Rally1 hybrid cars (2022-)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Be fair, Dirtfish just quote Matt Wilson in that article and dont comment on his statements about how the new Puma performed and how it felt.

And we all want news and info about the latest cars and we should be glad M-Sport are being so open with their testing and speaking to the media.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

By the way, when are we going to get any more from Hyundai and Adamo about their 2022 car ? They cant test it totally at their own secret facility.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Fourmaux on the Puma after the first tarmac test:
https://rallyinsight.com/2021/08/31/fourmaux-reveals-extra-challenges-of-hybrid-rally1-puma/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

More from Fourmaux:
“Really, I can take a lot of pleasure from driving this [Puma Rally1]. When you have the full hybrid, the car feels incredible – so much pace.

“I am still learning a little bit with the hybrid, like the other drivers, but it’s really interesting to work on the strategy and to play a little bit with when you are going to use it. It’s really something new and another interesting challenge for next season.”

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Official test vid on WRC.com
https://www.wrc.com/en/video/player/?videoId=919758

[EstWRC]

The World Rally Championship has outlined further details regarding the use of hybrid power next year and its move to reach carbon net-zero status by 2030.


https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/wrc-reveals-further-details-on-hybrid-future/6662252/

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-hybrid-fits-into-wrcs-360-degree-sustainability-plan/

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/neuville-nobody-has-the-balls-to-stand-up-to-fia-over-rally1/

Neuville dislikes the new rules

[mknight]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/neuville-nobody-has-the-balls-to-stand-up-to-fia-over-rally1/

Neuville dislikes the new rules

Sounds like a small boy when they take his favourite toy from him..

Sure the new cars are likely slower and harder to drive/turn and change gears in.

But while the current cars saw great competition in 2017-2019 they also led to the reduction of WRC to two competetive teams and kept Skoda from entering even though they were about to.

So to stay alive WRC simply had to change.

[lmmjvss]

IDK about you guys but Im still not buying that WRC has only 2 (+ford) manufacturers because of the costs or because they are not "green enough"... but the "solutions" would probably kill what WRC is all about
=[

[AndyRAC]

There could be other reasons....but nobody wants to discuss them.

[AnttiL]

You guys also need to remember that WRC is not a closed environment and the WRC rules are not the only reason manufacturer or spectator interest changes in some direction. The world around WRC changes as well.

[pantealex]

You guys also need to remember that WRC is not a closed environment and the WRC rules are not the only reason manufacturer or spectator interest changes in some direction. The world around WRC changes as well.

Have to admit that this is also true.

[1988senna]

I wish to know . if the 2022 car with hybrid unit drive like the f1 car with kers??
release the extra power for ten seconds and then start to recharge to release again .is that the mode??

[Rally Hokkaido]

I wish to know . if the 2022 car with hybrid unit drive like the f1 car with kers??
release the extra power for ten seconds and then start to recharge to release again .is that the mode?? Yes, it appears to be a Kers type system. Here is the only explanation of its planned operation I have read. https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/fia-and-wrc-take-360-degree-approach-to-sustainable-future/

[flat_right]

Martin Järveoja gave an interview to Estonian media after Greece and they (didn't understand if Hyundai or all teams) are arguing/in discussions with the FIA about the co-driver's seat position which is unnatural and uncomfortable and if FIA would accept changes then also it would be more safe in Järveoja's opinion.

General question was that if they have been already testing the new hybrid and he said that there has been some km's of testing but the end of the season will be very busy as the cars have to be ready in January.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Great write-up of the latest hybrid WRC info by WRC Wings:
https://www.wrcwings.tech/2021/09/14/2022-rally1-cars-hybrid-system-operation-aero-implications/

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-could-complete-2022-line-up-after-finland-adamo/


“The fact is that we are testing for sure, it’s not a matter of if we are not testing, but it’s also true we don’t have many things to show,” Adamo admitted.

“The bodywork and the other things are not really representative of anything, we prefer to stay a bit hidden.

“I really think that we can get something ready to show in November.

[mknight]

Makes sense as the current "mule" bodywork aero is kind of non-existing.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It could be a double bluff by Adamo re the bodywork. As WRC Wings points out, the hybrid power boost could make having a low-drag car a bigger benefit.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/neuville-frustrated-nobody-has-balls-to-challenge-fia-over-wrcs-rally1-future/6662907/

I wonder if Neuville feels any different after the latest test of the Hyundai Rally1 ?

[EstWRC]

Martin Järveoja gave an interview to Estonian media after Greece and they (didn't understand if Hyundai or all teams) are arguing/in discussions with the FIA about the co-driver's seat position which is unnatural and uncomfortable and if FIA would accept changes then also it would be more safe in Järveoja's opinion.

General question was that if they have been already testing the new hybrid and he said that there has been some km's of testing but the end of the season will be very busy as the cars have to be ready in January.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-co-drivers-concerned-with-rally1-seat-position/

[EstWRC]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/neuville-frustrated-nobody-has-balls-to-challenge-fia-over-wrcs-rally1-future/6662907/

I wonder if Neuville feels any different after the latest test of the Hyundai Rally1 ?

Why?

[bomber21]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-co-drivers-concerned-with-rally1-seat-position/
Maybe I have not followed the topic, but why do co-drivers sit so low? And when this started?

[dimviii]

center of gravity,and protection from crashes.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Why?

Car development updated after months of no real-road running, plus rumours of a big suspension re-design.

[EstWRC]

Car development updated after months of no real-road running, plus rumours of a big suspension re-design.

FIA didn’t change the regulations meanwhile…

[Fast Eddie WRC]

FIA didn’t change the regulations meanwhile…

Like they were going to change them because of one driver's opinion. Only Neuville is complaining, the others all seem pretty happy with the new cars. He will come round by Monte Carlo.

[EstWRC]

In an interview with Auto Hebdo , the transalpine official explained that, despite not seeing so much news of Hyundai tests, they are working. "By the time of the Acropolis Rally we already had four tests done on asphalt" , he assured.

He acknowledged discretion in testing, "We test, but it's not to show in press releases. It seems to me that our competitors are very interested in showing their cars on social media."


https://iris-cpidt-pt.translate.goog/publishing20/!site.go?publishing=332&p=.20055&id=61119&_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=et&_x_tr_pto=nui,elem

[EstWRC]

Hyundai Motorsport team principal Andrea Adamo has revealed that an all-new i20 Rally1 will break cover at the end of next month.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundais-full-rally1-car-to-break-cover-next-month/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Hyundai Motorsport team principal Andrea Adamo has revealed that an all-new i20 Rally1 will break cover at the end of next month.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundais-full-rally1-car-to-break-cover-next-month/

That means they're around 4 months behind M-Sport who had their Rally1 Puma testing in July.

[EstWRC]

If you believe everything that adamo says, then yes

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If you believe everything that adamo says, then yes

What else have you got to go on ?

We know for a fact they are behind due to the delay in getting the Hyundai bosses go-ahead for 2022.

Plus look at their car on the latest test.

And Dirtfish:
Let’s look to the future and to 2022. It’s increasingly common knowledge in the service park that Hyundai is a long way behind M-Sport Ford and Toyota. That’s not rocket science, we all saw how much later Hyundai’s 2022 test mule broke cover. The LWB Fiesta was moving just into March. The i20 turned a wheel in May.

[Lancia Stratos]

We know for a fact they are behind due to the delay in getting the Hyundai bosses go-ahead for 2022.



Mmmm..........

Was it Adamo that said that...........

[AnttiL]

I would claim that in the opposite end of the spectrum, M-Sport deliberately wanted to be first to get the car out running in the public. But all teams can do secret testing as well, it's not everytime that testing occurs that we get footage.

[mknight]

Yes, as Adamo himself commented "some of our competitors are very busy showing the car on social media".
Meaning primarily MSport.

Ever since Goodwood and a bit before their social media are basically only about the new car. This is likely due to a mix of these reasons:
- Not much to show for with current car/drivers
- PR for Ford
- PR for attracting sponsors

But again, as repeated multiple times it boggles my mind how Ford can be satisfied in putting any money into this if they show up in January with (Breen), Fourmaux and Greensmith combination....

[TypeR]

whaat should they do then? I'm pretty sure Ford knows the situation very well and maybe is ok with it.

Didn't get any current top driver, then didn't. Fourmaux is their young hope(good deal, moneywise) and I'm sure he can fight for podiums next season.


M-Sport tested their car first in public and shows it quite often to people. PR works.

[mknight]

If they really had money for the likes of Tanak and Neuville they could likely get all of Breen+Lappi+Mikkelsen (and Fourmaux in 4th car) for the same ammount.

I like Fourmaux, but some of the hype around him is approaching Solberg levels. You know that in his (so far very short) career he only won ONE international rally (Canarias 2020 with rain/tire lottery) in his clas. (Trying) to win last stage(s) before PS when everyone is cruising is good PR, but doesn't show that much. Sure he can be good in the future.

Anyway, off topic.

[EstWRC]

Neuville on it again

Thierry Neuville expects the World Rally Championship’s new 2022 Rally1 hybrid cars will require a different driving style, labelling the experience as “Formula E driving on a rally road”.


When asked for his feedback on driving the Rally1 car in a media briefing ahead of this weekend’s Rally Spain, Neuville said: “It is Formula E driving on a rally road.

“It is very early to say how it is going to be. Many things are not working yet as they should be with the hybrid system, to get real feedback is very difficult.

“For me so far, it is going to be a change [of driving style].


“The target is that you need to recover energy under braking to be able to discharge the [hybrid power] in acceleration. If you don’t reach the target under braking, you can’t have additional power on the exit, which makes the whole thing inconsistent and unpredictable.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/neuville-unpredictable-rally1-cars-like-formula-e-on-a-rally-road/6686508/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[doubled1978]

He really doesn’t like them does he!

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

More like LMP1/LMH rally version.. xD

Sent from my M2010J19CG using Tapatalk

[Oliverk]

Tänak said the same in newspaper article couple of days ago.
https://sport.postimees.ee/7360866/ott-tanak-uutest-reeglitest-olen-pettunud

[Fast Eddie WRC]

He really doesn’t like them does he!

I wonder if Neuville is finding the 2022 change hardest as he's so unused to it. He's basically been in an i20 WRC since 2014 while everyone else has been swapping teams/cars several times in that time.

[EstWRC]

Tänak said the same in newspaper article couple of days ago.
https://sport.postimees.ee/7360866/ott-tanak-uutest-reeglitest-olen-pettunud

Is it worth the whole article?

[Päss1928]

Is it worth the whole article?

Don't be silly, no. A couple of vague sentences and basically says the new cars are heavier and slower, and agrees with Mäkinen's criticism.

[TypeR]

maybe Hyundai is having problems and is behind after all..
Talking now doesn't change anything anymore.

[fiscorpun]

Can the teams paint each car with different colors? I mean, its was cool to see a green/white Toyota haha
All the 3 cars from each team have the same colors, its so boring IMO
They could please more sponsors with diferent cars, no?

[Fredouye]

Like M-Sport in 2017 ?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211017/766a92adec232856a8d3c39278606ccb.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211017/0fefc30e2ce93fc8968d2e159d62dd6a.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211017/9a81b5033ad60035dbec2853fe43b79f.jpg

[lluisva555]

Neuville on it again

Thierry Neuville expects the World Rally Championship’s new 2022 Rally1 hybrid cars will require a different driving style, labelling the experience as “Formula E driving on a rally road”.


When asked for his feedback on driving the Rally1 car in a media briefing ahead of this weekend’s Rally Spain, Neuville said: “It is Formula E driving on a rally road.

[/url]

It's me who made the question about his feedback, as well as to other WRC drivers. Tomorrow we will post an article with all their answers, hope you enjoy it

[AnttiL]

It's me who made the question about his feedback, as well as to other WRC drivers. Tomorrow we will post an article with all their answers, hope you enjoy it

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2021/10/18/what-the-wrc-drivers-think-about-the-2022-hybrid-cars/

Excellent job!

[seb_sh]

more power and more sideways hopefully

[lluisva555]

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2021/10/18/what-the-wrc-drivers-think-about-the-2022-hybrid-cars/

Excellent job!

Thank you very much, I thought it would be interesting to have their opinion... at least as much as secrecy allows...

[denkimi]

With such complicated new cars i fear we may see complete dominance from one team.

[mknight]

With such complicated new cars i fear we may see complete dominance from one team.

At the start of the current car era engineers (thing it was people from MSport) predicted how they will develop rather well.
a) people will copy each others cars - this was mostly in aero terms
b) finetuning the setup for every stage/road

This b) was what made MSport irrelevant lately cause they didn't have money for all that testing.

With new car it shouldn't be possible to finetune as much (no center diff, simpler front/rear ones).
So while there might be bigger gaps between the cars at first, it is less likely tons of money will matter as much later on.

[denkimi]

At the start of the current car era engineers (thing it was people from MSport) predicted how they will develop rather well.
a) people will copy each others cars - this was mostly in aero terms
b) finetuning the setup for every stage/road

This b) was what made MSport irrelevant lately cause they didn't have money for all that testing.

With new car it shouldn't be possible to finetune as much (no center diff, simpler front/rear ones).
So while there might be bigger gaps between the cars at first, it is less likely tons of money will matter as much later on.
I fear we could see a case like f1 in 2014 and 15, when mercedes won 16 out of 19 races. Or even like 2016 when they won 19 out of 21. Even hundered of millions couldn't fix that.

We loose some old technology that the teams have mastered, but we get the whole unknown hybrid system. Unlike aero, this can't copied easily.

[AnttiL]

I've said this before, it's all unknown. Everyone makes new cars. In 2017 we didn't know what to expect. Everyone thought Citroen is the best and Toyota the worst, but it turned out exactly opposite, and with very small margins, with four first rallies won by different cars. I can only hope the same happens now. It seems M-Sport has advanced the most while Hyundai is struggling, with rumors of a big rebuild after the first public tests, and the worried comments of Tänak and Neuville seem to confirm that rumor.

[AnttiL]

I fear we could see a case like f1 in 2014 and 15, when mercedes won 16 out of 19 races. Or even like 2016 when they won 19 out of 21. Even hundered of millions couldn't fix that.

We loose some old technology that the teams have mastered, but we get the whole unknown hybrid system. Unlike aero, this can't copied easily.

But the hybrid system is the same for everyone...and engines are the same as in the current WRC cars.

[Mirek]

Yes, the cars are much more bound by the rules than those of today and they will be even more similar to each other.

I would personally welcome much more technical freedom. IMHO it's not going against efforts to cut cost (which is questionable anyway). For me it takes much more time and money to make one same thing better than the other than to come with some new ideas others didn't try. Moreover it makes thingsmuch more intweresting and exciting for me (I understand that not for everyone).

[denkimi]

But the hybrid system is the same for everyone...and engines are the same as in the current WRC cars.
but the main issue will be to get the 2 working together well i believe. making it predictable and working well may take many tests and thus lots of money.

that's what neuville is complaining about, it being unpredictable.

[Mackie]

With all this talk about how the Rally1-cars are like the Rally2-cars but with more power, a bit more aero and the hybrid-element...

Wouldn't it make more sense in the long term for the teams to have the developing drivers do more time driving Rally2? No center-diff or active diffs, less aero, 5-speed with stick... Especially Oliver Solberg, but also Katsuta.

The young drivers might also, in the long term, be a better choice due to how easy or hard it might be to cope with how to use the hybrid-system. Sordo, due to his age, might not clic that fast despite his experience. But I might be wrong.

[AnttiL]

With all this talk about how the Rally1-cars are like the Rally2-cars but with more power, a bit more aero and the hybrid-element...

Wouldn't it make more sense in the long term for the teams to have the developing drivers do more time driving Rally2? No center-diff or active diffs, less aero, 5-speed with stick... Especially Oliver Solberg, but also Katsuta.


Yes, especially for Solberg it didn't make much sense to "learn" the current WRC cars. However for Katsuta, I think the problem is that they don't have Toyota's Rally2 car...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Seems the Hyundai Rally1 really is still far behind the others.

The drivers are struggling with their hybrid system, plus they havent even got the test car with its new body and full aero fitted which will still need testing.

Huge work to do to he ready for Monte Carlo 2022, never mind testing it enough to be reliable ... tick, tock.

[SubaruNorway]

With all this talk about how the Rally1-cars are like the Rally2-cars but with more power, a bit more aero and the hybrid-element...

Wouldn't it make more sense in the long term for the teams to have the developing drivers do more time driving Rally2? No center-diff or active diffs, less aero, 5-speed with stick... Especially Oliver Solberg, but also Katsuta.

The young drivers might also, in the long term, be a better choice due to how easy or hard it might be to cope with how to use the hybrid-system. Sordo, due to his age, might not clic that fast despite his experience. But I might be wrong.

Oliver is probably the one that has tested the hybrid the most from what i heard, so he will be fine

[mknight]

His point was that it might have been better to drive Rally2 than to "waste time" learning current WRCs that don't have much common with new cars.

I agree with that. Especially if it's only for an event or two, like that whole tarmac session (test+Alba+test+Spain).

[Rally Hokkaido]

In case you haven't looked at Dirt Fish, today. They have a report on Sebastien Loeb testing the Ford Puma in Spain on Tuesday: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loeb-tests-m-sports-2022-puma-in-spain/ EDIT: See WRC Testing thread for pix

[Mackie]

Oliver is probably the one that has tested the hybrid the most from what i heard, so he will be fine

Yes, I think he will take to that system just fine. It's the other parts of the car that I think he would have gained more from driving the R5/Rally2 some more.

[mknight]

Solans on driving current WRC car:
(from https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-a-last-minute-entrant-impressed-on-his-wrc-debut/ )

"This however was not the hardest thing for Solans to adapt to. He believed finding the correct set-up – with so many diff maps, damper clicks and so on available – “was quite difficult”.

“It takes a lot of time, a lot of stages, a lot of new tries every service,” he said."

[Mirek]

Solans on driving current WRC car:
(from https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-a-last-minute-entrant-impressed-on-his-wrc-debut/ )

"This however was not the hardest thing for Solans to adapt to. He believed finding the correct set-up – with so many diff maps, damper clicks and so on available – “was quite difficult”.

“It takes a lot of time, a lot of stages, a lot of new tries every service,” he said."

There was a nice article from Anthony Warmbold on his blog about the alchemy of the active diffs and how easy it was to fuck it up. Good read for people who don't know :)
http://wrcbehindthestages.blogspot.com/2011/05/chapter-15-differential-extravaganza.html

[Yugo_para_siempre]

I was reading the following from CAR.


"The new car doesn’t share much in common with the Puma road car, however. The new Rally1 rules mean that, for the first time, very few parts of the bodyshell need to be shared with the production car. Only the bonnet, windscreen, tailgate and roofskin need to be carried over, allowing a great deal of freedom with the car’s structure and aerodynamics.

‘The biggest thing [for this project] is that we’re not using a production-based bodyshell,’ says M-Sport director (and former professional rally driver) Malcolm Wilson. ‘We’re usually starting with cutting sheet metal. It’s exciting.’

Part of the reason for moving away from production-based bodyshells is to enable greater safety for the driver and co-driver: the seats have been moved inwards and there is extra protection built into the cockpit’s structure to protect against side impacts."


So this will be the 1st time after Group B that the bodyshell will not be gotten from an actual production car?
This is the reason that this Puma is so much more elegant and compact than the production one.

But is this choice more expensive than to use a bodyshell from an actual production car?

[Mirek]

I was reading the following from CAR.


"The new car doesn’t share much in common with the Puma road car, however. The new Rally1 rules mean that, for the first time, very few parts of the bodyshell need to be shared with the production car. Only the bonnet, windscreen, tailgate and roofskin need to be carried over, allowing a great deal of freedom with the car’s structure and aerodynamics.

‘The biggest thing [for this project] is that we’re not using a production-based bodyshell,’ says M-Sport director (and former professional rally driver) Malcolm Wilson. ‘We’re usually starting with cutting sheet metal. It’s exciting.’

Part of the reason for moving away from production-based bodyshells is to enable greater safety for the driver and co-driver: the seats have been moved inwards and there is extra protection built into the cockpit’s structure to protect against side impacts."


So this will be the 1st time after Group B that the bodyshell will not be gotten from an actual production car?
This is the reason that this Puma is so much more elegant and compact than the production one.

But is this choice more expensive than to use a bodyshell from an actual production car?

Yes, the cars use space frame and no, it's not more expensive. In my opinion it is actually much better option for the teams because they can do what they want without asking modifications of stock production which is incredibly expensive and time consuming process.

Another reason why it is a very good thing is that there is less and less suitable stock cars for building a rally car. With the new rules every car manufacturer is allowed to build a WRC car no matter what it sells.

[Sulland]

Taking this over here from the Rally2 thread.


Yes, and that makes the Rally1 more fun to watch then what WRC is now (on tarmac at least). A bit less advanced and elegant though.

But, what I meant was if a car starts to understeer in the middle of the corner, with loaded up suspension, something is very wrong. Seems like suspension and drivetrain are working against each other.

And in my book this is good. A top class car in either of the motorsports should be very hard to handle. It should be a good gap between Rally1 and Rally2. A youngster with little experience should not be able to hop into a Rally1 car and be able to match the best drivers in the world.

I am guessing the Rally2 cars has ca 300 hp, and Rally1 maybe 400+100 hp. Then the Rally1 should be a handful to master when all 500 horses gallop at once, and the drivetrain makes it even harder to master these machines. If they have a bit less aero as well, we are moving in the right direction.

Hopefully the new spaceframe is made strong enough to protect the crew when and if they loose against in the battle against the machine.

[Mackie]

Taking this over here from the Rally2 thread.



And in my book this is good. A top class car in either of the motorsports should be very hard to handle. It should be a good gap between Rally1 and Rally2. A youngster with little experience should not be able to hop into a Rally1 car and be able to match the best drivers in the world.

I am guessing the Rally2 cars has ca 300 hp, and Rally1 maybe 400+100 hp. Then the Rally1 should be a handful to master when all 500 horses gallop at once, and the drivetrain makes it even harder to master these machines. If they have a bit less aero as well, we are moving in the right direction.

Hopefully the new spaceframe is made strong enough to protect the crew when and if they loose against in the battle against the machine.

And this is okay. The problem I am talking about is if the Hyundai is close to undriveable (which I dont't really think it will be), then we will have a boring Championship.

[denkimi]

Taking this over here from the Rally2 thread.



And in my book this is good. A top class car in either of the motorsports should be very hard to handle. It should be a good gap between Rally1 and Rally2. A youngster with little experience should not be able to hop into a Rally1 car and be able to match the best drivers in the world.

I am guessing the Rally2 cars has ca 300 hp, and Rally1 maybe 400+100 hp. Then the Rally1 should be a handful to master when all 500 horses gallop at once, and the drivetrain makes it even harder to master these machines. If they have a bit less aero as well, we are moving in the right direction.

Hopefully the new spaceframe is made strong enough to protect the crew when and if they loose against in the battle against the machine.
Why would you want to make it hard to go from rc2 to wrc? It should be as easy as possible so it doesn't take 3 full seasons to find out who has real potential and who hasn't.

[Mirek]

And this is okay. The problem I am talking about is if the Hyundai is close to undriveable (which I dont't really think it will be), then we will have a boring Championship.

Few weeks ago during Barum rally Mr. Vlček (boss of Kowax team and a rally driver himself) said that he found the new i20 much easier to drive than the old one but he complained the engine was weak compared to the old one (not anymore 4B11 based?). Vlček is a gentleman driver who doesn't push the car as much as Huttunen but still it's somewhat weird contradiction.

[Mackie]

Few weeks ago during Barum rally Mr. Vlček (boss of Kowax team and a rally driver himself) said that he found the new i20 much easier to drive than the old one but he complained the engine was weak compared to the old one (not anymore 4B11 based?). Vlček is a gentleman driver who doesn't push the car as much as Huttunen but still it's somewhat weird contradiction.

Can't stop thinking about the engine problems in Catalunia as well, Huttunen had to retire didn't he?

[Mirek]

Can't stop thinking about the engine problems in Catalunia as well, Huttunen had to retire didn't he?

Yes but officially the reason was leaking oil radiator (which would fit with the enormous oil consumption about which Huttunen complained after leg 1).

[Yugo_para_siempre]

At the tarmac tests of Puma, the rear internal wheel often was lifted.

I do not remember this to happen at the current cars.

[cali]

At the tarmac tests of Puma, the rear internal wheel often was lifted.

I do not remember this to happen at the current cars.Spare tyre? I didn't get what you were trying to say.

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[Mirek]

At the tarmac tests of Puma, the rear internal wheel often was lifted.

I do not remember this to happen at the current cars.

It often happens with Yaris WRC on asphalt.


Spare tyre? I didn't get what you were trying to say.

He meant that the car often goes on three wheels in sharp corners lifting the inner rear wheel like a typical FWD.

[cali]

It often happens with Yaris WRC on asphalt.



He meant that the car often goes on three wheels in sharp corners lifting the inner rear wheel like a typical FWD.Got it, thanks!

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[Yugo_para_siempre]

Bad use of English sorry.

I meant the rear wheel on the inside.

Let's say when turning left, the rear left wheel.

[Yugo_para_siempre]

It often happens with Yaris WRC on asphalt.

I have the impression that Puma lifts it more often. Maybe I am wrong.

[Mirek]

I have the impression that Puma lifts it more often. Maybe I am wrong.

It's early days. Let's see how it behaves in January ;)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

WRC Wings on the latest test aero of the Puma Rally1:

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2021/10/25/five-aero-details-of-the-2022-ford-puma-rally1/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Breen on adapting to the Rally 1:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-adaptations-required-to-excel-in-the-rally1-car/

[AnttiL]

https://twitter.com/dirtfishrally/status/1453269758640590868?s=21

EV mode

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Colin McMaster @colmcklein
I spoke to the 9x WRC Champion (Loeb) about these 2022 cars. He said the Ford is very similar to the current generation cars to drive. No drama.

[Eli]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-day-one-of-hyundais-rally-simulation-unfolded/

I was wondering, will Oliver also be present in this test? or is it just for Thierry & Ott?

[flat_right]

Sorry if it has been discussed here before but why did they remove paddle shifting? Was it because cost saving? Or they wanted to make driving more difficult?

[AnttiL]

Sorry if it has been discussed here before but why did they remove paddle shifting? Was it because cost saving? Or they wanted to make driving more difficult?

I guess both.

[TypeR]

Triangle shaped new part of rollcage makes carrying two spares rather difficult..?

https://www.upload.ee/image/13591875/Screenshot_20211029-194503_Instagram.jpg

[Ricardo Filipe Matos]

Any news in terms of brands for 2023?

[EstWRC]

Any news in terms of brands for 2023?

ill try to answer as Matton in every interview: "theres a lot of interest from other manufacturers"

[Steve Boyd]

"theres a lot of interest from other manufacturers"

Ikea, Kellogs, Estee Lauder

If only they made cars :rotflmao:

[240RS]

The addition of Hybrid units doesn't appear to have troubled the teams that much. You get the feeling the main combustion power unit will remain completely fundamental from a competitive point of view, with the hybrid a bolt-on addition that is equal to all, for better, for worse.

[dimviii]

“So we believe in the learning process, and it’s why we did this prototype – and it really was a prototype – in this moment. To chase the final performance with a car that is far away from the one that will be in Monte Carlo, which we will start to test in 10 days, would have been good but also a bit of a waste of time.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/adamo-reliability-is-priority-with-hyundais-rally1-car/

[becher]

https://twitter.com/dirtfishrally/status/1453269758640590868?s=21

EV mode

It might be sufficent to pander to the current BEV craze and wanna-be environmentalist but doesn't it also remove some of the spectacle of seeing a rally car on liaisons? Most people that don't know the sport are amazed when they see such a car and realize it is road legal and has to travel on normal roads.

[cali]

It might be sufficent to pander to the current BEV craze and wanna-be environmentalist but doesn't it also remove some of the spectacle of seeing a rally car on liaisons? Most people that don't know the sport are amazed when they see such a car and realize it is road legal and has to travel on normal roads.It can travel only 20km on battery power alone so spectators will hear ICE roaring on liasions as well.

I must say at the last vids (Puma and i20) I like these new cars and maybe even more than 2017 gen WRC's. No centre diffs, heavier car, reduced suspension travel etc will make it more fun to the eye.

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[RS]

Ikea, Kellogs, Estee Lauder

If only they made cars :rotflmao:

Since the new Rally1s don’t have to be based on actual cars any more does that even matter?

In theory can anyone enter now or does there still have to be a car manufacturer involved?

[ictus]

Since the new Rally1s don’t have to be based on actual cars any more does that even matter?

In theory can anyone enter now or does there still have to be a car manufacturer involved?

You have to use the front windshield, the bonnet and the roof of the actual car

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Didier Clement explains how he perceives this new era (for Rally2 cars) via WRCWings:

“We, Citroën, we were in favour of hybridisation, because in fact, we participated at the beginning of the WRC regulation. In Rally2 we are also in favour of hybridisation… but it has little to do with hybridisation in the WRC. For the WRC, it’s high voltage with very heavy batteries, and it’s very expensive (only the battery and the electrical harness have the same cost as half a Rally2 car!). We mustn’t lose sight of the fact that a Rally2 is a customer car. We’ve already put forward some ideas to other manufacturers and to the FIA to have a light hybridisation that is cheap, with standard parts, a 48V low voltage solution with a small battery and with very little additional weight. Of course, you won’t be able to drive many kilometers on a hybrid, you will not have a big overboost, but it’s already a first step to use this hybrid energy in competition with a very low cost and no extra cost to operate.”

“Our idea is to have this regulation in 2023 or 2024, nothing is decided yet, we have to wait, but the technology that we will use in competition is known technology of series car to stay in a series price with just an additional competition package. We are pushing for the 48V low voltage solution that is used every day, it is not dangerous. When there are accidents, it is not more dangerous than with a normal car, that is why we think it is a good step and we will see if it is adopted in the future”.

[Mirek]

Since the new Rally1s don’t have to be based on actual cars any more does that even matter?

In theory can anyone enter now or does there still have to be a car manufacturer involved?


You have to use the front windshield, the bonnet and the roof of the actual car

I guess that you still need a homologation done by the manufacturer.

On the other hand I think that WRC will need to allow (and should) privately built cars in the future in a similar way to Dakar. IMHO in the long-term horizont it won't be able to survive without them.

[bandit12]

I guess that you still need a homologation done by the manufacturer.

On the other hand I think that WRC will need to allow (and should) privately built cars in the future in a similar way to Dakar. IMHO in the long-term horizont it won't be able to survive without them.

You are absolutely correct with that.

[becher]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyundai-in-car-heat-will-be-challenge-for-all-rally1-crews/

''...each car shares the same spaceframe chassis.''

It has never been specified as far as I know but I thought only the safetycell was a spec part integrated into the spaceframe chassis of each manufacturer. Was this just incompentence on the writers part or is the safetycell more than the published FIA statements indicated so far?

Also has a minimum weight for the Rally1 cars been published yet?

[AnttiL]

To me it seems like the writer made an error, it should be only the safety cell and hybrid unit which are common to all cars.

[drive]

Some time ago info was released that cars would go on electric power in towns between stages etc, and also that extra electric power will/could be used on exits from slow corners on the stages - but since then no more information on the extra power on SS. Or did I missed it?

[AnttiL]

Some time ago info was released that cars would go on electric power in towns between stages etc, and also that extra electric power will/could be used on exits from slow corners on the stages - but since then no more information on the extra power on SS. Or did I missed it?

There's been bits and pieces here and there. This is one of the latest articles.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/an-engineers-guide-to-rally1/

[WRCStan]

Also here - https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/fia-and-wrc-take-360-degree-approach-to-sustainable-future/

"The unique Rally1 hybrid system has three principal modes:"

[Mirek]

They are not completely stupid. They would not carry the hybrid system and invest huge money in it just to use it only on the road sections. That would be just a ridiculous nonsense :)

[drive]

just wonder what Ott was saying about hybrid technology... any help from Estonia? :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CsT0bMGW24

[EstWRC]

just wonder what Ott was saying about hybrid technology... any help from Estonia? :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CsT0bMGW24

nothing groundbraking

- batteries 80-90 kg in the car
- that the hybrid system and its usage is still so new to everybody, a lot of work still to do how to use it, doing different simulations, strategies etc.
- if you use the energy wisely you can win a lot
- he thinks the bravest wont be the fastest anymore but the one who is smart and uses the energy wisely, even when youre slower in the corner for example but you win a lot on the straight
- since the car is heavier you cant play around with it so much anymore and you need a different driving style
- nobody knows what will exactly happen in Monte

[Andre Oliveira]

https://scontent.fopo5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/fr/cp0/e15/q65/255518736_5083549811674405_4438494648743124610_n.j pg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=ca434c&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=h4wxleIFyMsAX8dd8ws&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo5-1.fna&oh=9ce41a9a12c0e474886f2fe1161d3cfa&oe=6191DC65

“ After seeing the Puma and the Yaris 2022, the former impresses much more than the latter. I’m sure the cars will change until they get to Monte-Carlo but the people at M-Sport seem to be carrying the most advanced work.”

[mknight]

The automatic answer to any performance comments based on test vids:

C3 looked clearly fastest on tests before 2017 season, Toyota looked close to hopeless.

[Andre Oliveira]

Comments of C3 was based on videos. That is of personal view at least.

[dimviii]

C3 looked clearly fastest on tests before 2017 season, Toyota looked close to hopeless.

Citroen was commented as fast at asphalt videos.And it was the fastest car at asphalt.

[flat_right]

Does someone know if there is a date, when all the 2022 cars have to be homologated?

[Eli]

Does someone know if there is a date, when all the 2022 cars have to be homologated?

I think Adamo mentioned in one of his interviews they have to homologate their 2022 machines until the 1st of January 2022.

[Sulland]

Car development updated after months of no real-road running, plus rumours of a big suspension re-design.

What did happen with the suspension regs? Did they put in a max travel for the front and rear wheels?

[becher]

Yes its regulated now. Someone might know how much is allowed for Rally1 cars?

[Mirek]

Yes its regulated now. Someone might know how much is allowed for Rally1 cars?

That's one thing which puzzles me. I simply don't see any meaning in doing so. Why limit suspension travel? The impact on the cost is probably marginal, it only makes the cars harder and riskier to drive on the limit. In fact the suspension travel is somewhat self-regulated by other limits (McPherson strut design, car width, driveshaft joint extreme angles).

[becher]

Come to think of it there shouldn't be any cost savings attached to it as it is ideed limited by other factors. Maybe they feared that the space frame regulations would have allowed for even more travel ? Altough the current cars behave awesome dynamically I think they looked a bit funny (like buggys) on certain pictures when the full travel could be seen.

[Sulland]

You see from some videos of testing that especially the backend jumps up, wheels in the air. That would not have happened to the same degree in a 17 car.

This will maybe result in lower cornerspeed on gravel, or it will be increased safety risk, or more back injuries.
Lets see in sweden, how fast the Rally1s are. Maybe also in MC, depending on the weather!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.wrc.com/images/redaktion/Season-2021-NEWS/WRC/November/021121_Hyundai-ThierryNeuville-Test-2021_005_5a1c5_frz_1400x788.jpg

[AMSS]

Yes its regulated now. Someone might know how much is allowed for Rally1 cars?

270mm damper travel

[AMSS]

[QUOTE=Sulland;1286769]You see from some videos of testing that especially the backend jumps up, wheels in the air. That would not have happened to the same degree in a 17 car.

I think this has more to do with the additional weight in the rear and still searching for optimal suspension setup than the actual travel limitation

[Mirek]

270mm damper travel

That's more or less the same as pre-2017 WRC cars, isn't it?

[becher]

Thanks. Current cars are somwhere around 300mm right?

[AMSS]

That's more or less the same as pre-2017 WRC cars, isn't it?

Yes, I think the Fiesta had somewhere around 280 front and 300 rear (an even more for rough events ~280/320)

[WRCStan]

Come to think of it there shouldn't be any cost savings attached to it....

Is the new suspension a common part with Rally2? Every little helps with inventory and supply.

[AnttiL]

Come to think of it there shouldn't be any cost savings attached to it as it is ideed limited by other factors. Maybe they feared that the space frame regulations would have allowed for even more travel ? Altough the current cars behave awesome dynamically I think they looked a bit funny (like buggys) on certain pictures when the full travel could be seen.

All I know is that in 2017 the Rally Finland organizers were against increased suspension travel for the new cars because it increases cornering speed. In their opinion, the cars can be more powerful but they shouldn't be fast in corners. And essentially this is how the Rally1 cars are now.

We don't know if the reduced travel is the only thing limited in suspension, maybe there's also other limitations which reduce expenses.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Greensmith says the speed of the new Puma Rally1 really shocked him... and this after driving the '17 car for a few years.

[AMSS]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/everything-but-rims-redesigned-for-hyundais-real-rally1-car/

[doubled1978]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/everything-but-rims-redesigned-for-hyundais-real-rally1-car/

Well there we are, forget everything we have seen from them so far!

[ouvreur]

Well there we are, forget everything we have seen from them so far!

Unless that's what they want you to think...

We'll see what turns up in Monte Carlo.

[TheFlyingTuga]

Unless that's what they want you to think...

We'll see what turns up in Monte Carlo.

You'll probably see the new car before MC roles around

[mknight]

Well I get that the looks and some parts can be different. But at least engine and hybrid unit can't be different (hybrid is same for everyone and engine was homologated in the summer). So Adamo is exaturating as always.

[AnttiL]

Well I get that the looks and some parts can be different. But at least engine and hybrid unit can't be different (hybrid is same for everyone and engine was homologated in the summer). So Adamo is exaturating as always.

It’s another ”adamoism”. He explains though how they re-designed the transmission. And maybe the mule was based on an i20 bodyshell, and the new car will be an actual tubular frame? Or made from Kona?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Incredible spin by Adamo on the new car.

They really have been still testing with a true mule right up until now, something M-Sport finished doing 6 months ago. Now Adamo says they have designed a brand new car (finally !) as if its a great achievement.

But that will need testing on real roads which others have also been doing for months. They're really going to be up against it to have a fully-tested, reliable fast car by Monte Carlo.

[rallyfiend]

Unless that's what they want you to think...

We'll see what turns up in Monte Carlo.

Your assertions lack credibility.

Because you problem is, many other people in this world also have eyes...

[ouvreur]

Your assertions lack credibility.

Because you problem is, many other people in this world also have eyes...

Other people may have eyes, but if all they're looking at / reading is PR or carefully managed interviews, they're not really seeing anything at all.

It's all a smokescreen. Diversion. Don't get me wrong, I respect what Adamo is trying to do, and I'd be doing the same in his position. Underplaying his hand, lowering expectations, making everyone think Hyundai are on the back foot. Takes the pressure off for Monte - if the car wins, amazing! If it fails, oh well, they were so far behind.

But based on what I see and read from elsewhere, that's no mule they've been testing. At least, it sure as hell isn't an i20 Coupe with a suit on. It has the proper cage, or at least a first version of it - how else would the co-drivers have sampled the new seating position / know how warm it gets with the new exhaust routing?

We may see a car with different bodywork / aero. But the idea that only now are they starting to test fundamental chassis concepts? Never in a million years.

[rallyfiend]

Other people may have eyes, but if all they're looking at / reading is PR or carefully managed interviews, they're not really seeing anything at all.

It's all a smokescreen. Diversion. Don't get me wrong, I respect what Adamo is trying to do, and I'd be doing the same in his position. Underplaying his hand, lowering expectations, making everyone think Hyundai are on the back foot. Takes the pressure off for Monte - if the car wins, amazing! If it fails, oh well, they were so far behind.

But based on what I see and read from elsewhere, that's no mule they've been testing. At least, it sure as hell isn't an i20 Coupe with a suit on. It has the proper cage, or at least a first version of it - how else would the co-drivers have sampled the new seating position / know how warm it gets with the new exhaust routing?

We may see a car with different bodywork / aero. But the idea that only now are they starting to test fundamental chassis concepts? Never in a million years.

I don't think the car they're testing is even the same MODEL of car that will be used for the Rally1 car....

I could be wrong, but I don't believe they'll use the i20....

[AnttiL]

I don't think the car they're testing is even the same MODEL of car that will be used for the Rally1 car....

I could be wrong, but I don't believe they'll use the i20....

Have you seen the pics today? There’s an i20 Rally1 being tested, but with many new parts to the previous i20 Rally1 test car

[WRCStan]

They announced the i20 N Rally1 which makes sense, use rally to push the hot-hatch.

[rallyfiend]

They announced the i20 N Rally1 which makes sense, use rally to push the hot-hatch.

Have they? Where?

[WRCStan]

Have they? Where?

Of course they being WRC.com ;) that's definitely what I meant. https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/sordo-and-solberg-to-share-third-hyundai-in-2022/

I'm trying to get on to https://motorsport.hyundai.com but it's down. Wonder why that is? No worries, https://www.hyundai.news/eu/articles/press-releases/hyundai-motorsport-confirms-2022-wrc-driver-line-up.html has NO mention of i20 N Rally1.

[ouvreur]

I don't think the car they're testing is even the same MODEL of car that will be used for the Rally1 car....

I could be wrong, but I don't believe they'll use the i20....

I'm not trying to have an argument with you, but do you seriously think that they've tested two iterations of an i20 N-based car, the latest being seen in public for the first time this weekend, only to throw it all in the bin with just under a month until the homologation deadline and build it into a completely different body style?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Adamo said they would be testing the 'new car' at the end of Nov, so this is it, the i20 that Tanak has been testing.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I think its confirmed..

Oliver Solberg @OliverSolberg01
Fantastic to be behind the wheel of @HMSGOfficial's 2022 car today.

And...
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/hyundais-new-look-2022-wrc-car-breaks-cover/6832767/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rich Millener (M-Sport) after the recent Puma Rally1 test:
“It was interesting for some of the guys who had been in the current [Fiesta WRC] car in Monza the week before – that offered them the chance to really feel how the two cars were working and the feedback on the Puma was very, very positive."

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/loeb-at-wheel-as-puma-progress-continues/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

New i20 Rally1 aero review by WRCWings:

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2021/11/30/the-new-aero-package-of-the-2022-hyundai-i20-n-rally1/

[Thousandlakes]

Anybody know how much rally1 car minimum weight will be?

Another interesting thing is how much rally1 car is faster than rally2. I bet somewhere between 1.5-2sec km. So pretty much same as this year wrc/wrc2.

If it is only 1sec/km I would be quite disappointed.

What is your prediction?

[AnttiL]

Anybody know how much rally1 car minimum weight will be?

Another interesting thing is how much rally1 car is faster than rally2. I bet somewhere between 1.5-2sec km. So pretty much same as this year wrc/wrc2.

If it is only 1sec/km I would be quite disappointed.

What is your prediction?

I believe Rally1 will be 0.75 s/km slower than 2021 WRC. And then Rally2 will be 1.25 s/km slower than Rally1.

[cali]

I believe Rally1 will be 0.75 s/km slower than 2021 WRC. And then Rally2 will be 1.25 s/km slower than Rally1.And by the end of the year Rally1 cars will be on the same speed or faster than 2017 spec cars....

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[AnttiL]

And by the end of the year Rally1 cars will be on the same speed or faster than 2017 spec cars....

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

I don't think so, but the differences of WRC-Rally1-Rally2 will vary quite greatly from stage/rally to another.

[cali]

I don't think so, but the differences of WRC-Rally1-Rally2 will vary quite greatly from stage/rally to another.That's my prediction anyway and the gap between those cars will shrink during the year massively

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[djip]

I don't think so, but the differences of WRC-Rally1-Rally2 will vary quite greatly from stage/rally to another.

It woul be good to have a smaller gap between Rally1 and Rally2. To day it is so massive that even with issues/mistakes WRC carss vcan catchup the leadderrboard quite easily.
Rally1 must rermain the top class, but not a totally separate rally (as it was with Goup4/Group2 back in the days)
also the jump for a young driver would not be as massive with 2+ years of learning. Again , in the Group A ays, experienced privateers and up and coming youngsters could compete (almost) immediately with the top guns - See Ogier's debuts.

[WRCStan]

Rally1 specific regulations now published:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/262_2022_wmsc_2021.12.15.pdf

[WRCStan]

Rally1 specific regulations now published:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/262_2022_wmsc_2021.12.15.pdf

Cars are Category II (competition cars). No production requirement or reference to cars previously homologated in Group A or N. Only a loosely term rule: "Cars must be strictly series production based and must be identifiable from the information specified on the homologation form."

Sporting regs say Rally1 cars will only be homologated when a manufacturer registers for the manufacturers championship. I think we're too late to get a car ready, but is WRC more open then before?

[Thousandlakes]

So. Rally1 Minimum weight is 1260kg. About 80kg heavier than 2021 cars. Not bad if new cars are already near that minimum weight?

[Eli]

So. Rally1 Minimum weight is 1260kg. About 80kg heavier than 2021 cars. Not bad if new cars are already near that minimum weight?

70kg's and don't forget that hybrid system adds another roughly 80-90 kg (to the previous weight).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rally1 Car technical and aero regs and how some have been applied (needs translate)

https://motoresport.cat/2021/12/21/wrc-tech-les-noves-normes-tecniques-del-rally1-i-les-retallades-en-aerodinamica/amp/?feed_id=5526

[greencroft]

Is there insight anywhere on how the additional power from the hybrid unit is to be deployed in stages? Does the driver have a button/switch to press to get the additional power or is it to be more subtle than that? Assuming the battery is used more in the stages than it is recharged, will there be an impact on stages where 2 stages follow close together with only a short road section between? Will some stages simply be too long for the electric power to be available for their entire length?

[WRCStan]

Is there insight anywhere on how the additional power from the hybrid unit is to be deployed in stages? Does the driver have a button/switch to press to get the additional power or is it to be more subtle than that? Assuming the battery is used more in the stages than it is recharged, will there be an impact on stages where 2 stages follow close together with only a short road section between? Will some stages simply be too long for the electric power to be available for their entire length?

This may help: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/an-engineers-guide-to-rally1/

There's no button, it'll work off the start line in launch mode. From then it'll work if there's enough charge, the driver is accelerating and not braking etc. Read about the maps in the article, but it's yet to be explained more what these are. In road mode under full electric the range is about 20km so I don't imagine there's much capacity in stage/hybrid mode.

[AnttiL]

I don't know anything but my guess is the maps are ranges for specific RPM's, speeds, gears and maybe even steering angles put together, where the boost should be deployed and how much. You want a milder boost in Monte than in Catalunya.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

In testing some drivers have mentioned how tricky it is to deploy the extra power correctly.

It sounds a bit like the turbo boost in cars decades ago, when there was a lag and then a big slug of torque which could catch you out ie. coming in mid-corner.

I guess the hybrid power is controlled by an ECU map rather than the driver to ensure it is generated and deployed so as not to deplete it entirely.

[EstWRC]

Ott Tänak has praised his Hyundai Motorsport team colleagues on the job they have done developing the all-new i20 N WRC Rally1 car.

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/tanak-praises-hyundai-developments/

[Thousandlakes]

One interesting thing is how long will be 5th gear. Are we going to see again +200kmh in some rallies like Finland/Sweden? Or this extra hp is just used to make faster acceleration certain areas in stage. This aspect is interesting to see. How drivers will use extra power and what kind of places.

Like in gravel and snow rallies driver doesn't need to use hybrid immediately after tight junction cause of wheelspin is there anyway. After the grip is there driver can push full power if long straight ahead. Definitely more brain needed with these 2022 cars. There will be driving style changes for example driver need to brake with straight car places where regenerating needed next straight etc.
I generally I see this very interesting.

[lluisva555]

Rally1 Car technical and aero regs and how some have been applied (needs translate)

https://motoresport.cat/2021/12/21/wrc-tech-les-noves-normes-tecniques-del-rally1-i-les-retallades-en-aerodinamica/amp/?feed_id=5526

You can find the English version here:

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2021/12/20/new-rally1-technical-regulations-and-aero-trimming/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lappi on the new hybrid GR Yaris:

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/lappi-gets-acquainted-with-new-gr-yaris/

[WRCStan]

Is there insight anywhere on how the additional power from the hybrid unit is to be deployed in stages?

There's actually an insight to Hybrid strategy in the regs appendix XV:


A maximum SOC will be imposed at the beginning of the stage. This value will be defined in the official documentation and user guide provided by the FIA-designated single supplier for the hybrid propulsion system.

Why wouldn't the max SOC be 100%?


Maximum energy released, which is dependent on stage length. The value is defined by stage length and rally surface type, and communicated in the supplementary regulations of each event.

If SOC is ≥80% it is compulsory to automatically activate one hybrid boost. At the end of this boost (maximum release energy reached), it is necessary to release the throttle pedal OR press the brake pedal to get another hybrid boost if SOC is still above 80%.

Interesting insight, so one maximum release may be less than 20%. Why would that depend on the stage length? Perhaps short stage is higher %?


Valid Regen: The regen energy counter is active only when the front brake pressure is higher than 5 bars and the throttle pedal is below 30%.

About how heavy a foot is 5 bars? I guess combined with the throttle it won't interfere with normal driving.

[AnttiL]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIEuk9BXIAEpFrw?format=png&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIEuoycWYAQiqrn?format=png&name=large

[tommeke_B]

Somewhat surprising that the extra boost on the start line is the same for both tarmac and gravel events. On gravel events the road is completely destroyed at the starting line. Adding 100kg of weight and a big amount of torque isn't going to help much I think.

[Mirek]

IMHO they do the things way too complicated. As if the rally rules weren't complicated enough already without that.

[Franky]

IMHO they do the things way too complicated. As if the rally rules weren't complicated enough already without that.

People need to justify their job from time to time.

[WRCStan]

People need to justify their job from time to time.

Who in this case?

[Franky]

Who in this case?

I believe you need to ask that from the people who make the rules.

[WRCStan]

I believe you need to ask that from the people who make the rules.

Ah do I feel conned. Here's me thinking these restrictions were derived from technical capabilities after manufacturers demanded hybrid. Pesky desk-jockeys Grrr!

[greencroft]

Thanks WRCStan and Anttil and others for posting responses to my earlier questions.

The use of the hybrid is way more complicated than I had envisaged and I guess its successful implmentation will be a big factor on the early rallies as the teams find their way with the new tech.

I really hope that it proves reliable because we need these Rally1 cars competing against each other for the whole events.

[AndyRAC]

Over complicated hybrid rules - is anybody really surprised? The simple solution was X amount of energy (plus regeneration) per day, use it when you need it; and on road sections, however, you need X amount at the end of day control. They can never do things simply.

[wyler]

Over complicated hybrid rules - is anybody really surprised? The simple solution was X amount of energy (plus regeneration) per day, use it when you need it; and on road sections, however, you need X amount at the end of day control. They can never do things simply.

Which is more or less the same as now, until one asks. "ok. but how it works?"

[AnttiL]

use it when you need it

by pressing a button?



(plus regeneration)

When do you regenerate?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Craig Breen says he's already comfortable using the hybrid system in the new Puma Rally1. It probably sounds more complicated on paper than it is in use by the driver's once they adapt.

The big complication for them will be making new pacenotes, marking places where they think they will be usng the power boost. The choice of which torque map to use will also tricky.

[wyler]

Craig Breen says he's already comfortable using the hybrid system in the new Puma Rally1. It probably sounds more complicated on paper than it is in use by the driver's once they adapt.

The big complication for them will be making new pacenotes, marking places where they think they will be usng the power boost. The choice of which torque map to use will also tricky.

Don't think will be much more complex than active diff era. don't remember well, but sound similar to me...kinda select a couple of variations stage by stage...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Good reply I received when I posted on Twitter re the 'complex new hybrid system'...

'If it’s anything like F1, there will be at least 5 years of explaining it all on every single rally, “for those new to WRC”.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Toyota's Tom Fowler on the work involved in designing their Rally1 car:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-rally1-has-changed-the-face-of-wrc-design/

Plus interestingly...

'from what he’s seen the M-Sport Ford Puma Rally1 is “quite a different concept to ours”.

[WRCStan]

Do the teams share the same chassis plans and Toyota are building theirs in the workshop? Or do they mean the roll cage is shared. Have Hyundai said whether the i20 is bodyshell or spaceframe yet?

[TypeR]

Seeing the back of the Hyundai after Neuville's crash.. It's pretty sure that they use spaceframe..

[Mirek]

If I remember right Jan Skála, who is a supplier of carbon parts for all WRC teams, said in an interview on ewrc that they were all using spaceframe.

By the way he said his company in the last two months produced 1300 carbon parts for Puma alone (less for Hyundai and a lot less for Toyota).

[WRCStan]

If I remember right Jan Skála, who is a supplier of carbon parts for all WRC teams, said in an interview on ewrc that they were all using spaceframe.

By the way he said his company in the last two months produced 1300 carbon parts for Puma alone (less for Hyundai and a lot less for Toyota).

It was a good read thank you.

https://www.ewrc.cz/clanek/36680-/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If I remember right Jan Skála, who is a supplier of carbon parts for all WRC teams, said in an interview on ewrc that they were all using spaceframe.

By the way he said his company in the last two months produced 1300 carbon parts for Puma alone (less for Hyundai and a lot less for Toyota).

M-Sport needing parts for 4 Puma's in Monte Carlo gave him many wrinkles...

https://www.ewrc.cz/clanek/36680-jan-skala-praha-sice-nevysla-ale-planuji-v-rally-vice-startu/

[wwbroe]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-the-wrcs-hybrid-boost-will-work/

[dimviii]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-the-wrcs-hybrid-boost-will-work/

Now we know more about how the boost can be deployed, how is it stopped? By hitting the brakes?

“That’s correct,” said Fowler. “During normal braking you’re regenerating but if you’re deploying during an acceleration phase and you touch the brakes then you’re required to stop deploying, in a similar way to if you touch the brakes when you have cruise control on on the freeway it might deactivate. It’s effectively the same situation.”


so drivers who use constantly the left foot brake have to change style?

[EstWRC]

I was thinking that isn’t Ogiers and Tanaks braking style an advantage for generating the energy?

[wyler]

Now we know more about how the boost can be deployed, how is it stopped? By hitting the brakes?

“That’s correct,” said Fowler. “During normal braking you’re regenerating but if you’re deploying during an acceleration phase and you touch the brakes then you’re required to stop deploying, in a similar way to if you touch the brakes when you have cruise control on on the freeway it might deactivate. It’s effectively the same situation.”


so drivers who use constantly the left foot brake have to change style?

depends on what actually means hitting the brake.
possibly they can set a bar pressure threshold that activate the interruption, so u can touch the brake until a certain pressure before stopping the boost.

[andyone]

Now we know more about how the boost can be deployed, how is it stopped? By hitting the brakes?

“That’s correct,” said Fowler. “During normal braking you’re regenerating but if you’re deploying during an acceleration phase and you touch the brakes then you’re required to stop deploying, in a similar way to if you touch the brakes when you have cruise control on on the freeway it might deactivate. It’s effectively the same situation.”


so drivers who use constantly the left foot brake have to change style?

but why lol. they should just put a button to do that

[WRCStan]

Sounds like a brake pedal sensor that cancels deployment with any input, if they're balancing a car already at speed they probably don't want the boost, but that's not energy wasted as it'll be available under acceleration out of the next slow corner, providing they're pointing and travelling the right way.

With energy regen, at first I thought nobody's going to be braking later and harder then they already do and that was it. But regen is active above 5 bar pressure of the front brake and some rear braking comes with the regen capture. To what degree does balancing the regen desire strategy with braking efficacy affect setting brake biases and then standard left footing, in reality and in heads? Maybe it's not so simple, maybe it's not worth the thought. In two weeks I'll find out.

[Mirek]

The thing is that with recuperation you can brake harder and later when there is enough grip. The recuperation takes away reasonable part of the energy which would otherwise transform all into heat.

[WRCStan]

The thing is that with recuperation you can brake harder and later when there is enough grip.

Then why weren't you doing that before? All other factors equal, what changes with just introducing regen?

[Mirek]

Then why weren't you doing that before? All other factors equal, what changes with just introducing regen?

If there was only one short braking in the whole stage than the recuperation would make no change but there is a lot of braking. Every braking generates heat. The harder you brake the more heat you produce and the more you need to dissipate. The cooling effeciency is however limited, therefore you can brake only that much that your brake fluid dosn't start to boil or your brake pads don't start to glaze or even burn. When you recuperate energy you create much less heat by braking which means that the same amount of the energy you recuperated during the stage you can also spend on extra braking without overheating the brakes. That may create really big difference especially on stages like in Catalunya.

[Tanelv]

It would be interesting to know what is the maximum regen power they will get and what is the net capacity of the battery in kWh. Maybe it has been provided already somewhere? It would be an interesting thing to show, what is the % of the battery and what is the current regen power and regenerated energy in a sector/braking etc.

In a trip in Norway with a Kona EV I managed to regenerate 5 kWh in around 15 km when descending from 1300 m a.s.l to 9 m a.s.l (the road from Turtagrø to Øvre Årdal). Kona allows a maximum 150 kW charge to battery when recuperating (measured with an OBD dongle), Taycan should allow up to 300 kW if I remember correctly. But as the Rally1 battery is probably quite small I believe their maximum regen power is lower, otherwise the C would be very high and the battery longevity would suffer.

[sti123]

It would be interesting to know what is the maximum regen power they will get and what is the net capacity of the battery in kWh. Maybe it has been provided already somewhere? It would be an interesting thing to show, what is the % of the battery and what is the current regen power and regenerated energy in a sector/braking etc.

In a trip in Norway with a Kona EV I managed to regenerate 5 kWh in around 15 km when descending from 1300 m a.s.l to 9 m a.s.l (the road from Turtagrø to Øvre Årdal). Kona allows a maximum 150 kW charge to battery when recuperating (measured with an OBD dongle), Taycan should allow up to 300 kW if I remember correctly. But as the Rally1 battery is probably quite small I believe their maximum regen power is lower, otherwise the C would be very high and the battery longevity would suffer.

Weighing 84kg, Compact Dynamics’ high-performance P3-topology hybrid system accommodates a motor-generator unit (MGU), control unit and battery in a compact housing, thereby delivering maximum power density. The battery for the hybrid system is supplied by Compact Dynamics’ partner, Kreisel Electric, based in Austria.

The unit consists of a 3.9kWh capacity battery pack which is coupled to the MGU, delivering 100kW (134hp) of power and 180Nm of torque during acceleration.
During braking and coasting, the system recuperates energy normally lost and stores it in the battery. If necessary, the battery can also be recharged by an external power supply (plug-in hybrid) during service breaks. To charge from 20 to 80 per cent will take around 20 minutes using the dedicated units.

The MGU, which operates at up to 12,000rpm, the battery, which operates at up to 750 volts, and the inverter control unit are sealed in a carbon fibre housing to resist possible forces and impacts in the event of an accident. The unit is designed to withstand a 70G impact.
https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/fia-and-wrc-take-360-degree-approach-to-sustainable-future/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Rally1 hybrid system explained by M-Sport:

https://youtu.be/-mbCJecCDr8

[Mirek]

It would be interesting to know what is the maximum regen power they will get and what is the net capacity of the battery in kWh. Maybe it has been provided already somewhere? It would be an interesting thing to show, what is the % of the battery and what is the current regen power and regenerated energy in a sector/braking etc.

In a trip in Norway with a Kona EV I managed to regenerate 5 kWh in around 15 km when descending from 1300 m a.s.l to 9 m a.s.l (the road from Turtagrø to Øvre Årdal). Kona allows a maximum 150 kW charge to battery when recuperating (measured with an OBD dongle), Taycan should allow up to 300 kW if I remember correctly. But as the Rally1 battery is probably quite small I believe their maximum regen power is lower, otherwise the C would be very high and the battery longevity would suffer.

If I count right in a veeeeery simplistic linear scenario a 300 kW recuperation would be able to slow down a WRC car from 150 km/h with a deceleration of 1,5G without using brakes at all.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Does anyone know how the cars regen their battery between stages during a loop (not at service). Is this done with the car's ICE ?

[AnttiL]

Does anyone know how the cars regen their battery between stages during a loop (not at service). Is this done with the car's ICE ?

Yes of course.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Great work by WRC Wings comparing the aero of the three new Rally1 cars...

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2022/01/10/similarities-and-differences-in-the-aero-of-the-2022-rally1-cars/

[dimviii]

so drivers who use constantly the left foot brake have to change style?

after 3 days we discussed here ,there we are.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/will-left-foot-braking-die-out-in-2022/

[Mirek]

I remember that already in the era of the fully active 2.0 litre WRC they often said that left foot braking isn't needed if you set the diff maps right (at least on asphalt). After all the left foot braking wastes energy and adds heat to the brakes. In pure theory it shall be avoided. The new cars don't have the center diff and shall therefore behave more like an overpowered R5 car. It would be interesting to hear from the drivers how much they actually use it in them.

By the way my eyes bleed reading the first paragraph of the article... of course you launch yourself through the windshield if you do the left foot braking in a stock car because there is the vacuum brake servo which is not present in the WRC car. On the other hand everyone is able to brake by left foot in a go kart and finds it perfectly natural.

[AnttiL]

There's a difference to using your left foot for braking (while not throttling) and doing the "left-foot-braking" which is used to balance the car to improve turn-in.

From what I've heard from various interviews, Ogier's style is to brake before corner, roll through the corner and apply throttle upon reaching exit angle. Thus there's no simultaneous braking and throttling.

Out of the current drivers Esapekka Lappi seems to be a heavy left-foot-braker, braking lights are alight while turning as well. Remember when he and Ogier were teammates at Citroen, they struggled to find suitable front diff ramps for Esapekka.

[mknight]

Since you mention Citroen...

In 2017 Mikkelsen drove the 3 rallies with them, before the first one (Sardinia) he had some 80 km test. Later there was I believe an official press release where they said that they didn't have any diffsettings ready for a driving style that "didn't use left-foot braking at all" (Mikkelsen copied his style from Ogier at VW).

This even got some attention here with comments about "how can anyone drive like that".

[1988senna]

I just wonder what's the disadvantage for the left foot braker. when they use the throttle and the brake at the same time in the 2022 hybrid car??

[1988senna]

There's a difference to using your left foot for braking (while not throttling) and doing the "left-foot-braking" which is used to balance the car to improve turn-in.

From what I've heard from various interviews, Ogier's style is to brake before corner, roll through the corner and apply throttle upon reaching exit angle. Thus there's no simultaneous braking and throttling.

Out of the current drivers Esapekka Lappi seems to be a heavy left-foot-braker, braking lights are alight while turning as well. Remember when he and Ogier were teammates at Citroen, they struggled to find suitable front diff ramps for Esapekka.


Weighing 84kg, Compact Dynamics’ high-performance P3-topology hybrid system accommodates a motor-generator unit (MGU), control unit and battery in a compact housing, thereby delivering maximum power density. The battery for the hybrid system is supplied by Compact Dynamics’ partner, Kreisel Electric, based in Austria.

The unit consists of a 3.9kWh capacity battery pack which is coupled to the MGU, delivering 100kW (134hp) of power and 180Nm of torque during acceleration.
During braking and coasting, the system recuperates energy normally lost and stores it in the battery. If necessary, the battery can also be recharged by an external power supply (plug-in hybrid) during service breaks. To charge from 20 to 80 per cent will take around 20 minutes using the dedicated units.

The MGU, which operates at up to 12,000rpm, the battery, which operates at up to 750 volts, and the inverter control unit are sealed in a carbon fibre housing to resist possible forces and impacts in the event of an accident. The unit is designed to withstand a 70G impact.
https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/fia-and-wrc-take-360-degree-approach-to-sustainable-future/

how much energy can regen when braking for each corner? and how much energy can be use for each second when driver use the extra power ? is the hybrid power control by another button like the kers button in F1

[WRCStan]

I just wonder what's the disadvantage for the left foot braker. when they use the throttle and the brake at the same time in the 2022 hybrid car??

With regards to hybrid deployment? If they cancel the boost under acceleration using any brake pressure when the battery is less than 80% charged, they lose what boost they could've had and must go through a full regen cycle to get another booster shot (let's agree to ban this term). How much energy they get to use per boost and need to recover for a valid regen cycle is different per rally and is set by the FIA, so what they lose on is unknown now. Regen under braking has a throttle pedal input tolerance of 30% and brake pressure must be above 5 bar pressure. According to Google/Quora, a typical road car is at full lock around 70 bar (or 96 bar power assisted), so how much energy can be micro-recovered this way remains to be seen but I guess insignificant. So much depends on the stage and the rally.

With regards to handling/approach? Others will have the input here. Lack of the active centre differential may encourage it. Things like suspension setup in terms of pitch/roll and brake biases may play with heads. 10 days or so time we'll see to what extent.

[WRCStan]

how much energy can regen when braking for each corner? and how much energy can be use for each second when driver use the extra power ? is the hybrid power control by another button like the kers button in F1

There's no button - they either have it or don't. Probably best to read the previous pages and links to understand why the other questions can't be answered.

[1988senna]

There's a difference to using your left foot for braking (while not throttling) and doing the "left-foot-braking" which is used to balance the car to improve turn-in.

From what I've heard from various interviews, Ogier's style is to brake before corner, roll through the corner and apply throttle upon reaching exit angle. Thus there's no simultaneous braking and throttling.

Out of the current drivers Esapekka Lappi seems to be a heavy left-foot-braker, braking lights are alight while turning as well. Remember when he and Ogier were teammates at Citroen, they struggled to find suitable front diff ramps for Esapekka.


There's no button - they either have it or don't. Probably best to read the previous pages and links to understand why the other questions can't be answered.

the drive can't manually control the hybrid boost right?it's the teams set the maps before the stage and so when driver use the throttle the .the hybrid boost will active automatically?

[1988senna]

Rally1 hybrid system explained by M-Sport:

https://youtu.be/-mbCJecCDr8

I'm not clear by this video for 2 point
1.if there have 80 kilometre with 4 stages to go and no service between the stage. how can the driver make the regen if the 100 KW used out

2.why the driver must use the EV mode .is that mean they will use more electrical energy from the battery? how can they have the advantage

[AnttiL]

I'm not clear by this video for 2 point
1.if there have 80 kilometre with 4 stages to go and no service between the stage. how can the driver make the regen if the 100 KW used out

2.why the driver must use the EV mode .is that mean they will use more electrical energy from the battery? how can they have the advantage

1. The car can regen the battery during the liaison or during the stage through braking
2. EV mode is shutting off the ICE engine in city sections and service park. Advantage? It's positive image.

[AnttiL]

the drive can't manually control the hybrid boost right?it's the teams set the maps before the stage and so when driver use the throttle the .the hybrid boost will active automatically?

Essentially yes. You are always entitled to hybrid boost on the start line. Subsequently you need to brake to regenerate power and recharge the battery to then deploy a new boost.

And the driver can only switch off the hybrid boost for example on an icy section on a Monte stage with slicks.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So will small dabs of (left-foot) braking to adjust the car be enough to stop the hybrid boost and require another regen cycle or not ?

[AnttiL]

So will small dabs of (left-foot) braking to adjust the car be enough to stop the hybrid boost and require another regen cycle or not ?

Likely yes

[Rallyper]

I remember that already in the era of the fully active 2.0 litre WRC they often said that left foot braking isn't needed if you set the diff maps right (at least on asphalt). After all the left foot braking wastes energy and adds heat to the brakes. In pure theory it shall be avoided. The new cars don't have the center diff and shall therefore behave more like an overpowered R5 car. It would be interesting to hear from the drivers how much they actually use it in them.



There's a difference to using your left foot for braking (while not throttling) and doing the "left-foot-braking" which is used to balance the car to improve turn-in.

From what I've heard from various interviews, Ogier's style is to brake before corner, roll through the corner and apply throttle upon reaching exit angle. Thus there's no simultaneous braking and throttling.

Out of the current drivers Esapekka Lappi seems to be a heavy left-foot-braker, braking lights are alight while turning as well. Remember when he and Ogier were teammates at Citroen, they struggled to find suitable front diff ramps for Esapekka.

Left-foot breaking is used for many reasons, as mentioned above. Third reason is the time it takes to move right foot from throttle and back just for breaking. So left-foot breaking I guess is used by every (fast) driver. Even driving RWD rallycars you perfectly can use left-foot breaking, if car has dogbox gerabox. However not at same time throttling in corners... :)

[AnttiL]

Left-foot breaking is used for many reasons, as mentioned above. Third reason is the time it takes to move right foot from throttle and back just for breaking. So left-foot breaking I guess is used by every (fast) driver. Even driving RWD rallycars you perfectly can use left-foot breaking, if car has dogbox gerabox. However not at same time throttling in corners... :)

I tried to explain that these are two different things

1. Using left foot to brake, but never braking and throttling at the same timebecause the cars don't need the clutch (your #3 falls into this same category).
2. "Left-foot braking" as Rauno Aaltonen invented it in the 50's, to make the car shift weight to the front wheels and thus increasing grip and helping turn-in, and also on FWD cars it would make the rear wheels possibly lock and slide while the front wheels would still have torque. Also useful for early turbo engines to keep turbo rolling but still drive at slower speed

#1 will still be useful for Rally1 cars. #2 is be a technique that will likely be used less.

[Rallyper]

I tried to explain that these are two different things

1. Using left foot to brake, but never braking and throttling at the same timebecause the cars don't need the clutch (your #3 falls into this same category).
2. "Left-foot braking" as Rauno Aaltonen invented it in the 50's, to make the car shift weight to the front wheels and thus increasing grip and helping turn-in, and also on FWD cars it would make the rear wheels possibly lock and slide while the front wheels would still have torque. Also useful for early turbo engines to keep turbo rolling but still drive at slower speed

#1 will still be useful for Rally1 cars. #2 is be a technique that will likely be used less.

#2 Also giving FWD cars with no difflock getting both wheels work in corners (on winter and gravel conditions) by breaking same time as throttling. Maybe that was more of Aaltonen advantages than weight shifting...

[Rallyper]

Breen off on PET.

[1988senna]

Essentially yes. You are always entitled to hybrid boost on the start line. Subsequently you need to brake to regenerate power and recharge the battery to then deploy a new boost.

And the driver can only switch off the hybrid boost for example on an icy section on a Monte stage with slicks.

So for the video as also mentioned that the boost lenth depend on the lenth of of stage ,The total energy have only 100KW, Is there have the boost difference for each boost by the ECU?

For 4KM stage, each boost have 130 HP,But for 40KM stage ,each boost have only 13 HP to saving more energy for the rest of the stage ??

[AnttiL]

#2 Also giving FWD cars with no difflock getting both wheels work in corners (on winter and gravel conditions) by breaking same time as throttling. Maybe that was more of Aaltonen advantages than weight shifting...

Aaltonen explained this in a podcast last year. When he got into rallying (after circuit racing) he was told to use the handbrake to get the car turned in. He found this inconvenient, since his both arms were occupied by steering wheel and gear shift. But he noticed his left foot was unoccupied, and thought about using the brake, and it worked. The main effect in those days was to lock the rear wheels and get them sliding.

[Rallyper]

Aaltonen explained this in a podcast last year. When he got into rallying (after circuit racing) he was told to use the handbrake to get the car turned in. He found this inconvenient, since his both arms were occupied by steering wheel and gear shift. But he noticed his left foot was unoccupied, and thought about using the brake, and it worked. The main effect in those days was to lock the rear wheels and get them sliding.

Other effect described was most important driving Saabs in 70´s... however getting them locking rear breaks was also important, especially with very slippery conditions.

[WRCStan]

2. "Left-foot braking" as Rauno Aaltonen invented it in the 50's, to make the car shift weight to the front wheels and thus increasing grip and helping turn-in, and also on FWD cars it would make the rear wheels possibly lock and slide while the front wheels would still have torque. Also useful for early turbo engines to keep turbo rolling but still drive at slower speed

#2 is be a technique that will likely be used less.

So no concerns that changes in diff set up and simpler suspension in the new cars will influence things?

Might be worth being clear for anyone new to this that left-foot weight balancing happens even where there's no obvious left or right bend in the road or need to slow down. In XYZ axes through the car steering only takes care of Z. Roads go up/downhill, have cambers, ditches, subsidence and potholes, jumps and crests, variable traction, are infinitely describable and generally want to throw a moving car about, but is more pronounced on jacked and soft suspension.

Within the context of the hybrid package it's irrelevant if you use left or right foot to slow the car. The biggest unknown is how often and how much the boost is available. We don't know if it's 150m or 5km per 15km stage, or 150m or 5km on the next 15km stage, or if there's enough to still be in use at speeds where lfb is mostly used following an acceleration assisted boost. Driving style talk may be insignificant!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Loeb hasn't had much testing in the Puma hybrid. But he may remember driving this car from 2008 !

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1029991_citroen-c4-wrc-hymotion4-hybrid-rally-car-concept

[Mirek]

Left-foot breaking is used for many reasons, as mentioned above. Third reason is the time it takes to move right foot from throttle and back just for breaking. So left-foot breaking I guess is used by every (fast) driver. Even driving RWD rallycars you perfectly can use left-foot breaking, if car has dogbox gerabox. However not at same time throttling in corners... :)

I meant only simultaneous braking and pushing the throttle. Sorry if I was not clear.

[Mirek]

So for the video as also mentioned that the boost lenth depend on the lenth of of stage ,The total energy have only 100KW, Is there have the boost difference for each boost by the ECU?

For 4KM stage, each boost have 130 HP,But for 40KM stage ,each boost have only 13 HP to saving more energy for the rest of the stage ??

Man, please aducate yourself in basic physics. Your questions make no sense whatsoever.

First kW or Hp is NOT a unit of energy. It is a unit of power which is a different thing. Power is a quantity used to describe energy flow per unit of time.

The energy is described by joule or Wh (power multiplied by time). In this case the energy is 3,9 kWh which means that the battery is large enough to give the car 3,9 kW steady power for 1 hour, or 234 kW for one minute. That is of course without any recuperation, i.e. recharging by braking power.

The extra power the WRC system can deliver is 100 kW. Now divide 3,9 kWh by 100 kW and you get that the battery capacity is enough for 2,5 minutes of full boost. For city cruising on the road section it can be likely around 3x more.

But of course the recuperation adds a lot of energy. We don't know what recharging power can be used in WRC cars but a heavy braking produces much higher power than the extra boost, which means that the time spend on braking to recharge the energy is not long.

[1988senna]

Man, please aducate yourself in basic physics. Your questions make no sense whatsoever.

First kW or Hp is NOT a unit of energy. It is a unit of power which is a different thing. Power is a quantity used to describe energy flow per unit of time.

The energy is described by joule or Wh (power multiplied by time). In this case the energy is 3,9 kWh which means that the battery is large enough to give the car 3,9 kW steady power for 1 hour, or 234 kW for one minute. That is of course without any recuperation, i.e. recharging by braking power.

The extra power the WRC system can deliver is 100 kW. Now divide 3,9 kWh by 100 kW and you get that the battery capacity is enough for 2,5 minutes of full boost. For city cruising on the road section it can be likely around 3x more.

But of course the recuperation adds a lot of energy. We don't know what recharging power can be used in WRC cars but a heavy braking produces much higher power than the extra boost, which means that the time spend on braking to recharge the energy is not long.

thanks for explain .I really misunderstand the kW and the kWh. if it's 80% of the total capacity always .then the really capacity is 3.12kWh right?

I see some artical said the driver can make the regen to let the battery up to 80% during the road section .so that it can be ready for next stage.but if there have not enough length road section or not enough time for regen to back to 80%.what could the driver do

and for the boost time. the 3.9kWh can boost for 2.5 minutes with 100kw .so if there have the long long straight during the stage.will the driver make the boost as long as possible or they will touch the brake to end boost to save the energy

will the team reduce the each boost power less than 100kw(90kw 80kw ) for the long stage like 40km with more long straight stage in Finland

[WRCStan]

thanks for explain .I really misunderstand the kW and the kWh. if it's 80% of the total capacity always .then the really capacity is 3.12kWh right?

The battery capability goes down with energy use and back up with energy regeneration/recovery through braking.
Energy is measured in joules
Power is a rate of flow measured in Watts, 1 watt = 1 joule/second
(1kw = 1000w, 1kj = 1000j)
Capacity is useful when using time instead of maths with joules - so Kilowatt hours. As in, that battery will offer *kw for 1 hour at *kwh.

This battery:
3.9kwh rated capacity
3900wh
3900j/s for an hour
234,000j/s for a minute
14,040,000j/s for a second
14,040kj energy when full or at capacity

FIA rule of Launch Boost limit of 1000kj is known
100KW rated max power consumption of the propulsion motor
100kj/s
1000kj / 100kj/s = max 10 seconds (as seen noted in various places)
1000kj = max 7.1% battery capacity used at launch


I see some artical said the driver can make the regen to let the battery up to 80% during the road section .so that it can be ready for next stage.but if there have not enough length road section or not enough time for regen to back to 80%.what could the driver do

It's part of the fun. No juice, no boost. Have you got a source for that 80%? Has anybody seen the start line state of charge supposedly in the manufacturer's user guide?


and for the boost time. the 3.9kWh can boost for 2.5 minutes with 100kw .so if there have the long long straight during the stage.will the driver make the boost as long as possible or they will touch the brake to end boost to save the energy

There are limits set for each stage by the FIA for how much energy can be used in one boost before having to regen, the regen is also a minimum FIA set limit to recover. We don't know what they are yet to have a meaningful answer.


will the team reduce the each boost power less than 100kw(90kw 80kw ) for the long stage like 40km with more long straight stage in Finland

No. Energy will be recovered through braking. Have a mooch at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhGDYDkrb8M. The torque maps and how the electric motor integrates with the engine is beyond me.

[1988senna]

The battery capability goes down with energy use and back up with energy regeneration/recovery through braking.
Energy is measured in joules
Power is a rate of flow measured in Watts, 1 watt = 1 joule/second
(1kw = 1000w, 1kj = 1000j)
Capacity is useful when using time instead of maths with joules - so Kilowatt hours. As in, that battery will offer *kw for 1 hour at *kwh.

This battery:
3.9kwh rated capacity
3900wh
3900j/s for an hour
234,000j/s for a minute
14,040,000j/s for a second
14,040kj energy when full or at capacity

FIA rule of Launch Boost limit of 1000kj is known
100KW rated max power consumption of the propulsion motor
100kj/s
1000kj / 100kj/s = max 10 seconds (as seen noted in various places)
1000kj = max 7.1% battery capacity used at launch



It's part of the fun. No juice, no boost. Have you got a source for that 80%? Has anybody seen the start line state of charge supposedly in the manufacturer's user guide?



There are limits set for each stage by the FIA for how much energy can be used in one boost before having to regen, the regen is also a minimum FIA set limit to recover. We don't know what they are yet to have a meaningful answer.



No. Energy will be recovered through braking. Have a mooch at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhGDYDkrb8M. The torque maps and how the electric motor integrates with the engine is beyond me.
thanks for your details explain
so from my understanding the each boost power is the same 100 kw no matter what stage .but the each boost time should be decide by the FIA for different stage (like 6 seconds for short stage and
3 seconds for longer stage unless take the brake earlier ),but I believe each boost time can't be longer than 10 seconds

[RS]

I guess the ‘less-aero’ rules only apply to the front of the new cars? They all seem to have picnic tables attached to the rear hatch still..

[Franky]

I guess the ‘less-aero’ rules only apply to the front of the new cars? They all seem to have picnic tables attached to the rear hatch still..

But the picnic tables are a complete set now as there's a bench as well.

[denkimi]

I guess the ‘less-aero’ rules only apply to the front of the new cars? They all seem to have picnic tables attached to the rear hatch still..
No more diffuser.

[drive]

and no more vents to extract air from the wheel arches (cd decks) in the rear of wheel arches

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Re the regen by braking...

When a driver brakes sufficiently hard does the regen system then activate to slow the car, partially slow the car, or do the brakes & pads still do all the stopping ?

[Mirek]

No more diffuser.

Sort of... I'd say the awkward rear bumpers are made along an idea like this: "Let's make the best diffuser which doesn't look too much as a diffuser."

[Mirek]

Re the regen by braking...

When a driver brakes sufficiently hard does the regen system then activate to slow the car, partially slow the car, or do the brakes & pads still do all the stopping ?

The regen of course slows down the car, it can not work other way according to the laws of physics (you take away the kinetic energy of the car and transform it into electricity). It helps to the brakes because you don't need that much braking power from the brakes alone (and therefore you also don't heat them that much).

When you drive an EV you don't need brakes at all for common gentle braking.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The regen of course slows down the car, it can not work other way according to the laws of physics (you take away the kinetic energy of the car and transform it into electricity). It helps to the brakes because you don't need that much braking power from the brakes alone (and therefore you also don't heat them that much).

When you drive an EV you don't need brakes at all for common gentle braking.

I heard the new Audi e-Tron running at the Dakar can do the whole event on one set of brake pads. I daresay the Rally1 cars will be much lighter on brake wear too.

[Mirek]

and for the boost time. the 3.9kWh can boost for 2.5 minutes with 100kw .so if there have the long long straight during the stage.will the driver make the boost as long as possible or they will touch the brake to end boost to save the energy


There are limits set for each stage by the FIA for how much energy can be used in one boost before having to regen, the regen is also a minimum FIA set limit to recover. We don't know what they are yet to have a meaningful answer.

Not only that. It also doesn't make sense from technical point of view. The time to reach the top speed from standstill is probably around 15 seconds. You don't need any extra boost to keep the top speed.

[Mirek]

I heard the new Audi e-Tron running at the Dakar can do the whole event on one set of brake pads. I daresay the Rally1 cars will be much lighter on brake wear too.

I'm known as a no fan of EVs here on the forum but this is actually a great thing because one of the major sources of polution caused by the vehicle traffic is the dust from the brake pads.

[Sulland]

Thinking reliability, especially in the beginning of the season.
If the hybrid pack stops working, can drivers continue at topspeed from the ICE without any damage?
Any other bits and pieces that are new, that represent reliability risk?

[RS]

I heard the new Audi e-Tron running at the Dakar can do the whole event on one set of brake pads. I daresay the Rally1 cars will be much lighter on brake wear too.

The next generation Formula E car has no conventional rear brakes at all (regen only)

[kubiczech]

But of course the recuperation adds a lot of energy. We don't know what recharging power can be used in WRC cars but a heavy braking produces much higher power than the extra boost, which means that the time spend on braking to recharge the energy is not long.

Wrcwings says:
f) the recuperation by braking is limited to 30kW, no matter how hard a driver brakes,


https://www.wrcwings.tech/2021/09/14/2022-rally1-cars-hybrid-system-operation-aero-implications/

[AnttiL]

Thinking reliability, especially in the beginning of the season.
If the hybrid pack stops working, can drivers continue at topspeed from the ICE without any damage?
Any other bits and pieces that are new, that represent reliability risk?

Yes they can disconnect the unit but they will lose the power boost.

[WRCStan]

thanks for your details explain
so from my understanding the each boost power is the same 100 kw no matter what stage .but the each boost time should be decide by the FIA for different stage (like 6 seconds for short stage and
3 seconds for longer stage unless take the brake earlier ),but I believe each boost time can't be longer than 10 seconds

I'm glad you ask actually because you are making me think about this. Here's my understanding and if I get it wrong hopefully a pro engineer will correct us.

My understanding is the power is maximum 100kw, so in purely electric motor mode the throttle pedal may relate 0-100% of 100kw. But when combined with the ICE engine, which has it's own torque curve through revs, you might not necessarily want that linear throttle pedal to electric motor relationship. Then there is surface traction and driving style to think about.

The teams have three torque demand maps to set before the season starts, but can change these once this season. The ICE has it's own demand map too to consider (it isn't linear). The drivers can choose one of these new electric motor maps before each stage. These are mapping the power output of the electric motor to the throttle pedal position (driver's demand) (and/or maybe the engine output I'm not sure). They may want 100% electric power by half the pedal, or only start from half way, they may choose only 100% motor at 100% pedal and nothing else. The point is there are 3 strategies for the team to play with. Tom Fowler at Toyota said it'll be likely based on surface type. You can wheelspin on gravel if you go full whack early or you could get a grippy launch on dry asphalt. https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-the-wrcs-hybrid-boost-will-work/

The FIA will determine only energy limits for on-stage boosts per stage, so it's not time. This might be more than the 1000kj given for the launch boost. I assumed everybody will launch at 100% power earlier and maybe I misunderstood your question, so given the torque maps, they may use half the power for twice as long, who knows.

If the FIA give a small deployment energy limit, what is the point in the battery capacity other than the 5km of emission free driving. If they give large amounts, then why cancel it at smidgen of brake and force another regen. Likely then, the regen will be smaller than the deployment limit. Difficult to wrap my head around at this point and I'd hoped these limits were made public for us nerds.

[becher]

There has been comments from drivers about the switch to "stick shift" and the potential to damage the gearbox. As far as I undrstand, they will still be running a sequentiel dogbox, and only got rid of a fairly "simple" hydraulic system to actuate the gearbox. If my understanding of the regulations is correct, how would that be a significant cost saving like the FIA claims and how would one be able to damage the gearbox any more than with a paddle actuated gearbox?