WRC main class in 2025

[doubled1978]

The problem is that BMW don't see rallying as part of their heritage, despite what the M3 achieved. Racing they are OK with, but rallying isn't how they see themselves.

Yeah, they have always had an aversion to rallying and never saw it as something to get involved with, I’m sure I read somewhere in the 80’s they didn’t like the car being dirty for marketing.
Personally, I think they were a little short sighted on the Prodrive Mini idea as that could have leveraged the brand historically and provided a good source of customer Motorsport through Prodrive as stated above.

[seb_sh]

And yet they've recently raced Dakar with both BMW and Mini for more than a decade...

[WRCStan]

The problem is that BMW don't see rallying as part of their heritage, despite what the M3 achieved. Racing they are OK with, but rallying isn't how they see themselves.

Mini and BMW should be separate brands in this discussion.

[WRCStan]

Shame they couldn't make more of the Mini relationship, if they'd played their cards right they could have made more than a decade of R5/Rally 2 Mini Coopers, a three door hatch that changes relatively little from generation to generation. Would have been a decent business for Prodrive...

There's a parallel with the S2000 WRC and proposing Rally2 as top class today. It wouldn't last.

[HKSjbg]

The problem is that BMW don't see rallying as part of their heritage, despite what the M3 achieved. Racing they are OK with, but rallying isn't how they see themselves.

So why was the project green lit in the first place?

[doubled1978]

So why was the project green lit in the first place?

Others no doubt know more than me, but as I understood it, the project was not a BMW (Mini) project or idea. Prodrive were allowed to use the brand and received some technical help, but there was no financial involvement at all from the factory and the whole thing relied on Prodrive obtaining a commercial sponsor to fund it into 2012 onwards. Prodrive backed it for 2011 to prove the cars worth for attracting a sponsor, but it didn’t happen and the project fell apart.
It was a shame as the chassis was reportedly very good, although the engine was certainly not as good as the others.

[AndyRAC]

So why was the project green lit in the first place?

From memory (and without looking it up) Prodrive had plans for a generic WRC car, and managed to sell the idea to BMW-Mini. BMW financed the early development/engine, etc It was then up to Prodrive to get a budget for an WRC assault from 2012 onwards, as BMW were returning to the DTM that year, and that was obviously their priority. There were plenty of mainstream news stories in 2011, even on BBC news about the Mini return to the WRC - all part of the plan to get finance/sponsorship. There were rumours of supposed big sponsors signing up, but nothing concrete. There were some promising performances in the few events they did, Meeke setting fastest time in the Rallye Catalunya Power Stage. All seemed good for 2012......

And then just before Christmas 2011, the famous tweet from Meeke....The Mini programme was in trouble and they required a pay driver in the second seat alongside Dani Sordo.

[Andre Oliveira]

Problem is that manufacturers doesn want that somebody use and promote their cars (mainly bodyshells) without their approval...

Finally someone say it. People dream about something that will never happen. Btw, Rally2-Kit, N5, Protos and others existance is interesting but i don't see manufacters happy with that.

[WRCStan]

Finally someone say it. People dream about something that will never happen. Btw, Rally2-Kit, N5, Protos and others existance is interesting but i don't see manufacters happy with that.

Can they do much about it? E.g. VWs carry on despite VW not wanting to carry on. This is if Dave has his way and if the FIA allows it. The realistic block at top level is the willing manufacturers not wanting competition. With WRC2 being a teams championship, there's no good reason I can see, as the future comes, why this isn't the way forward. It could even be the only way to retain ICE cars and keep people happy.

[skarderud]

In old days, importers in each country had own teams, building own cars.
Why would a manufacturer deny an official importers rallyteam based on a spaceframe and a productionbased engine?

I know its a long step fram a Escort MK2 to todays Rally1 cars, but someone around are able to build and finance a rallyteam.

Maybe rallying for a manufacturer is a dead horse anyway, maybe it has to be changed to more open and more simple rules to survive?

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[PLuto]

Others no doubt know more than me, but as I understood it, the project was not a BMW (Mini) project or idea. Prodrive were allowed to use the brand and received some technical help, but there was no financial involvement at all from the factory and the whole thing relied on Prodrive obtaining a commercial sponsor to fund it into 2012 onwards. Prodrive backed it for 2011 to prove the cars worth for attracting a sponsor, but it didn’t happen and the project fell apart.
It was a shame as the chassis was reportedly very good, although the engine was certainly not as good as the others.

Main problem was that Prodrive was always hoping they will dig more money from BMW...

[NaBUru38]

Rally needs cheap and powerful cars. But FIA wants to take money from manufacturers, and these want to make money selling racecars, rather than allow independent builders.

The FIA R4 Kit by Oreca was a great idea, but the FIA didn't push for it as they should.

The FIA is now working on a Rally5 Kit, but I honestly don't think they will really push it either.

[Kenneth]

Rally5 Kit aims to be regional cup class. It doesn't really "parasite" on manufacturers as there is close to zero interest both from drivers, who rather choose Rally4, so I guess there is no reason to lobby against that. I haven't seen many Rally5s "in wild", most of them were in Toksport Clio Cup.

But don't forget that Rally5 Kits have to be homologated through ASNs, so there is still control over who can build a car.

[denkimi]

Rally5 Kit aims to be regional cup class. It doesn't really "parasite" on manufacturers as there is close to zero interest both from drivers, who rather choose Rally4, so I guess there is no reason to lobby against that. I haven't seen many Rally5s "in wild", most of them were in Toksport Clio Cup.

But don't forget that Rally5 Kits have to be homologated through ASNs, so there is still control over who can build a car.
If ewrc is correct, renault has sold over 800 clio rally4 rally5's. is suspect most of those are rally5, so that's not something you can call zero interest. They are wildly popular.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://scontent.fopo5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/414727742_239441522433650_7752919734945202553_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8cd0a2&_nc_ohc=WOuZFm4LgOcAX88jwBp&_nc_oc=AQnlWNhvvDbTV2xMiNRyB8sI_JwIOr4lXFVQBNaXA6h yr_sjIdDsWNgzClKUbP6i-PhuAkd9EGA2hZB0HM1e0SAW&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo5-1.fna&oh=03_AdTrNOC4xi8VKm-64ZNb7de16bU_7NzwdTnG1Xd_fREApw&oe=65C4F744

Autosprint, pic via Borja Romero

[lmmjvss]

What? Rally2 for 2025 cuz that will make Lancia join?
Doubt.... and Rally2 PLUS will be expensive haha Just run the damn R5s, for f sake haha
"AHH BUT KALLE AND TIERRY DONT WANT TO RUN RALLY 2 CARS"
Well F* Kalle and Tierry then, jeeezzzz....

[TypeR]

If I remember correct, Kalle basically said that ,,rally2 on steroids'' would be ok IF really needed..

[AMSS]

https://scontent.fopo5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/414727742_239441522433650_7752919734945202553_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8cd0a2&_nc_ohc=WOuZFm4LgOcAX88jwBp&_nc_oc=AQnlWNhvvDbTV2xMiNRyB8sI_JwIOr4lXFVQBNaXA6h yr_sjIdDsWNgzClKUbP6i-PhuAkd9EGA2hZB0HM1e0SAW&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo5-1.fna&oh=03_AdTrNOC4xi8VKm-64ZNb7de16bU_7NzwdTnG1Xd_fREApw&oe=65C4F744

Autosprint, pic via Borja Romero

While this might become reality at some point I seriously doubt it will be already 2025...

[skarderud]

While this might become reality at some point I seriously doubt it will be already 2025...2026 at earliest.
If its a change before that, it is plain Rally2.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[Andre Oliveira]

Rally2+ concept by Keane Design

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GDg16QhXoAAtf27?format=jpg&name=large

[EstWRC]

Wow, what an effort making this. Huge changes

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GDk9awnWsAA0rHN?format=jpg&name=large

[wyler]

basically some good old wrc. still like it a lot!

[Duvel]

basically some good old wrc. still like it a lot!

Agree! Nice looking cars, bit more spectacular than Rally2, but not to much!

Wrc2 plus would be good move!

If manufacturers can provide some update kit for allready running (rally2) cars,than we would see a field of 20 cars in top class each rally!
Local hero's in the mix for top spots would spice up things.

[wyler]

Agree! Nice looking cars, bit more spectacular than Rally2, but not to much!

Wrc2 plus would be good move!

If manufacturers can provide some update kit for allready running (rally2) cars,than we would see a field of 20 cars in top class each rally!
Local hero's in the mix for top spots would spice up things.

that's arguable... i think manufacturers will build a "rally1-" more than upgrading the rally2...

[becher]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GDk9awnWsAA0rHN?format=jpg&name=large

Is it 2011 again?

[AndersX]

Just interesant read in some resources (just google Extreme E vs Extreme H): Extreme E will be replaced with Extreme H...hydrogen. This might be some kind of first signal-bird of some tides in the top promoter fields. The guy who created Extreme E is the same who built Formula E. And Siemens is going to be involved. Something is brewing.

[Jarek Z]

Interesting indeed. They expect Extreme E in its current form to go away when the hydrogen-powered cars arrive. They say that the new "Extreme H" championship is coming in 2025:
https://racer.com/2023/09/30/why-extreme-e-plans-to-swap-its-e-for-an-h/
https://www.extreme-e.com/en/news/1143_Extreme-H-completes-successful-shakedown-of-its-first-prototype
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcWPuw7d0m8

[Eli]

I wouldn't be surprised at this point if they're reading our discussions at this point: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-likely-is-rally2-to-take-over-the-wrc/

[seb_sh]

I wouldn't be surprised at this point if they're reading our discussions at this point: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-likely-is-rally2-to-take-over-the-wrc/

maybe, maybe not, it's not hard for anyone to see that there are fewer and fewer top cars at the start and the idea of Rally2+ or going to Rally2 is not new, in fac it's quite a few years old. I can understand the manufacturer's view that they invested in this spaceframe chassis and want to keep it. Also for MSport if you look at the car they need to make into a rally car I suppose Rally2 is no-go, the Fiesta doesn't exist anymore and the Puma seems to be not ideal, the spaceframe solves this. The concept of Rally1- or Rally1.5 or whatever is coming up more and more. We'll see what happens, for me the current situation, with 8 top cars and stupid points system si not compelling at all.

[wyler]

I wouldn't be surprised at this point if they're reading our discussions at this point: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-likely-is-rally2-to-take-over-the-wrc/

let's check!

very roadside rumors from italy (don't really trustworthy to me, but...)

lancia hired david richards to manage their rally2/rally2+ adventure to come.

[RS]

Also for MSport if you look at the car they need to make into a rally car I suppose Rally2 is no-go, the Fiesta doesn't exist anymore and the Puma seems to be not ideal, the spaceframe solves this.

The roadgoing Puma has a similar wheelbase to the Rally1 car and is narrower too, so should be possible.

[HKSjbg]

To me the most relevant comparison is to the Mk1 Mini Countryman;

Puma is 4186mm long - 89 longer than MC (79mm longer than the current-gen Fabia by the way)

Puma is 1537mm tall - 24 lower than MC

Obviously there are more considerations that go into assessing the suitability of the Puma as a Rally2 car. But I was surprised to find out it’s lower than a Countryman so maybe it’s not so farfetched an idea?

[doubled1978]

I have been and I remain a supporter of the idea of Rally2+ becoming the main class for WRC. The current situation is just not sustainable for the series, no matter how good the cars are.
To be honest, I would actually be happy with Rally2 if all 5 brands (Toyota, Hyundai, Ford, Citroen & Skoda) would field teams of at least 3 works cars, plus customer entries. Strong competition with a deep field of entries trumps 8 Rally1 cars for me everytime.
I know others have different opinions, but I think the WRC needs to step back to go forward.

[wyler]

I have been and I remain a supporter of the idea of Rally2+ becoming the main class for WRC. The current situation is just not sustainable for the series, no matter how good the cars are.
To be honest, I would actually be happy with Rally2 if all 5 brands (Toyota, Hyundai, Ford, Citroen & Skoda) would field teams of at least 3 works cars, plus customer entries. Strong competition with a deep field of entries trumps 8 Rally1 cars for me everytime.
I know others have different opinions, but I think the WRC needs to step back to go forward.

it's the manufacturers to have different opinions. skoda and citroen already said no to the idea, and generally no to works team. they want only clients. maybe they ll change their mind...

[Sulland]

it's the manufacturers to have different opinions. skoda and citroen already said no to the idea, and generally no to works team. they want only clients. maybe they ll change their mind...

When FIA is making rules for the future, the last parties they should listen to are the 2,5 manufacturers crying for their sick mother.
Choosing the Wrc2+ path will give FIA the same 2,5 plus 2-3 more, and a much better show!

[WRCStan]

When FIA is making rules for the future, the last parties they should listen to are the 2,5 manufacturers

...paying the bills.


Choosing the Wrc2+ path will give FIA the same 2,5 plus 2-3 more

...not paying the bills competing on equal footing.

I've just read David Evans' article and it's also flawed multiple times beyond any practicable logic, which is always lacking from this pro-Rally2+ argument, however nice it may be imagined panning out on the stages or in the standings.

I'm bored of commenting on this specific car now but I'll entertain the possibility of it happening, which suggests Hyundai will exit at the end of this season and the Promoter's accounts are not healthy. If it happens, it happens. I can't say I'll be following because there's no way to imagine how I'll be able to follow.

[fiscorpun]

"The working group has stipulated a minimum of 25 competitive cars in the WRC’s premier category from round one next season."

...doubt. If they are going for Rally2+ cars, we will have to believe that theres at least 17 privateers willing to UPGRADE their cars in order to fit the new top class together with 3 hyundais, 3 toyotas and 2 msports (well... IF they are all willing to keep the "factory teams", of course... and I'd guess Hyundai would quit the factory team)
BTW... really weird to just decide this number at a table, eh? "25 cars starting for 2025". Yeah, right. Whos paying for that? Weird.
THO... If they go with Rally2, then Fine. Its solved, we WILL HAVE enough privatters. Screw Hyundai, Ford, Tierry and Ogier if they "dont want to drive Rally2 cars" hehe

[Steve Boyd]

"The working group has stipulated a minimum of 25 competitive cars in the WRC’s premier category from round one next season."Whatever the car formula, that level of entry is a pure fantasy without a drastic reduction in the number of WRC events unless they allow "WRC’s premier category" cars to run in Regional & National Championships so that local entries can top-up the championship contenders on each WRC event.

[typhoon]

"The working group has stipulated a minimum of 25 competitive cars in the WRC’s premier category from round one next season."

...doubt. If they are going for Rally2+ cars, we will have to believe that theres at least 17 privateers willing to UPGRADE their cars in order to fit the new top class together with 3 hyundais, 3 toyotas and 2 msports (well... IF they are all willing to keep the "factory teams", of course... and I'd guess Hyundai would quit the factory team)
BTW... really weird to just decide this number at a table, eh? "25 cars starting for 2025". Yeah, right. Whos paying for that? Weird.
THO... If they go with Rally2, then Fine. Its solved, we WILL HAVE enough privatters. Screw Hyundai, Ford, Tierry and Ogier if they "dont want to drive Rally2 cars" hehe

Manufacturers comes and goes, no big deal on that. If you have an exciting championship with good events, the show will be higher and thus you could have wealthy privateers with good sponsors to pay the bills. People would still come to see a better show, even though with "cheaper" cars and TV figures would increase with more exciting battles with different cars and teams/drivers.

Said that, Hyundai could remain as customer racing, which at the end of the day doesn't affect the show, just naming difference. Same for M-Sport, they would remain as just "M-Sport" without Ford backing. It already happened when Ford withdrew after 2012 (and was "just" Qatar M-Sport WRT). The cars will be on the entry list either way.

Same would apply with Skoda for example, while we could see a comeback from Lancia or also Subaru, which was rumoured to be interested to a cheaper commitment by using Haas F1 business model (purchasing parts and engine from Toyota and maybe outsourcing to a developer like Prodrive in the past).

The whole thing is still how much commitment we would have from WRC Promoter to "sell the brand". Liberty Media in Formula 1, but staying in Europe we can watch at Ratel's SRO creature with GT World Challenge (which grew ridicolously good in the last couple of years!), shows that without investments on crafting something catchy, you wouldn't have any return.

[WRCStan]

Deary me!

Apart from the Lancia and Subaru point, aren't you just describing ERC? Even that GT series isn't worldly.

[typhoon]

Deary me!

Apart from the Lancia and Subaru point, aren't you just describing ERC? Even that GT series isn't worldly.

Ford and Hyundai would basically be still factory teams in terms of budgets and development, simply without the whole marketing thing of a fully-fledged factory team. Don't think an Average Joe will research through the FIA registration papers to check if "M-Sport Qatar" will have anything different than "M-Sport Ford".

I mean, really... I'd go 100% for a Qatar-whoeveritpays-backed private M-Sport team with 3-4 cars at each event like in 2013, rather than a "factory" Ford with 1.5 on the entry list!

At the end of the story, we need an interesting, challenging championship that can deliver spectacle on the special stages and thus on TV to be back to its old glory days. I don't really care about who will pay the fee to the FIA for Manufacturer registration lmao :D

[WRCStan]

I don't really care about who will pay the fee to the FIA for Manufacturer registration lmao :D

This season, it's value alone is over a million euros to the Promoter, before talking of exposure deals. You are saying the Promoter should invest in a product worth watching, but not giving them the means to, whilst saying the 'whole marketing thing' could stop.

But OK, I thought you were saying bring the manufacturer's championship to an end.

[wyler]

Ford and Hyundai would basically be still factory teams in terms of budgets and development, simply without the whole marketing thing of a fully-fledged factory team. Don't think an Average Joe will research through the FIA registration papers to check if "M-Sport Qatar" will have anything different than "M-Sport Ford".

I mean, really... I'd go 100% for a Qatar-whoeveritpays-backed private M-Sport team with 3-4 cars at each event like in 2013, rather than a "factory" Ford with 1.5 on the entry list!

At the end of the story, we need an interesting, challenging championship that can deliver spectacle on the special stages and thus on TV to be back to its old glory days. I don't really care about who will pay the fee to the FIA for Manufacturer registration lmao :D

i seriuosly doubt that hiunday will develop an entirely new car only for privateers, and maybe also m-sport. The same is for skoda and otehrs i doubt. they ll continue to sell "normal" rally2 to customer and leave the rally2+ for wrc manufactures.

[WRCStan]

i seriuosly doubt that hiunday will develop an entirely new car only for privateers, and maybe also m-sport. The same is for skoda and otehrs i doubt. they ll continue to sell "normal" rally2 to customer and leave the rally2+ for wrc manufactures.

FIA wouldn't allow them to sell Rally2+ for starters.

[Steve Boyd]

This season, it's value alone is over a million euros to the Promoter, before talking of exposure deals.
Is that part of the problem?

A manufacturer sees a bill of €385815 just to register for the championship before design & development costs, entry fees and running costs and that frightens them off. The difference of €118349 registration for a manufacturer team in Rally2 compared with €11835 for a private team probably explains why there are no works teams from Skoda or Citroen.

If the FIA & WRC Promoter were making an entertaining product that they could sell at a suitable profit then they could lower the registration fees and grow the WRC. While they are offering poor quality content and are happy to live off registration and entry fees WRC will never grow.

[typhoon]

If the FIA & WRC Promoter were making an entertaining product that they could sell at a suitable profit then they could lower the registration fees and grow the WRC. While they are offering poor quality content and are happy to live off registration and entry fees WRC will never grow.

Exactly this point. If WRC Promoter works on an entertaining product to sell (we talked elsewhere about "selling the story", which is totally spot on), then you don't need to have a "M-Sport Qatar" team, but since there's no investments on this side from the company that is supposed to make the championship grow, then it's reasonable to find a compromise, mid-way solution by allowing "private-factory" teams like we saw in the past with Kronos Racing, Red Bull Skoda, M-Sport Qatar, or Abu Dhabi DS3 team, etc.

At the end it's a matter of choices. If the championship will be appealing, there would be no need for those gimmicks, but seeing the product right now, allowing "private-factory" outlets is the only feasible solution with Rally2+ cars that would allow to field cars in a cheaper way. And a Rally 2+ with "WRC kit" would fit perfectly for some wealthy privateers.

[rallyfiend]

Manufacturers comes and goes, no big deal on that. If you have an exciting championship with good events, the show will be higher and thus you could have wealthy privateers with good sponsors to pay the bills. People would still come to see a better show, even though with "cheaper" cars and TV figures would increase with more exciting battles with different cars and teams/drivers.

Said that, Hyundai could remain as customer racing, which at the end of the day doesn't affect the show, just naming difference. Same for M-Sport, they would remain as just "M-Sport" without Ford backing. It already happened when Ford withdrew after 2012 (and was "just" Qatar M-Sport WRT). The cars will be on the entry list either way.

Same would apply with Skoda for example, while we could see a comeback from Lancia or also Subaru, which was rumoured to be interested to a cheaper commitment by using Haas F1 business model (purchasing parts and engine from Toyota and maybe outsourcing to a developer like Prodrive in the past).

The whole thing is still how much commitment we would have from WRC Promoter to "sell the brand". Liberty Media in Formula 1, but staying in Europe we can watch at Ratel's SRO creature with GT World Challenge (which grew ridicolously good in the last couple of years!), shows that without investments on crafting something catchy, you wouldn't have any return.

Mentioning SRO's products in the same context as any other motorsport series is an absolute mess.
They are rich gentleman series with zero spectators and the bare minimum of media coverage on youtube just so the rich guys can show their mates and feel like proper race car drivers... Most of their races are lucky to get 200k viewers in total. And that's basically the entire audience....

[rallyfiend]

Is that part of the problem?

A manufacturer sees a bill of €385815 just to register for the championship before design & development costs, entry fees and running costs and that frightens them off. The difference of €118349 registration for a manufacturer team in Rally2 compared with €11835 for a private team probably explains why there are no works teams from Skoda or Citroen.

If the FIA & WRC Promoter were making an entertaining product that they could sell at a suitable profit then they could lower the registration fees and grow the WRC. While they are offering poor quality content and are happy to live off registration and entry fees WRC will never grow.

I don't think a manufacturer really gives a shit about the 385k fee to the FIA. If they do, they're not a serious company. This is a World Championship. It's never going to come for free.
Have you seen how much the FIA charges to F1 drivers for their SuperLicense?!!

[Franky]

I don't think a manufacturer really gives a shit about the 385k fee to the FIA. If they do, they're not a serious company. This is a World Championship. It's never going to come for free.
Have you seen how much the FIA charges to F1 drivers for their SuperLicense?!!

It's not so much about being free but about being worth it.

[wyler]

I don't think a manufacturer really gives a shit about the 385k fee to the FIA. If they do, they're not a serious company. This is a World Championship. It's never going to come for free.
Have you seen how much the FIA charges to F1 drivers for their SuperLicense?!!

honestly, it's enough to sell a couple of cars to raise that money! point is the same as always: it's not how much you have to pay. it is how much comes back (ROI)

skoda is not using a full factory team 'cause they don't need it to sell cars right now. no one is showing better results at the moment. if hiunday or toyota or others start to beat them constantly, they ll have to invest to show the car is the best, or customer will go away.

[seb_sh]

They are rich gentleman series
Apart from the 1/3 or 1/4 of the sometimes 60+ size grid that is made up of pro teams with pro drivers.


the bare minimum of media coverage on youtube
Full free live broadcasts of all sessions, including races from 1 hour sprints to 24 hour endurance with normal track side cameras, on-boards and commentary teams in 2 (sometimes 3) languages that include former formula1 or sportscar drivers. Replays and highlights available for free anytime as well. Compare to what WRC offers for 120 euros per year. The broadcast conditions are tougher for WRC, but still when you really compare it seems strange no? Even the WEC and IMSA put their full race replays on youtube for free a week or two after the race, including the 24h of Le Mans. I ask myself the question if it's better to get a couple million from tv rights or grow your sport/product/audience.


so the rich guys can show their mates and feel like proper race car drivers... Most of their races are lucky to get 200k viewers in total. And that's basically the entire audience....
I don't know specific spectator numbers but maybe you need to reconsider some things. Obviously it's a different business model in GT racing, usually teams have 1 or 2 "Pro-Am" cars with "gentlemen/women" drivers that bring budget fighting in their own subclass and 1 or 2 "Pro" cars with payed fast drivers fighting for the overall win. I think if you look closely there are a lot of "gentlemen/women" drivers in rally as well, who often bring sponsorship and sometimes support some young drivers too, especially at national level. In fact if you look in the history of motor racing in general, including rally, these "rich amateurs" have usually been one of the cornerstones of motorsport. I think it's a mistake to not consider privateers as part of any future plan in any category.

[rallyfiend]

Skoda and Citroen are not 'full factory' efforts right now because the parent company's have different motorsport strategies within their various parent groups (SKoda still feeling the hangover of VW dieselgate, and Stellantis in electric) and therefore they can't get sign-off for a factory effort.

But, they have enough funding to be able to run customer-focused (but supported) operations. So they can afford to run the programmes and pay drivers and for cars etc, but can't politically say these are factory teams.

We all know Skoda is really factory, it's just presented differently for perception reasons....

[seb_sh]

I don't think a manufacturer really gives a shit about the 385k fee to the FIA. If they do, they're not a serious company. This is a World Championship. It's never going to come for free.
Have you seen how much the FIA charges to F1 drivers for their SuperLicense?!!

Rally is not F1 (and that's a good thing). Actually nothing else is F1, F1 is F1, the sooner that is understood the better.

[Mirek]

We all know Skoda is really factory, it's just presented differently for perception reasons....

Actually it isn't. Had they have a real works team they would be stronger. That's a sure thing. And exactly for that reason it doesn't make much sense for people to automatically expect teams running Rally2 cars to join WRC if it goes Rally2+. Running a factory-supported team in a support championship is something completely different than to run a WRC team. The level of competition and the difference coming from the tinest details is completely different. They are not stupid and know that there is no chance a factory supported private team like Toksport could defeat Toyota or Hyundai in the WRC. Add to that the very fact that running a team which only serves the purpose of bringing numbers makes more damage to the marketing than not running it at all.

[Mirek]

Rally is not F1 (and that's a good thing). Actually nothing else is F1, F1 is F1, the sooner that is understood the better.

The whole thing is completely simple and SAME for any motorsport championship be it F1, WRC, MotoGP or Dakar. The value must be worth the investment. The higher the value of the championship, the higher cost is acceptable.

Don't forget that it goes both ways. A terrible product is never cheap enough.

Also by cutting cost you don't improve the product.

Now think about who is the customers. Is it poor privateers or rich gigantic companies? Which strategy will work for which group of customers? If you go to a sheikh will you offer him the best value for cost city hatchback or a Bugatti? It works the same way with the manufacturers. They will not invest in something cheap just because it's cheap. They need to see the value and only after that they will talk about the cost.

[Mirek]

I'd add a bit more to clarify my point. The problem of WRC today is not the cost but the lack of value.

Let's say our cost of today's WRC season is 100%. We know that the value of the championship is not enough to attract new manufacturers.

Now let's cut costs by whatever means. If we are very successful we may cut it to 90% (all season expenses included). Will the same value with 10% discount attract the new manufacturers now? I bet it won't.

So it's clear that what we need is to raise the value substantially. The million Dollar question is how. To be honest I don't know.

[seb_sh]

That's good point Mirek, it's not just about some cost/return ration but also about the total value. Personally I advocate in favor of privateers and more cars for some reasons like having a wider selection of potential drivers. But to clarify my position, I don't think the solution is found only in the technical regulations.

In fact there needs to be some overall strategy about the "product" of rally, the story you want to tell and so on. Then you can determine the details like event format, points, technical regulations and so on. I don't think there's any one element that someone can "fix".

[wyler]

to me, if there's a way, it has to be in the root core of rallying. and for me, the best thing to extract from there is the variability of it in any aspect.

rally is the sport in which you tackle unexpected and very diverse things. so let's make it the added value.
we can have very different power tech and try a bop to make it race together, (but we can think of it as tech in general, like 2wd vs 4wd). we can expand it onto the format, keeping some "classic" in the current format and leaving space for other proposals like 3/4 short/compact round as some drivers requested. i guess promoter can really ride the "adaptation" and "adventures" storytelling, as well manufacturers can have some spotlight for kinda everything they want to try. Somehow if there's wide range of condition or format, any tech/solution will shine somewhere, sooner or later.

[AndyRAC]

Mentioning SRO's products in the same context as any other motorsport series is an absolute mess.
They are rich gentleman series with zero spectators and the bare minimum of media coverage on youtube just so the rich guys can show their mates and feel like proper race car drivers... Most of their races are lucky to get 200k viewers in total. And that's basically the entire audience....

You are an ignorant fool....SRO series have been some of the best motorsport in the last 10 years. Take your WRC tinted glasses off for a change.....

[focus206]

Mentioning SRO's products in the same context as any other motorsport series is an absolute mess.
They are rich gentleman series with zero spectators and the bare minimum of media coverage on youtube just so the rich guys can show their mates and feel like proper race car drivers... Most of their races are lucky to get 200k viewers in total. And that's basically the entire audience....

:D
are the rich gentlemen the best GT drivers of the world such as Marciello, Vanthoor, Gounon, Engel, Stolz, Bortolotti, Caldarelli etc? The WEC GT class could only dream such competition in the past years and apart from Estre, Pier Guidi and maybe Makowiecki, the other WEC factory drivers were not on that level at all.
bare minimum of media coverage? They stream everything for free... what should we say about WRC, or WEC, or the old WTCR? All world championships of their category, and yet...

[ouvreur]

You are an ignorant fool....SRO series have been some of the best motorsport in the last 10 years. Take your WRC tinted glasses off for a change.....

Regardless of the quality, if so many rich gentlemen are falling over themselves to spend money with SRO, they must be doing something right, all the more so if that is happening with 'zero spectators' and 'bare minimum of media coverage'. Rallying could do with learning lessons there.

[rallyfiend]

It can be the greatest motorsport in the world.

No one knows because no one is watching it...

I would never deny the problems with WRC, but I think SRO is not the best comparison.

[Mirek]

I would never deny the problems with WRC, but I think SRO is not the best comparison.

Sorry for my ignorance but what is SRO?

[Mirek]

That's good point Mirek, it's not just about some cost/return ration but also about the total value. Personally I advocate in favor of privateers and more cars for some reasons like having a wider selection of potential drivers. But to clarify my position, I don't think the solution is found only in the technical regulations.

The problem with privateer-oriented series is that they bring an order of magnitude lesser money to the series hence why if WRC decides to ignore the manufacturers and go full privateer it will disappear as a major motorsport. With the manufacturer's money gone the all live production will be gone, the major global sponsors will be gone, after that the state-funding will be largely gone and we will end with another ERC because nobody will go outside Europe anyway.

For me the WRC can survive only with the manufacturers. Still the series shall allow private tuners to homologate their cars. Now when we have the spaceframes there is not even a need to pretend that such car represents any manufacturer. They can run under their own banner like in Dakar.

[seb_sh]

The problem with privateer-oriented series is that they bring an order of magnitude lesser money to the series hence why if WRC decides to ignore the manufacturers and go full privateer it will disappear as a major motorsport. With the manufacturer's money gone the all live production will be gone, the major global sponsors will be gone, after that the state-funding will be largely gone and we will end with another ERC because nobody will go outside Europe anyway.

For me the WRC can survive only with the manufacturers. Still the series shall allow private tuners to homologate their cars. Now when we have the spaceframes there is not even a need to pretend that such car represents any manufacturer. They cun run under their own banner like in Dakar.


Besides Dakar, WRX is another example where it's a mix of works or semiworks, plus some independent tuners and some private teams.

Indeed it has to be more open both for independents building cars and in my opinion also allow smaller teams to run cars as it happened until 2017. For some reason at that point they decided to be a closed shop. I think that's a mistake... As for going full private I'm not sure that's the solution for WRC, even if there are examples where it works. The WRC needs to find their own path. Unfortunately I feel they are too closed minded to find something but we'll see.

[HKSjbg]

Sorry for my ignorance but what is SRO?

Stephane Ratel Organisation

[Duvel]

Besides Dakar, WRX is another example where it's a mix of works or semiworks, plus some independent tuners and some private teams.

Indeed it has to be more open both for independents building cars and in my opinion also allow smaller teams to run cars as it happened until 2017. For some reason at that point they decided to be a closed shop. I think that's a mistake... As for going full private I'm not sure that's the solution for WRC, even if there are examples where it works. The WRC needs to find their own path. Unfortunately I feel they are too closed minded to find something but we'll see.

Works teams, whit satelite teams.

Like Hyundai whit 2C competition, or redgrey

In the past there was Msport, and than Stobart, and Munchi's for example.

Whit more cheap cars, i can see this happening again!

[macebig]

WRC needs to disengage themselves from manufacturers. They were never the driving force behind the championship until recently. It was always individuals pushing the sport ahead and not corporate. Hell, it's still true today. Without Malcolm Wilson and Akio Toyoda, there is no WRC as we currently know it.

[WRCStan]

WRC needs to disengage themselves from manufacturers. They were never the driving force behind the championship until recently. It was always individuals pushing the sport ahead and not corporate. Hell, it's still true today. Without Malcolm Wilson and Akio Toyoda, there is no WRC as we currently know it.

There is only a WRC because of manufacturers. At times where it should have disappeared, the privateer and promoter stood in for brief periods. That should not be the dream destination.

[WRCStan]

If the FIA & WRC Promoter were making an entertaining product that they could sell at a suitable profit then they could lower the registration fees and grow the WRC. While they are offering poor quality content and are happy to live off registration and entry fees WRC will never grow.

Sir/madam, this is business. Read my signature.

[WRCStan]

The difference of €118349 registration for a manufacturer team in Rally2 compared with €11835 for a private team probably explains why there are no works teams from Skoda or Citroen.

Do ya think?! Why should they be getting silverware and palmares for free when they are Rally1 targets?

[RS]

Sir/madam, this is business. Read my signature.

Yes it is, but sometimes you have to speculate to accumalate.

[WRCStan]

Yes it is, but sometimes you have to speculate to accumalate.

You also have to accumulate to accumulate. Selling video rights and subscriptions isn't the only earner.

[denkimi]

The problem with privateer-oriented series is that they bring an order of magnitude lesser money to the series hence why if WRC decides to ignore the manufacturers and go full privateer it will disappear as a major motorsport. With the manufacturer's money gone the all live production will be gone, the major global sponsors will be gone, after that the state-funding will be largely gone and we will end with another ERC because nobody will go outside Europe anyway.

For me the WRC can survive only with the manufacturers. Still the series shall allow private tuners to homologate their cars. Now when we have the spaceframes there is not even a need to pretend that such car represents any manufacturer. They can run under their own banner like in Dakar.
F1 proves that you are wrong on this.

[RS]

You also have to accumulate to accumulate. Selling video rights and subscriptions isn't the only earner.

What revenue streams are there that wouldn't be higher with more eyeballs?

[becher]

F1 proves that you are wrong on this.

There are no privateers in F1. Just very well funded constructors.

[NaBUru38]

The Monte Carlo Rally has 8 entries in the Rally1 class. The 2024 Dakar Rally has 70 entries in the T1 Ultimate class. And the latter aren't exactly cheap. In fact, there's 21 Toyota Hilux.

[fiscorpun]

EIGHT CARS to do the greatest rally event of the planet? What a joke...
The promoter also runs the World Rallycross championship. They had two ridiculous years with only 7 electric cars or so, had a huge fire explosion with Loeb's team and said NOTHING about it. Made the teams run second class spec cars to finish the championship in HONG KONG or whatever... but for 2024 they are bringing ICE cars back because people stopped watching. Lets see if they can reverse the damage. I JUST HOPE they change stuff in WRC for 2025 cuz having EIGHT cars doint Monte Carlo is just to confirm that Rally1 must die, honestly....

[Kenneth]

The 2024 Dakar Rally has 70 entries in the T1 Ultimate class.

Because everyone can build their own car on space frame chassis and can use road engine. There is only one fully in-house works team (Audi), few "outsourced" works team (Toyota, Ford, Mini and Chinese brands) and also Prodrive, funded by Saudis. The rest are private entries, some of them even build the cars themselves, like Martin Prokop.

[Kenneth]

There are no privateers in F1. Just very well funded constructors.

I would say that Haas is a privateer. They buy chassis from Dallara and buys every part possible from Ferrari. They only make the parts that F1 forbids to buy from other teams, often with help from Ferrari's engineers.

I wouldn't be mad to see something similar in WRC tbh.

[doubled1978]

The Monte Carlo Rally has 8 entries in the Rally1 class. The 2024 Dakar Rally has 70 entries in the T1 Ultimate class. And the latter aren't exactly cheap. In fact, there's 21 Toyota Hilux.

This for an event that is invisible even by WRC standards.
Unless the current Manufacturers can commit to running a load more Rally1 cars, I don’t see the promoter/FIA have much choice other than to change it to Rally2 or some derivative of.

[WRCStan]

What revenue streams are there that wouldn't be higher with more eyeballs?

The point was about manufacturer registrations and according to the factbooks, the same data manufacturers see, eyeballs have consistently grown year-on-year while no manufacturer has joined in the last 7 years.

Besides, I'm sure the Promoter is communicating with all the potential manufacturers anyway, ready to do a deal.

[Mirek]

F1 proves that you are wrong on this.

Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren, Alpine and Aston Martin are pure manufacturers and all the other teams use engines and other parts sourced from the manufacturers.

F1 is not a privateer series.

[WRCStan]

The Monte Carlo Rally has 8 entries in the Rally1 class. The 2024 Dakar Rally has 70 entries in the T1 Ultimate class. And the latter aren't exactly cheap. In fact, there's 21 Toyota Hilux.

Rally1 has to do the whole championship, so compare that. What about the other events in the WR2C, how many here can even name them without looking? Dakar is a privately owned event that's bigger than the championship, and WR2C so far has seen exemption from the rules enforced on WRC, so it's not a useful comparison.

[NaBUru38]

This for an event that is invisible even by WRC standards.
Several French, Spanish and Argentine sports websites are giving full coverage to the race.

[Kenneth]

Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren, Alpine and Aston Martin are pure manufacturers and all the other teams use engines and other parts sourced from the manufacturers.

F1 is not a privateer series.

Only Ferrari, Mercedes and Alpine are full manufacturers teams in F1. Red Bull can also be considered as manufacturer team, although they buy engines from Honda (they are not Honda's factory team anymore as Honda did "quit" F1 (but not really)). All the other teams are buying parts from other manufacturers.

But I don't really understand what's your definition of privateers in this situation. Like they do build everything themselves? Or they buy everything possible from someone else?

In F1, the widely recognized definition of factory team is a team that build their own engines / engines are being built and developed exclusively for them.

[WRCStan]

Only Ferrari, Mercedes and Alpine are full manufacturers teams in F1. Red Bull can also be considered as manufacturer team, although they buy engines from Honda (they are not Honda's factory team anymore as Honda did "quit" F1 (but not really)). All the other teams are buying parts from other manufacturers.

But I don't really understand what's your definition of privateers in this situation. Like they do build everything themselves? Or they buy everything possible from someone else?

In F1, the widely recognized definition of factory team is a team that build their own engines / engines are being built and developed exclusively for them.

I think Mirek means manufacturers make series production cars for the consumer market, thus Ferrari, Mercedes, Alpine and Aston and not Red Bull. All F1 teams are considered to be constructors whatever the reality, they should build only what they race not supposed to be selling/sharing, or in series production, except engines.

Personally, I wouldn't call any teams privateers, just drivers. In a privateer series you would all be able to buy/rent cars off the shelf, maybe fiddle with them yourself. F1 may have payfer drivers, but that doesn't make it a privateer series, as you need the constructors in the series.

[Mirek]

But I don't really understand what's your definition of privateers in this situation. Like they do build everything themselves? Or they buy everything possible from someone else?

For the context of the discussion (i.e. manufacturer or privateer oriented WRC and the consequences of loosing the manufacturers) I split the privateeers and the manufacturers by the money running the show. Who makes what components is not important.

[typhoon]

It can be the greatest motorsport in the world.

No one knows because no one is watching it...

I would never deny the problems with WRC, but I think SRO is not the best comparison.

Numbers never lie, for 100% accurate results I can take from my email the press releases sent by Italian broadcaster Sky Sport after each WRC and GTWC events with tv figures, but the season was humiliating for WRC. You'd say that Valentino Rossi was competing etc etc. But you know what?

SRO made a clear strategy: in key markets/languages, they hired their own commentary crew (which are basically the same guys commenting for SRO on YouTube) and offered the "ready to broadcast" package to the networks. With everything else around: eye-catching graphics, chit chat, telemetry, spectacular camera angles, etc.

Result: Sky bought the rights (about 200.000 euros for the whole season, compared to almost 350.000 requested by WRC Promoter) and showed them, without paying anyone to comment it from their HQ in Milan, while for WRC they needed a commentary crew to comment it (one of them "borrowed" from football matches, so...). Audience? The peak season was about 70k for the Sardinian Power Stage. GTWC on the very same Sky Sport Arena channel (40-50k daily average audience) reached almost 120k audience for the Misano event, with around 100k on each event, even after Rossi retired.

Long story short....
.....Being greedy for TV rights (expensively paid) without investing anything back, well, can't bring much more than what we have right now. WRC Promoter needs to step up, now or never before it will be too late. And with this situation, you can bring 800HP monster cars with F1 aero, with basically whatever you want on... and nobody would care either way.

P.S.: younger fan base is going to follow F1 after Liberty Media's strategy. Not gonna say WRC needs its own "drive to survive", but try being fun and catchy at least. WRC fanbase built during the gold era is now "aging". Time to come up with something fresh.

[typhoon]

Yes it is, but sometimes you have to speculate to accumalate.

Not actually speculation, but rather wise investments in the weak areas of your company to make them work smoothly in the future. The Promoter has a lot of issues, let's start from that.


EIGHT CARS to do the greatest rally event of the planet? What a joke...
The promoter also runs the World Rallycross championship. They had two ridiculous years with only 7 electric cars or so, had a huge fire explosion with Loeb's team and said NOTHING about it. Made the teams run second class spec cars to finish the championship in HONG KONG or whatever... but for 2024 they are bringing ICE cars back because people stopped watching. Lets see if they can reverse the damage. I JUST HOPE they change stuff in WRC for 2025 cuz having EIGHT cars doint Monte Carlo is just to confirm that Rally1 must die, honestly....

Rally1 are actually for the history books, although I loved them from the stages. Their "rage" coming from hell to earth gives you goosebumps. But then it's over after the first 10 cars, if you're lucky. Really hope they will come up with Rally2+ asap.

[Kenneth]

For the context of the discussion (i.e. manufacturer or privateer oriented WRC and the consequences of loosing the manufacturers) I split the privateeers and the manufacturers by the money running the show. Who makes what components is not important.

Well in this case I think that F1 is completely irrelevant for this discusion because. The system is completely different to any other motorsport. You don't need to make road cars to be any relevant in F1. Does McLaren have any advantage over Williams just because they make road cars?

Ferrari and Alpine are clearly manufacturers without any doubt. But where to draw the line?

Daimler owns only 1/3 of the F1 team and the team is financialy sustainable, so Daimler actually doesn't finance the team, they do mainly technical support and of course make engines. So does that mean that Mercedes actually ISN'T manufacturer team?

I already mentioned McLaren. It was F1 team first, car manufacturer later (to help finance the team). But their system didn't change after they become to make road cars. So it helps them to only finance.

What about Alfa Romeo, were they manufacturer team? They were only a sponsor, no technical support at all.

Aston Martin is the most complicated case. You would suppose that Lagonda bought F1 team, but it's actually the opposite. Lawrence Stroll owned F1 Team first and bought Aston Martin Lagonda later, renaming the team after the car maker. They ofc share know how and engineers. Still they bought most of things on a technical side from Mercedes (engine, gearbox, wind tunnel, etc.).

Similar to McLaren, Red Bull was F1 Team first, but made several prototypes with Aston Martin (before Stroll bought them) and are making their first hypersport soon. Does that mean they are manufacturer?

See, the structure of F1's team is complicated and different to other motorsports so much that it doesn't make sense to take it as example for WRC.

With exception of Ferrari and Alpine no other team is 100% factory team by all thinkable definitions.

But on the other hand no team is fully customer like let's say JOTA in WEC, because every team had to design atleast some mandatory parts by themselves.

I think comparing WRC with WEC and Dakar is better.

[WRCStan]

Well in this case I think that F1 is completely irrelevant for this discusion because.

Agreed. You can only go so far with how things work for comparison or ideas.

Aston Martin just got $105million in prize money for finishing 5th in the championship. The money pumped into this series comes from kings, presidents, sheikhs, oligarchs, billionaires and politicians using it as a dick shaking proxy. Bernie Ecclestone was once taken to RAC rally and refused to get out the car because of the mud. Different world.

[WRCStan]

Typhoon, I would shift the greed to the FIA, they own the championship knocking costs on to promoter, which I understand they voluntarily walked into. GTWC is owned and promoted by the same SRO, there is an added value in that.

[Mirek]

Well in this case I think that F1 is completely irrelevant for this discusion because. The system is completely different to any other motorsport. You don't need to make road cars to be any relevant in F1. Does McLaren have any advantage over Williams just because they make road cars?

I didn't bring the F1 in the discussion. Please read what I answered to.

[typhoon]

Typhoon, I would shift the greed to the FIA, they own the championship knocking costs on to promoter, which I understand they voluntarily walked into. GTWC is owned and promoted by the same SRO, there is an added value in that.

I wouldn't, because that would barely mean that my company is not doing profits because the Country in which I'm legally based is throwing me taxes to pay. Those are part of the operative costs and I need to make the whole thing profitable. WRC Promoter is not doing so, what are we talking about? lol

[WRCStan]

I wouldn't, because that would barely mean that my company is not doing profits because the Country in which I'm legally based is throwing me taxes to pay. Those are part of the operative costs and I need to make the whole thing profitable. WRC Promoter is not doing so, what are we talking about? lol

Then SRO is its own taxman in direct comparison. Vertical integration.

But yeah, off-topic.

[denkimi]

Well in this case I think that F1 is completely irrelevant for this discusion because. The system is completely different to any other motorsport. You don't need to make road cars to be any relevant in F1. Does McLaren have any advantage over Williams just because they make road cars?

F1 is very relevant to the discussion of where the wrc should go, exactly because of the point you make here.

F1 cars have no relevance to road cars, and yet manufacturers are willing to spend hundereds of millions on them. So why should rally1 cars be relevant to road cars?
The whole idea that they have to be based on roadcars enormously limits the series, because there aren't much car manufacturers left, only a few big groups. If, like in f1 or dakar, everyone with enough money and skill would be allowed to build a wrc car, we could get rid of the dependance on 2 manufacturers.

[TypeR]

F1 vs WRC shortly..

F1 manu champions get tens of millions as prize money.
WRC manu champions get a trophy and a warm handshake.


Ofc F1 teams' ,,buy in'' is also more expensive, but the outcome is more profitable.. (all teams w points get some money back).

[fiscorpun]

Interesting point. It made me wonder Whats the point of "road relevance" if the coolest thing about race cars is the huge aerokits and modifications? Like, put a nice rear spoiler on my Corsa, make it wider on the tires, some nice Monster Energy colors...
But naaah, no one is doing that to their road cars. That would be a Success with my 8 year old cousin's school friends but yeah GOOD LUCK with girls from now on.... =P

Maybe a spec rollcage + "build ur car around that" could be a good solution?
I dont know if a rollcage + engine (whatever) + tires + an aerodynamic bubble is cheaper than a Rally2 car, especially if u could attract little companies building these parts, like in BTCC where they have 3 brands making engines (something like that). Is it?

[Mirek]

Interesting point. It made me wonder Whats the point of "road relevance" if the coolest thing about race cars is the huge aerokits and modifications? Like, put a nice rear spoiler on my Corsa, make it wider on the tires, some nice Monster Energy colors...
But naaah, no one is doing that to their road cars. That would be a Success with my 8 year old cousin's school friends but yeah GOOD LUCK with girls from now on.... =P

Maybe a spec rollcage + "build ur car around that" could be a good solution?
I dont know if a rollcage + engine (whatever) + tires + an aerodynamic bubble is cheaper than a Rally2 car, especially if u could attract little companies building these parts, like in BTCC where they have 3 brands making engines (something like that). Is it?

IMHO the relevance of the road relevance is a thing of the past.

I'd take it from strictly practical point of view. For WRC team which builds 5-10 cars per year it's definitely easier to build it fully in house from a spaceframe, especially with any kind of hybrid or EV. On the other hand for Rally2 which are being produced in dozens or hundreds it makes more sense to take a stock bodyshell from production and deliver it to some subcontractor which welds a rollcage inside (that's how it's being done anyway).

[Steve Boyd]

Maybe a spec rollcage + "build ur car around that" could be a good solution?Isn't that what a Rally1 car is?

[fiscorpun]

Well, yes, but wrc demands it to be hybrid, to look like a road car and theres probably some more stuff like homologation and manufacturer participation.
Tho Elfyn said recently that these tube frame cars with pannels are more expensive... Which I found weird. Maybe he was talking about the "tube frame car with hybrid engine"? Idk... I dont understand how those things work

[HKSjbg]

Some interesting points of view on this from Latvala, Abiteboul and Millener:

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/analysis-wrc-teams-weigh-in-on-rally2-replacing-rally1-debate/10568210/

[typhoon]

Some interesting points of view on this from Latvala, Abiteboul and Millener:

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/analysis-wrc-teams-weigh-in-on-rally2-replacing-rally1-debate/10568210/

Thankfully M-Sport’s team principal Richard Millener openly talked about what WRC Promoter is not doing right now:

"For me personally, we need a pinnacle. The funding is a very important part of the sport but if we have the following, the media interest and people around the sport, then the money comes with that element and that is maybe where we are missing at the moment. I think we need to think about how to make it more appealing and entertaining for people and how we can get more people to see the sport".

Not surprised, though, about Toyota's POV, since they recently announced that they will again produce ICE cars. Which makes totally sense when they go for 100% fossil-free sustainable fuels...

[skarderud]

It's quite easy to make WRC get more audience.

1: It's not a "pinnacle" if its not competition, whatever cars you bring up.
You need bigger competition.

2: you need some stories, not just a couple of drivers without identity just saying what the PR-department told you to say.
You need some Petter Solberg's, Marcus Grönholm's, Colin McRae's, and some local heros that fights the top-guys in theire home rally.

3: you can't hide your sport behind a paywall.
That is basic knowledge, but not for people watching an Excel-sheat....

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[WRCStan]

We have the Rally3 class so why not make that the Rally2 class and then we make this current Rally2 [the top tier] and we do a modification kit [to the cars],” he added.

So rename Rally3 to Rally2 but keep Rally2 as Rally2 and also have a Rally2+, and without Rally1. You could rename the championship WRC2. Which is exactly what you'd get. Genius.

Cyril is the only one grasping the bigger picture, no pretending there are quick fixes or it's this thing or that. Spot on.

[fiscorpun]

'Reduce' Rally1 cars back to WRC 2011-16 specs.... 'Upgrade' Rally2 cars up to WRC 2011-16 specs
Done. You are welcome, my friends.

[NaBUru38]

Whatever they do, please stop renumbering classes!

[wyler]

3D comparison of the most watched racing series based on their social media followings (maybe a bit of a surprise...)

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ENf8NxSZVNU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-70y_8Srj1c

[Morte66]

I never knew MotoGP was anything like that popular.

[fiscorpun]

I ALWAYS found weird that Sportcars racing audience is that small... THO they appear to be the most "hardcore", especially on the internet. It seems to me they are all true fans. Huge races, tons of entries, different classes. Thats NOT for the casual viewer... While Motogo and F1 numbers are huge but probably half of that is from casual and extracasual fans. Nascar is weirdly big too, and they are a national championship. But thats fine. Their "national Championships" are all big (nba, nhl, mlb...).
I'd guess WRC fans are also more hardcore, cuz its not easy for a casual fan to follow 3 days of event, right? Tho I wonder how much in those numbers are just casual people searching for "incredible rally crashes" haha
Sad not to see rallycross on that list :(

[doubled1978]

It does show that the WRC still matters, but that they have to find a way to make it affordable enough for manufactures to take part. There is no doubt whatsoever that the stage side spectacle is in a different league to anything else and in this sanitised world, people do look for that.

[Morte66]

Tho I wonder how much in those numbers are just casual people searching for "incredible rally crashes" haha

My old flatmate did that. He pretty much fell asleep watching a power stage.

[seb_sh]

I never knew MotoGP was anything like that popular.

MotoGP is quite big, and used to be bigger, they're actually in a bit of a crysis lately due to Rossi retiring, Marquez being injured and the fact that the grid is very Spain and Italy centered. They are making some efforts like introducing sprint races, they organise talent cups and junior series everywhere to try to have more variety in rider nationalities - apparently having a home hero is a big boost to TV ratings and the price they can charge for TV rights in that particular country.

WEC surprised me a bit, I guess it's a very specific crowd but they are very dedicated. The tickets for this years race were put up for sale last november and sold out in like 10 days - over 300.000 tickets gone in a few days 9 months before the event... sure some will be resold but still...

EDIT: i meant tickets for this year's Le Mans 24H race, for other races there's less enthusiasm

[fiscorpun]

Tbh before Drive to Survive, MotoGP numbers on social media (at least followers) were bigger than F1. I remember reading that, then I went and count the numbers myself just to be sure.... Hehe

[Kenneth]

Because F1 had no social media essentially before Liberty Media bought the series. Bernie was strongly against them and outright banned them.

So it was not like Drive to Survive boosted the numbers, but F1 started to properly use social media around the same time the first season of DtS came out.

[fiscorpun]

I was watching some of the 2011 moments and highlights to see how Kimi Raikkonen did in Rallying, I wasnt watching WRC yet back then. Dude, those cars were already great haha Not sure the specs but they looked reaally great. IDK why we keep thinking Rally1s are a necessity haha Sorry, thinking about this Rally1 vs Rally2 way too much, I know

[Mirek]

I was watching some of the 2011 moments and highlights to see how Kimi Raikkonen did in Rallying, I wasnt watching WRC yet back then. Dude, those cars were already great haha Not sure the specs but they looked reaally great. IDK why we keep thinking Rally1s are a necessity haha Sorry, thinking about this Rally1 vs Rally2 way too much, I know

2011 WRC cars were basically S2000 with 1.6T engine with 33 mm restrictor and larger wings. They had no center diff and relatively small power and torque compared to today's Rally1.

You can consider them to be pretty similar to what the Rally2+ would be.

[doubled1978]

2011 WRC cars were basically S2000 with 1.6T engine with 33 mm restrictor and larger wings. They had no center diff and relatively small power and torque compared to today's Rally1.

You can consider them to be pretty similar to what the Rally2+ would be.

Yes, and I don’t recall ever feeling that they weren’t quick enough or noisy enough when I went to watch them. Just having them rev higher than the previous 2l cars made them sound ok.

[Mirek]

They were great on the loose surface but quite boring on asphalt. First time I saw them on asphalt was Monte Carlo 2012 where Ogier and Abbring in Fabias S2000 were more spectacular than all the WRC.

[lmmjvss]

If we get Rally2 as the top class, would that make easy for us to see Valentino Rossi trying one race? Cuz THAT would be fun

[doubled1978]

If we get Rally2 as the top class, would that make easy for us to see Valentino Rossi trying one race? Cuz THAT would be fun

Almost zero chance I would think. Rossi is a BMW factory driver in the WEC and GTWCE currently, so putting all his energies into that.

[wyler]

If we get Rally2 as the top class, would that make easy for us to see Valentino Rossi trying one race? Cuz THAT would be fun

when he did, was not so special, kinda same as raikkonen.

[CL16F@n]

have not been active on the forum for some time...

what is the status of three manufacturers rumored to be interested in joining WRC in 2025? seems like that disappeared

[skarderud]

Is it any disqusion in FIA the size of rallycars?
The Fabia/yaris etc is a small car, if they go back to focus/impreza size cars, will it do any positive for the sport?
I think the security is better in a bigger car, the speed wil also be a little lower.
But the looks will be better and probably more spectacle?

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[EstWRC]

So FIA is making a survey about WRC

Let your minds free

https://yonder.online-host.solutions/ASP/P024491/StartSurvey.asp?project=P024491

[Eli]

So FIA is making a survey about WRC

Let your minds free

https://yonder.online-host.solutions/ASP/P024491/StartSurvey.asp?project=P024491

Looks like someone actually read our posts here, only took them 10 years (since the last survey).

[Andre Oliveira]

Very good survey. Share with most of people you know.

[Sal yet again]

This survey should be pinned! Anyone else volunteered to take part in the focus group(s)?

[TypeR]

Very unique survey :D

[WRCStan]

Some of these questions are pretty loaded;

Should cars be limited to 300hp for safety reasons? - Why even ask that?

Is €300,000 the suitable cost cap? - How does Johnny Q Public know what's right?

If cars were less technical and expensive it could mean more manufacturers, do you support less technical and expensive cars?

Why not just be open with the intent - "Should Rally2 be top class?"

[rallyfiend]

Geez, it's a horrible survey.

Did a high school intern put it together?

[typhoon]

Lol I reached the maximum 1024 characters on the last page. Hopefully our POV would help out the WRC being great again as in the past.

[typhoon]

Geez, it's a horrible survey.

Did a high school intern put it together?

It was probably made for a more general public and not really for hardcore fans tbh.

[WRCStan]

Lol I reached the maximum 1024 characters on the last page. Hopefully our POV would help out the WRC being great again as in the past.

Our views will either be used to confirm the riding narrative or we'll never hear of the results. Suggestions are a waste of time.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I wasnt sure about the question if WRC drivers are entertaining... do they mean their driving or their personality?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It was probably made for a more general public and not really for hardcore fans tbh.

No I'd say the opposite... the general public couldn't answer 90% of it.

[er88]

Hopefully everyone included "sound/noise" in the extra comment section at the end. I wouldn't believe anyone on here if they say they don't get goosebumps/excitement when they hear the first car a mile away in a forest.

[Eli]

Hopefully everyone included "sound/noise" in the extra comment section at the end. I wouldn't believe anyone on here if they say they don't get goosebumps/excitement when they hear the first car a mile away in a forest.

I didn't unfortunately, however I did ask for night stages on tarmac rallies, rallies such as Wales GB (if it'll ever come back) and Sweden, wouldn't hold my breath for it though.

[Eli]

Hopefully everyone included "sound/noise" in the extra comment section at the end. I wouldn't believe anyone on here if they say they don't get goosebumps/excitement when they hear the first car a mile away in a forest.

Edit: Double post by accident.

[fiscorpun]

What a WASTE of survey! This was ChatGPT made, no doubt on that
WHY all the repetitive useless questions? What.... "WRC should be unique because it takes place on a variety of surfaces"
...Like.... WHAT ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT???? Jeezzz haha

Also, those questions about top drivers personalities and inspirational.. whatever.. thats so weird. Of course its more interesting to listen to Oliver Solberg, Mads, Latvala, Lukyanuk, Craig talking. They are "more interesting" than three words Ott or weird humor Kalle. But thats fine. The focus is not HOW COOL they are... its who have the biggest balls to drive faster. Weird questions IMO. Like, they are asking tik tok kids questions for grown mens like we. WE watch Rally. Tik Tok kids will NOT WATCH rally. They will only see a clip of a rally crash and make a weird face "REACTING TO RALLY CRASHES"... f* off...

[lmmjvss]

Lappis was testing the new Hankook tires for 2025? The general comments on Formula E about them are not that good.
If we get rally2s for 2025 is going to be a shame if we dont get tire war :(

[Andre Oliveira]

The deal is done. Hankook will be.

[macebig]

Bring back roadside repairs, go to Rally 2s, give each rally its character back, allow private firms to build cars were my comments in a nutshell.

[Rallyper]

Bring back roadside repairs, go to Rally 2s, give each rally its character back, allow private firms to build cars were my comments in a nutshell.

Roadside reparations can easily be regulated. Areas can be prepared. Spares can be filtered. Mechanics can be regulated. etz. etz. Should be right direction of future WRC.

[macebig]

Exactly. It's very easy to use a local dealership, a fuel station from a sponsor or something else to set up a service zone that is unique and different while opening up to new crowds. Service Park as it currently is just makes WRC seem like circuit racing.

[WRCStan]

It's very easy to use a local dealership, a fuel station from a sponsor or something else to set up a service zone that is unique and different while opening up to new crowds.

It's 2024, not 1994. Think of the risk assessments, permissions, personnel, portaloos, barriers involved. A fuel station does not want crowds of people stood watching crews working on their cars - who won't be customers, and neither does the championship want that image. Be realistic, not, passive permissive: "It's very easy".

[rallyfiend]

Exactly. It's very easy to use a local dealership, a fuel station from a sponsor or something else to set up a service zone that is unique and different while opening up to new crowds. Service Park as it currently is just makes WRC seem like circuit racing.

I think you're massively underestimating the amount of space required for this......

[Rallyper]

I think you're massively underestimating the amount of space required for this......

On the opposite. So many areas can be used. Environmental regulation to be followed of course. But nothing hard to execute.
How do you think refuel services are currently arranged? This is easier and can be managed at same spot (except from 50 m away) and not all cars arrive at the same time.

[WRCStan]

Refuels don't exactly pull in the crowds, take much time per car nor do they need team vehicles and bodies. If the whole point is to draw in the crowds with longer than 3 minute repair windows, you will need a large space. If that is over thinking it, then there is nothing being wished for that doesn't already happen.

[Mirek]

Is it any disqusion in FIA the size of rallycars?
The Fabia/yaris etc is a small car, if they go back to focus/impreza size cars, will it do any positive for the sport?
I think the security is better in a bigger car, the speed wil also be a little lower.
But the looks will be better and probably more spectacle?

It may be hard to believe but the bodyshell of today's Fabia is wider than that of C4 which was used for the WRC car 15 years ago and it's not even much shorter. It's way bigger than the first generation used for Fabia WRC, not speaking about even smaller Peugeot 206. The cars grow bigger in time. The width is the only dimension which plays a signifficant role in a rallycar safety BUT it is irrelevant for the Rally1 cars which don't use stock bodyshells.

[Mirek]

Roadside reparations can easily be regulated. Areas can be prepared. Spares can be filtered. Mechanics can be regulated. etz. etz. Should be right direction of future WRC.

How? Good luck findinfg areas for roadside repair in 2024 traffic. Sorry but that may be possible in deserted areas of Sweden but absolutely impossible in many other WRC countries.

[Morte66]

"Out of the different eras of WRC cars, what do you think were the most impressive to watch?"

How am I supposed to answer this? I have only watched one era that I could name, and I can't skip or say "don't know".

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Anyone who is against the idea of Rally2+, try to remember how superior even the current Rally2 car is compared to the WRC cars of 20 years ago.

This shows some of the improvements in performance, braking and cornering as well as being lighter, safer, more efficient and cheaper.

https://youtu.be/dzQr2CEBXgY?si=UKjztrUQTfMRuQ7n

Then imagine Rally2+ with even more power and bigger aero...

[PLuto]

Anyone who is against the idea of Rally2+, try to remember how superior even the current Rally2 car is compared to the WRC cars of 20 years ago.

This shows some of the improvements in performance, braking and cornering as well as being lighter, safer, more efficient and cheaper.

https://youtu.be/dzQr2CEBXgY?si=UKjztrUQTfMRuQ7n

Then imagine Rally2+ with even more power and bigger aero...

Rally2+ (in version current Rally2 cars with bigger restrictor and added aero) are nonsense. If they want something between Rally1 and Rally2, it should be with different regulations (of course can be based with lot of things on current Rally2)...

[PLuto]

So FIA is making a survey about WRC

Let your minds free

https://yonder.online-host.solutions/ASP/P024491/StartSurvey.asp?project=P024491

For me it looks like this survey was generated by AI...

[fiscorpun]

Anyone who is against the idea of Rally2+, try to remember how superior even the current Rally2 car is compared to the WRC cars of 20 years ago.

This shows some of the improvements in performance, braking and cornering as well as being lighter, safer, more efficient and cheaper.

https://youtu.be/dzQr2CEBXgY?si=UKjztrUQTfMRuQ7n

Then imagine Rally2+ with even more power and bigger aero...

Really cool video! Thanks for sharing it mate!

Tho Im not sure Im onboard with this Rally2+ idea some of you fellas here keep talking about.
I mean, I dont actually KNOW how that would work. Cuz it gotte be CHEAP.... AND it gotte be 'quick' to "change back" to normal Rally2.
Like... If its just a matter of having a wider air intake on the engine ("One piece") and a new bigger rear wing ("One piece"), than fine. Cuz that would be relatvely simple and cheap for someone on a tighter budget like Kajetan or Chris Ingram to do (upgrade to R2+) and compete in a WRC round, but then they can easily change back to a normal Rally2 to compete at the national levels they usually compete. If its NOT THIS EASY to go form Rally2 to R2+ then to return from R2+ to Rally2, then its not the beeeeest ideia IMO.

OF COURSE there would be WAY MORE entries in WRC. Richier or sponsored guys could do it. Imagine Monte Carlo 2025 with Nasser Al Athya, Loeb, CARLOS SAINZ, Paddon... haha These fellas can find the budget to modified a Rally2 to R2+ and never bother that "Oh, cant race them on my national championship now".

U'know? am I thinking about this in the right way?

[WRCStan]

Anyone who is against the idea of Rally2+, try to remember how superior even the current Rally2 car is compared to the WRC cars of 20 years ago.

This shows some of the improvements in performance, braking and cornering as well as being lighter, safer, more efficient and cheaper.

https://youtu.be/dzQr2CEBXgY?si=UKjztrUQTfMRuQ7n

Then imagine Rally2+ with even more power and bigger aero...

It's not so much the tech specs I'm against but the short-sightedness and the logic that it'll cure all of life's problems that I dislike. Even if you call your package Rally1, privateers in the 'main class' will still be undesired by those at the top, it'll still be difficult to afford, it won't attract manufacturers, it's still very little road-relevancy, it'll still be seen as historic motoring in 2030... etc etc.

Good watch though thanks.

[denkimi]

I think you're massively underestimating the amount of space required for this......
you could limit it to wrc1 cars. and limit it to 1 van and 2 technicians per competitor.

and even when you allow it for everyone, remember that there will ever only be a few vans at the same place in the same time, due to the limited time and the starting time differences.

whatever the solution, the lack of service these days ruins a lot of great fights. a small issues nowadays can create great problems because some small part is not available.

[PLuto]

you could limit it to wrc1 cars. and limit it to 1 van and 2 technicians per competitor.

and even when you allow it for everyone, remember that there will ever only be a few vans at the same place in the same time, due to the limited time and the starting time differences.

whatever the solution, the lack of service these days ruins a lot of great fights. a small issues nowadays can create great problems because some small part is not available.

1 van and 2 technicians per competitor is same like now with TFZ, and you can see how difficult for organisers is to manage it. And allow "competition" of service wans to travel between stages like in the past is nonsense...

[Mirek]

Anyone who is against the idea of Rally2+, try to remember how superior even the current Rally2 car is compared to the WRC cars of 20 years ago.

This shows some of the improvements in performance, braking and cornering as well as being lighter, safer, more efficient and cheaper.

https://youtu.be/dzQr2CEBXgY?si=UKjztrUQTfMRuQ7n

Then imagine Rally2+ with even more power and bigger aero...

I am against the Rally2+ for absolutely different reasons.

1) It must make Rally2 cars more expensive for the customers, there is no other option.

2) It must make either Rally2 cars less reliable or even more expensive because they were designed for the power they have now, not for what they would have with larger restrictors.

3) It would make national and regional rallying more expensive for the reasons listed above.

4) It would not bring a miracle drug for the WRC. It will make 1-2 seasons more interesting before the top 1-2 teams start to dominate again but all the cons for the national and regional competition will stay.

5) The idea that all Rally2 producers would automatically join the WRC is naive and more likely than not it won't happen.

The thing is that R5/Rally2 has been an exceptionally successful formula for national and regional rallying and I am afraid of what intoduction of them to the top WRC level would cause not for the WRC, but for the other levels of rallying.

[lmmjvss]

Rally2+ is nonsense. It would cost a lot to upgrade the whole car. Larger restrictors and better aero will required better suspensions that will require stronger gearboxes, that will require more stuff... Its going to get expensive and no one would jump in because these modified cars would not be allowed to race in national championship.... And Msport would complain that just 2 guys bought these cars because they are still expensive.
Rally2 for top class in my opinion. And dont worry, the guy who works at the local restaurant will not buy a rally2 yaris and starting beating the guys that race wrc, wrc2, erc, national series... The talent is the "something more than just buying rally2 car"

[Steve Boyd]

Really cool video! Thanks for sharing it mate!

Tho Im not sure Im onboard with this Rally2+ idea some of you fellas here keep talking about.
I mean, I dont actually KNOW how that would work. Cuz it gotte be CHEAP.... AND it gotte be 'quick' to "change back" to normal Rally2.
Like... If its just a matter of having a wider air intake on the engine ("One piece") and a new bigger rear wing ("One piece"), than fine. Cuz that would be relatvely simple and cheap for someone on a tighter budget like Kajetan or Chris Ingram to do (upgrade to R2+) and compete in a WRC round, but then they can easily change back to a normal Rally2 to compete at the national levels they usually compete. If its NOT THIS EASY to go form Rally2 to R2+ then to return from R2+ to Rally2, then its not the beeeeest ideia IMO.

OF COURSE there would be WAY MORE entries in WRC. Richier or sponsored guys could do it. Imagine Monte Carlo 2025 with Nasser Al Athya, Loeb, CARLOS SAINZ, Paddon... haha These fellas can find the budget to modified a Rally2 to R2+ and never bother that "Oh, cant race them on my national championship now".

U'know? am I thinking about this in the right way?If these cars were run by privateers who did their own preparation in their own garages then you might be right.

Nobody anywhere near the top of the sport does that these days. All the leading cars are prepared by businesses who will charge drivers whatever they think they can to run a car on an event for them. These outfits often have different cars for tar and gravel to save the time & cost of swapping from one spec to another. There's no way they'd be converting Rally2+ to Rally2 and back again if that involved a load of body & mechanical parts. If Kajetanowicz or Ingram wants a car for WRC, ERC or a National event they shop around and see what deals are on. They don't necessarily use the same car on different events - even if it comes from the same preparation outfit (and don't let the car registration number fool you - plates are easier to swap than any other parts!). It's all down to whether the vinyl wrap is easier/cheaper to change than the mechanicals.

[Mirek]

If these cars were run by privateers who did their own preparation in their own garages then you might be right.

Nobody anywhere near the top of the sport does that these days. All the leading cars are prepared by businesses who will charge drivers whatever they think they can to run a car on an event for them. These outfits often have different cars for tar and gravel to save the time & cost of swapping from one spec to another. There's no way they'd be converting Rally2+ to Rally2 and back again if that involved a load of body & mechanical parts. If Kajetanowicz or Ingram wants a car for WRC, ERC or a National event they shop around and see what deals are on. They don't necessarily use the same car on different events - even if it comes from the same preparation outfit (and don't let the car registration number fool you - plates are easier to swap than any other parts!). It's all down to whether the vinyl wrap is easier/cheaper to change than the mechanicals.

Yes. Anyway this very idea of swapping the parts for WRC and national rallying failed miserably already with RRC/WRC and there is no reason why it shall work now.

[Morte66]

If these cars were run by privateers who did their own preparation in their own garages then you might be right.

Nobody anywhere near the top of the sport does that these days.

On a tangent inspired by that... We hear the term "local heroes" in threads like this. But how much does being local count for? Has a local driver done the stages in (say) the Central European Rally before, do they have better knowledge than WRC drivers with all their recce and study of previous onboards and so on?

Once you get beyond "Scandi-Baltic drivers are more familiar with snow", how much does being local count for in rally driving?

[Rallyper]

How? Good luck findinfg areas for roadside repair in 2024 traffic. Sorry but that may be possible in deserted areas of Sweden but absolutely impossible in many other WRC countries.

"Roadside" does not litterally mean just beside heavy traffic. It means of course areas you can put a reasonable cars out of traffic.

However I think we´ve happened to avoid the main reason; remote services may attract more spectators even out of stages, making WRC back to the roots again.

[Morte66]

In this thread, people have talked about restrictors and aero and powertrains (especially clever diffs), and how they affect "spectacularness".

But I wonder, is suspension a bigger factor? Group B cars had a lot of power, but they also bounced around on uneven ground. It seems to me (not an expert) that modern suspension is so good it just eats the bumps and makes a lot of rally stages look not so different from circuit racing as the car goes between corners.

[Rallyper]

Rally2+ (in version current Rally2 cars with bigger restrictor and added aero) are nonsense. If they want something between Rally1 and Rally2, it should be with different regulations (of course can be based with lot of things on current Rally2)...

Maybe I missed your earlier quotes, but can you develope why it is nonsense?
Edit: read it above.

[Morte66]

I am against the Rally2+ for absolutely different reasons.

1) It must make Rally2 cars more expensive for the customers, there is no other option.

2) It must make either Rally2 cars less reliable or even more expensive because they were designed for the power they have now, not for what they would have with larger restrictors.

3) It would make national and regional rallying more expensive for the reasons listed above.

4) It would not bring a miracle drug for the WRC. It will make 1-2 seasons more interesting before the top 1-2 teams start to dominate again but all the cons for the national and regional competition will stay.

5) The idea that all Rally2 producers would automatically join the WRC is naive and more likely than not it won't happen.

The thing is that R5/Rally2 has been an exceptionally successful formula for national and regional rallying and I am afraid of what intoduction of them to the top WRC level would cause not for the WRC, but for the other levels of rallying.

Thank you for the well-reasoned argument.

I don't know much about rallying, but I do know the FIA. It is entirely their style to ditch the top category, try to pretend that they're not downgrading it by beefing up WRC2, and spoil the rest of rallying. If they even think about the rest of rallying, they won't see it as their problem.

[wyler]

i think the problem is just how we call such new cars...

i'm totally against the rally2 solution. we already have a similar thing that's erc and it's not the dreamland people see for the top tier. there's the need of a top tier, clearly.

so keep the rally1 name and make a reg that's a step (backe if you want, but who cares?) toward wrc spec style, that's proven a good balance. it can be cost capped at half a current rally 1 , and that's still nearly 2x a rally2, which mean space for sensing the difference between the 2, but way more affordardable if costs is the problem (which i don't buy, btw).

still, thing is: how a top tier car should be? engine-wise (power source) and maybe suspension/tyre also, more than aero/restrictor.

[Steve Boyd]

On a tangent inspired by that... We hear the term "local heroes" in threads like this. But how much does being local count for? Has a local driver done the stages in (say) the Central European Rally before, do they have better knowledge than WRC drivers with all their recce and study of previous onboards and so on?

Once you get beyond "Scandi-Baltic drivers are more familiar with snow", how much does being local count for in rally driving?Decades ago when WRGB was known as the RAC Rally and the stages were secret with no recce or notes it was a very big deal. The leading British crews would frequently finish in the top 5 overall, even if they rarely won. Top Finnish & Swedish drivers would enter the British Championship to get experience of the stages that would be used at the end of the year on the RAC Rally to ensure they had the best chance of winning.

These days, I doubt it means much apart from, as you say Scandinavian & Baltic area drivers being better able to judge tyre selection and grip on snow than WRC novices from other parts of the world. French drivers with experience of winter alpine conditions may have a similar advantage on the Monte but once a driver has had a couple of seasons in WRC they should have learned all they need to know and if they are any good the "local hero" should be well behind.

[seb_sh]

So I've done the famous survey and unfortunately even the survey itself gave me a negative impression. First of all it was quite "weak", having completed several such surveys for F1, WEC and MotoGP in the past, the WRC survey felt cheap and superficial. Also for the other categories some questions were more open, for example instead of some pre defined phrases like "WRC should be exciting because this and that" you could choose 5 keywords that define the series out of like 30 options.

Overall I felt that this survey is not being used as a tool to learn the audience and what they want and instead someone already has a plan and has already made a decision and this survey will be used to justify whatever that decision is.

What follows is speculation on my part but I think the rumors of Rally2 in 2025 and Rally2+ in 2026 are true. There were some people saying on twitter that the plan for 2024 was to reduce costs by reducing fly away events and then teams would run 4 cars each. I think that might have been the last attempt to save Rally1 as it is and it failed because probably one team couldn't do it. Now they are in panic mode and the 2025 season with Rally2 will be a knee jerk reaction. I think this is a mistake and will ruin Rally2 in the long run. Probably the best solution would have been Rally1- (simpler, less expensive cars between current Rally1 and Rally2) but that needed to be planned out in advance and they failed to do that.

[Mirek]

"Roadside" does not litterally mean just beside heavy traffic. It means of course areas you can put a reasonable cars out of traffic.

However I think we´ve happened to avoid the main reason; remote services may attract more spectators even out of stages, making WRC back to the roots again.

How do you create areas out of traffic in let's say Rallye Monte Carlo where everyone has to use the very same mountain narrow roads because there are no alternative routes?

You can ask anyone who actually organizes rallies and I think he would send you to hell with your idea, sorry.

[Mirek]

In this thread, people have talked about restrictors and aero and powertrains (especially clever diffs), and how they affect "spectacularness".

But I wonder, is suspension a bigger factor? Group B cars had a lot of power, but they also bounced around on uneven ground. It seems to me (not an expert) that modern suspension is so good it just eats the bumps and makes a lot of rally stages look not so different from circuit racing as the car goes between corners.

Current suspension level is a result of decades of development and it's impossible to go back in time. You simply can't put dampers worse than on an average 2024 stock car to a Rally1. It's same as if you asked them to use 1980' tyres. Besides that the suspension is major safety factor. Bouncing cars are dangerous.

[typhoon]

For me it looks like this survey was generated by AI...

It was definitely NOT generated by AI, instead by someone who already took a decision and need a "people's justification" for something they want to announce and ratify.

[becher]

The talk about a cheaper Rally1 gets me thinking. In what way would cheaper Rally1 help the championship? New manufacturers won't join because of that, more privateers is questionable at best as Rally2 is such a attractive market for them. Current manufacturers running more cars? Maybe.

[lmmjvss]

What cheaper Rally1 car even mean?
Removing the hybrid? Think of the 17-21 cars, even those were more expensive than what privateers could afford. Just go for Rally2, its going to be fun. We talked here, the stories are the hooking part. The cars are not THAT espetacular? No, but we will get used and the entries will make up for it. We will have all the names in one class, finally. Tierry, Sebs, Oli, Evans, Paddon, Lappi, Meeke, Ingram, Lukyanuk, Nasser... It is going to be a fun watch! How can we not agree with that

[drive]

Yes, keep dreaming that Thierry, Ott, Kalle would run the same spec cars as other 'locals' or say Ingram etc... 😀 still will be top 5-7 drivers and the rest....

[Kenneth]

What cheaper Rally1 car even mean?
Removing the hybrid?

Use road car based engines, use cheaper material for body panel, for suspension and stuff use only parts that everybody can buy instead of purpose built parts... it's not that hard.

[doubled1978]

It’s very evident that even we, the supposed ‘real’ rally fans that are more than casual observers, can’t even come close to agreeing a way forward for WRC, so why would the FIA/Promoter listen to us, survey or not?
Like others have said, I think that some decisions have probably already been made in principal, and if the desire is to get much higher number of cars competing in the ‘main’ class there is only one way to achieve that in the short term.

[typhoon]

Use road car based engines, use cheaper material for body panel, for suspension and stuff use only parts that everybody can buy instead of purpose built parts... it's not that hard.

Again, with the budgets the WRC teams have (think about Hyundai's 80M), in less than 2 years you'll be at the start point: almost the same costs. They'll spend them over useless small wings and aero around the mirrors or on the roof.

And btw things like panels are just 1-2% of the whole budget needed for building the car.

With some adjustments, Rally2 will be more than fun.

[Mirek]

Use road car based engines, use cheaper material for body panel, for suspension and stuff use only parts that everybody can buy instead of purpose built parts... it's not that hard.

All what you present woud safe a fraction of a seaon cost and it would not bring any new manufacturers.

I know I keep repeating it all the time but the way to attract wealthy customers is to offer them more value (in this case obviously marketing one) not to give them a discount on old rusty goods.

[Steve Boyd]

If they really want to make the WRC less expensive to compete in they need to reduce the number of events. Minor reductions to the cost of each car won't make that much difference, neither will making the events shorter. They're already spending the best part of a week on site at each event for 2½ days rallying. Reducing the competition by ½ day isn't going to make any difference. Ten rallies of 5 days is much cheaper than 25 rallies of 2 days.

I'm also not sure that "roadside" service is practical in the modern world but more remote service should be possible as long as the service crews have to check in and out over a limited time frame either side of the time that the competing car is there. You won't need as much space as a full service area. It can be done that way - I've experienced it as a service crew on events in the past.

[RS]

All what you present woud safe a fraction of a seaon cost and it would not bring any new manufacturers.

I know I keep repeating it all the time but the way to attract wealthy customers is to offer them more value (in this case obviously marketing one) not to give them a discount on old rusty goods.

In lieu of an answer to that what do we do? Nothing? Cost cap?

BTW, anyone know what the costs are for a privateer to rent a Rally2 car for a WRC event vs a Rally1 car?

[TypeR]

If I remember correctly, then couple of years ago the difference was roughly 3x. Around 70k vs 200k eur per wrc event + the price also depends how much PET you want to do.

[Mirek]

In lieu of an answer to that what do we do? Nothing? Cost cap?

That's a million Dollar question. Anyway reducing cost works as a measure to keep those already in the sport from leaving but it will not help bringing new ones. What you need is to give them a reason to join and they wil never join anything just because it's cheap. On one hand it's quite obvious what reason they need and want - exposure and a story to sell. That's the simple part of the answer. On the other hand the difficult part is how to bring it. What to sell to global audience of 21st century 20' and 30'? I think that large part of the problem is in the common uncertainty of the car market future. Will it go full electric? Will there be a CE ban? Will everything change again because the plans turn out to be unrealistic? Will the car owners turn to be only passangers? What percentage of car buyers will seek driving excitement and will that even be a thing in the future? What if different continents opt for a completely different way? Will there be a global marketing possible? Plenty of questions, few answers.

[seb_sh]

That's a million Dollar question. Anyway reducing cost works as a measure to keep those already in the sport from leaving but it will not help bringing new ones. What you need is to give them a reason to join and they wil never join anything just because it's cheap. On one hand it's quite obvious what reason they need and want - exposure and a story to sell. That's the simple part of the answer. On the other hand the difficult part is how to bring it. What to sell to global audience of 21st century 20' and 30'? I think that large part of the problem is in the common uncertainty of the car market future. Will it go full electric? Will there be a CE ban? Will everything change again because the plans turn out to be unrealistic? Will the car owners turn to be only passangers? What percentage of car buyers will seek driving excitement and will that even be a thing in the future? What if different continents opt for a completely different way? Will there be a global marketing possible? Plenty of questions, few answers.

What I see is that all succesfull series have some sort of cap, be it financial or performance, to ensure an interesting championship. I think that the "old" fully open model of development is dead because the current technologies are at a point of diminishing returns (big spend for small gain). Either you embrace new technologies or you put some cap and aim for entartainment. WRC is as usual behind the times so it's a big question what they will do in the future.

Will some UFO going 200kmh flying above my head in the forest make me buy the car, personally probably not, but it will raise awareness of the brand.

An option, go the WEC route: put any car in the windtunnel and put a maximum limit on downforce/drag, put the engine on the dyno and put a maximum limit on power and torque, allow any bodywork and any engine configuration. Set a target maximum limit, this helps any new manufacturer analyse costs/return and know that it won't end up in a spending war. Then it's a business case, otherwise the budget is always open, Hyundai probably spends 10x or 20x to advertise in footbal compared to WRC so if the value rises costs can easily rise too with the current setup. The future of motorsport does not lie in formulas that worked in the past.

[COD]

I have not read the thread, but my suggestion:

Plus kit for current Wrc2 cars: larger restrictor, and other means to create more noise, maybe some bodykit and that is it. Possibility for national/erc drivers to buy the kit if they want to participate in main class WRC on some events

[seb_sh]

I have not read the thread, but my suggestion:

Plus kit for current Wrc2 cars: larger restrictor, and other means to create more noise, maybe some bodykit and that is it. Possibility for national/erc drivers to buy the kit if they want to participate in main class WRC on some events

you should read the thread :)

[TypeR]

you should read the thread :)
Yes, read the thread... and you get 0 new answers.

According to master engineers and racinc-doctors.. absolutely nothing would bring new manus or change anything.
Cheaper cars/engines, more ,,street-car'' parts etc wouldn't make any change.

Easy and short advice to bring back the excitement:

- easier/cheaper cars for more racing element
- SD as quali stage for picking starting order for Friday...which bring lots of more people to watch the SD and all the attention that goes with it + starting pos/quali strategy.

It's just the FIA and WRC that don't do anything and scratch thei 8alls.
Look at Dakar.. Renault/Dacia got the two of the biggest names under their belt for 2025+ dakar campaign..

Companies have tons of money, it is just how different series can sell it to them.

In that case, wrc has failed to the max.

[seb_sh]

Yes, read the thread... and you get 0 new answers.

According to master engineers and racinc-doctors.. absolutely nothing would bring new manus or change anything.
Cheaper cars/engines, more ,,street-car'' parts etc wouldn't make any change.

Easy and short advice to bring back the excitement:

- easier/cheaper cars for more racing element
- SD as quali stage for picking starting order for Friday...which bring lots of more people to watch the SD and all the attention that goes with it + starting pos/quali strategy.

that's just your opinion, I think it's disrespectful of people who came here and spent time to explain some things and write opinions and discuss to say "i don't care what has been discussed, here's my opinion", maybe it's ok for tiktok

also maybe spend some time to spell check if you want to be taken seriously

[seb_sh]

Okay. grammar-steward.. it is racing* not racinc.
But let it be.

Talking about ,,spell check''..
Thank god your spelling is 257% correct with all the capital letters and punctuation marks.

+ I also come here, spend my time to express my opinion about different topics and stuff..


And about tiktok.. I have never been there or used it, so I can't say anything about your favourite sites.

aha! very good! I suppose you agree with the rest of my post then? :)

[TypeR]

aha! very good! I suppose you agree with the rest of my post then? :)
No.
Try to spell check your post and wait for engineers to like your post.

[seb_sh]

No.
Try to spell check your post and wait for engineers to like your post.

Then I'm out of luck, there are no engineers here, only forum users... :(

[typhoon]

I was doing a social media review of Rallye Monte Carlo and yeah, basically the post that engaged more people than everything else combined was the "fireworks" moment (30" video played more than 10 million times!), with loads of people asking the follows:

- where they can see the WRC
- bring the WRC to their country (super-engaged people from the USA)
- asking more free and live content on the above-mentioned social media.

WRC needs to work on "sell an epic story" (without asking out-of-this-world prices for TV rights that nobody will pay!) and invest on making each WRC event unique and spectacular. With which cars it won't make any huge difference tbh.

After reviewing the social media performances, I decided that big part of the survey I completed was focused on the "spectacle", with a lot of suggestions I made them to spice the weekends up, including gaming arenas in the fan areas, music shows at the service park, captivating merch, more autograph/meet-the-heroes sessions, different SSS (Acropolis with Olympic Stadium, Mexico with the streets of Guanajuato, horse track in Sweden, etc.), improvement on both opening ceremony and podium finishes (with ledwall/lighting-fitted ramps and DJs performing), creating "arenas" with screens/merch/VIP Skyboxes to sell) on specific special stages during the weekends (Sweden and Finland are masters on that!), etc.

There's so much to do, so it's quite overdue for the Promoter to open its pocket and invest, if wants some proper return and growth of the commercial side of the championship (more events, more manufacturers, more fans, more MONEY).

[seb_sh]

I was doing a social media review of Rallye Monte Carlo and yeah, basically the post that engaged more people than everything else combined was the "fireworks" moment (30" video played more than 10 million times!), with loads of people asking the follows:

- where they can see the WRC
- bring the WRC to their country (super-engaged people from the USA)
- asking more free and live content on the above-mentioned social media.

WRC needs to work on "sell an epic story" (without asking out-of-this-world prices for TV rights that nobody will pay!) and invest on making each WRC event unique and spectacular. With which cars it won't make any huge difference tbh.

After reviewing the social media performances, I decided that big part of the survey I completed was focused on the "spectacle", with a lot of suggestions I made them to spice the weekends up, including gaming arenas in the fan areas, music shows at the service park, captivating merch, more autograph/meet-the-heroes sessions, different SSS (Acropolis with Olympic Stadium, Mexico with the streets of Guanajuato, horse track in Sweden, etc.), improvement on both opening ceremony and podium finishes (with ledwall/lighting-fitted ramps and DJs performing), creating "arenas" with screens/merch/VIP Skyboxes to sell) on specific special stages during the weekends (Sweden and Finland are masters on that!), etc.

There's so much to do, so it's quite overdue for the Promoter to open its pocket and invest, if wants some proper return and growth of the commercial side of the championship (more events, more manufacturers, more fans, more MONEY).

Indeed, the WRC is quite behind on promotion, I see a lot of people looking at short videos thinking it's cool but if there's no "story" to follow those people are soon lost. It's also why I think it'd good to "cast a wider net" to promote future talents, having an elite few is VERY dangerous. If you look in the past whenever the top class was accesible we got more top level drivers from different countries with a lot of fans. I think there's a lot of narrow thinking in organising and promoting WRC and I fear for the future. Meanwhile I'll be attending other series live (cough WEC cough), 8 Rally1 cars is not worth if for me.

[WRCStan]

Yes, read the thread... and you get 0 new answers.

According to master engineers and racinc-doctors.. absolutely nothing would bring new manus or change anything.
Cheaper cars/engines, more ,,street-car'' parts etc wouldn't make any change.

Easy and short advice to bring back the excitement:

- easier/cheaper cars for more racing element
- SD as quali stage for picking starting order for Friday...which bring lots of more people to watch the SD and all the attention that goes with it + starting pos/quali strategy.

It's just the FIA and WRC that don't do anything and scratch thei 8alls.
Look at Dakar.. Renault/Dacia got the two of the biggest names under their belt for 2025+ dakar campaign..

Companies have tons of money, it is just how different series can sell it to them.

In that case, wrc has failed to the max.

Thing is with this thread is that it's all about finding an instant fix for immediate issues, ready to go in what is now next season, just 10 and a half months away. That is no base to discuss ways to attract manufacturers.

There's no conversation here about the collapse of European industry and being replaced by China; the heartland of WRC is being replaced by a sportless society, never mind the suitability of the new energy sources in rallying. It's impossible to have conversations about who the target manufacturers are when the thread wants to discuss noisiness of cars, or whether crews should have fresh tyres for the power stage, or qualifying stages, or spicing up the service park, or social media. Everybody is entitled to share opinions but none of this matters in context of the long term and manufacturers.

I agree the FIA have been caught napping, but the presidency has no authority and those with the power really do not care. There was a little bit about formats and electric and hybrid in that survey, but there has been zero noise from the working group or presidency about what WRC will be like in 5-10 years time. That's concerning.

[seb_sh]

Thing is with this thread is that it's all about finding an instant fix for immediate issues, ready to go in what is now next season, just 10 and a half months away. That is no base to discuss ways to attract manufacturers.

There's no conversation here about the collapse of European industry and being replaced by China; the heartland of WRC is being replaced by a sportless society, never mind the suitability of the new energy sources in rallying. It's impossible to have conversations about who the target manufacturers are when the thread wants to discuss noisiness of cars, or whether crews should have fresh tyres for the power stage, or qualifying stages, or spicing up the service park, or social media. Everybody is entitled to share opinions but none of this matters in context of the long term and manufacturers.

I agree the FIA have been caught napping, but the presidency has no authority and those with the power really do not care. There was a little bit about formats and electric and hybrid in that survey, but there has been zero noise from the working group or presidency about what WRC will be like in 5-10 years time. That's concerning.

I disagree that this thread is not about that, some people have raised such concerns, that's why I said we should read the thread and reply in context. Otherwise your reply is spot on. I think the WRC needs to find a way to exist in the future.

[seb_sh]

I'll add one thing, this thread was started in 2022 and had a lot of discussion, meanwhile the FIA has been sleeping and now they are between a rock and hard place. They screwed up and yet again they have to find a short term solution. This is why the ACO, SRO, F1 whatever you want is doing well right now, they planned for the long term, while the WRC is having to do knee jerk reactions.

[WRCStan]

I'll add one thing, this thread was started in 2022 and had a lot of discussion, meanwhile the FIA has been sleeping and now they are between a rock and hard place. They screwed up and yet again they have to find a short term solution. This is why the ACO, SRO, F1 whatever you want is doing well right now, they planned for the long term, while the WRC is having to do knee jerk reactions.

These organisations are apolitical and revolve around motorsport though, FIA isn't.

[WRCStan]

They screwed up and yet again they have to find a short term solution.

Well, not really unless they know of a departure. They can start the next X seasons as they did this.

[seb_sh]

These organisations are apolitical and revolve around motorsport though, FIA isn't.

I'm a bit bored of these excuses, there were still people overseeing WRC and doing nothing for years, probably getting payed for this, sorry but they suck. The ACO got a move on and built something in the meantime, the FIA is just useless.

[er88]

Watched Solans testing vid for Sweden. That yaris sounds utterly pathetic, unwell even. Lets not sugar coat things.
Ive paid lots of money travelling abroad to attend wrc events, but christ I will not bother if rally2 is the future. I know not all cars sound as flat as the yaris rally2, but why would those cars attract new fans that is apparently the aim? I remember taking my missus to the Grampian rally in Aberdeen Scotland, and she asked if the R5 cars are meant to sound like that......
She liked the slower mk2 escorts though

[Franky]

Watched Solans testing vid for Sweden. That yaris sounds utterly pathetic, unwell even. Lets not sugar coat things.
Ive paid lots of money travelling abroad to attend wrc events, but christ I will not bother if rally2 is the future. I know not all cars sound as flat as the yaris rally2, but why would those cars attract new fans that is apparently the aim? I remember taking my missus to the Grampian rally in Aberdeen Scotland, and she asked if the R5 cars are meant to sound like that......
She liked the slower mk2 escorts though

I wouldn't say the Yaris Rally2 sounded bad in Monte. Not the most exciting sound but at least it is noisy.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Watched Solans testing vid for Sweden. That yaris sounds utterly pathetic, unwell even. Lets not sugar coat things.
Ive paid lots of money travelling abroad to attend wrc events, but christ I will not bother if rally2 is the future. I know not all cars sound as flat as the yaris rally2, but why would those cars attract new fans that is apparently the aim? I remember taking my missus to the Grampian rally in Aberdeen Scotland, and she asked if the R5 cars are meant to sound like that......
She liked the slower mk2 escorts though

Agreed on that Yaris... sounds like a wet fart !

But the current Rally2 spec wont be the future, it would be Rally2+, and I'm sure the cars would look and sound much better.

[COD]

you should read the thread :)

It is 70+ pages long. Sorry that I did not have time…. No disrespect to anyone, just my two cents

[lmmjvss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDknN4X1zCQ

Heres what WRC will look like if we dont complain on the internet

[typhoon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDknN4X1zCQ

Heres what WRC will look like if we dont complain on the internet


lol, hopefully we continue complaining then

[WRCStan]

I'm a bit bored of these excuses, there were still people overseeing WRC and doing nothing for years, probably getting payed for this, sorry but they suck. The ACO got a move on and built something in the meantime, the FIA is just useless.

What excuses? Sorry if you find this boring but here's my reasoning, and it's what you're stuck with:

FIA is an international organisation set up to run like a nation state with separate presidency, senate, councils, assemblies, committees etc, and has more than motorsport as its mandate. It has politicians trying to sway things in their country's/pocket's/lobbyist's/banker's favour because of strong influence over the members' national traffic laws, automotive industry and trade flows etc; and it's also in charge of one of few sports with truly-global annual championships and audience reach through F1. Just like nation states, there are smarmy shits trying to bring others down and dodgy deals to enforce and consolidate power and position, and there's a bleed into other political and international organisations. Evidently, many people really don't care for rallying or WRC, and if all these folk were working together, perhaps we wouldn't be having these conversations. The working group are showing they care in a popular way, but the existence of it, the survey and Dirtfish massages from the president rubbing up fans' support are all part of this power struggle game. Even the relationship of the players in that group...

You say the rally dept, the folk who actually care about WRC, are sat with their thumbs up the arses but probably half the decisions they want to take, they don't have the authority, whilst half the things they have to do, they probably wouldn't choose to - I would use hybrid as example. Then, consider the bollockology of the FIA being the WRC governing body and having to license out the commercial rights under EU order, and how that interferes with decision making and implementation when anything commercial has to go back through the senate, at least on paper.

SRO is a private company run by people with shared goals and incentives. Of course they get things done. Conversations about fresh tyres, social media presence and all that make a lot more sense in their offices.

[Mirek]

What I see is that all succesfull series have some sort of cap, be it financial or performance, to ensure an interesting championship. I think that the "old" fully open model of development is dead because the current technologies are at a point of diminishing returns (big spend for small gain). Either you embrace new technologies or you put some cap and aim for entartainment. WRC is as usual behind the times so it's a big question what they will do in the future.

Having a budget cap is for sure sensible but it's not a thing which would make new manufacturers join and that's been the main issue.


An option, go the WEC route: put any car in the windtunnel and put a maximum limit on downforce/drag, put the engine on the dyno and put a maximum limit on power and torque, allow any bodywork and any engine configuration. Set a target maximum limit, this helps any new manufacturer analyse costs/return and know that it won't end up in a spending war. Then it's a business case, otherwise the budget is always open, Hyundai probably spends 10x or 20x to advertise in footbal compared to WRC so if the value rises costs can easily rise too with the current setup. The future of motorsport does not lie in formulas that worked in the past.

This type of thinking about the rules is what I'd prefer as well.

[Mirek]

I have not read the thread, but my suggestion:

Plus kit for current Wrc2 cars: larger restrictor, and other means to create more noise, maybe some bodykit and that is it. Possibility for national/erc drivers to buy the kit if they want to participate in main class WRC on some events

First of all what you suggest is more difficult than it sounds. Everything about Rally2 cars was designed for the power they have. Using larger restrictor will automatically lead either to low reliability or a need to redesign the drivetrain. Larger restrictor also needs new gearing because the peak power moves to higher RPM. All that is not not that cheap. Same goes for more aero which would require quite expensive changes to suspension and differentials (at least completely different setup options). For sure a top factory Rally2+ car at the end of the season would have little common with a standard customer Rally2 car.

You can be also sure that nobody will bother to rebuild the cars from Rally2 to Rally2+ from weekend to weekend. That idea completely failed with RRC and it will fail again. As Albert Einstein once said doing the same thing and expecting a different result is a sign of insanity.

The Rally2+ idea is a short term short-sighted fix to the current WRC. It would probably make one or two seasons more interesting but for a cost. The cost is very real potential damage to the national and regional rallying by rising cost of running the Rally2. I say don't fix what is not broken and the Rally2/R5 worked fantastic for what they were designed - for national and regional championships.

The other problem with this idea is that instead of focusing on bringing real new competitors it aims on taking some away from the WRC2/ERC and bringing them to WRC. Is that what we want or need? I say no.

[denkimi]

How do you create areas out of traffic in let's say Rallye Monte Carlo where everyone has to use the very same mountain narrow roads because there are no alternative routes?

You can ask anyone who actually organizes rallies and I think he would send you to hell with your idea, sorry.
Say they have about 10 minutes after every stage max. With 2 minute intervals that's 5 rally cars and 5 service vans. Even when you take in delays, there's still plenty of places where there is enough space to park 30 cars or more. Even in the mountains there are carparks, townsquares and most importantly companies that have space outdoors or even indoors.
Remember they only do 4 different stages a day, so that's only 3 places you need to have.

And about rally2+. We all need to consider that people are really bad are estimating speed. So cars don't have to be fast, they have to look and mostly sound fast. If we were to put a porsche 6 cilinder or something simmilar in a rc2 that would probably make them look faster than rc1.

[Sal yet again]

The more I see debate around the various formulas the more I think Colin was ahead of the curve:

https://www.djm-motorsport.co.uk/McRaeR4.html

[Kenneth]

Again, with the budgets the WRC teams have (think about Hyundai's 80M), in less than 2 years you'll be at the start point: almost the same costs. They'll spend them over useless small wings and aero around the mirrors or on the roof.

And btw things like panels are just 1-2% of the whole budget needed for building the car.

With some adjustments, Rally2 will be more than fun.

So what are these 98 %?

[becher]

The more I see debate around the various formulas the more I think Colin was ahead of the curve:

https://www.djm-motorsport.co.uk/McRaeR4.html

Isn't it basically a Rally1 with a simpler drivetrain and suspension?

[becher]

How would one implement Hypercar style regulations into the WRC? The engines are fairly equal anyway?

Most of a rally cars performance comes from the chassis suspension no? Aero is hardly what makes a winning car isn't it?

[typhoon]

So what are these 98 %?

Redesigning chassis components, appendix for suspensions, suspension itself, more elaborated bumpers, more aero sessions to get more speed, new wheels design to get more air and optimize braking, new braking system and solutions, new air intakes to better funnel air to manage engine and overall car temperature, specific setups for flat tarmac, etc.

There's still loads of room in the regulations to let them spend millions and millions on things that help them to get 0.1s/km advantages. Opting for cheaper panels doesn't have any big influence on a team budget.

[PLuto]

Say they have about 10 minutes after every stage max. With 2 minute intervals that's 5 rally cars and 5 service vans. Even when you take in delays, there's still plenty of places where there is enough space to park 30 cars or more. Even in the mountains there are carparks, townsquares and most importantly companies that have space outdoors or even indoors.
Remember they only do 4 different stages a day, so that's only 3 places you need to have.

They have cancelled morning services on gravel to "save" working time for mechanics. And you want that teams will suddenly change their mind and make their "working hours" much longer for whole day?

[COD]

Was just looking at Swedish rally 2002 entry list, 28 WRC cars. Oh those times…..

[skarderud]

The main problem is lack of competition, and lack of drivers/cars/brands.

Wrc need more teams, if its Rally2 based, a new Rally1, or something different is hard to say, maybe the time is up for a manufacturer-based championship?

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[fiscorpun]

I thought about what Stan keeps saying... Lets talk rally2. Lets assume it will continue "simple as it is". Im not from Europe, but I imagine fiesta, polo, i20, c3 and yaris are NOT the best selling cars in the EU nowadays. If rally2 were to be built on more modern models, what are the..."top5" best selling hatchbacks/almost SUV cars in EU nowadays? Dont need to be from these manufacturers, its just for the sake of the question. Cuz every auto-magazine says one thing... U guys live over there, you see them on the streets

[fiscorpun]

*when Stan say that "what will wrc run in 2030". That was my point hehe. Maybe wrc is one generation behind car market... Even if that its not that important

[skarderud]

It depends, i think countries like france and spain still sell good amounts of small cars.
In norway it is stupid, 3000kg Electric suv's with more power than a normal driver can handle...

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[Mirek]

So what are these 98 %?

The most expensive thing is development and testing cost and the funny thing about it is that this cost doesn't depend on materials used. You can make the whole car from wood but the development and testing cost will be most likely same or even higher (because of lack of know-how related to the said material).

Just think about what is behind a part like let's say a rear wing. There are hundreds of hours of well paid engineer. The engineer needs expensive hardware, software and an office. After that he needs to order various prototypes which are multiple-times more expensive than the final part. Maybe he would need to rent an aerodynamic tunnel. Than you need another more junior engineer to design the wing attachment. He also needs hardware, software and an office and also some prototypes. You need mechanics to put that together. Than you need to take the car a well paid driver, some race engineer(s) and mechanics for a test. You destroy some parts during the testing and wear-out others. You spend thousands of litres of race fuel and wear-out dozens of tyres. And all the time you pay a manager overlooking the development. When you get to the final part you can count all cost which you already spent on it and divide it by the expected number of produced parts. How many wings can a WRC team use during one season? Few dozens I guess? It means that in a price of each wing you have thousands of Euros of development cost and even if you make the wing of paper it will still cost thousands of Euros.

[Mirek]

I thought about what Stan keeps saying... Lets talk rally2. Lets assume it will continue "simple as it is". Im not from Europe, but I imagine fiesta, polo, i20, c3 and yaris are NOT the best selling cars in the EU nowadays. If rally2 were to be built on more modern models, what are the..."top5" best selling hatchbacks/almost SUV cars in EU nowadays? Dont need to be from these manufacturers, its just for the sake of the question. Cuz every auto-magazine says one thing... U guys live over there, you see them on the streets

The best selling cars in Europe in 2003:
1. Tesla Y
2. Dacia Sandero
3. Volkswagen T-Roc
4. Peugeot 208
5. Renault Clio
6. Opel Corsa

As you can see 5 of 6 of these cars are competitors to the WRC cars, so the segment selection is not wrong.

[seb_sh]

The most expensive thing is development and testing cost and the funny thing about it is that this cost doesn't depend on materials used. You can make the whole car from wood but the development and testing cost will be most likely same or even higher (because of lack of know-how related to the said material).

Just think about what is behind a part like let's say a rear wing. There are hundreds of hours of well paid engineer. The engineer needs expensive hardware, software and an office. After that he needs to order various prototypes which are multiple-times more expensive than the final part. Maybe he would need to rent an aerodynamic tunnel. Than you need another more junior engineer to design the wing attachment. He also needs hardware, software and an office and also some prototypes. You need mechanics to put that together. Than you need to take the car a well paid driver, some race engineer(s) and mechanics for a test. You destroy some parts during the testing and wear-out others. You spend thousands of litres of race fuel and wear-out dozens of tyres. And all the time you pay a manager overlooking the development. When you get to the final part you can count all cost which you already spent on it and divide it by the expected number of produced parts. How many wings can a WRC team use during one season? Few dozens I guess? It means that in a price of each wing you have thousands of Euros of development cost and even if you make the wing of paper it will still cost thousands of Euros.

And the gain for that is maybe 0.1s or less per km.

[Mirek]

And the gain for that is maybe 0.1s or less per km.

If it's 0,1 s/km better than your competitor, it's worth it. The manufacturers have the money and when they commit to the series they rather spend more and succeed than save some money and loose because that is money thrown out of the window. That is the the simple truth what people often forget when they expect cheaper cars to succeed even when over and over again the best sellers are always the most expensive but fastest cars of the class.

[TypeR]

Reading like a politician's brochure that all these tens and tens of people are realy needed and can't do anythimg without them..
Take a respected 3D/CAD whatever moduling program, make the detail right and let it run through the ,,wind tunnel'' for a period of time and let's go for testing in the woods..

,,junior engineer'' to drill correct holes for the wing or whatever..

What would you as a top engineer suggest gor the future of WRC top class?
Asking for real..

[Steve Boyd]

Reading like a politician's brochure that all these tens and tens of people are realy needed and can't do anythimg without them..
Take a respected 3D/CAD whatever moduling program, make the detail right and let it run through the ,,wind tunnel'' for a period of time and let's go for testing in the woods..

,,junior engineer'' to drill correct holes for the wing or whatever..

What would you as a top engineer suggest gor the future of WRC top class?
Asking for real..
The last time I had an Autodesk Inventor 3D modelling licence, about 5 years ago, it cost my employer £10000 per annum for that licence and that would only do 3D modelling & assembly with basic stress analysis not CFD. If it was as simple as you seem to think all the F1 cars would be within 1/10ths of a second of each other not wondering how Red Bull is so fast. From the cost of testing that my employer did in independant specialist test laboratories I doubt you'd get half a day in a wind tunnel for £10000 not counting the cost of the model and the expenses of the staff you'd need to send to observe the tests..

Don't forget we got here because that's what the manfacturers wanted. Despite the cost of each Rally1 car it's still cheaper than trying to produce lots of the "homologation special" models that were needed for GpA in the past. Until the maufacturers decide what they want for the next round of homologation we're merely speculating. I also think that unless any "cost-cap" rules are very carefully written they could strongly discourage any new entries into the championship as the ammount that a new entry would need to spend to catch up with the established teams knowledge could use up a lot of their spending allowance before they'd got anything remotely competitive.

Look at MSport's budget and see what it costs to do it on a shoestring and barely keep up with the rest.

[seb_sh]

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/abiteboul-urges-fia-ponder-radical-changes-wrc-formula/10575763/

Cyril says the sport needs stability and Peter Thul says it needs clarity.

[RS]

The most expensive thing is development and testing cost and the funny thing about it is that this cost doesn't depend on materials used. You can make the whole car from wood but the development and testing cost will be most likely same or even higher (because of lack of know-how related to the said material).

Just think about what is behind a part like let's say a rear wing. There are hundreds of hours of well paid engineer. The engineer needs expensive hardware, software and an office. After that he needs to order various prototypes which are multiple-times more expensive than the final part. Maybe he would need to rent an aerodynamic tunnel. Than you need another more junior engineer to design the wing attachment. He also needs hardware, software and an office and also some prototypes. You need mechanics to put that together. Than you need to take the car a well paid driver, some race engineer(s) and mechanics for a test. You destroy some parts during the testing and wear-out others. You spend thousands of litres of race fuel and wear-out dozens of tyres. And all the time you pay a manager overlooking the development. When you get to the final part you can count all cost which you already spent on it and divide it by the expected number of produced parts. How many wings can a WRC team use during one season? Few dozens I guess? It means that in a price of each wing you have thousands of Euros of development cost and even if you make the wing of paper it will still cost thousands of Euros.

Great argument for getting rid of the silly aero for a start.

Are there even any restrictions on that? Teams seem to bring new design wing mirrors every other rally..

[Mirek]

Great argument for getting rid of the silly aero for a start.

No, it's not. The point was different.

Anyway If you remove the aero they will spend the same money on suspension, or on differentials or whatever. The budget they have is not much driven by the technical rules but by the amount of money their managing board allocates for them. This amount of money is mainly about the marketing value of the championship. In other words if you want to save money for the teams you have to introduce some sort of budget cap. Playing with details like material for door panels is a waste of time for everyone involved.

Still I need to repeat that you won't make WRC better by making it cheaper. That will not bring new manufacturers. The key point is to find the story to sell to the public, a story which is so powerful that the new manufacturers see it as a opportunity for their promotion. Nothing else will work. And to be honest I don't think that the technical formula is all that important in that. IMHO the work done on social networks is way more important than argueing over and over again about how the new car shall look like.

[skarderud]

You need competition, you need stories, you need visibillity.
I'm sad to say todays wrc lack most of it due to bad management and a pay to wiew solution noone outside the fanbase know about.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[WRCStan]

You need competition, you need stories, you need visibillity.
I'm sad to say todays wrc lack most of it due to bad management and a pay to wiew solution noone outside the fanbase know about.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

Can you give an example of a story? Preferably within the bounds of reality and organicism unless you want scripted theatre.

[WRCStan]

The best selling cars in Europe in 2003:
1. Tesla Y
2. Dacia Sandero
3. Volkswagen T-Roc
4. Peugeot 208
5. Renault Clio
6. Opel Corsa

As you can see 5 of 6 of these cars are competitors to the WRC cars, so the segment selection is not wrong.

The question relating to 2030, and although Rally2 and Rally1 being different, consider these brands are...

1. 100% electric
2. Budget for a reason and probably pivoting to ROW markets where electric and WRC isn't important
3. Electrifying fast, Uturn on electrification pace possibly incoming however return to motorsport association unlikely.
4. 100% electric by 2030
5. Uturned on 100% electric for business case but presents as a leading electric brand
6. 100% electric by 2028.

[skarderud]

Can you give an example of a story? Preferably within the bounds of reality and organicism unless you want scripted theatre.Yes, plenty of those in wrc thru the years:

Colin McCrash's 3 rolls in Finland, still managed to finish
Kenneth Eriksson in subaru in sweden
Petter Solberg has lots.
Marcus Grönholm also have lots
Panizzi, and all the tarmac-heroes from the past.

If the competition is good, and its enough seats available, it will always be stories to be told, both from the topguys and some lokal heros one-off.

The recipe for the promoter is like this:

How many seats/drivers/teams do we need? I say 15-20 seats

How do we get that?
A formula that is good enough to get spectacle, but not extreme tech-driven or expensive. Maybe todays safety-cell with an ice engine, and ofcourse a rulechange that open up for other teams than manu's to build cars.

How do we get bigger audience?
Make free half-hours recaps and summaries you give out for free, both on YT, social medias and regular TV canals.
Then more fans will buy your rally-tv product.

How to get stories?
If you have more seats, they come by itselves.





Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[Jarek Z]

Can you give an example of a story? Preferably within the bounds of reality and organicism unless you want scripted theatre.


Yes, plenty of those in wrc thru the years:

Colin McCrash's 3 rolls in Finland, still managed to finish
Kenneth Eriksson in subaru in sweden
Petter Solberg has lots.
Marcus Grönholm also have lots
Panizzi, and all the tarmac-heroes from the past.

If the competition is good, and its enough seats available, it will always be stories to be told, both from the topguys and some lokal heros one-off.

Yes, there are many more exciting stories from the past:
1. Colin McRae vs Carlos Sainz in the same Subaru team fighting for the title in 1995 (Colin didn't want to follow team orders)
2. Carlos Sainz loses the title to Tommi Makinen on the last stage of RAC Rally in late nineties
3. Two top Brits Richard Burns and Colin McRae fighting for the title until the last rally in 2001
4. Audi vs Lancia in 1983:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER_nwY9ADBQ

It's just a couple of examples off the top of my head that I recollected in 10 minutes, but there are plenty more. Always from the past of course, because modern WRC is too boring to generate any exciting stories.

[WRCStan]

Ok I didn't know if you mean personal stories like how one man overcame adversity to become champion, or the drama like Red Bull Horner has now...

[Jarek Z]

I think there are more exciting stories in ERC now, like the one from last year when a forgotten WRC star from New Zealand returns to Europe and wins ERC, despite having to fight against a 5-car armada of the official MRF team.

[Sal yet again]

Problem is half the time the teams' PR machines dont like any story that "isn't on message"! Luis smashing his helmet through the back window of the stranded Corolla in Margam Park or Colin kicking a fuel can after being told to slow down in Cataluyna would be airbrushed out.

As much as we can't really go back to roadside service due to H&S constraints as much as anything I think bringing the cars and drivers back from behind these buildings the teams drag round with them would be a good thing regardless of what formula the cars run to

[Jarek Z]

Here's a story of McRae vs Sainz, thanks to Red Bull:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5Zjm7ec4Fo

[Jarek Z]

Wow! Is there a series about Carlos Sainz?
https://www.redbull.com/int-en/shows/carlos-sainz-live-to-compete

[Mirek]

Ok I didn't know if you mean personal stories like how one man overcame adversity to become champion, or the drama like Red Bull Horner has now...

IMHO it can be whatever story which brings positive interest of the wider public and potential customers (interest from 10 years old children doesn't bring much). I dare to say that simple entertainment may attract more people than green-oriented catchwords.

[typhoon]

The key point is to find the story to sell to the public, a story which is so powerful that the new manufacturers see it as a opportunity for their promotion. Nothing else will work. And to be honest I don't think that the technical formula is all that important in that. IMHO the work done on social networks is way more important than argueing over and over again about how the new car shall look like.

Spot on!!!

That's exactly the reason why I reached my 1250 characters in the final feedback of my survey.

With whatever car you will do the championship, this won't change LITERALLY anything in terms of ROI for Manufacturers and for brands that wants to invest on privateers. The key metrics to assess an investment in a series are totally different.

A perfect example of this logic is why many manufacturers are investing in Formula E: racing in the middle of big cities, with entertainment/marketing/fun opportunities for fans, VIP invited by sponsors and stakeholders of the championship. It's a full experience, I felt that I was in the middle of a motorsport festival.

If you analyze the Social Media engagement rate from WRC and FE (with professional softwares like Hootsuite or Sprout Social), FE wins by huge margin.

Every small thing is told like an epic story. You'd say: I don't want WRC becoming the set of a hollywood movie. Agree, but WRC needs stories. If it's artificial like Oliver Solberg wearing women underwear before Sweden and being "constricted" entering the service park few days ago, but it works, let's go for it!

We're living in the world of TikTok and of any type of Reels (either we like it or not, let's make peace with our mind), time has changed and WRC need to make a huge step forward to fulfill this gap.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Matt Edwards (3× British Rally Champion)

Does it not answer the question about WRC's future that one of the most interesting days in recent WRC history has included new names on stage leaderboards in difficult conditions?
WRC needs depth which means more accessibility for privateers.

[RS]

Still I need to repeat that you won't make WRC better by making it cheaper. That will not bring new manufacturers. The key point is to find the story to sell to the public, a story which is so powerful that the new manufacturers see it as a opportunity for their promotion. Nothing else will work. And to be honest I don't think that the technical formula is all that important in that. IMHO the work done on social networks is way more important than argueing over and over again about how the new car shall look like.

Isn’t the point of making the cars cheaper to build and run to make them more accessible for private teams and drivers?

The FIA say they want 25 top level cars at the startline, that’s never going to happen with just manufacturer crews.

[GigiGalliNo1]

The question relating to 2030, and although Rally2 and Rally1 being different, consider these brands are...

1. 100% electric
2. Budget for a reason and probably pivoting to ROW markets where electric and WRC isn't important
3. Electrifying fast, Uturn on electrification pace possibly incoming however return to motorsport association unlikely.
4. 100% electric by 2030
5. Uturned on 100% electric for business case but presents as a leading electric brand
6. 100% electric by 2028.

I'll be brief..

F1 fans aren't fans because they can go out and buy a Ferrari or high end Benz or McLaren on Monday are they?

Same with NASCAR... well maybe you can go buy a Camry on Monday but they're not the same!

Something's done right with those two sports yes... how can Rallying become the same or utilize what they're got that WRC doesn't have?

Fair enough that WRC is going "Greener" but it's a shame it is not what it use to be. With stories and higher personalities.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Trying to response to Mirek's comment but can't seem to find it.


Spot on!!!

That's exactly the reason why I reached my 1250 characters in the final feedback of my survey.

With whatever car you will do the championship, this won't change LITERALLY anything in terms of ROI for Manufacturers and for brands that wants to invest on privateers. The key metrics to assess an investment in a series are totally different.

A perfect example of this logic is why many manufacturers are investing in Formula E: racing in the middle of big cities, with entertainment/marketing/fun opportunities for fans, VIP invited by sponsors and stakeholders of the championship. It's a full experience, I felt that I was in the middle of a motorsport festival.

If you analyze the Social Media engagement rate from WRC and FE (with professional softwares like Hootsuite or Sprout Social), FE wins by huge margin.

Every small thing is told like an epic story. You'd say: I don't want WRC becoming the set of a hollywood movie. Agree, but WRC needs stories. If it's artificial like Oliver Solberg wearing women underwear before Sweden and being "constricted" entering the service park few days ago, but it works, let's go for it!

We're living in the world of TikTok and of any type of Reels (either we like it or not, let's make peace with our mind), time has changed and WRC need to make a huge step forward to fulfill this gap.

The WRC really needs a series like the F1 on Netflix or the new NASCAR one. I've just started watching the NASCAR series and it's interesting. I'm hooked into the characters.

The Promotor for the WRC has to let loose... they're too tight on everything and letting news and opinions out, same with footage which is sad. Trying to keep it clean. I can understand it's more wild than a racing track sport (F1) but still... they're got their hands around the sports neck.

WRC on Netflix to broaden the audience, showcase the characters and properly how much M-Sport are the underdog. Imagine, sponsors seeing this and the history of two world champs coming in to compete in a Fiesta/Puma WRC and winning events (!) yet having young guns learning and drowning the team... Could do wonders for a team like that getting Ford in proper OR at least more $$$$ in sponsorship for the team and sport.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Just to note - the M-Sport social media content creator left the team in 2023 and is now with Hyundai - you'll notice a lot more hip content on social media including TikTok and Instagram with the new team ie Hyundai Grand Theft Auto style video ahead of Monte. It went "viral".

Solberg hitting social media hard well too with his undergarment of choice ahead of Sweden :D