It wouldn't be that bad if Loeb didn't win 9 titles in the row. Now it's needed time that sport can become interesting to the large crowd again. Also Eurosport would be much better choice but better offer means more money, so that's it.
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It wouldn't be that bad if Loeb didn't win 9 titles in the row. Now it's needed time that sport can become interesting to the large crowd again. Also Eurosport would be much better choice but better offer means more money, so that's it.
Couldn't agree more. After Gronholm retired, Loeb basically sleepwalked his way to 5 titles in a row, with practically no competition. Apart from anything else, that is just a total bore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barreis
Well, I can't see how Formula 1, Rally Cross, Drag Racing, NASCAR, WRC or national level rallying meets the terms of modern standard ecology and fuel efficiency at the moment. It’s a hypocrite to think that we’re doing green motorsport, which will attract plenty of people.
The highest level of the sport have to be the best on every area; drivers, cars, rallies. No compromises.
And it’s not Loeb's fault if the others are so bad. It’s just a result of the existing system. The last decent resistor was Marcus Gronholm who had skills, balls and charisma. The battles between them were epic.
Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by giù tutto!
I listened to Colin Clark’s interview of Jost Capito (http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/media/podc...114--80--.html) and first I must say that Jost has to improve his math skills. 100 s difference over 300 km is not 1/10 of a second but 3/10 of a second. The shootout would be of course exiting but for me it’s still the traditional solution.
David Richard would concentrate on internet but I don’t see the difference between internet or traditional TV channels if the material is there. I can watch a program traditionally from TV or via internet when it’s broadcasted. The difference is that If I can’t watch a program when it’s live, I can watch it later via internet. Of course internet would give the opportunity to add some specials for hard core fans without steeling the time from TV channels prime time.
I thought the report in today's 28/5/14 issue of Motorsport News quoting Yves Matton about WRC was interesting. Basicallyatton aays costs in WRC are out of control, and FIA should ensure that at the next generation (2017) cars that FIA must not let what happened in S1600 and S2000 when ceiling costs went out of contol. He quoted things like special lightweight glass etc. I got the impression thst Yves wants R5 to be the wrc class. What I also found interesting was that Yves wants to halve costs of the rallies themselves. Yves suggests a Thursday morning shakedown, thursday evening ceremonial start and msybe a few stages. Long friday and saturdsy, and if there has to br stages on a sunday limit this to 40kms. Yves says this will be a big saving on hotel costs for teams and coupled with cheaper cars could make the investment required attractive for more manufactureres. I agree with him.
They can start with not bringing a whole town with them...
In the future they can also use stock fuel. If it's from single supplier there is no need to be afraid of uncertain quality. Stock fuel with bigger restrictor makes no change of car appearance.
Costs - as always is the biggest issue. Well keep to a sensible budget regarding cars....and spend less on 'other things' - but we all know that will not happen. It's a World Championship - it is going to cost. However, it has to give value for money - and a return on investment.
As for the routes - they have to be different; a WRC event has to be an 'EVENT'...it has to be special. 40km on a Sunday is almost a waste of time.
I didn't expect that hotel costs these days are the biggest problem for teams.
I am not saying that hotel cost is the biggest problem but consider its €200 per room per night, based on a team on 80 staff, say 10 on single room status, with 30 twin rooms, include the pre event test and recce, WRC rallies are 10 days long for the professionals. Do the maths.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfun
If the person responsible for all the travels only manages to get average room price of 200 Euros/night with 80 people, he or she should be fired.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJW
And as Mirek already wrote a few posts ago, they should start with bringing less stuff and staff.
A privateer entering a WRC event has something like maximum 10x10m space for service, while manufacturer teams claim a space big enough to build a factory on... Of course it's a difficult question, as teams claim they need space to invite their guests, and without those guests there wouldn't be any rally either (something many people tend to forget).
But what Mirek said is a very good point. Letting all cars drive on normal (98-100 octane) fuel would make it cheaper. Giving the cars a bigger restrictor to give the "lost power" back (or even a bit more) would be good...
Making a short calculation, for example for Sardinia:
365km SS x (let's say) 65l/100km (or can anyone correct on what a modern WRC car's fuel consumption is?)
1050km RS x (let's say) 20l/100km
Would make a fuel consumption of +- 450 liters. With current fuel price, 5,5 euro/l for WRC fuel, against something like 1,6 euro/l for commercial fuel in most countries, it would make a difference of +-1750 euros for an event like Sardinia, which is probably close to the average WRC event in terms of length. For a team of 2 cars this would save already roughly 50 000 euros/season, without even calculating shakedown and the countless testing kilometers.
Most important is that this would save a lot of money for smaller teams and local drivers, because that's what we are missing most in WRC events. Last year I was in Sweden, I think there was one (1!) Swedish driver entering, is this normal?! FIA should not only look after the big manufacturer teams, but should work on making the sport more attractive and affordable on a lower level too, by lowering entry fees in WRC events for example. If they want to, they can do this for sure.
WRC cars sure consume around 100l/100km maybe even more. Naturally aspirated S2000 take around 50-60 litres, gr.N turbo cars take 70-90 litres on stages I think.
I'm sure if a privateer offered to pay the 32,000 per event that a manufacturer pays, they could get the same amount of space in a service park!Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
Entry fees are set in a maximum by the FIA - it's up to each individual Event Organiser to set what to charge. So really, it's up to the Organisers to decide the entry fee. Perhaps there needs to be a bit of competition amongst the organisers to compete for the number of 'customers' they can get. Because that's how they should be considered by Organisers - customers.
No it is a waste of time for both teams and the fans who fork out their hard earned money to actually go watch these events! I would rather 2 days packed full of stages starting early morning to late at night, rather than a short limp finish on a sunday.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Seriously how hard can it be to sort out the WRC?
It has been some discussion about this on this forum but I don’t remember the thread.
FIA Institute to probe spinal injuries
http://www.irallylive.com/ir_news.htm?00006789&10
In this article it says that the consumption for the 2.0 litre WRC engine was on a typical stage 70 l / 100km.
http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1wv...sources/19.htm (page 31, left column)
“Armfield reports that on a typical rally stage, fuel consumption is about 0,7 litres per kilometer. There has been a slight reduction in consumption from that of the previous 2.0-litre port-injected engine, primarily due to the reduction in restrictor air restrictor area. With the 6% reduction of restrictor area, the air flow has fallen from 748 kg/h to 720 kg/h – a drop of 4% - and the fuel consumption is commensurate with that. At peak power speed, fuel consumption is 51 kg/h.”
Our driver's association has been working on this issue for several years. I hope they can get in contact with FIA institute and give them the results of investigation which was done with co-operation with medical authorities.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
Believe me you need to try hard to find €200 per night hotel. I never spent that much on hotel for the whole event.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJW
When you have a team of 80 and you book a hotel for a half a week then 50€ is mostly the maximum limit for twin room. So, max 40 rooms for the team, it is approximately 2000 per night. and 10 000-12 000 per rally. Whole season cost approximately 150 000 eur for accomodation. Take one day from eaxh rally, it is approximately 25 000 saved per season...
The point is that if you save something from everywhere, you get a bigger number by the end of year.
I think M-Sport would be the only 'Manufacturer' team in which any staff share rooms...Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
Will that kind of savings make any difference for 40 mln euro budget team? It's just a fraction of %... Anyway I think the message was that teams don't get any value for money they spend. Nothing has been done since Mr Ciesla joined WRC and there is no good news coming as well. If WRC get proper TV and internet coverage then we won't read any complains form any team.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
Would it be a big deal to have longer rallies, but maybe smaller season, 6-8 rounds? Manufacturers look for any reason not to join a series, or get out of one. I'm not certain of the exact changes being proposed for the WRC, but I get an impression it breaks away from "proper" rallying. If this is the case, then it'll just lead to a further deterioration of the series.
From what I see here with V8supercars. Whenever a series fiddles around with it's sporting regs, in an attempt to generate more interest from tv, it just leads to less interest from tv down the track. Sometimes, you just have to accept where you're at. Off-road motorsport is a smaller industry than circuit racing. While the WRC is of equal value to F1 (if not, more) as a driving competition. It doesn't have the natural advantages F1 has commercially. You can't make a plant grow from a rock.
I like that idea, but maybe 8-10 rallies. We could have events going all over northern Italy, all over North Wales, northern England & into central Scotland, all over Sweden & Norway etc etc.
Unfortunately I fear it's more likely the manufacturers will want to hit more markets, so long as they don't go back up to 14+ events like we had about 10 years ago. The manufacturers would have more sway in this matter too
Some good points above;
When you keep messing around with your format; it just suggests you have no confidence in your product and/ or you don't know what you're doing. Rallying is NOT F1 or RallyX, so stop trying to make it like them. It's meant to be a test of speed and endurance of man and machine.
I think going for 8-10 events would be better for the WRC; can it really support 14-16 events? Not in my opinion. Too many involved think the sport is bigger than it actually is.
I did the maths and 10 people had no room to sleep in :-(Quote:
Originally Posted by MJW
Do I get a prize for the 1st correct answer?
Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I remember about 8-10 years ago Subaru's budget was about 80 mln euros. The biggest budget now is about half of it. Are all those talks about promoter problems or they just look for excuses as you noticed?Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman racer
This is true. Manufacturers will always be unhappy with the length of the rallies. They only want to have the headlines "Driver X with our car did a great result" after spending as less as possible. They approve spending only when it gives them advantage for a certain victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman racer
That's why the rally sport must be centered around the privateers, as it was in the beginning - rich people enjoying their expensive hobby. But with this greedy corrupt french governing body this will realistically not happen soon.
With respect, who wants to see an FIA World championship that is mainly about 'gentleman drivers'? We want to see the best drivers competing against each other and preferably with a high level of competition rather than someone walking their way to the title. Not some drinks magnate who's bought himself an expensive rally car.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSon
WRC needs manufacturers otherwise where are the cars going to come from? The problem at the moment is we don't have everyone involved pulling in the same direction. Namely Jost Capito's insane idea to change the basic concept of what rallying should be and a promotor that seems to have had zero tangible influence on the championship in just over a year.
@Jack, "privateer drivers" aren't the same as what you refer to "gentleman drivers". But I do understand that, due to the poor condition of the current WRC, you think it's one thing. Current WRC is too expensive for privateers. A privateer can be a promising young driver too, who is driving with help of a federation (quite rare) or sponsors and/or private fundings. Don't forget that EVERY current WRC works-driver used to be a privateer...
The sport MUST be accessible for everyone, in my opinion. It must be a step-up to the top level of rallying. All WRC championships (WRC, WRC2, WRC3, JWRC, DMack Trophy and everything around it) don't offer the needed return for the investment they require. Comparing to ERC (IRC in the past) they have a very bad score. Plenty of extremely talented people who are stuck on a national level, as they can't take the "big" step up, to international rallying. They can't persuade their sponsors to invest in something that costs much more and gives no return at all.
But ok, continue complaining there's nobody to beat Ogier, and wonder why... ;)
I think you're flattering the ERC a bit there. It's not exactly thriving and flush with a big field of regular drivers. How many events have been cancelled in the IRC / ERC in recent years?Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
Whereas if you look at the WRC championships:
- WRC 2: record numbers at events
- Dmack: oversubscribed
- JWRC - big field (so far...)
What are all these people doing if they're not getting their return on investment? What are they doing in the WRC if there is a viable alternative in the ERC? The fact is, in many cases the ERC is not a viable alternative. It doesn't have the footprint that the WRC has. It's shown on Eurosport at 1am in the morning and occasionally they do Live. At least the new WRC promoter has created Live (up to 3 hours per event) from every single event so far this year (where it can be seen is a separate matter...).
Sometimes people can be a bit too negative about the WRC. It's important that people don't let perception be seen as reality....
About cancellation of ERC events you are right, unlike the WRC events which remain the same year after year, without much of a change, ERC has many unproven events next to some "classic" rallies (Ypres, Barum, Corsica, Valais). The main problem of ERC at this particular moment is that the S2000 cars are outdated and the R5 cars are not quite there yet. I expect national importers to support some projects again next year, as we have seen during the great "IRC" years.
About WRC2 you are right, this year's championship is quite good (last year was quite a disaster in my opinion), anyway I don't like the system of choosing half of the events and being able to avoid competing directly against your biggest opponents, it could make it a meaningless title in my opinion, if some slower driver wins because he is doing other events than the faster guys...
Concerning return things are different from country to country (like in one country Dakar is a big thing while in another country it's almost invisible in media), but I dare to say that newspapers here have as much news of an ERC event as of a WRC event. When Neuville was in ERC we were seeing as much, if not more news about him than we see now, while he is in WRC... While I see something being written about Junior ERC or the previous 2WD Cup or Production cup, things such as WRC2, WRC3, JWRC and Dmack Trophy seem to be completely ignored in media (a bit like F1 is completely seperated from all side-events and nothing is written about those either). Visibility of WRC on TV is 0, nothing, you can only see it on a paychannel here. And again the lower categories are completely ignored on TV... Live-tv of WRC is non-existant for me. I'm not going to spend my time on a website clicking away banners while a low-quality stream is playing and buffering every 2 minutes, I'm probably crazy but not that crazy... With ERC/IRC there's Eurosport to watch, and during the "good years" with Loix and/or Neuville competing, we could see it on national tv as well. Also important is that the footage of ERC is much more exciting to watch than what the promotors of WRC produce. Although the quality of their images is a bit better and looks more professional, it's just boring to watch.
Don't understand me wrong. I like rallying, visit an average of 25 events/year, on regional, national and international level. Throughout the years I visited more than half of the different WRC events on the calendar. And I hope the best for the future of WRC, as the WRC contains the nicest events. But if you are being honest, you can't deny that the promotor of WRC is failing at their work, on many different aspects. There are so many examples of how things can be done better... And until those things are solved, I'm sure that ERC provides a better return for private competitors, on a smaller area but with a bigger impact.
This^^^.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
Want more markets? That's more expense. Less markets? Less expense. But include more criticism. It's a self-defeating circle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack4688`
I wonder if regardless of the number of total rounds, x number/best of rounds count toward the title would be considered?Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
That's a point I have about Touring Cars. Then include manufacturers as an addition, who can come and go as they please. What is the problem, regarding the FIA?Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSon
Maybe 40 mil still could be too much for some. The value of money, and how it circles through an economy, is quite peculiar nowadays. The trend is to ask/expect more and more value for money. If it was 30mil, then that'll be too much. 20 mil and so on. At what point do you stop compromising you competition? Will it be a one day rally someday? I mean, 3 day rallies is already a compromise to a genuine, full blown WRC event.Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc1600
Good to see Graig Breen will do two more WRC outings with a Fiesta, Finland and Germany
http://www.craigbreen.com/news.php?&id=520
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes...ein/index.html
looks like it will happen next year.....:(
terrible, terrible idea... ruins the sport in an arbitrary way. you can't manufacture drama in motorsport, reality TV style, you can only assure an even level of competition and the drama will come. instead of working on the competition, they make it so the guy in 3rd can't attack the guy in 2nd at the end of 3-4 days of rallying, even if they're .5sec apart. hmm yes this will add drama.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli