You dont think that VW took the WRC team to a new level of professionalism and car strength/reliability ? That's what all the experts said when they quit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karukera
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You dont think that VW took the WRC team to a new level of professionalism and car strength/reliability ? That's what all the experts said when they quit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karukera
Everyone wants the new WRC, but the volume of work, especially at M-Sport is creating some problems, albeit at a very different level from the other teams. There have been changes in the production plans for the Fiesta WRC 2017, which forced revisions to the various programs, so OneBet Jipocar team confirmed today that Martin Prokop will only make his debut in the Corsican Rally, and will not go to Mexico. Morten Ostberg, the owner of the team, told AutoSport: "Nothing is decided yet, but it may happen that Martin is already in the WRC Trophy with the 2016 car, but we need more information to decide. The production timings of the Fiesta WRC 2017 are unpredictable, so we will not have the second driver anymore, "said Ostberg. Entries for the Mexico Rally ended yesterday.
This may even seem like a 'problem' on the M-Sport side, but ... far from it. Note that Citroën has three official drivers and will only have three cars there later, probably in Portugal there will already be four, Toyota, sensitively the same thing, being foreseen the debut of Esapekka Lappi only in Portugal, but M-Sport has already had three cars in Monte Carlo and will have four in Sweden. So problems, but 'above' competition ...
http://www.autosport.pt/ralis/martin...eia-no-mexico/
i don't think VW did anything more professional then other official manufacturer teams like citroen or hyundai. Had ogier stayed at citroen, he would most likely still be a 4 times world champion, but VW wouldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
how sure are you about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by KKS
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
He/she/it (probably he) also totally forgot the years when Ford were really competitive (like around 2003, around 2006, the era with Hirvonen etc etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Barreis
Ford have been competitive several times. Jparker just has some weird ununderstandable beef with Ford that hasn't even been explained and refuse to see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
No.
They're pro as expected from a manu, improved the all time win share % vs competition and built an excellent car but one has to keep in mind it was served 4 years by the best line up any team could afford which never happened with Citroën so called dominance, Loeb being almost alone, no disrespect to Sordo and others.
Xsara, C4, DS3 were all good cars but looking at Ford results at that time it is simply reasonnable to think that both squads were technically on par, Loeb made the difference just like Ogier does now. Polo wins are >77% Ogier's.
Couple more hints from last year (and even before) with Tänak, Meeke, Neuville and Paddon strong stunts with as a result Ogier, again, way ahead of the herd, Mikkelsen 3rd behind Neuville and Latvala...
MC17, a continuing saga is underway in a Fiesta.
I disagree, looking at the results you can say simply that Ogier dominated but in two out of four years VW had a 1-2-3 in overall standings and in the others only Neuville spoiled the party. You have to look at their organisation and preparations outside of rallies; as a team I think they were on a higher level than Citroen was; of course the investment was also higher. You actually say it yourself, Citroen were more reliant on Loeb, he was the driving force there, a fantastic driver with a great team. Sure Ogier is also a fantastic driver but he was paired with a fantastic team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karukera
The issue here is not that the other manufacturer teams are not pro, it's that VW took it to a higher level than any team before in the WRC.
Anecdotally: I got the chance to see their rally raid team (Dakar) operate and compare with others (Mitsubishi, Toyota, Nissan) and already there the level of professionalism in their service area was clearly much higher than anyone in that service park.
It's not good to downplay the achievement.
1) Peope keep repeating that with their line-up other teams would win as well. Probably yes BUT to have such great line-up is a definitely an achievement itself. See this year's Citroën line-up with all the free drivers around. Don't You see some difference?
2) They managed to sign the best drivers even without having a car. Can You imagine Ogier signing another team which actually doesn't have anything else than a pair of S2000 cars bought from another company? VW managed to do so.
3) Their approach since the very beginning was very professional and extremely well played. The way to come into the business via taking a learning year with sister-brand's existing cars is unprecedented in the modern history of the sport.
4) They started winning right from the beginning while they had no technical problems right from the beginning. We're talking about a totally new team here and such achievement is definitely very extraordinary.
5) Even though they were totally new to the business they succeeded without relying on established suppliers. They prepared the engine themselves, they developed the dampers with totally new brand in the WRC (Sachs) etc. They took some serious risk here but it paid off.
Autosport.pt:
Jipocar team confirmed today that Martin Prokop will only make his debut in the Corsican Rally, and will not go to Mexico. Morten Ostberg, the owner of the team, told AutoSport: "Nothing is decided yet, but it may happen that Martin is already in the WRC Trophy with the 2016 car, but we need more information to decide. The production timings of the Fiesta WRC 2017 are unpredictable, so we will not have the second driver anymore," said Ostberg. Entries for the Mexico Rally ended yesterday.
http://www.autosport.pt/ralis/martin...eia-no-mexico/
Mirek, my response to Eddie is that they're pro like any other serious teams. I did mention the record acheivements.
Your points are unfortunately repetitive and empirically numbered.
1) They fully committed and spent their war chest (pun not intended) in the rally program, Citroën 2017 line up is a farce.
2) Any driver being offered a huge amount of money with a gigantic ambitious program would have signed up instantly.
3) Repeat of 1)
4) Other teams won from the start. They've been sitting for years watching the big boys doing the real job, learned their hard lesson from the Skoda epic fail in the WRC then gathered the money, hired good people from inside/outside VAG and eventually decided to chime in before leaving like chickens at the end of 2016, dropping 3 drivers at the very last moment.
5) Repeat of previous points.
Polo wins are way too much inequally split in Ogier's favor, fact.
My point is Ogier made the final difference. He would have acheived his records in a Fiesta, DS3 or the late I20.
As a pre-meal to the upcoming Rally Sweden, Ford is actually is the most successful car there since wrc exists with 7 wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
How many of those were with a VW driver in 2nd as well? also "late" I20 was 1 year only when everyone else was already focusing on the 2017 car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karukera
But only 1 of those with a 1.6 turbo WRC unfortunately! Interestingly I see second equal on 6 wins is Peugeot and Saab.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Quote:
Originally Posted by itix
I think he is 130% Subaru fan...
If not mistaken he is American and in America about 80% of everybody with even the slightest interest is Subaru fans, and in events for more than 12 years about a little over 60% of all the cars are Subaru... They have invented several classes with near 100% Subaru entries over here... It is the triumph of advertising and inertia...
Have you seen how amazingly fast all the Subie guys all are? People say (och va fan vet jag men dom låtsas vara seriöst, tror de eller ej) ''Now we are up to the level of Europe......Amerika has arrived!!!''
#alt-reality
So if Subie is bästis ever then you must hate all other brands...
Again, wot da fuq do I know?
Å fan! I just thought! maybe they are all pissed off at Ford because Australian general nice guy Brendon Reeves came over a few years ago and with a nice spec non-turbo 1,6 Fiest he beat every single Subie turbo and non-turbo in North America except British hired gun Higgins and maybe Lestage or Block or some rich guy and did some 3rds overall and 4th overall.. If I was Subie fan I'd be pissed too if some guy in a little n.a. 1,6 proved how slow the entire field is...
Vem vet?
so do the general rally public in USA also hate on Hayden for kicking that Block tryhard's bottom in a 2wd escort ???
or was that kept hush-hush
Toyota offered Ogier "huge amount of money"Quote:
Originally Posted by Karukera
Did he say YES ?
That must have been sponsor related issue, so no good example. That thing about the bad Toyota's suspension was just for the media.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
Hi Donald.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
How serious are you about following rallying? Other than the professional pride of being a 'paid' driver, the top guys in WRC rallying are very much in it for the buzz and the glory - the rewards are secondary. Ogier wouldn't drive anything he didn't feel would be competitive, no matter how much cash was dangled as a carrot. Similarly, Citroen would never have enough cash to tempt him to return as long as Matton is boss. Ogier is set for life already but he does have a small matter of beating records that appears to be all the motivation he needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
Are you really serious with this statement??Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
Did they ? I think you know the figures then.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
Different situation, Ogier developped the Polo, he knew where he was going.
Test drive with TGR was more a Mäkinen's tactic to measure the work done and ahead from Ogier's feedback, he already had his mind on Latvala.
No, I'm not. I have not insider sources, so my comments are based on what I read in the press, and what I read here.Quote:
Originally Posted by AMSS
Let say Ogier liked the Toyota, but there was no place for Red Bull sticker on that car. It's just logical conclusion.
Neither the Fiesta, nor the Yaris: Ogier always believed the Polo would be the best option.
According to Prokop’s words, Ogier intention was to drive the new Polo, run by Jipocar and supported by VW M. He went for other options only after Qatar failled to put the money on the project.
Still, it's nice to see him winning in a MSport Ford.
You might be on something, I got the feeling after this test drive that there was something not right in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karukera
Obviously what you are suggesting, is that Ogier choose Ford as more competitive car over Toyota. Ok, let see how it turns out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
It's a possibility but I think unlikely. They pretty much only have Microsoft and even that isn't exactly prominent on the car, so I don't think that Toyota would turn down Red Bull money other than if it was causing issues with the second car.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
Also if Toyota was a serious option then Ogier could happily have Red Bull all over his helmet (no innuendo intended :eek: ) and still earn a decent wedge. On that basis I think that he made the M-Sport decision based on him thinking it was the best chance of success (as Mintexmemory says, drivers don't opt for a a car they feel is inferior just because the salary is better). That's not to say that he hasn't made a mistake (time will tell), but if the Yaris turns out to be competitive it won't automatically mean that Ogier chose Ford on the basis of money.
If Ogier liked Toyota and was offered decent amount of money why wouldn't he dump Red Bull?Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
I think it all came down to the fact that Toyota at that time wasn't as developed as was Fiesta and Ogier had better relationship with Malcolm. While Toyota team was a bit unfamiliar territory and full of Finns :) Of course I can be wrong, it's just my speculation.
actually 2 with fiesta
Ford WRC return:
"it's not going to happen this year, they are fully committed to their GT program" Malcolm Wilson https://t.co/KoyMIDHB1O https://t.co/eoGUgQ4gSr
Has it ever been confirmed if Toyota did or didn't offer Mikkelsen a drive?
Could it be that he turned them down due to "unfamiliar territory"?
latvala and makinen have the have same manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasselhoax
Ok? Yeah...Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Surely if Ogier was in Makinens plan, Andreas would've been too. If I would believe anything I would say that Toyota offered Andreas something but he wasn't ready to go in to the unknown that was Toyota.
I wouldn't blame him for this since a wrong move could have been career suicide and maybe the catch was that he needed to sign a multiyear deal - something he would not risk.
you are telling me that Mikkelsen was offered a salary in a WRC team for a full season but he prefered to spend his own and sponsor money to run a limited program in R5 ???Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasselhoax
I'm not telling you anything, but in my view it would be strange if he wasn't at least offered a test. Maybe he knows something for next year that is too good or was in talks with someone else?Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Jaques Villeneuve turned down a continued deal with Williams and Mcalaren for a career suicide move to B.A.R. There have been similar situations throughout history.
Would be fun to know.
I think Toyota could only get one driver under contract and it was obviously going to be Latvala, even if Mikkelsen begged them for a drive.
i think you should bother more with F1, things are simpler there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasselhoax
It is unlikely that Latvala will be champion, judging by his performances in the last few years. yes, he is doing well now but he could make many more silly mistakes this year.
he does not have a winning car to become champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRC17
and he has just won a rally ?Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Neither winning teammates to slow down for him and snatch points from others.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T