Privateers to fight for positions 7-10?Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
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Privateers to fight for positions 7-10?Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
I think what now matter is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
“Obviously we had a grip advantage, let’s say, over the top guys but we’ll take a WRC stage win when we can!” These were the words of Josh McErlean last Saturday after claiming his first ever stage win in the World Rally Championship – in a Rally2 car - Rally Portugal 2022.
He’s not the first driver to do it and he likely won’t be the last, but that wasn’t exactly going to cheapen his moment or make it any less special for the rest of us watching. https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc2-...verall-stages/
That was on a silly superspecial where the weather conditions changed drastically.
Normally Josh McErlean can’t win stages even in WRC2. In contrast, him being so far behind allowed the stage to dry more.
This is not only about McErlean, but also about Pontus Tindemand, Jan Kopecký, Jari Huttunen and Umberto Scandola. Or as Luke Barry, the author of the Dirtfish article puts it:Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Umberto Scandola / Where: Monza Rally 2020, SS11 Gerosa. Nobody could match Scandola. Rally and championship winner Ogier was the only one within 15s of him. No matter what happens in Scandola’s rallying career in the future, he’ll always have that on his CV.
I'm sure you know well enough in the 90's and early 00's privateers were better than that. Even in gr B era privateers had more chances than now.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
The other thing is we would have more top cars on the starting line with local or up and coming youngsters would have a chance. Remember Jyväskylä in the 90's and compare it to present day.
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That was then, now is different. The sport is more intense and the top guys are on so high level that it’s hard to compete against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
BTW who privateers in group B era? :D
As for more cars on the start line, the WRC2 is a great place for privateers and the cars are not as unspectacular as Gp N as a support class
There's not one central 'Toyota' or 'Hyundai' doing everything, it's normal business structure/divisional stuff for a multinational car manufacture to have an arm like Gazoo or HMSG to be the operation, or to get an external contractor to do it. These are in it for the branding/promo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergiow
M-Sport are in motorsport services and (it's my belief) the relationship with Ford is different. M-Sport are the driving force and because they need the manufacturer affiliation to sell Rally1 services, they bring Ford in. Ford will at least cover the entry fees and meet FIA rules about manufacturer affiliations in return for the 'free' promo. Neither would be doing Rally1 without the other.
A reminder of some rules:Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
*Rally1 cars have to *look like* a series production car
*Only the manufacturer of that car can homologate the Rally1 car
*Only when a manufacturer enters the WRC will the car be approved and be available to 'Teams'
The thing is, FIA rules be talking like it's 1973 still, that there are hundreds of car manufacturers, maybe some are state sponsored, where they do all their own parts and components and assemble everything under one roof. The second thing is, the Rally1 lot are now constructors, not manufacturers. They build purpose-built race cars with purpose-built engines, with a spec hybrid package, but the FIA likes to believe only manufacturers can be constructors, because traditionally manufacturers have brought the budget.
The rally car 'manufacturers' take a windscreen and a couple of other minor parts from the production car, source everything else from a hundred SME engineering companies that are different to the thousand companies that build components used in the road cars and build something to go rallying with. Compare this to the privateer constructor teams filling grids in the roundy-roundy games.
All these rules are by design to keep privateers out, no? Just because you might not like it doesn't mean it's a problem.
No, it’s actually same for all cases. Drastically changing conditions and/or a super specialQuote:
Originally Posted by Sergiow
Please look for VHS rallies. Plenty of private local entries in gr B (fyi Tabaton etc). Not gonna argue much but it's not any better now.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
And the arguement isn't that past is better or the opposite but we are missing competent privateer field which was giving us far more diversity. Today we get 3-4 top guys and sponsored drivers.
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Long answer completely derailed from my point but oh please do go onQuote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
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Did it derail from your point or just disagree? Can you justify that lack of Rally1 privateers is purely a cost issue?Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
Having the COSTS delusion seems to be closely tied to the view that privateers should be at Rally1 in the first place. FIA does not share your dream, so why apply this delusion why you aren't seeing your dream?
Privateers have been using factory or ex-factory cars for ages and it has diversified the field a lot in the past. Now the cars and most importantly spare parts are so expensive that this isn't really affordable.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Getting from Rally2 car to WRC/Rally1 car has been proven very difficult for most drivers, only exception being Rovanperä. The others who have tried needed more seat time but failed to get it. Why? You guessed it!
And yes, derailed.
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Because there are only a handful of Cat II competition-build Rally1 cars, that only run on WRC rounds (and not on regional/national champs), by the manufacturers themselves - all by design for being international TV entertainment as promotion.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
Not just because people didn't have the budget to get seat time at, for example, Toyota.
Going back to my derailed post, if an F1 nut could break down the car manufacturer and non-car manufacturer teams and who the paid and pay-for drivers are it would be interesting.
Maybe in a relevant thread too, I don't know which by now.
You have your right and I disagree with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
If you think this model is sustainable and overall the way it should be, fine.
For my liking I would like to have more privateers and they're gone. With current situation in hand (too expensive!) this will never be sustainable for privateers.
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I don't think it's the way it should be and FWIW I agree it is too expensive for many privateers.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
But I'm not sure you're understanding that the access privateers currently have is coincidental. It appears Hyundai, like Toyota, don't offer drives for sale. If Ford brought rally inhouse, and still even if Citroen, Fiat, Dacia, Tesla... then join in the same fashion, there could be a situation where there's zero seats that any amount of privateer money can buy. And the FIA would not give one shiny shit because WRC is not there to provide a fair sporting opportunity, it is a commercial championship where Rally1 is designed around the promotion of car manufacturers. I'm not sure why you would choose to disagree with that.
For M-Sport it's vital to sell/rent cars. It's affecting them a lot, this current situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Not so many 2017 cars are on the stages as well and you guessed it, there's no point to drive these cars on national rallyes. Why? You guessed again!
Btw I agree with your last point - it's too commercial and non-reachable for normal people and it starts with the rules and results of being too expensive.
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There might have been some Italian privateers in Sanremo, but not much other competitive ones. And some of them were like semi-factory drivers, just doing a national series.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
Well we got Serderidis now :DQuote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
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From the top of my mind, I recall these small programs (from ewrc-results, I wasn't even born during Group B):Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Lampi, Eklund, Grissmann, Buffum (Audi)
Vudafieri, Biasion (Lancia, even though Jolly Club was a sort of semi-works team)
Turiani, Recordati, Iwase (Opel)
Eklund (Austin Rover, I don't know how official was his entry)
Meylan, Iwashita (Nissan)
many Citroen Visa
Most of them could only dream of competing with top teams, but could achieve top 5 places when there was high attrition. Actually some group A cars, especially works Golf of Eriksson, could achieve the same good results with high attrition or lower entries.
Or Greensmith and LoubetQuote:
Originally Posted by cali
Lampi was Audi's test driver. Eklund "could only dream of competing with top teams" LOL, he was a Saab works driver already in the 70's. Eklund's Metro was entered by the factory team in Sweden and RAC, by Clarion in other events. So at least semi-factory entry.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Grissmann was fifth in Portugal 1985, losing an hour to the winner. Iwase lost 1h44m in Argentina 1984, being behind the fastest local Renault 11. That's Serderidis pace. Tchine (Turiani) was also much a gentleman driver, his fifth place comes from Portugal 1986 where the works teams withdrew!
We can also add Harri Toivonen into the list, driving a Metro in 1000 Lakes and RAC 1986, not going really anywhere.
Like you say, most of them could achieve top 5 results when there was high attrition, similarly as Group A cars. And it's the same as Rally2 cars getting to top 5 now.
But yeah, times are different. Rallying was big and car manufacturers put lot of marketing money into rallying, even dealers supporting drivers in national championships. It's not the same anymore.
And about privateers in general. If we assume the current factory cars would suddenly turn into Rally2 - on the same level as current WRC2 privateers - but all the effort from the factory teams, testing and professional sporting and skill and experience from the drivers would remain, the "privateers" couldn't win a single stage against the factory guys, if not for exceptional weather conditions. The level of competition and detail is just so high on the top level.
They are in the official team, scoring even team points. True privateer is Serderidis and in some scale yes, Loubet.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Greensmith is a factory driver and been in that position for a couple of seasons, although not by merit.
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Loubet does not score team points, neither does Greensmith when Loeb is driving.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
:confused: How then?Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
True privateer to me enters themselves, ideally running their own car. Serderidis was entered by M-Sport Ford WRT in a car he owns so he must leases it out to M-Sport to use. Greensmith brings the family businesses as sponsors. These are more like investors than privateers.
On Group B and A, manufacturers were forced to build 200 or 5000 extra cars for sale or use.
That's a great list of privateers even if you count that way (sarcasm alert)Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Did you forget to read the 3 words I wrote before "could only dream of competing with top teams"?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Surprise surprise, there was privateer drivers in the gr B. Glad that we got this sorted.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
The rules were so different then. It was allowed to service between stages, service in the stages, spare parts were carried in entry cars like a “water carrier” does at Dakar, engineers were sometimes in a third seat in an entered car.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
Buffum had some great stories about driving the car with the engineer in it and the guy falling asleep mid-stage!
The clever teams took every tactical advantage possible and this created opportunities for other drivers who were fairly quick to be entered in these events and support the main crews.
It’s just not like that now.
I’d also wager from pure cost point of view that although teams spent less on the car itself, they spent such an enormous amount more on spare parts, logistics and time on-event than is done now that the overall costs were much higher. Meaning a privateer driver had to come up with a huge budget to compete OR they had to deliver some value that the team would heavily subsidize or fully cover their entry.
It would be great to have a deeper field but many of the reasons there have been deeper fields in the past are not currently factors.
Gentlemen drivers and semi-factory drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
Just like today.
Your claim was that there was no privateers in the 80's which was not true. And 80's was not good for privateers which shows how deep trouble we are in.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
That was my point and you actually validated this.
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Street model cars. Even in Group B. Only 20 rally cars were mandatory to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
My point was more like "there was no competitive privateers in the 80's". There has always been privateers in rally, from the 50's onwards. But it's a different thing when they have been competitive. I have seen some footage from the 60's where a journalist is asking the clerk of the course of 1000 Lakes Rally, what should be done to make the privateers more competitive (in terms of practicing and route difficulty etc). So it's not a new thing for the 2020's.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
The exception was in the Group A and early WRC era when some individual drivers got a good car and managed to get a good single result like Kytölehto in Finland, and even those two were due to low entries in factory teams (for example Mitsubishi with just one competitive car) and technical issues for factory entries.
from what i know first hand, related only to italian stuff, fiat, abarth, lancia, but also in the gr a era with subaru italy i.e. most of the "privateer" was in fact satellite team, entered as privateer but funded by the manus and directly controlled by them, used as lab, testing or to grow youngster and engineers, in many case it was just the national championship division running the wrc event as a privateer.
Yes, like I said up until the early 90’s (?) it was common for a factory/satellite/dealer team to enter cars in national championships.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
And 250/yr Group A in 90s, it provided the capacity for the satellites and privateers back then that doesn't exist today. And, the 20/250 were still related to the initial 200/2500 'street' production that justified it being a championship for production manufacturers. In 2022, there's no extra capacity and at 1 serious manufacturer that justification has gone IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Why can't a Williams, Haas or AlphaTauri build a Rally1 car? Oops I forgot: because it's too expensive.
they can, just as m-sport. and they have more than enough money, if they can tackle f1. so the point is just marketing return that is not worth enough for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Without a willing manufacturer partner?Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
I assume it’s a rhetorical questionQuote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
No, is it a big ask to be corrected if I'm spouting shite? M-Sport have Ford approval, for required entry in the manufacturers championship and there's R5 projects haven't been homologated because there was no manufacturer support. I've never seen a Haas driving on the street so maybe they have them in other countries?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL