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a stock evo 9 runs 0-200 at about 20 sec.A tuned one about 400bhp (reprogrammed ecu/exhaust/air filter) about 13-14 sec,we have seen and some good ones at 12,7-12,9 secsQuote:
Originally Posted by cali
evo 8 is a bit slower due to smaller turbo,5 speed vs 6 speed for evo9 and not variable timing for evo 8.
Both of them gain a lot with reprogrammed ecu and exhaust.
Evo 8 is not slow after 160km/h is slow after 200km/h due to big gap from 4th(200km/h@ 7000rpm) to 5th speed.
When you reprogram the evo 8 is not that a problem,because it has almost 80-100 bhp more which helps to accelerate quickly the long 5th speed.
about lag depents with what you compare.If you compare with vw group engines yes they are laggy,but vw engines run small turbos that they are not so good at high revs.
Generally lag is not a problem when you drive them quickly,because they have wide rev range,from 3000 rpm to more than 7000 rpm.Have in mind that when you reprogram them,except the big gains,they have a much better turbo spool,at low revs too.
@ 300 km/h the Evo drag force is roughly 3 kN which means that the power, needed to overcome it, is approximately 250 kW, i.e. 340 Hp. You need to add rolling resistance and mechanical efficiency (losses in transmission, power used for alternator atd.) to get the needed engine power but it's for sure possible with up-tuned Evo ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
That is correct. The heat from the brakes heats up the rim and the whole wheel assembly. And that helps to keep the tyre warm.Quote:
Originally Posted by flykas
A few years ago in ypres, i believe it was meeke who crashed into a parked car while warming tyres.Quote:
Originally Posted by scn
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0C_MLLW...jpg&name=largeQuote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/does-...-a-wrc-future/
David Evans on Rally Croatia's future.
Some interesting thoughts about spectators, changes needed for eventual future event and so on.
Good question at the end of the article; is there a place for Croatia on the calendar? Rotating system really seems like a possibility with Australia, NZ, Mexico, Argentina, Chile, GB and Germany missing this season. Much better option than what we had in recent years with almost no new venues and with the same and often boring ones.
Often boring ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pršljen
Can you please name some boring ones ?
I have never witnessed any boring ones but I can only remember from B-group time...
Not boring per se but boring in excitement and predictability. Most of the tarmac events were more or less predictable. These are also the words from Evans and Clark on one of the podcasts after rally Croatia.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
We haven't seen tarmac rally as unpredictable and exciting as rally Croatia in a long time.
Don't take Colin Clark too seriously. David Evans yes he knows more what he's talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pršljen
Other than that Dirtfish content (podcasts/videos) holds more of an entertainment value.
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I can make my own oppinion on the matter, thanks. I know who they are and we have the same oppinion on those tarmac rallies, that's why I mentioned them, their oppinion is more relevant than mine, obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
0,55 is more than enough for the first corner. Most racing pads have lower maximum value. On the second corner it is already higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Have you tried Carbone Lorraine? In my 106 I had a problem with the handbrake. I put RC5 at the rear and I have very strong handbrake from 0 degrees. And at the front RC6 does not have any change in power from 0 degrees Celsius to whatever. It is impossible to fade them or detect any change in power. There are only two problems: Price and that it wears discs like crazy. I dare say that you change discs more often than pads.
Countries that have good rallies and deserve a place in WRC are more than 13. Rotating system seems to be the only fair solution. For example on tarmac there are Corsica, Spain, Germany, Croatia, Japan that offer very good stages. About Ypres and Alsace I would not say they are on the same level, but they are adequate. It is not possible to have 5 tarmac rallies, some have to rotate. The same applies for tough gravel rallies. You cannot have Safari, Acropolis, Turkey and Cyprus in one year.
Regarding traffic jams in Croatia, I dare predict that Acropolis will have a huge problem.
The Evo is much heavier than the 106.Quote:
Originally Posted by scn
IMHO Ypres is much better rally than Alsace and I like it more than Germany too. For spectating it is way better than Corsica too (that's only great for driving IMHO). No idea about Japan. Ypres has a huge advantage in having very easy access to the stages in their entire length therefore the people can spread and you have a chance to choose from plenty of spectacular places while still being able to move from stage to stage. The service park on the old city square is awesome too.Quote:
Originally Posted by scn
Right now it's down to:
- Who can pay for an event
- Who can arrange an event (in terms of COVID)
I understood that Rally Deutschland for example won't be a WRC event in the future anymore because ADAC don't want to pay for it or the costs became suddenly higher or something.
I'm not sure what happened with Tour de Corse, it seems the event hasn't been arranged in any form since 2019.
I have read in German sites that Rally Deutschland will move close to Munich because there they have enough funding.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
About Corsica, I have read that teams don't want it because of expensive logistics. But I cannot understand this, as Sardinia is almost the same.
Sardinia is the only Italian event while Corsica is like a second French one. I can imagine that for the teams having two events in one country isn't optimal and if such second event brings another issues they highlight them.Quote:
Originally Posted by scn
I have seen Ypres only from incars, while I have spectated all WRC tarmac rallies. I am afraid I disagree about Ypres. I don't like rallies with big straights on fields, without uphill and downhill sections. But this is just personal taste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Tarmac stages that are in the Japanese rally championship are wonderful. If they have same level of stages in WRC it will be a top rally.
Finally some time to write down my own (perhaps too long) resume from the Croatia Rally.
All started with a message to the organizer, after hearing rumors that spectators weren't allowed. They answered in a funny way, saying that if I went, I had to say I came for the picnic. Didn't need more of an invitation to visit this rally. :) By the time the rally happened the message was quite widespread. It was my first WRC event since Wales '19. Only when being there I realized all things we've been missing for so long. Even doing the planning and recce, walking to the stages, hearing the cars (especially the Yaris WRC) arriving flat out... We've seen the shakedown and 11 stages. On nearly all of the stages we managed to see also most of the R5 and JWRC cars.
First about the stages. We did recce of 5 stages (first, third and fourth of friday, first and fourth of saturday). I've done recce of a lot of tarmac stages (Monte, Germany, Catalunya, Alsace, Ypres, Barum, Mont Blanc etc.), but never found roads this difficult. It's very technical with little slow sections, but always corner after corner, most blind, full of crests, some jumps in corners etc. Lots uphill and downhill. Added to that you have cuts nearly everywhere and changing grip levels all the time. Especially this white tarmac is very slippery. If it ever rains in this rally, it will add another dimension to it, making it even more difficult and unpredictable. At the end of the rally, I'm surprised there weren't more crashes. Huge challenge for the driver but also for the codriver. Especially the first saturday stage seemed like a never ending roller coaster, like a slower version of Ouninpohja, but obviously on tarmac. For driving craziest tarmac roads I've ever seen. For spectating it's quite difficult, the number of roads leading to the stages is very limited.
First up was the shakedown. Arriving through a narrow hiking trail. When arriving at the stage, a marshal (accompanied by a police officer) came to us, his words: "Please go to that area until the FIA car has passed. We have to be representable for the lady (referring to Michčle Mouton). After that you can do whatever you want." First I expected some Rally Poland scenarios in terms of safety, marshals didn't care much about anything, spectators walked along the road wherever they wanted. However after shakedown things changed quickly and the marshals started to take their work very seriously. Quite a lot of anti-cut poles installed on shakedown, however we found some nice spots to watch. Most of what we saw was uphill on quite grippy tarmac, very different from most of the rally route.
On friday we did the first and third stage on the first loop. Arriving at the first stage we could drive all the way to the tape at the stage. I call fake news on the DirtFish article where they state the organizers did what they could to keep spectators away. (Not the first nor last time the DirtFish website is twisting the facts to fit the story they want to be written.) Everyone was very welcoming, this time marshalls asked all spectators to stay off the road (similar to Rally Finland, polite but to the point). A lot of spectators arrived, and they kept arriving. I've rarely seen this amount of spectators on rallies. Maybe on some stages in Finland or Condroz Rally... Anyway nice action on some fast corners with big cuts. Big difference in terms of driving, some more agressive than others. Kalle Rovanperä was clearly on it, not yet knowing was the last thing we saw from him that weekend. The Fiesta WRC's seemed very loose on the rear end in the cuts, in comparison to others. The same could be seen throughout the rest of the event. When they push the throttle on the exit, the rear end seems to step out more compared to the Yaris and Hyundai. Off to the third stage. On recce we found some interesting spot 1km before the finish of the stage. A long straight ending in a very fast righthander over a sharp crest, which we thought could make a good jump. It was clear to see how they wrote the situation down in their pacenotes. Most drivers were quite calm, a few misjudged how much it would jump, and were very spectacular. From WRC cars only Greensmith jumped quite sideways, while Katsuta was nearly out of the road because his bad line, despite being quite slow on that spot. Gryazin was too enthousiast, jumped sideways landing on the edge of the road, puncturing his front left wheel on the impact. Pajari had a spectacular off, never seen a driver being able to continue his rally after this kind of crash, very lucky!
On the second loop of Friday we went to the first stage again. After the finish we were welcomed by a drinking tent. A lot of people were there, there were several other "parties" going on in the village. Many locals were wearing t-shirts with "WRC Plesivica" printed on it. On stage we visited some technical section which could easily be part of Tour de Corse of Catalunya, with some big cuts added to it. Downhill blind medium right into medium left-cut into flat right into long medium left-cut. There the road was relatively clean before the second loop. However the 0-car wanted to pull of some show, and spun while taking a lot of gravel on the road. Not a fast, but quite spectacular spot. A lot of understeer from the WRC cars, only Ogier seemed not to suffer from it. Off to the last stage of the day then. Arriving through some gravel roads, but they seemed too rough to do with a normal car. We just started to walk when some friendly old farmer came by and picked us up to bring us to the stage. 1,5km on the back of the farmer's cart was quite an adventure. Arrived at some fast section roughly 1,5km before the finish. The tarmac was slippery, the cuts big, gravel thrown on the road. Very spectacular section, fast without a lot of distance between the corners, seeing WRC cars sliding from one corner to the other is quite unusual on tarmac, also for JWRC-cars. On the entry list, only 8 JWRC-cars might look poor, but the level of the drivers is really great I must say, all of them were a joy to watch.
Off to saturday, the first stage had only few access roads, and with the many spectators we opted for some 15km gravel road leading to the middle of the stage, an access road we used again for the second loop. Quite ironic, on the best stage of the rally we chose some of the less interesting places to watch. On the side of Samobor we expected so many spectators we opted not to go there. However, some fast sections with big cuts, not bad after all. By the time the JWRC cars were going through, the road was very littered with dirt and gravel. Off to the last stage of the loop then. A lot of traffic resulted in traffic jams, so we had to change our route. Some fast section on the slippery white stuff some 1,5km after the well-known castle. Very spectacular fast spot, some cars sliding a lot. The stage was interrupted for a while because marshals had to remove spectators on some places...
Second loop was similar. On the last stage of the day we went to a jump in a flat left with a fast right hander behind it (some video of a big moment of one of the Fiesta Rally4's was circulating on the internet, it's that spot). Nice place, some sideways landing for Suninen and Kajetanowicz, most WRC cars took it quite clean. Again a lot of spectators. Also first time of the rally we saw a few spectators with masks. One of them, an old man, was coughing a lot. Despite him having a mask, no one seemed interested to stand anywhere near him.
On sunday we started off with the first stage in the morning, long winding road in the mountains to it. On stage only few spectators, it looked like most chose to opt for the powerstage straight away. The part we visited could easily be part of Rally Catalunya. Grippy tarmac, guard rails, road with sharp edges... Like arriving on a different rally. Two nice places anyway. Lots of difference in driving style between the drivers. Neuville's driving was visibly more aggressive than other WRC cars except Fourmaux. On the second run it didn't take long before Gryazin blocked the road, so we went off to the powerstage. On the powerstage again lots of spectators. At a drink tent some party where locals were playing a song on their accordion, people singing along, very amusing atmosphere. It felt like this covid-thing was already long over and all people had forgotten. On stage we picked a spot with some long overview, at roughly 1/4th of the stage. Some fast blind lefthander (with a bumpy crest right after it) into fast right with big cut. Another fast corner before braking into some kind of chicane ending in a medium right corner. Small differences between the drivers here, everyone seemed to be pushing a lot. Mikkelsen looked quite conservative while his time was extremely fast here. Good place to end the rally.
All in all a fantastic event, and a great region and friendly people everywhere. The locals are very welcoming to the rally, and that's very important for the future. In terms of organization things looked fine, from a spectator's point of view. All they'll have to think about for next editions is that there'll be much more spectators, so they'll need to be well prepared in terms of itinerary, spectator access and safety. Also an interesting note is that now nearly all spectators were just local people who took a chance to have a look. If you have the more dedicated rally fans from Italy, France, Czech Republic, Poland etc visiting the rally, they'll know where they want to go and what they want to see, meaning they're more difficult to manage in a safe way, for organizers.
I'll try to post a few photos tomorrow.
Some photos from the rally:
https://scontent.fbru4-1.fna.fbcdn.n...cb&oe=60B5C5B4
https://scontent.fbru4-1.fna.fbcdn.n...02&oe=60B3BD0B
https://scontent.fbru4-1.fna.fbcdn.n...78&oe=60B4015A
https://scontent.fbru4-1.fna.fbcdn.n...ba&oe=60B4166C
https://scontent.fbru4-1.fna.fbcdn.n...6b&oe=60B3B910
Some more on the facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...61461573865680
Excellent report and great photos, thanks. Let's hope for a crowded rally Croatia in 2022!
As for the spectators, as I already mentioned, COVID regulations in Croatia are much more liberal than in the most of Western Europe, as you probably have seen here. It was to be expected that people will spectate in huge numbers and as you said, organizers were "blind" for that. A week later, we have a steady decline in COVID numbers. As for now, everything seems perfectly fine and there's no sign that rally caused problems on that matter.
Everyone happy.