Maybe include a stage in Guisborough again?
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Maybe include a stage in Guisborough again?
https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1990/GuisboroughQuote:
Originally Posted by T16
in Northern Yorkshire.
Another fantastic addition, thanks Antti!Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I'm a big advocate for Taliesin. The road surface is in really good condition and it's a nice, characterful stage. It's a bit like a mini Myherin. A modern version would probably be better starting/finishing along the more westerly road from the junction 2.08km from the start on your map, as that is the main track through there now and it'd mean you can get at least a 10km stage out of it. Having asked the question, there is apparently no objection to its use on the forestry side. I don't think it's been used on National rallies since the mid 2000s, ewrc seems to indicate the 2006 Plains Rally was the last stage there and Andreas Mikkelsen was quickest!
It's an idea, I haven't walked it but I get the impression it's a pretty slow, narrow stage though. I seem to remember reading an organiser (maybe Colin Heppenstall, Roger Albert Clark Rally) say that they'd never personally use Guisborough again because they had big problems with local scallies from Guisborough coming up in the night and taking down stuff they'd set up for the stage!Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
I didn’t know the Roger Albert Clark went through Guisborough?Quote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
I ride my bike there a lot and it’s definitely wide enough and you could get a fair few miles in there too.
The old RAC did... an ex had lived on the estate that backs onto the forest all her life and she used to walk with her parents to watch it. It’s amazing to imagine 205T16s and S1s blasting around there back in the day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Awesome to see those alternate routes that have been previously used, especially Wales as it’s relevant to today.
I wish I still had the OS stage books that came with the rally pack as I would like to see where the car parks were in relation, parking always seemed to be an afterthought back then.
My database says the stage was driven 1978-1982 and 1990. Not sure though if it was included in other years in an alternate form with another title, but at least not in 1986. And in 1985 both S1's and two of the three 205T16's retired already before Yorkshire.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Interesting. So no group B in Guisborough then?... still ok to imagine it I guess. To be fair, I find it hard to be in a forest without daydreaming of a rally car flying past.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Also, just read up a bit about group B that I didn’t know, which was that there were several ‘classes’ in it.
Cheers for the cracking work you always do with your website and route info AnttiL, especially welcome at the moment.
That's the bit I'm not sure about! I think I saw that comment on the British Rally Forum, I'll try and find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Almost certainly was used on the Mintex/National Breakdown Rally though, the opening round of the BRC. Plenty of Group B cars in that, Peugeot 205 T16 and Audi Quattro Sport on the entry list in 1986.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
I don’t recall if it was used or not in 1986 on the Mintex, but the rally was extremely snowy, lots of cancelled stages....spectators were getting stuck all over the place.Quote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
I found some of the park stage map outlines on a Top Gear Rally Report on YouTube, and managed to get the Trentham Gardens route by using old base maps https://www.old-maps.co.uk/ I also added the routes of Trentham stages of 1986 and 1991 since I wasn't able to figure them out earlier. They're still educated guesses at best since the area has changed so much, but at least better than nothing. The 1986 one, however, is probably still wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally...entham-Gardens
https://i.imgur.com/dkd3SyA.jpg
Just had a look at the link you posted to the 1990 stage in Guisborough.
I’ll head over on the bike and take some photos at some point.
I’ve got a lot of time on my hands right now and this thread got me thinking about how much unique stage mileage there is in Yorkshire, if indeed Guisborough is still useable.
Using everybody’s favourite stage map website, rally-maps.com, I had a look at what last year’s Riponian and Trackrod stages used, took the length of Duncombe Park from the 2011 R.A.C. Rally from ewrc-results.com and added just short of the full length of Oliver’s Mount (does anyone know how much of the circuit tended to be used?).
The difficult part was figuring out how much unique mileage there is in Dalby, without it encroaching on Staindale. Unless I map it out on my very short WFH lunch break I can only guess - two stages of Dalby, or it could be one 25+ km one.
Here’s what I’ve got, I was actually surprised how many km there is, in a single pass of each too.
1. Duncombe Park - 3.81km
2. Oliver’s Mount - 3.89km
3. Guisborough - 7.34km
4. Boltby - 5.91km
5. Wass Moor - 6.16km
6. Cropton - 12.96km
7. Gale Rigg - 7.81km
8. Langdale - 13.44km
9. Staindale - 9.24km
10. Dalby North - 13.43km
11. Dalby South - 13.44km
97.07km
In reality for an international rally, it would be two passes, possibly starting with Duncombe, then Oliver’s Mount, then Guisborough (would consecutive passes be possible? To stop the cars having to come back round to the North side of the North York Moors), then on to Boltby & Wass, second pass of Duncombe and then the stages in North Riding Forest.
Some more for the Yorkshire list
Newton House/ Pike Hill
Harwood Dale
Low North
Broxa
Wykeham/ Troutsdale
Wykeham South
Bickley/ Broad Head
Roppa/ Cowhouse Bank/ East Moor
Riccaldale
Middleheads
Duncombe Park
Deer Park/ Sproxton Moor
Sproxton/ Pry Rigg
Sutton Bank
Over Silton
Arncliffe Wood
Broughton Plantation
Ingleby
Think that I have watched in all of these.
Are those all still in use/available to use? I read in the thread for last year’s R.A.C. Rally that at least Wykeham has ‘been lost’. Considering the National Breakdown/Talkland Rally up until the ‘90s used to go into 3+ hours of running I can only imagine there were much more forests available for rallying!
No, Most have not been used for years. Checking my maps, I am not sure about Arncliffe Wood but the others I have got routes for.
Just spotted something in my database for Bransdale moor but it would have been from before 1980.
Hopefully in time me and Antti will be to add something of interest regarding Yorkshire... ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProSpec
Varies. Taking some of those listed, Wykeham/Troutsdale is a near total loss, as seemingly a landslide (which I guess happened in the early 90s?) at the west end cut the track off as a through route. It's a shame as the bulk of the track is in really nice condition. This stage included a popular bowl like section on the east side, but I don't think the surface in that bit is in prime condition. Funnily enough I only went to have a look at the situation in Wykeham/Troutsdale just before the lockdown and took these photos:Quote:
Originally Posted by HKSjbg
Looking East towards the stage:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Cx...11460675638727
Looking West at the same spot:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sC...11460675638727
Roppa/ Cowhouse Bank/ East Moor, Riccaldale and Deer Park/ Sproxton Moor have been used on the Riponian in recent years, though IIRC permission to use them may have been withdrawn by the owner a couple of years ago?
Bickley is another one I've walked. Parts are in really good condition, parts would very much need re-grading. A few pictures:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/IP...11460675638727
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ye...11460675638727
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UK...11460675638727
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UY...11460675638727
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jk...11460675638727
Its probably 20 years since I was last in the Yorkshire moors. Used to love that area due to the many ways into the stages. But the outbreak of Foot and Mouth changed things and i would imagine that the present Corona virus will kill even more off.
It's interesting watching the local rally onboards to see how the old stages were (although changes always occur during decades). Here's Tour of Hamsterley 2013, using the same roads which formed the Hamsterley/County Durham Stage in the 80's/90's.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...w10rX9yzl_j5Yw
I will probably add that to rally-maps, but here are the three first stages on one map https://www.mapfab.com/map/ASDo/Tour-of-Hamsterley-2013
Grizedale, Kielder, Dalby etc. are well available on Youtube. Usually searching with the rally title and year, perhaps with the stage number (like SS01) will get you somewhere. You just need to know which stage was ran in which rally and as which stage number.
Yeah I found a few great onboards from last year’s Riponian, Gale Rigg has got to be my new favourite stage in that region - there’s a noticeable lack of hay-bale chicanes. Tom Cave & Matt Edwards also have a few good ones on their channels - Pirelli, Scottish Rally and the like.
There’s quite a lot of content of Grizedale from various channels/drivers - I just need 20 minutes to sit and watch it without interruption!
Yeah. I often challenge myself and try to pick the route onto the map from the onboard alone (like I did for Hamsterley above). Good fun, but hours pass easily like minutes :D
If only I could do that for a living, I would happily make painstakingly complex rally stage maps through onboards 😁
This is a great Kielder onboard from Pirelli 2019. The stage is called The Forks and it has run as Bewshaugh and Broomylinn under different configuration. The first 5 min are quite technical, then it gets very fast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XiPUxfpru8
This is the route, but in reverse https://www.rally-maps.com/Pirelli-I...2018/The-Forks
Thanks, that’s my lunchtime viewing sorted!
This thread inspired me to fine-tune my design for a Carlisle-based Rally GB. At first I attempted my previously mentioned idea of moving the cars to Wales for Sunday, but the liaisons became unbearable without using remote services. I thought it would be a great idea to do Grizedale on Saturday afternoon and then just continue over to Wales, but I forgot the cars need to be serviced before that.
If only Friday would be driven in Lake District, then the drivers would have two days of driving in Wales, but that would require another long liaison to mid-Wales, which I doubt they will want to do. So in the end I ditched the idea of combining Wales and Lake District.
I even tried to make a schedule for the rally using the formula of one minute per kilometre (stage or liaison) with 5-10 minutes added to the equation. The same service and regroup times are used as on real rallies of today. I think it worked out fine and the Saturday structure is close to that of Wales Rally GB 2017 with some night stages.
The full itinerary is here and the map here
Thursday super special is Lowther (used in 1986, modified a bit).
Friday consists of a leg North with Twiglees, Craik, Redesdale, Falstone and Pundershaw. I have modified the stages to remove the most straight sections and sometimes adding some new roads.
Saturday goes to Grizedale (combined West and East stages) through Wythop and Comb. I faced again the problem of going to Grizedale and thinking "what's next", because there is very few known stages near it. Of course it would be possible to find new stages or maybe there's something I'm not aware of.
Thus, after the first round of these three stages the cars go to Hamsterley, which is driven twice with a single run of Stang in between (this could also be a super special as well). The second run of Hamsterley is preceded by a regroup to ensure there's enough time between two runs and also to make sure the cars are in time for the televised stage. After the service the Wythop-Comb-Grizedale loop is repeated, most likely with darkness falling.
Sunday is driven at West Kielder and on Scotland's side, relatively close to the service park. I chose the Bewshaugh stage whose onboard I posted last night, but it ends after the technical section as it would suit the current cars the best. Power stage is then Newcastleton, on roads which have been a part of the Kershope stage in the 90's. The ending of the stage is shown in the other direction on this video until 1:20. It would make up great helicopter shots over the river bank. The ending would then be on tarmac here and the podium up on the hill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
This is awesome...would be great to go to those locations again for WRC.. you never know, someone who could make use of it might get hold of it and start a process....here’s hoping anyway!
Thanks! I know that the real organizers could also put together this kind of schedule (for sure a better one), but it's down to other things (coughmoneycough) to get the rally arranged.Quote:
Originally Posted by doubled1978
Depends on the local tourism board I guess as ‘Wales’ is currently the sponsor of Rally GB. There’s no reason why Cumbria/Northumberland/Scottish Borders/Dumfries and Galloway wouldn’t want to promote tourism in and around the various beauty spots in that part of the world. Whether the lot of them could pool together to fund a WRC round is another matter...
Of course, but sometimes it just takes the right person to see something like this, and then the wheels begin to turn. Hey it might just be something fun for us speculate about on the forum, but you never know..Quote:
Originally Posted by HKSjbg
Either way it’s given me something to pour over for an afternoon in lockdown, so thanks Antti!
Someone else mapped RAC 1989! https://www.rally-maps.com/RAC-Rally-1989
Only a couple of stages to map :DQuote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Great, just had a quick look and the Hafren stages are quite interesting. Hafren 1 finished in what is now the car park....it’s quite a good downhill section.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Seems quite strange now for the rally at the end of the day in Wales, to go all the way back to Nottingham overnight in the East Midlands, a few short stages the next morning and then all the way back to Grizedale in the West. That’s a lot of liaison for a few short stages.
The problem is, you're trying to appease too many chiefs. Look at some of the compromises that have been made on Wales Rally GB over the years to appease the politicians who pay the bills. At least all the politicians there are supporters of Wales as a whole at the end of the day. If you're splitting it between Cumbria/Northumberland/Scottish Borders/Dumfries and Galloway, maybe Yorkshire too, who pays what and who get's the most out of it? Plus out of those I think only Yorkshire has an organised approach to marketing themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by HKSjbg
Prior to Convid 19 I thought there were only three alternatives to Wales Rally GB; a Scottish based/local Gov funded event, a Northern Irish based/Gov funded event, a Northern English event or an event like that modelled by Antti or me, but with a large private sponsor, probably from a company headed by a stereotypically proud Brexiteer Englishmen keen to take Rallying back to the Golden Age! Post Convid 19, I think the last option is the only realistic alternative, or only option if Wales pull out! For example, JCB Rally GB does have a certain ring to it... :D
The organisers of RallyGB have put all their eggs in the Welsh money basket; when that stops (as it surely will sooner or later) then they'll have a real problem. The event has been in Wales since 2000, and also, during that time, the visibility, media coverage of the sport has fallen immensely. One wonders if other regions have shown any real interest during this time; but baulked as the money needed was not good value?
I've always maintained that if the sport and event were healthy, then commercial sponsors would provide the backing, rather than any regions/tourist boards. In an ideal world, there would a rotation between regions/areas, for example, on a 3 year basis - so that large parts of the country get to see the event every so often. It's also a way of freshening up the event; it has to be said, it has become a bit too familiar, with most of the same stages year after year.
There was a time when the unveiling of the old RAC route was something to get excited about; now you more or less know what stages will be used - though sometimes they pull a 'surprise' with a new 'spectator stage' not used since 19xx
If we look at this closer: all the forest stages have been driven solely in Wales since 1997. The last year with a full day of spectator stages in England was 1999.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
In my mind I split Wales to three regions: North, Mid (Myherin, Hafren etc) and South. From 1997 to 2000 it was South and Mid Wales stages, from 2001 to 2007 only South Wales. In 2008 they added again Mid Wales stages until 2012 with 2011 being an oddball year being based in Builth Wells and covering stages all across Wales. Since 2013 it has then been a mix of North and Mid Wales stages.
I'm not completely familiar with the history of RAC rally but I believe Elsi and Gwydir (in its 2019 form) are new stages introduced in the last decade. Brenig has featured in 1992 and 1993 but not sure of the route.
I find myself even now wishing it would at least move back to mid-south Wales i.e. Crychan, Halfway, Epynt, Radnor etc. just for a change. That might have something to do with Radnor being my ‘local’ stage - unless WRGB came to Haye Park or Forest of Dean :p
In an ideal world I’d like to see it rotate a bit so we see the cars tackling central Scottish stages like Drummond Hill, Craigvinean etc. Yorkshire, the Lakes and Kielder/Scottish Borders.
But to be honest the way things are going I’ll just be glad if it keeps going at all.
I heard that Welcome to Yorkshire were looking at rallying (I'm not sure how seriously), I guess around 2010 or so, but opted to put their focus into cycling and bringing the Tour de France over. I don't think there can be any doubt that cycling proved to be the right decision for the region.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Now they've got the opportunity to look at something else, I think unfortunately they aren't currently in a position of strength.
I think it was pretty serious if memory serves; however it was an IRC round, which could have been good. But, the chance to host the Grand Depart came up - and its a no brainer really. Massive major sporting event, huge influx of visitors, and international media.... and the legacy of the Tour de Yorkshire which sees massive crowds, even with only a handful of World Tour teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
Simply put - Rallying couldn't/ can't compete with that.
Also, as result of the backing of the Grand Depart, Welcome to Yorkshire pulled their funding for the Dalby round of the UCI MTB XCO World Cup, and sadly, it has never returned; which is were Nino won his first Elite race.
This entire thread gave me an idea.
An entirely tarmac Wales Rally GB.
I've mostly stuck to stages that are known to work, for example most of the stages on Friday are from Rali Bae Ceredigion, with one stage I straight-up made up, and one long stage on the Epynt ranges, as run on the Tour of Epynt 2011. Saturday is a bit weird, as most of the day's mileage is over the border, taken from the Three Shires, and it runs into the night, with the entire second loop being night stages. However I feel it could work, especially with a national/historic rally doing a single loop between the two loops of the international field, with Eastnor Park feeling a lot like the spectator stages of RACs gone by. In addition, Caerwent would be a unique stage within the WRC, with it normally being used to host single venues.
Finally, Sunday is 3 stages I just made up, looking for suitable roads in South Wales. From looking at Google Earth, they all seem fast, bumpy and narrow, like a typical Irish stage, and like a lot of the Rali Bae Ceredigion stages.
Obviously, an actual organiser could do much better, probably ditching the Three Shires stages, but a tarmac Wales Rally GB is certainly possible, and would be a great way to shake the event up.
Your spreadsheet isn't public, but the idea sounds fun