Sorry,doublepost.
Printable View
Sorry,doublepost.
@Andyrac
Yes it is possible to be competitive for one year without spending a o lot of money,either because you have already spent huge amount of money the years before and the car is already in high level(like citroen the year 2013)or because your design team interpreted the regulations in the optimum way like(like Brawn did with his f1 team).So it is easy to understand that without money you cant go forward for long in motorsport in our days.Maybe tommi thinks that the ralliart days are possible to come again when a team with less budget was beating teams with bigger budgets.these things stopped the year 2001 ( evo 6.5).I try hard to understand how the people of that project think.
It's just that to be able to win with Ogier/VW combo they need to have a better car than Polo and only then a top-class driver will have a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
Yeap agreed! Trouble is Ogier miles ahead of the rest in consistency and speed on all surfaces,Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariusz
bit of news from last weekends Turku Rally (Finland)
-Gazoo drivers:
--Arai has english notes (and male co-driver from GB)
--Takamoto is driving with japanise notes (and small female co-river from Japan)
--with them in start/finish area were Ja(r)mo Lehtinen and Jouni Ampuja (former Corolla/Focus WRC driver)
at the moment:
-They will built 5 Toyota WRC in Tommi´s farm
-2 test teams:
--1 in Finland
--1 in WRC locations (same as VW did before joining in)
it is going to be a nice amateur team, fun guaranteed for everyone.
I don't know which theme music is more apt for this effort, the music from Benny Hill or Send in the Clowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
How about this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTSA_sWGM44Quote:
Originally Posted by Grundo Farb
Love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
I don't remember Mr. Wilson complaining when Ford decided to replace Boreham's Motorsport base for his garage in Cockermouth...Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
Ford contracts made MSport a top force in WRC. Why are so many people doubting the same cannot happen with Toyota and TMR?!?
There's also a huge advantage for the sport in these manufacturers and private teams joint ventures. Manus factory teams are usually limited time involvements, only focused in WRC. When marketing strategy diverge or financial crisis erupt they leave the sport instantly. Private teams has rally as their core business; they'll do everything in order to maintain their sport activities, so they tend to develop other rally categories programs, providing competitive cars to national and regional series, helping the sport growth worldwide.
Ok. If people won't do their own research or think then I will for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
It will fail as it is all about the details. There is a massive difference between tinkering with a car in the garage - pretty much what many many car preparation companies do around the world and then competing in the WRC.
I did a quick google on subaru rally car preparers, I came up in 30 seconds with Autosportif, TEG sport, A&H motorsport, Vermont Sportscars, MSL Motorsport etc. All of them like Tommi, modify Subaru Imprezzas. What has he got with regards car preparation pedigree that sets him apart? Nothing, they are all the same. He hasn't won anything with his prepared cars has he?
So lets then look at what he thinks he will be doing. Building and then testing a car himself. He probably can, Alex Kelsey a 19 year old in New Zealand did that.
BUT:
Who will make decisions on the drivers? Who will look after the driver development program? Who will build the sponsorship packages and then entertain the sponsors? Who will spec and buy the equipment for the rally bases in each location and kit out the mechanics? Who will optimise the work the mechanics do? Who will design and get the clothes for the team? Who will organise the catering in the different countries? Who will work out the parts requirements and then ensure they are all available in the right place for each rally? Who will manage the accounts? Who will book the travel? The accommodation? What recce cars will they use?
Why do you think VW did all of this for 12 months with a Skoda and Ogier driving in WRC2??????? Because they had 12 months to kill before the car was ready????
But Tommi says "I will build a car and I will test it".
And please please please stop comparing Tommi and his garage to Malcolm Wilson:
Malcolm Wilson was driving and developing the Escort Cosworth before Ford gave him contracts for the WRC programme, he had an existing relationship and a familiarity with the company. His team won national titles in several countries with the car so he had A) a track record and B) experience of the required logistics to support teams in other countries. The WRC car was originally developed by Ford Motorsport and then handed over to the Belgian RAS Team in 1994. They then took it back in 1996 as it wasn't a success with the Belgians (alarm bells here guys). I know this as my Brother worked for Ford Motorsport in the late 80's early 90's.
Malcolm Wilson wasn't given the contract to run the team and car until the end of 1996 for the 1997 season (the car was still the Escort Cosworth - and had been developed by Ford) the first M-Sport develop car didn't arrive until 1999.
So, he had AT LEAST 3 years experience with the car and company before he entered the WRC with a car not developed by him but Ford Motorsport. He then had another 2 years to get used to the logistics and team management BEFORE a new car was developed.
Take the time to think about this guys.
Honestly people - this is not the small time. It is not a garage next to your house with a bunch of mates.
It is the WRC.
Who said TMR will win WRC in their first 2-3 years?!?
nobody, but i guess that should be the plan when you spend millions... at least for normal people with common understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
But isn´t it a joint venture between Cologne and Tommi? To me it looks pretty clear it will end up like that and all the logistics and problems Grundo Farb was pointing to have been solved. Sponsors? Nah, Toyota doesn´t need them. And companys in motorsport branches will come and ask to put a sticker on their cars anyway.
You ended saying what I've said: before Ford contracts to run their cars in WRC, Malcolm Wilson Motorsport (Msport previous designation) was a team that built cars for costumers using Ford Motorsport designed, tested and developed parts. It was, just like Tommi Makinen Racing has been, a preparation company (with modest facilities near the boss's house, also like TMR...). For sure MWM did a pretty good job setting up Gr.A Escorts, but TMR task preparing Gr.N Imprezas was also a competent one, otherwise it wouldn't be possible for the company to end Prodrive Gr.N domination and sell cars all over the world. Of course, in WRC, S2000 and R5 days Gr.N cars achievements are less noticeable than Gr.A in their glory era, but if you continue the research effort you'll be able to learn TMR Imprezas records.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grundo Farb
For sure Tommi will be busy getting his team sorted out and TMR/Toyota first season will be a learning one, but we can expect that TMR will take less than 10 years to give a world title to his manufacturer partner...
Btw, I'm a Msport enthusiast, not by their erratic WRC path but for the company costumers programs (from R1 to R5, S2000 and RRC/WRC), that are a huge contribution for rally sport development around the world.
How far into the future can we expect Toyota to start selling R3s and R5s, maybe also R2s?
Their R1A is just a cup car, being the only one in the A cat I guess.
Impossible to say, but after setting down WRC car for sure TMR will try to sort R2/R5 cars. They're good business!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
I have to say this seeming commitment to making customer cars is a really good thing and another reason to support this Toyota programme. Obviously it's a balancing act as they don't want their primary product (the WRC car) to fall flat.
The difference between Tommi Makinen and the others is this:
All the others talked and acted as managers to create structures and teams, Tommi Makinen is acting and talking as a driver and a mechanic to create a structure and a team.
Your statement makes complete sense to me... at least one here that have got the lucidity to realize that the move to TMR is very difficult to understand and justify...
WHAT!!??Quote:
Originally Posted by AMSS
So TMG are building their own interpretation of a 2017 Yaris WRC in addition to the works-blessed ones TMR are building?
LOLZ!!!
My guess is that Toyoda put both teams building a car, an in case TMR's be a flop, he always have a plan B to run!
This sounds a little like "internal competition"?!? It would be more interesting if the cars have different base, i.e. TMR to build GT86 for instance....
I read there is likely to be two test teams. TMG to test around the world and TMR to test only in Finland? A bit like Overdrive and Hallspeed?
Two test teams makes sense but not if you're testing different cars - if that is indeed the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeakiwi
I'd really love one of the rally journos to fully pull everything together and try to work out where TMR ends and where TMG begins. We know there will be some partnership - but I doubt it's a joyful close relationship with all those politics at play.
Probably it was the other way around: TMR was the plan B, activated by Mr.Toyoda after another TMG disaster at LeMans!Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlyingTuga
Facts:
- TMG run Toyota Racing F1 team during 8 years (2002 to 2009); in 140 races they didn't win a single grand prix.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Racing
- TMG run Toyota Racing in LeMans 24h from 2012 to 2015 (4 consecutive years); they didn't get a single victory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_24_Hours_of_Le_Mans
- TMG is runing Toyota Racing in WEC from 2012 (26 races until now); they win 10 races and 1 constructor title (2014).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS030_Hybrid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS040_Hybrid
- Toyota presented TMG Yaris WRC in January 2015, announcing their return to WRC from 2017.
http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/detail/5736875/
- Toyota/TMG cars finish the 2015 LeMans 24h (June 14) in 6th and 8th positions.
http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/detail/8257910/
- Toyota announces Tommi Makinen as their WRC program manager in July 7.
http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/detail/8622687
Notes:
- In the 12 TMG running seasons, only WEC results are positive, but they are virtually useless because Toyota main objective in endurance racing is to win LeMans.
- Tommi Makinen choice was reveled 3 weeks after LeMans fail by Mr. Toyoda (Toyota Motor Corp. and Toyota Racing President).
I agree with you Rally Power. TMG is plan A for the car.
I had another look at the TMR website yesterday, it is still advertising the same jobs it was a month ago. If I was Tommi I would say "yes please TMG build me a car", he can then test it, drive it play with it and develop his team. Give himself the necessary time it takes to build a solid structure in time for 2017 and not worry about the car development at the moment. But I have the feeling he has a fairly large ego...
The other thing that puzzles me, in a normal business world company's have budgets. These budgets are based on forecast costs and typically are based on a business plan or business case. For TMG which is a subsidiary of Toyota, they would need to submit their budget for funding to Toyota. Which then means someone in Japan is supporting the development and ongoing commitment to the TMG car - as they are paying for it.
The more I look at this the more it feels like Tommi is a sideshow..
Don't believe so! Makinen choice was a personal one from Toy's boss Mr. Toyoda (grandson of the company founder), so it's hard to believe that it'll be reversed. TMG's guys seems to be pushing as hard as they can because they may fell the choice unjustified and probably their WRC program funding is in place since the beginning of the year. TMG's site on the WRC project somehow reflects some uncertainty as they talk about expanding the Yaris development but they end by saying their role is to assist Toyota involvement in WRC (http://www.toyota-motorsport.com/mot...yaris-wrc#tab1). For sure at any moment there will be a clarifying response from Japan, because these news may damage Toy's motorsport reputation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grundo Farb
Same here. Time for some of the rally journos to earn their corn - instead of rehashing PR pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
post #685Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeakiwi
at the moment:
-They will built 5 Toyota WRC in Tommi´s farm
-2 test teams:
--1 in Finland
--1 in WRC locations (same as VW did before joining in)
Rally is a small world and the few journos covering it probably won’t dig messy issues that could upset the sport stakeholders.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Either way, PR’s are useful to trace a time path of events and you don’t need to be a journo to understand that sometimes they are more than propaganda pieces.
When a major corp admits disappointment on own actions and congratulates their main rival associates they’re pretty much assuming they’ve hugely f…… up. In these cases usually some heads tend to roll.
What are the odds of Latvala joining Toyota?
he is one of the quickest, and if he could form a car around his driving style, and get confidence from the manager, he might stabilize and blossom!
He won't be world champion in a VW as long as Ogier is around - that's for sure. With the Finnish angle to the new team it could be a nice home for him. He needs to do something different and take a risk or two. Otherwise he'll just keep coming second.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
VW have Mikkelsen who can move up, and Lappi who can sit in the third car so no worries for them.
It would be more than a gamble to leave the best car and become part of an uncertain project (uncertain in a performance point of view), but I agree that with Ogier there, it is almost impossible to win more than a couple of rallies per year, and maybe he needs a desperate move. Don't know if I would have the courage to do it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
More interesting (even if I know it wont happen) Ogier joining Toyota who tempting him with a BIG bag of money...
When TMG will recruit a real rally test driver? Sunninen? Camilli? With all respect but not the drivers with speed and WRC experience that a project like this need.
According to rumors Hirvonen will be at test in Italy today. If true I guess he will be driving and not just in the service.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
https://youtu.be/O8vGiLIdSas
I guess this video of a recent test has been discussed before but I am not yet up to date with the forums (been away for a while)... Can anyone explain to me what the light dot on front right bumper is?
Are they measuring yaw and roll or why is there a light on the road?
And why is the TMG car still running? Are they building and developing the car and Tommi maybe building the team structure and the people required to run an event?
And why still run a car that at least when I last heard about it was built to 2014 specs? Maybe they've done updates to it.
It's Correvit optical sensor used for measurement of absolute, longitudinal and transverse speed, distance and tyre slip angle from which many other values can be further counted.Quote:
Originally Posted by itix
Check here various versions with datasheets: https://www.kistler.com/cz/en/applic...sensors_csmota