[WRC] FORUM8 Rally Japan 2024

“It is difficult, it is clearly painful for every single team member – just like I’m sure it was painful for them {Ott and Martin Jarveoja],” Abiteboul added when asked about Tanak’s crash and its impact on the manufacturers' battle.

“I’m going to be honest: I still struggle to measure to what extent [the drivers] know the risk level they are taking in these cars. It is not circuit racing where lap after lap you can say I need to go one tenth faster or one tenth slower, it is not like that. They have a green light to go and then they are alone.

“We are in a time of massive connectivity and an amount of data but there is none of that, and sometimes what is obvious to us looking at the split – it was obvious to me that he was way too quick. It is obvious to me but is it obvious to him? I don’t know.

“The message was clear. We said that we needed to be P3 and P5 [on Sunday], not P1 or P2. There was no necessity to be on a crazy push like that, but the key question is: to what extent do they know they are on such a big push?

“He was starting last and I think there was phone coverage of the stage, but having said that, there is not split information in the car. I have to excuse myself for still lacking experience in knowing their ability to assess.
https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/...feat/10676584/

Tänak said that the slippy conditions in the corner came as a surprise. So, it is most likely the mistake from the recce and/or from the gravel crew. If the obvious mistake was made there, I'm not sure the result of pushing just-a-bit-less would make any difference. This is rallying and this kind of stuff happens.

This was the closest and at that moment the most understandable points-loss from the season to lose the manus title. If to take only this rally - why we don't talk about technical issues with Neuvilles car, how many points were lost with that? Why we don't talk about Mikkelsen crashing out, how many points were lost with that? Why we don't talk about Mikkelsen's driving mistake on PS? This was just this rally - how many of these kinds of situations we can find from the season?

I say the same: Mr. A has to look in the mirror first. Who was that genius who decided that Mikkelsen is very safe and good choice on the tarmac? If they would have done smart choices over the entire season, they would have won it long before Japan.

Btw, check the very interesting mr. Abiteboul's beef with Horner re: engines in the very first season of DtS - how different their carriers have gone afterwards.

Can't criticize them.. you know.

Don't like that oh no, he was pushing sooo hard..
He wasn't like 5sec up on the splits.. far from it..

What if he was pushing and taking it easy at the same time(Abibubu logic) and losing +7-10sec to lead split time and still slipped in that corner..

Then it would have been bad luck?

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Originally Posted by AndersX

I say the same: Mr. A has to look in the mirror first. Who was that genius who decided that Mikkelsen is very safe and good choice on the tarmac? If they would have done smart choices over the entire season, they would have won it long before Japan.

Btw, check the very interesting mr. Abiteboul's beef with Horner re: engines in the very first season of DtS - how different their carriers have gone afterwards.

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Bruh taking Mikkelsen for TARMAC rallies was one of the most stupid decisions I have ever seen. Whoever made that decision needs to get drug tested lol

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Originally Posted by focus206

I'll say this though: I don't know how much Tanak was overpushing and how much it was the notes' fault for not warning about the tricky muddy corner.

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This crash seems to be a strange one. I looked his onboard and tried to compare it with other drivers. Evans was more careful there, but Ogier seemed to carry more speed through this corner. It seems the corner got muddier with each passing car and they didn't notice it during recce.

NB! This is my amateur understanding and in reality it might be complete rubbish.

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Originally Posted by AndersX

I say the same: Mr. A has to look in the mirror first. Who was that genius who decided that Mikkelsen is very safe and good choice on the tarmac? If they would have done smart choices over the entire season, they would have won it long before Japan.

Btw, check the very interesting mr. Abiteboul's beef with Horner re: engines in the very first season of DtS - how different their carriers have gone afterwards.

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I know I'm gonna be bacxlashed for this but hell, even Lappi, JUST for Japan would've been a safer bet, he was the only Hyundai driver to finish last year, and in 4th.
Now imagine Lappi say was 4th going into Sunday, even with Ott's mistake he'd now be 3rd.... a long way up from where Mikkelsen finished, where did Mikelsen finish?
This isn't to say Tänak didn't make a silly mistake (to say the least), but this is rally, sh*t happens, (Catalunya 2021 anyone?), I'm sure he's kicking himself about it and will be for sometime. The best thing to do now is to go with a freshmindset in 2025, starting again with 0 points, and NOT go off, puncture them Hankook tyres on the second stage of the rally and finish with a solid point scoring finish.

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Originally Posted by meh

So, it is most likely the mistake from the recce and/or from the gravel crew.

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It is nice how everybody notices gravel crew. But dont forget that he was starting as last Rally1 car, so there were plenty of cars before him which can bring the gravel or any dirt to the road in front of him. There are drivers who are cutting to bring more gravel on the road for other drivers...

Yep, just as expected here.

Tanak makes a championship deciding completely stupid mistake when under no pressure and with instructions NOT to push.

But the estonian fanclub here blames Mikkelsen for losing 2 points on PS (which didn't matter as long as Neuville got beaten by Ogier) or bring up Lappi who last year (in a completely different point system) managed 4th with super-slow safe driving after many retired and crashing out completely on first day/stages both rallies before.

BB

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Originally Posted by Eli

I know I'm gonna be bacxlashed for this but hell, even Lappi, JUST for Japan would've been a safer bet, he was the only Hyundai driver to finish last year, and in 4th.
Now imagine Lappi say was 4th going into Sunday, even with Ott's mistake he'd now be 3rd.... a long way up from where Mikkelsen finished, where did Mikelsen finish?
This isn't to say Tänak didn't make a silly mistake (to say the least), but this is rally, sh*t happens, (Catalunya 2021 anyone?), I'm sure he's kicking himself about it and will be for sometime. The best thing to do now is to go with a freshmindset in 2025, starting again with 0 points, and NOT go off, puncture them Hankook tyres on the second stage of the rally and finish with a solid point scoring finish.

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Comparing completely uncomparable. Point system, manu champs (all decided, due to Lappi and Suninen crashes last year).

This year on Friday Mikkelsen was told to push on a dirty road because of Neuville issues. Last year Lappi was told to drive as safe as possible to get to finish after Sordo and then Neuville crashed.

Btw. you did notice Lappi was actually behind Mikkelsen in Rally2 car most of Friday last year ?

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Originally Posted by mknight

This year on Friday Mikkelsen was told to push on a dirty road because of Neuville issues.

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Lol.. ,,Mikkelsen to push..''
By the time Neuville gor his turbo issues, Mikkelsen was already a day behind..
Lost almost a minute on SS2 and then ended the day on SS5.

ofc Tanak should have brought it to the finish, but saying he had no pressure is also bs.
3rd drivers are also there to bring home points when fast drivers screw up.. should learn from Sordo.

DD

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Originally Posted by TypeR

Lol.. ,,Mikkelsen to push..''
By the time Neuville gor his turbo issues, Mikkelsen was already a day behind..
Lost almost a minute on SS2 and then ended the day on SS5.

ofc Tanak should have brought it to the finish, but saying he had no pressure is also bs.
3rd drivers are also there to bring home points when fast drivers screw up.. should learn from Sordo.

DD

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Somehow Mikkelsen screw up, make up for it and screw again on PS, but if he end up 2nd or 3rd (I honestly believe he would not beat Ogier) on last stage, points would be even, but I think Toyota would win by statistics.

The fact is that Hyundai did fucked up big time with this 3rd driver schedule. They should put Lappi/Mikkelsen in every second rally, missing only those who Sordo attend, but still the team could bring one more vehicle for those occasions, and Sordo would be nominated for points, since he is the most reliable (still). That way both would have enough seat time,
and preparations.

Neuville once again prove how things should be done. He had very unfortunate moment with turbo failure, risk damaging the car even more by driving through so much long stages, fall on 15th place, had minutes of difference and on sunday climb back to gain some valuable points on unbelievable 7th place. In manufacturer it didn't matter since all other crews take out all other points. I mean hr was like that all season. He had many screw moments but never saw that completely destroying moments. Tanak had really big ones. And Ogier, also Rovanpera. Mikkelsen and Lappi are class of his own. They were slow and even then screw things up. And all those things then contributed to results now.

Next year I can expect maybe a little less "careful" approach from everyone, because that fragile component will be removed (even slight impact could turn off unit and have huge role in losing so much time). But having new tire supplier, surely it will be a lot of punctures.

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Originally Posted by mknight

Yep, just as expected here.

Tanak makes a championship deciding completely stupid mistake when under no pressure and with instructions NOT to push.

But the estonian fanclub here blames Mikkelsen for losing 2 points on PS (which didn't matter as long as Neuville got beaten by Ogier) or bring up Lappi who last year (in a completely different point system) managed 4th with super-slow safe driving after many retired and crashing out completely on first day/stages both rallies before.

BB

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Nation-level generalization here is pure stupidity.

Go back and re-read again what I wrote.

Greetings from Estonia.

Hyundai should let their 3th and 4th drivers do the full season. More mileage is always better.

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Originally Posted by mknight

Comparing completely uncomparable. Point system, manu champs (all decided, due to Lappi and Suninen crashes last year).

This year on Friday Mikkelsen was told to push on a dirty road because of Neuville issues. Last year Lappi was told to drive as safe as possible to get to finish after Sordo and then Neuville crashed.

Btw. you did notice Lappi was actually behind Mikkelsen in Rally2 car most of Friday last year ?

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What I'm trying to say is, putting Mikkelsen for the tarmac event was a stupid desciosion, maybe just maybe if they'd bring in him to other gravel events, say even Chile (as Lappi did crash there last year), might've meant the situation in Japan could've been avoided, that's all. And yes I did notice, but when it comes to tarmac, even though he's not a tarmac expert ( & neither is Mikkelsen), since the Rally1 cars have been introduced, he's managed to finish most of them (4/6) with 2 events on the podium. I mean, whoever thought of putting Mikkelsen in that 3rd car on tarmac after he's been out of the WRC for 4 years...

Also, I never once said it wasn't Ott's own mistake, I'm just saying, he wasn't the only one to have made one. You could tell after the crash he just wanted to burry his head in the sand (understanably).

A margin for error is so so small at this level, so we can't really blame Tanak here. Of course he made a costly mistake, but mistake happens and after all, he is just a human. No doubt it was fatal for Hyundai.

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Originally Posted by CeskyOndra

A margin for error is so so small at this level, so we can't really blame Tanak here. Of course he made a costly mistake, but mistake happens and after all, he is just a human. No doubt it was fatal for Hyundai.

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Isn't he literally the only one to blame?! He was 30 seconds in front and still pushing....

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Originally Posted by rallyfiend

Isn't he literally the only one to blame?! He was 30 seconds in front and still pushing....

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It was obvious that he was after drivers title, despite little chances of achieving it, even more when Neuville end on 7th position on saturday and grab 4 provisional points. It was those facts that this crash was much more dramatical than it actualy was.

It was also Cyril's fault before rally. He was all over media that he will not interfere who will win the title, since it will be Hyundai driver (that was decided already at CER). And also that the priority for team is driver title. SO I guess Tanak did get wrong picture. Early in season he said that telling one driver to back for other is not necessary until one will have chance for the title.

Maybe now when both have title under belt, they could be more effective and maybe even Neuville could take a break on Ott, helping each other more, being real team-mates, so the 3rd driver will rarely be needed.

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Originally Posted by rallyfiend

Isn't he literally the only one to blame?! He was 30 seconds in front and still pushing....

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But you have to look the whole season and bigger picture where the things went wrong, not just one rally. It’s so easy to blame him at the moment cause it happened in the heat of the moment. Had that crash been in the middle of the season then no one wouldn’t care. The decision to put Mikkelsen as third car for tarmac events was utterly stupid since the beginning. We saw in Poland how good he did on gravel.

Ogier binned it for 3 rallies straight and I didn’t see that the fans painted him as such a villain and blamed him for everything as Tänak is being done now.

The reason that Hyundai had a chance at all for manu title were actually the crashes and point losses from Kalle and Ogier, otherwise they would have claimed it earlier already.

Look I’m not overly defending Tänak here, the zero points he got from Colin drivers ratings is fair, the mistake was very bad and costly but we can’t put all the blame on him IMO

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Originally Posted by rallyfiend

Isn't he literally the only one to blame?! He was 30 seconds in front and still pushing....

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Yes, it was just a mistake that can happen, but because it is Tänak people have to find a reason for the mistake. Be it the gravel crew (which as Pluto said makes hardly any sense) or something else because it couldn't just be a honest slip up.

It is a bit of actio=reactio situation. Tänak fans are looking for a reason why it happened as a result others bring up that it was a costly mistake by him and now we are in an endless loop.

The wohle Mikkelsen point loss in the PS vs. Tänak point loss on Sunday needs to be looked at with a bit of context I think.

As soon as Tänak was out, both Mikkelsen and Neuville just had to go as f* fast as possible no matter the consequences. It was a clear win it or bin it situation at that point.

But anyway Abitebul gets a lot of shit thrown at him for no reason, yet he put it perfectly how they lost the championship throughout the year.

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Originally Posted by EstWRC

Ogier binned it for 3 rallies straight and I didn’t see that the fans painted him as such a villain and blamed him for everything as Tänak is being done now.

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Most probably because he is an 8 time champ and considered one of the GOATs. GOATs can get away with everything.

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Originally Posted by AE1WRC

Most probably because he is an 8 time champ and considered one of the GOATs. GOATs can get away with everything.

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In the end Toyota won the championship and it didn't happen on the last event.

You have to bear in mind the circumstances in Japan (it being the last event) so everyone knew what they had to do to win the Manus.This wasnt the case when Ogier and Rovanpera made their Sunday mistakes on earlier events.

Tanak and Mikkelsen both knew the stakes were high and let the team down at the crucial moment.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/did-t...oyotas-season/ latest podcast... I caught something regarding of Fourmaux and their commitment, but it's just some clues. They ask Cyril about it and he tell in a way they will indeed have 3rd full time driver, so it's first clue it is Adrien there. No surprise actualy. And then they mentioned that Hyundai could actually run 3 programmes simultaneously and that the rallying should be on the board. Well I hope.

It's kind of sad that you read on the other series that manufacurers are keep coming to them, despite the already have huge amount of them... Latest is Land Rover in Dakar 2026. And Cadillac in F1. And here... Here nothing... even those wjho are left are weighing on leaving or staying... very sad at the moment. I hope that this year's stories will somehow pump blood in recognition of the sport again.

I just read Clarks driver ratings, I know he is biased towards certain drivers but "alternative facts" are a new low.

He claimed Ogier was the fastest man all weekend, someone should tell him that the second leg is not the whole weekend.

Also Katsutas raiting is the same as Ogier, Neuville and Evans for what reason?

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Originally Posted by becher

I just read Clarks driver ratings, I know he is biased towards certain drivers but "alternative facts" are a new low.

He claimed Ogier was the fastest man all weekend, someone should tell him that the second leg is not the whole weekend.

Also Katsutas raiting is the same as Ogier, Neuville and Evans for what reason?

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Why are people taking Clark's ratings seriously ? I would rather read the ratings of Luke or David (both of them I really like to read their articles and listen them on the podcast)

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Originally Posted by deephouse

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It's kind of sad that you read on the other series that manufacurers are keep coming to them, despite the already have huge amount of them... Latest is Land Rover in Dakar 2026. And Cadillac in F1. And here... Here nothing... even those wjho are left are weighing on leaving or staying... very sad at the moment. I hope that this year's stories will somehow pump blood in recognition of the sport again.

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that's not entirely true. wrc would have manufactures coming too with a bit of openness toward them. the management is trying but there's refusal also from the fans!!! there were lots of rumors about manufacturers ready to commit, but looking for some kind of ev (lancia, renault). now there's some kind of opening if the new reg rumors are true, but you can read already here on this forum people moaning about "a mess of a reg" and at the very same time "lack of new manus"...

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Originally Posted by AE1WRC

Why are people taking Clark's ratings seriously ? I would rather read the ratings of Luke or David (both of them I really like to read their articles and listen them on the podcast)

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I'm not taking them properly serious but I was still surprised that he didn't even bother check stage times.

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Originally Posted by wyler

that's not entirely true. wrc would have manufactures coming too with a bit of openness toward them. the management is trying but there's refusal also from the fans!!! there were lots of rumors about manufacturers ready to commit, but looking for some kind of ev (lancia, renault). now there's some kind of opening if the new reg rumors are true, but you can read already here on this forum people moaning about "a mess of a reg" and at the very same time "lack of new manus"...

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Like that we have some say in all of this. Even when they give us that survey what future should look alike, they give only answers, that are good for them. And at the end screw that too. I don't agree at all that they are trying, well maybe now a little, but deciding the rules at the last moment, getting forward and backwards and again forwards without any real clue is clearly not trying.

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Originally Posted by deephouse

Like that we have some say in all of this. Even when they give us that survey what future should look alike, they give only answers, that are good for them. And at the end screw that too. I don't agree at all that they are trying, well maybe now a little, but deciding the rules at the last moment, getting forward and backwards and again forwards without any real clue is clearly not trying.

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don't get me wrong, I don't mean fans as me or you, I'm referring fans as a marketing body.