that explains a lot...Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
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that explains a lot...Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Actually that's NOT correct...If you were actually knowledgable about rally instead of being a frustrated angy armchair wannabe---but never will be anything----you would know in many places it is a long long long term RULE requiring a car arriving on the scene of a stopped car on a SS to stop if there is no OK sign clearly displayed...
NOT saying that crews follow the other rule which REQUIRES a car that is stopped and doesn't need medical assistance to display the OK sign---and triangles----- but its pretty clear, you don't see an OK sign you stop and assess the need for--or NOT---medical assistance...
IF you knew anything---again you do NOT---you know that there are often miles of SS where there are very very few marshals, and evn less in direct radio communication with Rally HQ..
Simple logic and experience of doing 1 rally would bring the realisation that the FIRST line of defense is the immediately following car/crew....not some marshal somewhere with no means to communicate with the FOLLOWING car...
But you're NOT a rally guy, you've NOT done any rallys, you are merely a frustrated lab-rat in a basement and full of well justified self hate......
Have you considered maybe gracing someplace where just arguing and insulting the entire world is the whole point of the forum?
Shirley you would be happier where reality isn't a factor, just whatever you want to make up and scream about how stupid everybody is till your hearts content..:uhoh:
Try it.....
I don't know if it is a written rule, I don't think so actually, but I could be wrong. In any case I find weird that Evans had to stop with hundreds of people and several marshalls there to help.
And your point is ?Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
Extracted from the 2015 FIA World Rally Championship Sporting Regulations
40. COMPETITOR SAFETY
40.1 EQUIPMENT OF THE CREWS
Whenever a car is in motion on a special stage, the crew must wear homologated crash helmets, all required safety clothing and equipment in compliance with Appendix L Chapter III - Drivers’ Equipment as intended by the equipment manufacturer and have their safety belts fastened. Any infringement will be penalised by the clerk of the course who may also refer the matter to the Stewards.
40.2 SOS/OK SIGNS
40.2.1 Each competing car shall carry a red “SOS” sign and on the reverse a green “OK” sign measuring at least 42 cm x 29.7 cm (A3).
40.2.2 In the case of an accident where urgent medical attention is required, when possible the red “SOS” sign should be immediately displayed to the following cars and to any helicopter attempting to assist.
40.2.3 Any crew which has the red “SOS” sign displayed to them, or which sees a car which has suffered a major accident where both crew members are seen inside the car but are not displaying the red “SOS” sign, shall immediately and without exception stop to render assistance. All following cars shall also stop. The second car at the scene shall proceed to inform the next radio point. Subsequent cars shall leave a clear route for emergency vehicles.
40.2.4 In the case of an accident where immediate medical intervention is not required, the “OK” sign must be clearly shown by a crew member to the following vehicles and to any helicopter attempting to assist.
40.2.5 If the crew leaves the vehicle, the “OK” sign must be displayed so that it is clearly visible to other competitors.
40.2.6 Any crew which is able but fails to comply with the above rules will be reported to the clerk of the course.
40.2.7 The road book shall contain a page giving the accident procedure.
40.2.8 Any crew retiring from a rally must report such final retirement to the organisers as soon as possible, save in a case of force majeure. Any crew failing to comply will be subject to a penalty at the Stewards’ discretion.
40.3 ACCIDENT REPORTING
If a crew is involved in an accident in which a member of the public sustains physical injury, the procedure as laid down in Art. 40.2.3 must be followed.
40.4 RED TRIANGLE
40.4.1 Each competing car must carry a red reflective triangle which, in the event of the car stopping in a special stage, must be placed in a conspicuous position by a member of the crew at least 50 metres before the car’s position, in order to warn following drivers. Any crew failing to comply may be subject to a penalty at the discretion of the Stewards.
40.4.2 This triangle must be placed even if the stopped car is off the road.
40.5 YELLOW FLAGS
40.5.1 Electronic yellow flags
a) Yellow flag lights will be used in all competing cars. When the electronic Yellow Flag is activated from rally control, the Yellow Flag LED light situated on the FIA Emergency Console will flash and a continuous alarm will ring in the cockpit. Crews must confirm acknowledgement of the electronic Yellow Flag by pressing the OK button as soon as they see it and must immediately reduce speed.
b) The FIA-approved Yellow Flag LED system to be used will be provided by SIT only.
c) The Yellow Flag LED must be visible by both crew members.
40.5.2 Yellow flags at radio points
The yellow flag will be displayed to crews only on the instruction of the clerk of the course. The flags may only be displayed at radio points marked in the road book and by a marshal wearing a distinctive jacket of the colour stipulated in Appendix H and on which is marked the radio point symbol. Flags will be displayed
40.5.3 Meanings of a yellow flag
On passing a displayed yellow flag and/or acknowledging an electronic yellow flag, whichever happens first, the driver must immediately reduce speed, maintain this reduced speed until the end of the special stage, and follow the instructions of any marshals or intervention car drivers. Failure to comply with this rule will entail a penalty at the discretion of the Stewards.
40.5.4 A crew which has been shown the yellow flag will be given a notional time for the stage, as in Art. 39.
40.5.5 If different signalling systems (e.g. flashing lights) are used in super special stages, full details must be included in the supplementary regulations.
40.5.6 If a stage is interrupted or stopped and the crews are required to pass through the special stage, a yellow flag must be displayed at the start to inform the drivers how they must proceed.
40.5.7 Yellow flag points during reconnaissance
During reconnaissance, a sign bearing the radio post symbol must be displayed at the location of each radio point. This sign may be smaller than that used in the rally but must be clearly visible to crews performing reconnaissance in order that the locations may be noted.
My point is that there are not too many people and not too many spectators around as well As far as I have seen from the videos). Argentina in the other had, has high population denisty and there are so many spectators and officials that nearly every bush has some people behind it. And maybe there was OK sign at the back of Paddon car? Paddon was outside the car already and it was probably visible..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk2 RS2000
maybe i missed it but does it say what must happen if the crew of the incoming car doesn't see any SOS or OK sign ? because that is what happened here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk2 RS2000
40.2.3 Any crew which has the red “SOS” sign displayed to them, or which sees a car which has suffered a major accident where both crew members are seen inside the car but are not displaying the red “SOS” sign, shall immediately and without exception stop to render assistance.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
But I believe this wasn´t the case for Tanak (or Evans) coming to the sight. So maybe it wasn´t anything wrong just passing by?Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
I've heard one of the injured spectators put his hand in the air and showed Tanak OK signs with his hand...Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
Would you put OK sign on the car that crashed into spectators?
Paddon was hidden in the crowd and car was on its side so you couldn't tell if somebody was inside.
and ignores all the in-car warning systems, well we will have to wait and see what has been verified and reported to the FIA for further action.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
I do not have a schedule of FIA standard penalties at hand. However FYI in New Zealand where all our rallies run very close to WRC regulations (but with a few changes because we are such a remote place) the penalty is:
A3R.17
Failure to stop for displayed
Red SOS.
$1000.00
1. Exclusion from Meeting or
Event.
2. Endorsement of
competition licence for
minimum of 12 months.
New Zealand does use the excellent Australian made Rallysafe vehicle tracking system www.rallysafe.com.au which gives instant information back to Rally HQ and from HQ back to the competing cars. It tracks vehicles, records times stages, measures "G" force in accidents, enables competitors to request fire or medical assistance. In all a magic system that for a minimal cost could be in use for all rallies world wide.
so what the regulation is if there is no sign at all ? maybe they inform them about these things before the event... In any case Tanak did the right thing. The place was full of marshals and spectators and nobody made a sign to him to slow down or stop...
again it says failed to stop at S.O.SQuote:
Originally Posted by Mk2 RS2000
what about if nothing is dispalyed ???
me too. It was impossible to see if someone was in the car and by the way for sure Evans wasn't wrong in an ethical point of view either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
judging from wild lines and the fact he hasn't lifted it was Tanak
yeap, it was Tanak
if you saw the back of the drowning Fiesta but it was impossible to see if someone was in the car would you drive past without stopping?
I saw at least one person slowing him downQuote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
He was already in the air when that guy told him to slow. People before that corner should did it.Quote:
Originally Posted by moto99
i saw him too but he was around 10 meters from the crash... tanak is a human being not a cat and no fighter pilot to slow down mid air.Quote:
Originally Posted by moto99
Again from the MotorSport NZ schedule of standard penaltiesQuote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
A3R.16
Failure to display a warning
triangle.
$500.00
Endorsement of Competition
Licence for a minimum of 1
month, and maximum of 12
months.
Stewards have the authority to add additional penalties.
One of the beauties of the in-car system is that you get a pre-warning aof a stopped vehicle. For instance with Rallysafe we get a 250 - 300 metres warning prior to an accident scene or a vehicle stoppage as the system also transmits between competing vehicles so it is a bit like the yellow flag in the motor race scene where to do get a warning of a situation before you become part of it.
When it comes to a hearing with the Clerk of the Course or the Stewards it is pretty hard to argue that you did not know about the incident
The in-car system does not remove the requirement to erect a safety triangle approx. 50 metres from the scene but sometimes people are still extracting themselves when the next car arrives.
again no answer to the question... the car infront could be halted because a small wire fell off or because the car exploded in a million pieces or it stopped 200 meters in a field or sunk down the ocean and nowhere to be seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk2 RS2000
Do the drivers following need to slow down/stop once they get the incar signal ?
"the car infront could be halted because a small wire fell off or because the car exploded in a million pieces or it stopped 200 meters in a field or sunk down the ocean and nowhere to be seen."
Correct
"Do the drivers following need to slow down/stop once they get the incar signal ?"
Do you need to slow down/stop once you get a yellow traffic light at an intersection? I would like to know as we are coming your way shortly and wouldn't like to be involved in a traffic accident.
Look we are getting away from the guts of this thread which is about Rally Argentina
Rally Argentina is over... Meeke won.
the question is simple...
Is there an official regulation that states what a driver must do if he doesn't see any sos/ok/triangle and gets an incar signal that the car in front is not moving ??
I am aware that if a driver gets a sign he must act accordingly, but so far people are accusing Tanak that he did not slow down/stop while there was no indication for him to do so (apart from a guy standing 10 meters away from the accident)
As posted earlier:Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
"and ignores all the in-car warning systems, well we will have to wait and see what has been verified and reported to the FIA for further action."
The FIA does not list a schedule of standard penalties on their website that I am able to find but I am confident that the Stewards handbook has them listed
Again, using the system that I am familiar with the yellow light is a warning that there is hazard ahead and to be prepared to stop, the safety triangle identifies the spot. The SOS or OK signs mean exactly that. If the Yellow hazard light is illuminated along with a green OK light then the road is clear and no assistance is required. If the red light is activated stop.
FYI, the Rallysafe system has identified cars in the water here in NZ. If it had been in use in Mexico at Rally HQ it would have shown the"g" forces that went into Tanak's car, the rollover and it's path off the road along with its last known GPS location. The tracks are on Google earth, HQ just zooms into where that reading is. . The cars following Tanak would have had the yellow hazard warning but no green ok. I really cannot understand why every event organiser in the world is not using it.
so no official rule, and it up to the event organiser to give direction of what must happen in case no sign is at the location of the incident... Court dismissed... Tanak not guilty...
go and enjoy the rest of your lives people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Great, no brilliant conclusion...Quote:
40.2.4 In the case of an accident where immediate medical intervention is not required, the “OK” sign must be clearly shown by a crew member to the following vehicles and to any helicopter attempting to assist.
40.2.5 If the crew leaves the vehicle, the “OK” sign must be displayed so that it is clearly visible to other competitors.
40.2.6 Any crew which is able but fails to comply with the above rules will be reported to the clerk of the course.
been sniffing too many test tubes?
John, it is late on a Friday night (his time) and he is in a university city. He should be out getting drunk and/or laid but instead he is tied up in his little room with only his computer and us guys as his only real friends in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
pretty shallow point of view of what fun is...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk2 RS2000
Because of something that you fail to do I will, according to the Oxford English Dictionary have the last word on our little debate. You may have to look it up as it is not in common usage today however the meaning remains unchanged. The word is zyxt.
Well good point...but think..You seen a photo of him? Very angry looking guy, scrawny...glaring...in a obviously not in a good way...type way..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk2 RS2000
So even if he was out and about quaffing a few frostie ones, women, even impaired ones would avoid him like the plague..
That is of course assuming he "likes' women...
He is Greek after all
You know what they say about Greek!
Goes without saying! That's why nobody ever says it :disturb:
So say no more!
For the very last time, all of you please quit personal comments, or you will be shown the door. No place in here for such childish and offensive comments !!!
I'm watching this thread now too. We don't want to ban members I would much rather we acted like grown ups in the first place. Not too much to ask?
But guys, this time I think NOT has a point.
I'm not bothered who has what point. I just need things to stop :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Oh, I didn´t update last quotes. My answer is after MK2 RS2000 quote to John. But still it is relevant. Please Mark, don´t ban anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
personal comments do not bother me much i must say...never did, so no need to take action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Then explain to your friend Pino that he must learn some discrimination in his threats.
This foorums rather unique take on what kind of insults are allowed---defining "personal' as who ever might have happened to wander in and manage to complete the registrartion process...
THEY are personal so we can't even RIDICULE them without Pino rushing in to threaten bans--
- But one person in a overwhelming majority of all his posts is continually, constantly, repetitively and boringly insults intentional virtually EVERY driver, every official, everybody up to and including entire countries.. see his post from a few days ago:
Quote:
30th April 2015, 00:28 #663
N.O.T
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Low life argentinians... no surprise there.
The North Will Rise Again
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Bolded so your man Pino can't miss it.
I'm just going to guess but I think his daily, endless insulting of EVERYBODY in the whole world, and as above whole countries, is an awful lot if PERSONS.......so an awful lot of PERSONAL INSULTS...a significant percentage of all he posts
Since you and Pino choose to do nothing to moderate the endless daily pointless insulting pouring forth from NOT,
Participation in discussion is negatively affected, and people eventually tire....
It IS ridiculous---so in a ridiculous situation , people try something to maintain some minimal level of discussion---in this case ridicule---which IS a different thing than NOTS endless insulting to everybody---and by my reading to those who read it.
Do what you want, but Mark, explain to Pino the idea that insults to the degree that it is done NOT about EVERYBODY, eventually insults members here. And that ridicule in response is a different thing..
I care not for whom is a responsible for the state between you two. I only care that it is to cease and I'm rather I incredulous that my message seems to lack clarity. Now; desist.
I do not wish to hear any more about this. Thusly it's my instruction that any further discourse on this matter should be removed.
Now let's get back to the rally.
But what if - not in this thread, but in the bar-thread - and maybe others, when it corresponds to the topic, letting NOT make his "insulting" comments, and doing him a big favour? Maybe this forum is the only way he can let out his primal screams?
So why not let him do that? If I get angry with him I try to answer as good as I can, maybe trying to help him on his way back to selfconfidence. Or just maybe argue.
He has his own way making his voice heard.