You need the manufacturer to homologate a car
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You need the manufacturer to homologate a car
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
The Rally1 manufacturer or the manufacturer of the series production vehicle it is based on?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Because if you mean the Rally1 manufacturer, I'd still be confused why the Mitsubishi R5 struggled when there was a business case for building the car in the first place.
If you mean the series-prod, you mean to disagree with wyler? I don't know if your like means you agree.
you need a manufacturer but has it happens with those same f1 teams to have engines by others, i don't think that's the problem stopping them.
i mean, with money enough, i assume that manufacturer can give homologation permits.
even the same ford, can maybe have more than 1 team, right?
maybe something like a dirtfish subaru team usa by haas could also be...
The manufacturer of the production road car has to sign/agree to the homologation papers for it to be used in a FiA series. The Mirage R5 didn't receive it, and ran in national events. There is still one run on BTRDA events here in the UK. Mitsubishi had no interest in the Mirage R5, for whatever reason and the car wasn't internationally homologated.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
I'm not sure why people are using a comparison with F1 constructors; it's slightly different. Some are owned by a car manufacturer; others are solely in business to race in F1, without selling production cars.
The WRC is a motorsport series using cars based on production cars, built by mainstream manufacturers......That's not likely to change unless the FiA decide to.
It seems if there was a rule saying you need to place the koh-i-noor on the dark side of the moon, folk will still argue the cost is the issue. Thankfully Andy has put us right on Mitsubishi, that money is sometimes not the problem. This manufacturer rule is simply out of date and potentially throttling engagement.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
I brought F1 up because CNC machines and energy drinks are going racing, constructing their own race cars without need for building thousands of non-identical road cars. I get there's still engine suppliers etc, it's not the ideal. Point is, WRC was based on production cars, but it's not now, so why is everybody imposing this 'road car manufacturers'. Actually, I'm wondering over these recent posts if consensus is that the manufacturers championship is for 'rally car manufacturers'.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Anyway, I'll bet the FIA will realise this, and we'll get Dirtfish Haas Team USA using any suppliers they want before seeing Rally2 as flagship class. IMO it's certainly in the best interests of promoting and growing the global sport as we often discuss.
i think you misunderstood what i wrote...i'm exactly saying money is not the issue, and we could have others like m-sport building cars with manus approval as easy as signing a paper (look at xtreme e, team have no problem to have a fixed car model, the just care the pr).Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
point is, opposite to yours, no one is interested in wrc promotion nowadays. that's the problem, not the regulation. cnc machines and energy drinks just don't care about having a team in wrc like they do in f1, because is not marketing worthy. to have dirtfish haas team we need them to have an interest in doing so, not a manufacter to sign papers. if not, we would have plenty of articles on dirtfish saying that they need a manus for their team.
topic 2022 WRC News & Rumours
There’s no current news anywayQuote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Some rally manufacturer teams have been subdivisions of the actual car company (like Hyundai is and Citroen was). Sometimes an external rally team is hired to do the job, but the car company provides the budget (like Subaru/Prodrive and Ford/M-Sport until 2012). Toyota Gazoo started in 2017 by ordering the operations from Tommi Mäkinen Racing, but last year they bought the operations back to in-house.
Current M-Sport is a more rare case since M-Sport’s financial side is completely independent from Ford and they have their own business models (pay drivers, car renting, car selling, spare parts etc) that other teams don’t share. Yes, they are married with Ford who agrees to homologate their cars and gives some support in form of car development, but no actual budget.
So, could Williams or another racing team achieve what M-Sport does and build a Rally1 car? Yes, but only with co-operation of a car manufacturer. It would have to resemble a street model and be homologated with manu’s agreement.
If there's much more to discuss I agree it needs a new/existing philosophy thread as this has moved on from pointing out what's holding back privateers. Folk can see where I am, so I'll close by pointing out that the Bahraini state paired up with Prodrive for no other real purpose than to build their own car and go rallying and you can tell it's not in WRC because that's an impossible situation. It should be possible and that's something the rule makers could at least consider.
I think people need to be more realistic about the amount of money that Ford are giving M-Sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Just because it's not as much as he got in the past - or as much as they would like - doesn't mean it's not still a sizeable amount of cash....
All those Ford logos aren't being given to them as a gesture of goodwill. Plus, where do you think all the Castrol cash comes from....?
But it's still more like a sponsorship than an ownership.
As for Castrol, even the full-factory teams have external sponsors with similarly sized decals. But Red Bull must be bigger for this season.
Ford (Performance) give M-Sport a lot of support in developing their car and get their logos on it in return. But they dont give them cash and certainly dont provide funding to pay for the drivers - that's down to M.Wilson and his company.
Castrol have sponsored M-Sport cars for many years. This isn't directly because of Ford but Ford do 'recommend' Castrol / BP oil and fuels in general.
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/t...nged/10333742/
As previously reported in Italian media outlets, Alpine Skoda & Opel are the manufacturers in question.
I know the prospect of electric rally cars is not that appealing, however if the series wants to become relevant again and draw attention from multiple manufacturers, it ought to go full electric. Like it or not, the transition to full electric for road cars is coming, and splashing cars around multuple terrains, in all wetather conditions would be a PR dream to demontrsate to customers the value proposition of the technology. Race on sunday, buy on monday at its best...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
I'll miss the excitment of screaming cars in the middle of the night of the 70's, the pure speed of Gr.B and recent-specs cars, but the writing is on the wall ....
Two big problems though...
1. Existing battery life does not allow for rally distances
2. Near silent electric rally cars could alienate the old fanbase (and be dangerous)
1. changable batteries will do the trickQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
2. but can also bring new fans, they can also mount speakers and simulate grB sounds ;)
1. Is BS and you know it. Check out how often Baumschlager has to charge and compare it with refuels for petrol rally cars, Baumschlager himself says it's like driving Lancers. Some changes to itenary might be needed but that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
2. Yes the cars need some sound, Baumschlager, Paddon and now Corsa-e are all testing different solutions. Managable problem.
Stating that electric cars definitely won't come by 2025 (as stated by someone in the article) makes sure no new manus show up.
Well, they won't turn up before 2025 because these current cars are a fixed 3-year homologation....Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Hydrogen cell technology overcomes battery size, power & storage issuesQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Swapping batteries is like cheating if they're trying to promote this tech for the public. This would just show people that battery range is still a problem and put them off switching to electric. Everyone knows EVs works and the acceleration is great but it's the battery range that needs proving.
WRC has been always something where new technologies have been tested. Battery technology is old technology and and does not have sustainable future in current format (I say it as a part time geologist - my PhD study was on the borderline of ecology and geology). If we take all known geological resources, we can change all the cars to battery technology, but there are no more resources to replace all those batteries in the future, unless some new technology will be invented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk2 RS2000
One of the most important law I studied at school was the law that was telling "the more weight you carry, the more energy you need." So, for me it is very strange that so far this law is ignored. We carry hybrid unit, we carry batteries and in total, depends on the car, proper Tesla battery weight is between 400-500 kg. and now imagine, millions of cars are carrying this extra weight.. does not sound very sustainable?
MK2 is right, we need concentrated energy. Hydrogen is on of them Currently Toyota Mirai fuel tank weight is around 80 kg, fuel capacity is around 5 kg, so, the weight in car is 85 kg. And you can cover approximately 500 km with this tank. For me, this is the way to develop. Hydrogen can be produced when the energy is cheap (too much wind or sun energy, high peaks of nuclear energy production and low consumption at the same time). So, we don't need to carry "power station" in each car, energy can be produced in centralized locations and we use only concentrated fuel.
At the same time it is hard to achieve, car manufacturers have made their investments in electric cars. Normal investment cycle is 30 years, 10 years you develop and spend money, next 10 years you earn back your investment, and final 10 years you earn profit.
WRC does not need to follow it, we can be innovative for once and not use 100+ years old technology and say it is new:)
Yes, battery technology is old technology, but it is nowhere near developed to its full potential whereas ICE technology has reached 99,9% of it's possibilities. Battery tech is already showing promising solutions and I am sure as material technology is also helping bring innovative solutions we will see much more energy dense packs in the future. Car industry "big money" has supported battery tech far too short period to call it a dead end. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are also in principle electric cars which carry power plant with them to make electricity from H2 to store it shortly in battery, then use it with electric motor. That's a big issue with H2 in transportation, it has a lot of losses of energy compared to only battery powered cars and it makes cars more complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
Yes, WRC hasn't been innovative for a long time; it tends to follow what other series do with technology. One of the reasons it can't attract manufacturers......who will go elsewhere to demonstrate new technology.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
Yes I know:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanelv
To me the next evolution would be proper solution to use H2 directly (basically like H2 powered ICE, to say it in a very simple manner). That would be proper innovation for me, lets see, I am not an engine engineer, so far I stick to weather, I know this field slightly better.
But I think we have gone too far from news in this topic ;)
I work in the UK gas industry and there is a lot of development towards using hydrogen in the network so it could be within a few years a lot more availability of hydrogen across the country.
We currently have two hydrogen cars at our office, but you have to remember the nearest filling point from here is approx 70km away…. :crazy:
Take the time to check out the developments in the heavy vehicle industry. For example trucking and fork lifts using electric motors. Powered by hydrogen cells now becoming well developed in Asia and the USA There are a lot of things happening outside of EuropeQuote:
Originally Posted by Tanelv
The happiest people with electric vehicles in my assessment have been used Nissan Leaf owners who live outside small towns (20 to 30 km commute distance drive). Have their own home solar systems to charge the Nissans with.
The 2nd gen Toyota Mirai weighs 1920-1950kg an increase of up to 100kg over the first gen Mirai. The 2nd gen Mirai is heavier than the current edition standard range Tesla Model 3.(1835kg)
I have heard of people driving Teslas into the ground, that these people went back to driving gasoline/ petrol cars.
Any shift to new tech will involve winners and losers.
Ballard and fuel cell buses, Scotland. https://youtu.be/91ZCI9f_nmI
Hopefully Airpod can get their act together (compressed air short distance small vehicle)
The people that are 70km from the hydrogen refuel, might look (if rules allow) to get a few hydrogen cylinders like an oxy-acetylene torch cylinder setup, that can give them local partial hydrogen vehicle refuelling.
Upgrades for Toyota:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-u...-see-in-tartu/
Hyundai..Quote:
“Fowler: So yeah, a more powerful engine is coming.”
https://www.upload.ee/image/14312268/6aj7jqejmo531.png
Wasn't the petrol engine supposed to be somehow "frozen" since mid-last year? Guess not everything is frozen.
I'd say MSport should be more concerned since even Fowler says this is a reaction to some Hyundai upgrades. Let's hope MSport doesn't start lagging too fast. (At least not before we see more starts with performing drivers)
https://twitter.com/RallyMexico/stat...h6CbPgNp1iMMjg
Finally some (Good) news regarding next year's calendar, after leaving in a hurry due to the Covid-19 outbreak last time in 2020, we're back in Mexico for 2023. Finally (hopefully) we won't have that 2 month break between Sweden & Croatia & we won't have to wait until Portugal in May to see the cars on gravel for the first time during the season. Also will be interesting to see the new cars being put through their paces in the high altitude of the Guanajuato stages.
m-sport looking for experienced driver add on
https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2022/wrc...tional-driver/
He has Mikkelsens number i presume. Just put the childish "pride" away.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
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i think he has the number and can store the pride away, still, mikkelsen will not drive for free...Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
i bet "looking for a solution" is more like looking for cash.
If M-sport looking for a free driver that can be top 3, i'll say "good luck".
Or good riddance.
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Interestingly Mexico seem to have deleted all references to this from their channels...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
i think the situation is exactly this, and not from just now. they try to shake the tree of pr from time to time to see what happens. maybe the bull will finally give mikkelsen some wing...Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
Yeah, thats the only way in probably, but they already pay for Loeb?Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
And Fourmaux?
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Anyone here has access to this? I wonder what the “Tänak could be on the move” is about
https://rallysportmag.com/5-things-w...lly-estonia-2/
They simply need to go with Mikkelsen to Norwegian Hyta, have some proper german beer and make a deal. Mikkelsen must be in the tight spot now also - he has won ERC and WRC2, whats left? What is the piont to pile up those Wrc 2 titles? He is not getting any younger, competition in Wrc2 becomes more serious etc etc. Both M-Sport and Mikkelsen are in the position of "need" without the strong leverage. It is real shame to see the nice Puma finish 7th. Mikkelsen is the only alternative, unless some guy named Thiery would loose all his cool and would want to save his carrier in the last moment ( Tanak can not - he has Rally 2 business with Hyundai together with Marko Martin).Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud