2022 WRC News & Rumours [Archive] - Page 4

doubled1978

1st July 2022, 18:43

I read that as that's the most they think they'd ever get. Four is fine if we see 3-4 cars per manufacturer, and plenty of privateers; meaning we see 15-20 Rally 1 cars. As he says, six or seven can become unsustainable as they can't all win - and some end up pulling out. We saw that in the early/mid 00's.

I'm wondering how long the WEC manages to keep all their new manufacturers in the next few years.

They (WEC) have BOP and fixed development to prevent a spending war which should equalise the cars (or manipulate who wins) so each of the teams should get a fair crack of the whip and their moment to shine. I’m sure they are very conscious that they will need all the teams to ‘succeed’ at some point to keep them all.
I’m a fan of endurance racing so I’m keen to see how this all pans out over the next few years.

WRCStan

1st July 2022, 19:19

They (WEC) have BOP

What's BOP please?

Eli

1st July 2022, 19:25

What's BOP please?

Balance of Performance if I’m not mistaken.

lmmjvss

1st July 2022, 19:49

https://dirtfish.com/rally/why-the-fia-believes-3-4-manufacturers-is-enough/

FIA as in FIA rally director Andrew Wheatley thinks 4 is the sweet spot, thing is, for now we aren't seeing any interest from any other manufacturers to join the fray.

I think I changed my mind about this after talking on this forum. I think 3 is just fine.
What I Really want to see is more privateers or costumer teams having the $$ to run Rally1 Cars (since all this new concept was to make it cheaper. Or was it a lie? haha).
Im Not sure toyota and hyundai are on the "Hey, heres lots of rally1 cars! Rent them!", but I really wish they were, like Msport. Loved to see Serderidis trying it out and scoring points!

lmmjvss

1st July 2022, 19:55

I'm wondering how long the WEC manages to keep all their new manufacturers in the next few years.

I feel that theres always something about "To sell LMP1 (lmh? lmdh? gtp? hyoercar? what is the name??) cars to other teams" (costumer programs?) in most of the articles about the new manufacturers joining WEC/IMSA So Im imagining WEC/IMSA will not have huge problems on that. Like TCR racing, where the cars are all out for the teams to run by their own. I mean, I HOPE this new LMP1 class is being build on this idea. It feels like this. These TCR / Rally2 / GT3 platforms are a huge success that could really be "copied" in LMP1

Eli

1st July 2022, 20:21

I feel 4 cars from 4 different manufactures running 3 cars each is the sweet spot, ever since Citroën left the sport at the end of 2019, to me at least it feels lacking because you have Hyundai & Toyota fighting it out & M-Sport lagging behind, in 2019 we had a championship front runner in pretty much each team so even Citroën with their not so competitive car had Ogier to fight the title for, Toyota had Tänak & Hyundai Neuville. Now you have Neuville & Tänak in one team & Rovanperä & Evans in the other, would be way more interesting imho if they were separated and also that way the team would be more evenly matched and we wouldn't get that dominance from Toyota, because as reliable as there car may be, you still need drivers to win in it.

cali

2nd July 2022, 06:29

The problem is not the lack of manu teams but the lack of privateers. And that's purely a cost issue

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mknight

2nd July 2022, 06:40

Yes, the key is that all should be somewhat competitive. If a manufacturer is not competitive, it will just leave. Another reason why it's bad for the championship that Toyota is so dominant.
I don't think we'll ever see the 7 manufacturers from the early 2000's (even though Skoda, Hyundai and Mitsubishi WRC would see the podium through binoculars) until something drastic will change in a more or less far future, like a switch to electric.

Yes, to get even 4 manus now, something needs to drastically change.
At the moment I see only two possible options
:
- EV switch
Or
- Rally2/"privateer" switch (AKA 1980s Group A switch)

Maybe somebody sees other options?

Historically since WRC intro at the end of 1990s WRC has been slow and conservative with changes though, so don't expect much.
(Rally1 hybrid is a necessary incremental change that should have happened 3 years ago, certainly nothing drastic)

AndyRAC

2nd July 2022, 09:20

I remember when Subaru & Suzuki pulled the plug in December 2008 - and we were left with Citroen & M-Sport Ford. The FiA President was more concerned about the recent withdrawal of Honda from F1 and sorting that out. One hopes the current incumbent, Ben Sulayem can bang heads together and sort something.

Currently, very few manufacturers are interested in being in the WRC; costs are still too high, and the value simply isn't there.......Cut costs and increase value. Easy to say, but harder to do.

Sergiow

2nd July 2022, 09:59

Currently, very few manufacturers are interested in being in the WRC; costs are still too high, and the value simply isn't there.......Cut costs and increase value. Easy to say, but harder to do.

Please specify "manufacturers".
My take is: can all the current Rally1 manufactures considered as a true manu? Without a doubt M-Sport is not, it only has manu backing from Sport but at the same time M-Sport is a huge contributor to the business model of WRC by providing cars for other classes apart from Rally1. Probably Toyota Gazoo WRC is in the same boat here and could be considered as an apart legal entity affiliated with Toyota Gazoo Europe (or has that changed recently?) but not providing any other cars besides Rally1. Hyundai Motorsport based at Alzenau is besides Rally1/2 cars for WRC also providing racing cars for WTCR, TCR and ETCR, so they have a broad business model

What I am trying to find out here is: what is the aim of the current manufacturers in WRC. Is the for the business model or is it for a broader sense? Could that be an example for other so called manufactures to step in?

AnttiL

2nd July 2022, 10:24

The problem is not the lack of manu teams but the lack of privateers. And that's purely a cost issue

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Privateers to fight for positions 7-10?

Sergiow

2nd July 2022, 10:30

Privateers to fight for positions 7-10?

I think what now matter is this:

“Obviously we had a grip advantage, let’s say, over the top guys but we’ll take a WRC stage win when we can!” These were the words of Josh McErlean last Saturday after claiming his first ever stage win in the World Rally Championship – in a Rally2 car - Rally Portugal 2022.

He’s not the first driver to do it and he likely won’t be the last, but that wasn’t exactly going to cheapen his moment or make it any less special for the rest of us watching. https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc2-drivers-to-have-won-overall-stages/

AnttiL

2nd July 2022, 10:37

That was on a silly superspecial where the weather conditions changed drastically.
Normally Josh McErlean can’t win stages even in WRC2. In contrast, him being so far behind allowed the stage to dry more.

Sergiow

2nd July 2022, 10:53

That was on a silly superspecial where the weather conditions changes drastically.
Normally Josh McErlean can’t win stages even in WRC2. In contrast, him being so far behind allowed the stage to dry more.

This is not only about McErlean, but also about Pontus Tindemand, Jan Kopecký, Jari Huttunen and Umberto Scandola. Or as Luke Barry, the author of the Dirtfish article puts it:
Umberto Scandola / Where: Monza Rally 2020, SS11 Gerosa. Nobody could match Scandola. Rally and championship winner Ogier was the only one within 15s of him. No matter what happens in Scandola’s rallying career in the future, he’ll always have that on his CV.

cali

2nd July 2022, 11:06

Privateers to fight for positions 7-10?I'm sure you know well enough in the 90's and early 00's privateers were better than that. Even in gr B era privateers had more chances than now.

The other thing is we would have more top cars on the starting line with local or up and coming youngsters would have a chance. Remember Jyväskylä in the 90's and compare it to present day.

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AnttiL

2nd July 2022, 11:07

I'm sure you know well enough in the 90's and early 00's privateers were better than that. Even in gr B era privateers had more chances than now.

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That was then, now is different. The sport is more intense and the top guys are on so high level that it’s hard to compete against them.

BTW who privateers in group B era? :D

As for more cars on the start line, the WRC2 is a great place for privateers and the cars are not as unspectacular as Gp N as a support class

WRCStan

2nd July 2022, 12:01

Please specify "manufacturers".

There's not one central 'Toyota' or 'Hyundai' doing everything, it's normal business structure/divisional stuff for a multinational car manufacture to have an arm like Gazoo or HMSG to be the operation, or to get an external contractor to do it. These are in it for the branding/promo.
M-Sport are in motorsport services and (it's my belief) the relationship with Ford is different. M-Sport are the driving force and because they need the manufacturer affiliation to sell Rally1 services, they bring Ford in. Ford will at least cover the entry fees and meet FIA rules about manufacturer affiliations in return for the 'free' promo. Neither would be doing Rally1 without the other.

The problem is not the lack of manu teams but the lack of privateers. And that's purely a cost issue

A reminder of some rules:

*Rally1 cars have to *look like* a series production car
*Only the manufacturer of that car can homologate the Rally1 car
*Only when a manufacturer enters the WRC will the car be approved and be available to 'Teams'

The thing is, FIA rules be talking like it's 1973 still, that there are hundreds of car manufacturers, maybe some are state sponsored, where they do all their own parts and components and assemble everything under one roof. The second thing is, the Rally1 lot are now constructors, not manufacturers. They build purpose-built race cars with purpose-built engines, with a spec hybrid package, but the FIA likes to believe only manufacturers can be constructors, because traditionally manufacturers have brought the budget.

The rally car 'manufacturers' take a windscreen and a couple of other minor parts from the production car, source everything else from a hundred SME engineering companies that are different to the thousand companies that build components used in the road cars and build something to go rallying with. Compare this to the privateer constructor teams filling grids in the roundy-roundy games.

All these rules are by design to keep privateers out, no? Just because you might not like it doesn't mean it's a problem.

AnttiL

2nd July 2022, 12:16

This is not only about McErlean, but also about Pontus Tindemand, Jan Kopecký, Jari Huttunen and Umberto Scandola. Or as Luke Barry, the author of the Dirtfish article puts it:
Umberto Scandola / Where: Monza Rally 2020, SS11 Gerosa. Nobody could match Scandola. Rally and championship winner Ogier was the only one within 15s of him. No matter what happens in Scandola’s rallying career in the future, he’ll always have that on his CV.

No, it’s actually same for all cases. Drastically changing conditions and/or a super special

cali

2nd July 2022, 14:42

That was then, now is different. The sport is more intense and the top guys are on so high level that it’s hard to compete against them.

BTW who privateers in group B era? :D

As for more cars on the start line, the WRC2 is a great place for privateers and the cars are not as unspectacular as Gp N as a support classPlease look for VHS rallies. Plenty of private local entries in gr B (fyi Tabaton etc). Not gonna argue much but it's not any better now.
And the arguement isn't that past is better or the opposite but we are missing competent privateer field which was giving us far more diversity. Today we get 3-4 top guys and sponsored drivers.

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cali

2nd July 2022, 14:43

There's not one central 'Toyota' or 'Hyundai' doing everything, it's normal business structure/divisional stuff for a multinational car manufacture to have an arm like Gazoo or HMSG to be the operation, or to get an external contractor to do it. These are in it for the branding/promo.
M-Sport are in motorsport services and (it's my belief) the relationship with Ford is different. M-Sport are the driving force and because they need the manufacturer affiliation to sell Rally1 services, they bring Ford in. Ford will at least cover the entry fees and meet FIA rules about manufacturer affiliations in return for the 'free' promo. Neither would be doing Rally1 without the other.

A reminder of some rules:

*Rally1 cars have to *look like* a series production car
*Only the manufacturer of that car can homologate the Rally1 car
*Only when a manufacturer enters the WRC will the car be approved and be available to 'Teams'

The thing is, FIA rules be talking like it's 1973 still, that there are hundreds of car manufacturers, maybe some are state sponsored, where they do all their own parts and components and assemble everything under one roof. The second thing is, the Rally1 lot are now constructors, not manufacturers. They build purpose-built race cars with purpose-built engines, with a spec hybrid package, but the FIA likes to believe only manufacturers can be constructors, because traditionally manufacturers have brought the budget.

The rally car 'manufacturers' take a windscreen and a couple of other minor parts from the production car, source everything else from a hundred SME engineering companies that are different to the thousand companies that build components used in the road cars and build something to go rallying with. Compare this to the privateer constructor teams filling grids in the roundy-roundy games.

All these rules are by design to keep privateers out, no? Just because you might not like it doesn't mean it's a problem.Long answer completely derailed from my point but oh please do go on

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WRCStan

2nd July 2022, 15:23

Long answer completely derailed from my point but oh please do go on

Did it derail from your point or just disagree? Can you justify that lack of Rally1 privateers is purely a cost issue?

Having the COSTS delusion seems to be closely tied to the view that privateers should be at Rally1 in the first place. FIA does not share your dream, so why apply this delusion why you aren't seeing your dream?

cali

2nd July 2022, 15:34

Did it derail from your point or just disagree? Can you justify that lack of Rally1 privateers is purely a cost issue?

Having the COSTS delusion seems to be closely tied to the view that privateers should be at Rally1 in the first place. FIA does not share your dream, so why apply this delusion why you aren't seeing your dream?Privateers have been using factory or ex-factory cars for ages and it has diversified the field a lot in the past. Now the cars and most importantly spare parts are so expensive that this isn't really affordable.
Getting from Rally2 car to WRC/Rally1 car has been proven very difficult for most drivers, only exception being Rovanperä. The others who have tried needed more seat time but failed to get it. Why? You guessed it!

And yes, derailed.

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WRCStan

2nd July 2022, 16:08

Getting from Rally2 car to WRC/Rally1 car has been proven very difficult for most drivers, only exception being Rovanperä. The others who have tried needed more seat time but failed to get it. Why? You guessed it!

Because there are only a handful of Cat II competition-build Rally1 cars, that only run on WRC rounds (and not on regional/national champs), by the manufacturers themselves - all by design for being international TV entertainment as promotion.

Not just because people didn't have the budget to get seat time at, for example, Toyota.

WRCStan

2nd July 2022, 16:17

Going back to my derailed post, if an F1 nut could break down the car manufacturer and non-car manufacturer teams and who the paid and pay-for drivers are it would be interesting.

Maybe in a relevant thread too, I don't know which by now.

cali

2nd July 2022, 17:32

Because there are only a handful of Cat II competition-build Rally1 cars, that only run on WRC rounds (and not on regional/national champs), by the manufacturers themselves - all by design for being international TV entertainment as promotion.

Not just because people didn't have the budget to get seat time at, for example, Toyota.You have your right and I disagree with it.
If you think this model is sustainable and overall the way it should be, fine.
For my liking I would like to have more privateers and they're gone. With current situation in hand (too expensive!) this will never be sustainable for privateers.

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WRCStan

2nd July 2022, 19:48

If you think this model is sustainable and overall the way it should be, fine.

I don't think it's the way it should be and FWIW I agree it is too expensive for many privateers.

But I'm not sure you're understanding that the access privateers currently have is coincidental. It appears Hyundai, like Toyota, don't offer drives for sale. If Ford brought rally inhouse, and still even if Citroen, Fiat, Dacia, Tesla... then join in the same fashion, there could be a situation where there's zero seats that any amount of privateer money can buy. And the FIA would not give one shiny shit because WRC is not there to provide a fair sporting opportunity, it is a commercial championship where Rally1 is designed around the promotion of car manufacturers. I'm not sure why you would choose to disagree with that.

cali

2nd July 2022, 20:39

I don't think it's the way it should be and FWIW I agree it is too expensive for many privateers.

But I'm not sure you're understanding that the access privateers currently have is coincidental. It appears Hyundai, like Toyota, don't offer drives for sale. If Ford brought rally inhouse, and still even if Citroen, Fiat, Dacia, Tesla... then join in the same fashion, there could be a situation where there's zero seats that any amount of privateer money can buy. And the FIA would not give one shiny shit because WRC is not there to provide a fair sporting opportunity, it is a commercial championship where Rally1 is designed around the promotion of car manufacturers. I'm not sure why you would choose to disagree with that.For M-Sport it's vital to sell/rent cars. It's affecting them a lot, this current situation.
Not so many 2017 cars are on the stages as well and you guessed it, there's no point to drive these cars on national rallyes. Why? You guessed again!

Btw I agree with your last point - it's too commercial and non-reachable for normal people and it starts with the rules and results of being too expensive.

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AnttiL

2nd July 2022, 21:02

Please look for VHS rallies. Plenty of private local entries in gr B (fyi Tabaton etc). Not gonna argue much but it's not any better now.
And the arguement isn't that past is better or the opposite but we are missing competent privateer field which was giving us far more diversity. Today we get 3-4 top guys and sponsored drivers.

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There might have been some Italian privateers in Sanremo, but not much other competitive ones. And some of them were like semi-factory drivers, just doing a national series.

cali

2nd July 2022, 21:15

There might have been some Italian privateers in Sanremo, but not much other competitive ones. And some of them were like semi-factory drivers, just doing a national series.Well we got Serderidis now :D

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focus206

2nd July 2022, 21:19

There might have been some Italian privateers in Sanremo, but not much other competitive ones. And some of them were like semi-factory drivers, just doing a national series.

From the top of my mind, I recall these small programs (from ewrc-results, I wasn't even born during Group B):
Lampi, Eklund, Grissmann, Buffum (Audi)
Vudafieri, Biasion (Lancia, even though Jolly Club was a sort of semi-works team)
Turiani, Recordati, Iwase (Opel)
Eklund (Austin Rover, I don't know how official was his entry)
Meylan, Iwashita (Nissan)
many Citroen Visa

Most of them could only dream of competing with top teams, but could achieve top 5 places when there was high attrition. Actually some group A cars, especially works Golf of Eriksson, could achieve the same good results with high attrition or lower entries.

AnttiL

2nd July 2022, 21:28

Well we got Serderidis now :D

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Or Greensmith and Loubet

AnttiL

2nd July 2022, 21:32

From the top of my mind, I recall these small programs (from ewrc-results, I wasn't even born during Group B):
Lampi, Eklund, Grissmann, Buffum (Audi)
Vudafieri, Biasion (Lancia, even though Jolly Club was a sort of semi-works team)
Turiani, Recordati, Iwase (Opel)
Eklund (Austin Rover, I don't know how official was his entry)
Meylan, Iwashita (Nissan)
many Citroen Visa

Most of them could only dream of competing with top teams, but could achieve top 5 places when there was high attrition. Actually some group A cars, especially works Golf of Eriksson, could achieve the same good results with high attrition or lower entries.

Lampi was Audi's test driver. Eklund "could only dream of competing with top teams" LOL, he was a Saab works driver already in the 70's. Eklund's Metro was entered by the factory team in Sweden and RAC, by Clarion in other events. So at least semi-factory entry.

Grissmann was fifth in Portugal 1985, losing an hour to the winner. Iwase lost 1h44m in Argentina 1984, being behind the fastest local Renault 11. That's Serderidis pace. Tchine (Turiani) was also much a gentleman driver, his fifth place comes from Portugal 1986 where the works teams withdrew!

We can also add Harri Toivonen into the list, driving a Metro in 1000 Lakes and RAC 1986, not going really anywhere.

Like you say, most of them could achieve top 5 results when there was high attrition, similarly as Group A cars. And it's the same as Rally2 cars getting to top 5 now.

But yeah, times are different. Rallying was big and car manufacturers put lot of marketing money into rallying, even dealers supporting drivers in national championships. It's not the same anymore.

And about privateers in general. If we assume the current factory cars would suddenly turn into Rally2 - on the same level as current WRC2 privateers - but all the effort from the factory teams, testing and professional sporting and skill and experience from the drivers would remain, the "privateers" couldn't win a single stage against the factory guys, if not for exceptional weather conditions. The level of competition and detail is just so high on the top level.

cali

2nd July 2022, 21:43

Or Greensmith and LoubetThey are in the official team, scoring even team points. True privateer is Serderidis and in some scale yes, Loubet.
Greensmith is a factory driver and been in that position for a couple of seasons, although not by merit.

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AnttiL

2nd July 2022, 21:58

They are in the official team, scoring even team points. True privateer is Serderidis and in some scale yes, Loubet.
Greensmith is a factory driver and been in that position for a couple of season, although not by merit.

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Loubet does not score team points, neither does Greensmith when Loeb is driving.

WRCStan

2nd July 2022, 22:42

Greensmith is a factory driver and been in that position for a couple of season, although not by merit.

:confused: How then?

True privateer to me enters themselves, ideally running their own car. Serderidis was entered by M-Sport Ford WRT in a car he owns (https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-has-sold-the-first-privateer-rally1-car/) so he must leases it out to M-Sport (https://www.ewrc-results.com/carinfo/163-ford-puma-rally1/?car=5836) to use. Greensmith brings the family businesses as sponsors. These are more like investors than privateers.

On Group B and A, manufacturers were forced to build 200 or 5000 extra cars for sale or use.

cali

2nd July 2022, 23:44

Loubet does not score team points, neither does Greensmith when Loeb is driving.

That's a great list of privateers even if you count that way (sarcasm alert)

focus206

2nd July 2022, 23:52

Eklund "could only dream of competing with top teams" LOL, he was a Saab works driver already in the 70's. Eklund's Metro was entered by the factory team in Sweden and RAC, by Clarion in other events. So at least semi-factory entry.

Did you forget to read the 3 words I wrote before "could only dream of competing with top teams"?

cali

2nd July 2022, 23:53

Lampi was Audi's test driver. Eklund "could only dream of competing with top teams" LOL, he was a Saab works driver already in the 70's. Eklund's Metro was entered by the factory team in Sweden and RAC, by Clarion in other events. So at least semi-factory entry.

Grissmann was fifth in Portugal 1985, losing an hour to the winner. Iwase lost 1h44m in Argentina 1984, being behind the fastest local Renault 11. That's Serderidis pace. Tchine (Turiani) was also much a gentleman driver, his fifth place comes from Portugal 1986 where the works teams withdrew!

We can also add Harri Toivonen into the list, driving a Metro in 1000 Lakes and RAC 1986, not going really anywhere.

Like you say, most of them could achieve top 5 results when there was high attrition, similarly as Group A cars. And it's the same as Rally2 cars getting to top 5 now.

But yeah, times are different. Rallying was big and car manufacturers put lot of marketing money into rallying, even dealers supporting drivers in national championships. It's not the same anymore.

And about privateers in general. If we assume the current factory cars would suddenly turn into Rally2 - on the same level as current WRC2 privateers - but all the effort from the factory teams, testing and professional sporting and skill and experience from the drivers would remain, the "privateers" couldn't win a single stage against the factory guys, if not for exceptional weather conditions. The level of competition and detail is just so high on the top level.

Surprise surprise, there was privateer drivers in the gr B. Glad that we got this sorted.

OHL

3rd July 2022, 04:19

Surprise surprise, there was privateer drivers in the gr B. Glad that we got this sorted.

The rules were so different then. It was allowed to service between stages, service in the stages, spare parts were carried in entry cars like a “water carrier” does at Dakar, engineers were sometimes in a third seat in an entered car.
Buffum had some great stories about driving the car with the engineer in it and the guy falling asleep mid-stage!
The clever teams took every tactical advantage possible and this created opportunities for other drivers who were fairly quick to be entered in these events and support the main crews.
It’s just not like that now.
I’d also wager from pure cost point of view that although teams spent less on the car itself, they spent such an enormous amount more on spare parts, logistics and time on-event than is done now that the overall costs were much higher. Meaning a privateer driver had to come up with a huge budget to compete OR they had to deliver some value that the team would heavily subsidize or fully cover their entry.
It would be great to have a deeper field but many of the reasons there have been deeper fields in the past are not currently factors.

AnttiL

3rd July 2022, 07:12

Surprise surprise, there was privateer drivers in the gr B. Glad that we got this sorted.

Gentlemen drivers and semi-factory drivers.
Just like today.

cali

3rd July 2022, 07:19

Gentlemen drivers and semi-factory drivers.
Just like today.Your claim was that there was no privateers in the 80's which was not true. And 80's was not good for privateers which shows how deep trouble we are in.

That was my point and you actually validated this.

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AnttiL

3rd July 2022, 07:49

On Group B and A, manufacturers were forced to build 200 or 5000 extra cars for sale or use.

Street model cars. Even in Group B. Only 20 rally cars were mandatory to make.

AnttiL

3rd July 2022, 07:52

Your claim was that there was no privateers in the 80's which was not true. And 80's was not good for privateers which shows how deep trouble we are in.

That was my point and you actually validated this.

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My point was more like "there was no competitive privateers in the 80's". There has always been privateers in rally, from the 50's onwards. But it's a different thing when they have been competitive. I have seen some footage from the 60's where a journalist is asking the clerk of the course of 1000 Lakes Rally, what should be done to make the privateers more competitive (in terms of practicing and route difficulty etc). So it's not a new thing for the 2020's.

The exception was in the Group A and early WRC era when some individual drivers got a good car and managed to get a good single result like Kytölehto in Finland, and even those two were due to low entries in factory teams (for example Mitsubishi with just one competitive car) and technical issues for factory entries.

wyler

3rd July 2022, 09:55

from what i know first hand, related only to italian stuff, fiat, abarth, lancia, but also in the gr a era with subaru italy i.e. most of the "privateer" was in fact satellite team, entered as privateer but funded by the manus and directly controlled by them, used as lab, testing or to grow youngster and engineers, in many case it was just the national championship division running the wrc event as a privateer.

AnttiL

3rd July 2022, 10:35

WRCStan

3rd July 2022, 11:46

Street model cars. Even in Group B. Only 20 rally cars were mandatory to make.

And 250/yr Group A in 90s, it provided the capacity for the satellites and privateers back then that doesn't exist today. And, the 20/250 were still related to the initial 200/2500 'street' production that justified it being a championship for production manufacturers. In 2022, there's no extra capacity and at 1 serious manufacturer that justification has gone IMO.

Why can't a Williams, Haas or AlphaTauri build a Rally1 car? Oops I forgot: because it's too expensive.

wyler

3rd July 2022, 12:00

Why can't a Williams, Haas or AlphaTauri build a Rally1 car? Oops I forgot: because it's too expensive.

they can, just as m-sport. and they have more than enough money, if they can tackle f1. so the point is just marketing return that is not worth enough for them.

WRCStan

3rd July 2022, 13:20

they can, just as m-sport. and they have more than enough money, if they can tackle f1. so the point is just marketing return that is not worth enough for them.

Without a willing manufacturer partner?

AnttiL

3rd July 2022, 13:22

Without a willing manufacturer partner?

I assume it’s a rhetorical question

WRCStan

3rd July 2022, 13:37

I assume it’s a rhetorical question

No, is it a big ask to be corrected if I'm spouting shite? M-Sport have Ford approval, for required entry in the manufacturers championship and there's R5 projects haven't been homologated because there was no manufacturer support. I've never seen a Haas driving on the street so maybe they have them in other countries?

AnttiL

3rd July 2022, 13:42

You need the manufacturer to homologate a car

WRCStan

3rd July 2022, 14:07

they can, just as m-sport. and they have more than enough money, if they can tackle f1. so the point is just marketing return that is not worth enough for them.

You need the manufacturer to homologate a car

The Rally1 manufacturer or the manufacturer of the series production vehicle it is based on?

Because if you mean the Rally1 manufacturer, I'd still be confused why the Mitsubishi R5 struggled when there was a business case for building the car in the first place.

If you mean the series-prod, you mean to disagree with wyler? I don't know if your like means you agree.

wyler

3rd July 2022, 14:40

AndyRAC

3rd July 2022, 15:03

The Rally1 manufacturer or the manufacturer of the series production vehicle it is based on?

Because if you mean the Rally1 manufacturer, I'd still be confused why the Mitsubishi R5 struggled when there was a business case for building the car in the first place.

If you mean the series-prod, you mean to disagree with wyler? I don't know if your like means you agree.

The manufacturer of the production road car has to sign/agree to the homologation papers for it to be used in a FiA series. The Mirage R5 didn't receive it, and ran in national events. There is still one run on BTRDA events here in the UK. Mitsubishi had no interest in the Mirage R5, for whatever reason and the car wasn't internationally homologated.

I'm not sure why people are using a comparison with F1 constructors; it's slightly different. Some are owned by a car manufacturer; others are solely in business to race in F1, without selling production cars.

The WRC is a motorsport series using cars based on production cars, built by mainstream manufacturers......That's not likely to change unless the FiA decide to.

WRCStan

3rd July 2022, 15:45

you need a manufacturer but has it happens with those same f1 teams to have engines by others, i don't think that's the problem stopping them.
i mean, with money enough, i assume that manufacturer can give homologation permits.

even the same ford, can maybe have more than 1 team, right?
maybe something like a dirtfish subaru team usa by haas could also be...

It seems if there was a rule saying you need to place the koh-i-noor on the dark side of the moon, folk will still argue the cost is the issue. Thankfully Andy has put us right on Mitsubishi, that money is sometimes not the problem. This manufacturer rule is simply out of date and potentially throttling engagement.

I'm not sure why people are using a comparison with F1 constructors; it's slightly different. Some are owned by a car manufacturer; others are solely in business to race in F1, without selling production cars.

The WRC is a motorsport series using cars based on production cars, built by mainstream manufacturers......That's not likely to change unless the FiA decide to.

I brought F1 up because CNC machines and energy drinks are going racing, constructing their own race cars without need for building thousands of non-identical road cars. I get there's still engine suppliers etc, it's not the ideal. Point is, WRC was based on production cars, but it's not now, so why is everybody imposing this 'road car manufacturers'. Actually, I'm wondering over these recent posts if consensus is that the manufacturers championship is for 'rally car manufacturers'.

Anyway, I'll bet the FIA will realise this, and we'll get Dirtfish Haas Team USA using any suppliers they want before seeing Rally2 as flagship class. IMO it's certainly in the best interests of promoting and growing the global sport as we often discuss.

wyler

3rd July 2022, 16:38

It seems if there was a rule saying you need to place the koh-i-noor on the dark side of the moon, folk will still argue the cost is the issue. Thankfully Andy has put us right on Mitsubishi, that money is sometimes not the problem. This manufacturer rule is simply out of date and potentially throttling engagement.

I brought F1 up because CNC machines and energy drinks are going racing, constructing their own race cars without need for building thousands of non-identical road cars. I get there's still engine suppliers etc, it's not the ideal. Point is, WRC was based on production cars, but it's not now, so why is everybody imposing this 'road car manufacturers'. Actually, I'm wondering over these recent posts if consensus is that the manufacturers championship is for 'rally car manufacturers'.

Anyway, I'll bet the FIA will realise this, and we'll get Dirtfish Haas Team USA using any suppliers they want before seeing Rally2 as flagship class. IMO it's certainly in the best interests of promoting and growing the global sport as we often discuss.

i think you misunderstood what i wrote...i'm exactly saying money is not the issue, and we could have others like m-sport building cars with manus approval as easy as signing a paper (look at xtreme e, team have no problem to have a fixed car model, the just care the pr).
point is, opposite to yours, no one is interested in wrc promotion nowadays. that's the problem, not the regulation. cnc machines and energy drinks just don't care about having a team in wrc like they do in f1, because is not marketing worthy. to have dirtfish haas team we need them to have an interest in doing so, not a manufacter to sign papers. if not, we would have plenty of articles on dirtfish saying that they need a manus for their team.

EstWRC

3rd July 2022, 16:59

topic 2022 WRC News & Rumours

AnttiL

3rd July 2022, 19:49

topic 2022 WRC News & Rumours

There’s no current news anyway

AnttiL

3rd July 2022, 22:16

Some rally manufacturer teams have been subdivisions of the actual car company (like Hyundai is and Citroen was). Sometimes an external rally team is hired to do the job, but the car company provides the budget (like Subaru/Prodrive and Ford/M-Sport until 2012). Toyota Gazoo started in 2017 by ordering the operations from Tommi Mäkinen Racing, but last year they bought the operations back to in-house.

Current M-Sport is a more rare case since M-Sport’s financial side is completely independent from Ford and they have their own business models (pay drivers, car renting, car selling, spare parts etc) that other teams don’t share. Yes, they are married with Ford who agrees to homologate their cars and gives some support in form of car development, but no actual budget.

So, could Williams or another racing team achieve what M-Sport does and build a Rally1 car? Yes, but only with co-operation of a car manufacturer. It would have to resemble a street model and be homologated with manu’s agreement.

WRCStan

4th July 2022, 00:12

If there's much more to discuss I agree it needs a new/existing philosophy thread as this has moved on from pointing out what's holding back privateers. Folk can see where I am, so I'll close by pointing out that the Bahraini state paired up with Prodrive for no other real purpose than to build their own car and go rallying and you can tell it's not in WRC because that's an impossible situation. It should be possible and that's something the rule makers could at least consider.

rallyfiend

4th July 2022, 07:16

AnttiL

4th July 2022, 21:10

But it's still more like a sponsorship than an ownership.

As for Castrol, even the full-factory teams have external sponsors with similarly sized decals. But Red Bull must be bigger for this season.

Fast Eddie WRC

5th July 2022, 09:31

Ford (Performance) give M-Sport a lot of support in developing their car and get their logos on it in return. But they dont give them cash and certainly dont provide funding to pay for the drivers - that's down to M.Wilson and his company.

Castrol have sponsored M-Sport cars for many years. This isn't directly because of Ford but Ford do 'recommend' Castrol / BP oil and fuels in general.

Eli

6th July 2022, 10:10

djip

6th July 2022, 10:21

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/three-brands-evaluating-future-wrc-move-if-rules-are-changed/10333742/

As previously reported in Italian media outlets, Alpine Skoda & Opel are the manufacturers in question.

I know the prospect of electric rally cars is not that appealing, however if the series wants to become relevant again and draw attention from multiple manufacturers, it ought to go full electric. Like it or not, the transition to full electric for road cars is coming, and splashing cars around multuple terrains, in all wetather conditions would be a PR dream to demontrsate to customers the value proposition of the technology. Race on sunday, buy on monday at its best...
I'll miss the excitment of screaming cars in the middle of the night of the 70's, the pure speed of Gr.B and recent-specs cars, but the writing is on the wall ....

Fast Eddie WRC

6th July 2022, 12:50

Two big problems though...

1. Existing battery life does not allow for rally distances

2. Near silent electric rally cars could alienate the old fanbase (and be dangerous)

ictus

6th July 2022, 17:04

Two big problems though...

1. Existing battery life does not allow for rally distances

2. Near silent electric rally cars could alienate the old fanbase (and be dangerous)

1. changable batteries will do the trick
2. but can also bring new fans, they can also mount speakers and simulate grB sounds ;)

mknight

6th July 2022, 17:39

Two big problems though...

1. Existing battery life does not allow for rally distances

2. Near silent electric rally cars could alienate the old fanbase (and be dangerous)

1. Is BS and you know it. Check out how often Baumschlager has to charge and compare it with refuels for petrol rally cars, Baumschlager himself says it's like driving Lancers. Some changes to itenary might be needed but that's it.

2. Yes the cars need some sound, Baumschlager, Paddon and now Corsa-e are all testing different solutions. Managable problem.

Stating that electric cars definitely won't come by 2025 (as stated by someone in the article) makes sure no new manus show up.

rallyfiend

6th July 2022, 20:12

1. Is BS and you know it. Check out how often Baumschlager has to charge and compare it with refuels for petrol rally cars, Baumschlager himself says it's like driving Lancers. Some changes to itenary might be needed but that's it.

2. Yes the cars need some sound, Baumschlager, Paddon and now Corsa-e are all testing different solutions. Managable problem.

Stating that electric cars definitely won't come by 2025 (as stated by someone in the article) makes sure no new manus show up.

Well, they won't turn up before 2025 because these current cars are a fixed 3-year homologation....

Mk2 RS2000

7th July 2022, 06:41

Two big problems though...

1. Existing battery life does not allow for rally distances

Hydrogen cell technology overcomes battery size, power & storage issues

Fast Eddie WRC

7th July 2022, 08:56

Swapping batteries is like cheating if they're trying to promote this tech for the public. This would just show people that battery range is still a problem and put them off switching to electric. Everyone knows EVs works and the acceleration is great but it's the battery range that needs proving.

bluuford

7th July 2022, 09:11

Hydrogen cell technology overcomes battery size, power & storage issues

WRC has been always something where new technologies have been tested. Battery technology is old technology and and does not have sustainable future in current format (I say it as a part time geologist - my PhD study was on the borderline of ecology and geology). If we take all known geological resources, we can change all the cars to battery technology, but there are no more resources to replace all those batteries in the future, unless some new technology will be invented.

One of the most important law I studied at school was the law that was telling "the more weight you carry, the more energy you need." So, for me it is very strange that so far this law is ignored. We carry hybrid unit, we carry batteries and in total, depends on the car, proper Tesla battery weight is between 400-500 kg. and now imagine, millions of cars are carrying this extra weight.. does not sound very sustainable?
MK2 is right, we need concentrated energy. Hydrogen is on of them Currently Toyota Mirai fuel tank weight is around 80 kg, fuel capacity is around 5 kg, so, the weight in car is 85 kg. And you can cover approximately 500 km with this tank. For me, this is the way to develop. Hydrogen can be produced when the energy is cheap (too much wind or sun energy, high peaks of nuclear energy production and low consumption at the same time). So, we don't need to carry "power station" in each car, energy can be produced in centralized locations and we use only concentrated fuel.
At the same time it is hard to achieve, car manufacturers have made their investments in electric cars. Normal investment cycle is 30 years, 10 years you develop and spend money, next 10 years you earn back your investment, and final 10 years you earn profit.

WRC does not need to follow it, we can be innovative for once and not use 100+ years old technology and say it is new:)

Tanelv

7th July 2022, 11:14

WRC has been always something where new technologies have been tested. Battery technology is old technology and and does not have sustainable future in current format (I say it as a part time geologist - my PhD study was on the borderline of ecology and geology). If we take all known geological resources, we can change all the cars to battery technology, but there are no more resources to replace all those batteries in the future, unless some new technology will be invented.

One of the most important law I studied at school was the law that was telling "the more weight you carry, the more energy you need." So, for me it is very strange that so far this law is ignored. We carry hybrid unit, we carry batteries and in total, depends on the car, proper Tesla battery weight is between 400-500 kg. and now imagine, millions of cars are carrying this extra weight.. does not sound very sustainable?
MK2 is right, we need concentrated energy. Hydrogen is on of them Currently Toyota Mirai fuel tank weight is around 80 kg, fuel capacity is around 5 kg, so, the weight in car is 85 kg. And you can cover approximately 500 km with this tank. For me, this is the way to develop. Hydrogen can be produced when the energy is cheap (too much wind or sun energy, high peaks of nuclear energy production and low consumption at the same time). So, we don't need to carry "power station" in each car, energy can be produced in centralized locations and we use only concentrated fuel.
At the same time it is hard to achieve, car manufacturers have made their investments in electric cars. Normal investment cycle is 30 years, 10 years you develop and spend money, next 10 years you earn back your investment, and final 10 years you earn profit.

WRC does not need to follow it, we can be innovative for once and not use 100+ years old technology and say it is new:)

Yes, battery technology is old technology, but it is nowhere near developed to its full potential whereas ICE technology has reached 99,9% of it's possibilities. Battery tech is already showing promising solutions and I am sure as material technology is also helping bring innovative solutions we will see much more energy dense packs in the future. Car industry "big money" has supported battery tech far too short period to call it a dead end. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are also in principle electric cars which carry power plant with them to make electricity from H2 to store it shortly in battery, then use it with electric motor. That's a big issue with H2 in transportation, it has a lot of losses of energy compared to only battery powered cars and it makes cars more complicated.

AndyRAC

7th July 2022, 11:23

WRC does not need to follow it, we can be innovative for once and not use 100+ years old technology and say it is new:)

Yes, WRC hasn't been innovative for a long time; it tends to follow what other series do with technology. One of the reasons it can't attract manufacturers......who will go elsewhere to demonstrate new technology.

bluuford

7th July 2022, 11:30

Yes, battery technology is old technology, but it is nowhere near developed to its full potential whereas ICE technology has reached 99,9% of it's possibilities. Battery tech is already showing promising solutions and I am sure as material technology is also helping bring innovative solutions we will see much more energy dense packs in the future. Car industry "big money" has supported battery tech far too short period to call it a dead end. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are also in principle electric cars which carry power plant with them to make electricity from H2 to store it shortly in battery, then use it with electric motor. That's a big issue with H2 in transportation, it has a lot of losses of energy compared to only battery powered cars and it makes cars more complicated.

Yes I know:)
To me the next evolution would be proper solution to use H2 directly (basically like H2 powered ICE, to say it in a very simple manner). That would be proper innovation for me, lets see, I am not an engine engineer, so far I stick to weather, I know this field slightly better.

But I think we have gone too far from news in this topic ;)

J4MIE

7th July 2022, 14:43

I work in the UK gas industry and there is a lot of development towards using hydrogen in the network so it could be within a few years a lot more availability of hydrogen across the country.

We currently have two hydrogen cars at our office, but you have to remember the nearest filling point from here is approx 70km away…. :crazy:

Mk2 RS2000

8th July 2022, 09:16

Yes, battery technology is old technology, but it is nowhere near developed to its full potential whereas ICE technology has reached 99,9% of it's possibilities. Battery tech is already showing promising solutions and I am sure as material technology is also helping bring innovative solutions we will see much more energy dense packs in the future. Car industry "big money" has supported battery tech far too short period to call it a dead end. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are also in principle electric cars which carry power plant with them to make electricity from H2 to store it shortly in battery, then use it with electric motor. That's a big issue with H2 in transportation, it has a lot of losses of energy compared to only battery powered cars and it makes cars more complicated.

Take the time to check out the developments in the heavy vehicle industry. For example trucking and fork lifts using electric motors. Powered by hydrogen cells now becoming well developed in Asia and the USA There are a lot of things happening outside of Europe

Humber

9th July 2022, 12:43

The happiest people with electric vehicles in my assessment have been used Nissan Leaf owners who live outside small towns (20 to 30 km commute distance drive). Have their own home solar systems to charge the Nissans with.
The 2nd gen Toyota Mirai weighs 1920-1950kg an increase of up to 100kg over the first gen Mirai. The 2nd gen Mirai is heavier than the current edition standard range Tesla Model 3.(1835kg)

I have heard of people driving Teslas into the ground, that these people went back to driving gasoline/ petrol cars.
Any shift to new tech will involve winners and losers.

Ballard and fuel cell buses, Scotland. https://youtu.be/91ZCI9f_nmI

Hopefully Airpod can get their act together (compressed air short distance small vehicle)

The people that are 70km from the hydrogen refuel, might look (if rules allow) to get a few hydrogen cylinders like an oxy-acetylene torch cylinder setup, that can give them local partial hydrogen vehicle refuelling.

TypeR

10th July 2022, 11:10

Upgrades for Toyota:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-upgraded-toyota-the-wrc-will-see-in-tartu/

“Fowler: So yeah, a more powerful engine is coming.”

Hyundai..
https://www.upload.ee/image/14312268/6aj7jqejmo531.png

mknight

10th July 2022, 13:22

Wasn't the petrol engine supposed to be somehow "frozen" since mid-last year? Guess not everything is frozen.

I'd say MSport should be more concerned since even Fowler says this is a reaction to some Hyundai upgrades. Let's hope MSport doesn't start lagging too fast. (At least not before we see more starts with performing drivers)

Eli

11th July 2022, 16:29

https://twitter.com/RallyMexico/status/1546523302105174018?s=20&t=DsQM7XK5h6CbPgNp1iMMjg

Finally some (Good) news regarding next year's calendar, after leaving in a hurry due to the Covid-19 outbreak last time in 2020, we're back in Mexico for 2023. Finally (hopefully) we won't have that 2 month break between Sweden & Croatia & we won't have to wait until Portugal in May to see the cars on gravel for the first time during the season. Also will be interesting to see the new cars being put through their paces in the high altitude of the Guanajuato stages.

wyler

19th July 2022, 15:05

m-sport looking for experienced driver add on

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2022/wrc/m-sport-ford-considering-options-for-additional-driver/

skarderud

19th July 2022, 15:47

m-sport looking for experienced driver add on

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2022/wrc/m-sport-ford-considering-options-for-additional-driver/He has Mikkelsens number i presume. Just put the childish "pride" away.

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wyler

19th July 2022, 15:54

He has Mikkelsens number i presume. Just put the childish "pride" away.

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i think he has the number and can store the pride away, still, mikkelsen will not drive for free...
i bet "looking for a solution" is more like looking for cash.

skarderud

19th July 2022, 16:23

If M-sport looking for a free driver that can be top 3, i'll say "good luck".
Or good riddance.

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rallyfiend

19th July 2022, 16:32

wyler

19th July 2022, 16:33

If M-sport looking for a free driver that can be top 3, i'll say "good luck".
Or good riddance.

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i think the situation is exactly this, and not from just now. they try to shake the tree of pr from time to time to see what happens. maybe the bull will finally give mikkelsen some wing...

skarderud

19th July 2022, 17:19

i think the situation is exactly this, and not from just now. they try to shake the tree of pr from time to time to see what happens. maybe the bull will finally give mikkelsen some wing...Yeah, thats the only way in probably, but they already pay for Loeb?
And Fourmaux?

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EstWRC

19th July 2022, 19:23

Anyone here has access to this? I wonder what the “Tänak could be on the move” is about

https://rallysportmag.com/5-things-we-learnt-from-rally-estonia-2/

AndersX

19th July 2022, 19:48

He has Mikkelsens number i presume. Just put the childish "pride" away.

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They simply need to go with Mikkelsen to Norwegian Hyta, have some proper german beer and make a deal. Mikkelsen must be in the tight spot now also - he has won ERC and WRC2, whats left? What is the piont to pile up those Wrc 2 titles? He is not getting any younger, competition in Wrc2 becomes more serious etc etc. Both M-Sport and Mikkelsen are in the position of "need" without the strong leverage. It is real shame to see the nice Puma finish 7th. Mikkelsen is the only alternative, unless some guy named Thiery would loose all his cool and would want to save his carrier in the last moment ( Tanak can not - he has Rally 2 business with Hyundai together with Marko Martin).

mknight

19th July 2022, 19:53

m-sport looking for experienced driver add on

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2022/wrc/m-sport-ford-considering-options-for-additional-driver/

Breen even pointed this out himself before the start of the season. (That it's maybe not so good idea he is the only experienced driver).

As correctly pointed out this seems aimed at Ford or Redbull to give them more money.

The number of experienced and (at least partially) available drivers is quite limited though: Mikkelsen then maybe Østberg and a distant Paddon (unlikely due to Hyundai links) or Meeke (unlikely due to possible car repair costs). They kicked Suninen, so don't see them calling him.

Anyway, talking about possible solutions, they could offer something like zero salary up front and big bonuses for results/podium. But that still needs them having some money to run the car and someone else to play those bonuses if results come.

macebig

19th July 2022, 20:03

seb_sh

19th July 2022, 21:09

Unless Millener is talking about 2023, the only guy that fits his bill is admittedly Mikkelsen. He tested the Fiesta last year, so the contact is there, but who knows? It seems like time is running out for Fourmaux and Greensmith. The car can undoubtedly go, but their results are about the same (or worse...) as last year.

Fourmaux and Greensmith will have a car as long as they or their sponsors have money. The reality is Msport has 1 own car in the championship, Breen. All the other Fords are specifically funded by someone.

skarderud

20th July 2022, 06:26

https://www.parcferme.no/har-is-i-magen-med-tanke-pa-et-wrc-comeback/168898

Mikkelsen "has ice in his stomac" to get in an Rally1 car, he is quite happy with his Skoda-deal, and don't want to rush anything.

Just making clear that it is not an option to pay for a seat?

The journalist writes also that Stellantis, Alpine and Skoda are looking for new regs in Rally1 in 2024?

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cali

20th July 2022, 06:43

skarderud

20th July 2022, 06:52

Mikkelsen is quite old by then...

Sent from my DN2103 using TapatalkYeah, 36 or something.

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wyler

20th July 2022, 09:27

Yeah, thats the only way in probably, but they already pay for Loeb?
And Fourmaux?

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Definitely, so they can make a "team package" for every round.

let's say breen - seb/mikk - four

and then they can have a satellite team with gg + lou + spare entrants

but that's a fantasy manager rally edition i guess! : )

wyler

20th July 2022, 09:32

https://www.parcferme.no/har-is-i-magen-med-tanke-pa-et-wrc-comeback/168898

The journalist writes also that Stellantis, Alpine and Skoda are looking for new regs in Rally1 in 2024?

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

Rumor is confirmed by various sources, but only related to -let's say- "more commitment" on electric for the '25 reg

mknight

20th July 2022, 19:22

Mikkelsen is quite old by then...

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

35
Same as Ogier and Sordo in 2018 and Meeke in 2014! (1 year before even getting first WRC win)
Not to mention Gronholm in 2003.

Tanak is 35 this year.

So older, but not too old automatically.

Eli

20th July 2022, 20:29

Rumor is confirmed by various sources, but only related to -let's say- "more commitment" on electric for the '25 reg

So a bigger battery pack for the Hybrid unit or just waiting for it to be fully electric? because if I recall correctly they mentioned that the '25 regs will be 70-80% based on what we have now.

AnttiL

20th July 2022, 21:04

I think Alpine said they could start a WRC program in the next homologation cycle if it was more EV-based, but Andrew Wheatley hinted that Rally1 regulations will not change that much.

cali

20th July 2022, 22:13

35
Same as Ogier and Sordo in 2018 and Meeke in 2014! (1 year before even getting first WRC win)
Not to mention Gronholm in 2003.

Tanak is 35 this year.

So older, but not too old automatically.With much less Rally 1 experience than all the old guard.

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flat_right

21st July 2022, 07:54

EstWRC

21st July 2022, 08:02

cali

21st July 2022, 08:03

I think M-Sport should give Andreas at least a chance. Wherever he has participated, he has basically won all of them. This year, 3 WRC2 wins and 2 retirements from the lead. So can't blame that he is not delivering.Definitely he deserves a chance and we could see how he's compared to other M-Sport drivers

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Rallyper

21st July 2022, 08:36

AndyRAC

21st July 2022, 08:38

I think Alpine said they could start a WRC program in the next homologation cycle if it was more EV-based, but Andrew Wheatley hinted that Rally1 regulations will not change that much.

Which begs the question - if the new regs aren't likely to change much, how do they attract more manufacturers?

Here is an unpopular view; the WRC isn't as big/popular or relevant as those inside the sport like to think it is.......Can we be certain Hyundai will stick around?

And what makes it worse is seeing the Porsche, Ferrari & Cadillac Hypercars pounding around test tracks ready for their debuts in the next year or two....

Gustav Andel

21st July 2022, 08:41

rallyfiend

21st July 2022, 09:09

Which begs the question - if the new regs aren't likely to change much, how do they attract more manufacturers?

Here is an unpopular view; the WRC isn't as big/popular or relevant as those inside the sport like to think it is.......Can we be certain Hyundai will stick around?

And what makes it worse is seeing the Porsche, Ferrari & Cadillac Hypercars pounding around test tracks ready for their debuts in the next year or two....

Porsche and Ferrari are 'hyperbrands' competing in 'hypercars'. They would never be a target for WRC.
What it does show, however, is that few brands are genuinely attracted to full electric for their motorsport programmes. It is certainly dimiishing.
Hybrid remains the way to go.

I think people can also be a bit too quick too write off the appeal of WRC. I mean, christ, 3 of the top 5 brands in the entire world are competing in it!

skarderud

21st July 2022, 11:08

I've heard from several sources that Andreas is not a very pleasant person to deal with. He's very good at playing the media game but in the real world he can be very arrogant. I've also heard of a few cases where he didn't show up for the arranged tests, without an excuse. He doesn't want to pay, which I understand, but at this stage of his career his goal should be the WRC at all costs.

It's true that he wins everything he drives, but against the competition he sits in the car almost every day and still helps with his development. There's no substitute for the time in the car and the setup. And winning in the R5 is different than winning in the WRC.Greater speed and aero completely change the rules of the "game" .

So now he's probably waiting for the new car companies to enter the championship.

So at the end of the day I think he should drive in the WRC, but he's to blame for not driving.Well, he was some kind of a playboy in younger years, but he has grown up i presume.
I don't think arrogant is a valid exuse, several drivers seems quite arrogant thru the years, not like in F1, but still. And they still has a seat, so that can't be a reason.

He is probably the biggest talent that shows that WRC is not good enough in terms of teams and interest, the promoter hasn't did a good enough job to attract more teams and sponsors.

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Eli

21st July 2022, 11:17

I think Alpine said they could start a WRC program in the next homologation cycle if it was more EV-based, but Andrew Wheatley hinted that Rally1 regulations will not change that much.

Speaking of the devil:

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/fia-sets-out-timeline-for-wrc-future-regulations-roadmap-/10340909/

WRCStan

21st July 2022, 12:25

Speaking of the devil:

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/fia-sets-out-timeline-for-wrc-future-regulations-roadmap-/10340909/

Reading Wheatley's comments about the entire pyramid makes me call bollocks on Stellantis, Alpine and Skoda being attracted to Rally1.

Is R-GTe next?

wyler

21st July 2022, 12:53

Viable route could be manus own electric motor for rally1 and rally2 from 2025 and extended mileage on ev (maybe also a couple km ss dedicated to it)
it's not full ev, but brands involved in ev could still pr a lot on it. i think this could be good compromise between manus and fans...

wyler

21st July 2022, 12:54

Reading Wheatley's comments about the entire pyramid makes me call bollocks on Stellantis, Alpine and Skoda being attracted to Rally1.

Is R-GTe next?

more or less they're all already around lower tiers...

AndyRAC

21st July 2022, 18:27

Porsche and Ferrari are 'hyperbrands' competing in 'hypercars'. They would never be a target for WRC.
What it does show, however, is that few brands are genuinely attracted to full electric for their motorsport programmes. It is certainly dimiishing.
Hybrid remains the way to go.

I think people can also be a bit too quick too write off the appeal of WRC. I mean, christ, 3 of the top 5 brands in the entire world are competing in it!

Ha ha, you've misunderstood me. I've never thought they would be remotely interested in WRC, it's not their market. I used them examples to show how some series can attract manufacturers with the right regs, ROI, etc

mknight

21st July 2022, 19:35

my guess is that there must be a certain reason why no one hires him, i mean everybody knows the drivers and each other so well inside the service park and teams

from what i have heard from his Hyundai days is that he couldnt come up with his own set-up, always copied Thierrys, Loeb etc

On VW days he copied Ogiers set-up, i remember Latvala even admitting it in one interview some time back and didnt even he himself mention it? dont remember anymore

In VW days (as a fresh WRC driver) he tried to mimic Ogier in everything. Latvala did as well (less left foot braking etc, was interviewed om that) and it didn't work for him so he went back. Worked for Mikkelsen since he started winning rallies.

I very much doubt this was the case at Hyundai since he was getting own diffs etc. (commented on when Loeb was forced to drive same diff in Portugal), and it certainly isn't true in Skoda when he is the only top driver ( and got own dif. made both for snow and fast gravel last year).
That he was struggling to set up the Hyundai is certain, Loeb and Tanak were as well for multiple years.

About being hard to work with... I have no idea, but the same has been said about every second driver in WRC at some point.

I don't think there is one specific reason for him not having a drive. Just a sum of circumstances. Note that in 2017 he got the 2 year Hyundai contract which at that time seemed to be the best contract you could get. Struggling there certainly hurt a lot. Now with Loebs and Tanaks experience it looks very different.
On top of that Citroen unexpectedly left and then corona came, note that Latvala and Meeke also lost their drives at that moment.

Another real option came before this year. Again small things, Lappi fits better for fast rallies that Ogier doesn't do (Mikkelsen is better at "Ogiers" rallies), Breen seemed on upwards trajectory and MSport only has one paid driver seat and Hyundai goes all or nothing with Solberg no matter results.

mknight

21st July 2022, 19:41

WRCStan

21st July 2022, 21:53

Keeping cars 80% same as Rally1 now means no new manus.

The only chance to get new manus is 100% electric.

Agreed, or stop chasing manufacturers via the marques. Reading Wheatley's quotes, I'm again left wondering why they only want to talk to the manufacturer marques. 'A manufacturer's customer operation can support an entry' - and who might be the shining example of that?

TypeR

22nd July 2022, 04:34

........
Worked for Mikkelsen since he started winning rallies.

Lol..

Total of massive THREE wins thru all the years.. (2 of them thanks to Ogier's off and Tänak's puncture)

flat_right

22nd July 2022, 07:15

Finnish rally site is reporting that they couldn't speak with Ott and Thierry during the test in Finland although they had agreed some interviews. The order came from somewhere higher up in the team.

https://www.rallit.fi/hyundain-rallitiimi-sulki-tahtikuljettajiensa-suut-suomessa/

skarderud

22nd July 2022, 08:13

Agreed, or stop chasing manufacturers via the marques. Reading Wheatley's quotes, I'm again left wondering why they only want to talk to the manufacturer marques. 'A manufacturer's customer operation can support an entry' - and who might be the shining example of that?Maybe it's time to quit the mandatory manufacturers in the WRC?
Today you can't even build a car and get it homologated without the manufacturers, several has tried to build R5's thru the years but hasen't been able to race it because of no interest from the manu.

In the 90's everyone can take a cosworth or a celica and build it to a gr.A car, i know the modell had to been build in 2500 ex and all that, but todays profesional teams (like prodrive, toksport, printsport) could build a car in rally2-rally5 at a same level as the manu's, and have own sollutions.

It's just a political question, the sport can't relly on manu's, they are not interessted enough and the lower classes has to be open for private teams to survive.

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skarderud

22nd July 2022, 08:14

Lol..

Total of massive THREE wins thru all the years.. (2 of them thanks to Ogier's off and Tänak's puncture)Or, was able to put pressure on them so they did mistakes....

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krissucool

22nd July 2022, 08:28

Or, was able to put pressure on them so they did mistakes....

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Dude, that level of nuthugging is just pathetic.

Ogier was leading by 50 seconds when he made a mistake at final stage. Tänak by 18 seconds with 2 last stages to go in Poland.

Unreal.

AndyRAC

22nd July 2022, 08:41

'A manufacturer's customer operation can support an entry' - and who might be the shining example of that?

That's like the GT3 motorsport programmes; Porsche, Audi, etc all have cars entered by customer teams; Phoenix, WRT, Sainteloc, Falken, Manthey, etc The manufacturers provide support and factory drivers.

WRCStan

22nd July 2022, 09:44

Maybe it's time to quit the mandatory manufacturers in the WRC?

100%

That's like the GT3 motorsport programmes; Porsche, Audi, etc all have cars entered by customer teams; Phoenix, WRT, Sainteloc, Falken, Manthey, etc The manufacturers provide support and factory drivers.

If that's his point he could enable it in Rally1, but I think he means more manufacturers with customer racing departments in house.

skarderud

22nd July 2022, 10:07

Dude, that level of nuthugging is just pathetic.

Ogier was leading by 50 seconds when he made a mistake at final stage. Tänak by 18 seconds with 2 last stages to go in Poland.

Unreal.Pathetic?

Unreal?

Please.

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Maui J.

22nd July 2022, 10:39

Maybe it's time to quit the mandatory manufacturers in the WRC?
Today you can't even build a car and get it homologated without the manufacturers, several has tried to build R5's thru the years but hasen't been able to race it because of no interest from the manu.

Totally agree. Waiting for manufacturers approval means so much red tape, so much debate amongst the marketing team to agree, so much 'is this the right look for our brand' etc etc. The reasons for not entering the WRC or just rally in general gets longer and longer.

Allowing non-manufacturer approved but fully legal/safety approved/correct spec R5s to run in FIA events is the way forward. If a company like Prodrive started making Renault R5s for example, I'm sure there would be great interest from privateers as well as national dealer/importer teams. I'm sure it wouldn't be long before we saw the GB Renault Team or the Norwegian Renault Team etc.

AP4 spec down in this part of world took off about 5 years ago. Within a couple of years there were AP4 cars from Mazda, Hyundai, Holden, Audi, Skoda, Suzuki, Mitsubishi, Toyota, Mini, & Ford. None of these required manufacturer approval, (btw you will see a bunch of these cars at Rally NZ in September). The market here in NZ and Australia is fairly small so the numbers plateaued quickly, but I'm sure in Europe demand for a similar non-manufacturer approved R5 would be strong. Especially if drivers secured backing from their local importers.

From here, if a brand is doing well in national championship events this would surely impress the factory to look more closely at entering a possible semi-factory team in ERC or WRC. Then from R5 cars they may be tempted into going bigger into WRC. Like we saw with Hyundai (2000), Suzuki (2007) and SEAT (1998) for example who played around in the smaller league before joining the big boys in the premier league.

What ever happened to the Mitsubishi Mirage R5 that Ralliart Sweden developed? What a shame this was never approved by Mitsubishi.

I feel the rules need to be relaxed, so at least we start seeing a bit of movement with new marques coming into the fold. It may not be at the very top, but it's a start.

seb_sh

22nd July 2022, 11:20

Agreed, I don't see any good reason for which Rally 2 cars require manufacturer approval. I suppose they could request a certain number of cars to be built and sold with a price cap to avoid homologation specials, but other than that it seems the WRC keeps screwing itself over. In my opinion a more open approach will bring more variety, more competition and lift the championship interest. The key is healthy competition. Look at GT3, TCR, BTCC.

rallyfiend

22nd July 2022, 11:34

seb_sh

22nd July 2022, 13:25

GT3 requires manufacturer approval for homologation.... I think TCR does too...

My mistake, i thought anyone could develop a GT3

cali

22nd July 2022, 13:50

Or, was able to put pressure on them so they did mistakes....

Sent fra min SM-G950F via TapatalkOr maybe it's just norwegian glasses

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skarderud

22nd July 2022, 13:54

Or maybe it's just norwegian glasses

Sent from my DN2103 using TapatalkOr estonian.

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ouvreur

22nd July 2022, 15:01

Or estonian.

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Erm... believing 'Mikkelsen pressure' was what caused Ogier to throw away the Spain win in 2015 and Tanak to get one of the unluckiest punctures in human history in Poland 2016... those will be Norwegian glasses you're wearing, sir.

denkimi

22nd July 2022, 15:12

Keeping cars 80% same as Rally1 now means no new manus.

The only chance to get new manus is 100% electric.
And while doing so loose 90% of spectators, which will cause all manufacturers to lose interest too due to no more revenue.

Wrc just needs to let the people who have the means to build a car compete, without having approval from one of the few remaining car companies. If they did this to f1 we would have like 6 cars on the grid left.

WRCStan

22nd July 2022, 15:18

Where were all you guys 10-15 pages ago? :D

cali

22nd July 2022, 15:48

Or estonian.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via TapatalkLast time I checked Ogier was still french

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cali

22nd July 2022, 15:50

Erm... believing 'Mikkelsen pressure' was what caused Ogier to throw away the Spain win in 2015 and Tanak to get one of the unluckiest punctures in human history in Poland 2016... those will be Norwegian glasses you're wearing, sir.Huuuge norwegian glasses

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skarderud

22nd July 2022, 17:00

skarderud

22nd July 2022, 17:00

Double

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cali

22nd July 2022, 17:27

So, you guys don't think a double reigning champion deserves a seat in wrc?

Who else? The question was who can step in at Ford, and he is the only one serious candidate for that seat, whatever national glasses.

And don't come dragging with some has been like meeke, Aava, gardemeister, grønholm or some youngster without experience, thats not what in the discusion here.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via TapatalkI've told here before that I like the idea of Mikkelsen in a Puma. I think he deserves at least a chance.
It's strange why he hasn't been offered Rally 1 seat time before but I guess there's reasons.
Just that I see what concerns Mikkelsen his fanboys start to post nonsense.

And btw his speed in Rally2 hasn't been overwhelming. He beats the oppostion by experience but has had good resistance and by the looks of last year Lappi destroyed him and look how he is still struggling in Rally 1 and he has the best car in his hands.

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mknight

22nd July 2022, 20:01

Lol..

Total of massive THREE wins thru all the years.. (2 of them thanks to Ogier's off and Tänak's puncture)

2016 rally wins (note 2 day cleaning for championship leaders):

Ogier 6 (1st on the road whole year)
Mikkelsen 2 ( 2nd almost whole year)
Meeke 2 (one of last cars om both)
JML, Neuville, Paddon 1

Tanak to get one of the unluckiest punctures in human history in Poland 2016...

You sure it wasn't unluckiest puncture in the whole universe?

Does Mikkelsens snowbank excursion on last stage of Sweden 2015 while leading count as unluckiest in all universes then?

Mikkelsens driveshaft failure (mechanic-induced) while leading Turkey 2018 by 40s is out of this world definitely.

..or more like, it's rally, shit happens.

And btw his speed in Rally2 hasn't been overwhelming. He beats the oppostion by experience but has had good resistance and by the looks of last year Lappi destroyed him and look how he is still struggling in Rally 1 and he has the best car in his hands.

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Lappi beat him in one rally, single, uno, 1, ein...

This year a fast snow rally like that one has been his so far only decent result.
Impossible to conclude how either of them would do on any different rally based on single result. With regards to the car, note that Lappi also struggled with the dominating 2018 Toyota.

Mikkelsen has highly positive score in Rally2 vs Sordo, Breen, Suninen, Fourmaux and Solberg from the last few years. But yes since mid last year he no longer tries to dominate but instead just controls a win.
Ogier has won his 5 last titles "by experience", rather than by dominating, or maybe he won them cause he didn't try to dominate.

mknight

22nd July 2022, 20:13

And while doing so loose 90% of spectators, which will cause all manufacturers to lose interest too due to no more revenue.

Wrc just needs to let the people who have the means to build a car compete, without having approval from one of the few remaining car companies. If they did this to f1 we would have like 6 cars on the grid left.

In an article about rally Estonia, Aava comments drop in spectator numbers.
One of his explanations based on some poll is that most people (60% -out of what?) said they will watch online.

For online watchers sound means close to zero. (since the volume of all cars is tuned to same level and hidden under commentary and/or co-driver).

Sound is right now the only big difference between petrol/hybrid and full EV, and it's not something that is impossible to change.

Hence I am extremely sceptical of your 90% claim.

But I do agree that going more "hobby"/non-manu teams could also be a different way.

cali

22nd July 2022, 20:32

In an article about rally Estonia, Aava comments drop in spectator numbers.
One of his explanations based on some poll is that most people (60% -out of what?) said they will watch online.

For online watchers sound means close to zero. (since the volume of all cars is tuned to same level and hidden under commentary and/or co-driver).

Sound is right now the only big difference between petrol/hybrid and full EV, and it's not something that is impossible to change.

Hence I am extremely sceptical of your 90% claim.

But I do agree that going more "hobby"/non-manu teams could also be a different way.
True, I know lots of friends and people who preferred to stay behind the screen but where did you come up with the conclusion that for these guys sound is not important? Knowing personally quite few of them I know their preference and sound is totally one of them.

becher

22nd July 2022, 22:14

In an article about rally Estonia, Aava comments drop in spectator numbers.
One of his explanations based on some poll is that most people (60% -out of what?) said they will watch online.

For online watchers sound means close to zero. (since the volume of all cars is tuned to same level and hidden under commentary and/or co-driver).

Sound is right now the only big difference between petrol/hybrid and full EV, and it's not something that is impossible to change.

Hence I am extremely sceptical of your 90% claim.

But I do agree that going more "hobby"/non-manu teams could also be a different way.

Sound is the only difference between BEV an ICE powered vehicle? Newton wants to have a word with you.

Franky

23rd July 2022, 09:55

Rally Estonia has got quite expensive to spectate as well. And if you want massive crowds, you need to be also aware of price sensitivity.

flat_right

23rd July 2022, 19:09

Rally Estonia has got quite expensive to spectate as well. And if you want massive crowds, you need to be also aware of price sensitivity.

In a Betsafe podcast Aava admitted himself that the price is a bit too expensive. And just in case if someone from Rally Estonia team is reading this, then in my opinion it really was. Basically the same as in Rally Finland but compare the salaries people earn here. And then you start to calculate is it really worth it with the gas prices, accommodation etc.

cali

23rd July 2022, 20:28

In a Betsafe podcast Aava admitted himself that the price is a bit too expensive. And just in case if someone from Rally Estonia team is reading this, then in my opinion it really was. Basically the same as in Rally Finland but compare the salaries people earn here. And then you start to calculate is it really worth it with the gas prices, accommodation etc.Expensive, yes. At the same time not overly expensive and worth the money for me.
Bcs less spectators we had no issues with traffic, so I liked it a lot. Was expecting far worse.

Still my favourite rally is Catalunia :)

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KiwiWRCfan

24th July 2022, 09:10

Australia has multiple states each with a different state government.
It is state governments that fund major sporting events in Oz.

“We are in discussions with Australia over a new event, with a new government partner, hopefully for 2024” Simon Larkin, WRC Promoter Event Director

AndyRAC

24th July 2022, 10:14

Yes, I'm sure a change in state government brought about the end of Perth as the Australia hosting WRC round. Would love to see that back, but one fears it's history.

AnttiL

27th July 2022, 20:50

cali

28th July 2022, 05:30

Rally Finland spectator guide says that it's rumored that in the near future, Portugal and Catalunya would be losing their WRC status and be replaced by Cyprus and Latvia...there's an interview with Simon Larkin about getting WRC events in Middle East, North America etc. and reducing events in Europe, but this rumor is from the magazine's "own sources"Hate to see both Portugal and specially Spain to lose their place in the Calendar. Imho Latvia and Cyprus has nothing to offer. North America is a welcomed addition though and keep WRC out of the desert :)

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EstWRC

28th July 2022, 06:11

I hope that rumor isn’t true, Agree with Cali

We were just talking the other day with friends going to Portugal next year

Fast Eddie WRC

4th August 2022, 12:47

Hyundai set to wait for major WRC car update

Hyundai Motorsport has revealed that major updates to resolve fundamental issues with its i20 N will wait until October at the earliest...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/hyundai-set-to-wait-for-major-wrc-car-update/10348442/

Eli

4th August 2022, 12:53

Fast Eddie WRC

4th August 2022, 14:17

I think Julien Moncet said something along those lines in his interview with Dirtfish last night.

This one ? Its more about their new Finland test base...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-yet-to-fully-utilize-its-finland-test-site/

Eli

4th August 2022, 15:09

This one ? Its more about their new Finland test base...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-yet-to-fully-utilize-its-finland-test-site/

In the hour(+) long video they posted on YT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmHnGybdsNc

When talking to Moncet he said the next time the car has joker part(s) being homologated is the 1st of October.

AndersX

5th August 2022, 01:05

Eli

5th August 2022, 07:07

Latvia is coming, most probably 2024 for 1 or max 2 years. Fast, flowing gravel, check ERC. However, switching EST and Lat would make more sense. Est event looked a bit artificial, in fact. Having Fin as only fast gravel alternative is boring; combining Fin with 1 rally in Baltics makes sense - spectacular speeds, nice pics and videos, good warm up-build up for classical Fin. Makes sense.

Any sources for that?

AnttiL

5th August 2022, 07:10

Spectator guide for Rally Finland also mentioned rumors of Latvia and Cyprus entering the series.

Lead

5th August 2022, 07:13

In Latvia preparations are already going on for round in 2024, so its very likely there is some kind of agreement with promoter already.

Kenneth

5th August 2022, 11:33

I guess there will be 30 rounds in few years

Eli

5th August 2022, 11:34

I guess there will be 30 rounds in few years

With rotational system coming back to include them all ;)

bomber21

5th August 2022, 12:22

This article explains the situation with Cyprus.

https://cyprus-mail.com/2022/07/21/loss-of-cyprus-rally-this-year-unreasonable-and-criminal/

The Cyprus Automobile Association on Thursday branded the finance ministry’s refusal to underwrite the holding of the Cyprus Rally over the next four years at WRC/ERC levels as “unreasonable and criminal”.

But CAA president Antonis Michaelides said the offer from the FIA – the governing body of motor sport — still stood for 2023-2025 and expressed the hope that the government to emerge from the February 2023 elections will reconsider.

Under the proposal, the Cyprus Rally 2023 would be held as part of the MERC (Middle East Rally Championship) or ERC (European Rally Championship) and those of 2024 and 2025 at WRC (World Rally Championship) level.

Michaelides said he also had an informal chat with Disy’s president who told him that “the minister is unpersuadable.”

So, with this government there is NO WAY for a WRC Rally Cyprus. If there is a new government in February 2023, we shall see.

AndyRAC

5th August 2022, 12:37

Latvia, Estonia & Finland....really?? It's nearly as bad as Spain having 3-4 MotoGP rounds......

Eli

5th August 2022, 13:03

AnttiL

5th August 2022, 13:04

Latvia, Estonia & Finland....really?? It's nearly as bad as Spain having 3-4 MotoGP rounds......

Yeah, seems like too much of the same. I like Rally Estonia, I would like it to say. From what I've seen in Rally Liepaja, I don't think it's worth of WRC. Too much like driving on a highway and chicanes

Lead

5th August 2022, 13:58

Yeah, seems like too much of the same. I like Rally Estonia, I would like it to say. From what I've seen in Rally Liepaja, I don't think it's worth of WRC. Too much like driving on a highway and chicanes
There are possible road/stage options to made rally Liepaja an interesting WRC event and they have organization behind that to do so. Im all for Latvia round, but Estonia in a same year seems too much. Rotating both events seems the best choice.

WRCStan

5th August 2022, 23:26

At least stick one in early spring or late autumn and get some weather variety. Liepaja was in winter in the past, so is Sweden under threat? Sure why not. :devil::laugh:

cali

6th August 2022, 05:58

Eli

6th August 2022, 14:26

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loeb-will-contest-acropolis-rally-for-m-sport/

Not much of a surprise really but nice to see him back again.

mknight

6th August 2022, 17:12

PR out right after Breens crash.

Slow gravel is actually the surface where Puma seems best atm, so might work well. Provided none of the reliability issues show up again.

WRCStan

6th August 2022, 17:17

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loeb-will-contest-acropolis-rally-for-m-sport/

Not much of a surprise really but nice to see him back again.

It will could be not a surprise but nice and last.

steve.mandzij

7th August 2022, 05:17

PR out right after Breens crash.

Slow gravel is actually the surface where Puma seems best atm, so might work well. Provided none of the reliability issues show up again.so far, the Puma's best surface is whichever Loeb is driving on..

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pantealex

8th August 2022, 17:29

Latvia, Estonia & Finland....really?? It's nearly as bad as Spain having 3-4 MotoGP rounds......

Right now we have Portugal-Spain-France-(Belgia)-Italy-Croatia and all those countries are linked, there is SEA between Estonia and Finland.

and you forgot Sweden ;)

Eli

8th August 2022, 18:21

Right now we have Portugal-Spain-France-(Belgium)-Italy-Croatia and all those countries are linked, there is SEA between Estonia and Finland.

and you forgot Sweden ;)

Will Belgium stay for next year though?

As for Latvia, I recall someone saying here they're aiming for 2024.

EstWRC

13th August 2022, 06:46

Let the rumors begin…. https://www-rallit-fi.translate.goog/nyt-tarahti-hurja-huhu-ott-tanak-vaihtamassa-tallia-rallin-mm-sarjassa/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=et&_x_tr_pto=wapp

bomber21

13th August 2022, 07:07

A huge risk for his career. Hyundai has problems indeed but one could say M-Sport has more problems :D

Sergiow

13th August 2022, 07:14

Will Belgium stay for next year though?
. I always thought that the future master plan for WRC Belgium was to create one national rally based on combining the 3 biggest regional rallies: Ypres, Condroz and Spa where each region would have 1 day of Special Stages on its own.

dupanton

13th August 2022, 07:17

I always thought that the future master plan for WRC Belgium was to create one national rally based on combining the 3 biggest regional rallies: Ypres, Condroz and Spa where each region would have 1 day of Special Stages on its own.

That has never been a plan...

Eli

13th August 2022, 07:45

Let the rumors begin…. https://www-rallit-fi.translate.goog/nyt-tarahti-hurja-huhu-ott-tanak-vaihtamassa-tallia-rallin-mm-sarjassa/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=et&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Do you think he should stay put at this point and just help them improve the car?

Sergiow

13th August 2022, 08:47

That has never been a plan...

This plan was mentioned once by Yves Matton

"Matton has some objections, however. Just completing chrono rides in Ypres is not enough for the event to bear the Rally of Belgium label. That may seem strange, there are plenty of examples on the World Cup calendar where geographically restricted matches still have a national appearance." https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20210812_97231942

65 % of this plan was already achieved last year with Ypres + Spa. The inclusion of a Condroz day would have greatly reduced the 300 km liaison between Ypres and Spa ... but meanwhile Yves Matton is no longer Rally Director with the FIA, a wind of change is certainly coming from that direction ...

Eli

13th August 2022, 10:39

Let the rumors begin…. https://www-rallit-fi.translate.goog/nyt-tarahti-hurja-huhu-ott-tanak-vaihtamassa-tallia-rallin-mm-sarjassa/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=et&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Do you know if he's going to be there instead of Breen? yes I'm aware they said he has a two year contract but the article doesn't shed much light on that matter.

AnttiL

13th August 2022, 12:05

Do you know if he's going to be there instead of Breen? yes I'm aware they said he has a two year contract but the article doesn't shed much light on that matter.

Know? It’s just rumors about Tänak. But Breen would make a great second driver.

TypeR

13th August 2022, 12:58

In addition to the speculative article..
Tänak didn't say a word about the car or team(thank them) at the end of PS. And nobody (e.g smb from the team) wasn't at the finishline either..)

Vety difficult choice either way.. (Toyota excluded)

Eli

13th August 2022, 13:20

Know? It’s just rumors about Tänak. But Breen would make a great second driver.

I was wondering if he had any knowledge aside from the rumour, and yeah I agree, they could make a good paring for 2023.

mknight

13th August 2022, 22:35

Know? It’s just rumors about Tänak. But Breen would make a great second driver.

Hard to know that. Recently he was 3rd driver and did very well after the first bad rallies and first driver which doesn't work at all (yet?).
You might say he was second on some rounds in 2017-2018 and it mostly didn't work but that was quite special situation.

Anyway before Finland I would totally say Tanak might switch, after Finland I am not so sure. Mostly due to seemingly declining speed at MSport and continuing reliability issues. The front suspension on the Puma also appears rather fragile as it's always the first to go.

A bit like previous Hyundai always lost the rear wheel.

AnttiL

17th August 2022, 07:42

Danny0405

17th August 2022, 12:58

https://www.rallit.fi/saako-esapekka-lappi-jatkaa-toyotalla-jari-matti-latvalalta-suora-vastaus/

First of all the article states that Rovanperä and Evans likely continue at Toyota for 2023, but then we have interesting comments from Latvala

- Ogier has said he wants to do Monte Carlo, but nothing is agreed upon yet
- There could still be two drivers in the third car
- Latvala would like Katsuta to continue in a fourth car but says the decision is made in Japan
- Latvala doesn't want to change the drivers at all but says it's about the budget and whether they can afford more drivers and four cars. "There's no reason to change drivers but this is depending on many factors"

To me it sounds like there won't be a fourth car and maybe pressure to put Taka into the third car with half season. This could be in line with Taka's comments in Rally Finland, saying "I don't know if I drive here next year"

Yeah, clearly, there is probably some pressure from Japan to promote Katsuta in 3rd car, I was surprised his name was not evoked in the summer last year but, anyway, his bad streak justified to keep him in 4th car and the new regulation justified also to deal with experienced drivers in the main team.
Now, he is quite regular even if a bit slow and it will be complicated for Latvala to resist to Japanese pressure, all the more with Lappi doing an average season so far. The main question mark with Katsuta is pure tarmac where he is really weak (not talking about Mickey Mouse stages or Monza circuit stages) but if the rumors about calendar are true, it will reduce the issue (all the more if Ogier does Monte Carlo). Maybe they could also keep Lappi as a specialist for Sweden/Estonia/Finland (would also help Katsuta to have better road positions for gravel by missing 3/4 events).

However, I would be really disappointed by Toyota if they do not have a 4th car for at least the European rounds with a 5-6 rally program for a youngster such as Rossel or Lindholm (and 2/3 rounds for Ogier eventually). I’ve no issue with them having a car mainly driven by a Japanese as long as it is compensated by giving some chance to another deserving youngster. Not really a behavior to develop rally as Toyoda is promoting.

EstWRC

17th August 2022, 13:28

sadly it seems there wont be any silly season at all for 2023, everything seems to remain the same

Danny0405

17th August 2022, 13:40

sadly it seems there wont be any silly season at all for 2023, everything seems to remain the same

No changes for the big names to be precisebut not a real surprise:
- the big 4 has a contract for next year
- M-Sport has not really proven to be an efficient solution against Hyundai or Toyota (reliability issue and, without support, they cannot keep up in terms of development so Neuville and Tanak are forced to stay in Hyundai

Then, for Toyota, with Katsuta, Lappi or Ogier, it’s clearly enough to find a solution for the 3rd car so logical to make with them (not talking about 4th car).
And for M-Sport, they have invested in Breen by making the full-year with him; would be a non-sense to fire him for next year IMO.

But then, there could be some changes for the Hyundai 3rd car and also in M-Sport line-up because clearly, neither Solberg nor Fourmaux are convincing and Loubet is not that good.
Could help some guys like Mikkelsen or Suninen to come back or a guy like Rossel, Lindholm or Huttunen (depending on the money) finding a seat.

And if Lappi has not a safe seat in Toyota for next year, why not seeing Hyundai trying to hire him.

1988senna

17th August 2022, 14:01

No changes for the big names to be precisebut not a real surprise:
- the big 4 has a contract for next year
- M-Sport has not really proven to be an efficient solution against Hyundai or Toyota (reliability issue and, without support, they cannot keep up in terms of development so Neuville and Tanak are forced to stay in Hyundai

Then, for Toyota, with Katsuta, Lappi or Ogier, it’s clearly enough to find a solution for the 3rd car so logical to make with them (not talking about 4th car).
And for M-Sport, they have invested in Breen by making the full-year with him; would be a non-sense to fire him for next year IMO.

But then, there could be some changes for the Hyundai 3rd car and also in M-Sport line-up because clearly, neither Solberg nor Fourmaux are convincing and Loubet is not that good.
Could help some guys like Mikkelsen or Suninen to come back or a guy like Rossel, Lindholm or Huttunen (depending on the money) finding a seat.

And if Lappi has not a safe seat in Toyota for next year, why not seeing Hyundai trying to hire him.
why you confirm tanak have the contract for 2023 ，

EstWRC

17th August 2022, 14:11

why you confirm tanak have the contract for 2023 ，

you have other info?

flat_right

17th August 2022, 14:21

why you confirm tanak have the contract for 2023 ，

When Ott and Thierry signed the new contracts in 2021, which for both were announced at the same time, Hyundai's press release said that they "have put pen to paper to sign extended multi-year contracts". So was it 2+1 or 3(+), it was definitely more than just the 2022 season.

wyler

17th August 2022, 15:06

However, I would be really disappointed by Toyota if they do not have a 4th car for at least the European rounds with a 5-6 rally program for a youngster such as Rossel or Lindholm (and 2/3 rounds for Ogier eventually). I’ve no issue with them having a car mainly driven by a Japanese as long as it is compensated by giving some chance to another deserving youngster. Not really a behavior to develop rally as Toyoda is promoting.

Also they are developing japanise youngsters in european rallies, hard to believe one will not land in the 4th car someday. don't think as soon as next season, but this will keep the second team alive imo.

Sergiow

17th August 2022, 15:51

Also they are developing japanise youngsters in european rallies, hard to believe one will not land in the 4th car someday. don't think as soon as next season, but this will keep the second team alive imo.

That is interesting. Do you have some names of those japanise youngsters?
And what about Sami Pajari, he clearly is the next big thing coming of the current WRC2-3 youngsters

AnttiL

17th August 2022, 16:10

https://www.ewrc-results.com/final/78938-varaosaexpert-ralli-2022/

Yuki Yamamoto, Nao Otake and Hikaru Kogure. They all competed in this local rally last weekend and did pretty well! However, it's a long program and they are still only in FWD Rally4 cars. I would say they will have a year of Rally3 and hopefully two years of Rally2 before going up to Rally1.

Sami Pajari had an incredible run in Rally Finland, except for breaking the suspension on Saturday. But on Sunday in super rally he was the fastest driver of the day although Suninen and Lindholm were still battling for the win.

mknight

17th August 2022, 16:11

Katsuta is a consistent point scorer this year so I can see him driving 3rd car.

Hyundai 3rd car is the main open question, especially if Sordo really retires.

Danny0405

17th August 2022, 16:22

Also they are developing japanise youngsters in european rallies, hard to believe one will not land in the 4th car someday. don't think as soon as next season, but this will keep the second team alive imo.

I know about the 3 young Japanese but no way we can see him in a Rally1 WRC drive before at least 2025 and more probably 2026 (they are only competing in Rally4 so far in some Finnish events, probably some Rally3 or 2 next year).
It lets at least 2 years where they can use the 4th car for other youngsters.
For Pajari, it is probably a bit early, at least one full-year in Rally2 (we can imagine 4 rounds with M-Sport if he wins J-WRC and then, the rest of European rallies with Toksport ... except if M-Sport makes him a big «*offer*» to keep him).

AnttiL

17th August 2022, 16:29

Yes, too early for Pajari, he has only started three rounds in Rally2, and only two of them in WRC(2). So he needs the experience anyway. But I would say he's the next new top class talent. For example Lindholm seems to have hit a some sort of plateau.

Out of current WR2C talents who hasn't yet been a top class driver, Huttunen is closest to being the real deal. Of course there's guys like Mikkelsen and Suninen who have already been there.

mknight

17th August 2022, 16:44

Did you forget Rossel?

His problem might be that Fourmaux and Loubet are likely competiting for lot of the same funding.

Danny0405

17th August 2022, 17:20

Did you forget Rossel?

His problem might be that Fourmaux and Loubet are likely competiting for lot of the same funding.

For me, Rossel is in the game with Lindholm and Huttunen if a young driver (with no Top-class experience I mean, excluding Huttunen’s outing in Finland) has to be promoted but he has multiple issues against him:
- as you said, clearly, there is the funding issue with multiple aspects: the fact that he is a Stellantis guy so he will not benefit from a manufacturer help for Rally1 + as you said, the potential conflicts with Loubet and Fourmaux to find fundings (such as FFSA help=French Federation) even if these two guys for the moment (especially Fourmaux) won’t benefit from their season. The only positive point for him is that he has Yacco’s help this year (former main sponsor of Fourmaux which helped him to step in RC1) whereas he was really short some years in the past. But, yeah, FFSA’s help will be probably critical next year for a Frenchman to stay one way or another (full-time or part-time) in M-Sport main team and probably the FFSA will have to make a choice between the 3 guys.
- if rumors about the calendar is correct with less tarmac and even if he has improved on technical gravel, he will be clearly a disadvantage for him against his competitors like Loubet, Lindholm or Huttunen.
- between him and Lindholm, there is not a big gap and they sound a step behind Mikkelsen (with Huttunen not that far also and sounds more easy on funding). So he is not a no-brainer choice.

Still I really hope he could have an opportunity.

mknight

17th August 2022, 17:40

Well I don't think any new young driver has a big chance of anything but a start or two next year.

The current Rally1 lineups are kind of over-saturated with "fresh" drivers. Even though most of them don't deliver it is either too early for them to be replaced and/or there are other reasons keeping them there. (money for Greensmith for example).

Sadly for Huttunen he kinda falls between rock and a hard place again. Gotta say he has some really bad luck with timing in his career.

AnttiL

17th August 2022, 18:33

I want to see Rossel do well on a fast gravel or snow event before giving him the credit as a proper talent.

mknight

17th August 2022, 18:37

I want to see Rossel do well on a fast gravel or snow event before giving him the credit as a proper talent.

Good point.
I see he only did Estonia in 2020 with terrible speed.

Danny0405

17th August 2022, 19:00

I want to see Rossel do well on a fast gravel or snow event before giving him the credit as a proper talent.

Don’t agree on the fact that fast gravel/snow rally is evaluating raw talent. I don’t say these rallies worth nothing but don’t forget it represents only 3 rallies in the season, even looking on the long-term (with Poland at one time) which is less than tarmac or technical gravel. Always found these rallies overrated in terms of evaluation, rally is properly about multiple grounds
Sordo did a good career without never been good there. I prefer that than a Lappi or Paddon or Breen career

AnttiL

17th August 2022, 19:47

Don’t agree on the fact that fast gravel/snow rally is evaluating raw talent. I don’t say these rallies worth nothing but don’t forget it represents only 3 rallies in the season, even looking on the long-term (with Poland at one time) which is less than tarmac or technical gravel. Always found these rallies overrated in terms of evaluation, rally is properly about multiple grounds
Sordo did a good career without never been good there. I prefer that than a Lappi or Paddon or Breen career

No, I would say the same if there would be a driver who wins on fast and slow gravel but has no results on tarmac. A champion contender must be good everywhere.

wyler

17th August 2022, 20:43

No, I would say the same if there would be a driver who wins on fast and slow gravel but has no results on tarmac. A champion contender must be good everywhere.

true, just think about neuville...

wyler

17th August 2022, 20:45

I know about the 3 young Japanese but no way we can see him in a Rally1 WRC drive before at least 2025 and more probably 2026 (they are only competing in Rally4 so far in some Finnish events, probably some Rally3 or 2 next year).
It lets at least 2 years where they can use the 4th car for other youngsters.
For Pajari, it is probably a bit early, at least one full-year in Rally2 (we can imagine 4 rounds with M-Sport if he wins J-WRC and then, the rest of European rallies with Toksport ... except if M-Sport makes him a big «*offer*» to keep him).

indeed, just saying i would find strange if they ditch the second team (they even had a 5th bay in the service park this year)

Danny0405

18th August 2022, 01:58

No, I would say the same if there would be a driver who wins on fast and slow gravel but has no results on tarmac. A champion contender must be good everywhere.

Ok, my mistake, I misunderstood your sentence

However, even if I hope I’m wrong, I don’t think any driver of the 94-98 WRC-2 generation (Rossel, Lindholm, Ingram, Gryazin, Huttunen or even Ciamin) to be championship-material driver; more see them at best a career such as Latvala or maybe more Sordo.
And the same for Fourmaux or Loubet (a bit more questionable about Solberg with the Hyundai context).
All the more with Kalle already at this level a lot above them.
However, it does not mean it’s useless for a team to try a driver like this; 3 members of the Big 4 will be 34+ at the end of the year and Breen is not that young considering his performance. So we can imagine big changes around 2024-2025 and having anticipated by giving some experience to a young guy could be an advantage.

AnttiL

18th August 2022, 05:48

true, just think about neuville...

Neuville has won Rally Sweden and Rally Poland, although for some reason he hasn't done that well in Finland and Estonia in the recent years.

AnttiL

18th August 2022, 05:48

indeed, just saying i would find strange if they ditch the second team (they even had a 5th bay in the service park this year)

True, they have slots for five cars in the service park, but I have assumed it has been for a future customer car...

Eli

18th August 2022, 06:42

Neuville has won Rally Sweden and Rally Poland, although for some reason he hasn't done that well in Finland and Estonia in the recent years.

If you look back at his wins, when was the last time he won on gravel?

AnttiL

18th August 2022, 06:48

If you look back at his wins, when was the last time he won on gravel?

Argentina 2019. Good point. No wins after the Chile crash...

But during 14 months from Argentina 2017 to Sardinia 2018 he won five gravel rallies and Sweden.

EstWRC

18th August 2022, 07:06

Argentina 2019. Good point. No wins after the Chile crash...

But during 14 months from Argentina 2017 to Sardinia 2018 he won five gravel rallies and Sweden.

Wow, didn’t even think about this. That’s a long gap from last gravel win

But then again, Tänaks last tarmac win is also from 2019, Germany

Maybe it will change this week? Who knows

AnttiL

18th August 2022, 07:12

And Evans is yet to win a tarmac round at all (was close in Corsica 2019)

JLunen

18th August 2022, 08:08

And Evans is yet to win a tarmac round at all (was close in Corsica 2019)

And Croatia 2021.

wyler

18th August 2022, 09:15

Neuville has won Rally Sweden and Rally Poland, although for some reason he hasn't done that well in Finland and Estonia in the recent years.

yep, i should have elaborate more. I'm not saying is generally bad in that surface, just that a little lack in some surface made huge difference between winner/runner up for the championship. of course every driver has strong and weak rallies, but if one has an average non-top3 rally somewhere is already a big deficit (championship wise)

wyler

18th August 2022, 09:16

True, they have slots for five cars in the service park, but I have assumed it has been for a future customer car...

yes, me too, but still related to keeping a second team, i assume.

Eli

18th August 2022, 11:54

Wow, didn’t even think about this. That’s a long gap from last gravel win

But then again, Tänak's last tarmac win is also from 2019, Germany

Maybe it will change this week? Who knows

Difference being, Neuville was in the same car (team) until Monte-Carlo this year, Tänak switched from a tarmac killer to...a Hyundai that for now at least, is only capable winning on tarmac with Neuville at the wheel, even the GOAT didn't get any wins in it during his period, yet managed to land a win with both the C3 & the Puma...not on pure asphalt events, but still.

ictus

18th August 2022, 18:31

even the GOAT didn't get any wins in it during his period
better check your facts...

Eli

18th August 2022, 18:44

better check your facts...

I'm sorry did I miss something? Did Loeb won with the i20 anything? Besides being on the podium in Chile 2019 & Turkey 2020, did Loeb win anything with the i20 Coupe on Gravel? let alone Tarmac?

AnttiL

18th August 2022, 19:35

I'm sorry did I miss something? Did Loeb won with the i20 anything? Besides being on the podium in Chile 2019 & Turkey 2020, did Loeb win anything with the i20 Coupe on Gravel? let alone Tarmac?

Rallye Vosges, Rally di Alba, Rallye Ciudad de Granada and Rallye du Var :D

Also stage wins in WRC events:

C3 WRC - 9 stage wins / 3 rallies
i20 WRC - 10 stage wins / 8 rallies
Puma Rally1 - 10 stage wins / 3 rallies

Eli

18th August 2022, 20:11

Rallye Vosges, Rally di Alba, Rallye Ciudad de Granada and Rallye du Var :D

Also stage wins in WRC events:

C3 WRC - 9 stage wins / 3 rallies
i20 WRC - 10 stage wins / 8 rallies
Puma Rally1 - 10 stage wins / 3 rallies

I meant in the WRC, but yeah I see your point lol.

Sergiow

20th August 2022, 17:03

Latvala: "Our 2023 line-ups are not finalized yet"

As in F1, there is always a game of bluff in the WRC transfer window. And clauses sometimes making it possible to get rid of existing contracts. We know that Ford is looking for a top driver because its 2022 line-up is proving to be a bit "light", Hyundai claims that Ott Tanak's contract goes beyond three years and wants to keep the Estonian who in the end would probably be better than at Toyota where he no longer got along with boss Tommi Makinen at the time.

Like the manager of Thierry Neuville who, according to a very good source, had grilled himself at Toy by landing with too high claims, Marko Martin, the manager of Tanak had typed too high. But after filling his pockets for three years, the 2019 champion might want to face Rovanpera on equal terms. But is there still a place among the Japanese? Are the contracts of Elfyn Evans, a little disappointing this year, and Esapekka Lappi concrete? We put the question to Jari-Matti Latvala, Toyota's sporting director in rallying.

Is there still a spare seat at Toyota for 2023? "Our line-up for next year is not yet fully defined. We are still working on it," admitted the Finn very frankly. Are we therefore going to witness an unexpected transfer as with Fernando Alonso who left suddenly for Aston Martin when everyone expected to see him stay with Alpine? Can Ott Tanak or even Thierry Neuville create a surprise by joining the opposing camp? It's unlikely but probably not impossible. Apart from these two, Toyota has no interest in looking elsewhere. On the other hand, we must be worried about Adrien Fourmaux or even Craig Breen. Because we honestly wonder if Andreas Mikkelsen or Stéphane Lefèbvre wouldn't do a better job at the wheel of the Puma...

https://www.dhnet.be/sports/moteurs/wrc/2022/08/20/wrc-ypres-latvala-nos-equipages-2023-ne-sont-pas-encore-finalises-QD263J5FNVDNZIN7RXO3BMTSGQ/

mknight

21st August 2022, 14:59

I think Japanese (Toyoda) might still be a bit pissed off at Tanak for the way he left so they will put a foot down if Latvala proposes it.

bandit12

21st August 2022, 15:03

I think Japanese (Toyoda) might still be a bit pissed off at Tanak for the way he left so they will put a foot down if Latvala proposes it.
Yes. Japanese culture is a bit different thing.

TypeR

21st August 2022, 17:04

I think Japanese (Toyoda) might still be a bit pissed off at Tanak for the way he left so they will put a foot down if Latvala proposes it.

Yes. Japanese culture is a bit different thing.
Tänak brought Toyota WDC and showed incredible speed of the car. He had/has good relationship w Toyoda.
Only one to blame and point fingers to Tänak's move to Hyundai is Mäkinen at that time(or his other ,,problematic'' side) and lack if enthusiasm? then to offer him proper deal.
Mäkinen/his wife/team was sacked year later and basically nothing heard of him after that..

mknight

21st August 2022, 17:09

Toyodas official communication immediatelly after Spain 2019 and before Australia 2019 seemed to show he was upset with Tanak and I keep hearing Japanese are big on loyalty. Then Australia didn't happen so Toyota couldn't win manu title (if Tanak helped them there sure it would help).

"Rally Hokkaido" here is likely the best to comment on the topic (if he can).

Eli

21st August 2022, 17:11

Wow, didn’t even think about this. That’s a long gap from last gravel win

But then again, Tänaks last tarmac win is also from 2019, Germany

Maybe it will change this week? Who knows

It did!! Finally, we should always have this chat before the rally ;)

Danny0405

21st August 2022, 17:24

Tänak brought Toyota WDC and showed incredible speed of the car. He had/has good relationship w Toyoda.
Only one to blame and point fingers to Tänak's move to Hyundai is Mäkinen at that time(or his other ,,problematic'' side) and lack if enthusiasm? then to offer him proper deal.
Mäkinen/his wife/team was sacked year later and basically nothing heard of him after that..

Well, Makinen is the guy who built this Toyota team with a flexible structure and makes them able to win 2 championships in 3 years without Ogier (1st brand since 2008 to win a championship without one Seb).
And clearly at that time, it was not a VW-type structure, it was a more flexible one even if he had the money.
And in the end, even if Tanak’s stint with Hyundai is not awful, the result is not too bad for Toyota :) (remember also that Rovanpera was a clear Makinen’s choice even before Tanak’s exit)

I Don’t say Makinen has no flaw but you don’t do this with a certain personality. And in the end, Toyota doesn’t have really to complain about Makinen’s job; it’s more Tanak who could think about what could have happened if he had stayed in Toyota.

And to come back on the topic, I don’t really see the point for Toyota to sign Tanak; ok, he is a competitor but they have the potential next big thing with Rovanpera; why would they mess up with him for a 35-yo guy? (Reminds me about the Loeb-Ogier 2011 feud where, in the end, Citroen lost everything by firing Ogier who kick their asses during 6 years and then ashamed them by forcing their exit).

Päss1928

21st August 2022, 17:34

Let's get all rumours out then, here's another one. Mäkinen wanted a part of Ott's salary to himself.

TypeR

21st August 2022, 17:35

Was checking the points table and realised that Rovanperä has won 6 out of 9 Powerstages = 30 extra points..
That's massive, how much PS means through the season..

tcrown

21st August 2022, 18:10

Let's get all rumours out then, here's another one. Mäkinen wanted a part of Ott's salary to himself.

Makinens friends and close associates provided parts to Toyota, allowing Makinen to get parts cheaper and allowing his companions to have access to the unlimited Japanese money. This all was the main cause for Toyotas reliability issues and played a big part in Tanaks departure. Ie 2019 Sardegna

EstWRC

21st August 2022, 18:14

Makinens friends and close associates provided parts to Toyota, allowing Makinen to get parts cheaper and allowing his companions to have access to the unlimited Japanese money. This all was the main cause for Toyotas reliability issues and played a big part in Tanaks departure. Ie 2019 Sardegna

Correct

I had the same info

But be ready to be laughed out by some here

WRCStan

21st August 2022, 18:20

tr4m

21st August 2022, 18:21

I think Japanese (Toyoda) might still be a bit pissed off at Tanak for the way he left so they will put a foot down if Latvala proposes it.

Based on latest press release (https://toyotagazooracing.com/wrc/release/2022/rd09-day3/), seems like they're on okay terms to me.

P.S. to Ott
Congratulations on your victory! I sent a message to you in December 2019 saying “let’s meet on the podium again and I will spray champagne at you”. It didn’t come true in Belgium, so it must happen in Japan for sure!”

TypeR

21st August 2022, 18:27

cali

21st August 2022, 18:31

Oh I thought this was a game. I'm not laughing this off but will ask - if Makinen had unlimited Yen, why is he going for cheaper parts? Tell the associates to source the best parts and name the price.At that time he could cash more from Japan and use cheaper parts which usually generates you more profit. Remember, TGR and TMR were separate companies and TMR made huge profits year by year. Some of the profits were even moved to Estonia bcs of cheaper taxes and that's why they moved some of the operations close to Tallinn.

When japanese took over Tallinn got immediate boot.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

WRCStan

21st August 2022, 18:38

If him being an idiot is the point being made, fair enough!

cali

21st August 2022, 18:51

It's even not the point to make but reality.
Tänak on the other hand was pushing more and quite rudely sometimes. That's what I've heard as well.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

Eli

21st August 2022, 18:57

It's even not the point to make but reality.
Tänak on the other hand was pushing more and quite rudely sometimes. That's what I've heard as well.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

Pushing more what? For more salary?

TypeR

21st August 2022, 19:06

Pushing more what? For more salary?
More lik quality and endurance..

For more salary he(and everybody else) can push after winning WDC..

tcrown

21st August 2022, 19:21

If him being an idiot is the point being made, fair enough!

One thing you also need to realize is that Tommi didnt act alone in this team. Actually most of the decisions were done by his wife and Tommi was sometimes just a face of the company and the RT. It’s been publicly known for many years that Lappis departure from Toyota was because of some hard disagreements with Mia.

cali

21st August 2022, 19:21

Pushing more what? For more salary?Development, quality, performance, endurance etc

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

mknight

21st August 2022, 19:42

Based on latest press release (https://toyotagazooracing.com/wrc/release/2022/rd09-day3/), seems like they're on okay terms to me.

Yes, didn't remember that one.

Then maybe there is a chance for Tanak at Toyota.

Though I agree with what was said about Toyota not needing Tanak. Risks Rovanpera's position and kinda destroys the competition (something Latvala and I think Toyoda also talked about).

The big question is if Evans wants to leave, that would open the door.

tr4m

21st August 2022, 20:41

The big question is if Evans wants to leave, that would open the door.

Why would he leave? Who's going to match his salary or provide a better car?

WRC1

22nd August 2022, 05:12

Why would he leave? Who's going to match his salary or provide a better car?

i dont think that money is NOT the main thing these guys searching for, they want success....and Evens knows with Kalle in same car he has to wait until Kalle gets a problem....Puma is far better car than it seems at the moment, they just have no driver (except Loeb)

Evans in Puma could show what is possible...

tr4m

22nd August 2022, 06:04

...Puma is far better car than it seems at the moment...

Key word is at the moment. No disrespect to M-Sport, but they have the car to be in only for the beginning of new regulations After that, budget constraints will hamper their development capabilities and the car will fall behind. We've all seen it. So while it's true, Evans might be capable of displaying better results in Puma right now (although, I don't necessarily agree), leaving the team for a car that you know will falter makes no sense. And again, I don't want to bash on M-Sport, because they have yet again come out with a powerful and capable car. It's just the unfortunate position they are in.

mknight

22nd August 2022, 09:12

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-the-wrc-class-clown-became-the-star-pupil/

"Ypres showed it was a true drivers’ rally, catching out the two obvious favorites for victory. It demonstrated too that M-Sport team principal Richard Millener was right when he said throwing money at marginal technical gains wasn’t an effective strategy".

At the same time he also said after Fourmaux crash that some partners might stop supporting them if the results don't come. That's something we have discussed even before this season. How happy Ford (and others) will be when the new (costly) car gets driven around (mostly) by paydrivers for profit rather than results.
Case in point - Finland. 5 Pumas, one had some hope for podium before the rally.

Note what Hyundai did before this season. Mid last year they (Adamo at that time) said it openly that their job in WRC is to win championships, so they stopped Loubet/Veiby/Solans drives and focused on that. Sure MSports business is something else, but if the goals become very different than Ford or others (Redbull??) it can obviously be a problem.

ouvreur

22nd August 2022, 09:56

Note what Hyundai did before this season. Mid last year they (Adamo at that time) said it openly that their job in WRC is to win championships, so they stopped Loubet/Veiby/Solans drives and focused on that. Sure MSports business is something else, but if the goals become very different than Ford or others (Redbull??) it can obviously be a problem.

A little OT, but do you really think Adamo did that voluntarily?

All those extra little programs using WRC cars, run by semi-private teams, only started when he took over as TP. Same with the sale of i20 Coupe WRC chassis. The 'job' of winning championships didn't suddenly start in 2021...