WRC main class in 2025

[becher]

wrc just needs to walk away from the idea that only big car manufacturers are allowed to build a car.
they need to go to a f1 formula where private teams can also build a car and compete.
This! With Rally1 it's the perfect ruleset, but it needs to be commercially viable, which it isn't at the moment. F1 has the FOM price money from TV rights, the WRC promotor doesn't have any money to spend.

[skarderud]

Yes, the manu-rule is obviously out of date, they are not interested.
Its quite easy with the Rally1-5 rules to let private teams build cars in those regulation.


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[Sulland]

Proposal: All WRC1 teams need to use their "last year models" and form a minimum 2 car team. Can be operated by the manufacturer or a satelite team.
Drivers buy the seats for a season or a single rally if available.

More drivers get experience in WRC1 cars, and we get a better show with drivers trying to beat the manu teams.

[typhoon]

I'm aware I'm ready to get my s**tstorm here in the forum, but since I have been working in the WRC until few years ago, I think it's finally time to do something very different that might help gather more casual fans around and get more attention.

It's also time to get an opinion also from the main actors of the championship, since nobody seems to listen to them both on the Promoter and the FIA.
I read carefully this interview ( https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/neuville-wrc-has-reached-a-critical-point-needs-change/10467810/ ) and is quite alarming in my opinion. I believe Neuville is quite right here.

The "motorsport market" on TV and on the social media is very dynamic and aggressive, while it looks like the WRC is taying quite behind other big series. So, my proposals on the rally format would be the following:

THURSDAY
The Shakedown needs to be converted back into a Qualifying Stage, which must be televised with the format of a "world feed" (Shakedowns on YouTube are quite "depressing" and "static" honestly) and create hype and "tension" for those watching.
Format: 3 mandatory runs for each Manufacturer-entered car, with the sum of the two best time decides the road order for Friday.

SUPERSPECIAL
Thursday's SSS, as said, must be televised from an iconic venue and the road order will be decided by an online fan vote.

FRIDAY
Using the qualifying stage, the road order will go accordingly and the Day 1 must end with a Superspecial, which will award extra 3-2-1 points to the top-3 stage times.

SATURDAY
The road order will be created by reverting the top-15 standings (15th after Day 1 will start first and so on).
A Special Stage on Saturday afternoon will be broadcasted for 90 minutes and will feature an arena through the stage (like Loelle in Sardinia) with 1 extra point for the fastest time and 1 extra point for the biggest jump.

SUNDAY
It remains as it is, with rally-ending Wolf Power Stage to award extra points and feature the podium-finish ceremony as well.

That's for what I think the format could be in the future.

The WRC Promoter can also create new lines of revenue, in order to fund and help the teams run the championship.
- WRC Originals - Selling car parts (rear-view mirrors, wings, front bumpers, etc.) to fans worldwide.
- WRC Merchandise and Teams Merchandise - This totally disappeared, the website has been shut down as well.
- WRC Hospitality solutions - The local promoters try to do their packages, but it would be awesome to have a branded solution that will give the same experiences in all rallies.
- WRC event contests - to be held both online (call to actions, engaging challenges, etc.) and offline (arrange pit stop challenge at the service park, etc.). This will help WRC Promoter to gather important big data and stratify the targets to hunt to improve the brand and so wisely invest the budget that needs to be dedicated for promotion.

There's basically a lot that can be done by the WRC Promoter, without big expenses, that can help the series to be revived and gather more interest around. As for the technical part, I read many good proposals here that can help lower the costs and give the chance to have more top-cars in the entry list and private teams as well!

[Kenneth]

wrc just needs to walk away from the idea that only big car manufacturers are allowed to build a car.
they need to go to a f1 formula where private teams can also build a car and compete.

Exactly. It works for Dakar, it works for Le Mans, it would work for WRC. I bet that teams like Prodrive, Oreca or GCK would jump in.

Also WRC need to get rid of these stupid overpriced Global Race Engine formula. It's one of the most expensive parts of the cars. Just let manufacturers build engines based on road cars.

[RS]

Exactly. It works for Dakar, it works for Le Mans, it would work for WRC. I bet that teams like Prodrive, Oreca or GCK would jump in.

Who’s going to pay for that though? Even M-Sport still have some help from Ford.

[Kenneth]

Who’s going to pay for that though? Even M-Sport still have some help from Ford.

Idk. But they can pay it in Dakar and Le Mans. So there is a way.

[EstWRC]

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/wrc-fia-considering-cost-cap-in-bid-to-attract-new-brands-/10470368/

[Norm75]

It’s a difficult one. Following the conversation in news and rumours thread, but thought I’d post here as it was kind of getting off topic of news and rumours and the problem of declining interest in wrc is probably more suited here.
The problem for me, and I’ve been a car nut since forever, is cars are just becoming boring. There are not so much family hatchbacks or saloon cars that rally cars used to be based on. They are all becoming jacked up wannabe SUV’s that are design for mums to ferry their kids to school in, all look the same and are just intrinsically dull.
Add to that the shift to electric. I don’t want to watch white goods hurtling through forests, I can go down the lane near I live and watch the local pikeys chucking washing machines in a hedge if that is what interests me. I think most rally fans like the mechanics of internal combustion engines. It’s exciting. It’s evocative. Nothing beats the sound of a bda escort, the howl of a 5 cylinder Quattro, the beat of a Subaru boxer, the wail of a 6r4 or a stratos v6. The sound of a powerful vacuum cleaner hurtling towards me doesn’t excite me. The powers that be have a difficult job on their hands.

[Jarek Z]

The problem for me, and I’ve been a car nut since forever, is cars are just becoming boring. There are not so much family hatchbacks or saloon cars that rally cars used to be based on. They are all becoming jacked up wannabe SUV’s that are design for mums to ferry their kids to school in, all look the same and are just intrinsically dull.

I agree. It's like in this famous picture:
https://twitter.com/GuyDealership/status/1596896517582831616?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1596896517582831616%7Ctwgr% 5E565c9d1e13806edc58ebb562683300730bf6d008%7Ctwcon %5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fjalopnik.com%2Fembed%2Finset %2Fiframe%3Fid%3Dtwitter-1596896517582831616autosize%3D1

[AnttiL]

There are not so much family hatchbacks or saloon cars that rally cars used to be based on. They are all becoming jacked up wannabe SUV’s that are design for mums to ferry their kids to school in, all look the same and are just intrinsically dull.

Wait, what are family hatchbacks and saloon cars then used for?

Apart from some exceptions like Lancia Stratos, 037, Audi quattro and Toyota Celica, rallying has mostly been won on tuned up family cars.

[Kenneth]

Did everybody forget that Rally1 cars have tube frame chassis? It doesn't matter at all what does the road car look. Both Puma and i20 are very different from road cars.

[Norm75]

Wait, what are family hatchbacks and saloon cars then used for?

Apart from some exceptions like Lancia Stratos, 037, Audi quattro and Toyota Celica, rallying has mostly been won on tuned up family cars.
That is exactly my point. Cars used to have character. Even the ones rally cars were based on. Now cars that are generally for sale are full and boring, which filters down to the sport. The only new car on the horizon that interests me is the new Renault 5 but that’s electric.

[Norm75]

Did everybody forget that Rally1 cars have tube frame chassis? It doesn't matter at all what does the road car look. Both Puma and i20 are very different from road cars.

They at least look similar to the road car, but we are going to lose them and end up with all cars looking the same suv style. Look at Ford, no more mondeo focus or fiesta, just jacked up crap.

It’s not in manufacturers interest to style something that doesn’t look remotely like anything you can buy.

[Kenneth]

If you feel that Puma looks "at least similar", then I don't think any manufacturer would have problem to find a car that fits.

And to the second part of your post - why do manufacturers compete in LMH, NASCAR, Japan's Super GT and similar series? Because that cars surely doesn't look like anything you can buy.

[Norm75]

If you feel that Puma looks "at least similar", then I don't think any manufacturer would have problem to find a car that fits.

And to the second part of your post - why do manufacturers compete in LMH, NASCAR, Japan's Super GT and similar series? Because that cars surely doesn't look like anything you can buy.
Indeed. So why bother go rallying, why not just do f1.

I am a rally fan. I like rally cars. On my drive is an Impreza wrx and a legacy gt spec b wr limited (made for 1 year to commemorate Subaru wrc champion)
They are both good cars, have character and are exiting to drive. The Impreza we have had for 15 years. Not a lot that they rally now floats my boat as a road car (or design/based on), other than Yaris gr4 but I don’t have the means to buy one.

My son on the other hand is more into f1. He drives a merc a class AMG line. Not a fast one. Good car, looks nice, lovely interior and so on but boring. It’s just a car. Cars are becoming dull.
As I said in my post, THE PROBLEM FOR ME. Everyone is different.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I agree with a lot.of what Norm says re the old cars vs the new.

The Group A era and early WRC cars had homologation specials that you could actually buy, plus they weren't covered in massive aero and were spectacular on the stages because of this.

Engine noise is also big issue. The old cars sounded fantastic, not just loud like today's. I watched a historic event recently and when a Mk2 Escort came by at full chat I got serious goosebumps. I never have that with the Rally1 cars.

I'm afraid dont see any way that the WRC can seriously change in a way that will attract more and new fans. As Norm says, modern cars are so boring and roads so congested, that affordable high performance versions are a dying breed and market. I dont know what a Manufacturer would get out of competing in WRC or how fans can be satisfied watching electric SUVs.

[becher]

Indeed. So why bother go rallying, why not just do f1.

I am a rally fan. I like rally cars. On my drive is an Impreza wrx and a legacy gt spec b wr limited (made for 1 year to commemorate Subaru wrc champion)
They are both good cars, have character and are exiting to drive. The Impreza we have had for 15 years. Not a lot that they rally now floats my boat as a road car (or design/based on), other than Yaris gr4 but I don’t have the means to buy one.

My son on the other hand is more into f1. He drives a merc a class AMG line. Not a fast one. Good car, looks nice, lovely interior and so on but boring. It’s just a car. Cars are becoming dull.
As I said in my post, THE PROBLEM FOR ME. Everyone is different.

You do realize that there was little more boring on the road than an Impreza or Escort or Lancer,.... What made them exciting cars were the extra letters attached to the name for the sporting variants. Same goes for todays cars except that half the market is crowded with Stupid Useless Vehicles (SUV).

And as mentioned rallying always relied on small mundane cars bar the odd exception here and there.

[AnttiL]

That is exactly my point. Cars used to have character. Even the ones rally cars were based on. Now cars that are generally for sale are full and boring, which filters down to the sport. The only new car on the horizon that interests me is the new Renault 5 but that’s electric.

That’s not rallying’s fault

[Norm75]

You do realize that there was little more boring on the road than an Impreza or Escort or Lancer,.... What made them exciting cars were the extra letters attached to the name for the sporting variants. Same goes for todays cars except that half the market is crowded with Stupid Useless Vehicles (SUV).

And as mentioned rallying always relied on small mundane cars bar the odd exception here and there.

Yes I know. How long do you think that’s going to continue for though?
Yes, you can get a puma st or i20N now, but for how much longer. Rally2 seems to get more interest at the moment with people suggesting this should become the top class. How much longer do you think you will be able to get a fiesta (death imminent) Fabia, polo and the like for? Not long because they will all be replaced with boring suv electric shit boxes that don’t appeal, they just function.

A Yaris or an i20 might survive, because they are the car of choice for your Nan to pop down the shop in. Hardly wrc target audience.

It was probably a couple of years ago now that I said on here wrc was becoming boring and irrelevant. I ended up feeling like a leper for saying it but now people are mentioning in threads that it is becoming boring, people losing interest etc. Mark my words.

[Norm75]

That’s not rallying’s fault

I know. That is why in my first post I said it was a difficult one and the people in charge have got a difficult job on their hands.

Also, think a couple of you missed my point/got lost in translation. What I meant in my post was there used to be more family hatch/saloon based rally cars, and always have been, than there likely will be moving forward.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Do full EVs have a future in rallying ?

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/do-full-evs-have-a-future-in-rallying/10470149/

[fiscorpun]

Five words: FIA WORLD RALLY SPRINT CHAMPIONSHIP
One stage... 2 Shakedown runs, Two qualy runs to decide the final's order.... and then the final run.
Privateers can only run Rally2 cars and Manufacturer teams must run a similar powered car but with Hydrogen, Electric or Hybrid (50/50)...

[Sulland]

2 things will make a decent e car for rally in the format as we know it.

1. better battery tech with much higher power density.
2. Agreing on a WRC battery swap system, so cars can swap at service and other remote locations. Where and how often is mathematics.

[mknight]

Baumschlagers car runs with current battery tech and did normal rallies with no battery swaps or schedule changes.

So why do you need 1 or 2 to happen?

[ouvreur]

Baumschlagers car runs with current battery tech and did normal rallies with no battery swaps or schedule changes.

So why do you need 1 or 2 to happen?

Because there is a significant difference between a round of the Austrian Championship, and the World Rally Championship...

[mknight]

Because there is a significant difference between a round of the Austrian Championship, and the World Rally Championship...

Which could be compensated by adding more refueling/recharging zones.
Definitely not "new tech" level.

[becher]

Which could be compensated by adding more refueling/recharging zones.
Definitely not "new tech" level.

What about the weight? Are we accepting that BEVs are slower or ar we giving them 800hp to compensate for the 2000kg rally ready weight and just say screw safety?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Maybe they should put Paddon Motorsport in charge...

https://paddonrallysport.co.nz/hyundai-ev-rally-car/

[Jarek Z]

The only new car on the horizon that interests me is the new Renault 5 but that’s electric.

You mean this?

https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/images/news-article/carousel/2021/05/ff74a3e75759a044cc7b4eb04ba864b4/2_renault_5_concept.jpg?w=892&h=502

[fiscorpun]

Too bad cuz the "Rally Version" of the R5 3E is not on FIA plans...
https://jalopnik.com/fia-wont-let-renault-r5-turbo-electric-rally-car-race-1850313815

And tbh Im all IN when it comes to moving on to something like a "Segment-A" car category, like these small Fiat 500e Abarth, Alpine, this Renault, VW's electric Up, some chinese compact cars, Picanto, Spark.... But with some nice Aerokits for downforce

[Norm75]

You mean this?

https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/images/news-article/carousel/2021/05/ff74a3e75759a044cc7b4eb04ba864b4/2_renault_5_concept.jpg?w=892&h=502
Yes although the alpine version looks even better

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Yes although the alpine version looks even better

Sure does !

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/alpine/360160/new-alpine-a290ss-concept-teases-future-electric-hot-hatch-pictures

[skarderud]

After this joke of a weekend in wrc1, its time to say goodbye do this era and welcome Rally2 as the top class.

Its not even a decent rental driver, its way to expensive. 15 yrs ago, most teams had rental drivers in last years modells, both good talents and rich nobodys, but they was atleast there to fill up after the topdrivers had binned it.

I don't understand the use of money for the manu's eighter, lots of good quality drivers in Rally2's are in front of theire guys too.

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[wyler]

After this joke of a weekend in wrc1, its time to say goodbye do this era and welcome Rally2 as the top class.

Its not even a decent rental driver, its way to expensive. 15 yrs ago, most teams had rental drivers in last years modells, both good talents and rich nobodys, but they was atleast there to fill up after the topdrivers had binned it.

I don't understand the use of money for the manu's eighter, lots of good quality drivers in Rally2's are in front of theire guys too.

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just back from the joke weekend. no way rally2 is a solution. there's too much difference. rally2 live just after rally1 look so dull.
i was among general spectator, some first timers: no interest in rally2 (and you cant's say the drivers aren't good.)

[skarderud]

just back from the joke weekend. no way rally2 is a solution. there's too much difference. rally2 live just after rally1 look so dull.
i was among general spectator, some first timers: no interest in rally2 (and you cant's say the drivers aren't good.)But, if there where no Rally1's first, Rally2's would look much more spectaculare.

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[wyler]

But, if there where no Rally1's first, Rally2's would look much more spectaculare.

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live? no way!
i was thinking this today at the stage, even loubet/katsuta was a standout against top rally2. i was really thinking we need something like rally1.
i attended a lot of r5/rally2 event, regional or international level. sure they're ok. sure good drivers makes it nice, but rally1 is just another thing.
I'm not say they must remain the same, but i do think we need something more "wow" than rally2. it's simply the behavior on the car on the road. rally2 is not enough, expecially for the wrc.there has to be something more than regional rally, and better drivers is not enough.
i was on 9 ss this weekend and there's no way. on the powerstage i saw mikkelsen and then katsuta: no question about the value of the driver, still katsuta was another level to see, just because of the behaviour of the car: powersliding, bouncing around, keeping the throttle just where rally2 simply couldn't do it. and people got crazy for it.

[skarderud]

live? no way!
i was thinking this today at the stage, even loubet/katsuta was a standout against top rally2. i was really thinking we need something like rally1.
i attended a lot of r5/rally2 event, regional or international level. sure they're ok. sure good drivers makes it nice, but rally1 is just another thing.
I'm not say they must remain the same, but i do think we need something more "wow" than rally2. it's simply the behavior on the car on the road. rally2 is not enough, expecially for the wrc.there has to be something more than regional rally, and better drivers is not enough.
i was on 9 ss this weekend and there's no way. on the powerstage i saw mikkelsen and then katsuta: no question about the value of the driver, still katsuta was another level to see, just because of the behaviour of the car: powersliding, bouncing around, keeping the throttle just where rally2 simply couldn't do it. and people got crazy for it.Well, i understand the show, seen those at sweden too, but when the wrc is at utterly shit shape, it has to be some rethinking.
Its way to expensive, not any future in this.
Sorry.


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[skarderud]

When the Gr.B was banned, everyone thought Gr.A was boring. After som years, Gr.A evolved to be a classic, if we don't romantize Gr.B, Gr.A was much better in every way. And evolved into WRC in late 90's that everyone dreams about.

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[meh]

I think you have discussion here from different angles and you search the truth - should rally be competition oriented or machinery oriented.

I'm here with wyler statement - I think it's the Rally1 machine which brings crowds to rally and which entertains people. Even if it's lacking deep level competition like it is at the moment.

Nowadays it's all fighting for people's attention. At the moment Rally1 cars provide the wow-effects, how laws of the physics get questioned for spectators. If we could give it away, I'm not sure it can bounce back nowadays like it was from Group B to Group A era, it's completely different to time to earn peoples attention. And I'm not talking about core-born-to-be-rally-fan's here, those are staying with momentum, the question is - how to get new fans.

[skarderud]

From my perspective, it is the competition that counts.
Some new guy on the stages won't see the difference if he hasen't any knowledge of the potential faster cars.

But its a perfect way of killing the WRC of today to keep up with 6-7 monsters noone can afford, then we are free of manu's and the not that bright promoters in 5 years time.

Back to the roots, with lokal tuners that can build theire Rally2's, lokal heros fighting, 20-30 cars that can get a top10 spot, much better competition than today, good stories, drivers that are not ruined by the PR-people that speak free, etc.



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[trykmann]

I agree the rally2 switch would be the best solution. We can agree they might be a bit boring, but they should not be slower compared to pre 2017 WRC cars. The competiton is most important and the majority watches the sport through All live anyway, so they cant't see any difference.

With so few cars in current situation the manufacturers championship is also quite ridiculous. You can loose 5 minutes and be on the 20th position in the overall standings, but championship wise you can have the points from 5th position.

For me rally has always been something which is driven with cars that are similar to normal everyday cars. The group B was spectacular, but group A was more similar to the cars you could by from the dealer. For example it was possible to buy a Impreza or Lancer and drive a similar car like Mäkinen or McCrae.

Nowdays the Puma has nothing incommon compared to the Rally1 version.


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[AndersX]

I agree on Rally2 cars as a re-start for another development wave. My experience in motorsport allows to think that every development circle in tech growth requires some big re-shapes to get forward again. These hybrid cars had a good idea, but they just came up to be too expensive and without clear vision beyond few years. Some deja vu from 1986, just the reason was different. I have seen ERC event live with many Rally2 cars - they look good if you do not have R1 to compare with. Check the competition in ERC - very nice and spectacular. I say - WRC need 1 step back now to be able to make 2 steps forward again.

[Bigalstosh99]

I love our sport. Followed it avidly since 1984; competed for 23years. Still love it today. But it feels like it’s slowly dying. It has become less and less relevant outside our bubble of rally fanatics (teams included).

Rallying started out as a test of endurance and speed for road cars across arduous public real-world roads, open to anyone who wanted to take part. Endurance had value then and speed has always been an attraction.

Endurance is not relevant any more for ICE cars. ICE cars are being legislated out because they are harming the planet. Speed is becoming less socially acceptable, especially on the public road. So speed for speed's sake is a hard sell now.

Current rally 1 rules make great cars to watch but they contradict the essence of the sport.

Rally 1 tech is not relevant. It’s a bastardised parallel hybrid developed solely for rally 1 car application - it carries zero credibility in showrooms of dealers. A spaceframe chassis as a rally car? That’s not a rally car, that’s a buggy and that’s what raids are for.

Our sport is as under threat now as it was in 1986 when it was killing people. Except this time round the threat comes from being blind to the reality of the values of the modern world and the apathy for our sport in its current form.

What to do? it’s time for a dramatic 1987 style re-set.

Focus on a formula that uses current production EVs as the basis. Restore the link to what people actually drive. Promote the endurance and toughness of road based vehicles again.

EVs are seeing a public backlash - range, public charging, costs - and sales are dipping.

WRC is the MOST relevant automotive sporting completion for OEMs to promote their products in a positive light against these public concerns. OEMs can compete with their zero emissions technology demonstrate real-world, relevant performance and endurance.

A zero emissions WRC based on current production ZE cars will be different. It has to be or WRC will die. It will be a sensory step down for us fanatics in the bubble. We need to get over that or we'll lose the WRC.

There will always be incredible drivers happy to take an OEM buck to drive these cars on their door handles and that will always be a sight worth seeing.

[atsiotras79]

The best post I ‘ve read for a while in here… 👏

[AndyRAC]

Endurance not relevant anymore? Really? I guess you don't watch GT/ Sportscars.....as nobody told the race organisers, or the manufacturers it's not relevant.

Apart from that you made some good points.

[steve.mandzij]

As I've said before, I firmly believe the WRC should have flexible regulations on powertrain and that they should balance performance between technologies. It's what Dakar has done to attract manufacturers like Audi; regulation flexibility has suddenly made Endurance relevant again.

If rally is to be a marketing tool for the durability and endurance of manufacturers' future tech of choice, then I think this is the way.

[Bigalstosh99]

my point is endurance does matter . . . but WRC doesn't play that card properly by sticking with ICE - the general car buying public doesn't need convincing about endurance of an ICE in 2023.

zero emissions cars (battery EV OR fuel cell EV) are a different story . . . .

.

[Franky]

I don't believe that the general public cares about endurance or anything technical. They want the best possible entertainment. Times have changed and sport is a massive entertainment business.

[becher]

When I take non interested people to a rally, the spectacle is all that interests them, not the times, not the fights and not the technology. So Rally1 or something atop Rally2 makes sense even if my friends got excited by Rally2/R5 cars on national events as well.

And furthermore, the WRC should have a more special car than every national championship on the planet and even if casual people are not bothered by the technology behind it, I think as the second most important/biggest top FIA series (also one of two left without BOP) it should remain a technical tour de force.

[macebig]

Rally2 as the top category is the most viable way for WRC at the moment. There is an abundance of cars available, from a variety of makes. It will open up the field hugely and allow youngsters and local talents their time in the sun, (which has always been a WRC staple till about a decade ago). Adding local interest and the element of surprise will drive up visibility. Even allowing non factory supported cars like the Mirage R5 and the Holzer Corsa can help too. Will also allow exceptional talents with R3 cars to shine by mixing it up with the bigger cars, instead of living in anonymity as is the case now. Yeah, ok, R1 are much more spectacular,but a 6 car championship can't sustain itself for much.

[skarderud]

Yeah, open up for not-factory supported tuners is obvious.
The manufacturers is not interested enough that is logical to have a monopoly on this anymore.
M-sport started as a local tuner, delivered quite good Escort Gr.A's at the time.

It is not magic or anything, toyota also started as Mäkinen's subaru workshop.

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[becher]

Rally2 as the top category is the most viable way for WRC at the moment. There is an abundance of cars available, from a variety of makes. It will open up the field hugely and allow youngsters and local talents their time in the sun, (which has always been a WRC staple till about a decade ago). Adding local interest and the element of surprise will drive up visibility. Even allowing non factory supported cars like the Mirage R5 and the Holzer Corsa can help too. Will also allow exceptional talents with R3 cars to shine by mixing it up with the bigger cars, instead of living in anonymity as is the case now. Yeah, ok, R1 are much more spectacular,but a 6 car championship can't sustain itself for much.

But Rally2 is the wrong ruleset for that, and the mentioned Holzer Corsa is the perfect example. It was more or less ready, but Opel refused permission to homologate it. And both cars mentioned are old and wouldn't stand a chance.

Rally1 with a spaceframe chassis would be perfect for rally teams to build and develop there own cars (think F1 constructors or past sportscar teams like Courage, Pescarolo,...), without a manufacturer stoping the fun because there brand is involved. The cost factor is still there, but the pricetag of the car is hardly the deciding factor considering the budgets involved in the WRC.

[Kenneth]

Yup, base it on Rally2 but make it space frame, allow privaters to build cars and bum, it's instant hit.

[Sulland]

Petter takes lead;
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/drivers-to-meet-with-wrcs-promoter-over-wrc-future/

[fiscorpun]

I suspect this meeting will result in nothing new. They need more than "Hey drivers, what you want?"
Cuz they will only say stuff like "You need to promote it better, make it cooler for the fans and I want to not start first on fridays"

[lmmjvss]

I started watching wrc in 2014 after falling in love with rallycross. But I was never a wrc+ guy. I only watch thoae daily highlights, which I find awesome. They do the job, honestly. Tho ERC's 45 min highlights were easier to follow. Like, they'd pop on my YouTube feed and thats it. Easier to watch than to have to go to redbullTV and watch one 22min highlight per day. And we dont miss out on 45min vs 66min (3 22min highlights), cuz redbullTV waste some time with recap from previous days and showing the calendar again and again... WRC is an excellent championship, but maybe they should just try to have a 45min highlights on YouTube AND on TV. Thats what I would change. The product is attractive enough, lets be honest. Of course it'd be better if all the top Rally2 guys were on the same machines as the Rally1 guys too. But I like watching Rally2 cars finishing P5. I am all IN for that. Just show them more on the broadcast

[Bigalstosh99]

Rally2 as the top category is the most viable way for WRC at the moment.

Rally 2 does appear to be an affordable and financially sustainable formula for teams and privateers. It’s providing great sport for us fans too.

Perhaps Rally 1 should adopt the technical framework from Rally 2 but exclusively for EV vehicles?

Differentiation would be in the EV powertrain, granting more manufacturer autonomy in this area than is the case currently for ICE R2. Such EV vehicles could also easily command a power advantage to assure Rally 1 EV is the fastest category in the event.

[EstWRC]

i dont know if the opinion has changed now but before this latest rule change the teams were against Rally2 being the main class

i remember someone here posted an interview with some finnish guy who was in FIA or smth and he said they proposed it but Toyota, Hyundai and M-sport didnt want.

Maybe someone can find it, im too lazy too search for it

[mknight]

It's either Full EV or Rally2.

FullEV has largest possible manu support, but of those currently in it likely is only for Hyundai and maybe Ford. Most risky for many reasons.

Rally2 is easiest short term but will likely turn this into "clubsport" as manus will stop directly running teams. Issue with long term perspective ( over 3-5 years).

[Bigalstosh99]

It's either Full EV or Rally2.

could be both . . . doesn't have to be one or the other.

[Norm75]

Well, I don’t like it but the sport is going to have to move with the times and go ev if no other viable option appears soon. Manufacturers have to start making vehicles that at least look cool rather than the copy and paste vehicles they are making at the moment. As I’ve said, the new Renault 5 looks promising, but the current manufacturers electric vehicles are too big, Hyundais ioniq 5 looks ok but it’s massive.

One thing that might pique a little more interest in the sport is to bring in a female driver or two, a Michelle Mouton for the next generation.
This may take some balls from a manufacturer, but I believe it would help the sport. M-Sport actually have got their eye on Lia Block. That would be a great fit IMO, as it fills the brief for a female driver, but also brings the association with Ken, and I’ve said before even though he wasn’t the greatest wrc driver the amount of exposure Ken used to generate for manufacturers with his gymkhana videos was possibly bigger than any they get from the wrc, where the drivers are invisible to the general public that have no interest in rally.

[djip]

It's either Full EV or Rally2.
Rally2 is easiest short term but will likely turn this into "clubsport" as manus will stop directly running teams. Issue with long term perspective ( over 3-5 years).
Manus are already running works Rally2 teams (save for Toyota by the lack of a car - but i suspect they will once the car is ready). So I don't see why this would become "clubsport". I see a lot of value of having "club teams" compete on equal footing qsith manuus. some may be surprised and any mistake would be paid immediately (by tumbling down the classification, not ensuring a 5-6th place finish whatsoever)

Running Rallye 2 for 2-3 years would buy time to see where the industry is going and if progress are made to enable "proper" rallying with EV or H2 cars.

[Norm75]

Manus are already running works Rally2 teams (save for Toyota by the lack of a car - but i suspect they will once the car is ready). So I don't see why this would become "clubsport". I see a lot of value of having "club teams" compete on equal footing qsith manuus. some may be surprised and any mistake would be paid immediately (by tumbling down the classification, not ensuring a 5-6th place finish whatsoever)

Running Rallye 2 for 2-3 years would buy time to see where the industry is going and if progress are made to enable "proper" rallying with EV or H2 cars.
Hyundai do. Skoda don’t, that is Toksport et al, Ford don’t it is m-sport, Volkswagen never ran rally 2 polo program, Citroen c3 is ph sport is it not? So until Toyota have their Yaris rally2 car and announce an official team it is only the one manu that actually runs a rally2 team.

[dimviii]

Hyundai do. Skoda don’t, that is Toksport et al, Ford don’t it is m-sport, Volkswagen never ran rally 2 polo program, Citroen c3 is ph sport is it not? So until Toyota have their Yaris rally2 car and announce an official team it is only the one manu that actually runs a rally2 team.

thats right,but its easy to change.

[macebig]

A "works" squad is irrelevant,in the bigger picture. Historically, rallying has never been about works squads with unlimited budgets. It started with privateers running nearly stock cars, went to specialists like Prodrive, Ralliart, TTE, MLP, R.E.D. and various other preparators improving showroom cars and only lately we have full manufacturer squads. Rally 2s can bring those specialists back, especially if the manufacturer homologation rule is lifted. Right now, it's the choice that makes the most sense for the next 3-5 years.

[steve.mandzij]

It's either Full EV or Rally2.

FullEV has largest possible manu support, but of those currently in it likely is only for Hyundai and maybe Ford. Most risky for many reasons.

Rally2 is easiest short term but will likely turn this into "clubsport" as manus will stop directly running teams. Issue with long term perspective ( over 3-5 years).There has to be room for compromise with expanded hybrids or range-extended EVs, because full EV with today's tech means the sport as we know it is going to change drastically from one day to the other — and everyone in WRC knows that this is not feasible yet

[AndyRAC]

A "works" squad is irrelevant,in the bigger picture. Historically, rallying has never been about works squads with unlimited budgets. It started with privateers running nearly stock cars, went to specialists like Prodrive, Ralliart, TTE, MLP, R.E.D. and various other preparators improving showroom cars and only lately we have full manufacturer squads. Rally 2s can bring those specialists back, especially if the manufacturer homologation rule is lifted. Right now, it's the choice that makes the most sense for the next 3-5 years.

Similar to GT3 racing, where most top teams are customer teams and supported by the manufacturer......

[J4MIE]

I remember when Ogier spent a year in a Fabia S2000 - it was absolutely brilliant to watch a top driver get everything out of it and more.
Rally2 cars aren't boring for anyone to watch if they are the best in the world, and that is a significant level above most really good national competitors.

[Bigalstosh99]

full EV with today's tech means the sport as we know it is going to change drastically

That is a good point. Power requirements across the leg of a rally, or even half a leg, are probably quite challenging for current battery technology.

[J4MIE]

That is a good point. Power requirements across the leg of a rally, or even half a leg, are probably quite challenging for current battery technology.

EV technology is still in its infancy, it’ll continue to improve as this is the big thing most folk are fearful of being stranded or having to stop and charge for 2 hours on your way somewhere.

Things will improve, other technology may come along and better it. I’m sure that coming up with engineering solutions to all the problems people complain about isn’t beyond human capabilities.

I remember watching a video of Paddon in an EV a year or two ago and nearly fell off my seat as it was so good to watch. Wow! Bring it on.

[mknight]

Again and again people talk about EVs like it's the year 2010...

Current EVs work just fine in practice (where there is fast-charging infrastructure).

More importantly they also work in a rally as Baumschlager has repeatedly demonstrated. For rally you obviously take the infrastructure with you (a few charging trailers with battery packs, enough for those 10 or so top cars).

People tend to forget that a rally car might use upto 1L of petrol per stage km and need a lot of refueling zones between stages.

If anything on some rallies you could have 5-10 min charging stops between stages. Small changes to schedule, sometimes not even that.
Off course there are/were some rallies that have stupid liasons, but those are a problem for other reasons too and sometimes get worked around ( Acropolis and Mexico before that shipping cars on trailers to/from superspecials).

It is all about the will to take a risk. Sure everything might not work immediately and the first rallies might be alien.

[Franky]

More importantly they also work in a rally as Baumschlager has repeatedly demonstrated.

Have they done anything with it after 2021? Just got curious and decided to check but only saw three entries from 2021.

[Kenneth]

Well these cars are being used in World Rallycross, so I guess they focus on that right now and don't really focus on use in rally.

[AndersX]

Actually, good discussions here. Not sure, though, how much of this can get through the FIA info gathering systems ( possibly their media monitor makes some summary from forums - at least it would be smart way to do).

I would say:

- think long term, by introducing EV as alternative championship step by step and switch to it if/when time arrives;

- use Rally2 as massive re-birth of rallying concept where at least 30 cars have the same tech.

- in case of Rally2, Manus teams will be better anyway - testing, engineering potential to find better set ups etc;

- WRC ROI for manus is doubtful today, because of high costs; get to R2, costs will decrease drastically, exposure will be the same, even bigger, car and comp sales will boom, talented guys will be able to perform right from the Day 1.

- drop that hybrid BS - it did not work for street cars, it wont work for rally - mainly because of the price impact. Time for damage control actions.

In conclusion, if FIA has guts and bright minds, it must go R2 for next Gen period till EVs or other alternatives are strong enough. Even if manus are protesting to R2, it would revitalize the rallying concept. Availability, accessability, competition will be good sales points of rallying again.

[fiscorpun]

Dacia may enter Dakar in 2025.
...Type of news that we would like to see in WRC =[

[wyler]

i'm not that optimistic in this rally2 picture...

roi for manus would be the same if the audience will stay the same. and it's a big if. a lot of people on the stage leave after rally1. they ll leave after top driver at best. same as for tv. outside of here (intended as hard-core fan) there could be a drop in interest just because the show is less fun for tv watchers/occasional attendees.

rally2 will equalize competition. would be nice, but i don't buy it. put rovampera vs loubet in a rally and they ll stay the same, they ll not be magically even. top tier drivers will make a difference, and people will get bored following 30 second tier. take erc example: there's competition when drivers are more or less the same level. put in paddon and already there's no chance for championship, there's a battle only when he's cruising for points. and he's not top tier.

private will compete with manus. nah, manus will use all the budget they have to get advantage, in a field or another.

hope to be wrong, anyway...

[lmmjvss]

How about this idea... Tell me if "theres something here" or not.

- New top class to become 2013-16 old wrc specs cars built by Msport, ProDrive and Vermont. Those cars were already so fun to watch, just have these 3 OEMs building them and selling. I THINK this would make it easier AND CHEAPER for people like Petter Solberg, Prokop, Nasser Al Athya, Toksport, Ralliart, Qatar, RedGrey, EKS, to run a "two car team" in the championship's top class. There are rich privateers that would be able to afford this model too, like Fourmaux, Gus, Loubet.. I dont know. But it would OPEN this possibility for more rich privateers to "race on the top world class", stuff that is almost impossible right now. And since WRC is going to "Arab countries" and America, this cheaper formula could also attract teams and drivers from these places. They have a lot of money over there. (Qatar, Emirates...)
I can even see WRC having "only this new top class" instead of having Rally1 AND Rally2. Like, kinda "forcing" more Rally2 riders and teams to get into this new top class, leaving Rally2 for ERC and National series only (not sure about this, just thinking out loud). TO have more classes, WRC could have Rally3 (which sound like a good formula) + those "Race what you bring" class, cuz rally fans love to see those cars, lets be honest.
On top of that, if a manufacturer wants to have a team, they can only enter by building a car on that same 2013-16 specs AND CAPED ON BUDGET - for them to be on the same level as the costumer/privateers like them or not - but on electric or hydrogen engines! That would also open some conversations with renault and their R5 3e, or conversations with Kressel and their electric engine KIT. Toyota could make their Hydrogen car... heck, or even SPARK and Williams could build a Hydrogen car. Idk, it opens the top class for stuff like that and its a relative cheaper spec, right? I mean... I think it is.... do you think theres something in this idea? Or its a NO NO haha

Then we gotta start changing the weekend format, of course. Points per LEG/day, no more power stage points, changing the time between cars cuz fans are already waiting too much to see cars (ok, sfety and visibility play a role here), gotta change sometihing regarding where and when cars are fixed (giving more importance to service park. It also gotta be more open), then we gotta start changing the package sold to TV/Cable and on Youtube, cuz 3 day highlights are WAY TOO MUCH for WRC to grab attentions. I like the 22 to 40min full highlights of the weekend, with WAY LESS stage-end interviews cuz thats sooo boring and we KNOW we only waiting for someone to say something interesting, which happens ONCE per weekend haha Maybe something more close to those "bloopers" from Dirt Fish ON THESE 20 to 40 min highlights. Idk... I just want things to improve

[becher]

How about this idea... Tell me if "theres something here" or not.

- New top class to become 2013-16 old wrc specs cars built by Msport, ProDrive and Vermont. Those cars were already so fun to watch, just have these 3 OEMs building them and selling. I THINK this would make it easier AND CHEAPER for people like Petter Solberg, Prokop, Nasser Al Athya, Toksport, Ralliart, Qatar, RedGrey, EKS, to run a "two car team" in the championship's top class. There are rich privateers that would be able to afford this model too, like Fourmaux, Gus, Loubet.. I dont know. But it would OPEN this possibility for more rich privateers to "race on the top world class", stuff that is almost impossible right now. And since WRC is going to "Arab countries" and America, this cheaper formula could also attract teams and drivers from these places. They have a lot of money over there. (Qatar, Emirates...)
I can even see WRC having "only this new top class" instead of having Rally1 AND Rally2. Like, kinda "forcing" more Rally2 riders and teams to get into this new top class, leaving Rally2 for ERC and National series only (not sure about this, just thinking out loud). TO have more classes, WRC could have Rally3 (which sound like a good formula) + those "Race what you bring" class, cuz rally fans love to see those cars, lets be honest.
On top of that, if a manufacturer wants to have a team, they can only enter by building a car on that same 2013-16 specs AND CAPED ON BUDGET - for them to be on the same level as the costumer/privateers like them or not - but on electric or hydrogen engines! That would also open some conversations with renault and their R5 3e, or conversations with Kressel and their electric engine KIT. Toyota could make their Hydrogen car... heck, or even SPARK and Williams could build a Hydrogen car. Idk, it opens the top class for stuff like that and its a relative cheaper spec, right? I mean... I think it is.... do you think theres something in this idea? Or its a NO NO haha

Then we gotta start changing the weekend format, of course. Points per LEG/day, no more power stage points, changing the time between cars cuz fans are already waiting too much to see cars (ok, sfety and visibility play a role here), gotta change sometihing regarding where and when cars are fixed (giving more importance to service park. It also gotta be more open), then we gotta start changing the package sold to TV/Cable and on Youtube, cuz 3 day highlights are WAY TOO MUCH for WRC to grab attentions. I like the 22 to 40min full highlights of the weekend, with WAY LESS stage-end interviews cuz thats sooo boring and we KNOW we only waiting for someone to say something interesting, which happens ONCE per weekend haha Maybe something more close to those "bloopers" from Dirt Fish ON THESE 20 to 40 min highlights. Idk... I just want things to improve
OEM = original equipment manufacturer i.e. a car manufacturer not a rally team/engineering company running old cars.

[seb_sh]

Toyota showed a hydrogen prototype concept at Le Mans and dropped hints it wants hydrogen in the WRC too. I'd much rather have hydrogen than electric tbh.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/toyota-drops-further-hints-it-wants-hydrogen-wrc-future/

[Kenneth]

Well Toyota hinted that already by presenting the ICE hydrogen Yaris at Ypres lol

[seb_sh]

Well Toyota hinted that already by presenting the ICE hydrogen Yaris at Ypres lol

And they reiterated at a moment when much more eyes and ears are on them than at Ypres. Considering that Hyundai is also interested and Cyril was at Le Mans too btw I think we are getting the answer to this thread. Toyota plans to race a hydrogen car at Le Mans in 2026. This is WRC's chance to catch up and stop being the laggard that it has been for the last 20 years. Let's see what happens.

[fiscorpun]

Jeeez WRC, FIA RedBull...
Just let Toyota run their Hydrogen car and Renault race their electric car. Build them up to Rally2 specs. I like that idea. Skoda is already there, they have new cars, they have Kressel with electric kits at Rally2 specs-ISH... Msport would be even more active in that class, Hyundai is active on that class - plus thousand cars sold around the world for that class. Thats solved. I dont understand why this is not happening.

[Kenneth]

I might be wrong here, but don't Hyundai want to use hydrogen fuelcell powered electric cars, rather than ICE like Toyota?

But for real, WRC need to loosen up to rules a bit. They could get inspiraction from LMDh, where anyone can build their car on one of four different spec chassis from four different manufacturers (and none of them is big auto brand). WRC is killing itself by letting only big auto makers build and homologate a rally car.

[lmmjvss]

They could get inspiraction from LMDh, where anyone can build their car on one of four different spec chassis from four different manufacturers (and none of them is big auto brand). WRC is killing itself by letting only big auto makers build and homologate a rally car.

Thats part of my suggestion. Have Msport, Prodrive, Vermont, etc building/transforming the "cars". Let teams, rich privateers BUY them like in Rally2... But for the top class (at WRC's 2013-16 specs, which were already great). We are not gonna have 10k car solds like in rally2 of course, but at this point, if theres 15 cars, ITS A GOLDEN AGE compared to current what? 6 cars? (Sorry Loubet)

[becher]

I might be wrong here, but don't Hyundai want to use hydrogen fuelcell powered electric cars, rather than ICE like Toyota?

But for real, WRC need to loosen up to rules a bit. They could get inspiraction from LMDh, where anyone can build their car on one of four different spec chassis from four different manufacturers (and none of them is big auto brand). WRC is killing itself by letting only big auto makers build and homologate a rally car.
But as I already mentioned, LMDh is not loose, it is very strict with basically everything a spec component bar a few things here and there. In my opinion it is not worthy of a top class, let alone fits to what you would want. LMH is much more like it, but in rallying we never really had the problems that led to BOP formulas like LMH so I don't see a point in it to be honest.

[Franky]

If Rally2 cars would become the top category cars, then we would have another naming clusterfuck on our hands with Rally2 and Rally1.

[Sulland]

If Rally2 cars would become the top category cars, then we would have another naming clusterfuck on our hands with Rally2 and Rally1.

Why, we will just park the rally1 name until we will see a new Rally1 class.

[AndyRAC]

But as I already mentioned, LMDh is not loose, it is very strict with basically everything a spec component bar a few things here and there. In my opinion it is not worthy of a top class, let alone fits to what you would want. LMH is much more like it, but in rallying we never really had the problems that led to BOP formulas like LMH so I don't see a point in it to be honest.

And yet plenty of manufacturers have signed up for both categories......and others are showing interest. Meanwhile the WRC flounders attracting nobody....

[becher]

Because its cheap as f*uck for what it offers, there are more reasons why manufacturers get involved in a certain series. I think a detail explanation on who is there because of this or that in sportscar racing would be too off topic. Just look back 20 years and compare the state of sportscar racing with rallying, peaks and troughs.

[Kenneth]

The point is, it's extremely easy to get into indurance racing. You either build cheap car based on one of four spec chassis with spec hybrid, or if you really want to win, you have good engineers and facilities, you spend more money and build LMH.. But it's easy and it's cheap, just look how many privateers start in WEC and IMSA. There are even privateers that build their own cars.

And Rally1 isn't that far from LMDh. There are spec safety cell and spec hybrid unit. Space frame is easy to make and it's also cheap. Then there are the expensive and useless engines, which are all pretty same, and it's imo major gatekeeper for teams that would like to get into WRC.

So why not allow build Rally1 car in similar way to LMDh? Choose 4 companies that would build spec chassis and allow competitors to buy them. Choose 4 part makers for every parts that will be spec. Make engines based on road cars again and let everyone to convert the engine. Or force manus to sell these engines like it's in F1. And then just let anyone build Rally1 like a lego.

Well I wouldn't be mad at all if Rally1 would become semi spec series. After all now it's not that far from spec series with how much strict ruleset is there.

[becher]

The point is, it's extremely easy to get into indurance racing. You either build cheap car based on one of four spec chassis with spec hybrid, or if you really want to win, you have good engineers and facilities, you spend more money and build LMH.. But it's easy and it's cheap, just look how many privateers start in WEC and IMSA. There are even privateers that build their own cars.

And Rally1 isn't that far from LMDh. There are spec safety cell and spec hybrid unit. Space frame is easy to make and it's also cheap. Then there are the expensive and useless engines, which are all pretty same, and it's imo major gatekeeper for teams that would like to get into WRC.

So why not allow build Rally1 car in similar way to LMDh? Choose 4 companies that would build spec chassis and allow competitors to buy them. Choose 4 part makers for every parts that will be spec. Make engines based on road cars again and let everyone to convert the engine. Or force manus to sell these engines like it's in F1. And then just let anyone build Rally1 like a lego.

Well I wouldn't be mad at all if Rally1 would become semi spec series. After all now it's not that far from spec series with how much strict ruleset is there.

I get your point, my the anti spec thinking is very much ideological. I don't mind a few things here and there, but a spec chassis from third party suppliers is big no no for a top class. I'm even against the spec electrical unit, but of course I'm not dumb enough to think it would be feasible to have each develop their own.

The one thing that is a big difference from sportscar racing to rallying is the big interest by rich gentleman drivers and the classic race car market, plenty of chassis (even some works cars) are owned (maybe even funded to a degree) by speculative investors with an eye on selling them in a few years time when they won some big endurance races. Even the gentleman drivers are not like Serderidis, they often fund their professional co drivers and even the teams or construction of whole cars sometimes. In general there seems to be more loose money in sportscar racing than rallying and I'm not sure a change in ruleset magically changes that.

[fiscorpun]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/david-evans-the-time-for-answers-has-come-in-the-wrc/

I love David's writting style and hes great on videos and podcast.... but DirtFish trying to be a CONTENT MACHINE keeps having these articles that say NOTHING. Its an Incredible hability haha

[steve.mandzij]

The point is, it's extremely easy to get into indurance racing. You either build cheap car based on one of four spec chassis with spec hybrid, or if you really want to win, you have good engineers and facilities, you spend more money and build LMH.. But it's easy and it's cheap, just look how many privateers start in WEC and IMSA. There are even privateers that build their own cars.

And Rally1 isn't that far from LMDh. There are spec safety cell and spec hybrid unit. Space frame is easy to make and it's also cheap. Then there are the expensive and useless engines, which are all pretty same, and it's imo major gatekeeper for teams that would like to get into WRC.

So why not allow build Rally1 car in similar way to LMDh? Choose 4 companies that would build spec chassis and allow competitors to buy them. Choose 4 part makers for every parts that will be spec. Make engines based on road cars again and let everyone to convert the engine. Or force manus to sell these engines like it's in F1. And then just let anyone build Rally1 like a lego.

Well I wouldn't be mad at all if Rally1 would become semi spec series. After all now it's not that far from spec series with how much strict ruleset is there.I agree with this take. For sure the WRC has to take notes from the mega successful Hypercar/LMDh reg change. Just look how many new manufacturers have joined or will join — even without full ev regulations!

[NaBUru38]

The point is, it's extremely easy to get into indurance racing. You either build cheap car based on one of four spec chassis with spec hybrid, or if you really want to win, you have good engineers and facilities, you spend more money and build LMH.. But it's easy and it's cheap, just look how many privateers start in WEC and IMSA. There are even privateers that build their own cars.
A LMDh is much cheaper than a Hypercar, but it's still quite expensive.

A 963 costs 2.5 million euros, and a season costs 10 million euros.

[NaBUru38]

I don't think that the WRC is the most reasonable place to spend tens of millions to race in the top class.

TCR is a good example of how to produce cheap racecars with good performance.

[becher]

A LMDh is much cheaper than a Hypercar, but it's still quite expensive.

A 963 costs 2.5 million euros, and a season costs 10 million euros.

And a Rally1 is not even half of that, yet teams spend significantly more in the WRC than they do in WEC. Granted, WRC gives more exposure than WEC but still, the car cost is not the defining factor.

[AndyRAC]

Granted, WRC gives more exposure than WEC but still, the car cost is not the defining factor.

That's debatable....and hard to believe - but if it's true it's even more damning on those running the WRC.

[Tauri_J]

Le Mans win is greater than any WRC title by a long shot.

[becher]

Le Mans win is greater than any WRC title by a long shot.
A Le Mans win is greater than anything, nothing offers more marketing potential. It is the biggest sporting event in the world full stop.

But the overall reach of WEC is way smaller than WRC. WRC is still the second biggest FIA championship by a long shot and by that metric one of the only international series with significant reach. Granted, WEC is doing a very good job promoting its product at the moment whereas WRC is doing a bad job since like forever.

[fiscorpun]

A Le Mans win is greater than anything, nothing offers more marketing potential. It is the biggest sporting event in the world full stop.

Mate, sorry, but thats just wrong.
An F1 title is the biggest (prestigious/marketing tool) thing out there AND I'd almost bet that any F1 race has a bigger global audience reach than LeMans or Indy500 or Dakar.....

[Kenneth]

A LMDh is much cheaper than a Hypercar, but it's still quite expensive.

A 963 costs 2.5 million euros, and a season costs 10 million euros.

I'm not saying that WRC should use LeMans prototype. I'm saying that Rally1 should get inspiraction from the the semi spec way of how teams can get into WEC.

Oreca kit didn't cost 2.5 milion either.

[becher]

Mate, sorry, but thats just wrong.
An F1 title is the biggest (prestigious/marketing tool) thing out there AND I'd almost bet that any F1 race has a bigger global audience reach than LeMans or Indy500 or Dakar.....

No it's not, it is the biggest sporting event overall in the world, not just motorsport. According to non motorsport publications that is, so no pro bias there.

The marketing reach of participating in F1 might be bigger because F1 is in the head of even non motorsport people, but those people thought Renault built the cars for Red Bull in their 2010-2013 championship run.... But winning in F1 is not that much of a big marketing tool, winning Le Mans is a very simple and powerful tool for car manufacturers.

[fiscorpun]

No it's not, it is the biggest sporting event overall in the world, not just motorsport.
.

World Cup finals, Olimpics, NBA, NFL SuperBowl, Uefa Champions....?

[fiscorpun]

The marketing reach of participating in F1 might be bigger because F1 is in the head of even non motorsport people, but those people thought Renault built the cars for Red Bull in their 2010-2013 championship run.... But winning in F1 is not that much of a big marketing tool, winning Le Mans is a very simple and powerful tool for car manufacturers.

And still "people think renault built red bull cars" and they know lewis, vettel, alonso, raikkonen... Even button and max.
Ask people who won LeMans in 2018.
The answer is probably just "What?"
Theres no way LeMans is all of that mate.. its like indycar fans saying the Indy500 is the biggest and most important race of the planet or Nascar fans saying that the race in Charlotte (? I guess?) is the biggest race on the planet.

People know MERCEDES and Ferrari because of F1... People dont even know the word* "WEC". Sorry
Not trying to bashing u, mate. I dont speal english very well so that may have sounded rude. Not my intention

[Jarek Z]

No it's not, it is the biggest sporting event overall in the world, not just motorsport.

I like your enthusiasm, but I think you are a little too optimistic :)

[seb_sh]

No it's not, it is the biggest sporting event overall in the world, not just motorsport. According to non motorsport publications that is, so no pro bias there.

The marketing reach of participating in F1 might be bigger because F1 is in the head of even non motorsport people, but those people thought Renault built the cars for Red Bull in their 2010-2013 championship run.... But winning in F1 is not that much of a big marketing tool, winning Le Mans is a very simple and powerful tool for car manufacturers.

I'll add to the choir saying you've got your wires crossed. What's the source saying this? Perhaps they are just referring to spectators on site? I heard 325.000 this year. But that's not that important, F1 has way more marketing value.

[rallyfiend]

No it's not, it is the biggest sporting event overall in the world, not just motorsport. According to non motorsport publications that is, so no pro bias there.

The marketing reach of participating in F1 might be bigger because F1 is in the head of even non motorsport people, but those people thought Renault built the cars for Red Bull in their 2010-2013 championship run.... But winning in F1 is not that much of a big marketing tool, winning Le Mans is a very simple and powerful tool for car manufacturers.

Ok, now you're just making stuff up. I agree that any one F1 event probably has a bigger TV audience than all of Le Mans, and even the Australian F1 event had more spectators just earlier this year....

[doubled1978]

It isn’t a who has got the biggest you know what competition. The WEC is overall a small series than WRC globally, but it does have the jewel in the crown of Le Mans, which does offer fantastic marketing potential. Le Mans also has the benefit of the brand being the headline maker, not the driver.
Whatever to picture, the WEC/Le Mans and sportscars globally have done a great job in attracting OEM’s to the competition, WEC alone will have 8 factory teams (not including the independents) competing next season, and Honda/Acura also have a car that could enter should they decide to do so.
We need to ask why? Is it the pull of Le Mans?
The cost is clearly much lower than previously, and the hybrid element of the cars is not anything like as technically advanced as LMP1, indeed it isn’t even a performance item as the hybrid power replaces engine power when it activates rather than adding to the overall power as in WRC or LMP1 previously. I’ve seen an interview with the Peugeot Team Principal and he described the hybrid systems in Hypercar as ballast.

For me, WRC has gone down a hole with these very expensive cars that WEC did with the hybrid LMP1 cars. For WRC to become attractive, the cost

[denkimi]

The only way to make the sport cheaper is to have only 1 manufacturer. Then they can spend the minimum and still win.
As soon as you have multiple, the cost will always be what they think the value of winning is. So as long as toyota and Hyundai want to spend 100 million or so per season to be able to day they are wrc champions, the others will have to do the same to keep up.
Even if you would downsize to rally2 cars, they will still spend roughly the same amount if that is what it takes to win. But while doing so they will also make rally2 way more expensive than it is today if you want to be at the front.

It's all down to how much marketing value a sport has, and nothing else. That why nobody cares about football when women are playing.

[seb_sh]

The only way to make the sport cheaper is to have only 1 manufacturer. Then they can spend the minimum and still win.
As soon as you have multiple, the cost will always be what they think the value of winning is. So as long as toyota and Hyundai want to spend 100 million or so per season to be able to day they are wrc champions, the others will have to do the same to keep up.
Even if you would downsize to rally2 cars, they will still spend roughly the same amount if that is what it takes to win. But while doing so they will also make rally2 way more expensive than it is today if you want to be at the front.

It's all down to how much marketing value a sport has, and nothing else. That why nobody cares about football when women are playing.

Not true, WEC has BOP and Formula 1 has the cost cap. Both are super successful right now.

[becher]

Ok, now you're just making stuff up. I agree that any one F1 event probably has a bigger TV audience than all of Le Mans, and even the Australian F1 event had more spectators just earlier this year....

If you're being rude, at least read my complete post. Not my words, according to National Geographic.

[becher]

Not true, WEC has BOP and Formula 1 has the cost cap. Both are super successful right now.

Cost cap could work, rallying showed in the past 20 years that BOP is not needed.

But if a cost cap of lets say 20 million (Toyota is rumoured to be on 60 million currently isn't it?) would be enough to entice manufacturers is questionable.

[becher]

And still "people think renault built red bull cars" and they know lewis, vettel, alonso, raikkonen... Even button and max.
Ask people who won LeMans in 2018.
The answer is probably just "What?"
Theres no way LeMans is all of that mate.. its like indycar fans saying the Indy500 is the biggest and most important race of the planet or Nascar fans saying that the race in Charlotte (? I guess?) is the biggest race on the planet.

People know MERCEDES and Ferrari because of F1... People dont even know the word* "WEC". Sorry
Not trying to bashing u, mate. I dont speal english very well so that may have sounded rude. Not my intention

No problem, most around here aren't native speakers I think.

[denkimi]

Not true, WEC has BOP and Formula 1 has the cost cap. Both are super successful right now.
successful how? are the championships more equal now? have they made anything better in any way?

the only things cost caps do is make the teams do creative bookkeeping and outsource as much as possible to get around them. the big teams are still way ahead of the small ones and will always be.
i would like for it to be easier/cheaper go get into wrc somehow, but the reality is that any manufacturer that wants to have a chance to win will need to spend roughly as much as their competitors do.

it's simple. you want to beat toyota, you have to spend as much or more than toyota. which will make toyota spend more if they also really want the title. so in the end the cost to win a the title in a mechanical sport is always the biggest amount of cash any of the competitors is willing to throw at it.

[Kenneth]

successful how? are the championships more equal now? have they made anything better in any way?


Yes and yes. Both championships are more equal, both championships are more interesting, both championships have more viewers and both championships have more interest from manufacturers.


it's simple. you want to beat toyota, you have to spend as much or more than toyota. Sure, so make it look like WEC few years ago, when no team wanted to spend so much money to beat Toyota, so Toyota were competing alone. That's what you want?

[doubled1978]

I’m not so much in favour of a cost cap system particularly as like the fella above said, creative bookkeeping can render the cap pointless.
BOP works, whether people like it or not, series that employ it in whatever guise do better in terms of manufacture involvement and participation. F1 can get away without it because it’s F1.
The WEC formula is a good one, the cars have to all go through the Sauber wind tunnel and fit into a Max/Min vales of downforce and drag. Energy usage is controlled and then BOP on top of that if required. The need to spend huge on development is negated simply because the car will either not comply to the pre-set Max/Min values or get BOP restricted to slow it down.
Whatever the new WRC class is to be could use similar principals to keep costs under control.

[becher]

Yes and yes. Both championships are more equal, both championships are more interesting, both championships have more viewers and both championships have more interest from manufacturers.

Sure, so make it look like WEC few years ago, when no team wanted to spend so much money to beat Toyota, so Toyota were competing alone. That's what you want?

WRC had much fewer "no hoper" cars in the last 20 years than either sportscar racing or F1. Since 2017 everyone had a winning car bar the post covid Fiesta. In circuit racing this is unheard of and BOP is mostly needed to prevent hopeless developments or include unsuitable cars (think GT3 Bentley by M Sport) but again in rallying no one tried a silly base car since more than 20 years or so. Would BOP change anything at the moment? Would it change anything in future regulations?

[seb_sh]

About cost cap: While true that financial "optimisations" can be done and most likely are already put in place by most teams in F1 there is a limit of what they can actually do. Moreover the teams watch eachother like hawks so it's somewhat self policing between them as well. The result, while it's true that Red Bull are dominating at the moment, in fact it is the tightest difference between the first and last car ever. The ATR/windtunnel restrictions and show and tell rules will gradually work to reduce that difference. Also keep in mind that 20 years ago teams were being sold for a nominal $1 whereas now they are worth hundreds of millions going towards a billion. Audi is paying hundreds of millions for 75% of Sauber. If that's not a healthy championship then I don't know what is.

To those that suggest the cost cap is innefective because it can be bypassed I suggest you educate yourselves on how it works in detail. Now if you suggest to me, like an acquaintance recently did, that it's just for show and just a giant conspiracy between the teams the FIA and the 3rd party international auditor and that in fact the cost cap has no effect than I will not reply anymore since I'd rather not waste my time ;)

About BOP: BOP has the effect to limit spending because it stops chasing diminishing returns for increased costs. It's not just to help unsuitable cars in GT3 it's also a hard cap on performance. Yes it takes some budget to get to the reference but afterwards it's a hard limit on outright performance. Afterwards you need to have the best team and execute the races well. Yes it's very political and controversial. Still, I watched Group C fall when it became to expensive, then GT1 then LMP1 Hybrid (not to mention other categories or series). I'd rather have BOP than nothing. Also WEC is incredibly successful. This year there was record or near record crowd at Le Mans with over 300.000 tickets sold out half a year in advance. There are more manufacturers than almost ever. Because so many people want to race in the top category they are having to drop LMP2 from the WEC because they don't fit in the pitlane anymore. This year's Le Mans went down to the last 30 minutes or so between two teams with 5 different manufacturers leading the race at some point on merit. If that's not succesfull I don't know what is.

I'm not saying the WRC needs to take one of these and implement it, they need to find their own way or adapt one of those. But doing nothing will just make it lose out. Again.

[lmmjvss]

How do they run things in america? Look at those Baja and Desert racing. (I know.. "Its different", but its "rally", so just join the ride... haha) They have TONS of entries, and those trucks are TOUGH! No actual manufacturer competing, its just people and teams and OEMs building those machines... I like this concept. Maybe there is something to learn from them? Rally1 cars are already roll cages with engines and aerokits... Can a cultural shift happen somehow? (More people/teams/oems building stuff and selling)

[Kenneth]

You don't have took to the America. Dakar does the same already. Anyone can build car there with variety of engines. And there are a lot of entries from various makers, privateers, or tuners.

For example, Martin Prokop is building his Ford Raptor in his team. Well if a privateers can build Dakar car, I'm sure that huge teams like Prodrive, GCK or Oreca will be able to build Rally1 car.

[becher]

About cost cap: While true that financial "optimisations" can be done and most likely are already put in place by most teams in F1 there is a limit of what they can actually do. Moreover the teams watch eachother like hawks so it's somewhat self policing between them as well. The result, while it's true that Red Bull are dominating at the moment, in fact it is the tightest difference between the first and last car ever. The ATR/windtunnel restrictions and show and tell rules will gradually work to reduce that difference. Also keep in mind that 20 years ago teams were being sold for a nominal $1 whereas now they are worth hundreds of millions going towards a billion. Audi is paying hundreds of millions for 75% of Sauber. If that's not a healthy championship then I don't know what is.

To those that suggest the cost cap is innefective because it can be bypassed I suggest you educate yourselves on how it works in detail. Now if you suggest to me, like an acquaintance recently did, that it's just for show and just a giant conspiracy between the teams the FIA and the 3rd party international auditor and that in fact the cost cap has no effect than I will not reply anymore since I'd rather not waste my time ;)

About BOP: BOP has the effect to limit spending because it stops chasing diminishing returns for increased costs. It's not just to help unsuitable cars in GT3 it's also a hard cap on performance. Yes it takes some budget to get to the reference but afterwards it's a hard limit on outright performance. Afterwards you need to have the best team and execute the races well. Yes it's very political and controversial. Still, I watched Group C fall when it became to expensive, then GT1 then LMP1 Hybrid (not to mention other categories or series). I'd rather have BOP than nothing. Also WEC is incredibly successful. This year there was record or near record crowd at Le Mans with over 300.000 tickets sold out half a year in advance. There are more manufacturers than almost ever. Because so many people want to race in the top category they are having to drop LMP2 from the WEC because they don't fit in the pitlane anymore. This year's Le Mans went down to the last 30 minutes or so between two teams with 5 different manufacturers leading the race at some point on merit. If that's not succesfull I don't know what is.

I'm not saying the WRC needs to take one of these and implement it, they need to find their own way or adapt one of those. But doing nothing will just make it lose out. Again.

I appreciate your argument for BOP but still rallying stayed true to straight regulations for so long and had a working championship competion wise (=> most/all cars being on a similar level most of the time) almost all of the time in the last 30 years. Also I don't think that the cost of the cars or their fairly limited development is the big budget factor, otherwise M Sport wouldn't be able to come out with a competitive car on a shoe string and than stay in the hunt for at least 2-3 years. Rallying is just hugely expensive when you consider what all goes with it compared to running a similarly "complicated" car in a professional circuit racing championship for 13 races.

The reason the cost cap increased the value of teams is because there is revenue in F1 which thanks to the cost cap is now in many cases bigger than the cost, but that revenue doesn't exist in WRC. So we would need the foundation first to achieve a sort of franchise status that F1 now has. Of course a cost cap could still work even without that, but would it entice manufacturers on its own?

[djip]

I am afraid BoP would be very hard to implement in WRC where terrain is very different from one rally to the next, from one stage to the next, even from one car to the next (when showers arise ..). Nothing like circuit racing where you drop the car in a wind tunnel, evaluate the downforce and provide adjustments - then everyonne one runs in the same condictions year in, year out and tweaks can be made with simple ballast.

As said, performance of cars is already prretty much balanced for all manufacturers, whether in Rally1 or rally2. The only issue is not enough teams/cars, because (i) outrageous cost and (ii) stupid regulation forbiding tuners to enter (which is called greed as FIA wants manufacturers to pay big entrry fees).

So to my opinion only 2 options :
1- Scale down to Rally2 - not Rally2 +, just basic rally2. There is a huge base of cars already in the field. Not to metion that this iw what rallying is all about : all competitors on (more or less) equal footing
2- Create a spec category with many standard parts (subframe, hybrid unit, gearbox, ...) open to all (importers and tuners included) provided of course it relates to some road car.

On both cases top teams would always remain on top, but the competition would be heated with small mistakes payed cash (=dropping dow the order) and the odd private entrant/specialist having the day of his life and fighting with the big boys. Lot more uncertainty, lot more fun ad better stories for the promoter. Back to the 90's GpA or the 70-80's Gp4 days !

I understand we'll loose the woaw effect of the current Rally 1 machines, but do you want a 6 cars show (once one of the current manufacturers out) ? All of us who also go and spectate second tier events (ERC, national) know that a well driven Rally2 car can put up a great show... if not compared to bigger/faster machinery.

[seb_sh]

Of course a cost cap could still work even without that, but would it entice manufacturers on its own?

That's the question, isn't it? I personally don't think that taking that taking X or Y from another series and applying it to WRC is the solution. But also rejecting everything isn't either. WRC needs to find its own secret sauce but there are things out there that work and shouldn't be ignored.

In WRC there are already a bunch of cost saving measures like limited testing, limited tyres, limited diff spec. I am asking myself lately how well these are working and if they are actually good for the sport. Like the one diff spec that makes a car work for a driver but not another surely can't be good for the competition. Is that really the right place to save costs? What if instead they save costs on aero development with a BOP style rule just for the aero? And then is just the cost the issue or is it also the marketing value, should they work more on the presentation? The only "bright" idea the promoter has had lately is to create a 24/7 Rally TV Channel on the internet in 2023 where everyone can stream whatever they want whenever they want on demand...

[becher]

That's the question, isn't it? I personally don't think that taking that taking X or Y from another series and applying it to WRC is the solution. But also rejecting everything isn't either. WRC needs to find its own secret sauce but there are things out there that work and shouldn't be ignored.

In WRC there are already a bunch of cost saving measures like limited testing, limited tyres, limited diff spec. I am asking myself lately how well these are working and if they are actually good for the sport. Like the one diff spec that makes a car work for a driver but not another surely can't be good for the competition. Is that really the right place to save costs? What if instead they save costs on aero development with a BOP style rule just for the aero? And then is just the cost the issue or is it also the marketing value, should they work more on the presentation? The only "bright" idea the promoter has had lately is to create a 24/7 Rally TV Channel on the internet in 2023 where everyone can stream whatever they want whenever they want on demand...

Yeah thats the point, just taking ideas from somewhere else is too simplistic. And I agree, many cost saving measures don't really work (especially limiting certain technical aspects) as teams just spend more than before because they develop in more intricate meaners. But BOP for aero seems like a moot point in the Rally1 era. Was there anything significant in that area? Don't think so. It's also not the defining factor performance wise.

[seb_sh]

Yeah thats the point, just taking ideas from somewhere else is too simplistic. And I agree, many cost saving measures don't really work (especially limiting certain technical aspects) as teams just spend more than before because they develop in more intricate meaners. But BOP for aero seems like a moot point in the Rally1 era. Was there anything significant in that area? Don't think so. It's also not the defining factor performance wise.

Obviously aero BOP wouldn't be enough by itself but could be part of a package. Usually aero development is expensive so putting a cap on aero efficiency would cap spending in that area. you'd have to know where money goes and decide what's worth it and what's not and that's something we can't decide on the forum.

[fiscorpun]

Has anyone seen this? The FIA Road Map for Sustainable Energies in Motorsport?

WRC can have H2 and EVs starting in 2025

https://e-formula.news/e-series/e-racing-news/e-racing-news-detail/fia-plans-new-electric-championships-with-sports-cars-from-2024-climate-protection-roadmap-for-motorsport-published-42761

PS: Extreme-E is not a FIA series. AMC (Automobile Club de Monaco) is the governing body. Interesting. Never knew this thing existed. They are behind both Monte Carlo races (F1, WRC)

[Eli]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/fia-closing-in-on-wrc-2025-regulations-after-estonia-meeting/10500583/

Would be nice if they'd at least give us some details for what the next step is, and stop pretending they're the secret four or whatever.

[seb_sh]

Next step is to keep Rally1 more or less the same I presume. I don't think they know about 2027 and after.

[denkimi]

I just realised that one of the things that take up enormous amounts of time, testing and mony, being shock absorbers, could easily made a standard cheaper design if it would be made mandatory for all teams. It would also bring the cars closer to each other and could make the driving more spectacular if done right.

[RS]

You don't have took to the America. Dakar does the same already. Anyone can build car there with variety of engines. And there are a lot of entries from various makers, privateers, or tuners.

For example, Martin Prokop is building his Ford Raptor in his team. Well if a privateers can build Dakar car, I'm sure that huge teams like Prodrive, GCK or Oreca will be able to build Rally1 car.

Since Rally1 cars are not proper rally cars those organisations you mention can do this already (if they can fund it and find a manufacturer to stick their badge and headlights on it)

[Kenneth]

Yeah, but the point is that they don't need to find manufacturers at Dakar. Several teams showed that they can build rally car, but finding support of manufacturers is the hardest part.

Just remember the Corsa R5.

[RS]

But if they don't find a manufacturer then they have to find funding elsewhere, and if they can find that then why wouldn't a manufacturer agree if it isn't going to cost them anything?

My guess is that if Toyota are indeed spending 60 million euros, that amount wouldn't provde ROI for an external sponsor.

[Kenneth]

In Dakar there are teams that can run team without manufacturers.

And I don't know why manufacturer wouldn't agree. But try to ask Opel, Mitsubishi, Suzuki and others.

[denkimi]

But if they don't find a manufacturer then they have to find funding elsewhere, and if they can find that then why wouldn't a manufacturer agree if it isn't going to cost them anything?

My guess is that if Toyota are indeed spending 60 million euros, that amount wouldn't provde ROI for an external sponsor.
because constructors have no control over what happens when they don't pay, and it could result in bad publicity.

The need to have a constructor is a insurmountable obstacle for anyone who wants to build anything. And not just in rc1, but in every class of rallying. I could probably build myself a competitive rc5 or rc4, but i can never get to use it outside of some local regulations because I am no manufacturer and I can't get it homologated.

It seems the rules are specifically designed to discourage projects that are not backed up by the ever shrinking number of manufacturers, making it effectively impossible to build a car without the permission of one of the huge auto groups.

Dakar has the luck it is ruled by ASO and not by the FIA, or it would have died long ago.

[Eli]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/does-hybrid-have-a-future-in-the-wrc/

Here we go again.

[lmmjvss]

Jesus Christ

[fiscorpun]

Extreme-E is going Hydrogen for 2025. And they will become an FIA World Championship. Not sure if the "exclusivity clausule" will be in place, making it impossible for WRC ("Off Road" championship) to go Hydrogen (like F1 CANT go electric because of F-E - "open wheel").

[MentalParadox]

After viewing this video, I will now shill relentlessly for hydrogen over electric as the future of the WRC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dgzKW8EKMc

[EstWRC]

Michelin expected to submit WRC tyre tender bid

Michelin will submit a bid to become the World Rally Championship's control tyre supplier from 2025-2027, Motorsport.com understands.

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/michelin-expected-to-submit-wrc-tyre-tender-bid/10519296/

[106 sport]

"The WRC promoter wants to come to Gran Canaria to run the Rally Islas Canarias".

https://automovilismocanario.com/2023/09/12/aridany-romero-el-promotor-del-wrc-quiere-venir-a-gran-canaria-para-que-se-corra-el-rally-islas-canarias/


The new sports councillor of the Goverment of Gran Canaria, Aridany Romero, explained in the programme "Ser Deportivos", when asked about the situation of the Rally Islas Canarias, that "the budget is important and we are talking" so that it can be valid for the World Rally Championship.

"We are convinced that we can have the WRC in Gran Canaria, but we have to meet with all the institutions because the budget is important, more than double the cost of the European Rally Championship - we are talking about an amount that exceeds the option of having "La Vuelta Ciclista a España" in the Canary Islands in 2026," he said.

Despite this, "The Goverment of Gran Canaria cannot assume it in its entirety and that is why we are talking to the other institutions, because otherwise it would be unfeasible".

He acknowledged that "negotiations with the WRC promoter are at an advanced stage and one of the options to reduce costs is that instead of having the WRC for just one season, it would be two in a row. The important thing is that the WRC promoter wants to come to Gran Canaria to run the Rally Islas Canarias for its fans, its roads ... Canarias is at the level of the best and we do not have to feel less than anyone. The fact that all the goodness of our rally is recognised gives us an enormous pride."

[AndyRAC]

No thanks - it belongs in the ERC. Rallye Catalunya should be the Spanish WRC round.....

[Eli]

Michelin expected to submit WRC tyre tender bid

Michelin will submit a bid to become the World Rally Championship's control tyre supplier from 2025-2027, Motorsport.com understands.

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/michelin-expected-to-submit-wrc-tyre-tender-bid/10519296/

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/michelin-linked-to-wrc-return/

The decision will be revealed on the 19th of October meeting of the World Motor Sport Council.

[106 sport]

No thanks - it belongs in the ERC. Rallye Catalunya should be the Spanish WRC round.....

Why, because you said so?

Canary Islands, and specifically Gran Canaria, has the best rally fans in Spain, and has even won awards for it.

For many years the island of Gran Canaria has deserved to host a WRC rally. Now is the time.

The organizers have proven to be able to host a ERC rally for many years ago.

[TypeR]

Pirelli out of WRC from 2025.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/wrc-tyre-supplier-to-change-for-2025-pirelli-elects-not-to-bid/10520900/

[Tauri_J]

Ogier full season confirmed lol

[Eli]

Maybe MRF will be there instead or do you guys think Michelin will be back in 2025?

[htr]

Ogier full season confirmed lol

where is the info?

[macebig]

Wait for MRF to win.

[er88]

where is the info? He means Michelin coming back will entice Ogier to return for a full season :)

[TypeR]

Hybrid systems stay put till the end of 2026.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrcs-hybrid-future-secured-with-new-deal/

[Eli]

Hybrid systems stay put till the end of 2026.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrcs-hybrid-future-secured-with-new-deal/

And it seems the current homologation regulation for the cars will stay put to until 2027.

[fiscorpun]

So Pirelli didnt liked being told they are shit? hehe
I know tire war dont belong in "WORLD" championships anymore but that was always something really fun to have in motorsport. Its more things to talk about, u'know? ERC is still my favorite so far. Rally2, Tire War, a good calendar, tons of entries!

[EstWRC]

Pirelli explains decision to leave WRC as tyre supplier
Pirelli has shed more light on its decision to leave the World Rally Championship as control tyre supplier at the end of the 2024 campaign.

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/pirelli-explains-decision-to-leave-wrc-as-tyre-supplier/10522059/

[er88]

Been a pretty horrid time for Pirelli I'd say. The state of punctures was too much at points. I wonder if they knew they wouldn't win the tender anyway, with Michelin in the bidding to return?

[dimviii]

Been a pretty horrid time for Pirelli I'd say. The state of punctures was too much at points. I wonder if they knew they wouldn't win the tender anyway, with Michelin in the bidding to return?

last decades its the same game.Some years pirelli,some years michelin.
if you allow both the game is expensive.
And imho i dont like to have another unknown reason(tyres) to see if the yaris is faster from i20 due to tyres or driver or the car.

[Andre Oliveira]

So let’s make one car model cup.

[dimviii]

So let’s make one car model cup.

no its not the same.

[becher]

no its not the same.

Couldn't agree more.

[becher]

Hybrid systems stay put till the end of 2026.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrcs-hybrid-future-secured-with-new-deal/

Who would have jumped in to replace CD on such a short notice anyway? Leaving such decisions so late smells of incompetence.

[er88]

Who would have jumped in to replace CD on such a short notice anyway? Leaving such decisions so late smells of incompetence.

I think there were a few talks initially that teams could develop their own hybrid systems, but last I heard of that was around a year ago. Considering the state of the championship, Msports difficulties, the need for teams to run more cars etc, it wouldve been a silly extra expense at this stage.

Plus, no doubt it would've just resulted in an another way for Toyota to gain an advantage on Hyundai and Msport...

[becher]

I think there were a few talks initially that teams could develop their own hybrid systems, but last I heard of that was around a year ago. Considering the state of the championship, Msports difficulties, the need for teams to run more cars etc, it wouldve been a silly extra expense at this stage.

Plus, no doubt it would've just resulted in an another way for Toyota to gain an advantage on Hyundai and Msport...
Agree yes, but the change to manufacturer developed units would've been to late now.

[trykmann]

This news probably confirms there won't be any new manufacturers joining the championship before 2027.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk

[wyler]

This news probably confirms there won't be any new manufacturers joining the championship before 2027.

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not necessarily, due to the subaru-toyota partnership, a subaru car could be some sort of rebranded blue yaris with different aesthetic.

[bomber21]

So, to be honest, noone would notice and no manufacturer would leave or join if hybrid unit was removed… Hybrid is totally useless.

[rp]

So, to be honest, noone would notice and no manufacturer would leave or join if hybrid unit was removed… Hybrid is totally useless.

Maybe, but Evans would have been retired without the Hybrid in Greece.

[wyler]

proposal from Rich Millener:

team to have 2 rally1 + 1 rally2 of a "junior" manu team to score for championship points.

http://www.areacorse.com/milliner-proposta-wrc/

[seb_sh]

proposal from Rich Millener:

team to have 2 rally1 + 1 rally2 of a "junior" manu team to score for championship points.

http://www.areacorse.com/milliner-proposta-wrc/

useless idea

[WRCStan]

useless idea

Just 6 Rally1s, what's Ogier going to do, leave 3/4 drivers going for the championship?

To be fair there isn't much detail there but doesn't sound sensible at all.

[wyler]

Just 6 Rally1s, what's Ogier going to do, leave 3/4 drivers going for the championship?

To be fair there isn't much detail there but doesn't sound sensible at all.

i think you misread... it will not affect team size. why only 6 rally1? a team can have 3 or 4 like now, and get points from the top 2, exactly like now. point is adding a junior team with as many car as you please, and top car get points for manus championship. it's a good idea to have youngsters in works team, and get attention on support championships.

[wyler]

useless idea

care to debate?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

i think you misread... it will not affect team size. why only 6 rally1? a team can have 3 or 4 like now, and get points from the top 2, exactly like now. point is adding a junior team with as many car as you please, and top car get points for manus championship. it's a good idea to have youngsters in works team, and get attention on support championships.

What would happen with Skoda / Toksport in this scenario and to the kudos of WRC2 ?

[wyler]

What would happen with Skoda / Toksport in this scenario and to the kudos of WRC2 ?

they'll remain the same. skoda will compete for rally2, i guess. just an "official" rally2 car of wrc teams will get point for manu's championship.
basically, m-sport and hiunday will stay the same in wrc2, toyota will add a couple of works rally2 yaris. it's just a more structured "junior ladder" and a little benefit in points to teams that develop drivers as m-sport. and a couple of more "interesting" seats.

downside: any new manufacturer or wrc team will have to develop 2 cars to enter wrc.

[Mirek]

downside: any new manufacturer or wrc team will have to develop 2 cars to enter wrc.

I don't try to say that I know how many new manufacturers would be attracted by such rules but I dare to guess it's less than one. Has the time already come for the series to commit seppuku or do I miss something?

[Duvel]

Sounds like a good idea to me to. Especially the extra attention for wrc2 would be good!

[seb_sh]

care to debate?

i'll expand:

1. This looks like a solution looking for a problem. All teams are already supporting at least one WRC2 driver in order to showcase their car and as a young driver scheme. Toyota is late to the party but I'm sure they'll catch up soon. I don't see what will improve in this respect with such a rule coming in as the thing is already happening.
2. Promoting or hurting young talent? Let's imagine we're one of the team principals, if this rule comes in you'll want a driver that's fast and experienced to score as many points for you as possible so you'll probably go with a proven hand than some hotshot youngster who'll be fast but roll 3 times a rally. I realise some may think different but if you're serious about running your team you'll think how to maximise points.
3. Result transparency. I follow a lot of motorsport, watch most WRC rallies live, F1, WEC, MotoGP and then many other series as I catch them or highlights. I can appreciate there are different ways to score points that work and most make sense for their respective championship to some degree at least. I honestly tell you that this rule would piss me off trying to figure out who gets how many points every rally. Firstly by having only 2 Rally1 cars score increases the chances that the cars that can score points are lower down so you have to keep track of who's nominated that particular rally. Then you need to keep in mind who's nominated in Rally2 and as if there are already not enough subcategories and shananigans with drivers doing all rounds and scoring only 6 best out of nominated 7 out of a total of 13. But maybe you say, just wait and the TV graphics will show it. So I'm now supposed to ignore it and get some number which seems inconsistent and meaningless unless I make a spreadsheet to see who actually got points? no thanks

to conclude, I see no actual advantages compared to the current situation but plenty of complication. In fact to me it smells like Millener trying to adapt the WRC to MSport as they would like to run only 2 cars on most rallies. Sorry but that's not the way forward.

[Mirek]

The first and foremost important thing to solve for the WRC is to attract some new manufacturers (or private teams if they finally change the homologation rules). Everything else is buying a new suit to a dying man. This proposal is not a solution to THE problem but exactly the opposite. No team will develop two cars in different classes in the same time. That's superexpensive receip for disaster and every sane manager will simply avoid that.

[wyler]

1. if it's already happening, there's no problem in doing it, so not many downsides... on the positives: it will improve the coverage of rally2 car, the interest on rally2 drivers and cars, and hopefully help m-sport to reduce the gap in point scoring from big manus, as good rally2 drivers are easier to hire and rally2 car are quite balanced in performance.

2. i guess a good rally2 team can be made of 2 car, 1 experienced and 1 young gun. the best one scores, so it's logical to have a reliable point scorer but also grow your new generation for rally1. it's possible that someone could bet more on one side than others, of course... that's without knowing if the rally2 team is open or has some "junior" features, i guess this could be explored in developing the rules.

3. what? i'm confused... it's the same as now! we currently have 2 rally1 scoring for teams...nothing will change. you can enter how many cars you wish, best 2 will score. that will remain the same. only this will apply to rally2 too. teams can enter how many car they want, best result for manus entered car will add points for the championship. Looks quite simple to me.

[wyler]

The first and foremost important thing to solve for the WRC is to attract some new manufacturers (or private teams if they finally change the homologation rules). Everything else is buying a new suit to a dying man. This proposal is not a solution to THE problem but exactly the opposite. No team will develop two cars in different classes in the same time. That's superexpensive receip for disaster and every sane manager will simply avoid that.

agreed. but reality is there's no chance to see new brands at least until new regulations*, so thinking to improve what we have now is not so bad.
then if brands attractive new reg comes out for 2027 on, this rally2 rule will be outdated. we've seen rally2 regs change every other year from wrc2-pro-open-junior-master so don't see it as a problem to try a couple of seasons.

*if subaru is entering any sooner will be some kind of toyota platform car. could be easily done for rally2 also. (i'm highly sceptical about this happening, just to be clear!)

[seb_sh]

1. if it's already happening, there's no problem in doing it, so not many downsides... on the positives: it will improve the coverage of rally2 car, the interest on rally2 drivers and cars, and hopefully help m-sport to reduce the gap in point scoring from big manus, as good rally2 drivers are easier to hire and rally2 car are quite balanced in performance.

2. i guess a good rally2 team can be made of 2 car, 1 experienced and 1 young gun. the best one scores, so it's logical to have a reliable point scorer but also grow your new generation for rally1. it's possible that someone could bet more on one side than others, of course... that's without knowing if the rally2 team is open or has some "junior" features, i guess this could be explored in developing the rules.

3. what? i'm confused... it's the same as now! we currently have 2 rally1 scoring for teams...nothing will change. you can enter how many cars you wish, best 2 will score. that will remain the same. only this will apply to rally2 too. teams can enter how many car they want, best result for manus entered car will add points for the championship. Looks quite simple to me.

will it really improve the coverage of WRC2? how? They will mention at the end of the rally: "X manufacturer also gets Y points from Z finishing 5th in WRC2 but getting top points for manu because he was the highest placed nominated driver behind 4 Skodas".

For point 3 I took it as reducing the number of nominated cars in Rally1 from 3 to 2 that might have been my misinterpretation, the source is vague. The point that there is a further complication to follow in WRC2 stands. Actually the most important point to mention is what Mirek said, that there shouldn't be an extra hurdle in place for a new manu joining. You say since most of the things are already happening then why not introduce it, I say exactly that there is no point, it's just a gimmick.

[wyler]

will it really improve the coverage of WRC2? how? They will mention at the end of the rally: "X manufacturer also gets Y points from Z finishing 5th in WRC2 but getting top points for manu because he was the highest placed nominated driver behind 4 Skodas".

For point 3 I took it as reducing the number of nominated cars in Rally1 from 3 to 2 that might have been my misinterpretation, the source is vague. The point that there is a further complication to follow in WRC2 stands. Actually the most important point to mention is what Mirek said, that there shouldn't be an extra hurdle in place for a new manu joining. You say since most of the things are already happening then why not introduce it, I say exactly that there is no point, it's just a gimmick.

i'm sure if a team proposes something like that, it will not propose it without thinking roi and an upgrade in visibility. m-sport is looking to improve its rally2 market and reputation, so i'm pretty positive that if rally2 becomes championship relevant, it will have much more coverage than now, especially on tv. don't think toyota will not push to show its new rally2 yaris live...

on new entry, i've already replied at Mirek. while i agree in general, i don't think waiting for a miraculous new reg in 3-4 years is good, nor realistic. i rather prefer to try something in the meanwhile. this attitude that problems are always "something else" (that can arguably be tackled, btw) is deadly.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

TBH I dont see any big advantage re the visibility of the Rally2 cars from this idea. And sales will be driven by results, not screen time.

Scoring points for the WRC Team wont mean anything if the car is finishing behind the Skoda's, Citroen C3 and even old Polo's...

[seb_sh]

m-sport is looking to improve its rally2 market and reputation

how about make a better car that can be competitive against Skoda and others?

[wyler]

how about make a better car that can be competitive against Skoda and others?

they are, don't they? the upgrade seemed to work good, and from italy on, formeaux showed the car can win wrc2 and compete with others.

[wyler]

TBH I dont see any big advantage re the visibility of the Rally2 cars from this idea. And sales will be driven by results, not screen time.

Scoring points for the WRC Team wont mean anything if the car is finishing behind the Skoda's, Citroen C3 and even old Polo's...

probably, but from italy on the car is quite on the pace with others, and there's not that much possibility to show progress that's not an official team. if customer don't drive the car, the only way is show it with works stickers on...and wrc2 is way easier to manage than erc (they don't have a team there, probably not enough money). fourmeaux in brc -wrc2 is doing good advertising even if it crashes too much.

[WRCStan]

i think you misread... it will not affect team size. why only 6 rally1?

Yes I misread, thanks.

We can look forward to M-Sport nominating customers they don't currently have in Rally1 cars for manufacturer points they aren't currently scoring with crummy Rally1 cars. It sounds a little bit like WRC2 Pro, which was a resounding success.

A Rally2 Manufacturers should work as was back in the day. Any manufacturer who homologates a car gets to score. At second tier level there should not be an issue with that. Except M-Sport, because Ford would get the credit. I don't know.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Not sure if posted before - interview with JM Latvala on the reforms WRC needs ..

https://www.hs.fi/urheilu/art-2000009894292.html

[Jewy46]

2486

Not sure if this has been posted already.
Very interesting if this rumour is true.

Basically the teams (Rally1 & Rally2) have decided that switching to Rally2 cars for the top class is not what they want

https://x.com/AnttiL_WRC/status/1716871180744077805?s=20

[macebig]

Dumb. There is no need for "factory teams". Just do what Fanatec GT does. You can have factory backed teams (i.e. M-Sport themselves, RedGrey/BRC, TMR or else, TokSport, Sainteloc etc) and nominate 2 or drivers from the pool of cars for the Manufacturer's title. Smaller teams will increase their portfolio cause local interest will be boosted if local talent has the potential for a good O/A placing. Maybe it's time for Ben Sulayem to start strong arming WRC's direction. But, it seems like the whole Andretti/FOM thing isn't helping his reputation in Motorsport a lot(or his stature as the President of FIA).

[WRCStan]

Basically the teams (Rally1 & Rally2) have decided that switching to Rally2 cars for the top class is not what they want

Lol. It'd be nice if that idea gets put to bed now.

[Kenneth]

But, it seems like the whole Andretti/FOM thing isn't helping his reputation in Motorsport a lot(or his stature as the President of FIA).

I know this is OT but how. If anything it shows him as strong president that is doing the best for the sport, not best for the promoter.

But I hope he will also start to do that in WRC.

[becher]

I know this is OT but how. If anything it shows him as strong president that is doing the best for the sport, not best for the promoter.

But I hope he will also start to do that in WRC.

Fully agree! It's just FOM shortsighted greed that prevents Andretti. But the F1 situation shows that Ben Sulayem can't magically decide and improve things on his own, be it in F1 or rallying.

[trykmann]

As much as 80% of the current Rally1 car will remain unchanged when the World Rally Championship introduces new technical regulations for 2027, according to the FIA.

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/fia-80-of-wrc-rally1-car-to-carry-over-for-2027-regulations/10546298/

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[Mirek]

IMHO the technically easiest solution for a new WRC car, which could be atrractive for the current and new manufacturers, is an EV with CE working as a generator. That concept is known for more than 120 years, it works in many applications and was even used by Audi in Dakar. IMHO with well thought-out rules such cars are much easier and likely cheaper to build than the current ones. You have no gearbox, no super duper racing engine and you don't need large heavy batteries either. On top of that you have an easy way to control torque distribution even without using differentials.

Yes, it's something new and it won't sound like today's car but WRC needs something new. It badly needs something new.

[Sulland]

IMHO the technically easiest solution for a new WRC car, which could be atrractive for the current and new manufacturers, is an EV with CE working as a generator. That concept is known for more than 120 years, it works in many applications and was even used by Audi in Dakar. IMHO with well thought-out rules such cars are much easier and likely cheaper to build than the current ones. You have no gearbox, no super duper racing engine and you don't need large heavy batteries either. On top of that you have an easy way to control torque distribution even without using differentials.

Yes, it's something new and it won't sound like today's car but WRC needs something new. It badly needs something new.

So in princip the same concept as this one
https://www.google.com/search?q=opel+ampera&rlz=1C9BKJA_enNO982NO982&oq=opel+ampera&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORiABDIHCAEQABiABDIHCA IQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQ ABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIHCAkQABiABNIBCDYzNT NqMGo0qAIAsAIA&hl=nb&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#vhid=rTobKy0tq-gx1M&vssid=3981:dBLjnxEpRYTCIM&ip=1

[Mirek]

So in princip the same concept as this one
https://www.google.com/search?q=opel+ampera&rlz=1C9BKJA_enNO982NO982&oq=opel+ampera&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORiABDIHCAEQABiABDIHCA IQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQ ABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIHCAkQABiABNIBCDYzNT NqMGo0qAIAsAIA&hl=nb&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#vhid=rTobKy0tq-gx1M&vssid=3981:dBLjnxEpRYTCIM&ip=1

Basically the same concept as the first ever Ferdinand Porsche's car in 1898... and same as every diesel-electric train.

PS I didn't read your link because the google search appears to me in Norwegian.

[becher]

Yes like the Opel Ampera.
While it's a feasible way to get "electric vehicles" competitive in rallying, a serial Hybrid is technically a very bad solution in general. If the people/politics/media would be able to understand what they are lobbying for they'd be very upset that "their' BEV Dakar Audi is just a very inefficient Hybrid with a "evil" ICE.

[Mirek]

Yes like the Opel Ampera.
While it's a feasible way to get "electric vehicles" competitive in rallying, a serial Hybrid is technically a very bad solution in general. If the people/politics/media would be able to understand what they are lobbying for they'd be very upset that "their' BEV Dakar Audi is just a very inefficient Hybrid with a "evil" ICE.

The big heavy E-Tron had an average fuel consumption in the far worse terrain about 40 litres/100 km. That is definitely less than the current WRC cars. I fail to see why it is worse.

[becher]

The big heavy E-Tron had an average fuel consumption in the far worse terrain about 40 litres/100 km. That is definitely less than the current WRC cars. I fail to see why it is worse.
Hm might be different in competition but for road cars it was less efficient than a comparable parallel hybrid, an Ampera in normal running was said to use between 7 and 9 liters per 100 km for example.

Presumably the fuel consumption of the Audi was with a pre charged battery?

Do you happen to know the approximate fuel consumption of a T1+ Toyota/BRX/...?

[trykmann]

Hm might be different in competition but for road cars it was less efficient than a comparable parallel hybrid, an Ampera in normal running was said to use between 7 and 9 liters per 100 km for example.

Presumably the fuel consumption of the Audi was with a pre charged battery?

Do you happen to know the approximate fuel consumption of a T1+ Toyota/BRX/...?Nissan is using similar technology on the new X-trail. There might be a future with this technology, when the engine runs on biofuel.

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[Mirek]

Hm might be different in competition but for road cars it was less efficient than a comparable parallel hybrid, an Ampera in normal running was said to use between 7 and 9 liters per 100 km for example.

Sorry, that's completely different use case.


Presumably the fuel consumption of the Audi was with a pre charged battery?

Yes, I think so, but 50 kWh battery doesn't change much on the 700 km of range. I guess it can power the car for about 15 minutes.


Do you happen to know the approximate fuel consumption of a T1+ Toyota/BRX/...?

The E-Tron has 295 litres of fuel, Toyota T1 540 litres. Both run the same stage distance so I guess the fuel consumption even without the battery is at least 30% higher. I guess the main difference is that the electric motors don't burn loads of fuel in anti-lag.

[becher]

Sorry, that's completely different use case.





Yes, I think so, but 50 kWh battery doesn't change much on the 700 km of range. I guess it can power the car for about 15 minutes.



The E-Tron has 295 litres of fuel, Toyota T1 540 litres. Both run the same stage distance so I guess the fuel consumption even without the battery is at least 30% higher. I guess the main difference is that the electric motors don't burn loads of fuel in anti-lag.


Well if we assume round about 30% more, those numbers could be achieved with a parallel hybrid solution as well no? Anti lag wouldn't be needed either if done right.

[Mirek]

Well if we assume round about 30% more, those numbers could be achieved with a parallel hybrid solution as well no? Anti lag wouldn't be needed either if done right.

Why parallel hybrid? It's much more technically complicated and definitely more expensive solution.

In a parallel hybrid you need everything, what pure CE car has, like gearbox, clutch, differentials, propshaft, rear-axle release clutch, race-tune engine and on top of that you add electric motor and battery. When you use EV with CE generator and at least two motors you can skip most of that CE stuff, at least the gearbox, both clutches, propshaft and transmission hydraulics. On top of that you get active torque distribution between the axes which current WRC cars don't even have.

Just look what the parallel hybrid system brings to the current cars. It is very expensive but when it doesn't work the change in stage times is minimal and there is basically no fuel saving either, so what is it good for except for the word HYBRID on the banners?

[becher]

Why parallel hybrid? It's much more technically complicated and definitely more expensive solution.

In a parallel hybrid you need everything, what pure CE car has, like gearbox, clutch, differentials, propshaft, rear-axle release clutch, race-tune engine and on top of that you add electric motor and battery. When you use EV with CE generator and at least two motors you can skip most of that CE stuff, at least the gearbox, both clutches, propshaft and transmission hydraulics. On top of that you get active torque distribution between the axes which current WRC cars don't even have.

Just look what the parallel hybrid system brings to the current cars. It is very expensive but when it doesn't work the change in stage times is minimal and there is basically no fuel saving either, so what is it good for except for the word HYBRID on the banners?

Because a parallel hybrid works well in other racing applications.

The current spec system is hardly representative of what could be done with a parallel hybrid. It's as you said just a ad on like the WAE system in LMDh cars, but those cars are far from the be all and end all of what can be achieved.

[Mirek]

Because a parallel hybrid works well in other racing applications.

The current spec system is hardly representative of what could be done with a parallel hybrid. It's as you said just a ad on like the WAE system in LMDh cars, but those cars are far from the be all and end all of what can be achieved.

You can't compare circuits with rallying. On circuits you have ideal conditions. You have very high level of recuperation and you don't need any spare energy because the energy consumption can be precisely calculated for the event. You can never achieve circuit recuperation levels in rallying. You always need much greater energy carried by the car because you have long road sections and much more variable total number of consummed energy per section. You also can't use that heavy batteries beause the cars themselves are in principle heavier. If you put Formula-E battery into the WRC car you get a car which is definitely slower than current WRC cars and quite likely also slower than Rally2. You simply can not built the rest of the car within 500 kg like you can do on circuit. See the E-tron which has 2 tons with what is basically a Formula-E battery.

Anyway my point stays. I fail to see why pushing for more compicated and more expensive option?

[AMSS]

According to Autohebdo Hankook is selected as WRC tire supplier.

[TWRC]

According to Autohebdo Hankook is selected as WRC tire supplier.

That is going to be interesting and exciting if true!

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.autohebdo.fr/actualites/rallye/wrc/hankook-tient-la-corde-pour-fournir-les-pneus-du-wrc.html

[becher]

https://www.autohebdo.fr/actualites/rallye/wrc/hankook-tient-la-corde-pour-fournir-les-pneus-du-wrc.html

Seems confirmed now:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hankook-to-become-wrc-tire-supplier-from-2025/?fbclid=IwAR2nF_wpIl7r92Se6I3XKPsPs1jAgmne73jDyV6t XOeoM3DclNrrl4kroFg

[EstWRC]

Nice. Something new

[Eli]

Nice. Something new

Now all we need is Skoda/Opel/Someone please to announce they'll be joining the championship as soon as 2025!

[RS]

Now all we need is Skoda/Opel/Someone please to announce they'll be joining the championship as soon as 2025!

If Skoda come back to the top level it won't be as soon as that. Testing of the new Rally2 car started well over one year before it's debut and that was a category they had experience of.

[Eli]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/answering-the-presidents-call/

Something something, had to scrap rally2 idea as top tier, long story short, rally 1 until 2027.

[wyler]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/answering-the-presidents-call/

Something something, had to scrap rally2 idea as top tier, long story short, rally 1 until 2027.

manus said that already months ago...

[macebig]

Do Rally 1s really have until 2027? Think about that for a minute. Nobody is joining and it's doubtful all 3 manus keep going till then. Guess FIA is just waiting for someone to force their hand into scrapping Rally 1s.

[Mirek]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/answering-the-presidents-call/

Something something, had to scrap rally2 idea as top tier, long story short, rally 1 until 2027.


“I could see,” governing body FIA president MBS told DirtFish, “I could see something had to be done. Of course I could. And it had to be done quickly. I told David [Richards] I wanted immediate action. I told him to go and select a team for a working group and come back to me with names in two hours. He did that.

“Then we said we wanted answers in two weeks, we got them in days. This is how quickly we can move things. This is what we have to do."

I do translate that as "We had years but we didn't bother to work out anything and now we try to play heroes coming to save the show."

[wyler]

Do Rally 1s really have until 2027? Think about that for a minute. Nobody is joining and it's doubtful all 3 manus keep going till then. Guess FIA is just waiting for someone to force their hand into scrapping Rally 1s.

Maybe Fia wants it, but actually is the opposite. manufactures firmly refused to make rally2 top class, Hyundai and Ford decided to stay only with this reg.

[Kenneth]

The current regs are something that all 3 current manus agreed to. FIA makes the mistake of trying to keep the current manus instead of opening doors to new ones. It's clear that Hyundai and Toyota are happy with the lack of competition.

[rp]

FIA´s mistake that they ask what current manufacturers want. Now it is clear that Rally1 will continue until 2027, but FIA has to change the rules radically for the season 2028.

[trykmann]

Dirtfish has used a bit misleading headline for this. Kalle actually approves the idea about more powerful Rally2 cars.

The Rally2 on steroids would still be enjoyable to watch.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/rovanpera-dismisses-rally2-switch/

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[HKSjbg]

Dirtfish has used a bit misleading headline for this. Kalle actually approves the idea about more powerful Rally2 cars.

The Rally2 on steroids would still be enjoyable to watch.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/rovanpera-dismisses-rally2-switch/

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I would say its also misleading to say ‘Rovanpera actually approves of more powerful Rally2’

The article reads like the question of Rally2 as the top class was put to him and he said no, they would need more power to be exciting enough to watch. I bet if he was specifically asked should Rally2+ replace Rally1 he’d still say no.

[WRCStan]

I bet if he was specifically asked should Rally2+ replace Rally1 he’d still say no.

That was in his answer.


But, if we really wanted to go [with them as the top class in WRC] we...

[Mirek]

The article reads like the question of Rally2 as the top class was put to him and he said no, they would need more power to be exciting enough to watch. I bet if he was specifically asked should Rally2+ replace Rally1 he’d still say no.

More powerful Rally2 will be less reliable -> redesign -> more cost -> two different classes again or more expensive Rally2

Anyway the CE Rally2 are absolutely fine for private teams but useless for the manufacturers because they bring very low marketing value for what they need to promote the most because it costs them hell lot of money and does't sell easily (hybrids and EV).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

All this talk about what should be the future top class cars in WRC all stems from the change to the "WRC+" cars in 2017. This then lead on to the Rally1 hybrids from 2022.

In hindsight, both seem to have been a mistake. Very spectacular looking and super-fast, but too expensive and complicated for new manufacturers and private drivers.

The talk of WRC2+ cars for the future makes me think of the 2011-16 WRC cars. These were really all that was needed with enough power, tech and aero to be exciting but also more affordable.

Was there really anything wrong with this sort of action...

https://youtu.be/Q42jT7AsNFE?si=XKxUAeZmPnRhVOlq

[WRCStan]

All this talk about what should be the future top class cars in WRC all stems from the change to the "WRC+" cars in 2017. This then lead on to the Rally1 hybrids from 2022.

In hindsight, both seem to have been a mistake. Very spectacular looking and super-fast, but too expensive and complicated for new manufacturers and private drivers.

The talk of WRC2+ cars for the future makes me think of the 2011-16 WRC cars. These were really all that was needed with enough power, tech and aero to be exciting but also more affordable.

Was there really anything wrong with this sort of action...

https://youtu.be/Q42jT7AsNFE?si=XKxUAeZmPnRhVOlq

Looks good to me but 2016 were much improved on 2011.

Coincidentally you picked highlights of the rally where the winning and third place cars were not entered into the manufacturers.

Looking at same rally entry list you have a lot of privateer RC1 entries without manufacturer support.

Depends on your position if there is a problem or not. I think the rulemakers/promoter saw a problem, amongst other important new things now.

[Mirek]

All this talk about what should be the future top class cars in WRC all stems from the change to the "WRC+" cars in 2017. This then lead on to the Rally1 hybrids from 2022.

In hindsight, both seem to have been a mistake. Very spectacular looking and super-fast, but too expensive and complicated for new manufacturers and private drivers.

The talk of WRC2+ cars for the future makes me think of the 2011-16 WRC cars. These were really all that was needed with enough power, tech and aero to be exciting but also more affordable.

Was there really anything wrong with this sort of action...

https://youtu.be/Q42jT7AsNFE?si=XKxUAeZmPnRhVOlq

Eddie, you can't judge from your fan's point of view. It's not the decisive one. The world is different than in 2011 and what worked for the manufacturers in that time makes no sense for them now.

[wyler]

how's a price comparison between wrc, wrc'17 and rally1?
is it really that much?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Eddie, you can't judge from your fan's point of view. It's not the decisive one. The world is different than in 2011 and what worked for the manufacturers in that time makes no sense for them now.

Which Manufacturers ? No new ones have joined the top level for a decade. WRC+ cars saw Citroen pull out, and Rally1 only seems to make sense for two (and a half) makers. And Toyota and Hyundai dont even promote the hybrid element with the word hybrid on their cars.

[Mirek]

Which Manufacturers ? No new ones have joined the top level for a decade. WRC+ cars saw Citroen pull out, and Rally1 only seems to make sense for two (and a half) makers. And Toyota and Hyundai dont even promote the hybrid element with the word hybrid on their cars.

No manufacturer wants 2011 WRC cars, not even the two currently involved. The promoter doesn't want it and FIA also doesn't want it.

Anyway the target of any change in the tech regs MUST be attracting new manufacturers. Everything else is simply wrong in the current situation.

[macebig]

WRC needs to open back the doors to privateer firms. Prodrive has the capability to produce a WRC level car. Help them do it. Oreca can too. Holzer created a Corsa R5. Melvyn Evans did the Proton and the Mitsubishi Mirage. That's 5-6 cars that can definitely work on WRC level with reasonable budget and minimum manufacturer expenses. Even Richards says in the video with Howard Davies posted here that R1s are going nowhere and R2s are the best solution for now. Ben Sulayem should probably stop fiddling around with Liberty and F1 teams and focus on fixing WRC.

[WRCStan]

WRC needs to open back the doors to privateer firms.

Unless there is manufacturer support, this has never been the past.

[WRCStan]

Eddie, you can't judge from your fan's point of view. It's not the decisive one. The world is different than in 2011 and what worked for the manufacturers in that time makes no sense for them now.

Same as suggesting Rally2 though.

[Mirek]

WRC needs to open back the doors to privateer firms. Prodrive has the capability to produce a WRC level car. Help them do it. Oreca can too. Holzer created a Corsa R5. Melvyn Evans did the Proton and the Mitsubishi Mirage. That's 5-6 cars that can definitely work on WRC level with reasonable budget and minimum manufacturer expenses. Even Richards says in the video with Howard Davies posted here that R1s are going nowhere and R2s are the best solution for now. Ben Sulayem should probably stop fiddling around with Liberty and F1 teams and focus on fixing WRC.

I agree that the system of homologation is a one of the features which needs to be changed. WRC is the only major motorsport which doesn't allow privately built machines in the top class. Obviously it doesn't work nowadays.

[PLuto]

I agree that the system of homologation is a one of the features which needs to be changed. WRC is the only major motorsport which doesn't allow privately built machines in the top class. Obviously it doesn't work nowadays.

This is one of the things I am saying last 10-15 years. And both attempts to allow privateers (RGT, R4) were killed by FIA...

[Mirek]

This is one of the things I am saying last 10-15 years. And both attempts to allow privateers (RGT, R4) were killed by FIA...

See, we agree with first point of the radical redesign :)

[Kenneth]

I agree that the system of homologation is a one of the features which needs to be changed. WRC is the only major motorsport which doesn't allow privately built machines in the top class. Obviously it doesn't work nowadays.

That's because in every other major motorsports the rules are usually made by some other government body/organization than FIA. In Le Mans/WEC it's ACO and IMSA, in Dakar/W2RC it's ASO, in F1 it's FOM. These don't really care about manufacturers (it's ofc more complicated in F1, but they still allow privateers).

In rally it's all about FIA without any other outside force. All they care about is the manufacturer's money. I don't know how much do current manufacturers pay for homologations and stuff, but I guess that if they allow privateers at any level, they could get same or even more money by them from homologation fees. Don't forget that there are only 6 manufacturers now that currently make rally cars - Ford, Toyota, Hyundai, Skoda, Renault and Stellantis. Even if some of the would leave, average fan wouldn't notice as someone would for sure make a car based on these.

But imo to make it work, there have to be more freedom in technical aspect. Both Dakar and Le Mans are pretty free yet cheap.

[Mirek]

But imo to make it work, there have to be more freedom in technical aspect. Both Dakar and Le Mans are pretty free yet cheap.

Actually the most important step for allowing private cars was already done - allowing use of the spaceframe. IMHO it was a lost opportunity not connecting it with allowing privately built cars.

[Kenneth]

Actually the most important step for allowing private cars was already done - allowing use of the spaceframe. IMHO it was a lost opportunity not connecting it with allowing privately built cars.

Yes definitely. But they would need to allow production-based engines. Maybe that would even bring some more manufacturers.

[RS]

Since Rally1 cars are not based on actual road cars I can't see why they wouldn't allow private cars now. But not sure it would be viable. It works in F1 because there is constructors prize money and it is commercially succesful enough to attract large sponsorship income.

Even with some support from Ford and Red Bull, M-Sport have struggled.

[JRodrigues]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ_KrIlY8eE

5m30: David Richards saying they should've flooded the market with R2's and gone that route

[WRCStan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ_KrIlY8eE

5m30: David Richards saying they should've flooded the market with R2's and gone that route

What is he saying? Prodrive, Motorsport UK, FIA don't produce Rally2 cars, so who is going to flood the market?

I really don't understand that if ~10 Rally1 cars were Rally2s then the BRC would be healthy.

[Kenneth]

I'm pretty sure Prodrive would be easily able to produce Rally2 if FIA allow that.

Would be nice if they would made Renault Rally2 now when they are Renault's factory team in Dakar. But I doubt that.

[wwbroe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ_KrIlY8eE

5m30: David Richards saying they should've flooded the market with R2's and gone that route

That is really a great video about history of Prodrive

[Mirek]

I'm pretty sure Prodrive would be easily able to produce Rally2 if FIA allow that.

Would be nice if they would made Renault Rally2 now when they are Renault's factory team in Dakar. But I doubt that.

Funny thing is that the manufacturers themselves are allowed to use components from other manufacturers in Rally2 design (if I remember).

[WRCStan]

Funny thing is that the manufacturers themselves are allowed to use components from other manufacturers in Rally2 design (if I remember).

That's pretty normal for cars in general.

[WRCStan]

I'm pretty sure Prodrive would be easily able to produce Rally2 if FIA allow that.

Would be nice if they would made Renault Rally2 now when they are Renault's factory team in Dakar. But I doubt that.

Pretty moot really unless Renault want to enter WRC and they've got their own house for that. Prodrive WRT wouldn't be entering either.

[Mirek]

That's pretty normal for cars in general.

I meant that they use parts originating from cars of other manufacturers. Yes, they are third party parts but still.

[PLuto]

Problem is that manufacturers doesn want that somebody use and promote their cars (mainly bodyshells) without their approval...

[the sniper]

Shame they couldn't make more of the Mini relationship, if they'd played their cards right they could have made more than a decade of R5/Rally 2 Mini Coopers, a three door hatch that changes relatively little from generation to generation. Would have been a decent business for Prodrive...

[Steve Boyd]

Shame they couldn't make more of the Mini relationship, if they'd played their cards right they could have made more than a decade of R5/Rally 2 Mini Coopers, a three door hatch that changes relatively little from generation to generation. Would have been a decent business for Prodrive...
The problem is that BMW don't see rallying as part of their heritage, despite what the M3 achieved. Racing they are OK with, but rallying isn't how they see themselves.