WRC mainclass from 2027

[WRCStan]

It's not based on an available road car
And so what?

it's not on sale as a road car
And so what?

and cannot be eligible for rally championships
It is eligible for WR2C, a rally championship. You said you've seen it there.

You can call it a car as a broad term.
Oh right?

(All rhetorical)


you said it's a 100% a rally, as if a regularity rally and a speed rally are the same discipline.

Rally is rally; maybe you forget WRC is partly regularity rally in classification; time cards, controls and penalties are part of it. There's different ways to classify competitors in rally. You can have rallies where the prettiest car wins or where whoever takes photos of things along the route wins. You could have a Puma Rally1 in a regularity rally or an Ioniq in a speed rally; they both being road cars... in road rallies. Reminder that the context of ecoRally coming up in conversation was road relevance, or in my terms, 'consumer production car relevance'. No amount of mental gymnastics should be necessary.

The Alternative Energies Cup had other disciplines back in the day besides the rally 'class' that ecoRally Cup was born from. It was circuit racing and speed trials IIRC and they weren't all contested by the same cars and teams. So no, that does not mean they were all rally cars in AEC.

There used to be open cars with platforms built in for politicians to speak to crowds at rallies, back in the day in USA at least. Maybe they were called rally cars.


No, I won't check the regs.

Try it, you might learn something.

[WRCStan]

It looks like the best we can hope for is Toyota WRC27 Cars vs the existing Rally2 Cars.

Reckon promoter will back a tuner or two to beef up the entrants?

[focus206]

Try it, you might learn something.

Still going on with your ridiculous arguments? It has already been expressed, in a much clearer way than how you write, that many consider the presence of a valid related road car essential for a rally car. You don't agree? Too bad for you.

I don't care how many times you isolate words in a sentence and pedantically say that rally raid vehicles are rally cars. Speed rally is not rally raid and is not regularity rally. Different championships, different disciplines, different cars. At this point you're just wasting people's time, especially when you started the whole "fans who want to mantain a level of road relevance in rally cars shoudl go watch Eco Rally Cup instead" conversation, which has nothing to do with this topic and no rally fan would consider that seriously.

[WRCStan]

many consider the presence of a valid related road car essential for a rally car. You don't agree? Too bad for you.

Too bad for everybody if nobody ever disagreed. Also my opinion is that those points are very much related to this thread topic, we didn't get there cordially, but maybe can after some time to reset the tone.

[Steve Boyd]

Reckon promoter will back a tuner or two to beef up the entrants?If there is a promoter . . .
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/new-wrc-promoter-coming-as-fia-opens-tender/

[saco0o]

“The FIA World Rally Championship is at an exciting moment in its history. Millions of fans around the world are following the action, and new, younger audiences are driving its global growth"

"1.3 billion cumulative tv audience"

.........ohh then why the promoter is leaving ?ohh..... eeeeeeh..... no, its because.... because.... aaaaaaahnn..... ehhh

[wyler]

It looks like the best we can hope for is Toyota WRC27 Cars vs the existing Rally2 Cars.



i guess m-sport will do a new car, they cannot stay in the market with the decommissioned fiesta...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I have my own idea from what I've heard and read, but can anyone give their understanding of why they're NOT just making Rally2 (or Rally2+) Cars the top Class in 2027 ? By this I mean a car based on a road car shell as currently.

[wyler]

I have my own idea from what I've heard and read, but can anyone give their understanding of why they're NOT just making Rally2 (or Rally2+) Cars the top Class in 2027 ? By this I mean a car based on a road car shell as currently.

i guess for this "tuners" opening, so they don't need a shell, they can buid it themself.

[WRCStan]

I have my own idea from what I've heard and read, but can anyone give their understanding of why they're NOT just making Rally2 (or Rally2+) Cars the top Class in 2027 ? By this I mean a car based on a road car shell as currently.

Do you mean for the whole period or just for one year?

[deephouse]

Why there is still no announcements, Because FIA is too late. Everytime they do something it's too late. Those regs should be fully published years ago. And not throwing only some hints and then negotiate for a 8 months, and then again some hints. How would any team be able to made a good car, especially if that team isn't funded that well as Toyota. And again we hear that they are the only ones that actually started working on a new car. If Mikkelsen is claiming that he is convincing Skoda to join, that only means that they probably will not be here, because they would not wait so long. Probably we will se some new names (really big IF) in 2028 or beyond, and not in 2027 as it's suggested by officials. Right now the series is fragile it could collapse even before it could start well. I'm happy that regs will be somehow open again, but their timeline for decisions is harming this sport really hard. Why mechanics can completely rebuild the car in a few hours which is a hell of a job and those with ties can't decide anything with no deadline at all. All they do is talk for straight 8 hours during their work day. And why does it take 15 years to actually decide anything? I will never understood those offices jobs. No efficiency at all and when there is even that is completely useless.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Do you mean for the whole period or just for one year?

For the whole next period...

[saco0o]

I have my own idea from what I've heard and read, but can anyone give their understanding of why they're NOT just making Rally2 (or Rally2+) Cars the top Class in 2027 ? By this I mean a car based on a road car shell as currently.

if i'm understanding this correctly, the current R5s will be allowed to compete as the top class for the next 10 years while these models are "phased out" by the new wrc27 - so...theres that. "R5s are the new top class", in fact.

it is a sucessful formula, so FIA is kinda keeping that (since all components for the new cars are the same from current R5s), but adding more safety via the tube frame cars.
its going to take some years for the new machines to be MEGA present around europe - and the R5s will still be there anyway.
and they decided this set of rules also thiking about national and regional championships, so theres gotta be more than we know to it. like, did they talked to these national level entities and pro competitors? probably yes (i hope!)

so.... IN A WAY, R5s are the new class. i imagine the new wrc27 will eventually be stronger, for sure. but stuff like road position will still play a part, no? even if we have 40 R5s and 3 WRC27 Toyotas, i dont think Toyota will win every event, no way.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

if i'm understanding this correctly, the current R5s will be allowed to compete as the top class for the next 10 years while these models are "phased out" by the new wrc27 - so...theres that. "R5s are the new top class", in fact.

it is a sucessful formula, so FIA is kinda keeping that (since all components for the new cars are the same from current R5s), but adding more safety via the tube frame cars.
its going to take some years for the new machines to be MEGA present around europe - and the R5s will still be there anyway.
and they decided this set of rules also thiking about national and regional championships, so theres gotta be more than we know to it. like, did they talked to these national level entities and pro competitors? probably yes (i hope!)

so.... IN A WAY, R5s are the new class. i imagine the new wrc27 will eventually be stronger, for sure. but stuff like road position will still play a part, no? even if we have 40 R5s and 3 WRC27 Toyotas, i dont think Toyota will win every event, no way.

Yeah, I know all that and get it.

But I'm asking why they arent continuing with NEW Rally2 cars built as they are now, based on a road car shell ?

Only Toyota has built one recently (and that was easy for them as they had a rally-ready road car in the 4WD GR Yaris). But the likes of M-Sport Ford, Hyundai & Citroen havent built a new Rally2 car and are still hanging on with cars that are 5+ years old and some not even sold any more.

I assume they've spoken to these and other Manufacturer's and they said they cant build a new Rally2 Car with the road cars they now produce, as M-Sport have said with the Puma, because they're not viable for rallying ?

[saco0o]

Yeah, I know all that and get it.
But I'm asking why they arent continuing with NEW Rally2 cars built as they are now, based on a road car shell ?
(...)
I assume they've spoken to these and other Manufacturer's and they said they cant build a new Rally2 Car with the road cars they now produce, as M-Sport have said with the Puma, because they're not viable for rallying ?


yes, i'd go with something along these lines too mate. FIA gotta follow some EU guidelines, right? also cultural shift. im not from europe but from the stuff i read, manufacturers are little by little moving away from ICE Hatchbacks. the new bodyshells are all built with other specifications to acomotade hybrids and batteries - and I dont think manufacturers are completely giving up on autonomous driving too (more computers). and they are mostly SUVs.

so thats probably the reason, yes! (long term stuff too)...and we KNOW rally fans would HATE SUVS lol. even if they were "ICE".
and most are either Hybrid (it didnt worked) or EV (that would be the death of the sport for half of the audience, lets be honest)

plus the whole MORE SAFETY from the new tubeframes that FIA must implement.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Cheers. I'm arguing with that YouTube guy who is totally against the spaceframe car for WRC27 and wants to keep Rally2 cars as the top class.

I said if it was possible they would be, that's an easy answer to it, but it's not because Manufacturers cant use the shells of cars they sell nowadays as they're too big or tall.

[saco0o]

Cheers. I'm arguing with that YouTube guy who is totally against the spaceframe car for WRC27 and wants to keep Rally2 cars as the top class.

I said if it was possible they would be, that's an easy answer to it, but it's not because Manufacturers cant use the shells of cars they sell nowadays as they're too big or tall.

on facebook i saw the same discussions. im jus...i mean, we are all just guessing here, sure. but that seems a plausible argument: next gen of road cars are all suv hybrids or electric. 'do we want huge suvs rallying'?
tho there are crossovers, they are ok. but they are also all hybrids, eh? you are from britain, not sure if the car market is similar over there. here in south america new cars are ALL hybrid SUVs and electric Sedans. more and more are from BYD and that other chinese brand... "Great Wall something something" ? (cool name tbh)
the smaller 'new car' here is the Renegade lol

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's ironic that Toyota, the team with the last new Rally2 Car, are the first (and so far only) ones committed to a new WRC27 Car. Where would the WRC be without them and their rally-fan boss Mr Toyoda ?!

[OldF]

Funny that when they were negotiating which engine to use from 2022 onwards, M-Sport and Hyundai wanted to use a rally2 engine but Toyota wanted to continue with the current rally1 engine, global race engine. Now Toyota is the only one (so far) that has start developing a car with a rally2 engine.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-inside-line-on-wrcs-2022-tech-rules/
“DirtFish: Earlier this year, it was clear the manufacturers were divided over the way forward with the Internal Combustion Engine side of 2022. M-Sport and Hyundai favoured a move to a Rally2 base engine, while Toyota wanted to stick with the current Global Race Engine”:)

I don’t know but I interpret from the interview with Tom Fowler that FIA has developed specs for a “global” rally2 engine. Manufacturers build the engine with the same specs and if someone want to use a production engine they can present that to FIA.

https://rallyjournal.com/major-revelation-from-toyota-boss-core-principles-of-2027-regulations-already-agreed/

4.8.2025
“What I understand is there’s a specific chapter that tells you how to build an engine for the championship. If you want to commit, you follow that chapter – all the information is clearly written down,” Fowler explained.”

“There’s also an appendix that says if a manufacturer or tuner has a different requirement – for a production engine, electrification, or similar – they can present it to the FIA. The regulation could then be adapted to include more people. But as I understand it, no one has made that application, so no extra chapter has been written,” Fowler revealed.”

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Illustration of what a Dacia Sandero built to the WRC27 regulations could look like:

https://rallyjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2025/08/Dacia.jpg

And what will be underneath:

https://rallyjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2025/08/FIA-chassis-wrc27-1.jpg

https://rallyjournal.com/this-is-what-they-look-like-an-illustration-has-already-been-made-of-the-new-rally-world-championship-cars/

[wyler]

Illustration of what a Dacia Sandero built to the WRC27 regulations could look like:

https://rallyjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2025/08/Dacia.jpg



rumours about prodrive x renault '27 as for the dakar
(could be this dacia, an alpine 290, a renault5...)

[240RS]

BYD has revealed new engine designs and systems that may lead to radical changes in what energy will power cars in the near future. With WRC already geared towards new regulations for 2027, could we be headed for a rethink?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUKzqBS9Hec

[wyler]

BYD has revealed new engine designs and systems that may lead to radical changes in what energy will power cars in the near future. With WRC already geared towards new regulations for 2027, could we be headed for a rethink?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUKzqBS9Hec

fowler said the regulations have a section for the engine, but also that if someone wants to use alternatives, fia can add a chapter for it. No one did it at the moment, but it is possible for the future.

[WRCStan]

could we be headed for a rethink?

No.

Forgive me if I didn't see it for skimming, but what change is so radical?

[WRCStan]

No cost cap in the strict sense: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-pledges-wrc-investment-off-the-back-of-promoter-sale/

[Andre Oliveira]

Via Xabi Nicolay

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GzhwgltWgAATTV3?format=jpg&name=medium

[saco0o]

via xabi nicolay

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/gzhwgltwgaattv3?format=jpg&name=medium

hohohohohohoh what!!!!?!??!?! *___*

[wyler]

Via Xabi Nicolay

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GzhwgltWgAATTV3?format=jpg&name=medium

more info? where, driver...anything! : )

[saco0o]

someone on facebook suggesting the shadow under the cars is weird and theres lots of weird pixels around the "logo"
dammit i want to believe

edit: reddit user saying its Camilli driving it?

[wyler]

someone on facebook suggesting the shadow under the cars is weird and theres lots of weird pixels around the lancia logo
dammit i want to believe

looks like there's no logo as the badge looks removed...
can't say anything on the shadow, just that's a picture taken from the preview screen of a camera, not really high def...

[TypeR]

Look like rally3

[wyler]

Look like rally3

too wide wheel arch for a rally3 imho

[WRCStan]

Is the track wide enough? Going off the far B pillar visibility, shouldn't some more tubes be visible like it?

[Steve Boyd]

I can't see any sign of a roll cage in it. Edited image of a road car in my opinion.

[archie106]

No chance that is real, there hasn't been time since the regulations were released to design and build a car. Also why would they test a tarmac car with such a high ride height?

Also there would be no point building a Lancia 'test mule' as they could just use a C3 Rally2 for the initial development.

[Managarium]

Some media from Italy, said that it is a Rally2 Lancia, which will replace C3 Rally2 in 2026.

[wyler]

No chance that is real, there hasn't been time since the regulations were released to design and build a car. Also why would they test a tarmac car with such a high ride height?

Also there would be no point building a Lancia 'test mule' as they could just use a C3 Rally2 for the initial development.

in italy there was rumors already a month ago about crugnola testing a rally2 lancia.
also toyota is working on its 27 car so it is possible.
(doesn't mean that this is real though)

[Andre Oliveira]

Bonato and Crugnola tested the Rally2 mule already. The photo is real too.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So Lancia are making a Rally2 Car rather than a WRC27 Car under the new Regs ?

[wyler]

So Lancia are making a Rally2 Car rather than a WRC27 Car under the new Regs ?

i think they ll decide when the wrc27 regulation is officially defined...in the meanwhile they can use a rally2 mule for the mechanical part they ll use anyway

[WRCStan]

We know they were trying a Rally2 from last year already, but that rear wing is some addition. There was chat that they would launch the car at RIS 2026. Now we know that Rally Italia being moved location and slot adds more interest.

Lancia if you are reading, may I remind you of an old Italian saying; 'fai la cacca o alzati dal vasino'.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Adamo on a WRC podcast said he was healthy again... and on working again, 'never say never'. Maybe he might return with Lancia who he has a history with.

[wyler]

lancia y rally2/2027

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/wgmElW8x-2I

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GzwtJnVW8AAh59t?format=jpg&name=small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GzwtJi_WQAAMnAS?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GzwtJjAWoAAUNmG?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Eli]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GzwtJnVW8AAh59t?format=jpg&name=small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GzwtJi_WQAAMnAS?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GzwtJjAWoAAUNmG?format=jpg&name=900x900

I know it's not the most important thing but are they testing with Michelin tyres?

[TypeR]

It's not the most important thing :D


But as there hasn't been any news in WRC for a very long time, then I would say it classofoes as Breaking News :D :D

[Eli]

It's not the most important thing :D


But as there hasn't been any news in WRC for a very long time, then I would say it classofoes as Breaking News :D :D
Skoda has all gone silent so this is the only hope for ‘27-‘28, and if Hyundai won’t be there we might get to see Toyota vs Lancia all over again…

[wyler]

very different from the one in the leaked photo...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Skoda has all gone silent so this is the only hope for ‘27-‘28, and if Hyundai won’t be there we might get to see Toyota vs Lancia all over again…

Mikkelsen is on the case, trying to persuade Skoda to continue and make a 27 Car.

[denkimi]

I don't think Mikkelsen has any say in whatever Skoda does.

[240RS]

lancia y rally2/2027

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/wgmElW8x-2I

Would be very interested to know the identity of the test driver(s).

[TheFlyingTuga]

Would be very interested to know the identity of the test driver(s).

According to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5JQhqj3Rso&list=WL&index=4&ab_channel=UgoRallye38

It was Bonato

[WRCStan]

According to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5JQhqj3Rso&list=WL&index=4&ab_channel=UgoRallye38

It was Bonato

Also according to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YShOdZRFXsw

[Fast Eddie WRC]

lancia y rally2/2027



Videos all describe the Lancia as Rally2, not WRC27.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I don't think Mikkelsen has any say in whatever Skoda does.

As ERC and 2x WRC2 Champion with Skoda, his encouragement wont do any harm.

I would bet they'll continue as they've been very successful in selling rally cars and their rallying activity gives them a good profile.

[Andre Oliveira]

Impressive. 1 day and nothing on DirtFish. Ok, not Oliver at wheel to make 20 posts...

[Andre Oliveira]

I know it's not the most important thing but are they testing with Michelin tyres?

Hankook today

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lancia rumours getting stronger...

https://rallyjournal.com/big-news-lancia-is-returning-to-the-wrc-testing-already-in-full-swing/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Also from Rallye-Magazine:

Skoda plans to continue producing the petrol Fabia until at least 2031. The Czech company's successful Rally2 model is scheduled to be completely re-homologated by then – which, according to the regulations, is possible every four years.

[Maui J.]

This is probably the most exciting news in the WRC for the last 10 years. Not just the fact that's it's Lancia, but it's actually a new manufacturer joining the party. Lancia managed to keep this very quiet, so hopefully we will start seeing more surprises pop up before the 2027 championship kicks off.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GzyCcKCXAAA8Ol5?format=jpg&name=medium

[WRCStan]

Impressive. 1 day and nothing on DirtFish.

Official launch tomorrow (Wednesday) according to a comment on YT.

[WRCStan]

This is probably the most exciting news in the WRC for the last 10 years. Not just the fact that's it's Lancia, but it's actually a new manufacturer joining the party. Lancia managed to keep this very quiet, so hopefully we will start seeing more surprises pop up before the 2027 championship kicks off.

It depends what they announce if you're hoping for a work's team in the mainclass. This is the wrong thread really for a Rally2 build, might just be as simple as shifting the sales from Citroen to Lancia.

[rallyfiend]

Mikkelsen is on the case, trying to persuade Skoda to continue and make a 27 Car.

He can’t even persuade Skoda to give him a drive, what on earth makes you think he can persuade them on their entire motorsport strategy…?!

[deephouse]

He can’t even persuade Skoda to give him a drive, what on earth makes you think he can persuade them on their entire motorsport strategy…?!

What if he doesn't want that anymore, and want to compete in the main class as 2027 is the ''best'' time to start from beginning. If he would do Rally2 campaign he could be bad and that would certainly kill his career entirely... But on the other side he could be sharp and just drive for mileage, testing, do various things for them, since he drove various Rally1/WRC cars for a long time. But I think they could be persuade if someone from Hyundai squad or even Toyota could step into their office. Maybe Seb and do full season from start.

[Eli]

Took them a while: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/lancia-rally2-car-expected-in-2026/

[Kenneth]

Via Xabi Nicolay

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GzhwgltWgAATTV3?format=jpg&name=medium

So I still wonder what this was supposed to be, because it's completely different than the real Ypsilon Rally2. Is that some mule based on C3? The overall shape and shape of radiator intakes looks like C3.

Someone here said it's real photo, so I'll believe it's not photoshoped (althroug many things point to that). So is it really some kind of mule for 2027?

[pedro16]

So I still wonder what this was supposed to be, because it's completely different than the real Ypsilon Rally2. Is that some mule based on C3? The overall shape and shape of radiator intakes looks like C3.

Someone here said it's real photo, so I'll believe it's not photoshoped (althroug many things point to that). So is it really some kind of mule for 2027?

It was made with AI. The account who posted the image confirmed.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

He can’t even persuade Skoda to give him a drive, what on earth makes you think he can persuade them on their entire motorsport strategy…?!

I was merely referring this interview and his successful connection with Skoda and rally car development experience...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/mikkelsen-trying-to-convince-skoda-to-join-wrc-in-2027/#:~:text=Three%2Dtime%20World%20Rally%20winner,hig her%20vs%20lower'%20leaderboard%20challenge!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Dirtfish delay on covering the Lancia story was due to them being at Rally Paraguay...

https://youtu.be/sP-R8IJhQ8Y?si=4a8lXn-lK93r3gMo

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lancia to replace Citroen pretty much confirmed as the works -supported team:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/lancia-set-to-replace-citroen-as-works-backed-wrc2-team/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR4on-ucxXYh8L9CZXDkm63uFIZLWikLGPs2MkJz_R3BbeVp3ABCu82m PV5F6A_aem_pwqyYi7aLfqtSo44kRg2hQ

[WRCStan]

Lancia topic is more 2026 WRC2 News and Rumours now.

[doubled1978]

Lancia to replace Citroen pretty much confirmed as the works -supported team:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/lancia-set-to-replace-citroen-as-works-backed-wrc2-team/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR4on-ucxXYh8L9CZXDkm63uFIZLWikLGPs2MkJz_R3BbeVp3ABCu82m PV5F6A_aem_pwqyYi7aLfqtSo44kRg2hQ

Let’s see if someone can drag a bit of sponsorship money out of Martini to do the job right!

[PLuto]

Lancia topic is more 2026 WRC2 News and Rumours now.

From beginning it is mainly about Rally2 car. But still there is question how 2027 will looks like in general...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So after they finally settled on a spaceframe chassis to replace Rally1/2/WRX Cars, a candidate for the FIA Presidency wants future rally cars to based on road cars...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-presidential-candidates-production-based-plan-for-rallying/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR6_thJDPLo03Udx6cV4NnG-_hzdUI8tCom4J0eXDY03n0-8KyR8Sb1djrXEDg_aem_Z6vrYFIZVHa_1hr11ewDIw

[WRCStan]

So after they finally settled on a spaceframe chassis to replace Rally1/2/WRX Cars, a candidate for the FIA Presidency wants future rally cars to based on road cars...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-presidential-candidates-production-based-plan-for-rallying/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR6_thJDPLo03Udx6cV4NnG-_hzdUI8tCom4J0eXDY03n0-8KyR8Sb1djrXEDg_aem_Z6vrYFIZVHa_1hr11ewDIw

He's talking about national rallying not WRC. Not worth a comparison or conflation.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

He's talking about national rallying not WRC. Not worth a comparison or conflation.

True and semingly for national rallies outside Europe.

Although even here (UK) many people at this level are still using old Subaru's and Evos. But apart from the recent GR Yaris no-one has a 4WD car homologated, so he has a point.

[WRCStan]

I'm not understanding what point he has, or the article, and regs of national rallying is not an FIA matter. Sounds like he's wanting to be saying the right things.

He wants to return to production-based cars at national level, even though they already are, but he needs to look at what he can do about power trains and construction of the cars. So which is it: hands on or hands off?

CODASUR and Africa already accommodate local cars outside of R1, R2, R5, if he wants to make a global regs set he'd probably face opposition in Europe.

Was his point that he wants manufacturers to build more cars like they used to and go through his homologation process? Good luck buddy!

And I'll add, on topic, that there's no real evidence that a series-production based shell chassis fitted with roll cage will be any cheaper than a tube chassis with cell once scaled to the potential market that's available.

IMO it's all noise and no signal.

[Sulland]

Have the final rules been sent to possible manufacturers yet?

If so have anyone signed up yet?

27 is not that far away....

[flat_right]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-considering-running-a-rally2-car-in-2027/

“Unfortunately, 2027 is a train that has left the station already,” said Abiteboul. “Coming in 2027 with a new car, according to the new regulation, no, that’s not going to happen. What can still happen is that we, like many other manufacturers, will have a Rally2 car.”

Does anyone know if M-sport is building a WRC27 car? If not, we could have a one team show. Nothing different from the current situation though...

[TypeR]

hyundai has been whining-wasting its own time away..
I'm quite sure M-Sport figures something out, it's their business..

[PLuto]

There are still no final regulations for 2027. So teams has issues to develop anything. Currently only one who is working on some prototypes (and still waiting for final regulations) is Toyota.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I expect that M-Sport will be able to build a 2027 Car. Rallying is their business and they'll need to replace the old Rally2 Fiesta with something.

[deephouse]

Hyundai would wine even if they immediately say Rally2 spec cars will be main category. They already decided what will they do, and we all know what this will be. They just want to find as many excuses not to continue.

I have a feeling (and had it before) that FIA is delaying their final 2027 regulations just to justify their intentions to adapt Rally2 spec for the main category, as it seems only Toyota is interested or at least is working on new car. Of course that will not be enough and then they will cancel 2027 wrc cars even before they will be made. And what will they be left then, other than Rally2 cars. I think they will not delay 2027 regulations into 2028, because no one will guarantee it will be there for 2027.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hyundai would wine even if they immediately say Rally2 spec cars will be main category. They already decided what will they do, and we all know what this will be. They just want to find as many excuses not to continue.

I have a feeling (and had it before) that FIA is delaying their final 2027 regulations just to justify their intentions to adapt Rally2 spec for the main category, as it seems only Toyota is interested or at least is working on new car. Of course that will not be enough and then they will cancel 2027 wrc cars even before they will be made. And what will they be left then, other than Rally2 cars. I think they will not delay 2027 regulations into 2028, because no one will guarantee it will be there for 2027.

This is possible, but its just not a long-term solution unless other new manufacturers can find a suitable car they are happy to use and promote.

Lancia have built a Rally2 and will use it as a promo tool with their rally heritage, even though their Ypsilon HF road car is an EV.

Who else can do this ? Even Ford have said the Puma is unsuitable as a Rally2 (plus their road car is also going EV)...

[denkimi]

Hyundai would wine even if they immediately say Rally2 spec cars will be main category. They already decided what will they do, and we all know what this will be. They just want to find as many excuses not to continue.
Just like they quit in 2025, 2024, 2023, 2022 en every year before if this forum was to believe.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

How the FIA plans to ensure a fair WRC27 v Rally2 battle

Responding to the concerns raised by Abiteboul regarding parity between the WRC27 and Rally2 cars, FIA technical director Xavier Mestelen Pinon reiterated that the two regulations will be able to work alongside each other with little differences between the two cars.

But the FIA is adamant that the WRC will not run a Balance of Performance system similar to that in World Endurance Championship.

“We are doing it well in WEC [World Endurance Championship] so it is easy to do it. In WEC we use power and weight, here we would use weight,” said Mestelen Pinon in a media round table.

“If we start to talk about Balance of Performance, it will kill our championship. We need [to] avoid that discussion. At the end the two regulations will allow each manufacturer to reach the same level of performance.

“We will speak about performance regarding downforce, weight to power ratio. We know there will be this kind of difference, but at the end we will refine the technical regulations so that both cars will be as close as possible this is our target.”

[WRCfi]

https://www.mtvuutiset.fi/artikkeli/mm-rallipomolta-murheellinen-uutispommi-mtv-n-lahetyksessa-emme-tule-olemaan-valmiina/9241474

Wilson says M-Sport will not have their WRC27 car ready by 2027.

"Whatever happens we will not be ready for 2027, beceause we haven't even started on the project."

[Fast Eddie WRC]

WRC2027 is in tatters before the Regs are even finalised and announced.

[deephouse]

More and more seems it will be like I said

[WRCStan]

WRC2027 is in tatters before the Regs are even finalised and announced.

2027 season is, but always was. The car reg has time.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Looks like WRC 2027 will be Rally2 Toyota vs Lancia (factory), vs any older cars for privateers (Fabia, Fiesta, C3, i20).

Hyundai and M-Sport (Ford) will be gone, having no suitable road car or being EV-only.

I dont see any point in Toyota continuing with their spaceframe car.

[WRCStan]

Fast Cyril, look beyond 2027 to when the new car is out on it's own. Rally2 is not the main class future else it would have been decided at several times they had this conversation over the years. Toyota can see this future.

M-Sport have no business case to build the new car for season 2027 manufacturers when the Fiesta can be made available to do the same job, no need to panic. When taking the Rally2s out of the class, manufacturers championship or of homologation, they then have customers. No panic.

Lancia didn't need a Rally4 but they absorbed that from Peugeot and Opel, so the Rally2 could just be the same operation to bring rally under one marque to strengthen it, so possible yet they have a WRC2027 too for 2027 - IF they are to take this game seriously for the long term, which is beginning to look more and more so.

CC at Dirtfish said Dacia is a rumour too, they've been happy with T1 ultimates and don't have a Rally2, so they're a possibility with Prodrive. Maybe one of the 'interersted tuners'.

Hyundai don't know what they're doing or what their brand is from one day to the next. Nothing to do with rally car regulations, EVs etc.

[saco0o]

2027 = loads of R5s vs Oli Solberg in the new toyota wr27 hehe
IM IN

[Kras]

Looks like WRC 2027 will be Rally2 Toyota vs Lancia (factory), vs any older cars for privateers (Fabia, Fiesta, C3, i20).

Hyundai and M-Sport (Ford) will be gone, having no suitable road car or being EV-only.

I dont see any point in Toyota continuing with their spaceframe car.

Where do you get this idea that Hyundai will have no suitable road car? They were testing a petrol 2026 i20 a few months ago

[deephouse]

Total disaster from FIA to not finalize this regs already (and should do it a year or two ago, not still discussing). If thing will not be decided soon and I mean in a few days, not as their usual timeline (months), they will no have other choice than postpone it to 2028 or go Rally2. I don't see a point running Toyota WRC27 against Rally2 cars, probably only Lancia in manufacture backed car (big if).

As it stands Hyundai will not even start making new car, and now M-Sport saying they will not be ready.

I'm not a fan for Rally2 car become the main category, but I'm not a fan also having no champiosnhip at all, as it seems FIA is doing everything to kill it. Right now I honestly have a wish, that they would sell the series to someone, who can and know how to run things and they could focus on their stupid meetings without WRC. Sorry, but I really start hating that stupid organization.

What I still hope, that out of nowhere we will have multiple teams and current (also some new) drivers at the start of 2027 WRC season, no matter what they will be running and driving, but I'm more and more sceptical that this will not be case.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Fast Cyril, look beyond 2027 to when the new car is out on it's own. Rally2 is not the main class future else it would have been decided at several times they had this conversation over the years. Toyota can see this future.

M-Sport have no business case to build the new car for season 2027 manufacturers when the Fiesta can be made available to do the same job, no need to panic. When taking the Rally2s out of the class, manufacturers championship or of homologation, they then have customers. No panic.

Lancia didn't need a Rally4 but they absorbed that from Peugeot and Opel, so the Rally2 could just be the same operation to bring rally under one marque to strengthen it, so possible yet they have a WRC2027 too for 2027 - IF they are to take this game seriously for the long term, which is beginning to look more and more so.

CC at Dirtfish said Dacia is a rumour too, they've been happy with T1 ultimates and don't have a Rally2, so they're a possibility with Prodrive. Maybe one of the 'interersted tuners'.

Hyundai don't know what they're doing or what their brand is from one day to the next. Nothing to do with rally car regulations, EVs etc.

I've been following and agreeing with this narrative until now.

But this weeks news that even Hyundai and M-Sport aren't going to have a WRC27 Car, plus Lancia confirming a new Rally2 Car, the idea of the new spaceframe cars for 2027 just isnt happening.

[WRCStan]

There was a crossover from Groups 1-4 to NAB, Group A/kit car to WRC, WRC 2.0 to WRC 1.6/R via S2000 featuring teams to ensure the championship survives. It'll be like this. I don't follow the 'everything must be perfect and published 2 years in advance' theory. And if there aren't any new cars in 2027, or even after, at least the option was there. Nothing to gain from hitting the FIA rally dept here IMO.

Even John is still whacking them to cancel the new car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSzR-1MdqPU but unfortunately for a man with a YT channel and audience, he's still talking like this is sport and not a motorsport series. He doesn't consider what he might prevent and nobody seems to consider that there must be a reason they invest and proceed down this path, and the fallacy that all information is already public extends to posters in this forum.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I get what your saying and have been in agreement but for the foreseeable future there seems little chance of spaceframe cars happening.

As well as 2/3 of the existing WRC Manufacturers ruling out building one, there's also the complication of making a level playing field for both Cars which will be needed before anyone will commit to running them.

Without more than one Manufacturer (or Tuner) on board to make a spaceframe car, the future has to be Rally2 cars for the next homologation cycle.

[WRCStan]

M-Sport didn't rule it out, and they pushed for it. Toyota's is in the works. Promoter will ensure and insure it happens. It'll happen, there's no alternative. Just maybe not ubiquitous as soon as 2027 like we'd all like to see.

Doubt there's any complication in creating a level playing field, they're very similar and tbh, probably no demand to create fairness. Also don't lose sight of that they're not actively looking for Rally2 manufacturer entrants, just more cars in the 'mainclass'.

[denkimi]

Maybe we should embrace having just one manufacturer. Nothing levels the field more than everyone having the same car.

[flat_right]

Maybe we should embrace having just one manufacturer. Nothing levels the field more than everyone having the same car.

Well if all top dogs would get the same car, I wouldn't mind watching this one season like this.

[deephouse]

Toyota says that they need some challenge too to justify their programme, so if nobody will be there, they will not participate either. The only thing that this would work if some non-manufacturer would build car and all manufacturers would put their badge on it, but let's not get into that, as it's the worst idea.

[Andre Oliveira]

Why not use the travesti Mazda 2 to second team?

Team 1 with GR Yaris
Team 2 with Mazda 2

[deephouse]

Subaru actually are working on few new STi models, one of them will be hatchback. And what would the best way to promote it than WRC.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport didn't rule it out, and they pushed for it. Toyota's is in the works. Promoter will ensure and insure it happens. It'll happen, there's no alternative. Just maybe not ubiquitous as soon as 2027 like we'd all like to see.

Doubt there's any complication in creating a level playing field, they're very similar and tbh, probably no demand to create fairness. Also don't lose sight of that they're not actively looking for Rally2 manufacturer entrants, just more cars in the 'mainclass'.

M-Sport should be saying much more if they're fully onboard with WRC27. But MW saying they haven't even started and are concerned about the costs isnt a good sign.

On the level playing field, who will join unless they know what they'll be using will be competitive ? As the FIA are behind the new WRC27 Cars they wont want current Rally2 cars beating them...

[wyler]

the plan is to have an erc like series as top level for the very next years, then who knows. the reg for this transition is vaguely on. 27 will be mostly a semi private rally2 championship, then in some years wrc27 will appear when rally2 will have to be renewed. in the meantime, the new reg is open enough to fit any automotive industry change, be it real ev, hydrogen or other, also flexible enough to have some private team (tuners) to keep the thing alive till better times.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's a complete dog's breakfast at the moment. I dont know how anyone could commit to running a car in WRC beyond 2026 with so much uncertainty and confusion.

[AndersX]

Entire car industry is lost with rushed EV investments, that still are too little compare to State subsidized China EV battery manuf rapid expansion. Traditional car manufacturers might be trapped in the corner now. EVs do not work for motorsport, but ICE cars are fading out - what to do? In the moments like this you need clear policy, support, vision of the FIA. But i do not see it and I am in the doubt that MBS is visionary enough to have a brave plan. We are clearly heading to one big fat Reset of the Road Rally sport for coming 2-5 years. But, look from the bright side - if the bunch of privateers would go nuts in 2027 and 2028, that would be a proper spectacle. 😀

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Developing a brand new car to compete under the World Rally Championship’s new 2027 technical regulations remains the priority for M-Sport , rather than upgrading its Rally2 car.

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-prefers-new-wrc-car-build-over-upgraded-rally2-option-for-2027/10769883/

[1988senna]

Any reliable sources now mention that Skoda, Lancia, MSport,Hyundai will confirm to join 2027 group one??

[WRCStan]

Developing a brand new car to compete under the World Rally Championship’s new 2027 technical regulations remains the priority for M-Sport , rather than upgrading its Rally2 car.

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-prefers-new-wrc-car-build-over-upgraded-rally2-option-for-2027/10769883/

"“Why would we waste a year trying to up spec our Rally2 car and then do a new car? It is only Toyota there for the first half of the year"

Ring the rumour bell, what's the context here?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

"“Why would we waste a year trying to up spec our Rally2 car and then do a new car? It is only Toyota there for the first half of the year"

Ring the rumour bell, what's the context here?

Is he suggesting M-Sport wont have their car ready until mid-2027, as they wont start on it until the new Regs are signed off ?

[PLuto]

Any reliable sources now mention that Skoda, Lancia, MSport,Hyundai will confirm to join 2027 group one??

Only one currently developing something like Rally1 car is Toyota. Despite regulations are not finalised yet. Other mentioned manufacturers are not developing car according to the new regulations. And they are also not so much interested in Rally2 with bigger aero and restrictor...

[dck1989]

One can only dream that Subaru will one day be back in the top level of rallying...perfect sized car ready to go.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQYiVkqj7lt/

[WRCStan]

Can somebody with a YT account drop a comment to Jon, poor chap is confused and spreading fake news https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQKdoIA8yPI

a) M-Sport did not rule out building a 2027 car, they ruled it out for the 2027 season and that decision has very little to do with Ford. They are all in on the 2027 car.

b) Top class ≠ manufacturer's championship. Rally2 is already top class for 2027. There's no need to switch to Rally2 for 2027 (https://youtu.be/lQKdoIA8yPI?t=475) to get more makes in the top class. Switching to only Rally2 is not going to make manufacturers any more willing, that's a commercial matter not costs nor technical, and it isn't a makes championship. Manufacturer participation is key to a manufacturers championship, the clue is in the name. Unless there are interested participating manufacturers, there will still only be Toyota as *willing* manufacturer and they've said yes please to space frames. Yes, opening up to Rally2 will see options for which other manufacturers the promoter can support to an invite to field a team, and that's why they're doing it, and I know a fan would see that as a boon for Rally2, but in reality it isn't a good idea to expect Toyota to pay for everything whilst you also tell them to piss off.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I think he knows all that but wanted to make a video to air his opinion and titled it to get views and comments.

His main serious point is that the spaceframe cars should be delayed until at least 2028 when everything has been finalised in terms of Regs, Manufacturer/ Tuners commitment, balance of performance being confirmed and the direction from the new Promoter.

Having just Toyota with a WRC27 Car isnt going to be fair or viable for the Championship

[deephouse]

He also says that Toyota almost have a prototype WRC27 car READY. That's HUGE. I can't find it anywhere on the web.

Even if FIA would delay new regulations until 2028, Toyota would still have advantage, since they already doing their job. What is concerning if FIA will not move their asses soon, it could end with only Rally2 cars available, and even then it's not guaranteed anybody would be on the start list besides privateers. It could mean that if they would scrap regulations, that even Toyota could give them middle finger and walk away (throwing their hard work and money into toilet). That would mean that championship would DIE instantly. So it's crazy situation that nobody can predict for sure, what will happen.

[WRCStan]

I think he knows all that but wanted to make a video to air his opinion and titled it to get views and comments.

His main serious point is that the spaceframe cars should be delayed until at least 2028 when everything has been finalised in terms of Regs, Manufacturer/ Tuners commitment, balance of performance being confirmed and the direction from the new Promoter.

Having just Toyota with a WRC27 Car isnt going to be fair or viable for the Championship

Toyota are the only force making the championship viable. Fairness is a fan's mental construct.

He's also dead against spaceframes existing at all at any point.

[WRCStan]

He also says that Toyota almost have a prototype WRC27 car READY. That's HUGE. I can't find it anywhere on the web.

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/wrc/artikel/wrc-2027-auf-welches-auto-setzt-toyota/

Almost being a key word

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota are the only force making the championship viable. Fairness is a fan's mental construct.

He's also dead against spaceframes existing at all at any point.

Toyota aren't at fault, but being the sole WRC27 maker doesn't work.. The fans view matters if they dont accept a one-sided Championship.

Jon is entitled to his opinion and many agree with him. Spaceframe chassis hasnt worked in Rally1, attracting no new Manufacturers.

[AndyRAC]

Jon is far more knowledgeable than the majority here.......

[WRCStan]

Jon is entitled to his opinion and many agree with him.

Absolutely, I'm only calling him out on the demonstrably false statements and I'm allowed to disagree with anybody's opinions and I enjoy discussing it too. He is knowledgeable and passionate and that's why I watch his channel, but he never considers the commercial side of things, just like a lot of people here - it's just always "look at what great egalitarian sport we have with Rally2" with no Socratic thought.


Spaceframe chassis hasnt worked in Rally1, attracting no new Manufacturers.

Spaceframe has worked in Rally1, if you reconsider that it didn't have a sole purpose to attract manufacturers. We're all still watching but I can't comment on safety, reliability or costs.

As yet, Rally2 hasn't demonstrably attracted new manufacturers for 2027 either. Skoda said nothing! And I'll say this for the nth time and put it in bold before I get a reply, and this applies to Lancia: Attracting MANUFACTURERS is a commercial matter primarily, not a technical matter. Opening up to Rally2 permits more MAKES in the top class, not entries into the MANUFACTURERS championship. You've still got to sign those makes up, and this is the only thing that is pausing M-Sport commitment to WRC2027 and they already have a Rally2 car!

The FIA and current promoter say no to Rally2. As the new incoming promoter, can all the Rally2 fans tell me how they are going to put on shows all around the world and pay for it with All Live and which MANUFACTURERS and or MAKES they will have attracted, etc. I don't think they can because they never have considered it. Maybe I should start a thread for this.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

You cant ask that as Rally2 hasn't been the top class, so current or new Manufacturers haven't entered as Teams. They just make and homologate their cars and let private teams buy and run them.

And going forward to 2027, Rally2 cars will be able to enter the top class but why would their Manufacturer enter as a Team until they know their car will have an equal chance vs a WRC27 Car ? This goes for existing makers like Skoda as well as any new ones thinking of joining.

And yes, attracting new Manufacturers was the main aim of the new spaceframe Rally1 change.

[saco0o]

its a fun discussion but in my mind i'm very excited and only thinking about how many R5s are going to be in the events and how different the podiums and top10 are going to be in each round. thats it lol

[WRCStan]

It's a perfectly fair question. If you lobby for something you must care for and understand the consequences of what you are lobbying for? Especially for Jon where he is selling merch promoting the cause.

Everybody is panicking because nobody announced a WRC2027 car for 2027, yet nobody with a current Rally2 announced for 2027. Everything about power and drive will be equal, so I think that is about as fair and logical comparison as comparing a Rally2 Yaris with a Rally2 Ypsilon. Where are you expecting significant performance gaps - assuming there's no silent preferential treatment shown towards Toyota?

Rally1 was built to fit the hybrid system and safety cage else it needn't have been done. And WRC+ didn't even attract new manufacturers, neither did S-2000 WRC.

[WRCStan]

its a fun discussion but in my mind i'm very excited and only thinking about how many R5s are going to be in the events and how different the podiums and top10 are going to be in each round. thats it lol

So why do you need a series of events forming a championship? ;)

[doubled1978]

I think we need to wait until the commercial deal gets done and what the vision of the series after that is before we all get bent out shape. I think whatever happens 2027 is going to be stop gap year, but it has happened before and I’m sure it will be ok in the end. Even 1997 with the WRC rules, only Subaru were ready, Ford had half a car, Mitsubishi carried on with Group A, Toyota came in half way through the season with the Corolla. So long as the WRC2027 car isn’t allowed to be miles faster than Rally2 cars, then it is what it is. Let’s not forget, Toyota have only been beaten once this season anyway, so if they dominate 2027 it won’t be much change.

[saco0o]

So why do you need a series of events forming a championship? ;)

hmmmmm interesting point.
the answer would probably be something like: because of the whole "cultural" + "emotional" + "psychological" """weight"" of a world championship, maybe? the fun in following a long global championship during the whole year with a proper end point while chatting with some cool fellas during the year on the internet haha
....weird answer, i know.

idk, i meant that im going with this idea about 2027... it will be fun because more racers will be around because its easier to find richier racers with R5s out there ready to try their luck in a big world championship event. thats the dream, right?
"I got a podium in the world championship, whoooa"

i guess thinking stuff like this made me relax a little bit about 2027. i was more worried and chatty about whats would happen - which is fine cuz I like to talk about stuff like that -but now im more relaxed (in some way)

[saco0o]

I think we need to wait until the commercial deal gets done and what the vision of the series after that is before we all get bent out shape. I think whatever happens 2027 is going to be stop gap year, but it has happened before and I’m sure it will be ok in the end. Even 1997 with the WRC rules, only Subaru were ready, Ford had half a car, Mitsubishi carried on with Group A, Toyota came in half way through the season with the Corolla. So long as the WRC2027 car isn’t allowed to be miles faster than Rally2 cars, then it is what it is. Let’s not forget, Toyota have only been beaten once this season anyway, so if they dominate 2027 it won’t be much change.

i remembered WEC having those 2 crappy years before things getting in place. maybe we are getting WRC into this moment?
well, its better than worst moments in recent years like when wtcc died and became this weird souless tcr world series or world rx that just died. its just euroRX from now on with one world cup race or something like that.

[doubled1978]

i remembered WEC having those 2 crappy years before things getting in place. maybe we are getting WRC into this moment?
well, its better than worst moments in recent years like when wtcc died and became this weird souless tcr world series or world rx that just died. its just euroRX from now on with one world cup race or something like that.

Exactly, the WEC only had Toyota ready for Hypercar in the beginning, but look where they are now. The regulations were good, not perfect, but substantially cheaper than LMP1 and the manufactures got onboard and more are coming, Genesis next year, Ford and McLaren in 2027 and remember they have two car types competing against each other Hypercar and LMDh.
I think ultimately the WRC2027 idea is a good one, let’s see how it develops over the next few years and don’t be too quick to bin it before it has a chance.

[deephouse]

The only thing in WRC that got attraction is where events would be held. Apparently countries are fighting for spots. Funny, right?

What if no one is actually buying the WRC promoter's rights?

The WRC is unstable for many years already, but seems that 2027 could be even worse, and FIA is not making it any easier.

Jon did mention one thing, that FIA should beg manufacturers on their knees to promote their brand in WRC, and especially mention Subaru, since they are announcing new STi models. Chinese brands, those who are already here... Also discussing so long and still not finalize things yet is like they are spinning in circles with no real outcome.

What is worrying is not that the WRC could sragnate for year or a two. But to bring some challenge until the series will fix itself (because FIA apparently can't and will never do it), so even Toyota will not consider leaving it.

[WRCStan]

What if no one is actually buying the WRC promoter's rights?

I don't panic about this, there's two things going on. The current WRC Promoter GmbH deal expires in 2033, so the FIA begun the tender for whoever will run it after. Meanwhile WRC Promoter GmbH was put up for sale, which is the rights until 2032. Any purchaser would also have to tender for the new deal too else their purchase vanishes.

I'm no expert but $500m for only 7 years of rights seems a bit much to me. It's like when people used to sell pet rocks on eBay, see if there's an idiot out there willing to buy. They likely listed it because they knew the tender process was upcoming, so I'm not sure if it's clear WRC Promoter won't apply again for the next (20) years.

[saco0o]

it must be such a hard job to be a rallying chapionship promoter especially because of the competition's format (3 days, mornings and afternoons)
i confess im more of a "gimme a 40 min highlight at the end of the event" type of fan tbh. i tried following the all live thing for a while some good years ago but its just too much for me.
its awesome to have this for the fans that like to watch everything but at the same time i feel it may be 'too expensive' for the size of wrc. i doubt a new promoter would keep up with that. thoughts on that?

there was a time when wrc would post on youtube stuff from the morning/afternoon loops each day, remember that? it was interesting too. then redbull did the 30 min daily highlights, that was my favorite for a while, but eventually i got tired... the full event highlight became my spot.

[typhoon]

it must be such a hard job to be a rallying chapionship promoter especially because of the competition's format (3 days, mornings and afternoons)
i confess im more of a "gimme a 40 min highlight at the end of the event" type of fan tbh. i tried following the all live thing for a while some good years ago but its just too much for me.
its awesome to have this for the fans that like to watch everything but at the same time i feel it may be 'too expensive' for the size of wrc. i doubt a new promoter would keep up with that. thoughts on that?

there was a time when wrc would post on youtube stuff from the morning/afternoon loops each day, remember that? it was interesting too. then redbull did the 30 min daily highlights, that was my favorite for a while, but eventually i got tired... the full event highlight became my spot.

Any global sport needs to push on live content, because that's what pay-tv asks, they have multiple sports channels (think about TNT Sport) in their packages that needs to be filled with contents.

A free-to-air network usually goes for highlights, because they're interested into showing that specific sport, but in a wider offer that offers also other stuff (documentaries, movies, other sports, etc).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lappi backs Rally2 / Rally2+ Cars for 2027, otherwise there wont be a Championship at all (with only Toyota)...

https://rallyjournal.com/a-really-bleak-prediction-from-esapekka-lappi-about-the-future-of-the-world-rally-championship/

[skarderud]

A norwegian podcast said that Petter Solberg aiming for a subaru-team in co-operation with toyota after wishes from mr. Toyoda.

Lets hope its anything in it.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[rallyfiend]

A norwegian podcast said that Petter Solberg aiming for a subaru-team in co-operation with toyota after wishes from mr. Toyoda.

Lets hope its anything in it.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

Petter seems to have been the person that put Subaru off the last time. Not sure they would go back to him again.....

Not to mention that allegedly Petter isn't even allowed in the Toyota team area (as he wasn't in Hyundai too...) because he just hangs about too much, trying for too much input and irritating people. Might be time for Mummy and Daddy to stay home more often

[TypeR]

Rumours are rumours..
Don't know other rallies, but for example Solberg was in Toyota service park/vip area the whole time on Rally Estonia.. friend got to speak couple of words with him and even take a selfie-photo..


Solberg won the last title for Subaru..

E: I meant ,,banned from everywhere'' rumour

[Kenneth]

That's also not really a new rumors. When Solberg built new facilities in Torsby in 23, he told a Swedish radio that the facilities are for future WRC factory team. Plus there were some rumors about Subaru and Solberg from time to time.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

A Norwegian podcast said that Petter Solberg aiming for a subaru-team in co-operation with toyota after wishes from mr. Toyoda.

Lets hope its anything in it.



More possible under the 2027 Regs I guess as the Cars will be significantly less expensive than the last WRC & Rally1 Cars.

And Toyoda-San does want competition in WRC or any Toyota success doesn't mean so much.

[deephouse]

So we can start guessing... Tanak, Solberg and Paddon in Subaru team in 2027 🙈

[WRCStan]

A norwegian podcast said that Petter Solberg aiming for a subaru-team in co-operation with toyota after wishes from mr. Toyoda.

Subaru bodywork, Toyota chassis and engine? What else needs "co-operation with Toyota"?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.subaru.co.jp/en/alliance/

[WRCStan]

https://www.subaru.co.jp/en/alliance/

??

[Fast Eddie WRC]

??

Just showing how close Toyota and Subaru are.

[giu canbera]

Want to ask FIA something? LoL DirtFish is on IT
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/ask-the-fia-your-wrc-questions/
(If you manage to ask them something in less words than 2009 twitter)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Facebook Rumour:

There might be 9 projects in development for 2027/2028:

Hyundai: Expected to continue, perhaps with an evolved Rally2 in 2027 before WRC27.

Toyota: Seen as the only "certain" manufacturer ready for 2027.

Lancia: Starting in Rally2 in 2026, with plans for WRC27 in 2028.

Skoda: Developing its WRC27.

Subaru: The rumor of another Japanese giant's return is gaining strength!

Others: Projects from Prodrive, M-Sport Poland and other "tuners", are on the table.

[deephouse]

Wow

[PLuto]

Facebook Rumour:

There might be 9 projects in development for 2027/2028:

Hyundai: Expected to continue, perhaps with an evolved Rally2 in 2027 before WRC27.

Toyota: Seen as the only "certain" manufacturer ready for 2027.

Lancia: Starting in Rally2 in 2026, with plans for WRC27 in 2028.

Skoda: Developing its WRC27.

Subaru: The rumor of another Japanese giant's return is gaining strength!

Others: Projects from Prodrive, M-Sport Poland and other "tuners", are on the table.

Too optimistic...

[deephouse]

I don't know why it's so hard to in WRC world just to tell, when in other sports there is usually no problem telling stuff like, manufacturer making plans to enter, who they sign, or what are intentions. Here everything is wrapped in bubbles and announced at the last possible times

[giu canbera]

I don't know why it's so hard to in WRC world just to tell, when in other sports there is usually no problem telling stuff like, manufacturer making plans to enter, who they sign, or what are intentions. Here everything is wrapped in bubbles and announced at the last possible times

WRC is not that big anymore for constant news and announcements and expectations (tho DirtFish tries really hard)
And manufacturers are not that interested anymore too so we are left with "someone who knows a Skoda mechanic saying the board is talking about a possible new car for 27-28" - Which may be true and that would be awesome. Hoping for the best! 2027 is going to be very decent if you ask me, just for the fact that "anyone can enter an R5". Not the favorite aspect of it around here but its what we can hope for from now on!

[WRCStan]

I don't know why it's so hard to in WRC world just to tell

To be fair, they'd wait until the new Promoter was in place before signing deals.

[becher]

Facebook Rumour:

There might be 9 projects in development for 2027/2028:

Hyundai: Expected to continue, perhaps with an evolved Rally2 in 2027 before WRC27.

Toyota: Seen as the only "certain" manufacturer ready for 2027.

Lancia: Starting in Rally2 in 2026, with plans for WRC27 in 2028.

Skoda: Developing its WRC27.

Subaru: The rumor of another Japanese giant's return is gaining strength!

Others: Projects from Prodrive, M-Sport Poland and other "tuners", are on the table.

I've seen that and every time someone mentiones Subaru without any profound backing but rather because they are a fanboy or want to appease to the army of obnoxious fanboys, they immediately loose any credibility.

[skarderud]

I've seen that and every time someone mentiones Subaru without any profound backing but rather because they are a fanboy or want to appease to the army of obnoxious fanboys, they immediately loose any credibility.Yeah, lets kill all the fun in a forum for fans....

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[becher]

Yeah, lets kill all the fun in a forum for fans....

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

If constantly making up the same story is your idea of fun so be it. I'm just tired of it.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If constantly making up the same story is your idea of fun so be it. I'm just tired of it.

It was just one of the many rumours and no more than that. Chill.

[deephouse]

It's only a rumours, but on the other hand it doesn't make any sense being so confident go that way for WRC27 ruleset, if there isn't any serious interest at the table, but they keep it completely quiet for some weird reason, probably doesn't want to be us fans too happy (joke) 🤣 this sport gives us so many false hopes, dreams and scenarios already through years that we honestly doesn't believe anything until it's confirmed officialy. What I hope there will NOT ever be a point where the series will die and certainly doesn't want that FIA will be the one to kill it as seems they are doing this quite well right now.

[Sal yet again]

At this stage appreciate that its important that the ruleset is clarified etc however honestly believe the biggest challenge the sport is facing is the onboarding of a new promoter. Personally I think that this is where the sport live or dies and it wont matter if we have 2.5 or 7 manufacturer/tuner teams signed up. If the format is stale and we get more of the same as the current incumbent then it could be very bad. The FIA and Dusty have a great opportunity to breath new life into the WRC lets hope they seize it.

[Sal yet again]

Double post

[rallyfiend]

Isn’t it just the existing company for sale?

So the same organisation just with a new owner?

[skarderud]

If constantly making up the same story is your idea of fun so be it. I'm just tired of it.I would sugest something else then.

The subaru-rumour is old, but kind of new this time, its from a norwegian rallypodcast i know have made podcasts from solbergs workshop, and petter has build a big new workshop he has said is preparations for a future worksteam.

Mr. Toyoda also has said in interviues that he want subaru back.

Noone of us know at this stage if its something in it, but it has to be said it would be sad if they present a comeback in short time and noone want to disquss it because some dude is butthurt.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[pedro16]

And the new Performance-B STI Concept shown in Tokyo adds fuel to the fire.

[becher]

I would sugest something else then.

The subaru-rumour is old, but kind of new this time, its from a norwegian rallypodcast i know have made podcasts from solbergs workshop, and petter has build a big new workshop he has said is preparations for a future worksteam.

Mr. Toyoda also has said in interviues that he want subaru back.

Noone of us know at this stage if its something in it, but it has to be said it would be sad if they present a comeback in short time and noone want to disquss it because some dude is butthurt.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk
Ah very constructive answer...

In all seriousness, the Solberg workshop being built was mentioned long ago already and the quote of Toyoda encouraging Subaru to enter happened what? One year ago?

When Toyoda started talking about Subaru it was something worth noting as Toyota is involved with Subaru but nothing came of it. I' m more than happy to talk about future entrants to the WRC, but when the eightiest person on the internet mentions that Subaru is maybe entering without any basis other than "blue cars cool" it get's annoying.

Maybe don't be butthurt if other people don't enjoy the same things as you, it makes life much more enjoyable.

[1988senna]

If the upgrade rally2 car can win wrc27 now , why that can't happen in 2027, imagine this will take place

Toyota wrc27
Hyundai upgrade rally2
MSport wrc27
Lancia wrc27
Toksport WRT Skoda upgrade rally2
PH Sport Citroën upgrade rally2
Peter Solberg WRT subaru upgrade rally2

other private drivers original rally2


no matter how the total entry numbers will increase

[Fast Eddie WRC]

A Subaru (bodywork) car with the Toyota WRC27 chassis underneath could be a way of increasing the number of WRC27 Teams/Cars for the first year while others, ike M-Sport, catch up.

[wyler]

If the upgrade rally2 car can win wrc27 now , why that can't happen in 2027, imagine this will take place

Toyota wrc27
Hyundai upgrade rally2
MSport wrc27
Lancia wrc27
Toksport WRT Skoda upgrade rally2
PH Sport Citroën upgrade rally2
Peter Solberg WRT subaru upgrade rally2

other private drivers original rally2


no matter how the total entry numbers will increase

lancia and ph sport will be pretty much the same thing...so no citroen

[WRCStan]

If the upgrade rally2 car can win wrc27 now , why that can't happen in 2027, imagine this will take place

Toyota wrc27
Hyundai upgrade rally2
MSport wrc27
Lancia wrc27
Toksport WRT Skoda upgrade rally2
PH Sport Citroën upgrade rally2
Peter Solberg WRT subaru upgrade rally2

other private drivers original rally2


no matter how the total entry numbers will increase

Win the Driver's championship? Possible.
Win the Manufacturer's championship? Depends who it is open for and who enters. Need rules.

Is Rally2 being upgraded though? Did I forget this already?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Is Rally2 being upgraded though? Did I forget this already?

No. They'll be further developed, not upgraded.

[saco0o]

Is Rally2 being upgraded though? Did I forget this already?

i think its more like skoda does every year or so. i'd call that 'updates' (via those 'joker' thing?)
they will probably have a little bit more room for 2027

[deephouse]

I think that upgrade to rally2 car is intended for those older models - i20, Fiesta (because I don't think they will build new models). Citroen will probably not be updated anymore (it will "upgrade" through Lancia), VW Polo doesn't have support, so no go for that car. Skoda and Toyota are currently the best cars out there and are updated reguraly, so they don't need any major improvements. i20 and Fiesta on the other side are amongst "slower" cars, so they are refferong to those two. It's only due to this that M-Sport and Hyundai could compete against Lancia, Toyota and Skoda and not be automaticaly way behind.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport already said they dont see the value for money in spending to upgrade the Fiesta for 2027.

And no-one knows what Hyundai will do except that they wont have a WTC27 car ready.

Plus how can they be made competitive. What upgrades will work while being fair to Skoda and Toyota?

[deephouse]

It sounds like the upgrades are worth millions on a car that costs 250.000.. maybe they will take sabatical year to focus on 2028. And it's only logical move for everyone, because FIA did screw it big time with (still) finalizing regulations. But don't know what cars would everyone use in 2027 if this will really happen (or the new era will be postopned for a year). Current Rally1 or straight to Rally2 without main category

[AndersX]

What I do not get in all this '27 mess is how FIA could f...it up so big - it even seems like a real neglect or even worth - simply and plain stupidity, or combination of both. This time the biggest stone should be thrown to FIA Rally commission.
Right now seems that better to go back to R2+ for 2 years and make modern, high-tech based rules from '29. Define it as transition period. What's wrong with Toksport winning WRC title with 2 more semi-privateers on podium?
To me seems that repairing the house that was f...up with Hybrid de-tour is not possible, not tearing the house down and building it up again.

[deephouse]

I think it's too late for 2027. And I hope that this will not mean that it will be too late to save WRC from collapsing, because it seems on paper that FIA could hit the golden ticket here with this ruleset, if they would do it on time. Could current regs (Rally1-hybridless) be eligible (or extended) for another year (2027)? And if current teams (Toyota, Hyundai, M-Sport) could run it for one more year? Or be persuaded to be there in 2028 with new cars. I think that this would be fair for everybody, even for potential "newcomers", since we all know that absolutely nobody will be able to challenge Toyota (even if someone will build WRC27 car and have it ready in Monte Carlo27 edition)

[WRCStan]

Have to say I'm getting pretty tired of this 'FIA fucked up with regs' rhetoric, especially when written with a Plan F that could be implemented. Rally1 regs were approved and made public December 2021, a month before Monte. WRC+ were published January 2017, weeks before Monte. It's really not a big deal that they aren't legally finalised and made public already. At this point it'll be that the devil details of the regs are being written around what is being fed back from those developing a car and to the best of my knowledge, the FIA doesn't build cars. Then they'll have a doc suitable for the officials ahead of the 2027 season. It isn't written for the public to admire and there is enough of WRC27 made public already for a manufacturer/constructor to decide if they are interested or not. Even the public know 99%.

We all want announcements and commitments from the '9' bodies apparently developing cars but that's being held up by commercial stuff, not the car technical regulations. Even if you go for Rally2+/4=X+y and print final regs you'd be in the same position with manufacturers not knowing who they are cutting a deal with and on what terms.

[Kenneth]

Not postponed, in RX it was always supposed to switch to WRC from 2028.

Also if you think FIA is f'ing up WRC, just look at RX. First forcing everyone to switch to electric cars, and when most of the grid finaly got them, they ban it lmao

[wyler]

i think the main error of this management is the decision to run after fans' humoral desires aka "the audience".
promoter is seeking big number to have return of investment for sponsors, but this is colliding with the manufacturers.
and wrc27 is the perfect example: going toward the most acclaimed rally2 (or rally2+) as top tier, then discovering that both rally1 and rally2 manus think "no thanks". results: new direction stalling on the ps start line!

[saco0o]

Not postponed, in RX it was always supposed to switch to WRC from 2028.

Also if you think FIA is f'ing up WRC, just look at RX. First forcing everyone to switch to electric cars, and when most of the grid finaly got them, they ban it lmao

oh, r u sure? i remember bakku and andrew coley saying "eurorx in 2026 then worldrx in 2027 with the new cars".
or there was some infos about this and i missed. it could be

[Kenneth]

Yeah it was announced in the first press release

https://www.fiaworldrallycross.com/news/fia-sets-bold-new-course-for-rallycross-from-2026

[Rallyper]

Toyota now testing in Spain and/or Portugal.
Testing new WRC27 car, not only WRC2 car.
At least Hänninen and Hussi are there. Maybe also faster guys...

[deephouse]

By the timeline they are working, the WRC27 car will be ready for Monte 2026. The only proper team

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lancia yesterday confirmed they wont build a WRC27 Car for 2028 and will remain with their new Rally2 Ypsilon Integrale:

https://rallyjournal.com/lancias-tempting-wrc-rumour-now-it-has-been-firmly-dismissed/

[deephouse]

Of course it will all follow that path. According to wikipedia for Rally2 cars the homolgations expire:
-both Fiesta Rally2 and R5 (2026)
-i20 Rally2 (2028)
-i20 R5 (2027)
-C3 Rally2 (2030)
-208 R5 (2027)
-Fabia RS Rally2 (2031)
-both Fabia Rally2 evo Fabia R5 (2026)
-Yaris Rally2 (2031)

Why would anyone even bother?

[saco0o]

sure, not a wrc car. rules are totally different.
but booooy we wouldnt mind watching 900hp.AP4 cars, eh??? (paddon)
https://youtube.com/shorts/MYdCQaWVO5s?si=-Tec81qqarp6tedh

[PLuto]

By the timeline they are working, the WRC27 car will be ready for Monte 2026. The only proper team

Car will be ready earlier than the regulations...

[sti123]

sure, not a wrc car. rules are totally different.
but booooy we wouldnt mind watching 900hp.AP4 cars, eh??? (paddon)
https://youtube.com/shorts/MYdCQaWVO5s?si=-Tec81qqarp6tedh

With 900hp, you need to change Hankook tires after every 5km.

[1988senna]

According to the rumours the 2027 have four class wrc1 wrc3 wrc4 wrc5 right? the wrc2 will be cancelled or combined to wrc1?

[deephouse]

That doesn't make any sense at all. Wrc1 have "Rally1" and Rally2 cars. Wrc3 have Rally3 cars. Wrc4 have Rally4 cars and Wrc5 have Rally5? So JWRC will be second top tier class? That just is so stupid

[deephouse]

Also I didn't saw anything under Rally3 class cars present for all championships for WRC for many years now, so Rally4 and Rally5 cars will not drink water here.

[Eli]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/lancia-rules-out-building-wrc27-car/#google_vignette
I think someone else posted that Lancia won't be in '27 main class :(

[saco0o]

but "rally2" is the main class in 2027.
toyota will run a pair of wrc27 because they want to build them. it was said both rally2 and wrc27 have more or less the same performance levels (theres a weight difference probably but they will work it out - not without some controversy, of course)

[deephouse]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/lancia-rules-out-building-wrc27-car/#google_vignette
I think someone else posted that Lancia won't be in '27 main class :(

I have a feeling that more of them will follow.

I still don't get the point what are they trying to achieve here running WRC27 alongise Rally2 cars. If lower category car will beat them it will be total embaressement and why would anyone even try build it in the first place.

And again it's total non-sense why development costs are so high... Way higher than current regulations. And following Lancia statement that the costs are too high, well, I totally understand it.

This WRC27 is a total bullshit. When we will have several brands aligned on the start line I will change my mind, but currently it does seem that their idea will die even before it will live.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I have a feeling that more of them will follow.

I still don't get the point what are they trying to achieve here running WRC27 alongise Rally2 cars. If lower category car will beat them it will be total embaressement and why would anyone even try build it in the first place.

And again it's total non-sense why development costs are so high... Way higher than current regulations. And following Lancia statement that the costs are too high, well, I totally understand it.

This WRC27 is a total bullshit. When we will have several brands aligned on the start line I will change my mind, but currently it does seem that their idea will die even before it will live.

Toyota will likely win with their WRC27 Car (no change there).

But at least there will be more brands of (Rally2) cars 'competing' with them in the top class.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

but it was said both rally2 and wrc27 have more or less the same performance levels (theres a weight difference probably but they will work it out - (not without some controversy, of course)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G6SzswrWIAAzy6g?format=jpg&name=small

[WRCStan]

I still don't get the point what are they trying to achieve here running WRC27 alongise Rally2 cars.

Best option for a competition.

Nobody wants Toyota alone in RC1.

When there's enough WRC27 manus/builders, either RC1 will be reinstated or Rally2 gets deprecated, possibly both.

[WRCStan]

I've just seen the Motorsport UK rep for the new World Motor Sport Council is Hugh Chambers. DR not on any candidate list. Feed that into the rumour mill.

[rallyfiend]

DR is too old to be eligible….

[WRCStan]

Not for WMSC.

[Kenneth]

Geely/Volvo's Chinese brand Lynk&Co announced a plan to expand into endurance racing and rallying, but without any details. They run TCR car since 2019. (link in chinese (https://weibo.com/6031625275/QeQxZ3xCy?pagetype=profilefeed))

[focus206]

Geely/Volvo's Chinese brand Lynk&Co announced a plan to expand into endurance racing and rallying, but without any details. They run TCR car since 2019. (link in chinese (https://weibo.com/6031625275/QeQxZ3xCy?pagetype=profilefeed))

Geely recently announced that it will directly enter TCR World Tour next year, so I imagine it will take the place of Lynk & Co in there. Maybe the Lynk & Co brand will be used for rallying...

[deephouse]

Geely recently announced that it will directly enter TCR World Tour next year, so I imagine it will take the place of Lynk & Co in there. Maybe the Lynk & Co brand will be used for rallying...

if it will be evenr Geely's call, it could be Proton, since it's their brand.

[BobJones]

I've just seen the Motorsport UK rep for the new World Motor Sport Council is Hugh Chambers. DR not on any candidate list. Feed that into the rumour mill.

Hugh's always been running the show, DR is number 2...

[WRCStan]

Hugh's always been running the show, DR is number 2...

DR is the current UK rep on the WMSC.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hyundai upgrading Rally2 car to “cover all bases” as 2027 WRC decision looms...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/hyundai-upgrading-rally2-car-to-cover-all-bases-as-2027-wrc-decision-looms/10782014/

[WRCStan]

Hyundai upgrading Rally2 car to “cover all bases” as 2027 WRC decision looms...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/hyundai-upgrading-rally2-car-to-cover-all-bases-as-2027-wrc-decision-looms/10782014/

“The next WRC car or whatever it is, is a bigger picture thing that we need to understand the direction of the sport, the promoter, and we still have a problem on the powertrain. We still do not have an engine that can qualify with the regulation, as you know it has to be a production-based powertrain - unlike the one used in Rally1. The FIA is aware of that.

“We have not committed to enter that car [Rally2] into a championship because we don’t know the rules of that championship.”

So they're not wholly against WRC2027 from this.

[deephouse]

Nobody is against new regulation I think.. The whole world is against FIA and their undecided stuff going on. The thing is, that nobody will be ready in time... Why? We all know why. Because it's hard to start doing something when things are not clear and not decided what will be the final form of regulations. Someone here say, that the teams already knew everything they need to start doing on new cars, but all this articles do prove that they don't know much more than we. That's why I'm thinking if there is a chance that maybe current regs could be extended for 2027, so the teams could have time for proper develop their new cars. Don't know what's the hurry.

But we are glad that Hyundai at least start doing something, better than nothing (which practicaly could mean that they will leave), so there is a hope still. Also private teams will like the fact that their car could be worthy for a couple more years.

[WRCStan]

My belief is 2027 is intended to get the promoter/FIA out of the hole of having to guarantee the entries.

On the unknowns Deephouse, it ain't the technical regs but who the teams will do business with. This should be sorted this month.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Fourmaux testing the i20 Rally2... is he checking it's got a chance of being competitive in 2027 from how it is now ?

https://youtu.be/4lvREtetMso?si=TiuRHb5oZHFoYzmW

[GigiGalliNo1]

I spoke to a member of the Chinese media that attended Saudi... Chinese manufacturers are no longer interested in the WRC. Hybrid? ICE? What are the promoters trying to show/portray? Given that is last years news... but also what will the de-spec'd WRC class of now turning into a Rally2 offer?

The Chinese are more interested in Rally Raid. To show off their technology, be Hybrid or Electric but also how strong their cars; mechanical parts (suspension, drivetrain, engines etc).

So Raid is in and Rally is out.

Sad but true. What does the WRC offer the Chinese?

[Franky]

So Raid is in and Rally is out.


Just out of interest. How known raid actually is? I have never followed it myself, so know the obvious Dakar and Baja. Also that there's one event in Turkey and one that used to run Western Siberia/Kazakhstan/Mongolia area or sth like that. But the only media coverage you'd get in Estonia would be of Dakar.

[deephouse]

Even that non-sense with those SUV's will end someday. Right now, brands are following that, because it's forced popular variation of a car, but we all know it's practicaly only because SUV's can be selled for way more for the same amount of production costs. And the rally raid have status of world championship, it's cheap and there is a Dakar, probably one of the most recognizable race in the world. If you look at each brand, almost all do have one, maybe two ''regural cars'' and 17 SUV's in their palette And even those two are somehow raised very high, look strange and offer very little for very big chunk of money. Brands are just following stupid agenda.

[Kenneth]

Or, maybe, brands are selling SUV or SUV crossovers because people buys them? What tf even mean "agenda" in this case?

Also brands like Dakar not only because it's a way to show their SUVs and pickups, but also because it's very easy to enter. They can choose any powertrain they want - electric, ICE, hybrid, fuel cells, whatever they want, not just 1.6 i4/3. It doesn't matter if they have eligible base model as the cars are built on spafeframe. And not just for brands, everyone can build car in their garage, put any badge they want and go to Dakar.

And viewers don't care that they are space frame, well almost nobody knows that. They don't care that the cars looks totally different than Hilux/Raptor/Amarok/whatever looks completely different. They don't care that Dacia runs prototype that looks like nothing in anything in their line and uses engine from Nissan GT-R.

And maybe that's where rallying should take inspiration from.

[WRCStan]

I spoke to a member of the Chinese media that attended Saudi... Chinese manufacturers are no longer interested in the WRC. Hybrid? ICE? What are the promoters trying to show/portray? Given that is last years news... but also what will the de-spec'd WRC class of now turning into a Rally2 offer?

The Chinese are more interested in Rally Raid. To show off their technology, be Hybrid or Electric but also how strong their cars; mechanical parts (suspension, drivetrain, engines etc).

So Raid is in and Rally is out.

Sad but true. What does the WRC offer the Chinese?

Who when where are the Chinese marques who were interested in WRC, and those now competing in Rally Raid?

What does WRC offer anyone.

[deephouse]

It was published some time ago that there is interest from there. But the last thing we got was that Lynk&Co will go rallying.. Probably meant Rally Raid and not rallying.

[Kenneth]

We'll see. But yeah, I'm afraid Chinese manus won't be very interested in rallying until there will be more freedom in powertrain choice.

Altrough Lynk&Co and MG have TCR cars, so maaybe we can see them in rallying.

[rallyfiend]

Chinese manuf’s aren’t so far interested in motorsport of any discipline.

No need to drag down rallying around it.

Hell, they don’t give a shit about Formula E and that should fit them

[deephouse]

That's why I think the closest chinese brand is Proton (actualy they are owned by Geely), which was in rallying, have some herritage, some success and were interested for top step various times already, but never come to this.

[WRCStan]

That's why I think the closest chinese brand is Proton (actualy they are owned by Geely), which was in rallying, have some herritage, some success and were interested for top step various times already, but never come to this.

Back in their rally days Proton were a force of the Malaysian state, like a lot of manufacturers, and the R5 was a British effort. This isn't a topic worth discussing it just generates rumours like Dacia.

[deephouse]

I just mentioned them because there was article that Lynk&Co is going rallying.. Their parent company is Geely which both are chinese brands. And also Proton under the same umbrella. They have herritage and have several wishes to enter. It would be the most logical than bringing some brand which doesn't even build proper cars for that discipline. I know it will not be rallying but probably raid. But who knows. Maybe someday we will see some progression in our beloved sport.

[deephouse]

https://rallyjournal.com/petter-solberg-prepares-a-major-wrc-project-weve-been-working-on-this-for-a-long-time/

I know that some of you aren't considering RallyJournal being reliable source, but I believe them. And also they at least give us something, while DirtFish just give one or two arcticles and then loop around them like it's the only thing going on in this sport... And by new standards behind paywall.

It seems Petter Solberg is really doing something behind the scenes.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://rallyjournal.com/petter-solberg-prepares-a-major-wrc-project-weve-been-working-on-this-for-a-long-time/

I know that some of you aren't considering RallyJournal being reliable source, but I believe them. And also they at least give us something, while DirtFish just give one or two arcticles and then loop around them like it's the only thing going on in this sport... And by new standards behind paywall.

It seems Petter Solberg is really doing something behind the scenes.

No-one doubts it, the same story has been going around for ages and from multiple sources.

But whether it will produce the end result of him running a team in WRC is still a huge doubt as Solberg pretty much admits.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

An option for a Hyundai WRC2027 Car ?

Hyundai to resurrect petrol-powered i30 N....

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/exclusive-hyundai-resurrect-petrol-powered-i30-n

[Andre Oliveira]

M-Sport Lynk & Co ?

https://www.tuttorally.news/wrc-addio-ford-m-sport-guarda-a-lynk-co/

[deephouse]

Wow

[tomhlord]

It would be a big move and a logical one - Ford is only interested in the Mustang, trucks, SUVs and more trucks. Core competencies, sure, but in my opinion, it leaves it a bit vulnerable.

Meanwhile, the Chinese brands are flooding some markets, but most of the brands lack history, legacy or even awareness outside of their homeland. Motorsport can set them apart, yet only Geely seems to realise this.

Of potential note here, Geely (Lynk & Co's parent company) has already announced that a new model will replace the Lynk & Co in TCR/WTCR - https://www.touringcartimes.com/2025/11/21/geely-to-join-fia-tcr-world-tour-with-cyan-racing/

That frees up the Lynk & Co brand to compete in other series.

[tomhlord]

(clicked edit post, got an error, then it appeared twice)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport Lynk & Co ?

https://www.tuttorally.news/wrc-addio-ford-m-sport-guarda-a-lynk-co/

Do they have a suitable car to be scaled for the WRC27 Regs ?

This looks the most sporty but is full EV...

https://fde-web-prd-001-gdegamg8eeebbuf9.z01.azurefd.net/-/jssmedia/lynkco-global-portal/media-library-2025/home/icon-1000x750-lynkco02.png?h=600&iar=0&w=800&rev=f9c4e0b95af8406fbe30149d8ee62a70&hash=6FB03E11CCD13B9D41798286EDD9523A

[Kenneth]

They don't need to have a suitable ICE car to be scaled for 27 regs. But tbh the whole article just looks... wierd. Maybe it's because the translation from Italian.

But doesn't make much sense to completely split from Ford (which imo the article implies) as M-Sport is heavily involved in Dakar and endurance programme.

Also some wierd to have some basic facts wrong as for example that Ford will lend its badge to Tag Heuer engines that Red Bull uses??? Red Bull doesn't use "Tag Heuer" engines for almost 10 years, and these were just rebranded Renault engines. New Ford-RBPT is developed by both Red Bull and Ford.

But ofc it would be great to see M-Sport have more funding in WRC. The rumors about both M-Sport and M-Sport Poland looking into WRC27 makes sense with the potential Lynk&Co link. So maybe the brittish branch will develop Lynk and polish branch will develop Ford branded cars? Or maybe both will use the same insides as the "tunner" rule will allow that?

It will definitely be interesting to see how it will develop.

[WRCStan]

Yeah it's not so much do they have a suitable car but do they have a production 1.6 engine, or access to one?

[Kenneth]

Well they use Volvo engines in TCR. Sure, it's 2.0, but they can downscalle it same way as Skoda, Fabia also uses engine bassed on 2.0.

[WRCStan]

Which to me ridicules the rule

[saco0o]

does the new rules have something like "if you build a wrc27 car you gotta build at least 10"?
i remember reading something but I couldnt find the article again. probably from dirt fish?
so if toyota is building the new car, they gotta build 10 so others can buy, right? (if that rule exsit, no idea if im imagining things now)

[deephouse]

No worries about them. They will run 6 of them in championship, probably 2 for test purposes, 1 for backup and 1 for their museum. And there you got it 10.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Millener has said it's complete bullish!t, this article about Msport with L&Co and what ever else has been written.

[PLuto]

Millener has said it's complete bullish!t, this article about Msport with L&Co and what ever else has been written.

This is unfortunately normal in these days. One will write an article or message on social media and despite it can be big shit, lot of others are copying it and writing another similar articles without checking if it is true or true fake...

[trykmann]

This is unfortunately normal in these days. One will write an article or message on social media and despite it can be big shit, lot of others are copying it and writing another similar articles without checking if it is true or true fake...

The Lynk & Co topic probably is rubish, but even if it isn't, then Millener still wouldn't confirm it and would say it is made up.

[denkimi]

Millener has said it's complete bullish!t, this article about Msport with L&Co and what ever else has been written.
They can't just leave ford. Their entire fleet is ford, not just the wrc cars.

[deephouse]

ho says they need to only have one brand's vehicles. Prodrive did have various projects... And having working with Dacia recently in Dakar, they partnered also with Defender for 2026 campaign. It's just that M-Sport have a legacy with Ford and it's somehow unexpected if they will leave it behind and go where the money is. Am I saying this for years, if Ford doesn't care, someone else will.

[macebig]

It's not just legacy. Every rally car bearing Ford's badge built in the last 30 years is being serviced by M-Sport. They're still providing parts and supporting Ford rally cars all around the world. You can't just leave that business behind. Even Prodrive came back to support Subaru rally cars through Heritage programs.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

does the new rules have something like "if you build a wrc27 car you gotta build at least 10"?
i remember reading something but I couldnt find the article again. probably from dirt fish?
so if toyota is building the new car, they gotta build 10 so others can buy, right? (if that rule exsit, no idea if im imagining things now)

FIA sets out requirements for WRC27 'Constructors' ...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-sets-out-requirements-for-wrc27-constructors/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQPMjc1MjU0 NjkyNTk4Mjc5AAEe4m97hHW-FvZVa2LpngYtnS3soe9SClqDAFYXk4C_Jd93NuGaJb9-iax-Es0_aem_ZgHHOaRlfYqPERWTYi7ujA

[saco0o]

starting next year, rally4s can be used in rallycross too. new class called rx4.
now we have rx1, rx3, rx4... no rx2 haha this is so annoying.

[WRCStan]

[W]ho says they need to only have one brand's vehicles.

Nobody, but it can also be a complete bullshit rumour.

[WRCStan]

FIA sets out requirements for WRC27 'Constructors' ...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-sets-out-requirements-for-wrc27-constructors/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQPMjc1MjU0 NjkyNTk4Mjc5AAEe4m97hHW-FvZVa2LpngYtnS3soe9SClqDAFYXk4C_Jd93NuGaJb9-iax-Es0_aem_ZgHHOaRlfYqPERWTYi7ujA

Have to say I certainly feel a sort of vindication for the things I've written here for the past few years. Never again do we have to discuss 'how to attract manufacturers', 'suitable bodyshells', 'SUVs' and 'entrants vs marques' lol.

'Second constructors' is poorly explained (from FIA source (https://www.fia.com/news/world-motor-sport-council-concludes-year-collaboration-growth-and-development-every-level)) given they already defined a constructor as having to enter the championship, but I think I get the gist.

It's a pivotal moment for the series whether you like it or not, and whether it works out or not. E.g. 10 year homologation period. If people still want to say Lancia bodyshell Rally2 is clearly the future, I just don't know what's to say to them anymore.

[deephouse]

Nobody, but it can also be a complete bullshit rumour.

It could be, but licking Ford fingers for so long and get absolutely nothing (besides donated 5 Pumas) must eventually stop. They still could provide support for their customers with Fords, just don't run it in main category anymore. I don't see a bad thing if M-Sport would start using others cars than Ford. OfcourseI would rather see them continuing wirh them, but in full scale as proper factory team, with great development, budget and good drivers... But it seems Ford does like giving nothing and getting advertisement for free. That's why my opinion is, they should start looking at all options, or there where money is.

Remember also that Toyota did had (and still have) Clios for their youth programme, as they don't have their own car developed.

[WRCStan]

With WRC27 M-Sport can build an M-Sport car of M-Sport design and give it an M-Sport name and enter it under M-Sport, all without Ford or having to look for a Ford alternative. That's the point in it all.

If a production car company, Lynk and Co, asked them to run a team I'm sure they would, but it's all been opened up.

[Kenneth]

Wait does this "Constructors" thing mean that Manufacturers and Tuners will be on a same level actually? Because last info was that only manufacturers can design own cars, and tuners will be only able to change a bodypanels of manufacturer's cars.

[Kenneth]

Wait does this "Constructors" thing mean that Manufacturers and Tuners will be on a same level actually? Because last info was that only manufacturers can design own cars, and tuners will be only able to change a bodypanels of manufacturer's cars.

So M-Sport as it was wouldn't make an M-Sport car without co-operation of Ford or anyone other.

[WRCStan]

So M-Sport as it was wouldn't make an M-Sport car without co-operation of Ford or anyone other.

Why not? Group A is gone. Reference cars are gone (bespoke styles permitted). All M-Sport need is a production engine. I don't know if the volume was made public or not, but given M-Sport provide engines to another series - they should be OK I think. Besides in August, FIA said manufacturers with another requirement are welcome to explain it. :confused:


Wait does this "Constructors" thing mean that Manufacturers and Tuners will be on a same level actually? Because last info was that only manufacturers can design own cars, and tuners will be only able to change a bodypanels of manufacturer's cars.

Inside the sport, yes same level, and it makes sense:


This introduces a formal definition for Constructors – bringing the Manufacturer and Tuner entrants under a singular umbrella as entrants in FIA World Rally Championship.

Outside the sport and from a road-legal POV, it makes no sense still:


A Constructor is the entity responsible for designing and building the WRC27-type car, preparing and submitting the vehicle for FIA homologation, and commercialising the car and its associated components.

I read this as 'manufacturer' supplies a 'tuner':


Where a Constructor supplies a second Constructor for partial homologation, the minimum production of the base car or car variant may be reduced relative to the supply to the second Constructor.

As I understand these things from my own experience and understanding of what will happen, a 'bodywork tuner car' will still legally be a 'manufacturer car'. Because if the 'manufacturer' sells a rolling chassis without paperwork (which it wouldn't), the 'bodywork tuner' is de facto the 'manufacturer' upon registration under their own name. So, a bodywork tuner will be driving an identical car on paper, only it looks different. (Kind of like how a Vauxhall Astra can be an estate or hatchback - it's a poor analogy). Last time out, the FIA said tuners will have to align with the manufacturer for all parts, so this makes sense to itself.

But upon FIA homologation, it looks like what is a legal 'manufacturer car' will become a 'tuner car' within FIA walls because the tuner homologated it.

They could do with getting somebody who wrote the rules to explain it rather than passing post it notes to the press office to interpret.

[WRCStan]

All M-Sport need is a production engine. I don't know if the volume was made public or not, but given M-Sport provide engines to another series - they should be OK I think. Besides in August, FIA said manufacturers with another requirement are welcome to explain it. :confused:

Going to Rally Journal (https://rallyjournal.com/major-revelation-from-toyota-boss-core-principles-of-2027-regulations-already-agreed/) in August, Tom Fowler said:

“What I understand is there’s a specific chapter that tells you how to build an engine for the championship. If you want to commit, you follow that chapter – all the information is clearly written down,” Fowler explained. “There’s also an appendix that says if a manufacturer or tuner has a different requirement – for a production engine, electrification, or similar – they can present it to the FIA.

But then Cyril said Hyundai needed a production engine they don't have.


:confused: