Unless there is manufacturer support, this has never been the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
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Unless there is manufacturer support, this has never been the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
Same as suggesting Rally2 though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
I agree that the system of homologation is a one of the features which needs to be changed. WRC is the only major motorsport which doesn't allow privately built machines in the top class. Obviously it doesn't work nowadays.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
This is one of the things I am saying last 10-15 years. And both attempts to allow privateers (RGT, R4) were killed by FIA...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
See, we agree with first point of the radical redesign :)Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
That's because in every other major motorsports the rules are usually made by some other government body/organization than FIA. In Le Mans/WEC it's ACO and IMSA, in Dakar/W2RC it's ASO, in F1 it's FOM. These don't really care about manufacturers (it's ofc more complicated in F1, but they still allow privateers).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
In rally it's all about FIA without any other outside force. All they care about is the manufacturer's money. I don't know how much do current manufacturers pay for homologations and stuff, but I guess that if they allow privateers at any level, they could get same or even more money by them from homologation fees. Don't forget that there are only 6 manufacturers now that currently make rally cars - Ford, Toyota, Hyundai, Skoda, Renault and Stellantis. Even if some of the would leave, average fan wouldn't notice as someone would for sure make a car based on these.
But imo to make it work, there have to be more freedom in technical aspect. Both Dakar and Le Mans are pretty free yet cheap.
Actually the most important step for allowing private cars was already done - allowing use of the spaceframe. IMHO it was a lost opportunity not connecting it with allowing privately built cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Yes definitely. But they would need to allow production-based engines. Maybe that would even bring some more manufacturers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Since Rally1 cars are not based on actual road cars I can't see why they wouldn't allow private cars now. But not sure it would be viable. It works in F1 because there is constructors prize money and it is commercially succesful enough to attract large sponsorship income.
Even with some support from Ford and Red Bull, M-Sport have struggled.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ_KrIlY8eE
5m30: David Richards saying they should've flooded the market with R2's and gone that route
What is he saying? Prodrive, Motorsport UK, FIA don't produce Rally2 cars, so who is going to flood the market?Quote:
Originally Posted by JRodrigues
I really don't understand that if ~10 Rally1 cars were Rally2s then the BRC would be healthy.
I'm pretty sure Prodrive would be easily able to produce Rally2 if FIA allow that.
Would be nice if they would made Renault Rally2 now when they are Renault's factory team in Dakar. But I doubt that.
That is really a great video about history of ProdriveQuote:
Originally Posted by JRodrigues
Funny thing is that the manufacturers themselves are allowed to use components from other manufacturers in Rally2 design (if I remember).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
That's pretty normal for cars in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Pretty moot really unless Renault want to enter WRC and they've got their own house for that. Prodrive WRT wouldn't be entering either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
I meant that they use parts originating from cars of other manufacturers. Yes, they are third party parts but still.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Problem is that manufacturers doesn want that somebody use and promote their cars (mainly bodyshells) without their approval...
Shame they couldn't make more of the Mini relationship, if they'd played their cards right they could have made more than a decade of R5/Rally 2 Mini Coopers, a three door hatch that changes relatively little from generation to generation. Would have been a decent business for Prodrive...
The problem is that BMW don't see rallying as part of their heritage, despite what the M3 achieved. Racing they are OK with, but rallying isn't how they see themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
Yeah, they have always had an aversion to rallying and never saw it as something to get involved with, I’m sure I read somewhere in the 80’s they didn’t like the car being dirty for marketing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boyd
Personally, I think they were a little short sighted on the Prodrive Mini idea as that could have leveraged the brand historically and provided a good source of customer Motorsport through Prodrive as stated above.
And yet they've recently raced Dakar with both BMW and Mini for more than a decade...
Mini and BMW should be separate brands in this discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boyd
There's a parallel with the S2000 WRC and proposing Rally2 as top class today. It wouldn't last.Quote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
So why was the project green lit in the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boyd
Others no doubt know more than me, but as I understood it, the project was not a BMW (Mini) project or idea. Prodrive were allowed to use the brand and received some technical help, but there was no financial involvement at all from the factory and the whole thing relied on Prodrive obtaining a commercial sponsor to fund it into 2012 onwards. Prodrive backed it for 2011 to prove the cars worth for attracting a sponsor, but it didn’t happen and the project fell apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by HKSjbg
It was a shame as the chassis was reportedly very good, although the engine was certainly not as good as the others.
From memory (and without looking it up) Prodrive had plans for a generic WRC car, and managed to sell the idea to BMW-Mini. BMW financed the early development/engine, etc It was then up to Prodrive to get a budget for an WRC assault from 2012 onwards, as BMW were returning to the DTM that year, and that was obviously their priority. There were plenty of mainstream news stories in 2011, even on BBC news about the Mini return to the WRC - all part of the plan to get finance/sponsorship. There were rumours of supposed big sponsors signing up, but nothing concrete. There were some promising performances in the few events they did, Meeke setting fastest time in the Rallye Catalunya Power Stage. All seemed good for 2012......Quote:
Originally Posted by HKSjbg
And then just before Christmas 2011, the famous tweet from Meeke....The Mini programme was in trouble and they required a pay driver in the second seat alongside Dani Sordo.
Finally someone say it. People dream about something that will never happen. Btw, Rally2-Kit, N5, Protos and others existance is interesting but i don't see manufacters happy with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
Can they do much about it? E.g. VWs carry on despite VW not wanting to carry on. This is if Dave has his way and if the FIA allows it. The realistic block at top level is the willing manufacturers not wanting competition. With WRC2 being a teams championship, there's no good reason I can see, as the future comes, why this isn't the way forward. It could even be the only way to retain ICE cars and keep people happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
In old days, importers in each country had own teams, building own cars.
Why would a manufacturer deny an official importers rallyteam based on a spaceframe and a productionbased engine?
I know its a long step fram a Escort MK2 to todays Rally1 cars, but someone around are able to build and finance a rallyteam.
Maybe rallying for a manufacturer is a dead horse anyway, maybe it has to be changed to more open and more simple rules to survive?
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Main problem was that Prodrive was always hoping they will dig more money from BMW...Quote:
Originally Posted by doubled1978
Rally needs cheap and powerful cars. But FIA wants to take money from manufacturers, and these want to make money selling racecars, rather than allow independent builders.
The FIA R4 Kit by Oreca was a great idea, but the FIA didn't push for it as they should.
The FIA is now working on a Rally5 Kit, but I honestly don't think they will really push it either.
Rally5 Kit aims to be regional cup class. It doesn't really "parasite" on manufacturers as there is close to zero interest both from drivers, who rather choose Rally4, so I guess there is no reason to lobby against that. I haven't seen many Rally5s "in wild", most of them were in Toksport Clio Cup.
But don't forget that Rally5 Kits have to be homologated through ASNs, so there is still control over who can build a car.
If ewrc is correct, renault has sold over 800 clio rally4 rally5's. is suspect most of those are rally5, so that's not something you can call zero interest. They are wildly popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
https://scontent.fopo5-1.fna.fbcdn.n...pw&oe=65C4F744
Autosprint, pic via Borja Romero
What? Rally2 for 2025 cuz that will make Lancia join?
Doubt.... and Rally2 PLUS will be expensive haha Just run the damn R5s, for f sake haha
"AHH BUT KALLE AND TIERRY DONT WANT TO RUN RALLY 2 CARS"
Well F* Kalle and Tierry then, jeeezzzz....
If I remember correct, Kalle basically said that ,,rally2 on steroids'' would be ok IF really needed..
While this might become reality at some point I seriously doubt it will be already 2025...Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
2026 at earliest.Quote:
Originally Posted by AMSS
If its a change before that, it is plain Rally2.
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Rally2+ concept by Keane Design
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GDg16QhX...jpg&name=large