Not true, WEC has BOP and Formula 1 has the cost cap. Both are super successful right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Printable View
Not true, WEC has BOP and Formula 1 has the cost cap. Both are super successful right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
If you're being rude, at least read my complete post. Not my words, according to National Geographic.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
Cost cap could work, rallying showed in the past 20 years that BOP is not needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
But if a cost cap of lets say 20 million (Toyota is rumoured to be on 60 million currently isn't it?) would be enough to entice manufacturers is questionable.
No problem, most around here aren't native speakers I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by fiscorpun
successful how? are the championships more equal now? have they made anything better in any way?Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
the only things cost caps do is make the teams do creative bookkeeping and outsource as much as possible to get around them. the big teams are still way ahead of the small ones and will always be.
i would like for it to be easier/cheaper go get into wrc somehow, but the reality is that any manufacturer that wants to have a chance to win will need to spend roughly as much as their competitors do.
it's simple. you want to beat toyota, you have to spend as much or more than toyota. which will make toyota spend more if they also really want the title. so in the end the cost to win a the title in a mechanical sport is always the biggest amount of cash any of the competitors is willing to throw at it.
Yes and yes. Both championships are more equal, both championships are more interesting, both championships have more viewers and both championships have more interest from manufacturers.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Sure, so make it look like WEC few years ago, when no team wanted to spend so much money to beat Toyota, so Toyota were competing alone. That's what you want?Quote:
it's simple. you want to beat toyota, you have to spend as much or more than toyota.
I’m not so much in favour of a cost cap system particularly as like the fella above said, creative bookkeeping can render the cap pointless.
BOP works, whether people like it or not, series that employ it in whatever guise do better in terms of manufacture involvement and participation. F1 can get away without it because it’s F1.
The WEC formula is a good one, the cars have to all go through the Sauber wind tunnel and fit into a Max/Min vales of downforce and drag. Energy usage is controlled and then BOP on top of that if required. The need to spend huge on development is negated simply because the car will either not comply to the pre-set Max/Min values or get BOP restricted to slow it down.
Whatever the new WRC class is to be could use similar principals to keep costs under control.
WRC had much fewer "no hoper" cars in the last 20 years than either sportscar racing or F1. Since 2017 everyone had a winning car bar the post covid Fiesta. In circuit racing this is unheard of and BOP is mostly needed to prevent hopeless developments or include unsuitable cars (think GT3 Bentley by M Sport) but again in rallying no one tried a silly base car since more than 20 years or so. Would BOP change anything at the moment? Would it change anything in future regulations?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
About cost cap: While true that financial "optimisations" can be done and most likely are already put in place by most teams in F1 there is a limit of what they can actually do. Moreover the teams watch eachother like hawks so it's somewhat self policing between them as well. The result, while it's true that Red Bull are dominating at the moment, in fact it is the tightest difference between the first and last car ever. The ATR/windtunnel restrictions and show and tell rules will gradually work to reduce that difference. Also keep in mind that 20 years ago teams were being sold for a nominal $1 whereas now they are worth hundreds of millions going towards a billion. Audi is paying hundreds of millions for 75% of Sauber. If that's not a healthy championship then I don't know what is.
To those that suggest the cost cap is innefective because it can be bypassed I suggest you educate yourselves on how it works in detail. Now if you suggest to me, like an acquaintance recently did, that it's just for show and just a giant conspiracy between the teams the FIA and the 3rd party international auditor and that in fact the cost cap has no effect than I will not reply anymore since I'd rather not waste my time ;)
About BOP: BOP has the effect to limit spending because it stops chasing diminishing returns for increased costs. It's not just to help unsuitable cars in GT3 it's also a hard cap on performance. Yes it takes some budget to get to the reference but afterwards it's a hard limit on outright performance. Afterwards you need to have the best team and execute the races well. Yes it's very political and controversial. Still, I watched Group C fall when it became to expensive, then GT1 then LMP1 Hybrid (not to mention other categories or series). I'd rather have BOP than nothing. Also WEC is incredibly successful. This year there was record or near record crowd at Le Mans with over 300.000 tickets sold out half a year in advance. There are more manufacturers than almost ever. Because so many people want to race in the top category they are having to drop LMP2 from the WEC because they don't fit in the pitlane anymore. This year's Le Mans went down to the last 30 minutes or so between two teams with 5 different manufacturers leading the race at some point on merit. If that's not succesfull I don't know what is.
I'm not saying the WRC needs to take one of these and implement it, they need to find their own way or adapt one of those. But doing nothing will just make it lose out. Again.
How do they run things in america? Look at those Baja and Desert racing. (I know.. "Its different", but its "rally", so just join the ride... haha) They have TONS of entries, and those trucks are TOUGH! No actual manufacturer competing, its just people and teams and OEMs building those machines... I like this concept. Maybe there is something to learn from them? Rally1 cars are already roll cages with engines and aerokits... Can a cultural shift happen somehow? (More people/teams/oems building stuff and selling)
You don't have took to the America. Dakar does the same already. Anyone can build car there with variety of engines. And there are a lot of entries from various makers, privateers, or tuners.
For example, Martin Prokop is building his Ford Raptor in his team. Well if a privateers can build Dakar car, I'm sure that huge teams like Prodrive, GCK or Oreca will be able to build Rally1 car.
I appreciate your argument for BOP but still rallying stayed true to straight regulations for so long and had a working championship competion wise (=> most/all cars being on a similar level most of the time) almost all of the time in the last 30 years. Also I don't think that the cost of the cars or their fairly limited development is the big budget factor, otherwise M Sport wouldn't be able to come out with a competitive car on a shoe string and than stay in the hunt for at least 2-3 years. Rallying is just hugely expensive when you consider what all goes with it compared to running a similarly "complicated" car in a professional circuit racing championship for 13 races.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
The reason the cost cap increased the value of teams is because there is revenue in F1 which thanks to the cost cap is now in many cases bigger than the cost, but that revenue doesn't exist in WRC. So we would need the foundation first to achieve a sort of franchise status that F1 now has. Of course a cost cap could still work even without that, but would it entice manufacturers on its own?
I am afraid BoP would be very hard to implement in WRC where terrain is very different from one rally to the next, from one stage to the next, even from one car to the next (when showers arise ..). Nothing like circuit racing where you drop the car in a wind tunnel, evaluate the downforce and provide adjustments - then everyonne one runs in the same condictions year in, year out and tweaks can be made with simple ballast.
As said, performance of cars is already prretty much balanced for all manufacturers, whether in Rally1 or rally2. The only issue is not enough teams/cars, because (i) outrageous cost and (ii) stupid regulation forbiding tuners to enter (which is called greed as FIA wants manufacturers to pay big entrry fees).
So to my opinion only 2 options :
1- Scale down to Rally2 - not Rally2 +, just basic rally2. There is a huge base of cars already in the field. Not to metion that this iw what rallying is all about : all competitors on (more or less) equal footing
2- Create a spec category with many standard parts (subframe, hybrid unit, gearbox, ...) open to all (importers and tuners included) provided of course it relates to some road car.
On both cases top teams would always remain on top, but the competition would be heated with small mistakes payed cash (=dropping dow the order) and the odd private entrant/specialist having the day of his life and fighting with the big boys. Lot more uncertainty, lot more fun ad better stories for the promoter. Back to the 90's GpA or the 70-80's Gp4 days !
I understand we'll loose the woaw effect of the current Rally 1 machines, but do you want a 6 cars show (once one of the current manufacturers out) ? All of us who also go and spectate second tier events (ERC, national) know that a well driven Rally2 car can put up a great show... if not compared to bigger/faster machinery.
That's the question, isn't it? I personally don't think that taking that taking X or Y from another series and applying it to WRC is the solution. But also rejecting everything isn't either. WRC needs to find its own secret sauce but there are things out there that work and shouldn't be ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
In WRC there are already a bunch of cost saving measures like limited testing, limited tyres, limited diff spec. I am asking myself lately how well these are working and if they are actually good for the sport. Like the one diff spec that makes a car work for a driver but not another surely can't be good for the competition. Is that really the right place to save costs? What if instead they save costs on aero development with a BOP style rule just for the aero? And then is just the cost the issue or is it also the marketing value, should they work more on the presentation? The only "bright" idea the promoter has had lately is to create a 24/7 Rally TV Channel on the internet in 2023 where everyone can stream whatever they want whenever they want on demand...
Yeah thats the point, just taking ideas from somewhere else is too simplistic. And I agree, many cost saving measures don't really work (especially limiting certain technical aspects) as teams just spend more than before because they develop in more intricate meaners. But BOP for aero seems like a moot point in the Rally1 era. Was there anything significant in that area? Don't think so. It's also not the defining factor performance wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
Obviously aero BOP wouldn't be enough by itself but could be part of a package. Usually aero development is expensive so putting a cap on aero efficiency would cap spending in that area. you'd have to know where money goes and decide what's worth it and what's not and that's something we can't decide on the forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
Has anyone seen this? The FIA Road Map for Sustainable Energies in Motorsport?
WRC can have H2 and EVs starting in 2025
https://e-formula.news/e-series/e-ra...ublished-42761
PS: Extreme-E is not a FIA series. AMC (Automobile Club de Monaco) is the governing body. Interesting. Never knew this thing existed. They are behind both Monte Carlo races (F1, WRC)
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/f...ting/10500583/
Would be nice if they'd at least give us some details for what the next step is, and stop pretending they're the secret four or whatever.
Next step is to keep Rally1 more or less the same I presume. I don't think they know about 2027 and after.
I just realised that one of the things that take up enormous amounts of time, testing and mony, being shock absorbers, could easily made a standard cheaper design if it would be made mandatory for all teams. It would also bring the cars closer to each other and could make the driving more spectacular if done right.
Since Rally1 cars are not proper rally cars those organisations you mention can do this already (if they can fund it and find a manufacturer to stick their badge and headlights on it)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Yeah, but the point is that they don't need to find manufacturers at Dakar. Several teams showed that they can build rally car, but finding support of manufacturers is the hardest part.
Just remember the Corsa R5.
But if they don't find a manufacturer then they have to find funding elsewhere, and if they can find that then why wouldn't a manufacturer agree if it isn't going to cost them anything?
My guess is that if Toyota are indeed spending 60 million euros, that amount wouldn't provde ROI for an external sponsor.
In Dakar there are teams that can run team without manufacturers.
And I don't know why manufacturer wouldn't agree. But try to ask Opel, Mitsubishi, Suzuki and others.
because constructors have no control over what happens when they don't pay, and it could result in bad publicity.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
The need to have a constructor is a insurmountable obstacle for anyone who wants to build anything. And not just in rc1, but in every class of rallying. I could probably build myself a competitive rc5 or rc4, but i can never get to use it outside of some local regulations because I am no manufacturer and I can't get it homologated.
It seems the rules are specifically designed to discourage projects that are not backed up by the ever shrinking number of manufacturers, making it effectively impossible to build a car without the permission of one of the huge auto groups.
Dakar has the luck it is ruled by ASO and not by the FIA, or it would have died long ago.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/does-hybr...re-in-the-wrc/
Here we go again.
Jesus Christ
Extreme-E is going Hydrogen for 2025. And they will become an FIA World Championship. Not sure if the "exclusivity clausule" will be in place, making it impossible for WRC ("Off Road" championship) to go Hydrogen (like F1 CANT go electric because of F-E - "open wheel").
After viewing this video, I will now shill relentlessly for hydrogen over electric as the future of the WRC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dgzKW8EKMc
Michelin expected to submit WRC tyre tender bid
Michelin will submit a bid to become the World Rally Championship's control tyre supplier from 2025-2027, Motorsport.com understands.
https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/...-bid/10519296/
"The WRC promoter wants to come to Gran Canaria to run the Rally Islas Canarias".
https://automovilismocanario.com/202...slas-canarias/
The new sports councillor of the Goverment of Gran Canaria, Aridany Romero, explained in the programme "Ser Deportivos", when asked about the situation of the Rally Islas Canarias, that "the budget is important and we are talking" so that it can be valid for the World Rally Championship.
"We are convinced that we can have the WRC in Gran Canaria, but we have to meet with all the institutions because the budget is important, more than double the cost of the European Rally Championship - we are talking about an amount that exceeds the option of having "La Vuelta Ciclista a Espaņa" in the Canary Islands in 2026," he said.
Despite this, "The Goverment of Gran Canaria cannot assume it in its entirety and that is why we are talking to the other institutions, because otherwise it would be unfeasible".
He acknowledged that "negotiations with the WRC promoter are at an advanced stage and one of the options to reduce costs is that instead of having the WRC for just one season, it would be two in a row. The important thing is that the WRC promoter wants to come to Gran Canaria to run the Rally Islas Canarias for its fans, its roads ... Canarias is at the level of the best and we do not have to feel less than anyone. The fact that all the goodness of our rally is recognised gives us an enormous pride."
No thanks - it belongs in the ERC. Rallye Catalunya should be the Spanish WRC round.....
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/miche...to-wrc-return/Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
The decision will be revealed on the 19th of October meeting of the World Motor Sport Council.
Why, because you said so?Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Canary Islands, and specifically Gran Canaria, has the best rally fans in Spain, and has even won awards for it.
For many years the island of Gran Canaria has deserved to host a WRC rally. Now is the time.
The organizers have proven to be able to host a ERC rally for many years ago.
Pirelli out of WRC from 2025.
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/w...-bid/10520900/
Ogier full season confirmed lol
Maybe MRF will be there instead or do you guys think Michelin will be back in 2025?
where is the info?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauri_J
Wait for MRF to win.
He means Michelin coming back will entice Ogier to return for a full season :)Quote:
Originally Posted by htr