So, if all beat boggie stupid time, Evans never will win this rally f.e. The faster can't win time to others.
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So, if all beat boggie stupid time, Evans never will win this rally f.e. The faster can't win time to others.
So propose a solution that will not increase the costs for organisers; yes the problem can be solved by throwing money at it but with the threatened increase in Welsh Forestry charges, which if it goes through will more than likely spread to the whole UK, the sport is in already in crisis in the UK. Not to mention the number of organisers quitting the sport because the work load imposed by the new safety regime has become too much for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
At the current moment there are 46 competitors classified and none of them are tied. Having anyone beat the bogey time is highly unsatisfactory for competitors and organisers but sometimes miscalculations occur.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
Why didnt they have someone test these stages and if they are very fast just put a couple of haybale chicanes in... I 've seen this done on many occaisions.
I admitt I don't know how insurance is done in UK rallies but the issue will only get bigger and bigger. The cars will be faster every year. That's simple fact and the system must count with that. There is no other way because insisting on this system leads to a farce which we see here now. I am sorry to say that but it's not a rally wort following anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Liddle
Here in CZ there is a fixed maximum average speed given by ASN for safety reasons and if that is reached by at least three drivers or by at least one non-priority driver the stage is canceled for the second run and must be modified or replaced for next edition. The achieved times are still counted even if they are over the allowed average speed simply because cutting what's faster is unfair and ruins the sporting side of the event. One of the results of this system is those damned chicanes but it's still better to have some chicanes in stage than no stage at all.
Report coming now that Ahlin's SS4 time is incorrect and he's likely still leading !
A couple of tweets from the BRC:
1/2 We share the frustration of fans, drivers and teams but the Bogey issue is out of our hands. #BRC
2/2 The UK legislation allows a max average speed of 70mph on gravel rallies. This is not a BRC issue but legislation of this country. #BRC
I'll duck out of the discussion as I'm confident I don't really know what I'm talking about. Just a shame it couldn't have been anticipated and changes made prior to the event.
That sounds like a reasonable system. What is the average speed specified by the ASN and how often is the second running of stages cancelled?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
DMack:
It's a rally organiser issue, they are aware of the rules and should plan the stages to suit. https://t.co/1AJyJyfzmG
It's 120 km/h and we have only asphalt events (it used to be 130 km/h but it was lowered as a result of the crisis with several deadly accidents several years a go). If I remember right two or three stages were canceled over the 2015 season within both the national championship and the rallysprint series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Liddle
That's true but the issue is that the rule doesn't penalize the organizer for selecting unsuitable stage but the crews instead and in the same time it makes not much for the safety. Hiding the real time doesn't make the crews magically slow down. They keep driving as fast as they can and the only result of all this is that the risk they take is for nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
IMS are running/promoting the BRC - then surely they should have a dedicated team who organise the events; the local organising club just add expertise for 'their' event. Time the BRC was 'centralised'; every event should be similar, rather than the disparate series of events we have now. Where is the YouTube coverage like on the CoI??Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
Ok 120 km/h is essentially the same as the 75mph now allowed in the UK for sealed surface events. I don't suppose the crews lower down the field who can't achieve the speeds of the leading crews are happy to lose stage mileage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
The organisers get penalised by the criticism from the affected crews and the adverse publicity.Quote:
That's true but the issue is that the rule doesn't penalize the organizer for selecting unsuitable stage but the crews instead and in the same time it makes not much for the safety.
I agree with you.Quote:
Hiding the real time doesn't make the crews magically slow down. They keep driving as fast as they can and the only result of all this is that the risk they take is for nothing.
So who foots the bill for a full time paid organising team?Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Elfyn Evans: 'Whoever said 'it's about taking part' was obviously talking about this rally!'
So three more stages tomorrow, and more potential for bogey times to be beaten according to Dmack, per conversations with the organisers. So basically a complete farce and a huge oversight by someone. Simply saying "those are the rules, we can't do anything about them" isn't good enough.
If you know the problem you should take steps to combat it.
The volunteers that organise the event don't want this to happen, the crews don't want it to happen and the spectators don't want it to happen. Unfortunately mistakes get made and an organising team can only take a best guess at the likely speed of the stage. I suspect that in this case they're using bogey times based on previous runnings of the stage which haven't been an issue and simply didn't allow enough contingency for how quick the BRC boys would be this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
I think people also need to remember the position we're in WRT the BRC. The last time it had genuinely quick drivers in quick cars must be getting on for a decade ago, before the stupid Group N regs and then the 2WD stuff all came in. Simply put, people aren't used to a top level British championship attracting properly quick drivers from overseas.
Fair enough, still the sooner the rule is changed the better.
Statement from the organisers:
http://www.pirellicarlislerally.co.u...he-organisers/
As close as you can get to saying sorry without actually apologizing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Doesn't sound too good for tomorrow's stages either...
What a joke.
Just when the BRC was actually getting good they go and shoot themselves in the foot.
I can't believe the organisers can be that cash strapped. There is enough money in the sport to buy and run all these R5 cars suddenly.
SS6 Bogey time beaten.. :(
Well it's got to be IMS - they're hardly short of cash. If they want to be involved and run the BRC, then do it properly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Liddle
They seem to be saying it's not their fault about the bogeys; if it's their series, then they should have more of a role in each event.
Sadly, the event has become a farce.
Congrats to Ahlin. After Evans' problem I think he would have been the rally winner regardless of bogey times. I think he might even have been quickest through SS1. Not sure about the other two lost stages. But it still leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. Glad I went to the previous two rounds and not this one.
Disappointing oversight and I stand by my original post that the organisers need more high level help on these events. The fans in the stages certainly aren't a consideration this year, so you'd better make doubly sure the competitors are happy.
As a spectator Simmi what you'd have been watching would have been exactly the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
Seems a few 'knowledgeable' folk on here, mybe you could offer some of your time to help organise?
I've done it and won't be doing anymore, its hard work and outside your immediate team its totally thankless.
As well as the rally win Fredrik Aahlin leads the BRC after playing his 'joker'. Ahlin 65 with Evans second with 60 points.
SS6 - Elfyn Evans completed in 5.28.1, the nominal time given to him was 5.52.0. Nearly 24 seconds faster over 6.83 miles !
Evans was significantly quicker than Ahlin on the other two stages were the bogey was beaten but Ahlin would still have won. Without bogeys Evans would been second rather than third but the rest of the top five would be unchanged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
They had the support of a WRC Clerk of the Course and a WRC Deputy Clerk of the Course; what level of support do you envisage?Quote:
Disappointing oversight and I stand by my original post that the organisers need more high level help on these events.
What a farce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Shame for David Bogie, going off on SS5... was having a good run... :(
I would suggest some common sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Liddle
Also I have to say that I find the limit 65 mph as way too low for modern cars and tyres. From the observation all around the world it's very clear that asphalt events are way more dangerous than gravel ones and trying to keep the average speed on gravel so low isn't really necessary.
The average used was increased from the start of 2015 and is now 70mph and I have checked the calculations for the Pirelli and they are correct at 70mph.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
I probably agree, however, if an incident was to take place and you were forced to answer questions in court would you be suitably qualified to give that answer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Would anyone be?
If an insurer insists on something being done in order to cover an event, then you have to do it.
The issue with rallying is that the roads are natural. You can't just make them significantly slower. In the same time the cars and tyres get faster and faster. The negotiations between the national authority and the insurance companies shall always consider the reality. It doesn't help anyone to live in some outer space and hope that the organizers will somehow cope with what You define even if that is very hard to achieve.
For sure we can blame the organizers for not being able to build the route in such a way that it fits the regulations. But was that even possible? How many stages would hit the bogey time during the WRC event in Wales? Are they more dangerous than those in Pirelli rally?
There are countries where the average speed on gravel hits even 90 mph and they run such stages even in WRC/ERC (Finland, Estonia, Latvia for example). It's mainly given by the geography and there's not much You can do about it. That's why the limits were canceled in WRC events. The stage needs to be inspected by experienced people but nobody cares about the average speed anymore as the easiest way to bring speed down is to put a hell of chicanes on the stage. Nobody likes them and they aren't always good for the safety (we have quite a lot of accidents in chicanes by the way).
Enough drivel from me. Even if we consider the limit as necessary the rules shall be made that way that they don't ruin the event from the sporting point of view and that they actually do something for safety. Bogey times aren't a good solution for neither of the two points of view.
What a shame. Frankly it's a miracle that the BRC is doing so well when it has so many obstacles in its way to making a recovery... Looking at the difference between the bogey time and the quickest times, surely they'd need to use an unreasonable number of chicanes to slow them down enough for the bogey time to clearly not become a factor in play? If there's any respect for the sport I think they must bite the bullet, they're going to have to run it as an International event, apply for the speed dispensation on the insurance and pay the price if necessary. Here though IMS must step in to assist, as the rally organisers/competitors can not be expected to do everything for the BRC! At the end of the day, the BRC is their 'product' to invest in. Avoiding shambles like we've seen this weekend should be their top priority!
I can accept the reasons for us spectators being forced out of the sport, I can appreciate the realities of why these rallies have to be embarrassingly short nowadays, but surely there's enough money and common sense to be found in this sport that a small but significant competition can avoid being undermined by what is, essentially, a senseless box ticking exercise?
As for the rally, congratulations to Ahlin. I'd be interested to know why he chose to use his joker here though? It certainly worked out for him, but as far as I can see he had no prior experience of the stages in 'Killer Kielder'! Also I've got to say I'm surprised and impressed by Matthew Wilson. Obviously he had a good car under him, but having been out of rallying for so long and with much of his time in WRC being spent in what N.O.T might describe as the 'useless dog' class, I didn't expect him to show so well here! While he owes us nothing, I'd like to see him do BRC for a couple of seasons with these kind of performances to somewhat redeem his name in the sport. I imagine he'll be going back to doing business in M-Sport though unfortunately.
Even with the timing shambles, I'm still looking forward to TV highlights. It'll be good to see all these fast cars on the Kielder stages.
Wilson doing testing work all the time, if I´m not wrong. Should give him best practise. Åhlin well worth victory, which btw seems not give him much comments or credit. I don´t know why? Bcs he´s not english...?
but now I must ask - what´s that all about bogey times? Are the BRC not allowed to have rallies in which stages must be ran under 65 mph in average? If so it´s a joke. On gravel that is.
Have a look at Finland, that´s my only comment.
Or anyone explain to me if there are any other views on this matter.
The events are not running as International events but as UK National A events. The specified average speed for a National A event on unsealed roads is 70 mph not 65 mph as you state. The roads in Kielder that the Pirelli Rally was using are particularly fast for UK forests. I am sure the event organisers and IMS (the championship promoters) will be doing all they can to make sure the situation does not arise again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
I didn't even look at the results because of this farce with the bogey times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Why is it a farse? Does the times not count on stages over 70mph in average - and if so, how many was that?Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
Yes, You can't score an official time better than the bogey time. This time it affected 3 of 7 stages with up to 13 competitors per stage (SS6).