We can talk down Rally2s and sing the virtues of hybrid cars with Frankenstein prototype bodyshells all we like, but has there actually been any talk of new manufacturers joining under the proposed new rules? That’s the key thing surely.
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We can talk down Rally2s and sing the virtues of hybrid cars with Frankenstein prototype bodyshells all we like, but has there actually been any talk of new manufacturers joining under the proposed new rules? That’s the key thing surely.
One advantage of spaceframe prototypes is that those don't need manufacturers for anything. You can make such class free to enter for whatever team no matter what relationship it has with any stock manufacturer. Again same thing what we have in Dakar or many circuit series.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
I am well avare that it's something going directly against rallying herritage but at some point it's necessary to think about certain transformation to keep the sport attractive in the future.
The problem is that, apparently, only 2 manus are now interested on a whole new top tier category and having 2 manus is simply too short for any credible top motorsport series, as the WRC itself experienced on the late 00's.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Besides, there's urgency to bring the Hybrid label to Rally and the announced Rally2 mild hybrids seems to be a easy and cheap way to do it (for sure it'll take less time and money to adapt a eTurbo to current R5's than turn WRC cars into plug-in hybrids).
Btw, with a specific Rally2+ class as the main WRC category, manus would have the chance to improve R5's speed and reliabilty without hurting the prices and specs of the Rally2 cars used in national series.
Don't tell me that you actually believe in this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
There's room to keep Rally2 in national or regional series and have an upgraded Rally2+ (or Super Rally2) category just for the WRC.
I think we must be ready to give away some aspects of the sport we have now with the current cars in order to save the series. There's only bad choices, and we must choose the least bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Where do you get the impression that Rally1 cars will be slower than Rally2 cars?
How many manufacturers are interested in running the series with Rally2 cars? I don't think we have confirmation from any manufacturers on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
True - and I don't buy the idea of R5+. If you make it different/upgraded, costs arise , it will be limited to a number of "selected" (works ?) teams, and i agree that then there may be no point in moving away from Rally1Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
It is either you keep it as is, with two well separated class, with tier 1 reserved for the happy few (whichever Manu wants to invest), or you "downgrade" to basic R5 (with eturbo if you want a green label) that everyone can afford. The championship is then mostly run for private / works-supported entries. In other words, it is either WEC, or GT3.
There is no point in debating "what could be". WEC at its peak with 3 full works team + multiple works teams running the second class (GTEPro) was awsesome. And so was WRC a few years back with 4 works team fighting tooth and nail. But today's WEC (with now only a single top team and a diwndeling number of works GTEPro teams) may give an hindsight of were WRC is heading is Matton and the FIA boys remain stubborn ...
I would say this is a reflection on how the world has changed over the last decade, and even more so during the last two years, rather than FIA's decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by djip
There's no confirmation once running Rally2 (ideally in Rally2+ mode) as the WRC top category isn't still under consideration, but it certainly has a larger potential to attract more manus than Rally1 Hybrids now has.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
MSport and Citroen (the C3 continues to be developed at Versailles and it's Citroen who's paying PHSport to run Ostberg) are already running Rally2 cars, Toyota is developing the Yaris and Hyundai and Skoda would get the perfect chance to promote their new models ('21 i20 and '22 Fabia), at least on a semi-official way (supporting top private teams).
Btw, let me ask you the other way around: do you really believe that it's viable to start Rally1 Hybrids with only 2 manus involved?
Yeah - agreed that we seemingly only have bad choices now. I was questioning where in the thread there was a consensus that the new format was going to be 'better and cheaper' according to Wyler. I thought the new Rally1 would be more expensive, especially with the hybrid element.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I'm not sure where I said I thought Rally1 would be slower that Rally2 - I must have got my words mixed up if I did.
On a side note: I didn't realise the implications of s space framed chassis, i.e. that it may allow for more entrants and potentially cheaper costs.
This sounds like a lot of petrolhead logic. It feels like I'm talking to walls, but I'm repeating my points which I've already said in previous posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
- Developing, renting and selling Rally2 cars is business of the racing departments, which doesn't require budget from the manufacturer, like running a whole WRC season would
- The drivers in WRC2 teams are mostly bringing budget in, not being paid by the manufacturer (not sure about Østberg though)
- Skoda and Citroen just quit their factory teams in rallying. What makes you believe they would return?
- I don't believe that the manufacturers want to put money in marketing their ICE cars in rallying
- Even if we slap on hybrid systems onto the Rally2 cars, it's a problem for the manufacturers that the street models of these cars are mostly not hybrid.
No, it doesn't sound good, but 2 is more than 1 or 0.Quote:
Btw, let me ask you the other way around: do you really believe that it's viable to start Rally1 Hybrids with only 2 manus involved?
At this moment it looks like Škoda withdrew even from its home national championship here in Czechia for 2021. It's said it would only support privateers.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Never said there was consensus, just saying we are reflecting on this, as Fia and manus are doing. How to make rally1 better and cheaper. Every idea is good, if about rally1 specs. I just "ruled out" bringing rally2 as top class cause doensn't seem the way thing's are going in the button room, we discussed it already a lot here, and -simply- the topic was about rally1 class.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
By the way: if we talk about pumping rally2 with power, aero &performance, we are basically talk about rally1, a different thing than rally2.
Agreed on space frame chassis, one of the viable idea people is discussing! : )
Rally1 will have a hybrid system, space frame construction, common safety cage and GRE engine. The body shell can be scaled down. These are the major conceptual differences to Rally2, which is modified from a production car.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
However, the cost and performance of a pumped-up Rally2 car could be close to a Rally1 car. Lots of unknowns.
Sorry mate, but you're missing the most important point: motorsport budgets are being slashed by the manus and each series must make overall costs more competitive and attractive.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
For sure some expenses (staff, logistics, consumable) will cost more or less the same no matter what car is used, but the development and running costs (way higher than drivers salaries) are directly linked to the tech level of the cars.
High-tech Rally1 cars costing over €600k (their hybrid system alone was priced around 150k) will certainly make manus think twice when compared to Rally2 cars price (largely below 300k).
Btw, mild hybrids are becoming current in any car segment.
exactly. what's the point in evolving rally2 in something (current) rally1-ish?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
The point is get a better and cheaper rally1... (that was only for T16!) :)
I beg to disagree here, I would claim the difference between Rally1 and Rally2 cars doesn't make that much of a difference in a yearly budget of a WRC team. It's more dramatic for privateers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
A tyre, a liter of gasoline, a night at a hotel, a flight, monthly salary of an employee, headquarters, service park buildings, a day of testing - everything costs the same, no matter if it's WRC or R1 car.
Let's assume a season with Rally1 costs 100 money units for a manufacturer and the same season with Rally2 costs 75 money units. Do they invest the 75 in something they don't want/need to promote (ICE's, car models without hybrid), or 100 in something they do want to promote (hybrids, street models with hybrids)?
The two top Ford Mustang Mach E 1400 vids have 6.9 mil views in total:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
https://youtu.be/4-7jBLqSlzg
What you posted is just an enlarged version of a road-side board and clearly doesn't have large ambitions. Even more funny that it's using pictures from motorsport to promote the car.
That event was not about the youtube video but about the event in Abu Dhabi... Think about it please, far far majority of youtube views are from teenagers and schoolchildren who are in no way customers for Taycan. The people living in or visiting Abu Dhabi definitely are.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
For sure it's harder for privateers but the €/km cost difference of the cars will always be there, no matter who's running them. You've to consider the price difference of a GREngine or that of a transmission, suspension or any simpler, yet improved, part of a WRC car, regardind R5's, and besides the production costs of the components there's also their wear and rebuild expenses. At every test or rally day all those price differences will be reflected on each car running costs, becoming huge at the end of a season. The same applies to development.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I believe no one is asking to make Rally2 cars to be like Rally1 cars; Rally2 are already close to pre-2017 WRC's performance but they cost only half of what a 2016 WRC was costing at the time. They mostly need to improve their reliability, changing some parts that are too close to production; it wouldn't take a fortune to do it and Rally2+ could work as a sensible Rally2 upgrade, a bit like Rally4/Rally5 cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
But at the same time some of the components will last longer, like the GRE engine. It was estimated that the cost of using Rally2 engines would be equal to using five times more expensive GRE engines, because you would need five times more of Rally2 engines during a season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
I know that using Rally2 cars would be somewhat cheaper, you don't need to tell me that. I'm just not convinced that manufacturers are interested in putting down that money to promote something that's not in their marketing preference.
I might be wrong though. We will never be able to say which one is better because we cannot have both classes be the main class at the same time. If one fails, we can always say that the other would have succeeded.
Thinking further, I think M-Sport would be the company that would benefit the most from going to Rally2 as the main class. They operate on a smaller budget than other teams and they would get direct promotion for the rally cars they sell the most and they are not relying on manufacturer funding or promotion plans.
Ha Ha - Still waiting ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
not a matter of asking for it. it is way simpler. i ll try to say that again: if u upgrade a rally2, it will become some sort of rally1 type car. that's all. my point is: work on a real rally1 development, not a mild copy that you call rally2+. i understand that is made on budget premises, but manus already told it will make no difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
by the way, manus will invest same amount of money as rally1 in development and extras that will not really share with customers. privateers will remain a second tier completely as for '16 wrc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
me too!
hardest of the tasks (expecially in this global pandemic)
then we can discuss what's the meaning for "better". i mean a regulation that help mantain this level of resonanceas a sport (or increase) and make manus (expecially new ones) happy to invest in it.
I genuinely feel like this thread and all the questions and potential solutions it has proposed, is probably not far off what the promotors and FIA are going over themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Feels like nobody knows what the best solution is for the sport right now.
I wonder how it works behind the scenes. Are the promoters and FIA considering getting potential manufacturers and gauging their interest in the series if the regulations become X, Y or Z, or have they really committed to the 2022 regs in the hope that there may be new manus join the current crop.
Trouble is, as we all know, that current crop is not looking as committed as they said they would be when the regs were drawn up.
I just can’t see how they can plough on knowing they are potentially going to lose Hyundai as a team, never mind the fact that nobody else seems interested.
If this is about saving face, then now isn’t the time. Hopefully they’ll see that they are going down the wrong path and start consultation to understand how manufacturers would use rallying successfully as a marketing vessel and use this to pave the way.
The environmental aspect and now the pandemic have massively changed the face of motoring worldwide and rallying looks like it’s going to take a huge hit unless it can find a way to be part of motoring’s bigger picture going forward and not some private club for enthusiasts.
This really is crisis time for the WRC and all indicators say that if they don’t make some drastic changes, they’ll get left behind.
First of all, I'm quite sure the manufacturers have their voice in the meetings when new regulations are thought up.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Also, this Hyundai thing is fairly new. Earlier this year Adamo spoke positively about the new rules https://dirtfish.com/motorsport/wrc-...has-ever-seen/
Also interesting quote from him:
If someone at the top of Hyundai (the car company, not the rally team) decides that they are not supporting rallying anymore, it doesn't matter if they should be driving Rally1, Rally2 or Rally5 cars.Quote:
Adamo speculated that the focus on hybrid technology may increase once the world has exited the pandemic, or hybrids may become the “last kick” to keep the large automotive names involved in motorsport at all.
https://www.facebook.com/17548727014...4011169503102/
We need these cars, no manufacturer teams and budget cap. Nothing else is needed. I know I'm only dreaming but this is a dream scenario.
Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk
If the manufacturers (and I assume you mean non-current entrants) have their voice heard, then where are they all? And why seemingly have the FIA come up with a set of regulations that only Toyota seem to want to commit to now?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Also, it's completely irrelevant if the Hyundai thing is new or not. It's up to them if they change their mind and up to them when they change it (if that's what they are going to do).
Hyundai have been in on the LMDh discussions for a while - it's only recently the WRC media have known about it.
While there is a great deal of uncertainty for all motorsport, as usual the WRC is looking like it might be the worst hit; Toyota and M-Sport - with Hyundai possibly off and nobody else. Not the basis for a sustainable series going forward.
Good, the wrc can go back to like the old days 40 plus years ago. If the local driver turned up in a Ford he had built in his own shed turned up at a WRC event, he could score points for Ford and himself.
No, it's the current manufacturers that get in the FIA meetings. I also remember that in 2018 or so Skoda also got the invite to the meetings, and that raised a rumor of them startin a WRC plan (who knows, maybe they had that plan back then but then something in economy changed).Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
As for new manufacturers, again we can only guess but I would assume mr. Matton and the manufacturer would have a phone call or something before planning anything?
Not completely irrelevant. All the current manufacturers had agreed on the new rules, but now all of a sudden someone at Hyundai decided otherwise. Thus the rules are not to blame.Quote:
Also, it's completely irrelevant if the Hyundai thing is new or not. It's up to them if they change their mind and up to them when they change it (if that's what they are going to do).
The uncertain element remains if the new regs were designed to appease those currently involved, or with the input of new potential entrants. Either way, they don’t look like they are enticing anyone, apart from a Cumbrian that runs his business of the back of involvement in the sport and a Japanese guy who’s passion it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
And you know what I mean about Hyundai, I’m not saying it’s the rules to blame, I’m saying it’s irrelevant if they showed interest in the past and now they don’t. Fact is, it’s looking like they are not interested anymore.
there are technical time tough, u can't change a reg a year because some manus change their mind in months time...Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
But if the top level of the sport is more accessible to privateers that’s a good thing right? Especially at a time when direct manufacturer backing is more shaky.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
The proposals are for mild hybrid systems to be introduced to Rally2 cars from 2023. I’m sure that could be brought forward a year without too much trouble.Quote:
Let's assume a season with Rally1 costs 100 money units for a manufacturer and the same season with Rally2 costs 75 money units. Do they invest the 75 in something they don't want/need to promote (ICE's, car models without hybrid), or 100 in something they do want to promote (hybrids, street models with hybrids)?
Manufacturers are not interested in mild hybrid as the top class.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
And the Rally2 models don’t have hybrid street versionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
AFAIK the Fiesta already has a hybrid version and the I20 will soon have one aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
The Fabia Im not sure about but that model has been left in a limbo by VAG group for some years now.