GT Class

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25th February 2016, 20:49
dimviii

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ucci

Dimviii, I don't know how fast you drove them if you haven't noticed the disatvanteges of 911's.....you are just mentioning power advantage....as that the HP number is the most significant on rally stage(s)....it is just a part of the whole picture.....

no i havent said something like that,thats your conclusion,not mine.
25th February 2016, 21:14
Sulland

But as long as everyone knows the rules and regulations, they can choose the car they would like to use. If you love driving a 911, and they beat a R5, that is ok in my book! The sound and the downfall of a rear-engined car compared to a modern 4wd car, made for the pupose, makes for cool slides, and locked front wheels. The fans love it!

We are back to the discussion of private tuned cars vs manufacurer tuned cars.

And we need many engineering firms that can make money from rally. We are in this case talking a national championship, and drivers that do this for the fun of it. Let them!! National ASN need to grow a pair, and support their customers, and not the manufacturers.

R-GT would be a perfect class for this, but tuners need to be allowed to put in a bigger restrictor, that gives them maybe 100 hp more than today!
25th February 2016, 21:29
dimviii

Quote:

Originally Posted by GravelBen

As others have said an R5 car has a lot of advantages over a GT for rallying (suspension travel, 4wd etc), so if you want them to compete with each other you have to let the GT keep some advantage in other areas like power. Maybe the Spanish Porsches had too much advantage previously, its a challenge for rule-makers to get the balance right.

no you havent got to have any advantage at cars are not build for rallies,to make them competetive.
There are rules.And they will be rules for ever.Try to understant it.
25th February 2016, 22:11
Mirek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rally Power

Above all, ASN’s should be looking to get as much competitors as they can, for their national series. R5’s are great rally cars, very well developed and built, but they are (like most of all the others R cars) a kind of monopoly, being supplied by only 4 or 5 official tuners. This way prices will tend to be very high (as we all know), so ASN’s must look around to find other compatibles ways for less wealthy crews get their share of competitive rallying as well.

Exactly. And that's why replacing 5 rally-addicted manufacturers with 1 totally indifferent to rallying is wrong move. Tell me what other choice do You have in Spain if You want to compete with Porsches? Only Porsche. There's no other way You could beat them on regular basis. As a result You have 5-8 Porsches and 0 R5 in the championship. So You didn't win 1 manufacturer more but lost 5. Do You believe that it's good that none of the rally-addicted manufacturers are interested in the championship? Why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rally Power

Establishing a performance balance for different types of cars can be hard, but it’s achievable if there’s a will to do it.

That's exactly what is missing in Spanish rules and why anything else except Porsches disappeared.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulland

But as long as everyone knows the rules and regulations, they can choose the car they would like to use.

No, You can't chose when the rules are made that way that there is only one option if You want to win - Porsche.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulland

If you love driving a 911, and they beat a R5, that is ok in my book! The sound and the downfall of a rear-engined car compared to a modern 4wd car, made for the pupose, makes for cool slides, and locked front wheels. The fans love it!

Except they rarely drive sideways. Those cars use traction control. They rarely drift in slow corners and they are slow in fast corners. The only spectacular thing about them is sound and look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulland

We are back to the discussion of private tuned cars vs manufacurer tuned cars.

I'm for privately tuned cars although preferably under FIA rules (which would need to rebuild current homologation system but that's something what manufacturers won't allow).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulland

And we need many engineering firms that can make money from rally. We are in this case talking a national championship, and drivers that do this for the fun of it. Let them!! National ASN need to grow a pair, and support their customers, and not the manufacturers.

R-GT would be a perfect class for this, but tuners need to be allowed to put in a bigger restrictor, that gives them maybe 100 hp more than today!

The only way how to make R-GT cars something widespread is to allow them to win overall - I mean under FIA rules. In that moment they are interesting for manufacturers and those have the power to create proper rules. Privateers won't change anything in global. Let's be realistic, rallying is a marketing tool for manufacturers, why shall they allow some privateers to meddle into their business with cars from manufacturer whose playground is somewhere else?
25th February 2016, 22:30
GravelBen

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimviii

no you havent got to have any advantage at cars are not build for rallies,to make them competetive.
There are rules.And they will be rules for ever.Try to understant it.

Of course there are rules - you are just saying you want the rules to give R5 cars advantage in every way instead of just some ways. ;)
25th February 2016, 22:48
GravelBen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirek

Exactly...

Good points Mirek - if that has become the situation with the Spanish championship then the rules have definitely been out of balance.

I agree about RGT, I'd like to see FIA allow them to be competitive enough to at least have an outside chance of winning some events.

Your earlier comments about wanting the same cars to be eligible for more championships makes sense for Europe as well - though its not an issue here in NZ where you can't just drive to another country to compete!
25th February 2016, 23:05
dimviii

Quote:

Originally Posted by GravelBen

Of course there are rules - you are just saying you want the rules to give R5 cars advantage in every way instead of just some ways. ;)

change sport,rally is too difficult for you to understant the rules.
26th February 2016, 01:59
Rally Power

Quote:

Originally Posted by GravelBen

Good points Mirek - if that has become the situation with the Spanish championship then the rules have definitely been out of balance.

Spanish rules were in favour of GT's, now they are in favour of R5's...still no balance at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sulland

We are back to the discussion of private tuned cars vs manufacurer tuned cars.
And we need many engineering firms that can make money from rally. We are in this case talking a national championship, and drivers that do this for the fun of it. Let them!! National ASN need to grow a pair, and support their customers, and not the manufacturers!

You’re totally right Sulland, but I fear FIA policy to endorse official manufacturers tuners is becoming ridiculously overwhelming.

Forget rally cars diversity and local tuners heritage, nowadays what matters in our rally countries is to have a decent number of R5’s entries in order to proudly announce to the rest of the civilized rally world: we have x, y or z R5’s in our championship!
26th February 2016, 09:57
Mirek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rally Power

Forget rally cars diversity and local tuners heritage, nowadays what matters in our rally countries is to have a decent number of R5’s entries in order to proudly announce to the rest of the civilized rally world: we have x, y or z R5’s in our championship!

5 different brands of R5 cars mean more diversity than 8 same Porsches, or?
26th February 2016, 14:22
pantealex

This is WRC forum and most of you are talking national GT-class.

ie.
I believe that in WRC R-GT they use same tyres than everyone else (also in gravel)
26th February 2016, 14:27
Ucci

[QUOTE=Mirek;1082694]Exactly. And that's why replacing 5 rally-addicted manufacturers with 1 totally indifferent to rallying is wrong move. Tell me what other choice do You have in Spain if You want to compete with Porsches? Only Porsche. There's no other way You could beat them on regular basis. As a result You have 5-8 Porsches and 0 R5 in the championship. So You didn't win 1 manufacturer more but lost 5. Do You believe that it's good that none of the rally-addicted manufacturers are interested in the championship? Why?

At the end-maybe there was a problem in R5 cars drivers that they were beaten by 911's?? Average drivers, who were just looking for excuse(s) and didn't want to realize, that they are the problem.....Who knows.....and now Vallejo & Co are guilty for GT cars being hammered down...
Anyway, the story is closed....GT cars are (also) history in Spain, for me the championship itself is going to be unexciting, I will focus even more to my beloved country-Italy, ....and Austria, some WRC cars will be in a chase after Baumschlager....
26th February 2016, 14:59
Mirek

It's up to You do chose reality or belief.
26th February 2016, 15:27
Mirek

Quote:

Originally Posted by pantealex

This is WRC forum and most of you are talking national GT-class.

ie.
I believe that in WRC R-GT they use same tyres than everyone else (also in gravel)

R-GT are dead anyway. I have a feeling that the halfway attempt to bring them in was in fact an intentional demonstration that GTs in rallying don't work.
26th February 2016, 15:54
dimviii

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ucci

At the end-maybe there was a problem in R5 cars drivers that they were beaten by 911's?? Average drivers, who were just looking for excuse(s) and didn't want to realize, that they are the problem.....Who knows....

r5 drivers said excuses while competing against 420 bhp at dry asphalt.lolzzz.
27th February 2016, 00:51
Rally Power

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirek

R-GT are dead anyway. I have a feeling that the halfway attempt to bring them in was in fact an intentional demonstration that GTs in rallying don't work.

What seem to be not working are FIA rally regulations. The lack of diversity of current Gr.R compared to the Gr.N/A days (when private tuners were able to supply rally costumers) it’s overwhelming: right now there are only 11 models available (4 R5, 3 R3, 3 R2 and 1 R1)!

Btw, local regulations didn’t made 911’s dominant in Spain. They’ve become what any top rally car must be: fast, reliable and affordable! In 2014 Fuster run a Fiesta R5 (from RMC) against Vallejo and the others 911’s. It was a close fight during all season (5 wins for Vallejo, 4 for Fuster). He had plans to get a Fabia R5 (more powerful than the Fiesta) for 2015, but he didn’t get the budget to run it. He returned to a Porsche. According to 911’s top drivers, the running cost of a season is almost the double with an R5!

Let’s face it, R5’s are expensive to buy and maintain. Yes, the rules should favor them a bit, as they somehow represent manufacturer’s current range, but I don’t think it’s in the sport interest to severely handicap other rally cars that get close to R5’s.
27th February 2016, 01:01
GravelBen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirek

I have a feeling that the halfway attempt to bring them in was in fact an intentional demonstration that GTs in rallying don't work.

To demonstrate that they don't work, or to make sure they won't work? :imubash:
27th February 2016, 02:39
Mirek

Seems I was misunderstood so an explanation of my statement.

I meant that the attempt to bring R-GT into international scene by FIA may have been intentionally prepared the way that those can't achieve anything and disappear themselves. FIA than can say "Look, we tried but it didn't work".

Otherwise I have written many times my personal opinion - the only way how to bring R-GT into life is to allow them to win (under FIA rules) and by that to bring manufacturers. Any other options are bound to fail.
27th February 2016, 05:15
GravelBen

Understood, I think we agree about it. :)
27th February 2016, 10:17
AndyRAC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirek

I meant that the attempt to bring R-GT into international scene by FIA may have been intentionally prepared the way that those can't achieve anything and disappear themselves. FIA than can say "Look, we tried but it didn't work".

Classic FiA tactics. They allowed GT cars in, but made it too difficult for most to develop & run them = everybody has given up.
What they should have done is allowed any current GT3 car, with maybe minor alterations to take part. And use a rally version of BOP. Simple.

But that was never going to happen.

Maybe rallying doesn't need them; it's super successful and popular with public and media as it is...........;)
27th February 2016, 12:36
Sulland

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirek

Seems I was misunderstood so an explanation of my statement.

I meant that the attempt to bring R-GT into international scene by FIA may have been intentionally prepared the way that those can't achieve anything and disappear themselves. FIA than can say "Look, we tried but it didn't work".

Otherwise I have written many times my personal opinion - the only way how to bring R-GT into life is to allow them to win (under FIA rules) and by that to bring manufacturers. Any other options are bound to fail.

I agree in principal, but I mean the speed target of a GT should be R5, and not R6 (WRCar). Then they can be used in Regional and National championships and fight for top spots.
Many fams also go to rallies to look at dreamcars, and that is not Polo, Fiesta and i20, but GTs are!
27th February 2016, 15:04
Mirek

Agree but look at it from manufacturer's point of view. Why shall be people from Porsche or Ferrari happy that they fight with Škoda, Ford or Hyundai? Their whole existence is based on the principle of exclusivity. How can they sell as an achievement that their 911 fight somewhat successfully with Fabia when You can buy a Fabia for price of exclusive painting on 911?

Their target is Ferrari or Lamborgini, not Škoda or Hyundai. That's why they may be interested in rallying only if they can defeat the plebs. But is it a right thing to allow them to do so? Will the other traditional rally brands stay? Who knows but maybe it's correct decision to keep rallying as a playground of these mass manufacturers who have proved to be willing to keep their focus in rallying for decades and who undoubtedly gain marketing points from it.
27th February 2016, 15:30
Jack4688`

I think part of the problem is the very nature of Rallying itself. Like you said the GT manufacturers have no interest in competing against Skoda, Hyundai etc so why should they? It's so much easier in circuit racing where a field of 20+ cars per race is fine, so you don't need to shore up the numbers but letting S1600, TC2 and TC1 cars competing on the same racetrack on the same day and the same time as DTM cars. Race meetings will have more than 20 odd cars attending but in different events throughout the weekend, keeping the fans interest occupied and no one complaining that they have no chance to compete for the overall win in their touring car in a GT race.

If it were possible for the GTs to have their own events - not just a series - then they will be competing for the overall wins without someone in a more expensive R5 getting the raw end of the deal. Unfortunately I don't see how that would be achievable - you'd need an event promotor ready to put on an event just for GTs, then R3 and below and enough GT competitors to make that worth your while.
1st March 2016, 12:54
Mirek

Abarth has just presented 124 Spider R-GT. The car shall have factory homologation and be available for customers in 2017: http://www.autosport.cz/clanek.php?cl=17953

http://www.autosport.cz/img/clanky/b...651d3864b4.jpg
http://www.autosport.cz/img/clanky/b...c6777b67df.jpg

It has 1.8 supercharged engine with 300 Hp and 6-speed sequential gearbox. Unfortunately there is no information about weight but it must be a lot less than 911.
1st March 2016, 12:58
Jarek Z

Everybody is talking about Porsche here, but it seems we may have a new R-GT car from FIAT. I don't know how much truth in this piece of news is, but in my opinion this car looks fabulous!

Check it out here:
http://rajdy.autoklub.pl/news/rajdow...-abartha,66403

http://www.autoklub.pl/media/201603/92756-aba2.jpg
1st March 2016, 13:01
Mirek

It's definitely the most beautiful rally car in a looong time. Wish it's successful and starts some serious development in GT class. I actually think such GT light" cars have a lot more sense in rallying than supercars.
1st March 2016, 13:05
Jarek Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirek

I actually think such GT light" cars have a lot more sense in rallying than supercars.

What a pity the Lotus rally project didn't work!
1st March 2016, 13:14
Mirek

It was abandoned before it could achieve anything... still I don't know why.
1st March 2016, 13:39
AndyRAC

That’s a nice looking piece of kit!! Lets hope we see it onthe stages. Recently Alpine have shown a new car, now this Abarth 124 – both seenin the 70’s when 4WD wasn’t allowed….
Both these cars and their like should be seen in rallying, and the WRC.

So, c’mon FiA, get your backsides in gear; encourage moremanufacturers. A proper lightweight GT class is needed/ wanted.
1st March 2016, 13:43
wildboar

That's good news! Maybe the R-GT class is not dead after all.

Also just saw, that the Tuthill Porsche (the one that Delecour drove last year) has been bought by the "Guagliardo Team" from Italy. They plan to do the Targa Florio with it. Hopefully they will also do some ERC/WRC events.

http://www.scomunicando.it/notizie/r...am-guagliardo/
1st March 2016, 17:30
Arnold Triyudho Wardono

Mazda should joins the game..
1st March 2016, 17:38
Mirek

The R-GT regulations state that minimum weight of the car is its power in Hp multiplied by 3,4. If this Abarth has 300 Hp it can go up to 1020 kg. I don't believe it's achievable (just like cca 1330 kg for Porsche 911) but for sure it allows to make the car as light as possible without any additional balance.

By the way I wonder how FIA determins the actual power of the car...
1st March 2016, 20:06
Rally Power

Amazing news! I didn’t believe in US journos, but they were right… it’s great to see Fiat/Abarth back to rally! The car looks great and has lots of potential (stock mazda mx5 weights only 1050kg). Hope Abarth will develop a gravel kit and FIA won’t ruin it with restrictors. It seems a nice car for a cup series in ERC and national championships!

Abarth 124 Spider (road car) figures: 1.4t/170cv/1060kg/40.000€. The 1.8t engine of the Rally version it’s probably based in Alfa’s 4C engine.

PR’s and presentation video: http://www.abarthpress.com/
2nd March 2016, 02:46
Rally Power

This one was also presented yesterday in Geneva, but FIA will probably never allow it in Rally…

http://www.topgear.com/sites/default...?itok=r-XHTvs7

http://www.topgear.com/car-news/firs...uld-be-perfect
2nd March 2016, 18:43
Gordini

I think french tuner will make rally car of new Alpine
2nd March 2016, 20:37
Mirek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rally Power

This one was also presented yesterday in Geneva, but FIA will probably never allow it in Rally…

The car is allowed in the moment it starts its sales. You only need to find a tuner who would pay the paperwork.
3rd March 2016, 00:20
itix

Finally something that isn't a boring porsche! Now all other manu's, come on!
5th March 2016, 01:56
NaBUru38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arnold Triyudho Wardono

Mazda should joins the game..

Actually the MX-5 is a sister car to the 124 Spider.

Other than Lotus, who else makes small coupés or roadsters?

There's the German quartet: Porsche Cayman / Boxster, Audi TT, BMW Z4 and Mercedes-Benz SLC. But they are focused in GT circuit racing.

There's the Toyota 86, Nissan Z and Honda CR-Z. But the latter two are old and might not be replaced.

We miss the Ford Puma and Opel Tigra, but those were FWD.
6th March 2016, 19:54
Rally Power

More 124 Rally pics

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/...k63lhlcmgv.jpg

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/...wgjfwbfwto.jpg

https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...09&oe=5753F2F2

Photos: Jalopnik and Abarth FB
6th March 2016, 19:58
Rally Power

A shame the R doesn't stand for Rally...https://youtu.be/60uUFO9Wrng
12th March 2016, 22:43
Ucci

Congratulations to Enrique Cruz who won the 40.Rallye Islas Canarias.
Despite all the obstacles he showed to entire rally scene, that 911 GT3 RS 3.8 can compete against R5 cars, which are driven by some of top drivers.
Long live the Portuguese national federation which allows unrestricted GT cars,

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