Tuthill's R-GT Porsche (the one the Delecour raced last year), is for sale:
http://www.tuthillporsche.com/produc...-gt-rally-car/
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Tuthill's R-GT Porsche (the one the Delecour raced last year), is for sale:
http://www.tuthillporsche.com/produc...-gt-rally-car/
Is somebody willing to pay so much for a car which is near useless on international scene?
Maybe they count on some rich guy that want to win some trophy or say his friends he won something in motorsport hiding the fact he was against only one or two opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Look at that description: "rally Corsica winner". Lol!
This one has some history to follow up.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault...ed-pictures#13
Would make a nice RGT car.
For a gentlemen driver it`s not such a bad idea (if you drive for your own pleasure), it`s an awesome car, just not fast enough for top spots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M5
Could be a perfect RGT Cup Car, if Alpine wanted to!
Will have a hard time with the Porsches I guess!
If the car will be looked affter in a proper way, the price will definetly rocket in the sky in next years (as with all 911's with racing heritage).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
After years dominating the Spanish tarmac rally championship (CERA), this year 911's are going to have a 41,2mm restrictor.
According to top Porsche drivers, these was a drastic move from local ASN (RFEA), because the cars will lose more than 100hp, becoming 2 to 3 seconds/km slower. Some of them are selling their cars, others will stop competing at CERA.
http://www.diariomotor.com/competici...n-el-nacional/
Hmm, why??? Ridiculous....great way to run the sport - get rid of crowd pleasing cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Well, again one STUPID decision.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
finally comon sense.
And good for Skoda & PSA..Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
for everybody who has spent 250.000 euros to compete with an r5 car and what to compete with SAME rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Triyudho Wardono
For sale Porsche 997 GT3 Rally(Ex.Vallejo/Xevi Pons) Champion of Catalonia in tarmac championship 2014 and 2015. Engine 3.6 “NEW” 420hp,
http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/ads/...ly-new-engine/
Surely someone who competes with an r5 car is competing against other r5 cars? Doesn't matter what a different class does.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
If you want the same rules you would have to let RGT have 4wd like r5 as well ;)
nobody denied to porsche to build a 4wd car with 1,6litres engine with restrictor.Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
+1, I think it's a good thing to limit the GT cars a bit, in favor of a healthy competition. For GT cars I think it's more important to focus on keeping the costs down rather than pushing the performance. Top GT cars can battle with proper rallycars only in optimal conditions anyway, and those are rare to find in most countries... We have great competitions with R5 cars at the moment (entry lists in many different countries prove it), it would be a shame to ruin it by making GT cars quicker. It would be nicer to see them as the cheaper alternative (in terms of running cost), especially for drivers who usually cannot fight for the win with these cars anyway.
And nobody denied others the chance to build an RGT car, and nobody denied R5 drivers who are worried an RGT might occasionally be faster the chance to drive RGT instead. Thats kindof the point in having different classes ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
lol
For me is simple, actual GT do gravel events? no, not a rally car... next.
only in Finland ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
Was nice to see a few of these cars out on international events for a couple of years. Fun while it lasted.
Sir, the Spanish GT cars are very far from R-GT regulations. They are national curiosity which works in specific local conditions and as such they unfortunately helped to isolate Spanish rally scene from the international one. In my opinion it's not that good idea to differ too much from international rules because it makes it very difficult for locals to get to the international level.Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
Please don't confuse things. Porsche never built R-GT car. All the cars which were built are private initiatives and all of them are slower than R5 cars. No manufacturer including Porsche is interested in R-GT class simply because those cars are made not to win. It's very misleading to confuse Spanish cars with R-GT ones. Those are different kind.
Fair enough, I didn't know the Spanish cars were so different.
I think the general point is valid though, why restrict them so much instead of just letting them run in their own class? Would you restrict a historic class car to make sure it doesn't have more power than a new R5?
It's not so easy question if such class can win overall. In my opinion the overall top classes shall follow FIA sporting code but of course I'm not national ASN of every country. It's just my personal opinion.
let me try to explain you.Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
We have 5-8-10 drivers that they have spent 200-300k euro to compete at Spanish-Belgium -Italian championship.
Somebody comes with a gt car with 420 bhp and 300mm width tyre and taking advantage (from the 100-120 bhp plus at same weight),at straights(at corners he is slower) and become champion.
All the other drivers while they are much better/faster,cant become champions,due to power/tyres advantage.They will win a class,not a championship.So there is no need to spent 200-300k for a win class,when somebody with less than half money can become champion from these advantages.
Rallyes always are run under rules.For decades and at ALL classes and championships.And rgt cars had big advantage from rules at power and tyres width.
Thats not rallying.
Its the same as i would like to win the champions league and participate with a team with 15 players against 11 players for all the other teams.
Maybe you havent got any problem to watch football with 15 players against 11,but thats not football.
If Vallejo or somebody else wants to win the local championship,there is only one way.To buy/rent a r5 car and compete against the other drivers.With same power.and same tyres.
I understand what you're saying, but if they can go faster and win for half the cost then why not do it? If the other drivers are better and want to win that championship they could buy a GT car too instead of an R5.
I don't see why the most expensive car has to win, unless the goal is to make drivers spend more money on those cars (which may be what the R5 manufacturers want, but is it best for the sport?).
I know that young drivers moving up the ranks need experience in the right sort of car if they want to reach WRC and they also want to win championships, but similar choices apply at other levels too - if a young talented driver spends a season in an R2 car to refine his technique while other drivers with less long-term goals jump into turbo 4wd cars sooner, the guy in the R2 wouldn't expect the faster cars to be restricted to R2 pace so that he can win the championship!
Ideally for spectator interest you would have a variety of different cars with different advantages, but equal chance of winning overall. And that may be what they're trying to achieve with the restrictions on the GT cars, but I get the impression its gone too far and now the GT cars have no chance of winning?
Another way of managing it is how NZRC used to run, where faster cars (Grp-A etc) could enter and win events but only Grp-N was eligible for championship points.
Are you also against Nikara and the others guys in Finland using GrN+ Evos and Imprezas? They’re also capable to beat R5’s with old cars that should cost under 100.000€!Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Btw, if a guy in an R5 can be pissed to see a half priced 911 or Impreza beating him, what about RRC’s drivers? They also got their half a million cars severely limited to level S2000’s and R5’s power, but they were delighted to run their downgraded WRC’s (till FIA managed to throw them out of the road with the 28mm restrictor!).
I agree with the previous post: Rally needs diversity and there’s no problem to put at the same level different kinds of cars and get drivers with smaller budgets fighting alongside top drivers and teams for regional or national championships.
It’s true that unlimited 911’s were a bit too strong for R5’s (btw, 911’s are cheap to buy and run, because most of them are old racing cars used in former Porsche GT3 Cup’s around the world) but the same way FIA managed to balanced RRC’s with R5’s during last seasons, they could also managed to get a reasonable compromise with GT’s (and even with N4/R4, like now the Fins are doing).
Somehow, the 39mm restrictor was a sign that FIA was simply allowing RGT without giving them a proper chance to be competitive, and it’s a shame to see Spain ASN following FIA path. For sure some kind of limitation was needed when the 3.8 911 was introduced, but with R5 getting each day more competitive it’s a bit stupid to restrain them now so severely.
It's not a shame that that Spanish ASN starts to follow FIA way. They do what is logical. The isolation of their home series from international competition is not good for them and having no successor to Sainz or even Sordo for a decade is one of the signs. You can blame FIA for making the GT rules in such a way that they are doomed to be nothing more than a curiosity on stages but not local ASNs for synchronizing with FIA.
I would like to have FIA rules also in Finland!
Timothy van Parijs and Jochem Claerhout have confirmation that they can start with their Porsches in their national configuration, so not RGT in Ypres ERC field.
Maybe Pech, who is promising his start on Ypres again (like many times during last years)...Quote:
Originally Posted by MartijnS
so you want to have champion this who will be most fast at straights. Why you dont watch dragsters?Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
.Porsches are old circuits cars build from Porsche motorsport that cost when new 500k euro. Dont compare with new r5 cars prices.Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
r2 r3 r5 wrc whatever class has restrictions,at power/tyres everywhere.Why Porsche must not have? Explain it to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
some spectators would like to see f1 cars at asphalt rallies,some others grB cars(because they sound awesome) and somebody else why not evos with 700 bhp(cheaper all of them)Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
equal chances of winning with 120 bhp more? what are you talking mate? You dont ask for equal,you ask for advantages.
thats why New Zealand has Hayden Paddon as wrc regular.Because he was competing at a class with RESTRICTIONS and was faster among other guys wihtout advantages.Not because he drove gr A evos and become champion among others with grN evos.Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
its not the same.Evos driven from Nikara wasnt faster from r5 cars.Evos were faster because of driving.He hadnt got 100 bhp plus from r5 cars,and not wider tyres.Won them by driving and not being faster at straights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
thay dont pissed about half price,they pissed about the advantages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
thats why they restricted rrc cars.And that was right,because they had advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
what do you say here? they need 120 bhp more to win,and now they cant ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
if we allow to porsches the old restrictions,why to dont allow 40mm restrictors to all grN evo and scubi to can compete against r5 cars? wouldnt be much better from porsches ? they cost 50-60k euro now,so half cost from porsches.
Ok dimviii,
apparantly you don't like Porsches, no problem with that. I like them and so the R5, RRC, R4, WRC, R3......
First do not spread infos about the purchase price of a new circuit 911 GT3 cup car at ''500k€''. If you order it via Weissach Motorsport department, price is lower than 200k €. 100 % sure!
Secondly what bothers me is your constantly repetition of advantages fact(s) : power and the tyre wide.
Why the hell you also do not mention the DISADVANTAGE(S) of 911 GT3 Cup car which is competing on rally :
- weight balance of the car (engine is behind the rear axle-how the car handles in wet you can only imagine in the worst nightmare)
- suspension travel (lot shorter compare to R5 - how the car handles on a bumpy surface, you can only imagine in ....blabla)
- very very unpredictable handling, not to say sneaky one....until the car is close to the limit, it is fun and fast, but when you cross this line, the car ''bites back'' as no other car can do. Remember: all the weight is behind and when this weight gets inertia, nothing can make it stop...except tree(s), fence, bush, ditch....so, a lot of balls and the driving expirience is welcome.
- the basic layout of 911 is older than 50 years, was never intended for rally. Compare it to 100% purpose computer designed vehicle is a sad thing....
And last but not the least : even that the configuration of the stages in Spain is in favour to GT cars (and the weather too/almost no chance of rain), the car still needs a capable driver. The car can not be first without the driver & codriver. So, all credit to GT drivers, they are real heroes (and crazy guys also) for me. If you do not agree with me, your problem...
If Porsche cars are now ''punished'' on the international level because the factory shows no interest in rally sport, it is Ok for me. The planet goes still around....but to slow down them on national level, especially when the number was increasing from year to year, the spectators loved them, well this is strange to me. The statement from Mirek (national championship was isolated) is funny...so is ours, so is Italian, German....it is national level and not international level.
I must say I didnt liked spanish Porsche too. Their cars were more improved than usual GT3 Cup cars, more different than other in national championships. Homologation was always changing because of drivers wanted, added traction control etc... So I must say I didnt like this "bastard" cars as it was almost impossible to fight against them with any other normal car, but I also dont like in all actual FIA-RGT concept.
I must say that I also dont like national homologations (like polish Proto, brittish R5+, finnish N+ etc). The best should be to have similar cars in each championship. It should be easier for everybody. BUT, in this case I see the biggest problem on side of FIA. Actual system of homologations is way too old and need completely to change (or better to say, needed the change few years ago)...
What is funny about the fact that with national car You can't compete on international level? There's nothing funny about it. It's quite sad when You can't compare Yourself with the international drivers even on Your home soil (let's say on Canarias).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ucci
Of course there are people who don't care and that all right. Still rallying is a sport and the true sportsmen have always ambitions to compete internationally. The work of ASN among other things is to help local talents to get on the international level and to represent the country. When the ASN sets rules which force drivers not to use internationally recognized cars it closes a lot of door to their own talents. You can't just go and buy R5 to drive something abroad. First it's crazy expensive and second it's completely different car for which You need different driving techniques which You need to learn first.
And there is also third and very important point. A large percentage of R5 teams is supported by official importers. Where is the logic in creating a prominent class for a carmaker which isn't interested in rallying at all? Rallying is a marketing tool in first place. In case of Spanish championship it's very hard to speak about some marketing usefulness for usual rally brands. And here we go again. Why shall they be interested in the country and in its drivers when they get nothing back?
Simply there isn't much logic in the decision to run non-FIA top class and it doesn't matter which class it is. It's the same here when our ASN allowed old WRC cars. It didn't bring anything positive at all. What they managed is only to collect several gentleman drivers from lower tier series and created more obstacles for those who have international ambitions (some of those simply left the national championship at all).
no you misanderstood me.I like them,but i like them to compete for that they build them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ucci
if you build a new gt3 for rallies will not be cheaper than a brand new r5 car.Ok maybe i exaggerate a bit,but its not a bargain.Are same money.So no excuses about being cheaper.Cheaper are when used and some 3-4 years old compared to new r5 cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ucci
yes all these you wrote you are very right except the ''balls''.Thats why they need more horsepower to be capable of wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ucci
Balls you need to be faster from other r5 drivers with r5 car.Not with 120 bhp plus at dry abrasive roads that suits your car.
about blabla what do you mean that i havent drive 911s? For your information i ve drive them at roads and circuits.Even at Vizzola when Pirelli i was working for them, testing slicks and road semis.
something you havent understant about the word ''hero''Quote:
Originally Posted by Ucci
suddenly to many ''heroes'' at Spain only....lol
nobody cares about them.Only the ''heroes'' that now they have to compete against r5 cars without advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ucci
Dimviii, I don't know how fast you drove them if you haven't noticed the disatvanteges of 911's.....you are just mentioning power advantage....as that the HP number is the most significant on rally stage(s)....it is just a part of the whole picture.....
Honestly, I don’t think that having national regs different from FIA can be a real handicap for those (few) drivers wanting to rally abroad in a regular basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
For the young guys starting their international careers, probably the best option it’s to leave, as soon as possible, into an international 2wd series. To them, the worst issue about getting into foreign rallys (at least our national guys, and I imagine that in other countries it's the same) it’s the lack of recce control they’re used to. Passing dozens of times into the stages before rally (sometimes in their rally car) will have a negative influence when competing under the strict reconnaissance rules of ERC or WRC rallys.
For the more experience drivers (like national titles contenders) wanting to get into a top international 4wd series, the best option for them it's probably to rent a rally car from an international team, with full service comprised. It’s more easy and cheap than carrying their own material all around.
Above all, ASN’s should be looking to get as much competitors as they can, for their national series. R5’s are great rally cars, very well developed and built, but they are (like most of all the others R cars) a kind of monopoly, being supplied by only 4 or 5 official tuners. This way prices will tend to be very high (as we all know), so ASN’s must look around to find other compatibles ways for less wealthy crews get their share of competitive rallying as well. Establishing a performance balance for different types of cars can be hard, but it’s achievable if there’s a will to do it.
Try to think about what you're saying. If you have several GT cars competing to the same rules the driver that wins rallies will be the best at going around corners, they will all be the same on the straights. If they're more difficult to drive than R5 then they will need a better driver to get the most from the car too.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
As others have said an R5 car has a lot of advantages over a GT for rallying (suspension travel, 4wd etc), so if you want them to compete with each other you have to let the GT keep some advantage in other areas like power. Maybe the Spanish Porsches had too much advantage previously, its a challenge for rule-makers to get the balance right.