Aaaaaamen!Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
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Aaaaaamen!Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
A few years ago I thought hybrids should be in the WRC - no longer though. Leave all the 'road relevance' type technology to the WEC: which does it so much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack4688`
+10 That’s the key issue what is ecological or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
That doesn’t mean that all the current will go true the water. Considering water and a human body two different resistors, they are connected in parallel. Googling for some “facts”:Quote:
Originally Posted by itix
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock
Body resistance[edit]
The voltage necessary for electrocution depends on the current through the body and the duration of the current. Ohm's law states that the current drawn depends on the resistance of the body. The resistance of human skin varies from person to person and fluctuates between different times of day. The NIOSH states "Under dry conditions, the resistance offered by the human body may be as high as 100,000 Ohms. Wet or broken skin may drop the body's resistance to 1,000 Ohms," adding that "high-voltage electrical energy quickly breaks down human skin, reducing the human body's resistance to 500 Ohms."[15]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_resistance
the electrical resistivity of water (0.2 Ω·m sea water, 2 to 200 Ω·m drinking water, 18000 Ω·m deionized water at 20°C)
If a dry human body has a resistance of 100 000 ohm and the water has 2 ohm and both connected in parallel with a voltage of 600 V, the current true the water would be 300,000 A (assuming no fuse blown) and true the body 0,006 A = 6 mA (total current = 300,006 A)
If the resistance of the skin is broken and the resistance will decrease to 1000 ohm the result will be:
True water = 300 A
True body = 0,6 A = 600 mA which would be lethal.
Total current = 300,6 A
Some facts about voltage & current: true a human body.
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/demobook/chapter4.htm
Average Effects of Continuous ac or dc Electrical Currents on Healthy Adults
Electrical Current Biological Effect
1 mA threshold for feeling
10-20 mA voluntary let-go of circuit impossible
25 mA onset of muscular contractions
50-200 mA ventricular fibrillation or cardiac arrest
And from a Finnish web site http://www.epanorama.net/faq/sfnet.h...hkoverkko.html
Mitä erisuuruiset ihmiskehon läpi kulkevat virrat vaikuttavat? (How does different amount of current through the human body affect?)
From and above 50mA. Dangerous threshold. The current will affect the heart. If the current affects longer than 0,5 sec, it will cause a heart-stopping or ventricular fibrillation.
From 80 mA and above. Lethal.
As can been seen it’s not all about the voltage but how much current goes true the human body and also about the route true the body (true the heart or not).
Also the resistance of a human body is dependent off the voltage and it will decrease if the voltage increase. With 230 V voltage the resistance is about 11,7 kohm from hand to hand and about 1 k ohm from hand to leg. Also the durability of the shock is vital.
And don’t ever never disconnect the green-yellow wire. It’s not there for fun.
You have to remember that they are not in fact connected in parallel unless the battery pack is submerged and some idiot breaks into the car, opens the cover, and touches both the poles (plus and minus).
That is extremely unlikely. In a real situation where the battery pack or an MGU connected to the battery pack gets shorted by water (which already is unlikely), the connection is going to be water to human to water in parallel with water only and water to body shell to water (very much preferred by electricity) and water to earth to water... So human is about the last thing the battery pack will go through.
Also the voltage over human won't be 600v or 800v or whatever, as much of the current will pass through the water.
Voltage over human would be too small to even be felt (or probably even measured). If you put a volt meter across two points in water that you have shorted with high voltage you are going to get a very small voltage (if even detectable if you have a larger amount of water) as you can in theory see the water as veeeery many resistors in series and the voltage will distribute across them. If you measure between the terminals you are going to get 800v but across two points in the water, just a few micro volt (if even that).
If you ever witness a generator overload test, you can try this if you like. It is done by lowering all three phases into the water and shorting them until the point where the generator overloads and the security systems cut in.
If you have any power plant close to you that is being commissioned, make a study visit with a volt meter and you will see!
(Oh and I knew about the 50mA lethal current... I have studied all of these things... I am not worried about the safety aspects of a hybrid rally car in water... Cost of hybrid rally car and feasibility and many other things yes, but safety aspects no).
http://www.motoring.com.au/next-suba...hybrid-100477/
Rumours about next WRX generation. The first hybrid in rallying or the definitive end of N4?
One thing I almost forgot about is the resistivity. Maybe it has something to do with that it’s almost 40 years since I was studying electrical engineering.:)
However here have been talks about the resistance of water but water, as any other conductor, water don’t have a specific total resistance but the resistance (or impedance) depend on what kind of water (the resistivity of the conductor) and how much water is in question (the length and area of the conductor). The more water the less resistance.
With a cable it’s more simply because with a cable the electricity come in (usually) from one end and go out from the other end and the resistivity, length and area of the cable is known. With water it’s more complicated because in a case of an accident the circumstance varies a lot i.e. the type of water, the length and area of the water conductor.
The resistance is:
R (ohm) = resistivity of the conductor (ohm meter) * length of conductor (m) / area of conductor (m2)
As you can see in a case of electrical accident in water it can be difficult to assess the length and area of the water conductor and also with the resistivity if the type of water is not known.
Interesting article about bath tube accidents with self-testing (crazy):D. Nothing to do directly with hybrid cars but however with electricity and water.
http://www.powerlogic.com.au/Attachm...iegelmeier.pdf
As said in the summary the path electric source – human in – human out – water – ground or other terminal is more dangerous than the path electric source – water - human in – human out – water – ground or other terminal.
The case with my example was mainly to show that how a small fraction of the total current can be lethal to a human if a human body is in parallel with any other low level resistance.Quote:
Originally Posted by itix
In the picture below the human is in parallel with the load of the electric system. Imaging that the dotted line is water and the minus terminal is in water, the body and the water would be in series and parallel with the load. Now the question is: What is the probability for this kind of accident to happen. Luckily the bird is safe.
http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/00056.png
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/text...-current-path/
Btw, idiots always exists. It seems that a very common electrical accident is when some idiots are climbing on the roof of a train.
http://www.tukes.fi/tiedostot/sahko_...nunen_2013.pdf
On page 137
APPENDIX 1. Fatal electrical accidents in the Nordic Countries in 2007-201
The latest one was this New Year eve. Someone had clime on the roof on a train and had burned sot bad that even the gender couldn’t be defined at the first place. It’s said that the safe distance from a train power line (25 kV) is at least 2 meter.
I’m far from an expert but after reading http://electronics.stackexchange.com...-as-a-resistor this maybe it’s the wrong way to measure the voltage just to put the small probes of a volt meter in the water. Maybe what you said (voltmeter across two points) was just an expression. As I said I’m not an expert in this case but as I understand to get the true value of the voltage/current (or measuring the resistance) true the water is to have electrodes covering the whole area of the water where current/voltage is applied to the water (+ terminal of a battery or the “hot” wire of a house case) and electrodes covering the whole area of water where the current goes back to the source, i.e. path from terminal to terminal in a battery case or a path from “hot” wire to ground in a house case or vice versa. (- terminal of a battery or the ground in a house case).Quote:
Originally Posted by itix
I didn’t doubt that you didn’t know about that. I didn’t remember the actual value, only that’s very small. That’s why I had to search for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by itix
No, we didn’t do such drastic laboratory works. And I won’t try it at home by putting the three phases of our sauna heater in the water.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by itix
The incident with the train is fairly easy... in that case the human is the only conductor connecting the power to earth and the super high voltage (16 kv in sweden... don't know what finnish train systems run) can actually arc the air to human due to the high voltage and conduct to earth. Just a shame that railway operators have to be responsible for these idiots... let them burn I say!Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
In the case of the rally car, we still have to conclude that both poles have to be earthed through the water for this to work. It is true that different kind of water conduct differently... distilled fresh water is the worst conductor and salt water the best (due to the ions and free electrons etc etc). We know that we need a relatively high voltage to create any current in a human person.
This is why 12v and 24v systems can be touched and nothing happens...
We also know that voltage in a system of resistances distribute over the highest resistor with the greatest voltage and the lesser resistors with lesser voltage when in series.
We also know that the most current pass "the path of least resistance".
Below is a very simplified diagram of the situation. In reality it is endlessly more complicated but it is a simple map to help us understand what happens.
http://i68.tinypic.com/ff4zs6.jpg
As seen in the diagram (where I have lied a bit and connected the left hand of human to the minus pole... but hey, resistors are addable in series so), the voltage over human is distributed over water 4 (I named the waters differently but in reality as it is just one big body of water so we could all have named them the same but for understanding, better like this) and then human... so it won't be many volts over human as the body of water 4, even in salt water, have resistance per meter and cable area...
Now if human really was in series with water only and was touching the minus pole, 100% of the current would pass through human... but that is not the case because there is earth, water and body shell also in parallel and they are much preferred path of the current to take so the current passing through human will be microscopic... at best.
You need to remember that there is no ground in a battery system of a car (other than the bodyshell which is used as a common 0 of sorts... I guess you can regard that as ground but it is important to remember that it is not the ground you stand on).Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
The reason why trains and all other land based electricity is dangerous is because it returns through ground (yep, that is right, the 0 cables (blue) of almost all land based equipment today, including high voltage transformers etc etc, are earthed and return the current through ground... and yet you don't get fried when you put a shovel in the ground... same thing as the rally car in the water really). When you touch any live electric bit, it always wants to return to earth... which is exactly why the bird in your chart is fine even if it were to sit on a live wire where the insulation is gone... the bird does not touch earth.
I don't think your fuses would survive it and you probably have an earth fault breaker as well... so go ahead ;) Ok no probably not, unforseen things will probably happen, but theoretically you'll be fine!Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
Generator tests are done without fuses and other safety equipment hahahaha, but there is a safety parameter... mostly because the pahses are live and bare and not because of the water... it is very interesting to watch :)
Since we now have (Plug-in) Hybrid Rally1 Cars, would you say it was the right move or do you guys think they should've gone away with it earlier than this season?
not right move, should have continued with ICE gasoline cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
#myopinion
(I understand that world is going Green but I still like my rallying with gasoline/diesel only)
Certainly not the right move. GTWC 24h Spa 2022, on July 28-31 there will be 65 cars participating, 23 PRO teams (including Valentino Rossi which already is providing the GT show with its biggest merchandising stand :rotflmao:) participating GT3s from Aston Martin, Audi, Bentley, BMW, Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Mercedes-AMG and Porsche, lined up by customer teams and those with official support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
https://it.motorsport.com/gtwc-endur...26282/?nrt=209
Unlike the Hybrid Rally1 Cars, all official GT3s can be acquired by customer teams. The only big draw back with GTWC (and WEC too) is that deadening BoP which is a disgrace for all true racing. But that doesn't matter here because it is the customer model which counts and that make the GT show a gold mine for the official constructors. With a rumored price tag of 0,5 mil dollar each GT3 they are much cheaper than the current Rally1 cars and the GT3s have much more road relevancy.
What's your point here? You know that GT3 is to circuit racing the same what is Rally2 to rally?
The Rally1 cars are a blast when experiencing live on the rally stage. No doubt about that. Although you need to be careful with comparisons because the power to weigh ratio of Rally1 and GT3 might be very close. But actually in WRC there are only 2,5 constructors for those Rally1 cars which makes the current WRC absolutely not sustainable. And the budget saving measures (less testing and upgrades) are making it even worser. Adamo in his latest Rallysimo interview was already suggesting some souped up Rally2 car to replace the current crop of expensive Rally1 cars. My point is 2 fold:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
1) The GTWC championship is organised by SRO Motorsports Group, not the FIA, it was in fact SRO who launched the whole GT3 hoopla not the FIA, so trusting the FIA with the very future of WRC might not be the best idea; even DTM is jumping ship to GT3 (the move from Class 1 to GT3 attracted more manufacturers and teams in DTM that couldn't previously compete in the series due to high cost!!!!) even Le Mans will get GT3 in 2024
2) The current crop of Rally1 do not have a viable customer model just like GT3 and its feeder series do have (for example, adding up the first and second generations of the Audi R8 LMS, a total of 275 GT3 sports cars have been built of this type). You can not even participate with a Rally1 car in a national Rally championship (at least not in Belgium I think)
Have any of the teams managed to put in an electric AC yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Still where Kenneth was because I don't think this comparison stands up. What about the prototype and hypercars in the GT space, aren't they the better direct comparison for Rally1? And does GTWC carry the same prestige and pinnacle in world GT racing as WRC is to Rallying? (ie better than WEC, I don't know) Nobody designed or approved hybrid Rally1 with customers, regional or local events/championships in mind; maybe Adamo initially disagreed with that but ultimately he went along with it. If your point is top level world rally should be accessible to all, fair enough, but I'm not sure GT3 makes great reasoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergiow
I can answer some of those GT questions:Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
I wouldn't consider prototypes on the same ladder as GT cars, they're on a different ladder: LMP1/Hypercars, LMP2, LMP3.
GT cars' ladder is GTE, GT3, GT4.
To the mainstream medias, WEC is far more important than GTWC, mainly because of Le Mans and prototypes. This year GTWC gained notoriety because of Valentino Rossi joining, otherwise it wasn't much more than Spa 24h for the mainsteam medias.
But speaking about the prestige given by the fans, I've never met a GT racing enthusiast who prefers WEC over GTWC (some prefers even the GT4 championship), and I agree. GTWC has many more manufacturers compared to the 2-3 in the WEC GTE, much better balance of performance (not uncommon at all that one of the 2-3 manufacturers in GTE has almost no chance of winning a race because of weight/power) and in GTWC the focus is always on GT cars.
For my taste, GTWC is the best circuit racing series around.
The situation about Rally1/WRC being only for manus, expensive and not able to start in local rallies has been basically the same since like 2006. (and they are not 100% correct).
They were also valid in 2012-2016 with the "cheap" WRCs.
So while a discussion about Rally1 vs "Rally2(+)" is interesting, the main point in this resurected thead was hybrid vs no hybrid in otherwise similar car.
On a sidenote, while Rally2 has certainly been extremely sucessfull as a class it is now down to only 2 brands developing their cars. How long will the other cars stay competetive and whether the class survives in current form more than a few more years is a big guestion.
Yes, GT3 racing is probably the most competitive 4 wheeled motorsport around; plenty of series around the globe, lots of cars, and virtually all of the top drivers driving them. Bathurst 12 hours, Nurburgring 24 hours, Spa 24 hours will see them all racing each other. We've just had a Spa 24 hour two day test, this weekend sees another NLS (VLN) round on the Nordschleife. The BoP seen in SRO GT3 events seems to be fairer than the ACO version in the WEC, but that isn't a surprise.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Yes, so we see three manufacturers in Rally 1, and only two are developing their cars in Rally 2; that's not great, and rather worrying. The sport needs to attract more in both classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Gotcha, thanks. Perhaps a split between Rally1/WRC Manufacturers and WRC2/3 may be a more popular idea than I first imagined. To that end, I don't care whether hybrid is/was the right idea and only the three manus can answer that anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Alright, then let us discuss hybrid vs no hybrid and have a look at this very recent interview with AMG’s customer racing boss Stefan Wendl about GT3 racing. The title of the article says it all: "Mercedes-AMG Looking to Introduce New GT3 Car in 2025". Nowhere in this article is any mentioning of 'hybrid' nor electric. And this article is also given a good insight about the homologation process of GT3"Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Stefan Wendl told Sportscar365 at last weekend’s Liqui-Moly Bathurst 12 Hour that the Mercedes-AMG GT3 Evo is set to continue as the brand’s flagship GT racing product until the end of 2024. He suggested that the end of the current Evo model’s homologation period after the 2024 season “could be a good chance” for Mercedes-AMG to introduce a successor.
The Mercedes-AMG GT3 made its global debut with customer teams in 2016 and was given an Evo update ahead of the 2020 season. Wendl gave a vote of confidence in how GT3 has been managed by the FIA, which is responsible for vehicle homologation, and SRO Motorsports Group which sets the Balance of Performance in several key championships and founded the worldwide formula.
“I am quite happy about how the FIA and SRO handle the evolution of GT3 cars,” said Wendl.
“Since 2015-16, since the group of cars like the Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Audi and us came, there was a growth of manufacturers in that homologation period.
https://sportscar365.com/industry/me...3-car-in-2025/