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As long as manufactures are involved that will always happen. You have the examplte of the TCR cars. When the concept was introduced you had a lot of brands and companies working making cars. Since Hyundai and Lynk&Co. appeared the championship started to be extremely expensive and you almost can see privateers ono the grid. They will end up leaving when they realise that the investment is bigger that what they are gettingt in terms of media return.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Even if more expensive than current R5, a R5+ would certainly cost way less than a Rally1H.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
What mostly puzzles me is in this debate is that suggesting a reasonable R5 upgrade for WRC use is seen as an heresy, while apparently no one is bothered with having the strangest possible layout on ‘22 WRC cars: a WRC+ engine with an expensive (and yet to know how it’ll actually work) Hybrid system, mounted on a ‘buggy’ chassis using R5 transmission and suspensions, all covered by a scale down silhouette body...
Btw, for sure it’s great to have local crews fighting for international events wins, but that only works on regional series, like the ERC; we all know that in the WRC factory teams will always have the edge over privateers, even when running apparently identical cars.
Not R5 transmission and suspension. Simpler than now, but not the same. Scaling down and tubular framework are there to make it easier for manufacturers to jump in if they don't have a car of the right size they want to market in rallying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
R5+ would be cheaper than the 2022 Rally1 hybrid cars, but the question is, would it give any value to the manufacturers?
Are you sure of that? Okay, let's assume that the car cost double down, so you'd have R5+ costing around 600k. I don't see a lot of privateers runing them, as they didn't run the 1.6WRC cars that were in the same cost regionQuote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Have you seen the cars already? Because for me they are still a concept...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
See that's the problem with your concept of R5+. If the local or privateer crews cannot fight for the ralis, and realistically for a place opn the top5 (assuming that you still had at least 3 manu's) why would you scale down on the spectacle of the cars? Would you realistically think that Citroen or Skoda would enter the championship? Or that Toyota would bother to create an R5 on purpose?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
To get bigger number of followers online, they need to utilize the technology that is awailable today.
- Split times, they need to have more splits. The split difference on each driver need to say if he is getting closer or loosing to the best in class. The commentators need to make it exiting, by using time diffs more than today.
- Split screen, so even if there is an interview at stage end you still see the next driver. They can also use it, split horisontally to compare drivers, to see where thy loose and gain.
- Better commentators, that always has an expert commentator, x-driver, that can explain driving styles, tyrechoices, team tactics and so on.
It has been the same since they started All-Live, time to evolve!
I don't think we need more split times than what we have now, the commentators could just be more awake with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
We already have picture in picture for showing the stage end interview at the same time as the next driver footage.
Split screen for comparison isn't as useful as it sounds like, it's difficult to follow two cars at the same time. The differences over the course of a kilometre can be very minimal between the current top drivers.
As for expert commentators, I agree, that's always best when we have an ex-driver or current driver commentating.
But this is just about what value we as paying customers get. You cannot get new followers from improving the service which is completely behind the paywall.
I would introduce new payment options. Something like
- Pay-per-rally. The month system is stupid because some months have more rallies than others. 8 euros per rally?
- Pay-per-stage. If you don't have time to watch all stages, you can just buy credits for stage. Maybe you buy 6 stages for a weekend. One euro per stage?
- Try one stage for free (or maybe half a stage and then you have to pay to continue :D)
- Add sample footage of one All Live stage youtube to show how it is. Right now you have have no samples anywhere except for shakedowns which are always a horrible mess. Stream the first Friday stage on YouTube for free, get people hooked on and start getting new subscriptions before the next stage?
If it’s not the same, it’ll be pretty close, with only 5 speeds and no active diff; https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-2...-need-to-know/Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Btw, a R5 based solution (it could be called R5+ or anything else) was already advanced in January by MSport boss; https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...malcolm-wilson
It’s interesting to notice that Matton and Wilson estimations on Rally1H price are hugely different; probably the real value will be in the middle, close to current WRC cars price as Makinen predicted some time ago.
Why are we talking (again) about things 1 year old, already surpassed by reality???Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
It's funny that Wilson says that the cost cap is 190k for Rally2 and you cannot get one for less than 300k. Business man will speak what it is best for their business. Wilson cannot match the top dollars brought by Toyota and Hyundai to R&D a new rally car, so he "cries" for the cost cap and try to push for a concept that M-Sport have already tested and proved... what an admirationQuote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Apparently it would. Besides MSport, Hyundai also looked in favor of closer to R5 specs, while Toyota seemed always pushing for more expensive features. At the end a compromise was reached, probably by giving MSport green light to use Rally1cars in national champs or by freezing GRE developments in order to control costs, as Hyundai asked.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-k...2-hybrid-move/
I meant manufacturers, not teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Also that article talks only about the engine. A 2022 Rally1 car with an R5 engine would still be very different from an R5 car.
I really don't see the point of this R+ discussion. It's dead and burried idea. Why so much fuss about it?
Then why did you write long posts against it? Even if dead and buried, who knows if it won’t ‘resurrect’ on a near future, in case Rally1H fail to deliver a proper competition…Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Lets do an experiment, with an open mind.
- since very few car sold worldwide have 4wd, FIA and manus say that starting with 4wd cars was a mistake.
- We will revert back to 2wd cars for all rallyclasses.
- Rally1 and Rally2 will be Rear wheel drive
- Rally 3-5 will be front wheel drive.
FIA tech regs kept simple, to keep cost down.
What will happen?
Top Drivers will love it, they rally with Escorts and M3s for fun in their spare time.
Manufacturers will develop cars within a simple tech environment, with little or no electronic gizmos allowed.
Private teams can buy or develop their own cars, no need to get manufacturer Blessing to homologate. All good as long as they pass safety requirements.
So more competitive cars to compete.
More drivers to make a living from rally.
Privat teams will get sponsors to pay the bills and salaries for teams and driving crews.
For us as fans and audience, we would love seing the long slides, and perfect car control on the loose, and trying to stay narrow on asphalt, but not always manage.
Would be fun for all, in my book!
Not this nonsense again, please.
You are boring Mirek, should think you are a bean counter by profession.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Rally is, as all motorsport in the entertainment business, no more and no less. Same as football, or any sport.
A bit of fantasy have never hurt anyone.
This is not a fantasy thread but a thread about WRC future.
If you open a fantasy thread I hereby promise you that I will never ever enter it.
I find RWD cars quite boring to watch tbh. Especially in slow and high speed corners. Slow corners it's just lots of wheelspin and nothing going on, high speed they are just slow as drivers cant push more without fearing they loose control.
FWD are even worse in slow speed, but on tarmac better to watch at high speed.
;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
It's like a broken record; if the WRC series is in good shape and offers manufacturers what they want, they'll sign up. If it doesn't then they won't - at the moment we think (according to Dirtfish) both Toyota & Hyundai have signed up. As have M-Sport - but how much support will Ford bring....??? 4 fully funded manufacturers is the ideal number for the long term. 6,7+ tends to be short lived as a few realise they can't win and pull the plug.
Rallying doesn't inhabit some bubble, it's part of the greater motorsport world; it might help some people to take notice of what's going on in other series; I also think most other series tend to be a bit more proactive towards technology - WRC is quite often left behind.
Hard to agree with you on that one. Many sports can be seen as entertainment once they are mostly a game, but Rally, and motorsport in general, it’s much more than that. Rally drivers don’t ‘play’, they live a true risk by challenging the most demanding roads on powerfull machines that can become unpredictable at any second. I believe it’s that ‘larger than life’ element of Rally that make us following it in the media and, every possible time, to travel hundreds of kms and spend several days under all sorts of weather to watch it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
yeah. agreed. (I think most people here think the same)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
then take away the fanboy glasses and take a step back. It is a sport. the same as a game in the end. especially for non-fan. i guess here we are trying to be less fans and more pragmatic, to forecast the future as realistically as possible.
i guess a chess player, a soccer fan, everyone! with a true passion can give you a million words story about how romantic and best-in-the-world his passion is. i think we are not comparing passions here...
I'm not familiar with other motorsports very much, but at least rallying differs from most conventional sports by being very expensive to run, and the money to run the sport on professional level comes from the marketing budgets of car manufacturers. It's entertainment for sure, but also marketing, very much, more than just the external sponsors like in most sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Sorry mate; hard to follow you. The post is about considering Rally mainly as an entertainment, or not. It has nothing to do with forecasting its future or comparing fans passion. For gods sake.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
really? having a title as "Wrc future?" I was thinking we were talking about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Rally as entertainment argument is just a good part of it, exactly as trying to forecast which direction it will take. I agree that a romantic depiction of braveness is just out of focus.
Maybe you’ve been distracted but this forum is an open debate space and posts don’t need to strictly respect the thread title.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Anyway, once you’re mentioning it, probably what’s missing in this sport promotion is a better way to show that ‘romantic depiction of braveness’, because it’s real and makes thousands going to rally stages, at least to proper ones.
Well right now no one can go to any rally stages, whether on circuit or on roads. But the series pushes on and someone pays the bills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Funny you say this having said that just a few lines above: "Sorry mate; hard to follow you. The post is about considering Rally mainly as an entertainment, or not. It has nothing to do with forecasting its future or comparing fans passion. For gods sake."Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
so can we speak freely, or we have to stick to the post? I'm more confused than distracted...
Let's go on with the real topic: i agree with the post above that is enough a point to continue the discussion. Btw this storytelling of braveness and romanticism fails to represent todays reality, as the new main actor of rallying wants to show something different. Maybe we fan would love that, but manus want to speak to a generic and casual attendee, the one that buys their cars.
Actually wrc is a cheap sport. For a few million dollars you can participate, and for a few tens of millions you can actually get a real shot at a world title.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Many other professional sports have much greater budgets.
We keep seeing brands, from all sectors, using personal stories of resilience from their sponsored athlete’s to promote their products; for sure rally drivers bravery can also have marketing value.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Not really imo, foe this to work you have to know the athlete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
the % of general public that knows rally heroes is very low. you can't compare the mediatic power of rally athletes to soccer or nba...
I've got to be honest, I feel like now is almost* the most despondent I've felt about the future of the WRC. At least in 2009 the only way was up! Back then everyone knew the WRC was in trouble, now it feels like they're sleep walking into a worse situation. Back then we had two manufacturers. Now we essentially have two manufacturers, with M-Sport increasingly feeling like a zombie manufacturer team. But unlike 2009, the two manufactures seem more selfish in a way now. The future WRC car regulations don't seem to be being crafted sensibly given the current circumstances. At least in 2009 there seemed to be more of an understanding of the necessity to support the running of more WRC cars for the benefit of the sport. Back then I didn't feel like M-Sport or Citroen would disappear, but Hyundai seem uncertain to me. I know a lot has gone on this year, but Adamo seemed weird this weekend. M-Sport seemed rather detached from proceedings. Lappi's casual announcement at the end of the Power Stage that he wouldn't be back, though not unpredictable news, was quite striking to me a way.
Listening to Julian Porter talking glowingly about having a few more rallies like Rally Monza was depressing. Rally Monza was a good idea under the circumstances of this year/Covid, which ended up being made much better by unplannable weather intervention. If Porter is as usually on message as anyone on WRC+, the official mouth piece of WRC Promoter, I fear this is the direction the WRC wishes to go. As if that is a surprise. We've already lost so many of the classic rallies. Rallies are getting shorter still. Now we're aspirationally looking at what would once have been considered a joke, WRC rounds becoming glorified single venue events... How low can the WRC go? Is anybody interested in protecting the integrity of the WRC or has that ship long sailed?
This is the first time in a decade that I've felt underwhelmed by the prospect of the following season.
*The main difference between 2009 and now, there's a lot of talented young guys now that could flourish in a revived WRC. Whereas, in 2009, there was only one name, Sebastien... It almost makes the situation worse now though, as we could see so much talent wasted...
Hyundai testing for Monte this week. So at least they seem committed to another season in WRC and not bailing to an electric series.
Ogier is now off The Sniper's christmas card list... ;)
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/1...showcase-evnts
Autosport @autosport
The Monza Rally was an unusual way to end an unusual #WRC season, and while far from ideal, without it the series could have faced serious ramifications. To persuade stakeholders to commit to an uncertain future, Monza was an important showcase.
Anyone have access to this ?
http://www.autosport.com/wrc/feature...-necessary-one
try using outline[dot]comQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
:D ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
It'd be nice if he and Adamo would actually specify what it is that other event organisers are supposed to take from this event, because we all know, when the WRC bubble says jump, most of the organisers will oblige...
The main challenge seemed to be presented by the weather conditions, which also cancelled one stage and indirectly led to another being stopped. The weather probably can't be replicated, thus what is it that we're taking from this event and replicating? To me the likely results will be:
- We wave goodbye to Sardinia, as the WRC finally forces the ACI's hand on returning back to the mainland/Monza.
- We lose at least a day of Rally Catalunya to doing a few laps of Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya and its car parks.
- Wales Rally GB gets a late reprieve with the organisers getting their cheap day(s) at Oulton Park, a venue that'll be "perfect for spectators" but is still in the middle of nowhere with poor access.
Maybe there is something to be taken from Monza, but I can imagine some unfortunate interpretations.
BTW these quotes are directly from the FIA press conference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
https://www.fia.com/news/wrc-s-ogier...s-been-special
Looks something like this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I don't think anyone's doubting Monza served/serves a strong purpose in Covid times.Quote:
Over the years, the Monza Rally Show has brought colour to the close season when our thoughts are usually preoccupied by the dark, wet trudge through winter. It has also provided a mini Race of Champions, bringing stars from different disciplines together - not least the allure of those other-worldly types who race in MotoGP.
Monza without the megawatt star power of Valentino Rossi, without crowds and with little more than a grim determination to draw a line under 2020 was rather different. The sight of WRC cars endlessly pootling around the same muddy stage was unedifying at best. But be in no doubt that this was arguably the WRC's most important event for decades.
Why so important? Well, if Monza hadn't taken place then the WRC would have run less than 50% of its calendar. In the strictest reading of FIA law, the 2020 season wouldn't have happened at all.
That sort of detail can possibly get finessed away with an Act of God amendment or a force majeure clause, but without Monza the WRC may well have been in breach of its TV contracts and this would have been an infinitely bigger blow.
The WRC's host broadcasters do not bring in the sort of riches that Formula 1 commands - one broadcasting insider referred to the numbers involved as 'chicken feed' - but that's not the issue at stake.
The WRC is owned by Red Bull, which wants the maximum number of eyeballs on each event because its branding is plastered over the stages, the service park and most of the drivers. When it stepped in to save the series back in 2012, Red Bull was not acting out of charity. It knew that it had bought a property that could put its branding in the maximum possible number of living rooms worldwide.
Most global sports are trying to make money by selling themselves on pay-per-view. Red Bull makes money from the fizzy drinks that are advertised by the WRC and the strategy appears to be working very well. New records were set by the global audience for the three pre-COVID rounds of the WRC in 2020, leaping by 15% to 242 million viewers across a massive 2,679 broadcast hours.
Quite how the rest of the 2020 season has panned out is anyone's guess, but the 2019 figures make for astonishing reading. In total, 831 million people watched the WRC on TV last year. That is a billion shy of Formula 1's total, but equally it is more viewers than the next three biggest motorsport categories combined.
Quite how we go from the nervous confinement of Monza to the full, sprawling majesty of Monte Carlo in just six weeks is hard to comprehend
Formula E achieved 411 million viewers in 2019. The World Endurance Championship got itself to 255 million by counting Le Mans in both 2018 and 2019. NASCAR notched up 119 million viewers domestically across its 40 events.
Sustaining the WRC's global footprint is therefore fundamental to its future, and the show of faith given in Monza could well be priceless to that end. Nobody, after all, is under any illusions that our path towards the 'new normal' will be straightforward.
It is impossible to believe that the proposed 2021 calendar will run to plan as COVID-19 continues to menace the world. Quite how we go from the nervous confinement of Monza to the full, sprawling majesty of Monte Carlo in just six weeks is hard to comprehend.
For broadcasters to commit to that uncertain future, a show of faith was required and it is to be hoped that Monza delivered, because it was far from ideal in every other respect. The travelling circus had to expose itself to performing in Lombardy: one of the worst-hit regions in Europe during the COVID-19 crisis, where the number of deaths is currently at the same level that it was back in March.
Confining the teams and much of the running within the perimeter at Monza was sensible, if dull. But then, when the field was briefly able to stretch its legs in the mountains, crews found themselves trying to guess tyre choices and road conditions while their teams were stuck in the 'bubble' at the Autodromo.
The image of a marshal at the start of SS11 with his hand-written warning 'Maybe snow in the last 4km' will live long in the memory - all the more bitterly in the memories of Elfyn Evans and Scott Martin, of course.
"I think in what's probably going to be the hardest year, I hope, that we all have to ever go through, we've all done a fantastic job to pull together and make sure that we get these events running," said M-Sport team principal Richard Millener.
"And, yes, maybe they haven't been perfect or what we want from World Rally and what we expect, but I think we have to be proud of what we did in really difficult conditions."
The works teams are better insulated than M-Sport by having their budgets set in advance, but that has not made the battle to complete a meaningful season any easier.
"It's amazing to think what everyone has done to try to finish the season," said an emotional Hyundai team boss Andrea Adamo, who achieved his stated aim in defending the manufacturers' title. "I know what has been ahead of this, I spent difficult days. I'm not going to lament myself, but lots of tension, we had to justify our involvement."
At every level, the WRC community should be proud of what it has collectively achieved in 2020. Let's hope it brings new rewards in better days ahead.
On the topic of Monza:
I too was thinking how interesting it was with rain, gravel parts etc on the circuit on Friday compared with the usual superspecials where everyone ends within 2s and only interesting thing is whether someone does a stupid mistake (looking at Meeke in 2017 GER, Neuville 2017 Sweden, Latvala in Poland 2009, Hirvonen Finland 2004...)
So when Tanak said on Friday evening that if anything is more interesting than this he would like to see it I was laughing like most other people.
And then we got onto normal stages and already on the first one with the new layer of slush at the end it immediately got more interesting than whole of Friday. In the afternoon it reached another level completely.
Guess we needed that to put the "excitement" of circuit stages into perspective.
-----------------------
Sure Monza served its purpose, after all until a week before the start it was actually very likely that only the circuit stages would be done.
What could be done imo is to wastly improve the super specials using the ideas at Monza. Great Orme is in a way already an SSS of sorts. So 1-2 longer "superspecials" per rally would be quite fine for me. If the service park is at a circuit it can be set around it. So much better than superspecials with 3 donuts and 2 corners...