Rally1 hybrid cars (2022-)

[WRCStan]

There has been comments from drivers about the switch to "stick shift" and the potential to damage the gearbox. As far as I undrstand, they will still be running a sequentiel dogbox, and only got rid of a fairly "simple" hydraulic system to actuate the gearbox. If my understanding of the regulations is correct, how would that be a significant cost saving like the FIA claims and how would one be able to damage the gearbox any more than with a paddle actuated gearbox?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mbCJecCDr8

Apparently, removing the active centre diff and paddle shifter allows to remove the hydraulic system which saves money.

[Mirek]

There has been comments from drivers about the switch to "stick shift" and the potential to damage the gearbox. As far as I undrstand, they will still be running a sequentiel dogbox, and only got rid of a fairly "simple" hydraulic system to actuate the gearbox. If my understanding of the regulations is correct, how would that be a significant cost saving like the FIA claims and how would one be able to damage the gearbox any more than with a paddle actuated gearbox?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mbCJecCDr8

Apparently, removing the active centre diff and paddle shifter allows to remove the hydraulic system which saves money.

That's true but it also removes the possibility to control the shifting by the ECU. Honestly I have no idea how the WRC gearshift system was designed but I would expect that indirect shifting by the hydraulics can be set that it prevents shifting which would set the revolution speed outside of the safe range. With direct mechanical lever it is not possible. In the end the effect on the reliability may be worse than saving created by not using the hydraulics.

Damage from improper shifting used to be quite common with the S2000 cars where improper downshifting was really an easy mistake. I recall situations when RPM in the range of 10-11 thousand was achieved by mistake and it often lead to catastrophic damage.

[Mirek]

Wrcwings says:
f) the recuperation by braking is limited to 30kW, no matter how hard a driver brakes,


https://www.wrcwings.tech/2021/09/14/2022-rally1-cars-hybrid-system-operation-aero-implications/

I expected a lot more to be honest. That means that the braking effect will be also really small. For proper racing braking you need values 10x higher or more I guess.

[Ricardo Filipe Matos]

Any new brand for 2023?

[bandit12]

Any new brand for 2023?
Dacia

[Mirek]

I expected a lot more to be honest. That means that the braking effect will be also really small. For proper racing braking you need values 10x higher or more I guess.

After some discussions on this topic I realized that the total capacity of the battery is what limits the recuperation power to a relativerly low value like this.

[WRCStan]

Looking at kinetic energy values, 10x appears only really useful at high speeds at realistic efficiencies, stages where you won't be needing the boost so much anyway.

[Mirek]

Looking at kinetic energy values, 10x appears only really useful at high speeds at realistic efficiencies, stages where you won't be needing the boost so much anyway.

I think you undersestimate the deceleration value a lot. Let's say you need to slow down the Rally1 car from 150 km/h to 100 km/h on asphalt (from 42 m/s to 28 m/s). The car has around 1400 kg with the crew. The kinetic energy at the start of braking is 1,235 GJ. The kinetic energy at the end is 0,549 GJ. You need to take away 0,686 GJ of energy. Now the crucial part is how fast you do that. Let's say it happens at an average value of 2G which is for sure possible, I guess it's more in good conditions but on the other hand a reasonable part of the braking energy is taken away by aerodynamic drag and I completely omit that here. If we stick with these values it means that it takes 0,7 seconds to slow down from 150 km/h to 100 km/h. 0,686GJ at 0,7 seconds means 970 kW braking power.

For sure it's just a very simplified example but I guess it can make an idea about the magnitude of the values.

[WRCStan]

I think you undersestimate the deceleration value a lot.

I get what you're saying and it's also exponential, there's just as much packed in 185 to 175 as there is from 60 to 0. I was coming from the angle that what tech they have is to give acceleration boosts and that it's not an EV in a game of charging batteries. My theory is you won't be calling for a boost that often on the Finlands, Arctics, Estonias, however you'll want them repeatedly in the slower twistier stages where the 30kW limit becomes proportionally more of what is possible to recover. The limit is not my choice it's what we have.

Anyway, here's a magical thought given the limit. The slower drivers may get more boost juice back then the faster drivers. Wouldn't count on noticing it though.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Will the driver notice a big difference in feeling when braking the Rally1's with the regen slowing the car more than the brakes ? Also how does the handbrake act on on the new cars in terms of brakes or regen ?

[AnttiL]

https://www.mtvuutiset.fi/artikkeli/asiantuntijaksi-hyppavalta-teemu-suniselta-mehukas-arvio-mm-rallikauden-kynnyksella-rovanperan-kallen-haluan-nimeta/8331496#gs.mnr39v

Suninen says here that the wheels should not lock in order to regenerate energy. So likely handbrake will not help either.

[WRCStan]

Will the driver notice a big difference in feeling when braking the Rally1's with the regen slowing the car more than the brakes ? Also how does the handbrake act on on the new cars in terms of brakes or regen ?

It only works under the foot brake so you'll get it alongside the friction brakes which are still doing the overwhelming portion of the work. There is also 3 regen maps to set where they want it to fit around the brakes through the brake pedal, I'm not sure what scenarios they have in mind. My instinct is they won't notice any difference. Braking is braking, it's only whether that tiny portion is there one time and not the next that could throw them.

Handbrake doesn't change unless you are somehow using it to slow the car instead of using the footbrake and denying the regen process. The wheels need to be turning so locking up and slowing with tyre/road friction is no good either as Teemu says in Antti's link.

[kubiczech]

After some discussions on this topic I realized that the total capacity of the battery is what limits the recuperation power to a relativerly low value like this.

Maybe the safety is also factor in this. When similar system in F1 car fails (it still happens, after 7 years of development), result is driver cannot stop the car where he anticipated, sometimes resulting in crash even on supersafe circuit. I guess i would not want to suddenly loose all my rear brakes, because of software glitch, on downhill braking from 150kmh somewhere on Col de Turini. When regen system fails and you loose only 30kw of braking power, you should be able to stop the car.

(i think F1 is regenerating max 120kw when braking, but i might be wrong)

[Mirek]

Maybe the safety is also factor in this. When similar system in F1 car fails (it still happens, after 7 years of development), result is driver cannot stop the car where he anticipated, sometimes resulting in crash even on supersafe circuit. I guess i would not want to suddenly loose all my rear brakes, because of software glitch, on downhill braking from 150kmh somewhere on Col de Turini. When regen system fails and you loose only 30kw of braking power, you should be able to stop the car.

(i think F1 is regenerating max 120kw when braking, but i might be wrong)

I understood that the main issue was overcharging of the battery. It can be charged and drained only up to certain current values depending on its capacity. Some circuit cars use supercaps instead of batteries to remove this limitation but those are useless for cruising on the road section.

You might have a point with the safety factor too.

[traxx]

It seems that hybrid boost allowed by stage for Monte is between 100 and 150 kj, so less than 1,5s for each boost after a regen ? (and if enough energy is available)

[becher]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mbCJecCDr8

Apparently, removing the active centre diff and paddle shifter allows to remove the hydraulic system which saves money.

That would save some development costs for sure.

[becher]

That's true but it also removes the possibility to control the shifting by the ECU. Honestly I have no idea how the WRC gearshift system was designed but I would expect that indirect shifting by the hydraulics can be set that it prevents shifting which would set the revolution speed outside of the safe range. With direct mechanical lever it is not possible. In the end the effect on the reliability may be worse than saving created by not using the hydraulics.

Damage from improper shifting used to be quite common with the S2000 cars where improper downshifting was really an easy mistake. I recall situations when RPM in the range of 10-11 thousand was achieved by mistake and it often lead to catastrophic damage.

Hmm yes, that makes sense. They won't be able to play with the ECU to improve shifting any more either i would guess.

[Tom K]

After making some "research" and puting together a bit scattered info, I would say that the strategic side of hybrid era and drivers' part of job is not where to deploy the energy, but where not to regenerate it...

In other words. After initial boost at the start, the regen counter will be zero. On the first braking driver can regenerate and if the regen is valid some portion of this energy is available (and used) after corner when car accelerates (because driver does not have any boost button, and hybrid is "on" during whole stage). And situation repeats until the energy limit of boost is reached - for example stage no 2 - 100 kJ.

So, the strategic side: If team decides, that the best option is to have 100 kJ available in one long straight in the middle of the stage, then the will would be not use it earlier (for example in slow twisty section when acceleration from ECU is enough). As driver cannot turn on/turn off this boost, he should try not to regenerate energy up to chosen section before long straight mentioned before.

Am I (at least a bit) right?

[WRCStan]

After making some "research" and puting together a bit scattered info, I would say that the strategic side of hybrid era and drivers' part of job is not where to deploy the energy, but where not to regenerate it...

In other words. After initial boost at the start, the regen counter will be zero. On the first breaking driver can regenerate and if the regen is valid some portion of this energy is available (and used) after corner when car accelerates (because driver does not have any boost button, and hybrid is "on" during whole stage). And situation repeats until the energy limit of boost is reached - for example stage no 2 - 100 kJ.

So, the strategic side: If team decides, that the best option is to have 100 kJ available in one long straight in the middle of the stage, then the will would be not use it earlier (for example in slow twisty section when acceleration from ECU is enough). As driver cannot turn on/turn off this boost, he should try not to regenerate energy up to chosen section before long straight mentioned before.

Am I (at least a bit) right?

Hybrid deployment is in the boost or not at all. I've heard several people saying it is on all the time, but I've taken it to be their way of saying there are no buttons to press to activate anything. After each valid regen you get the boost immediately which you can lose by braking, this may happen on twisty bits. Although then you'd get another boost from 1 second of reasonable braking.

They don't have to regenerate 100kj to get 100kj boost, in Monte SS2 they will use maximum 100kj under acceleration boost, then regenerate minimum 30kj by braking, then repeat this to the end of the stage. In general the battery should deplete across the stage. Realistically I don't think you could plan or would want to have it available in a particular place.

[Tom K]

As I expected, one "question-answer" pair will induce another one. This 100 kJ is the maximum of the each boost available after each valid regen (min 30 kJ) or it is sum of energy which can be used during whole stage, so all boosts on SS2 should give sum of energy equal 100 kJ? I thought the later is true, but now the former sounds reasonable...
Thank you

[traxx]

As I expected, one "question-answer" pair will induce another one. This 100 kJ is the maximum of the each boost available after each valid regen (min 30 kJ) or it is sum of energy which can be used during whole stage, so all boosts on SS2 should give sum of energy equal 100 kJ? I thought the later is true, but now the former sounds reasonable...
Thank you

It's for each boost between valid regen, so for SS2, it's 100kj for each boost when the pedal gas is enough (depending of the selected the boost mapping, 3 are available) after a valid regen (depending of the selected regen mapping, 3 are available) and enough energy level.

[Tom K]

Many thanks. One more thing. I have an impression that braking with 30 kJ regen is more about triggering the boost rather than actual regen the battery.

Fowler from Toyota: "So in effect, the energy that you deploy should be such an amount that if you deploy on every section through the stage you equal your battery capacity at the end.

“It’s an energy-based strategy where you start with a full battery, you regenerate a certain amount and you deploy more than you regenerate and at the end your battery is finished.

I also read sth from M-Sport that SOC (state of charge) of battery at the start will be 80 % (confirmed in Monte biuletin). At the finish they want battery to have 30%.

We have lenght of the stage - SS2 - 23,25 km. We have maximum value of each boost - 100 kJ. So under hypothetical conditions (no corner/braking shortly after beginning of the boost) each boost could release 100 kJ. It has to be preceded by "valid regen" - 30 kJ.

And now: If they want battery to go down from SOC 80% to SOC 30%, is it enough to regen under each braking this 30 kJ to be able to use 100 kJ from next boost? Or driver should try to regen as big amount of energy as possible? In other words - should some of the braking regens give 60 kJ/80 kJ and does it have influence on the energy for boost which he will use until the end of the stage?

In above assumption I excluded boost maps and regen maps to make it simplier.

[WRCStan]

The aim of the game hasn't changed, driver wants to get to the finish as quickly as possible and will concentrate on that not energy values. There's no points for energy recovery or having a fuller/used battery. The rate at which the battery recharges doesn't convince me it's worth a driver thinking about. 30kj is tiny, 5-10% of what's available braking from 120kph to 50kph. We'll have to wait and see real world values of what they are actually capable of.

Full battery has 14,040kj on paper, max SOC 80% is 11,232. Max 1000kj off at the start line, 10,232kj. Sounds like 30% could be the minimum SOC, 4212kj.

So, even when they regen the minimum and boost the max each time and have the opportunity to do that, it's >80 boosts on this stage, average 4/km? It's plenty, but we're assuming they're starting the stage at max SOC! Maybe another strategy play is to turn it off on the first stage of a loop?

[AnttiL]

So, even when they regen the minimum and boost the max each time and have the opportunity to do that, it's >80 boosts on this stage, average 4/km? It's plenty, but we're assuming they're starting the stage at max SOC! Maybe another strategy play is to turn it off on the first stage of a loop?

Why? They can regenerate the battery to full on the road section.

[traxx]

You are right 30kj is for triggering, but it could be more if it's a hard braking zone...

For instance, for this stage 2, if the car start with 80% and finish with 30% so around 7000kj is available (11232 kj to 4212 kj)
So 70 boosts (100kj) are available.

To be able to do a boost you need a brake, if each time the driver brakes at 30kj (it's only a theory, not real...), extra generated energy : 2100kj so 21 extra boosts.

So for SS2, 91 boosts could be available. More with long braking, less without braking...

[traxx]

Why? They can regenerate the battery to full on the road section.

Sure, Should be around 100% at the start of each stage

[WRCStan]

Why? They can regenerate the battery to full on the road section.

Not if they're straight out of one and into the other. Now I remember they have this new P1 clash rule so they have the time but if it's just meters down the road they would have to leave the engine running.

[AnttiL]

Not if they're straight out of one and into the other. Now I remember they have this new P1 clash rule so they have the time but if it's just meters down the road they would have to leave the engine running.

Not leave engine running but make quick accelerate / brakings ( I hope they won't do this anyway in public traffic). But as we know two stages will no more be close to each other in terms of time, and likely not in terms of distance either.

I'm also sadly convinced that we won't see anymore stages with 30+ km lengths. As if the changes we have seen during the 2-3 last years have been targeting at the new cars.

[Rallyper]

Is this season of WRC going to be all about mathematics? What happens if they go out of boundry with all kJ?

[seb_sh]

So basically... they made a way to have a bit of extra power and put hybrid stickers on the car. To me it seems the system is made so that the driver doesn't have to think about it too much once he is used to it. Maybe just adjusting the mapping to the conditions but on most rallies it will just stay in the same setting the whole rally. But I don't think it's a bad way to do it, if you think about it, this prescription ensures that the boost is used to accelerate after some significant braking so you can't use it to boost when going at top speed. More power in the corners = more fun?

[Tom K]

You are right 30kj is for triggering, but it could be more if it's a hard braking zone...

For instance, for this stage 2, if the car start with 80% and finish with 30% so around 7000kj is available (11232 kj to 4212 kj)
So 70 boosts (100kj) are available.

To be able to do a boost you need a brake, if each time the driver brakes at 30kj (it's only a theory, not real...), extra generated energy : 2100kj so 21 extra boosts.

So for SS2, 91 boosts could be available. More with long braking, less without braking...

Thanks. I know it could be more, but point for me was if the driver would need to brake harder than 30 kJ. Seems that he doesn't need to bother about it. If even with minimum regen from braking, number of boosts should be around 70-90, there is small risk that "hard-braking" driver will get some advantage...

When it comes to regen on road section. Maybe the ratio is higher because of map of regen?

Rules say:
Mapping for the road section is free.
• Mapping in full EV mode and road section mode charging are
not included in the frozen maps limitation.
• Road section mode cannot be used on a stage. If the car goes
out of stage mode during a stage, the hybrid system must be
disabled.

For sure regen on road sections will allow recharging battery to the SOC of 80%

[WRCStan]

Not leave engine running but make quick accelerate / brakings ( I hope they won't do this anyway in public traffic). But as we know two stages will no more be close to each other in terms of time, and likely not in terms of distance either.

I was assuming it'll charge off the engine in road mode! I can't prove that.

I had something like a Brenig/Alwen in mind, it's not so common you're right. However, trying to recover 7000kj would take pure regen braking at 100% efficiency the equivalent of ~20 stops from 80kph - they ain't got the tech. Another way of putting it is braking to feed 30kW for nearly 4 minutes. Speeding would help but means fines, braking hard probably won't help, just puts more into the pads/discs.

20km between SS1 and SS2 on Thursday will be a useful test. They may have to stop every 500m along the way to recharge. Then it's 12km of mostly straight uphill D-road leading up to the Power Stage. Can they plug in at that regroup? It takes 20 minutes to charge 20-80% plugged into the mains even but they have the time.

These are worst case scenarios too.

[WRCStan]

Is this season of WRC going to be all about mathematics?

Sorry Per, I'll probably shut up about it by Thursday night.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Question on the DF podcast..

On a typical 20km tarmac stage how much time will a driver lose if his hybrid system has failed ?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Under the skin of a Puma...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJaS48ZXMAACsWF?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJaS48ZXsAAwRy_?format=jpg&name=large

[traxx]

It is not allowed to trigger the hybrid system, but could it be interesting to have a system to manage conditions that trigerring the hybrid system ?

For instance, a button to be sure to have a valid regen when you brake to have a 30kj regen. If the driver know that is really interesting to have a boost just after this corner, could be interesting to be sure to have enough braking even if it's a little bit to much for the corner.

Another example, a button to be sure to not trigger the boost when accelerating because the driver knows it's interesting to use it just after.

Or just indicators to know if the valid regen is done, if the boost is available or the level of energy available.

Do you know if this kind of system could be interesting and if it's allowed ?

[Tom K]

I think part of this was lesson for tests. They need to know/learn how strong should be braking at the given speed, to have valid regen.

and this

"If the driver know that is really interesting to have a boost just after this corner, could be interesting to be sure to have enough braking even if it's a little bit to much for the corner" - I think it is small portion of strategy which every driver was talking about. This is probably additional thing to analyze during/after recce and during talks with engineers

[traxx]

I think part of this was lesson for tests. They need to know/learn how strong should be braking at the given speed, to have valid regen.

and this

"If the driver know that is really interesting to have a boost just after this corner, could be interesting to be sure to have enough braking even if it's a little bit to much for the corner" - I think it is small portion of strategy which every driver was talking about. This is probably additional thing to analyze during/after recce and during talks with engineers

Can they develop a system to help the driver to do that ? By displaying data or by providing a button to activate a system or by an auto-enabled system depending of conditions (GPS, distance from the start, ...) ?

[ictus]

I think part of this was lesson for tests. They need to know/learn how strong should be braking at the given speed, to have valid regen.

and this

"If the driver know that is really interesting to have a boost just after this corner, could be interesting to be sure to have enough braking even if it's a little bit to much for the corner" - I think it is small portion of strategy which every driver was talking about. This is probably additional thing to analyze during/after recce and during talks with engineers

I think it's phisically impossible to regen enough energy that it would benefitial to brake more than it's necessary.

[WRCStan]

Can they develop a system to help the driver to do that ? By displaying data or by providing a button to activate a system or by an auto-enabled system depending of conditions (GPS, distance from the start, ...) ?

The only button they have is activate/disable, with 60s required between disable and activate. They could program logic into the ECU as part of the three map options, but this is a hard-coded homologated part so they won't be inputting individual stage parameters like gps zones.

If they need an acceleration boost after the next bend chances are they will be braking for the bend. If they need to force a regen to gain an acceleration boost then 30kj is 1 second of braking with this equipment, breaking harder is a myth. I can't see it being worth doing.

[Mirek]

Question on the DF podcast..

On a typical 20km tarmac stage how much time will a driver lose if his hybrid system has failed ?

A question which DF can not answer.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Tanak 5th fastest on run 1 of RMC shakedown without any hybrid boost.

[greencroft]

Can people see those side cooling ducts for the hybrid units working when we get to Sweden?

Maybe not so important there for the cooling given the ambients temperatures, but first snowbank kiss will surely block them up with snow, on the Toyota particularly?

[lmmjvss]

I watched more than 20 videos on youtube from people filming from Monte Carlo, they all have more than 30k views each (more or less) and everybody seems very positive about the cars. Some short clips from the cars on electric engine and then such an awesome sound when it turns the ICE engine on. Nice!

[AnttiL]

I see people wanting more brands and more cars but 3 brands and 8 or 9 cars is already a great number. I mean, its never good to have too many brands cuz they eventually leave because they cant win. Only one brand can win per year.

For the safety of the championship it would be good to have four brands in case one quits. And more manufacturers means more paid seats for drivers.

But for competition aspect, I agree that less can be more. It's easier to follow a competition of 10-15 high-level cars compared to having Rally2 as the main class with possibly 50 cars starting so you would have to wait two hours to find out who actually won the stage (and changing stage conditions could start making properly a difference)

[AndyRAC]

I see people wanting more brands and more cars but 3 brands and 8 or 9 cars is already a great number. I mean, its never good to have too many brands cuz they eventually leave because they cant win. Only one brand can win per year.

I'm not sure I'd class it as great; 4-5 manufacturers is the ideal number, with 3-4 cars per team. When you have 6-7 manufacturers, they all can't win, and some pull out. We saw this in the early 2000s....

[er88]

I'm not sure I'd class it as great; 4-5 manufacturers is the ideal number, with 3-4 cars per team. When you have 6-7 manufacturers, they all can't win, and some pull out. We saw this in the early 2000s....We saw with Citroen though that even as 4th best team they didn't want to stick around.

However with a bigger pool of top line drivers 4teams should be the perfect number. With 3/4 cars per team, and driver(s) in each team who can fight for wins

[becher]

It could allways be better, but compared to the "golden eras of Group B/A" it isn't all that bad. In those times it was quite common to have just 6-8 serious works cars at an event.

[lmmjvss]

Right now I'd rather something like... If in 2023 someone like Kimi Raikkonen could start his IceOne team racing with two 2022 Yaris, since Toyota will probably build new cars for 2023. If Petter Solberg could enter a two Hyundai 2022 car team, since they will probably build new cars. If ProDrive could buy latest versions of the Puma and enter a new team. I think this could be morr healthy than more actual manufactures. I want more drivers, not brands

[pantealex]

I want more drivers, not brands

Why don't you want more brands ?

For me Rally is about cars not drivers.

[lmmjvss]

Why don't you want more brands ?
For me Rally is about cars not drivers.

I think I have changed my views about WRC over the last months.
3 brands is enough! 3 teams is not. I personally wish we could have 3 brands but 6 or 7 teams, racing one year old cars (starting in 2023 with the 2022 cars and so on, like the Ducatti teams in MotoGP - not sure if this is possible in new WRC rules tho). NOt sure how the economics of that would work too but imagine having Lotos, IceOne, Qatar, AbuDhabi, Chicherit, ProDrive, Prokop with Rally1 car teams too! Some costumers, some satellites, some privatters... Different collors, maybe some design change allowed... I know we have Rally2 already but they will never be the top class and I honestly LOVE the WRC and Rally1 cars more than any other class haha so give us more teams! (more cars, more drivers)

[WRCStan]

Middle of the night can't sleep wheelbase factoid: all these cars have slightly longer wheelbase than their road going counterparts. Puma 12mm, i20 N 50mm, GR Yaris 70mm. Who says smaller is better?

[tommeke_B]

They all have roughly 100mm longer wheelbase than the Octavia WRC and Subaru S12 WRC had.

[denkimi]

I'm not sure I'd class it as great; 4-5 manufacturers is the ideal number, with 3-4 cars per team. When you have 6-7 manufacturers, they all can't win, and some pull out. We saw this in the early 2000s....
Yet we have 10 f1 teams although most of them can never win.

[er88]

Yet we have 10 f1 teams although most of them can never win.F1 is a different beast in terms of media exposure though.

F1 also technically only has 3 manufacturers (Ferrari, Merc and Alpine/Renault), with Red Bull just a powerhouse of an organisation.

Rallying could maybe improve with sub teams - like 2C Hyundai running 2 cars. Or when we had the Stobart Ford Team.

[tommeke_B]

There's certainly not a restriction to add more teams and cars to the championship. But it seems that at the moment no company is willing to pay the bill for the return they think it's going to offer.

[mknight]

In F1 teams get paid for points (based on selling TV rights).

In WRC teams pay the promoter (via championship entry fees) and get nothing for points.

[becher]

Middle of the night can't sleep wheelbase factoid: all these cars have slightly longer wheelbase than their road going counterparts. Puma 12mm, i20 N 50mm, GR Yaris 70mm. Who says smaller is better?

Short car, long wheelbase that's the way to go. The other way round like Subaru for example is just pointless.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

OK so the first rally with the new cars is done and it's not been too bad.

Yes there have been quite a few problems with them but only Hyundai's caused retirement.

On a positive note it was nice that so many drivers said they liked their car (esp M-Sport's) and I didn't hear any moaning about the manual gear change, lack of centre-diff, lack of aero or reduced suspension travel.

[ictus]

I didn't hear any moaning about the manual gear change, lack of centre-diff, lack of aero or reduced suspension travel.

It's the same for everybody so why should there be any moaning?
Also the reduced travel is still more than enough on tarmac ;)

[AnttiL]

Thierry said he has never been this scared while driving.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's the same for everybody so why should there be any moaning?
Also the reduced travel is still more than enough on tarmac ;)


Thierry said he has never been this scared while driving.

Yes it is the same for everyone but even knowing this Neuville was the most critical of the new cars from their announcement.

He also admitted the Hyundai was lacking development.

[pantealex]

It's the same for everybody so why should there be any moaning?


Pirelli tyres are same for everyone and they are moaning...

[lmmjvss]

They look as fast as last year too.... sliding a little more, maybe? which is fun

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Compact Dynamics says the teams were happy with their hybrid systems...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-monte-reliability-that-defied-pre-season-fears/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport's Chris William's on the Puma and Rally1 rules and regs:

https://youtu.be/TIvNwMnybdA

[becher]

M-Sport's Chris William's on the Puma and Rally1 rules and regs:

https://youtu.be/TIvNwMnybdA


Great video, finally something about the new cars that actually focuses on technical changes and not just marketing blabber about HYBRID!!!! or sensless claims about a spec chassis or hybrid being old technology like the "journalists" from dirtfish.

[doubled1978]

Great video, finally something about the new cars that actually focuses on technical changes and not just marketing blabber about HYBRID!!!! or sensless claims about a spec chassis or hybrid being old technology like the "journalists" from dirtfish.

Agreed, more information in this interview than everything else I have heard put together.
It’s obviously a point of interest amongst the engineers the different approach to the cooling they have each taken.

[lmmjvss]

https://jalopnik.com/its-no-surprise-most-motorsport-isnt-sustainable-enough-1848514507

In this article about motorsport susteinability, this entity compiled more than 100 motorsport championships to evaluate which ones are doing the best job. You can download the document. The funny thing is that FIA ERC is one of the most sustainable series around haha They are doing more than the electric Touring Car and the Moto-E series. The data is from last years so WRC is waaaaay down on their ranking. Nascar is weirdly "cleaner" than I thought. Maybe cuz they dont fly airplanes that much? Anyway, just sharing here that erc was naturally more "green" than wrc but lets see after 2022.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Great interview with M.Wilson and tour of the M-Sport workshop and new Puma:

https://m.facebook.com/RalioS4C/videos/369836701808181

Interesting that he says the new cars are harder to repair and drivers must always stop and change a puncture if otherwise there's a chance of damage to the car.

Also two more Puma sales are to be announced soon.

[Sulland]

It is probably too early to conclude, but I did not like how easy the doors came off the Puma in the slide crasch in Monte.

Maybe they need to have a look at the strength of the locks and hinges, to protect the crew better.

[Sal yet again]

It is probably too early to conclude, but I did not like how easy the doors came off the Puma in the slide crasch in Monte.

Maybe they need to have a look at the strength of the locks and hinges, to protect the crew better.


Expressed that view elsewhere and got accused of being alarmist however I too have concerns about the doors and possible intrusion into the safety cell. Even if the doors were to be fitted with retaining straps they could flail around and cause serious injury on the rebound. With so little of the car being steel it may be a problem. Spaceframes on the race circuit are less of an issue as little in the way of trees or other landscape entering the car if panels fly off.

[Sulland]

What is FIA or Compact Dynamiscs saying about the many hickups of their new Hybrid units has given the teams?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Compact Dyamics to investigate the hybrid issue with Tanak's car in Sweden:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/compact-dynamics-apologizes-for-tanak-hybrid-failure/

"It was too early to identify what had gone wrong, with post-failure analysis requiring the unit fitted to Tänak’s car to be returned to Compact Dynamics’ headquarters for further inspection.

“We have to wait for what is the result of the evaluation together with the FIA. We are working hard on that," they told DirtFish.

[Sulland]

How many 1000s of kilometer have the Hybrid unit been tested in a rallycar, with top drivers and at top speeds?

[bandit12]

"I can only apologize and hope that he will restart well and will gain time again as much as he can.”
Indeed. "Sorry, our experimental box cocked up a bit. Have a nice rally 2 and try to gain some time back."

[1988senna]

is the msport so slow because of the more long straight and less battery use in Sweden? or just because the all three drivers not good at driving on snow?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

"I can only apologize and hope that he will restart well and will gain time again as much as he can.”
Indeed. "Sorry, our experimental box cocked up a bit. Have a nice rally 2 and try to gain some time back."

They are sorry for Tanak but that doesnt mean they are taking the blame yet...

'There could be, let’s say, several different root causes, starting with the reason being in the car or the overall control unit of the car – or the reason is somewhere in the hybrid system.'

[EstWRC]

Hyundai and Toyota have urged the FIA to update sporting regulations to prevent cars being forced to retire from rallies due to problems with hybrid units.

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/hyundai-and-toyota-call-for-changes-to-wrc-hybrid-regulations/8570244/

[AnttiL]

Tänak's case made me think that notional times should be given in case the driver has to stop only because of the hybrid unit. But it's difficult to draw the line, if you drive the car into a tree and get red light because of that, does that allow notional times being used?

[bandit12]

Tänak's case made me think that notional times should be given in case the driver has to stop only because of the hybrid unit. But it's difficult to draw the line, if you drive the car into a tree and get red light because of that, does that allow notional times being used?

That would be the only and fair act at the moment ...
The question just arises as to how much to give to Tänak, whose car was stopped between two stages, and the moment when he was fighting for the first place. And how much to give to Evans, whose hybrid unit broke down after his off.

[ouvreur]

I wonder if Toyota claiming Evans' retirement was down to hybrid reasons, is just in case any retrospective action is taken to redress the absurdly unfair Tanak situation...

Granted, they're not going to amend the results for Sweden, but if any concessions are granted to Ott as a result of what happened to him, perhaps TGR are hoping they can benefit too.

I don't think they should be able to, but still. You can't blame them for trying!

[AnttiL]

Results cannot be changed afterwards. But notice that Tänak was 1.1s from the lead with intact car when hybrid unit broke. Evans was almost an hour behind with smashed front

[AnttiL]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMwG6_fWQAEWEEW?format=jpg&name=large

Some comparisons between the pace of Rally1, Rally2 and Rally3 from Monte and Sweden. There's a slow, medium and fast stage from each rally.

It seems that:
- Rally1 is ~2 s/km faster than Rally2
- Rally2 is ~2 s/km faster than Rally3

[ouvreur]

Results cannot be changed afterwards. But notice that Tänak was 1.1s from the lead with intact car when hybrid unit broke. Evans was almost an hour behind with smashed front

Normally not, unless there has been a protest, and the results aren't final. In this case, they are final, so no question of any retrospective change. What I was thinking was, that if there was a chance of some benefit being granted to Tanak / Hyundai in this case of the hybrid unit failing and mandating retirement (for example a free replacement unit, or some other financial or sporting concession), Toyota would claim the same problem, to try to get the same benefit.

[jcevc]

I think it will be interesting to compare times on stages in Croatia regarding WRC17/Rally1 spec cars because most of the stages are same (for sure in case of dry weather during the rally) - first comparable rally in season.

[wyler]

i don't get this idea about hybrid failure reward, it's a part of the cars that can fail, like any other, and doesn't mean much that it isn't produced by the manufacturer, there's a lot of them in every rally car. it's like asking time back for a puncture, any time that a driver says "i didn't touch anything".
i think this discussion is a bit biases toward the new tech...

[ouvreur]

i don't get this idea about hybrid failure reward, it's a part of the cars that can fail, like any other, and doesn't mean much that it isn't produced by the manufacturer, there's a lot of them in every rally car. it's like asking time back for a puncture, any time that a driver says "i didn't touch anything".
i think this discussion is a bit biases toward the new tech...

I don't agree. The teams have been made to use this equipment, there is no choice of supplier, the specification and design is dictated to the teams who effectively have to build their cars around it. Other than the FIA monitoring systems and TV equipment, there's nothing else like this in Rally1 cars - and those aren't performance / reliability critical parts anyway.

In the case of Tanak, it failed in a situation where it simply should not have done so. It's not like he was going 1000x harder than anyone else, even before the issue began to develop he was only 4.2 seconds up on Lappi. These hybrid units need to be able to deal with the stresses of rally drivers trying to drive fast, otherwise what is the point of them?

If it were the case that teams could either outsource or develop their own e-drive systems, we would not be having this conversation. But the fact is, they don't, and we've already seen one high-profile example of a team and a driver being let down by a part they have no choice but to use. It's fair enough to ask for a less severe consequence than having to retire the car and take 10 minute penalties for each missing stage in this case.

[AnttiL]

I don't agree. The teams have been made to use this equipment, there is no choice of supplier, the specification and design is dictated to the teams who effectively have to build their cars around it. Other than the FIA monitoring systems and TV equipment, there's nothing else like this in Rally1 cars - and those aren't performance / reliability critical parts anyway.

Tyres? Currently some of the transmission parts are shared?

[ouvreur]

Tyres? Currently some of the transmission parts are shared?

I don't think there are any transmission parts that are shared. Ford use Sadev, Hyundai use Ricardo, Toyota use Xtrac.

Tyres, there is some similarity, but they are obviously far more vulnerable to both bad luck and driver error. They're also much more of a known quantity than hybrid power units. I can't think of many situations where it can be proved beyond doubt that a tyre has failed because of a manufacturing or design fault.

[wyler]

I don't agree. The teams have been made to use this equipment, there is no choice of supplier, the specification and design is dictated to the teams who effectively have to build their cars around it. Other than the FIA monitoring systems and TV equipment, there's nothing else like this in Rally1 cars - and those aren't performance / reliability critical parts anyway.

In the case of Tanak, it failed in a situation where it simply should not have done so. It's not like he was going 1000x harder than anyone else, even before the issue began to develop he was only 4.2 seconds up on Lappi. These hybrid units need to be able to deal with the stresses of rally drivers trying to drive fast, otherwise what is the point of them?

If it were the case that teams could either outsource or develop their own e-drive systems, we would not be having this conversation. But the fact is, they don't, and we've already seen one high-profile example of a team and a driver being let down by a part they have no choice but to use. It's fair enough to ask for a less severe consequence than having to retire the car and take 10 minute penalties for each missing stage in this case.

as just said above, tires are the same. fuel is the same. lots of other parts are the same. at this point u should complain for a rollcage damage because the frame is imposed by fia?

anyway, there's a limit in everything, and drivers must comply with it. it sounds very like the argument about the rim that "wasn't strong enough" (for the same driver, if i recollect rightly). of course, you can aim for the best, of course, people will work on making things better. but failure happens anyway. and everybody have to comply with the current state of the art. then things can (and clearly have to) improve, but to me, this is a pointless complaint. and it's not like ten car didn't started in 2 races. it was a couple of car after previous crashes/hit.

[wyler]

I can't think of many situations where it can be proved beyond doubt that a tyre has failed because of a manufacturing or design fault.

which as far as today, it's the same for hybrid...

[dupanton]

It's part of the sport as it is now. Get over it.
Things can fail. If your car fails, you retire. It's like that. Doesn't matter if the part is mandated by FIA or not.

Also, He had a very big impact after a jump. That could have caused the issue. It's difficult to say when it's the fault of the driver/team and when it isn't.
To avoid discussions, they have to keep the rules as it is now. It's maybe harsh, but at least the rules are clear.

[TypeR]

If the car and crew can finish the stage with good time and car is working, the impact can't be that big. The magic system must stay ok after bumps and smaller hits.

Doesn't matter that the rules are clear if they are stupid.
It's not normal that you have to stay fingers crossed hoping that green light would stay on.

Puncture - repairable
Bodywork - repairable
Engine issues - repairable
Suspension - repairable
HY system - can't do anything and works whenever it wants.

[AnttiL]

More punctures than spares = nothing you can do

Alternator broken = hopefully you’re close to service

Also if you have oil pressure warning, it’s likely you just have to stop to prevent further damage

[PLuto]

More punctures than spares = nothing you can do

Not true. You can take more spares (if you are risking with only one) or you can make less punctures :)

[wyler]

If the car and crew can finish the stage with good time and car is working, the impact can't be that big. The magic system must stay ok after bumps and smaller hits.

Doesn't matter that the rules are clear if they are stupid.
It's not normal that you have to stay fingers crossed hoping that green light would stay on.

Puncture - repairable
Bodywork - repairable
Engine issues - repairable
Suspension - repairable
HY system - can't do anything and works whenever it wants.

not true. it's all about how bad is the damage, as for everything. engine failure can stop you right at the end of ss to avoid more damage (it happened a lot of time). bad managed puncture can end your race (happened one month ago). suspension also can end a race on spot, depending on how bad. and the same as the hybrid unit. you can service it or change it in case of small failure ( we had drivers without power in some ss, then repaired).

you can drive well and finish a stage with good time with a car that has rollbar bent, still this will end your race (and with no rally2).

really i can't find a big difference between hy and other parts, if not a prejudicial aversion vs a new tech.

[wyler]

Not true. You can take more spares (if you are risking with only one) or you can make less punctures :)

exactly on point. take care of your machinery.

[spiderem]

exactly on point. take care of your machinery.

And Tanak hasn't been the wisest lately in his choices of spare tyres number...

[becher]

One recurring theme with these discussions is Tanäk. Whenever something "bad" happens to him people are up in arms and want the regulations changed. Being a fan is normal but this seems to go beyond. Failures happen, misfortune is a thing, get over it.

[ouvreur]

All I'm saying is, wait and see. Hyundai and Ott are clearly not happy about this, and Toyota have cynically tried to blame Evans' retirement on hybrid problems. There will be some sort of change to the regulations coming...

[EstWRC]

One recurring theme with these discussions is Tanäk. Whenever something "bad" happens to him people are up in arms and want the regulations changed. Being a fan is normal but this seems to go beyond. Failures happen, misfortune is a thing, get over it.

The conversation started as a general discussion about this issue and Tänak was brought by some members here. Funny when always Tänak has these problems then its always his fault but when other drivers have then it’s a general problem.

Just listened to dirtfish podcast with Adamo and he says also something has to be done different in these situations. Says the hybrid system is weak at the moment and it isn’t also the best in marketing view if it’s retired because of it

[er88]

No car should be retired from the rally due to faulty hybrid systems if everything else is fine.

That Tanak retirement is bad for the sport and makes compact dynamics look amateur. Nobody benefits.

If the system isn't working, that's already a "penalty" of sorts as you don't get the extra boost. And it's even worse if the lights just aren't working. Something has to change.

If the teams developed their own hybrid units, and it fails/ goes red/ doesn't light up at all, that would be different. But Hyundai and Tanak had no control over this retirement.

[Sulland]

Does Compact Dynamics (CD) have online connection with the cars during rallies, so they can go in and do management on a unit like Tanak's?

[becher]

The conversation started as a general discussion about this issue and Tänak was brought by some members here. Funny when always Tänak has these problems then its always his fault but when other drivers have then it’s a general problem.

Just listened to dirtfish podcast with Adamo and he says also something has to be done different in these situations. Says the hybrid system is weak at the moment and it isn’t also the best in marketing view if it’s retired because of it

You misunderstood, for me it's not about Tänak being responsible for technical failures/retierment or not but rather how people react to general misfortune when Tänak is at the receiving end.

[wyler]

No car should be retired from the rally due to faulty hybrid systems if everything else is fine.

That Tanak retirement is bad for the sport and makes compact dynamics look amateur. Nobody benefits.

If the system isn't working, that's already a "penalty" of sorts as you don't get the extra boost. And it's even worse if the lights just aren't working. Something has to change.

If the teams developed their own hybrid units, and it fails/ goes red/ doesn't light up at all, that would be different. But Hyundai and Tanak had no control over this retirement.

point is that's not a faulty unit. it has (or probably was) broken. it can happen and there's the reality. in dreams nothing ever breaks, reality is that sometime happens. again: it's not like ten car were alted on faulty units in 2 race. it's 2 car broken after crashes. of course they can improve reliability on this kind of damage (probably undercar is a bit "soft"), but still this complaint is pointless. it's like when people was blaming pirelli or michelin for punctures.

[bandit12]

point is that's not a faulty unit. it has (or probably was) broken. it can happen and there's the reality. in dreams nothing ever breaks, reality is that sometime happens. again: it's not like ten car were alted on faulty units in 2 race. it's 2 car broken after crashes. of course they can improve reliability on this kind of damage (probably undercar is a bit "soft"), but still this complaint is pointless. it's like when people was blaming pirelli or michelin for punctures.

Why are you so butthurt on this topic?

[wyler]

Why are you so butthurt on this topic?

not really, just talking.
looks like the real butthurted are somewhere else entirely.

anyway, in general, don't like when storytelling surpasses plain fact.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

No car should be retired from the rally due to faulty hybrid systems if everything else is fine.

That Tanak retirement is bad for the sport and makes compact dynamics look amateur. Nobody benefits.

If the system isn't working, that's already a "penalty" of sorts as you don't get the extra boost. And it's even worse if the lights just aren't working. Something has to change.

If the teams developed their own hybrid units, and it fails/ goes red/ doesn't light up at all, that would be different. But Hyundai and Tanak had no control over this retirement.

Even if the car is otherwise working perfectly, the hybrid means it is still potentially dangerous due to the high-voltage electric current the cars generate.

"A flashing red light accompanied by an alarm, or if no light is visible at all, means fans must keep away.”

[Sulland]

Carsize is always a topic on the development table.
Car width is the same for all 1875 mm
Numbers I have found online are;

Brand Wheelbase Length
Toyota 2630 4225
Ford 2600 ? Do anyone know?
Hyundai 2630 4100


So cars are pretty similar, I am guessing due to the common spaceframe.
Difference of 120 mm btw Toyota and Hyundai in length with same wheelbase, is overhang front and rear. Might play a small part on gravel in tight corners.
Or are the cars too similar in the measurements that it will play a role on the different surfaces?

[ouvreur]

It isn't a common spaceframe. While the regulations about rollcage / chassis construction are quite prescriptive, each team has designed, and either manufactures or outsources, its own chassis.

[becher]

Carsize is always a topic on the development table.
Car width is the same for all 1875 mm
Numbers I have found online are;

Brand Wheelbase Length
Toyota 2630 4225
Ford 2600 ? Do anyone know?
Hyundai 2630 4100


So cars are pretty similar, I am guessing due to the common spaceframe.
Difference of 120 mm btw Toyota and Hyundai in length with same wheelbase, is overhang front and rear. Might play a small part on gravel in tight corners.
Or are the cars too similar in the measurements that it will play a role on the different surfaces?


They are so similar in size because it is the sweetspot in regards of what is possible. I'd guess you couldn't really go any smaller due to packaging constraints and would potentially end up with a too short wheelbase if you'd were to go any smaller. Equally you wouldn't want a bigger car for obvious reasons, but you want to maximise the wheelbase (think a wheel in each corner). If we look back through the years we can see that manufacturers tried to go for a car that is round about four meters long whenever the regulations allowed.

Also as allready mentioned it is not a spec chassis, we are thankfully still talking about three different cars, not three different silhouettes.

[EstWRC]

Looks like a Dakar car from this shot

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220308/8ab7e013eff63a23cf7ee7e9b7e1adfc.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The real pity is that spaceframe chassis was really only brought in so new manufacturers could enter and re-size their relevant car model to fit.

And after doing so, there's been no new manufacturers come in anyway....

[AnttiL]

The real pity is that spaceframe chassis was really only brought in so new manufacturers could enter and re-size their relevant car model to fit.

And after doing so, there's been no new manufacturers come in anyway....

What says that it was the reason for spaceframe chassis?

Also, what says some manufacturers want to first see how this concept works before they put in dozens of millions?

[becher]

What says that it was the reason for spaceframe chassis?

Also, what says some manufacturers want to first see how this concept works before they put in dozens of millions?

It was certainly one of the reasons I would guess.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What says that it was the reason for spaceframe chassis?



'Scaling' is allowed and this couldn't be done if using a manufacturers production car bodyshell.

[AnttiL]

'Scaling' is allowed and this couldn't be done if using a manufacturers production car bodyshell.

There's more to it, making the cars lighter and better fitted for the hybrid unit, and also allowing the common safety cell to be used, increasing the safety of the cars.

The current three year regulation cycle cannot attract new manufacturers right now, no one will join in just for two years, unless FIA extends the current regulations somehow (maybe with everyone's own hybrid unit or something). Another thing is that these space frames could also be used for electric rally cars, if that's what the main class is in 2025, but too early to make guesses.

And finally we must remember that keeping the current manufacturers was every bit as important as getting new ones.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Wiki
"Tubular space frame structures are permitted allowing for scaling of production models."

[AnttiL]

Yes. It is now allowed to do scaling.

[ouvreur]

Wiki
"Tubular space frame structures are permitted allowing for scaling of production models."

It was one of the reasons, sure. But it's wasn't "really only brought in so new manufacturers could enter and re-size their relevant car model to fit" - the primary objective was to make the cars safer, both for the occupants, and the hybrid system. Chopping up standard road car chassis to turn them into rally cars will never be as safe or purposeful, as building a spaceframe from scratch.

[becher]

It was one of the reasons, sure. But it's wasn't "really only brought in so new manufacturers could enter and re-size their relevant car model to fit" - the primary objective was to make the cars safer, both for the occupants, and the hybrid system. Chopping up standard road car chassis to turn them into rally cars will never be as safe or purposeful, as building a spaceframe from scratch.

Strictly speaking that is not true, you can make a modified production shell so strong that the driver dies of deceleration (which actually happend in circuit racing), so there isn't really a limit to make a production based car save enough other than the laws of physics. It is however much cheaper to design a space frame from the ground up than to chop up a roadcar shell and modify it in such an extensive way like a WRCar.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Using a traditional road car chassis is still actually permitted under the Rally1 Regs. The tubular spaceframe was initially brought in when they wanted additional manufacturers to join who maybe didnt have a road car of the right size.

The existing teams then also used them for the hybrid packaging and safety advantages.

[becher]

Using a traditional road car chassis is still actually permitted under the Rally1 Regs. The tubular spaceframe was initially brought in when they wanted additional manufacturers to join who maybe didnt have a road car of the right size.

The existing teams then also used them for the hybrid packaging and safety advantages.
Last time I heard about that was at the FIA meeting in 2019 when they first announced these rules. It was never mentioned since then and I doubt it is still regulations, but someone might be able shed some light on this topic.

[tommeke_B]

https://scontent.fbru4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275742304_10224774743907612_6033644574471626809_n. jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=0GfrilxaqZwAX_XxPiI&_nc_ht=scontent.fbru4-1.fna&oh=00_AT9EtigtcZaI_K6GXiIkq1Dgm6g-9Ma8eTmLWBReY-0bSA&oe=62337104

Not sure if it's something new, haven't noticed it on any photos from Monte Carlo. There are two valves on the rim. From what I heard the 2nd valve could be for pulling out regular air when filling up the tyre with nitrogen. Anyone on here who can confirm what they use it for?

[dimviii]

https://scontent.fbru4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275742304_10224774743907612_6033644574471626809_n. jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=0GfrilxaqZwAX_XxPiI&_nc_ht=scontent.fbru4-1.fna&oh=00_AT9EtigtcZaI_K6GXiIkq1Dgm6g-9Ma8eTmLWBReY-0bSA&oe=62337104

Not sure if it's something new, haven't noticed it on any photos from Monte Carlo. There are two valves on the rim. From what I heard the 2nd valve could be for pulling out regular air when filling up the tyre with nitrogen. Anyone on here who can confirm what they use it for?

thats right. Many japanese racing wheels for circuit racing have 2 valves.

[br21]

Pressure sensor

[dimviii]

Pressure sensor

some rims havethe second hole for sensor,but when the one hole is for sensor is not at this part of the rim,but near the centre of the rim(easier to dismandle a tyre without broking the sensor)

https://www.m3post.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=747782&stc=1&d=1347102879

[ouvreur]

Rallye Hannut, with Jourdan Serderidis.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rallye Hannut, with Jourdan Serderidis.

Yes, there's lots of videos including the Puma if you search on YouTube for Rallye de Hannut 2022.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Soooooo, many weeks after Rally Sweden and there's still no info from Compact Dynamics about the reasons for Tanak's hybrid system fault. Not good.

[flat_right]

Do you know for sure that there isn't? Maybe it's just it hasn't been shared publicly.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Do you know for sure that there isn't? Maybe it's just it hasn't been shared publicly.

Maybe, but the information is pretty crucial for everyone involved and even for the credibility of the WRC at the top Rally1 level.

If the cause is known why isn't being released to the teams and if it has been why wouldnt they share it by now with Croatia coming up ?

[bandit12]

Maybe, but the information is pretty crucial for everyone involved and even for the credibility of the WRC at the top Rally1 level.

If the cause is known why isn't being released to the teams and if it has been why wouldnt they share it by now with Croatia coming up ?
Too bad publicity for Compact Dynamics

[WRCStan]

Maybe, but the information is pretty crucial for everyone involved and even for the credibility of the WRC at the top Rally1 level.

If the cause is known why isn't being released to the teams and if it has been why wouldnt they share it by now with Croatia coming up ?

I'm willing to bet teams have the reasons, but it's not in anybody's interests to share publicly such detail - especially from CD, no company puts out press saying 'look how we failed'. Also, what more can we public do with such technical information about specialised propriety equipment?

[TypeR]

to me they should communicate more/better to keep fans up to date with their technology and how it goes, as they are the ,,rookies'' in WRC since this season and there are few people who really like that new concept (hybrid parts of the car).

that one press release after Tanak's error was pretty poor and seemed like an answer form a guy, who was new to rallying (especially the time loss part)

Put something out thru WRC or DFish, that we found the problem and are on the way fixing it, making sure such thing won't happen in the future. Would give some positive image to that hybrid thing.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I'm willing to bet teams have the reasons, but it's not in anybody's interests to share publicly such detail - especially from CD, no company puts out press saying 'look how we failed'. Also, what more can we public do with such technical information about specialised propriety equipment?

The reasons need to be made public so that the fans can understand and the sport can be seen as fair with the new (2 min) penalty award.

Otherwise the WRC will be open to ridicule.

[WRCStan]

to me they should communicate more/better to keep fans up to date with their technology and how it goes, as they are the ,,rookies'' in WRC since this season and there are few people who really like that new concept (hybrid parts of the car).

that one press release after Tanak's error was pretty poor and seemed like an answer form a guy, who was new to rallying (especially the time loss part)

Put something out thru WRC or DFish, that we found the problem and are on the way fixing it, making sure such thing won't happen in the future. Would give some positive image to that hybrid thing.

Disagree, that'll only remind average Joes who've forgotten that it failed in the past. Better than that is to have a clean Croatia, Portugal... as expected.


The reasons need to be made public so that the fans can understand and the sport can be seen as fair with the new (2 min) penalty award.

Otherwise the WRC will be open to ridicule.

Near end of the season maybe, two rounds into a 3 season cycle is too early for anyone to say the kit slurs the championship when pre-season was full of teething-problem chat. I'm not sure what you would be expecting to hear but usually when it's a gearbox or engine problem we all accept it at that. Finding out precisely what happened to Tanak's unit won't make any more sense of the two or ten minute penalty decision. That surrounds balancing safety requirements.

Could always try asking them (https://www.compact-dynamics.de/en/contact/)?

[wyler]

Maybe, but the information is pretty crucial for everyone involved and even for the credibility of the WRC at the top Rally1 level.

If the cause is known why isn't being released to the teams and if it has been why wouldnt they share it by now with Croatia coming up ?

it's known since the rally. heavy landing after a jump. the manus have "won" a pr challenge (2 min penalty), and don't need a statement that says "reason was bad car management". .

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Could always try asking them (https://www.compact-dynamics.de/en/contact/)?

I've reminded the journalists at Dirtfish who raised the fact that there's been no info in a podcast a few weeks ago.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

it's known since the rally. heavy landing after a jump. the manus have "won" a pr challenge (2 min penalty), and don't need a statement that says "reason was bad car management". .

So who's fault was it ? A rally car having a heavy landing goes with the territory...

[wyler]

So who's fault was it ? A rally car having a heavy landing goes with the territory...

indeed! problems after a too-heavy landing are part of the game (and quite usual btw).

does it imply a complete revision of a component? a public pillory of the producer?
we had 2 failures after 2 crashes in 2 races...not that much of an issue.
we had countless problems after heavy landings, with no inquisitions. who's fault? usually drivers!

looks like just a very good means to make people quarrel against innovation.
don't get fooled, manu's argument was just intended to get some advantages for the next race, that didn't happened effectively, just pr-wise.

in fact, after the 2min agreement, question settled and no more news. let's see if it reappears in the next rounds.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Published today by the FIA an updated version of the WRC 2022 Sporting Regulations which includes an additional test day allocated after hybrid unit issues.

[SubaruNorway]

If it's 10km from the finish it should be the bump at 7:40 in SS5 Tänak loses hybrid?
I think they did a big mistake reducing the travel, makes no sense either.
I'm not going to any events before Finland unless it's fixed for sure, it kind of ruined the fun of Sweden for me.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They are still discussing the hybrid penalty issue...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-teams-still-talking-to-fia-over-hybrid-penalties/

[TypeR]

They are still discussing the hybrid penalty issue...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-teams-still-talking-to-fia-over-hybrid-penalties/

This tyre story part is pretty nonsense..

[Fast Eddie WRC]

This tyre story part is pretty nonsense..

Why ? It would be an issue the others would raise if someone got an advantage by missing stages. There is a lot to consider and potentially having more tyres are part of it.

[WRCStan]

How easy is it for CD to remove the battery on stage if they're going to have hybrid assistance spots? Or is this interfering with the politics of assistance and judging blame anyway? Sure if it's mechanical they are still out for the day but maybe they can just be delayed if it's simply the light.

Maybe instead of scratch+penalty, go with the median Rally1 time, or the average of your team mates.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Still no answers from CD and Tanak says "the hybrid unit is not meant for rallying"...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/tanak-new-wrc-hybrid-regulations-will-make-no-difference/10079284/

[EstWRC]

Ott really doesn’t seem to like that box or compact dynamics

Lol

[TypeR]

Soooooo, many weeks after Rally Sweden and there's still no info from Compact Dynamics about the reasons for Tanak's hybrid system fault. Not good.

Still no answers from CD and Tanak says "the hybrid unit is not meant for rallying"...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/tanak-new-wrc-hybrid-regulations-will-make-no-difference/10079284/

You were right!

[flat_right]

Ott really doesn’t seem to like that box or compact dynamics

Lol

Can't blame him. Ott is someone who needs to control every part of the machine or at least that he could push mechanics/engineers to do better. Now it is totally out of his hands and the only thing he can do is "whine" in media.

[Sulland]

Did anyone have any hybrid hickups in Croatia, or were there issues this time as well?

[flat_right]

Did anyone have any hybrid hickups in Croatia, or were there issues this time as well?

The only one that I can remember was from Ott (again). At the end of the last stage of day 1, he said that he had a hybrid issue on that stage. Can't recall any other.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rally Croatia was called Finland on Tarmac with all the jumps... and the hybrid units all coped ok with the heavy landings. Maybe Tanak's issue in Sweden was a one-off, or due to some other reason.

Also I haven't heard any complaints from the driver's about the performance of the cars, or moans about less aero or the other changes compared to the last-Gen cars. Not even from the previously most vocal, Mr Neuville.

Watching his latest test video may be shows why...

https://youtu.be/yp_cmBOQc6g

[dimviii]

WRC teams want urgent action on ‘unsafe’ cockpit temperatures

The problem centers around the location of the exhaust tunnel in the Rally1 cars


https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-teams-want-urgent-action-on-unsafe-cockpit-temperatures/


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTdCz_7XsAApEjT?format=jpg&name=small

[Eli]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/latvala-suggests-aircon-to-fix-rally1-cockpit-issue/

Seems like the simplest solution? Hopefully they’ll come up with something before Kenya.

[SubaruNorway]

Hybrid and electric cars run an electric AC compressor where you don't need a belt to run it, so would make it easier to fit. Not sure if the battery is big enough on the Rally1 though?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

WRC teams want urgent action on ‘unsafe’ cockpit temperatures

The problem centers around the location of the exhaust tunnel in the Rally1 cars


https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-teams-want-urgent-action-on-unsafe-cockpit-temperatures/


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTdCz_7XsAApEjT?format=jpg&name=small

Yet another issue with these spaceframe cars.

They never had this with the old cars using a proper bodyshell and they used the same engine and so a similar exhaust.

Packaging for the components (and not just the hybrid) and for the crews is really poor.

[Eli]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-evaluating-eight-options-to-fix-rally1-cockpit-temps/

Hopefully they'll have a solution figured out in time for Sardegna.

[Sergiow]

There is a brand new personal interview today on rallyssimo.it by Alex Alessandrini with Andrea Adamo. I am certainly not going to translate it all, but those 3 questions and answers are truly a wake up call:

After three races, hybrid technology is under siege, plagued by reliability problems and more. At his time you had expressed some doubts about the transition to this technology, especially with respect to the times of realization and the car models that the market can offer for the next three / four years. Saying it today is perhaps easy but, what was the case to take some more time? Was it necessary to do this because the market is asking for that? What do you think?

"Look, I am still convinced today, after seeing the race in Portugal as a retiree going to see a road construction site instead of a WRC race, that this regulation was a mistake. I am convinced that today's cars should have been Rally2, with a bigger restrictor, perhaps a more eye-catching wing and rear bumper. Potentially there would have been more manufacturers today, there would certainly be more customers ready to race with these cars, there would probably be more interesting races because with cars that cost less, the panorama of competitive drivers who can race is widened.

Today we have very sophisticated machines at an electronic level but, with limitations in terms of suspension, engine and much more that lead me to wonder if it was really necessary to focus on machines like this. The transmission concept, with all due respect, is that of an R5: five-speed sequential lever operated gears without center differential. Then we can tell all the sophistication we want. The engine is an engine that has a huge cost where the ALS system (ed. Anti Lag System) is the same as the Rally2, since you can't have “Fresh Air” as it once was.

In a current moment where there is no money, I believe that making spaceships, because this is what it is, with certain extreme sophistications and with incredible costs like the hybrid system does not make much sense. Especially for a system that is used to move the cars to service in full electric mode and to have, between yes and no, additional power in the special stage, but the drivers declare that they detach it because it is easier for them to drive.

I wonder if we did the right thing and I take my share of the blame for having these cars here, because I was there too, despite having fought against it until the majority prevailed. We have no new manufacturers and we don't know if we will have any soon."


Yet the drivers themselves speak of rallies as the essence of motorsport and the images prove it. Yet we are no longer able to intrigue someone to wake up early in the morning, pack a backpack and go on trial.

"I would never do this again because we are in 2022 and we must remember that the 80s have passed for forty years. I keep saying it. It is useless that we continue to want to convince people that the past is beautiful. The past is over.

Let us ask ourselves: how do we bring to people what we have today with the tools we have today?

I take the liberty of saying one thing and I say: those of F1, who will be ugly, bad and unpleasant in the eyes of those of rallies, however, since Liberty Media arrived, he said "well gentlemen, now we do because we are continuing to talk to each other. us and to be self-referential ". And it is the same mistake we are making as we keep talking about rallies. All nice but outside the rallies nobody gives a damn, so you have to take someone who comes from outside who knows how to do real communication and says that now it is done like this.

F1 started using social media, Youtube, Netflix and all these things it does and, magic magic, now it goes to America. Because? Because they presented F1 in a different way than the stereotypical one that has been going on for years and today they like the same product. Then they made cars that know how to be more spectacular with less suffering in the wake thanks to studies paid for by the promoter. Not the FIA. Liberty Media invested some money, hired people, to do some studies and take it to a higher level of showmanship.

We keep talking, wondering how to do the best rallies with people who have been in rallies for 50 years and they keep telling each other that rallies are good. Okay, let's carry on but the guy across the street hasn't the faintest idea who these people are.

We make real reports, meetings with the drivers as it should be. Truly spectacular and well-known montages. People get passionate and go to see them and see them again. In Formula 1 you have your Coca Cola, lounges, sponsors and everything becomes a show. In rallies we take people far away to eat the dust and they don't give a damn."


Yet attempts like Ypres and Monza didn't go all that well, did they? Didn't they show something different than what rallies are?

"It was full. People care and whoever pays the ticket saves the race, but what really matters is the all-round visibility. Those who bring the money are the sponsors, the ones who pay for the TV rights. World F1 teams also get money based on TV rights, World Rally teams also pay for the air they breathe. Explain to me how a new manufacturer is attracted to a sport where: there is no visibility, he has spectators on the side of the road and maybe with an exit you kill someone, I have hospitality for sponsors but I often don't use them because the cars they go out in the morning and come back in the evening.

What show do I do in the service park? What's in there? Is there anyone who has raised the problem? No, there is All Live. They will write it on the plaque the day the rallies die: "but they had All Live"

https://www.rallyssimo.it/2022/05/28/rallyssimo-incontra-andrea-adamo/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Sounds like the Rally1 hybrid is also part of the reason he left. His heart clearly wasn't in it from the start.

[WRCStan]

Strange he put up Rally2+ over the existing cars whilst mentioning no new manufacturers have joined and the promotion of the sport is terrible. Rally2+ will sort that? Skoda, Citroen, VW... don't even want to do WRC2. If he wants to tackle the other restrictions of who can homologate a car, who can build a car, who can run a car, please continue talking Mr Adamo, we may find common ground. Also, would love to task him as regulator + promotor, what would he change?

Wish somebody would put me straight on who wanted the Hybrid units. Can't remember if I read they belong to the FIA, who have issued a certain number out to each team for the season or that was done to contain costs/manufacture.

[wyler]

basically it says that rally2+ would be best, and then says rally1 are just rally2+ with costly hybrid...funny.

about the f1 style rally there's no need to comment more. his "fake rally test" speaks by his own...

[Sergiow]

Strange he put up Rally2+ over the existing cars whilst mentioning no new manufacturers have joined and the promotion of the sport is terrible. Rally2+ will sort that? Skoda, Citroen, VW... don't even want to do WRC2. If he wants to tackle the other restrictions of who can homologate a car, who can build a car, who can run a car, please continue talking Mr Adamo, we may find common ground.

In the same rallysimo.it interview Adamo touches the subject of Hyundai customer racing:
"A time when I found myself building Hyundai's Customer Racing from scratch, hiring people, managing budgets. With the first R5 I technically managed a project that had already been started and was already in an advanced state, correcting as much as possible what I thought was wrong and at the same time organizing the workshop and managing the budget dynamics here too. Meanwhile, in July 2016, the TCR project began, a rather complex moment".

When you look at the current Rally Italia Sardegna, there are 36 Rally2 cars in the entry list, including a whopping 7 by Toksport (Mikkelsen, Gryazin, Férnandez, Bulacia (x2), Ingram + Pajari) so without a doubt the customer racing is the backbone of WRC. The big question here is: why has Toyota no customer racing in WRC?

[the sniper]

"What show do I do in the service park? What's in there? Is there anyone who has raised the problem? No, there is All Live. They will write it on the plaque the day the rallies die: "but they had All Live"[/I]

https://www.rallyssimo.it/2022/05/28/rallyssimo-incontra-andrea-adamo/

That statement may be so, but I'm not sure of the extent of what he's seemingly suggesting regarding the nature of events.

I wonder what rallying people who argue that rallying shouldn't really go anywhere anymore make of the profoundly more successful, cycling stage races, which haven't sold out (or sold out for no value, in WRC's case) their format. Those are still everything in scope that rallying has given up... WRC people would have turned the Tour De France into three days around the Champs-Élysées! Off topic for this thread though. Thanks for the translation.

That rallying can't be what it was is true, if only for logistical/safety reasons, but that doesn't mean it needs to be fundamentally different.

[Sergiow]

In some way Adamo is right about the F1 style rally: just compare the service parks of Monte Carlo, Sardegna, Ypres or Monza with those of Finland or Portugal: would you like to invite your hospitality sponsors to a service park situated in an Industrial area? Check the Service Park in Alghero on friday and saturday night and there is truly a wonderful crowded atmosphere. But Adamo is wrong about All live which currently makes the difference with F1: I am not a paying customer to All Live but its currently free service gets me informed with everything I need being live on the stages, including comments of the drivers right after the end of each stage. For a paying subscription you get the moving images as well if you like :)

[AndyRAC]

That statement may be so, but I'm not sure of the extent of what he's seemingly suggesting regarding the nature of events.

I wonder what rallying people who argue that rallying shouldn't really go anywhere anymore make of the profoundly more successful, cycling stage races, which haven't sold out (or sold out for no value, in WRC's case) their format. Those are still everything in scope that rallying has given up... WRC people would have turned the Tour De France into three days around the Champs-Élysées! Off topic for this thread though. Thanks for the translation.

That rallying can't be what it was is true, if only for logistical/safety reasons, but that doesn't mean it needs to be fundamentally different.

Other sports don't dare mess around with their historical events, that's how they've become iconic. I often joke if the WRC bosses ran the WEC, they'd make Le Mans a 6 hour race on the Bugatti circuit. Or change the cycling 'monuments' into 180-200km races. Cycling purists are aghast when Strade Bianchi is called a modern 'monument', as it's only 186km.

Sadly, those in charge of the WRC don't care for the 'classic' events - and they have been made to fit a generic format. You can't keep changing the sport (particularly for TV) - or you end up with something more akin to multi stage World RX.

As for All Live, well I did laugh when I read that comment.......Too many have been convinced All Live is the answer to the sports problems. It's not.....

[AnttiL]

So rallying should still be long travel sections and driving tests like it was in the 50's?

Quite funny that Adamo would want WRC to be more service-park centric, while many people want the opposite. Maybe the current solution is the happy medium where we have the cars three times a day in the service park, but also doing "endurance" loops. Maybe we should open a new topic about that.

EDIT: here https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?42702-Future-format-of-WRC-events

[WRCStan]

In the same rallysimo.it interview Adamo touches the subject of Hyundai customer racing:
"A time when I found myself building Hyundai's Customer Racing from scratch, hiring people, managing budgets. With the first R5 I technically managed a project that had already been started and was already in an advanced state, correcting as much as possible what I thought was wrong and at the same time organizing the workshop and managing the budget dynamics here too. Meanwhile, in July 2016, the TCR project began, a rather complex moment".

When you look at the current Rally Italia Sardegna, there are 36 Rally2 cars in the entry list, including a whopping 7 by Toksport (Mikkelsen, Gryazin, Férnandez, Bulacia (x2), Ingram + Pajari) so without a doubt the customer racing is the backbone of WRC. The big question here is: why has Toyota no customer racing in WRC?

Toyota are the only ones using WRC exclusively to promote their brand and are pumping ridiculous money into the sport. You can see this from how many flags they hand out at rallies, how much support they give the organisers and even how highly regarded Toyoda holds WRC. That is their operation.

Edit: Just remembered Toyota are the only ones with a Rally1 customer in Toyoda's friend's son.

No denying customer racing and privateers are huge part of any motorsport these days. What's this got to do with Rally1 v Rally2/+? Only a series production manufacturer can build a Rally1 car. Only when there is a corresponding manufacturer entry can a team/customer enter a Rally1 car. Manufacturers are in a Rally2 exodus too. So mentioning WRC2 and Toksport isn't really helpful, as no WRC2 team is eligible for Rally1 builds who isn't there already. The 'who can build' point really is the same for the safe future of Rally2/3/4/5.

[AnttiL]

I have to say the competitive element of the hybrid box has vanished a lot since the start of the season. In Monte it was exciting to watch the graphics and see when they load and when use the boost, then in Sweden we had some failures on hybrid units, but ever since Croatia I've completely forgotten that the cars are hybrid...the drivers don't talk about it in the interviews, there's no tactics with different mappings etc.

[EstWRC]

I have to say the competitive element of the hybrid box has vanished a lot since the start of the season. In Monte it was exciting to watch the graphics and see when they load and when use the boost, then in Sweden we had some failures on hybrid units, but ever since Croatia I've completely forgotten that the cars are hybrid...the drivers don't talk about it in the interviews, there's no tactics with different mappings etc.

Agreed. Same here. Often times I forgot it’s there this season

How did Tänak say during one rally: ”useless extra weight” or something like that

[AnttiL]

Agreed. Same here. Often times I forgot it’s there this season

How did Tänak say during one rally: ”useless extra weight” or something like that

I mean obviously it increases the performance of the cars but it's not visible to the spectators.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It seems like many of us suspected, the hybrid element is pure lip-service and green-washing. All it's really done is make the cars faster with the extra e-motor boost and there's never a sight of the cars in electric-only mode.

[rallyfiend]

It seems like many of us suspected, the hybrid element is pure lip-service and green-washing. All it's really done is make the cars faster with the extra e-motor boost and there's never a sight of the cars in electric-only mode.

ha ha ha.

Two sentences. And you manage to contradict yourself. That's genuinely impressive.

Sentence 1: Hybrid has done nothing

Sentence 2: Hybrid has made the cars faster

[WRCStan]

Agreed it's not what I imagined around strategies etc either, but not sure it's a bad thing if it just increases the amount of yeah-buts and what-ifs. Could be it's a testament to the equipment that we can forget about it, the conversations about how hard they will have to brake and whether the battery will hold its charge being answered. Still, shame that hybrid telem is not on the onboards for a nerd to compile and compare.

It's not pretty watching them struggle to move the cars in the service park so not surprised we don't see them much. Has there even been any zones on the road as was canvassed?

[J4MIE]

Agreed it's not what I imagined around strategies etc either, but not sure it's a bad thing if it just increases the amount of yeah-buts and what-ifs. Could be it's a testament to the equipment that we can forget about it, the conversations about how hard they will have to brake and whether the battery will hold its charge being answered. Still, shame that hybrid telem is not on the onboards for a nerd to compile and compare.

It's not pretty watching them struggle to move the cars in the service park so not surprised we don't see them much. Has there even been any zones on the road as was canvassed?

Only extremely minimal distances, often around eg service area or power stage podium. Usually not very far, think Safari had about 3km per loop or thereabouts, which was distance out of and return to service.

Far far from what I was expecting when the cars were announced. They didn’t need to be faster.

[DoN_cz]

For example on Sardinia, the Rally1 cars were arriving into the Media zone in HEV mode. I mean not only inside the Media zone, but already in the street before it (I suppose the last few hundred meters). Have to say, it didn't look (and sound) good. The top class of motorsport cars arriving nearly without anyone noticing...the Rally2 cars caught more attention from random tourists...

[AnttiL]

It seems like many of us suspected, the hybrid element is pure lip-service and green-washing. All it's really done is make the cars faster with the extra e-motor boost and there's never a sight of the cars in electric-only mode.

I agree that it's a bit of greenwashing to try to convince the car manufacturers. But in reality the new fuel is the biggest "green" thing. And in theory the electricity for the batteries could be from wind power ;)

The Rally1 rules originally had longer HEV liaisons. In Monte they were omitted and FIA said it was to give more breathing space for the teams who were there with new cars...but now we're halfway into the season and hybrid units have worked fine after Sweden, what's next?

[mknight]

I agree that it's a bit of greenwashing to try to convince the car manufacturers.

I dislike the misuse or terminology here.
Nobody is really pretending that the new hybrid units "save environment" / make the WRC more eco-friendly.

There is a small point with the electric only mode that is meant to not disturb neigbours (but you see here some people consider it bad that a rally car doesn't disturb everyone in the neigborhood on a road section, those should talk with rally organizers).

The main reason for the hybrid is so that manus can show that the car is "similar" to what they are trying to sell.
Problem is that hybrid (especially mild-hybrid) is now "old" established tech found in basically every car.

[AndyRAC]

Well yes, for example, the Toyota Prius hybrid is 20+ years old......

And the WRC is trying to tell us how effective Hybrids are....A bit late for that.

[wyler]

I dislike the misuse or terminology here.
Nobody is really pretending that the new hybrid units "save environment" / make the WRC more eco-friendly.


really?

"Following the sport’s ‘Rally with Purpose’ strategy, all the top cars starting the Croatia Rally (21 - 24 April) are powered by highly efficient hybrid technology,"

"We are fully committed to a sustainable future of our sport,” affirmed WRC Promoter managing director Jona Siebel. “Hybrid technology for the Rally1 cars and renewable fuel are major steps for the 2022 season."

“The Croatia Rally’s initiative to significantly reduce the event’s carbon footprint and reach a three-star rating with the FIA environmental accreditation programme opens up a new chapter.”

"This gives organisers the tools to significantly reduce emissions, for example, inside the service park or in urban areas the rally cars pass through en route to competitive sections."


https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2022/wrc/fia-world-rally-championship-fully-committed-to-sustainable-future/

[AnttiL]

I could definitely see some car manufacturer having X billion euros for marketing hybrid cars and 0 euros for marketing ICE cars, and that would be a way to keep the money going into rallying with hybrid cars.

[WRCStan]

really?

"Following the sport’s ‘Rally with Purpose’ strategy, all the top cars starting the Croatia Rally (21 - 24 April) are powered by highly efficient hybrid technology,"

"We are fully committed to a sustainable future of our sport,” affirmed WRC Promoter managing director Jona Siebel. “Hybrid technology for the Rally1 cars and renewable fuel are major steps for the 2022 season."

“The Croatia Rally’s initiative to significantly reduce the event’s carbon footprint and reach a three-star rating with the FIA environmental accreditation programme opens up a new chapter.”

"This gives organisers the tools to significantly reduce emissions, for example, inside the service park or in urban areas the rally cars pass through en route to competitive sections."


https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2022/wrc/fia-world-rally-championship-fully-committed-to-sustainable-future/

One more: https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/fia-and-wrc-take-360-degree-approach-to-sustainable-future/

Opening line: "New plug-in hybrid-powered Rally1 competition cars, 100 per cent fossil-free fuel, sustainable energy supplies and safer spaceframe chassis are part of the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA) and WRC Promoter’s commitment to a greener future."

I'd agree with mknight that nobody is really believing (or cares) that the new hybrid units "save environment" / make the WRC more eco-friendly.

[Kenneth]

Well yes, for example, the Toyota Prius hybrid is 20+ years old......

And the WRC is trying to tell us how effective Hybrids are....A bit late for that.

"First electric car is 130+ years old and Formula E is trying to tell us how effective electric vehicles are"

[Fast Eddie WRC]

ha ha ha.

Two sentences. And you manage to contradict yourself. That's genuinely impressive.

Sentence 1: Hybrid has done nothing

Sentence 2: Hybrid has made the cars faster

Nope. The 'done nothing' bit refers to the pre-season promotion of hybrid as a more eco-friendly element which I stand by.

[becher]

"First electric car is 130+ years old and Formula E is trying to tell us how effective electric vehicles are"

This! With the logic that the Prius has been around for 25 years and Hybrids are therefore old (useless) technology, we might as well ditch the wheel, because it is old technology.

[lmmjvss]

In the end this whole hybrid thing is just to "protect" all the brands in the sport: The series itself, the shareholders, the sponsors, the manufacturers... I honestly dont believe FIA, WRC, RedBull, Tanak, Craig, Colin Clark, DirtFish, Pirelli are that innocent thinking they are "saving the planet" with all this BS. ANd I hope Motorsport fans that are interested in this topic really dig and chat with each other to realize that motorsport is not a REAL "problem"... and its also not the place where the world problems will be solved. Its just Propaganda. I imagine FIA know this but they gotta follow this "Agenda" (haha) in order to keep its credibility in this world...
Like.. "Yes, its a new world, new people, we gotta go this way otherwise the money will not come anymore, period."

[WRCStan]

In the end this whole hybrid thing is just to "protect" all the brands in the sport: The series itself, the shareholders, the sponsors, the manufacturers... I honestly dont believe FIA, WRC, RedBull, Tanak, Craig, Colin Clark, DirtFish, Pirelli are that innocent thinking they are "saving the planet" with all this BS. ANd I hope Motorsport fans that are interested in this topic really dig and chat with each other to realize that motorsport is not a REAL "problem"... and its also not the place where the world problems will be solved. Its just Propaganda. I imagine FIA know this but they gotta follow this "Agenda" (haha) in order to keep its credibility in this world...
Like.. "Yes, its a new world, new people, we gotta go this way otherwise the money will not come anymore, period."

IMO not many motorsport fans care about saving the planet either, but they see that motorsport has to follow rules, have the best modern tech available and catch the zeitgeist to be feasible, sustainable, relevant and entertaining.

On these topics: I'd almost pay someone to study the private jets leaving Cagliari airport on Sunday evening after Extreme E had finished, or just to tell me for definite that the Sainzs, Loebs and Al-Attiyahs are slumming it on scheduled flights. Somehow I think not.

[lmmjvss]

IMO not many motorsport fans care about saving the planet either.

True. TBH even most of the actvists dont reeeaaaally care about "saving the planet". Its more about narratives and belonging and "saying that you care". You know, those stuff. And the people who are reaaaally trying are heroes and awesome examples, but... for example... That guy collecting plastic from the ocean. He is REALLY trying. Fine, The boat is "bad for the environment" (of course) but he is really trying to clean that mess a little bit. Is it possible? Not really haha its him and his boat vs the world. So, Idk about saving the world... Its all screwed up already. It is getting hotter, the oceans will become more acid, the sea levels are rising and will rise more, politics will get worst and I honestly think we will have a 3rd world war.
Meh... At least we have some racing to watch while waiting for the SUN TO EXPAND AND EAT THE WHOLE PLANET in 2 bi years

[Fast Eddie WRC]

All the hype and discussions about the hybrid and now it hardly ever gets a mention during the rallies. The info is on the screen of WRC+ but is totally ignored. The use and deployment of the battery power isn't even spoken of by the teams and drivers.

[mknight]

All the hype and discussions about the hybrid and now it hardly ever gets a mention during the rallies. The info is on the screen of WRC+ but is totally ignored. The use and deployment of the battery power isn't even spoken of by the teams and drivers.
It was stated as goal before this season that it should be as seemless and simple for the drivers.

A bit of a missed opportunity imo, some more freedom and a manual "boost button" could maybe lead to more interesting strategies.

But then again the "lack of entertainment" feel right now is mainly due to the Kalle+Toyota dominance vs Hyundai reliability+Solberg mess and MSport business operation.

[Danny0405]

Well, we can already sum up the season.

Toyota car:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Panzer_IV_1.jpg/1200px-Panzer_IV_1.jpg

Hyundai car:
https://resize-parismatch.lanmedia.fr/r/375,250,FFFFFF,forcex,center-middle/img/var/pm/public/media/image/2022/03/08/00/Voiture-Oui-Oui-2.jpg?VersionId=3bl34T4.OPdR7YtJ2VPOP3UlKHnGqC6R

[Danny0405]

And I can add

M-Sport car when driven by Loeb
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp/6n9RnBeY/s6/red-bull-racing-rb18-1.jpg

Same car driven by the others
https://cdn-s-www.lalsace.fr/images/1C611BB8-9279-485E-BACE-7577B6B3569C/NW_raw/le-niva-est-devenue-une-vraie-legende-photo-lada-1595592238.jpg

[lmmjvss]

All the hype and discussions about the hybrid and now it hardly ever gets a mention during the rallies. The info is on the screen of WRC+ but is totally ignored. The use and deployment of the battery power isn't even spoken of by the teams and drivers.

Remember the first year in F1 with Hybrid engines? They used to have more indicators in some graphics.. They even started to show the "% of fuel" in the cars, probably to show how the hybrid was making it more fuel efficient.
But I dont even remember these things being shown by round 3 or 4 haha. I may be wrong cuz I was not following F1 thaaaat close by the time, but those graphics about the hybrid are gone.
Sometimes on onboards you can see on the driver steeringwheel some graphics about the regeneration of the Hybrids.. It looks interesting, wish they could show us more of that. (F1)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Maybe the teams got all the hybrid deployment maps sorted and there's not a lot to do any more. And the drivers have already adapted and using it is now second-nature. A bit of a shame as it could've been a good area of interest and skill if it was more difficult.

[RallyFan13]

Acropolis Rally 2022 Rally1 Highlights
https://youtu.be/pgars0X8Q3g

[WRCStan]

One for the nerds, Homologations list was published yesterday and includes updates so far for "Ra1-"

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/voiturescomplet_sept.2022_0.pdf

[becher]

In the post Safari podcast of Dirtfish they mentioned that both Toyota and M Sport are on Reiger dampers and that Toyota has people at Reiger to develop the dampers for them (possibly 5/7 post shaker rigs,...) and M Sport doesn't.

I was under the impression that all WRC teams have dampers developed specifically for them together with their supplier. Could it really be that M-Sport is buying of the shelf dampers (or at least internals) from Reiger?

[Kenneth]

Part of Rally1 ruleset is that dampers are closer to Rally2 than WRC. So for sure, I can see them use shelf dampers.

[becher]

Since I started with this topic, what dampers is Hyundai running? Anybody knows?

[becher]

https://www.pmw-magazine.com/features/wrc-2022-a-technical-review.html

An old article, but still interesting stuff about chassis, initial aero development and initial hybrid strategy development.

[AMSS]

Since I started with this topic, what dampers is Hyundai running? Anybody knows?

ZF Sachs

[becher]

ZF Sachs

Thanks!

[becher]

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2023/12/11/whats-new-in-the-2024-technical-regulations-snorkels-cut-outs-and-other/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=whats-new-in-the-2024-technical-regulations-snorkels-cut-outs-and-other


Power steering is mandatory in EV mode from 2024, teams will move to electric power steering maybe?

Also those floor cut outs sound more like additional protection is allowed?

[TypeR]

Massive improvements, that will bring thousands of new spectators to the sport..

Let's make new detailed technical regulations, but oh wait.. let's connect them with stupid (reduced) joker system.

[Eli]

I know we said it here a thousand times but honestly for the most part it just seems the FIA are waiting for the WRC to be dead with doing the bare minimum.

[ictus]

Now this is BIG news:
"Rally1 type cars without hybrid unit are accepted"
page 23:
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2024_wrc_sr_15_dec_2023_v2.pdf

[wwbroe]

Now this is BIG news:
"Rally1 type cars without hybrid unit are accepted"
page 23:
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2024_wrc_sr_15_dec_2023_v2.pdf

That is indeed news, however there must be an additional weight in the same place as the hybrid unit, weight should be equal or superior to hybrid unit.

[WRCStan]

Drinks for everyone if a non-hybrid Rally1 actually starts in 2024.

[TypeR]

I believe it's more like ,,Wilson's rule''..
So rally1 cars can compete on national rallies.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/rally1-cars-on-national-events-key-for-m-sports-future/

[RS]

This reminds of the old RRC cars. I'm not sure of the point.. almost the same cost as a WRC1 car but without the performance. Plus won't the existing engine mapping and gearing be designed for existing hybrids?

[ictus]

This reminds of the old RRC cars. I'm not sure of the point.. almost the same cost as a WRC1 car but without the performance. Plus won't the existing engine mapping and gearing be designed for existing hybrids?

the "hybrid boost" lasts only a few seconds at once, and only at full throttle aplication, so the cars run more time without it than with it.
Plus remember the small time differences on stages when drivers claimed they had no hybrid

[Mirek]

Just why? What's the point of all that?

Again and again they spend time and effort on rule changes which are completely pointless and bring nothing for the future of the sport.

[becher]

Just why? What's the point of all that?

Again and again they spend time and effort on rule changes which are completely pointless and bring nothing for the future of the sport.

It's first and foremost to benefit M Sport, as Willson was lobbying for this, if anyone will actually rent/buy a car from them to run in national championship remains to be seen.

[Kenneth]

Could be good choice for drivers that wants to try out Rally1 or for teams that want to try out WRC2 drivers on one event. The question is how much cheaper they will be.

But I can definitely see the costs of renting them for one-off start going down as less infrastructure will be needed on site.