200-230 km was for last few yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
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200-230 km was for last few yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
Basic structure is clear:Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
ERC Junior = Rally3 cars
ERC3 Junior = Rally4 and Rally5 cars
It was planned to publish today an article describing whole structure of juniors including prizes, but it looks like it will be published little bit later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Yes. ERC1-Junior is likely to lose its importance with this move. Can you imagine Solberg or Muster driving a Rally3 car now? Would it make any sense for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Co-driven
What is the sense of have Junior with same car of overall winners? For me is great move and boost the Rally3 category.
It worked very good and when something works very good it obviously has a good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
The reason for championship existence is not to boost any car category. It's exactly opposite. The cars exist to boost the championships. This change certainly doesn't boost the ERC1-J 2021 in any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
Maybe it's good to change from 2022 but not now. It's done on short notice in a situation when not a single Rally3 car is homologated, when the teams already work on the next year and sudden need to change to a new machinery of dubious availability/servicability is certainly a complication.
Nowhere it's written that the car will be homologated as planned because until it is actually homologated everything can happen. Nowhere it is written that everything connected with the car will go smooth right out of the box. Not that chronic lack of spares etc. would not often come along with the introduction of new cars. Next point being that it looks like only M-Sport car will be actually ready for the season (if even that one will). What can the teams cooperating with other brands do? They can only leave the championship. If that is a good thing I leave to your evaluation.
Last point but not the least important. Why should drivers who already mastered Rally2 cars switch back to Rally3? I doubt any reasonable number of drivers will do that. It means these very good young drivers will simply leave the championship. Do you think it's good? I don't.
But on the other hand, if FIA decides to make a new car class, you also have to have some title to boost sale, same as with R5, to kickstart sales.
Many did not want to swap S2000 for R5, but now 1000 are sold, and class is a big success. Much because of a good joker system.
If run as planned, I think Rally3 will find its place in the pyramid.
If we would test a DS3 R5 vs a Fiesta Rally3 how far back will the newcomer be?
I am guessing the roadholding with newer suspension will help the Fiesta, especially on gravel.
I don't think they will the so far back if not faster. In tarmac it is start to getting difficult to maintain the faster Rally4 behindQuote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
They will be between Rally4 and Rally2 on gravel but they will likely struggle to be faster than Rally4 on asphalt. No, even old R5 will be reasonably faster when properly prepared and driven by the same person. Miracles don't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlyingTuga
why they should go for the junior championship then? if they mastered rc2 they can go for main title.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Rally3 is cheaper? ;)
R5 didn´t have own Championship title in 1st year...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
I also think 2022 would have been right time start own Championship for Rally3.
We just don´t have enough entries for 2021, just look ERC2 results, was it good championship with big entries? NO. Exatly same will happen with ERCJ 2021, no rally with 10 entries.
But that is exactly what they have been doing in ERC. I don't know if you have followed it but the young Rally2 drivers have been competing for both titles. It was a win-win scenario which is now gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
It's not cheaper if you already have Rally2 car and need a new one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
ERCJ has prize money, main title is just title. (Ingram did win title, did 0 rallies with 4WD this year)Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
The main problem in incorporating the Rally3 cars is that they are slower than Rally2 but are intended for the same championship. Everytime a championships goes from faster to slower vehicles it's very problematic hence why it happens very rarely. When S2000 came they were faster than Gr.N (at least on asphalt at the beginning). When R5 came they were faster than S2000 (ar at least similar at the beginning). When Rally4 came they were faster than R2. In all cases switching to them was no big issue. The new cars were simply better and teams switched to them naturally. Now it's different. The change of cars in the very same championship to slower ones mean that all the faster cars which the involved teams already have are useless. In essence it's not much different to fifteen years ago when many national championships banned WRC cars which was a step which is very controversial till this very day.
I know. and that's exactly why you don't need a double. better leave junior to juniors, driver coming up with little experience to 4wd and finding cheaper car than rally 2. if they master rally 2 and can pay for it, they're not really junior (maybe just for their age, but...). if junior can compete for main title there's no point to award them another title (and prize). same way if they cannot compete for main title there's no point to award them a price. i think it's better use a junior championship to develop rising driver. if they can get already a rally2 program they don't need it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
they don't need a new car as much they don't need a junior championship, they can just naturally go on with the main title id they have a rally2 program.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
yep. i would prefer more to give a price to a rising junior coming from rally3 to step to rally 2 than using a rally2 price to fund another junior rally2...
guess rally3 will go as erc2, not with rally2...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
You completely ignore the reality that there are young developing drivers with Rally2 cars heavily and happily involved in ERC. What you suggest is to throw them all under the bus for the sake of attracting some new drivers with some new cars. In other words you tell them to fuck off. That's not a way how to manage a championship if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Regardless of that the reality is that Rally3 is forced to former ERC-1J drivers since 2021.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
not at all. it's quite the opposite. i just think a driver that can afford a rally2 championship has finished the developing ladder and can do the main championship. for me, throwing drivers under the bus is considering drivers in rally2 as a junior...sometimes they're already factory drivers, can't really be juniors. if they aren't, they stays there for the easy money (don't need to beat the big) and then...nothing. just like ingram. pretty much under the bus after winning rally2 junior title. maybe spending half the money for a junior championship could ensure some program later on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
the sake of the jumior championship should be having couple more rally2 a year? not for me.
a good way to manage a championship should be helping drivers to develop a stable career. didn't worked out with 2019 champ. would have worked with 2020 one if his name wasn't solberg? ( I mean he surely deserved it, but he didn't need a junior regional program to boost his career)
[QUOTE=Mirek;1259811
Regardless of that the reality is that Rally3 is forced to former ERC-1J drivers since 2021.[/QUOTE]
key word is former. you assume a former junior has to do junior again. i think a rally2 driver will do rally2 program, regardless of the new junior title. if not he will happily step down because he need it, technically or economically.
The problem is that it never works like you would like it to work. Majority of the competitors stay in the championship till their age allows. That's how it always has been. This is a list of all ERC1-J 2020 competitors.
Munster, Solberg, Llarena, Cais, Marczyk, Dinkel, Devine, Lindholm, Tempestini, Batistolli, Kreim
Tell me which one will stay and switch to Rally3 car? IMHO probably noone. So what will be left of a very competitive championship? A ruin which has to start from zero. Is that worth of making Malcolm Wilson happy?
Anyway time will tell.
If you are a young driver, that has only driven inside your own country, and won most rallies in your class. Probably in a 2wd car.
Next year you would lile to try an international series. you are sitting down with parents or your team to plan for next season.
What is there to choose from:
Erc 3 jr, 2 wd
Erc 2 jr, 4 wd
Erc 1
Jwrc
Wrc 2/3
If this young driver would like to swap to 4wd, and you are going rent a seat in a good team.
The pricetag for a seat in a rally2 and a rally3 car should be very different, thinking of the teams cost of buying and maintaining the two cars.
For many youngsters that difference could be the same as yes or no to an international carreer in rally. Thats why rally3 has its place in the pyramidn. And it is all about budget, and what you are able to get sponsors to help you with.
exactly. very few of them are progressing. they're exploiting it looking for money. when out of age, some stops completely, some just go on like before (tempestini, kreim, lindholm, battistolli, munster, solberg, devine would find a program anyway, and not related with participating in this championship). is this a good thing? Sure from promoter side is good. a money prize to have some more top car. From drivers or general sport not so much for me. I like the new direction more, should bring more driver and more talent to international scenery, helping those with less money to invest. That's good for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
You said it. no-one of this people will do a junior again unless for the money prize. Most of them already had international program, most of them will do main championship anyway. I don't think Wilson is related in much way. anyone can make rally3 car. it's from FIA, not an m-sport invention...they're working on reducing entry cost and favor numbers, it's good that promoter reacts accordingly.
you're right, time will tell, hope for good! : )
Well, I'm quite sure that the reason why this change is scheduled already for 2021 instead of more logical 2022 is to help to keep M-Sport involved in WRC (btw. I agree with a change in 2022, don't get me wrong). It can not be explained in other way when the competitors are forced to use M-Sport car in 2021.
We still don't know the prize ;)
Fabian Kreim
Finally there is something to report!
Today the programs of all Pole Promotion drivers were announced.
Besides those of the circuit cracks René Rast, Sheldon van der Linde, Kelvin van der Linde and Nicki Thiim also ours.
Frank and I will attack in the ERC and try to get as far ahead as possible. Due to the decisions in the VW Group, it is not yet clear whether we can contest the program with the VW Polo R5. But that is definitely our goal and the signs are good!
You will get more information about the program in the coming weeks and months!
can definitely be and sure is at least a part, but for me main reason is trying to convince other manu to commit to rally 3 and not repeatthe bad result of r4 kit, giving them a concrete horizon on why build a rally3 car. r5 was initially more or less the same scheme. everyone but m-sport waited to see if the investment was worth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
M-Sport paves the way from Europe to the world!
3 x Fiesta Rally3 drives for ‘21 ERC3J Champ.
6 x Fiesta Rally3 drives if they win in a Fiesta Rally4.
For the 2021 @FIAERC Junior Champion?
A FULLY FUNDED year in the 2022 @FIAJuniorWRC Championship
https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-pos...he-world-stage
https://www.fiaerc.com/next-generati...c-prize-drive/
Incentive planned for young drivers in Rally2 cars
Drivers under the age of 28 on January 1, 2021, planning to contest the 2021 FIA European Rally Championship in a Rally2 car will be eligible for a package of incentives designed to lower their own financial outlay and increase exposure. Full details will be announced in due course.
so that must mean that 2022 JWRC car is Fiesta Rally3 otherwise ERCJ champion is going from 4wd back to 2wd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
After see the prizes i reinforce my opinion. Great move by all, FIA, ERC and M-Sport.
Maybe Huttunen will try to win ERC for Hyundai, and fill with some WRC runs in wrc and wrc2/3?
Huttunen with Luky would be perfect!
You are right. Maybe someone read your words, because it seems that those drivers are going to get some kind of a "compensation" from Eurosport Events:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
https://www.fiaerc.com/incentive-pla...n-rally2-cars/
Same news of first arcticle. Thet splited the infos. Soon we get more info about that compensation.
any news about Luky?
FIA Regional Rally Championships Regs
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...2020-12-17.pdf
This sounds spot-on.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
The FIA want a full 'ladder' and M-Sport have been the first to commit and create a Rally 3, thus they deserve the reward. Other Manus are also going to be encouraged to join in.
The next-gen of young driver's will also go this route. This is a future long-term plan. The current Rally2 guys are not the target.
Azores could be postponed.
" The uncertainty regarding the evolution of the pandemic depends on the holding of the Azores Rally next year, scheduled for the 25th, 26th and 27th of March.
Without public there is no Rallye.
Who says it is Rui Moniz, president of Grupo Desportivo Comercial.
If that cannot happen, the 2021 race will be canceled or postponed, just as it was this year.
Rui Moniz understands that there are conditions for this to happen, in conjunction with health authorities.
The defense of the president of Desportivo Comercial, after having met with the President of the Government. "
(Antena 1 Açores newspaper from 18h on the 21st of December 2020)
I think this is no surprise. All events could be postponed. Or cancelled. In ERC, in WRC, in national championships... Nobody knows, what will happen next week, so difficult to predict, what will happen in 3-4 months. Lets wait how will the situation evolve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Pacheco
Azores doesn’t looking good. It seems that it is out of national championship calendar.