Did Max not leave Lewis space at Silverstone?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Printable View
Did Max not leave Lewis space at Silverstone?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Horner and max are giving some of the most twisted interviews ever. applying severe mental gymnastics to explain the incident, and TBF the reporter asked max point blank what happened at lap 1 and he litereally had nothing to say about it, apart from "it is a different situation"
horner comes out and provides laughable commentary about respect etc. when he was the one going to crazy extremes after silverstone.
You know he knows he is wrong by insisting it is a racing incident. useless
Lewis was further alongside at Silverstone. Lewis gave Max the same treatment Max gave him on the first lap today. Max can't have it all his own way. If being further alongside a driver and colliding means it is the drivers fault on the inside (Hamilton in Silverstone) then being further back and colliding means it has to be Max's fault today. And Max had plenty of room to go over the chicane today just like Lewis did on the first lap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
Respect to Damon Hill and Herbert they are the only ones calling it as it is.
I blame hamilton here too. But that was a 300km/h accident, while this is a 50km/h accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
The main issue here is that verstappens car got launched in the air, without that they would have just banged wheels and nothing terrible would have happened. This was not bad enough anyone a penalty, just a freak incident.
Had either of them known how it would end, they would have backed off.
And please look again at the video's. At the moment they touched they where next to each other. They touched rear to rear. In silverstone hamilton was clearly begind, that was front to rear.
The speed of the corners are irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
In Silverstone when they both committed to the corner Hamilton was only a couple of inches from being fully alongside. It was the speed differential throughout the corner which caused the cars to touch in different parts in Silverstone. When Max committed today he was further back than Lewis was at Silverstone. He should not have committed or else he should have gone over the chicane when he saw the door closing. By the time they were nearly side by side today there was no chance Max was making that corner. At any point Max could have backed out, at no point could Lewis have done much different. In fact I think Lewis actually moved slightly right to avoid Max once his car started oscillating as at that point he probably knew what was going to happen.
Both are either a racing incident or it was Lewis fault in Silverstone and Max's fault today.
[
No, the criteria for leaving space is determined by if they were over a certain percentage alongside or not, and if they are.. the defending driver has to leave space.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Its not a case of if one was more alongside than the other then that rule magically disappears as you seem to think.
In both incidents one left space, the other didn't.
You do understand that lewis cannot be fully alongside when his front wheel hits max'es rear wheel?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
And the speed of the corner is very relevant. In silverstone lewis knew that the only outcome would be a big crash. Today the outcome would have been wheels banging without damage in 99% of te cases. What we saw today was nothing out of the ordinary in racing terms, drivers bang wheels all the time. Only the outcome of this incident was a bit extreme, due to the lauching of the car.
To me both incidents were lewis fault. But today this was only a very minor incident, unfortunately with big consequences. Nobody should be punished here.
Hamilton left him the same room as Max gave him in the first lap and Hamilton was far more alongside than Max was. If Max feels the first lap was fair then Hamilton was fair in the later incident. Thew Stewards ruled that no action was necessary there, so the precedent was set, Lewis had no need to give Max room in turn 2. In the end, Max didn't use his brain today, Lewis did. That's the big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
You are moving the goalposts again.. so we are comparing the first lap incident today instead now? I haven't watched the full race yet so I can't comment on that one but if thats the case then yes, I'll no doubt agree... but you compared todays incident with Silverstone.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Lewis didn't know a big smash was imminent in Silverstone, plenty of cars have overtaken successfully at Copse throughout the years, it's just both drivers wouldn't give an inch. It was a racing incident.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Today, Max knew the sausage Kerbs were there and went over them even though the door was closed. He made an error of judgement, I hope it wasn't a professional foul as Toto said. He should have backed out or gone over the chicane. He absolutely should get a penalty, otherwise just like with Portugal 2019, first lap Monza and Imola this year, he'll continue these sort of moves and maybe next time he'll kill himself or another driver.
No I have been comparing all three incidents if you look back at my posts and saying that if lap one was a racing incident today, so was Silverstone and so was the incident that took them both out today but actually I think Max knew the sausage kerb was there today so I think blame is more in his court the more I think of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
Ok,Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
I replied with 'perhaps' to your first lap comparison and I do agree that if that is what happened in the first lap and the Stewards deemed it a racing incident then fair is fair and so this should be too... but I'm seeing little/no correlation or equality with todays collision and the Silverstone one. Max left room there... Lewis also received a nothing penalty and went on to win.
3 place grid drop for Max at the next race and 2 penalty points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
Well the stewards agreed with my assessment and Verstappen has been given a 3 place grid drop at the next GP and 2 penalty points/
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...0collision.pdf
Here is the ruling:
"Fact - Collision with car 44 in turn 2.
Offence - Breach of Article 2 (d) Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code.
Decision - 3 Grid Place Drop at the driver’s next event.
(2 penalty points imposed, total of 2 points in the 12 month period)
Reason - The Stewards heard from the driver of car 33 (Max Verstappen), the driver of car 44 (Lewis Hamilton) and team representatives, reviewed the video evidence and determined that the driver of Car 33 was predominantly to blame for the collision with Car 44 at Turn 2.
Car 44 was exiting the pits. Car 33 was on the main straight. At the 50m board before Turn 1, Car 44 was significantly ahead of Car 33. Car 33 braked late and started to move alongside Car 44, although at no point in the sequence does Car 33 get any further forward than just behind the front wheel of Car 44. During the hearing the driver of Car 33 asserted that the cause of the incident was the driver of Car 44 opening the steering after Turn 1 and “squeezing” him to the apex of turn 2. The driver of Car 44 asserted that the driver of Car 33 attempted to pass very late and should have given up the corner either by backing off sooner, or by turning left behind the kerb.
The Stewards observed on CCTV footage that the driver of Car 44 was driving an avoiding line, although his position caused Car 33 to go onto the kerb. But further, the Stewards observed that Car 33 was not at all alongside Car 44 until significantly into the entry into Turn 1. In the opinion of the Stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late for the driver of Car 33 to have “the right to racing room”. While Car 44 could have steered further from the kerb to avoid the incident, the Stewards determined that his position was reasonable and therefore find that the driver of Car 33 was predominantly to blame for the incident.
In coming to the penalty the Stewards emphasise that they have only considered the incident itself and not the consequences thereof.
The Stewards Competitors are reminded that they have the right to appeal certain decisions of the Stewards, in accordance with Article 15 of the FIA International Sporting Code and Chapter 4 of the FIA Judicial and Disciplinary Rules, within the applicable time limits"
I wonder if Brundel will now eat humble pie and admit he was wrong and if DiResta will do the same.
This is a well deserved penalty and a culmination of all the bully driving that Max has engineered.
This time he nearly injured a fellow competitor because he doesn't care or is unwilling to compromise with anyone on the track.
So I see.. that's harsh and clearly wong IMO. Strange that Lewis was the one who left no room despite Max clearly being alongside.. and yet Max gets the penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Maybe his earlier squeeze on Lewis had some influence on that decision or they just want to keep it nip and tuck to the wire.
Great drive the Mclaren boys!
Norris and Danny Ric will need antibiotics for next race to recover from the bacteria they drank.
Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
If the Stewards decision is gospel and default proof of right and wrong, I didn't see you eating any humble pie when the Stewards penalised Lewis at Silverstone. Just sayin..
Anyway.. its interesting that we seem to have a new set of unwritten rules. Getting alongside to just behind the front wheels is no longer deemed to be enough anymore....and thats fair enough but they have set a new precedent now which they really have to abide by going forward.
No humble pie to eat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
I was annoyed with the decision in Silverstone,
I accepted the penalty they gave him, Hamilton took his penalty, and then came back to win.
It was you guys who could not even accept that outcome.
This time around...Crickets
No talk of dangerous driving or nearly injuring Hamilton.
Verstappen didn't even have the decency to check on Hamilton.
No class, at all.
oh well
In that case I guess there is no humble pie to eat for them either then.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
You talk about dangerous driving and Max not being concerned about another driver after what Lewis did at Silverstone... with Max having suffering an enormous impact and having to go to hospital for scans and meanwhile Lewis is away celebrating like he'd just won the championship, lording it up and clearly not giving a flying duck? Thats rich.. and double standards.
a 3 place drop seems harsh considered they gave lewis only a meaningless 5 seconds for sending max into the wall.
but hey, at least the season will stay exciting this way.
don't bother with him. you can't expect sane comments from religious people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
FORMULA 1 HEINEKEN GRAN PREMIO D’ITALIA 2021 - RACE RESULT
10 12 Sep 2021 Autodromo Nazionale Monza, Monza
https://www.formula1.com/en/results....ce-result.html
'Deep down I never lost faith or belief' says Ricciardo after taking first win since 2018
12 September 2021
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...cubxgoJiQ.html
Verstappen says Hamilton ‘ran me out of road’ in pair’s spectacular Italian Grand Prix coming together
12 September 2021
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...3ULRnFAIm.html
Verstappen handed three-place grid drop for Sochi after crash with Hamilton at Monza
12 September 2021
Max Verstappen has been handed a three-place grid penalty for the Russian Grand Prix after the stewards judged he was to blame for causing a collision with Lewis Hamilton at Monza.
As Hamilton exited the pits after his first stop, Verstappen was running down the main straight – having lost a lot of ground because of a slow pit stop – and they were side by side heading down to the first corner.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...086WzbvWI.html
Horner: Verstappen entitled to more room in 'racing incident'
Today, 16:45
Red Bull's Christian Horner was reluctant to blame either Lewis Hamilton or Max Verstappen for their race-ending clash, but felt that his driver was entitled to more room on track.
https://racingnews365.com/horner-ver...acing-incident
Formula 1
Verstappen: Hamilton ‘kept on squeezing and squeezing’
By Edd Straw and Scott Mitchell
Max Verstappen says he had nowhere to go in his battle with Lewis Hamilton in the first chicane during Formula 1’s Italian Grand Prix, saying that the Mercedes driver “kept on squeezing me”.
The resulting collision put both drivers out of the race, with the stewards summoning both drivers for a post-race investigation.
Verstappen felt that Hamilton needed to leave him space mid-chicane as they battled after the Mercedes driver emerged from the pits.
He argued that he was left with no option but to hit the sausage kerb, which resulted in his Red Bull then hitting the Mercedes and both drivers retiring.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/hamil...ng-verstappen/
12 Sep 2021
Hamilton 'squeezed me to left' says Verstappen after Monza collision
After an eventful Italian Grand Prix, Red Bull's Max Verstappen looks back on a day when nearly everything went "wrong", including his spectacular crash with championship rival Lewis Hamilton.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/v...264659516.html
Max: Hamilton ‘ran me out of road’ in Monza crash
Date published: September 12 2021 - Jamie Woodhouse
https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-ve...rash-thoughts/
Verstappen: Hamilton left me with 'nowhere to go'
Today, 16:20
0 comments
The Red Bull driver feels that Lewis Hamilton "kept on squeezing" him, which led to their incident at the Italian Grand Prix.
https://racingnews365.com/verstappen...-nowhere-to-go
They gave Lewis 10 seconds in Silverstone iirc.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
excuse me then, you are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
RBR probably use the next race to take their engine penalty anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
In the end, Hamilton and Mercedes have to feel like this is one that got away from them. They obviously were the fastest car, but screwed up sprint qualifying and had they not screwed up Lewis pit stop they would have been well ahead of Max and probably win the race.
The racing gods are playing games.
So Masi basically said that had Max been able to continue, they would have given him a time penalty, but instead they have to give him a grid place penaltyQuote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
How in the world can the stewards see a 10 second penalty being the equivalent to a 3 place grid drop?Quote:
As both drivers retired from today’s race, Verstappen had to be given a penalty for a subsequent round, as Formula 1 race director Michael Masi explained.
“If they had continued, it would have been a time penalty in the race,” said Masi. “However, they didn’t.
FIA has some of the stupidest rules and logic.
Red flag - free tire changes and replace any parts you need to. From what I can tell, the Red Flag rules historically were only used for extreme weather, or really bad crashes where they might need to change tires for safety - now they give out red flags like M & M's.
That is why Gasly won last year - he hadn't pitted and got lucky with a red flag and got a free tire change - not due to his driving prowess. Otherwise he would have been just tooling around in the mid-field.
Rain - lets call driving around the track a couple times behind a car with flashing light a "RACE".
Penalties - a bunch of illogical mumbo jumbo sprinkled in with first lap "unwritten rules".
So lets look at the 3 latest crashes. Hamilton, Bottas and Verstappen were found guilty.
Hamilton was found guilty of ruining a race and is given a 10 second penalty that meant nothing as it still allowed him to win the race.
Bottas found guilty of taking out 3, including at least one power plant which will meant 20 place penalty. Get a 5 place grid penalty.
Verstappen takes out Hamilton who probably would have won the race, 3 place grid penalty.
If you are going to find these guys "guilty" then you have to impose penalty that fits the crime, or all the whining needs to shut up. Because all the FIA is enabling.
It was agreed with the teams before the season began that should a situation like today arise where a drive deemed at fault for a crash not be able to continue that a grid penalty would be applied at the next race. Much like the budget cap you can't simply go changing the rules afterwards because you find yourself in a situation that doesn't suit you.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
furthermore a 10 sec penalty in race, is far worse than a 3 place grid slot. TBHQuote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
At worst, verstappen will start in p5/6 as opposed to dropping back much further with an in-race 10second penalty.
A big difference.
If I am being honest, a fair penalty would be to start the next race and get a 10 second penalty at his first pit stop
I think the penalty should have been a little harsher simply because Max has form for this kind of thing and doesn't seem to be learning but it's good something has been done.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
Lewis is lucky to be alive today. Halo saved his life thankfully. I think it was pretty classless of Max the way he just walked past Lewis. I mean, his car just went over the guys head, your first action after something like that should be to see if he is okay, F1 is secondary to someone being alive. It's not like Silverstone where Lewis was told Max was okay and didn't know he was in hospital.
That really bothered me.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
A complete lack of empathy whatsoever.
He caused the collision, his car was on top of the other, he actually revved the engine as you can clearly see the back wheels spinning up, then got out and walked away without a single bit of attention or concern towards Hamilton. classless guy.
Lewis was the slower car coming from the pit lane squeezing the faster car into a kerb barrier that sends cars into the air. The FIA need to look at track limits and why Lewis thought it was ok to not give more room to let two cars take the corner.
That would be consistent and fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
It's a completely different incident. If Max squeezed Lewis into a kerb that sent his car into the air then I don't think Lewis gets a penalty.
you serious?Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Sim Racer
lmao
No. I think sausage kerbs are okay and strict track limits don't ruin the sport or cause more harm at all. I also think Lewis only gets penalised because he is black and he is all about equality which is why he doesn't pay any tax in the United Kingdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
No clue who was a fault there but the FIA sure does know. Either way it's going to make Russia another interesting race.
Well done Ricco!!!
I have never seen Max back out of a corner.
Ever.
shall we mention how lewis tried to drive off while verstappen was getting out of the car? and again when verstappen was walking behind him?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
they were both classless shitheads here.
Ahh... I knew the internet would be alive with finger pointing as soon as I watched the collision. Opinions all turn into facts, trusted sources from previous incidents are discarded for the next, and everyone is the expert. It never disappoints. :D
But first....
Except for the collision, this was an overall great race for Monza. Though passing was tough, it could be done.
Danny Ric got an absolute blazer of a start, caught Max out, and made it stick through the turn. And it continued to stick, with chasing at the lead being difficult for all the cars. He didn't put a foot wrong the entire race, and found himself on the top of the podium once again.
Lando did much the same, though he did lose the one position for a period of time. Once he was back up front, he did everything he could to fight off Hamilton, and made it work.
Well done to McLaren... even without the collision a great race for them, and when the frontrunners take each other out, they inherit the top two steps of the podium. It's been a while since we've seen a "Shoey", and they all shared in it. It's been a long time coming for them and they deserve it. One of the best podium celebrations in quite a while really.
Bottas drove a blazer of a race. He came through the pack much quicker than I expected, and made it look easy. Naturally it got much tougher once with the frontrunners, but overall he was a solid performer. The hard tires for the Mercs didn't really work the way I thought they might, but overall they still had great pace and made them work.
Perez had a decent race, but the off track pass was obviously a lasting advantage, and in the end he couldn't make enough time up to make the penalty go away. This is what I dislike about the FIA and stewarding decisions. To me, that was an instance where within seconds they should have made him give the position back. When a driver gains an advantage, it also disadvantages all drivers behind, and really the compensation of a time penalty isn't always even close to fair. Had Bottas been in front, he might have had a shot at Lando at some point. As it turned out likely not, but either way it does no favors to the car behind and being held up.
Good showing by the Reds as well. McLaren were just a step ahead today, but the Ferrari was still at least in the hunt. Leclerc got a bit lucky at the end with the red flag stop, but they both raced well. Russell had the red flag stop and ended up with that car in a position it can't really race to, but it was there when it mattered. As for Stroll.... a quiet race and did well. The Alpines rounded out the top 10 and showed strengths and ability once again.
Poor Seb seemed to get bounced around like a ping pong ball. He didn't catch a break the entire race it seemed.
As for the collision, I'm still not quite sure what to think of the move or the decision. Max did dive in really late, but really almost all great passes involve diving in late by out braking someone. Once they both turned in on turn one, Max really didn't have the option to go straight across any more, as he would have just bounced the sausage curbs at a slightly different angle and still bounced into Lewis, unless Lewis completely backed out. As it was, once both turned it, the Lewis squeeze (which he was entitled to do) made the back tire of the RB bounce up just enough to meet the Merc tire and ride over.
Even the stewards decision states that Lewis could have "steered further from the kerb to avoid the incident" but didn't have to due to track position being reasonable. So they are essentially saying that if you "own" the racing line, you can not avoid the collision and allow it to happen, yet not be just as much at fault. It's confusing really. Had Lewis been that far alongside at Silverstone and they hit like that when Max turned in, no telling how far both of them might have launched. When all four wheels can contact it's almost always a sure thing that both cars will take a hard hit in some form, and that's what ended up happening. When they actually collided Max was well alongside, only about a half a wheel short of Hamilton.
I'll also say that without the sausage curbs, moves like this happened all the time, and the usual outcome was that the car on the inside of turn two could back out after the dive, and they both drove away. When the curbs are set up like that within track limits areas, they should either be full length and follow the contour of the track, or they shouldn't exist.
I don't think the penalty was harsh, but at the same time I don't want a rule that says you can't make a late move. Late moves are what makes racing great. If they want to enforce it they way they have been, they may as well paint a line and state that whoever crosses that point of line first owns the corner, and won't be at fault. Both of them scrubbed enough speed off to avoid the collision in the way it happened, but neither gave an inch. I think Max would have been even more likely to cause a major collision if he had turned left over the curbs sooner, it's just that the collision would have happened slightly differently.
As for any of it being intentional, I think it's just silly. As for respect and checking on the other driver, neither of them took the high road. Max knew full well that Lewis was at in decent shape, as he was trying to back out as Max exited the RB. Probably not the smartest thing for either driver. Had Lewis shut off the car and not done that, I would have expected Max to walk up the Merc and make sure he could get out at least. As it was, neither really showed much concern for the other in my opinion, as it was clear both were moving just fine.
Bagwan's conspiracy corner is going to have a tough time with this one.... :laugh:
'Hamilton tried forcing Verstappen to cut the corner in vain', says Alonso
12-09-2021 22:16 | Updated: 12-09-2021 22:37
by GPblog.com
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/93985...ys-alonso.html
Hamilton reacts to Verstappen's grid penalty: 'Proud of the stewards'
12-09-2021 18:29 | Updated: 12-09-2021 19:24
by GPblog.com
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/93962...-stewards.html
Internet reacts to Verstappen's punishment: "BS in my opinion"
12-09-2021 18:28 | Updated: 12-09-2021 19:24
by GPblog.com
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/93959...y-opinion.html