While this is true, he has also got 18 wins which shows he has had real, top level speed that few others have.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
But booy does he like to crash as well.
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While this is true, he has also got 18 wins which shows he has had real, top level speed that few others have.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
But booy does he like to crash as well.
Re the future of Citroen and Ogier... yes it could be the end for Citroen if he leaves. Or Citroen could just pull out anyway seeing tough competition from the two Asian teams.
But... remember Abu Dhabi - they said they would return in 2020.
Their sponsorship could pay for a 3rd or even 4th car. Then Citroen could find another driver bringing budget and they could end up with a really viable team to fight for the titles.
Or Abu Dhabi don't return at all...
I don´t remember that "Abu Dhabi" mentioned "Citroen" when they said "would return 2020"...
They could sponsor some other ...
Or if they will ever return...Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
Qatar sponsorship back with M-Sport? Yes please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Got Mail
Just read a story saying Ogier's contract with Citroen prevents him driving for another team if he leaves before it ends. So he would have to sit out 2020 if he leaves now.
Toyota move is not gonna happen.
Right, only if Citroen would call it quits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Chicken and egg.. Citröen won't quit if Ogier stays.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Who knows, new leadership, new collaborations...VW in 2016 is a great example.
+1 thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I very much doubt it. Nasser Al-Attiyah said this in Spain:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomhlord
A Qatar backed 'Junior' Toyota team could be an interesting proposition. Rovanperä, Katsuta, Loubet? (Already Qatar sponsored this year), with Al-Attiyah doing the likes of Kenya, Turkey, Sardinia... Looks good to me!Quote:
“I wish to do this race because it looks fit for us. We know Safari from longtime and now its back. I think we have a good chance to do since we plan to do a few WRC events if we have time,” he said.
“We have a good relation with the Toyota team and Tommi, so we can do events with a Toyota Yaris next season,” said Al-Attiyah.
No reason why Abu Dhabi/Al Qassimi couldn't go back to M-Sport though. ;)
Info on Insta from Italy
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIyuJB_X...pg&name=medium
Guestimate:
Citroen: Ogier & Lappi
Hyundai: Tanak, Neuville, Sordo/Loeb
Toyota: Evans, Meeke, Latvala/Katsuta/Kalle rotate car 3 & 4
MSport: Suninen... Paddon/Mikkelsen/Breen/Ostberg...?
Did I forget anyone?
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Contracts are just useless pieces of paper if people are prepared to pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
It will cost them many millions, but if they really want ogier and he wants them, they can have him.
So they're useless but it still requires millions to get rid of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
I still struggle to figure out why on Earth would 1) Toyota pay millions to buy-out Ogier's current contract (and pay additional millions to Ogier for his services in 2020) and 2) Ogier switch to a team for which no-one with options seems to be willing to work for? Yes, the car is quick, that we've seen, but there are signals it's no longer the monster it was with the bigger rear wing. And as Ogier has said many times, 2020 will be his last season in WRC - why would he play such a big gamble?
They want him so they can win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
He wants them because it’s still a faster car than the Citroen.
Well.. okay, I counted 2017 also as full season (he did 12 rallies out of 13)Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
What part of it do you not understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
The police will not come to put tommi and ogier in jail if they break the contract. It will either be setteled internally, or it will go to a judge who will put a price on it.
And if toyota want to win a title they need better drivers than what they are left with. They need ogier.
And for ogier staying at citroen is perhaps an even bigger gamble than going to toyota. With the current c3 he will never be world champion, and there is no way to know if the car will get on the same level as the competition next year. With the toyota and hyundai budget, it is unlikely that citroen will catch up. Most likely they will just fall ever further behind.
I'm quite sure that company like Toyota won't touch anything that can have legal consequences. Especially if it's something as serious as breach of contract. The contractual buy-out clauses usually call for quite substantial amounts of €. Just my guess, but I would assume that in case Ogier we're talking about seven figures. Maybe just, but anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
What comes to the claim of Ogier never being a champ with the C3, I think it's quite an overstatement. Yes, they couldn't match Tänak and Toyota (especially Tänak IMO) this year, but it's not like he's heading into the new season against the Hyundai's etc. with a 205 Rallye.
In a nutshell: if Citroen pulls the plug, then yes, Ogier might very well end up at TGR. In all other scenarios, no way.
I´ve been wrong before, but JML probably drive 3rd car full season at Toyota. As Kalle will only drive part of 2020, he and Takamoto having 4th car.
He's been in the WRC for 5 years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by er88
I'm not sure there's anything to be gained by another year in WRC2.
Where do you keep getting this from? Are you choosing to deliberately ignore the reports that Kalle will drive a full season for Toyota?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
From where did you get that?Quote:
Originally Posted by er88
I think it can be big mistake give him that responsibility.
David Evans has written it in numerous articles this year that Kalle will do all events as part of the main Toyota team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Maybe without Tanak and no top driver on massive salary they might run 4cars, but Kalle isn't going to be sharing with Katsuta. He will do a full season.
Makinen has also been quoted saying Katsuta's program is dependant on Japan, but said he can see him doing either all the European events + Japan, or a full season. So clearly won't be sharing a car with Kalle.
So taking rumors into account it maybe looks like this:
Hyundai: Tanak, Neuville, Loeb/Sordo and presumably one other driver on at least one rally, maybe Breen and driving the R5 in the WRC2 team?
Citroen: Ogier, Lappi
Toyota: Evans, Meeke or Latvala, Rovanpera + Katsuta in "junior car" + maybe Al-Attiyah on Safari and maybe other "rough" rounds?
Ford: Suninen, possibly Greensmith and Tidemand on occasional rounds.
I don't think Citroen will retire and so Ogier will stay there, they have plenty of updates coming next year so it may not be so bad to stay there. He has a good chance as Tanak and Neuville may take points off each other. Each car has certain strong and weak events but now for Tanak and Neuville those will be the same, before they were not always fighting directly.
I guess Ford is waiting to see what happens and then take whoever is left without a drive and get a good deal from them. Maybe they could take Latvala or Meeke, whoever is dropped by Toyota.
For me the dark horse in this is Mikkelsen, I think he was doing well in the Polo (helped by the car of course) but since then he has struggled in the Citroen and Hyundai. Maybe switching to Ford he will find a car that suits him more and might be a surprise.
D.Evans has been right but Kalle himself has said that he doesn´t want full season...Quote:
Originally Posted by er88
That´s the reason why some here ignore other reports.
And yes, it´s possible that Kalle is doing full season.
Katsuta is not part of "official" TGR but Kalle will be, so if Kalle do part season, he is not sharing it with Katsuta.
Ok thanks, wasn't aware at all Kalle had said that.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
I think it would be beneficial for him to do a full season, get knowledge of all events in a world rally car. However I would run him as a 4th car, take away the pressure of having to think of manufacturers points in his first season.
When has he said this? ��Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
Bit hard to do full season when he's in the army maybe? I'm sure he gets special treatment but stillQuote:
Originally Posted by er88
I'm sure if his government were prepared to give him special permission to take his driving test a year earlier than the law permits, they will give him a few weeks off here and there to participate in top level rallying.Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruNorway
He sure will.Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruNorway
First time I heard it during Rally Finland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Essaj
And few times after that.
few things to consider
Ogier, will he flout his contract, ie by taking a test drive in Toyota, in the hope he get fired?
does that leave him a free agent.
what if he does that, and then doesn't like the Toyota?
is Ogier as fast as Tanak? my answer is no.
therefore if Ogier was in Toyota this year, he would not have won the championship either?
what if the Toyota isn't as strong as he thinks? it was Tanak making it look good.
Toyota are not going to pay Citroen a break fee, Ogier will have to pay that, which could be a years Citroen wages, which means he drives the toyota for net zero money (excluding bonuses)
Citreon will never release Ogier, if that want to stay in WRC in 2020. They are now maybe convinced they have a good car, with the upgraded aero, or at least better than it was.
The rules are stabilized for a few years now... you will see the performance of the cars converging
Meeke 2nd year in Yaris could be a threat to Ogier, at least on speed, maybe not consistency. He was match for Tanak on a few rallies. Latvala wouldn't be a threat to Ogier, he has been there 3 years now, there is no room for improvement for JML. What if Roverpera shows them all up on a couple of events?
Citroen maybe will pull out after 2020. If that is the case, they will not be distracted by developing a new 2021 car, unlike the others.
My view is Ogier is bettering staying where he is. If he goes to Toyota and it doesnt work out.. its Ogiers looks bad. If he stays in the C3, he can still be the one that 'turned it around', if is doesnt work in 2020 in C3, "its a dog" as we all know.
Getting fired (due to apparent breach of contract) doesn't make you a free agent.Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
I'm only saying, it depends how the contract is worded. "if driver DECIDES to leave.." is different than being fired..Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
Whatever the exact wording on the contract is, it for sure won't allow such option where the driver (even if it's Seb II himself) would be free just to jump ship like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
We had that precedent last year when Meeke was sacked. We had a complete news blackout and no comment from Kris or Citroen, and it appeared he was unable to get a drive in the wrc for the remainder of his contract.Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
I spoke to Desborough last summer, and asked him if there was any news or comment from Kris. He told me back then with the caveat of "between you and me" hence why I didn't mention it on here, that Kris was suing Citroen. Take from that what you will, but I think it may have been to try and be free from any contract so he could persue a drive elsewhere.
Yeah, it gets weird when a contract prevents you from earning a living. I've had such contracts with previous employers (non-compete etc) and they can always be broken, but in Ogier's case it is different since he is not fired from Citroen like Meeke was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
Yes there are loopholes, where a contract states you can't go and work for a rival, or within a certain distance in the same field of work, there are also laws regarding being prevented from working for a living that can counteract the contract clauses.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
Only basing this on WRC2017's theory about Ogier (or his wife) doing something that forces Citroens hand.