New R4 Car - Think Tank [Archive]

vino_93

12th October 2014, 10:50

Here in South America I think that the Maxi Rally solution is good, considering the economic situation we have here, in which bringing things from outside is really expensive (Brazil and Argentina is like that).

They use the same engine, transmission and diffs for all cars, only the chassis and suspensions are free. In that way, they have a cheaper option for a 4wd car, and some more manufactures can support teams.

During last Rally argentina, I read an interview of the ingeneer working on MR that FIA was looking to adopt it to new N4 categories (maybe with some change).But since, nothing new ...

For me, FIA just think to let people homologate the car they want in N4 category (with technical rules of course), as it's for RGT now. N4 are important in a lot of country. It's a good market for teams like Prodrive f.e. to develop a car. But today you need the agreement of the manufacturer ... and most of them don't care about N4, R3, R2, R1 ...

Sulland

12th October 2014, 15:06

Threads for the two sudam categories here:
Maxi rally: http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?25168-Maxi-Rally-Class
Xtreme Rally: http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?29778-Xtreme-Rally-Car-Brasil

But Fia Is also looking to downsize when you see the neu R1-R3 rules and turbo rules and reg.

But I like the concept of a private tuners class!

Co-driven

12th October 2014, 17:46

Here in Brazil the XRC uses a Chevrolet V6 engine, but the idea was the same as the Argentinean Maxi Rally cars. But here, drivers still think it's expensive and, besides that, there are still some reliability issues.

I heard that the Baratec team was working on a project to use a 1, 6 liter, turbocharged engine on the Maxi Rally car, and that would make easier to get a Fia homologation. Don't know how far the project is right now...

Sulland

12th October 2014, 21:25

Baratec are working on a 1600T project.
http://www.baratec-rally.com.ar/maxirally.html
The site does not tell much on status of the project. Anyone that knows?

Zeakiwi

13th October 2014, 12:15

WMC look like they are putting the N4 with the R4 cars.
'Current Group N4 cars will be renamed as R4, in order to integrate them into the rally pyramid. This applies to all cars in the category worldwide.'

IMHO - The car rules need to be for each country/ region as each place has a different set of economic circumstances and the cars will differ, concentrate on making what is used safe and keep a ceiling on places that can afford ultra high performance cars.

AndyRAC

13th October 2014, 13:27

I'm sure I read that Mitsubishi are dropping the Lancer Evo, which means only Subaru build a GpN4 car.

OldF

13th October 2014, 19:49

What’s the price of a Maxi Rally car nowadays? In the thread http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?25168-Maxi-Rally-Class/page2 the price was said to be 150 000 – 180 000 $ (119 000 – 142 000 €).

For me, FIA just think to let people homologate the car they want in N4 category (with technical rules of course), as it's for RGT now.

That’s my thoughts also and maybe it’s the only way to go if there’s soon no base cars to build a N4/R4 from. Of course teams like Prodrive and M-Sport would like to build these cars but there should be a possability also for privateers to build the cars locally with a passport without a need for a homologation.

I had a look at http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/ (search “s2000”) and the price of S2000 cars is between 115 000 – 165 000 €.

But today you need the agreement of the manufacturer ... and most of them don't care about N4, R3, R2, R1 ...

Afaik RGT rules don’t need any manufacturer involvement.

Jack4688`

13th October 2014, 19:58

How suitable would something like a VW Golf R, Audi S3, BMW 1-Series X-Drive or Merc A-Class 4Matic be for R4-type regs? I know these cars are unlikely to materialise but they are the closest current-day thing to a Delta Integrale, Escort Cosworth, Mitsubishi Evo etc.

Permanently lock the centre diffs on the VW, Audi and Merc (not sure of the 4WD system on the BMW), or switch the centre diff from a Haldex to something more appropriate for Rallying and all you'll need then is a 2.0T petrol engine (if not already fitted to one of the road cars).

Mirek

13th October 2014, 20:26

I had a look at http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/ (search “s2000”) and the price of S2000 cars is between 115 000 – 165 000 €.

S2000 are very cheap now but around 2010-2011 the top cars cost around 300 thousand Euro simply because there was nothing better available.

Afaik RGT rules don’t need any manufacturer involvement.

The way how it's done with RGT is impossible for cars built in big numbers. Imagine how many people would have to be hired by FIA to make a "mini-homologation" for every single car? The way for me is to homologate only properties (and only the "better" limit) to allow free choice of suppliers.

How suitable would something like a VW Golf R, Audi S3, BMW 1-Series X-Drive or Merc A-Class 4Matic be for R4-type regs? I know these cars are unlikely to materialise but they are the closest current-day thing to a Delta Integrale, Escort Cosworth, Mitsubishi Evo etc.

Not very suitable. None of the cars You mentioned has central differential. They all use part-time 4WD transmission using Haldex clutch or similar systems. I don't think those can be used with success in rallying. At least not before the Evos and STIs disappear.

Jack4688`

13th October 2014, 21:13

Not very suitable. None of the cars You mentioned has central differential. They all use part-time 4WD transmission using Haldex clutch or similar systems. I don't think those can be used with success in rallying. At least not before the Evos and STIs disappear.

That's why I suggested locking up the Haldex or replacing it with something more suitable

Zeakiwi

14th October 2014, 01:40

At what point does it become better to build a spaceframe from the ground rather than buy and road and start modifying it ?
http://www.olsbergs.com/upload/documents/Broschyrer/Supercar_Lites_eng.pdf . Make it so you can fit the panels, badges and engine of the manufacture silhouette you wish to represent.
There was a bit shown during the turkey world rallycross tv screening. I think they mentioned 1000 hours for a supercar lite. How does that compare to r5 fiesta etc ?

AdvEvo

14th October 2014, 14:32

The rally sport really needs a 4wd car which can be bought and maintained for normal budgets. The R5 is the starting class for 4wd nowadays. Way to expensive to start with 4wd rallying. Replacement for Group N is really necessary!!!

But what to choose.

How about an Audi A1 with a new 4wd setup. Would be nice to see Audi again.

Rallyper

14th October 2014, 18:27

Suzuki Swift with additional transmission kit and 1,6 T. What a business for Monster!

OldF

14th October 2014, 20:30

S2000 are very cheap now but around 2010-2011 the top cars cost around 300 thousand Euro simply because there was nothing better available

That was my point, to show how much the prices of the S2000 cars have decreased.

The way how it's done with RGT is impossible for cars built in big numbers. Imagine how many people would have to be hired by FIA to make a "mini-homologation" for every single car? The way for me is to homologate only properties (and only the "better" limit) to allow free choice of suppliers.

I was thinking to give that job to the local ASN ;). But anyway, the simpler it is the better.

In Finland the V1600 class, which only need a passport, has been in use since end of 2005. So far more than 130 cars have got the passport of which about 50 is used in rallying. The one who has made the statistics (Ralf Pettersson) has put the V1600 cars in the group N category. By his statistics last year there was 150 group N cars in Finland, so the V1600 cars is 33% of the total amount.

http://www.tenab.net/rafu/lkm2013.htm

Imo one important factor is that the maintenance of the car can be done by yourself or by your team.

Below is an example for a season budget (Vauhdin Maailma 11/2007) with a N4 car from 2007. The car is not included and in the article was said that top car in FCR in those days was about 100 000 €. As you can see the car is only a part of the game. Note that the rallies in FCR is mostly one day rallies.

Rallying costs:
Entry fees 3200 € (á 400 €. 1 two day rally, 6 one day rally)
Accommodations 2340 € (á 90 € * 26)
Travelling 560 € (á 80 € * 7)
Food (á 120 € * 7)
Racing fuel / litre 6,20 € * 1000 l = 6200 €
Diesel (for transporting of the car etc.) á 100 € * 7 = 700 €
Tyres, winter 345 € * 30 = 10350 €
Tyres, summer 245 € * 30 = 7350 €
Insurance 2500 € * 7 = 17500 €
Accessories, spare parts etc. 2500 €
Total = 51540 € (64,7 %)

Testing costs:
Racing fuel 6,20 € * 400 = 2480 €
Tyres 1500 € (Usually with used tyres)
Set up work, lunch, payment for test road, permission fee etc.
Total = 7480 € (9,4 %)

General expenses:
Traffic + transporting insurance 750 €
Tools and small accessories 2500 €
Clothes 500 €
Ads + marketing materials 1500 €
Total = 6750 € (8,5 %)

Maintenance costs:
Rally-specific costs 350 € * 7 = 2450 € (wear parts, cost doesn’t include own work)
Seasonal maintenance 1: 3500 € (Maintenance of transmission, dampers and turbo. Cost doesn’t include own work)
Seasonal maintenance 2: 6500 € (Maintenance of engine, transmission, dampers and turbo. Cost doesn’t include own work)
Repair of equipments etc. 1500 € (Cost doesn’t include own work)
Total = 13950 € (17,5 %)

Total season costs = 79720 €

Income:
Co-operation agreements (as they called it): 2 * > 10000 €, 2 * 5000 – 10000 €, 2 * 2000 – 5000 €, 10 * < 2000 € per season.
Customer events, 5 events: 5500 €
VIP events, 4 events: 6000 €
Sales (mostly used tyres): 4500 €
Service sales: 3500 €
Other incomes: 1500 €
Total = 63000 €

Sum total = -16720 €

Abarth

26th October 2014, 14:35

Suzuki Swift with additional transmission kit and 1,6 T. What a business for Monster!

Could be good business for many tuners, and cheap.
Or spaceframe silhuette with either N4 engine/ 4wd system. Also cheap way.

Sulland

25th November 2014, 17:36

Any more good ideas for a simple and cheap 4wd class?

Abarth

2nd December 2014, 18:02

Rallying fore sure need a new R4, maybe a simple car with a standard motorcycle engine as in GP2?

Sorry for that S2000 class could not go on. Biggest success in long time. Abarth also quit, the baby 500 too small.

AdvEvo

19th January 2015, 13:15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj-oDRuLnJA

2015 brings a new sti group N

The car is much to big. They should bring such car in much smaller package then i would be interested.

vino_93

19th January 2015, 13:28

does anyone know if the previous JRM Sub car has been sold to some drivers ?

Franky

19th January 2015, 18:18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj-oDRuLnJA

2015 brings a new sti group N

The car is much to big. They should bring such car in much smaller package then i would be interested.

It's big compared to those ridiculously small Fiestas, Polos, i20s etc. 4,5m meters is a proper car, not a shopping trolley

tommeke_B

19th January 2015, 18:48

It's big compared to those ridiculously small Fiestas, Polos, i20s etc. 4,5m meters is a proper car, not a shopping trolley

Maybe a proper car in your opinion, but it's slower...

AndyRAC

19th January 2015, 19:07

No offence, but those cars have had their day. Fine for national/ club events, but for ERC/ WRC....no. Added to that, they tend to be dull.

stefanvv

19th January 2015, 19:27

I still like them better than smaller ones. No matter the speed.

AdvEvo

19th January 2015, 19:50

WRC of today are very very tiny cars. In my opinion they are to small. But the new STI is to big. The 2000 version of the 2 door impreza rally car is for me the perfect size for a rally car.

tommeke_B

19th January 2015, 19:55

WRC of today are very very tiny cars. In my opinion they are to small. But the new STI is to big. The 2000 version of the 2 door impreza rally car is for me the perfect size for a rally car.
The wheel-base of Subaru Impreza S5 WRC is maybe 3 to 4cm longer than actual 1.6T WRC cars... ;) The car has more "overhang", in total it's maybe something like 30-40cm longer than the "very very tiny" current WRC cars. Fact is that the cars on car market are growing all the time, and compared to the average car on the market, a current WRC car is smaller than 15 years ago indeed...

Mirek

19th January 2015, 21:44

stefanvv

19th January 2015, 22:00

People get a lot confused by the fact that the WRC cars are made of supermini class. Problem is that the class has grown a lot through the years while new classes appeared bellow. Current WRC cars are all around 4 meters long which means they are larger than cars like Peugeot 205, 206, Lancia Delta etc.

This is also true. Still small class cars look little funny with all the spoilers and oversized wheel arches attached to them. Probably that's why people recognize shopping trolleys in them. You can't deny cars are getting smaller and smaller in that respect or another.

Mirek

19th January 2015, 22:37

stefanvv

19th January 2015, 22:43

I don't agree. Cars generally get bigger and bigger same as the people. Just compare Golf I with Golf VII. Golf I is smaller than today's Polo! The trend in the rallycars is mainly given by the efficiency. While big cars are simply too big, heavy and clumsy, too small cars are difficult to balance and tend to be unstable on high speeds. That's why we have the cars as we have. They are neither too small nor too big. The only difference is that while the needs and wishes of car buyers moved towards bigger cars the needs of motorsport stayed same.

Yes, I got Your point abut the actual size of the cars. Another point is they still look like a small cars, and from aesthetic point of view, they are small and ugly. With some more bigger cars with lets say 10cm more longer wheel base, there is much more room for more aesthetic look and fine lines of the car with all the aero packages enough for the speed in Rally.

BTW 205 T16 and Delta Integrale also looked small in my opinion:)

Only my opinion that is.

Mirek

19th January 2015, 22:48

Jack4688`

19th January 2015, 22:51

I think it's a little short-sighted to just quote the overall length though. That Hyundai looks ridiculous in some angles because the bonnet is so short giving the impression of a small vehicle, no matter what you're told the overall length is compared to older generation cars - something we mostly see through rose-tinted spectacles.

Though modern superminis tend to be bigger than their predecessors they have grown in length and height disproportionately to their width. So cars like the Fiesta are quite narrow and shouldn't really work, but the huuuuge wheel arches make it look similar in impact as the 2000-2002 Focus WRC (just my opinion). I think the Fabia (MKI WRC, MKII S2000 and MKIII R5 all included) and Polo WRC all work well because the proportions are right. Cars like the DS3, i20 and Yaris have very short bonnets and overall look out of place as WRC-spec rally cars. The new i20 'coupe' looks like it should work well and let's not forget the 205 T16 was a supermini, I don't know how much it shared with standard 205s i.e was the wheelbase the same, were the headlights the same distance apart... Or did it look outwardly like a 205 but sharing absolutely no dimensions?

This Subaru on the other hand, like the road car is so big the wheels look like they're off an actual shopping trolley - I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that the road car has 18" wheels; they are just swallowed up by that body! It would be more interesting if the car was built to some extreme rally regs that meant it looked spectacular on the move.

Car size isn't all that important; variety and good looking cars are. My point is if the i20, for example, is similar in size to a Delta Integrale by some dimension I don't care - the i20 just looks shit.

stefanvv

19th January 2015, 22:54

Maybe funny fact... Peugeot 208 T16 has 2 cm larger wheelbase than Octavia WRC. That itself should say a lot about the development as any mass fitted outside of the axes is purely negative to the handling.

It probably has, I don't know, it doesn't help for the look, for sure it has effect on handling in proportion of the overall size, besides the central mounted engine

Mirek

19th January 2015, 23:26

I meant 208 not 205. 205 is quite a lot smaller and such wheelbase would not be possible with it ;)

Anyway one thing which ruins the feeling of the size is what Jack came with. It's the huge height of the bonnet. This is mainly result of pedestrian safety regulations. Simply the more space between the bonnet and the cylinder head the bigger chance the pedestrian's head won't get smashed. Similar thing came from side-impact crash tests. Windows got smaller, steel got more massive. And finally the third points is space. People sitting higher need less longitudinal space hence the cars get higher. The negative side of all of that is the look when even really big wheels look strangely small in the mass of steel around.

stefanvv

19th January 2015, 23:32

I meant 208 not 205. 205 is quite a lot smaller and such wheelbase would not be possible with it ;)

Ah yes, silly me, didn't read the '8' before T16 while in my previous post I meant 205 T16.

Anyway one thing which ruins the feeling of the size is what Jack came with. It's the huge height of the bonnet. This is mainly result of pedestrian safety regulations. Simply the more space between the bonnet and the cylinder head the bigger chance the pedestrian's head won't get smashed. Similar thing came from side-impact crash tests. Windows got smaller, steel got more massive. And finally the third points is space. People sitting higher need less longitudinal space hence the cars get higher. The negative side of all of that is the look when even really big wheels look strangely small in the mass of steel around.

May be there is some truth in this don't know, I'm not that expert in current factory cars safety. For me it just looks like 2 door small car with little more space for the passengers and for the luggage, than cars 15-20 years ago, attached with all kind of aerodynamic elements, and big asphalt 18' wheels. They just doesn't seem like aesthetic proportions.

19th January 2015, 23:47

The negative side of all of that is the look when even really big wheels look strangely small in the mass of steel around.

Too true, I had 13in alloys on my Felicia which looked ok, now you need 15in minimum on a Citigo or 16in on a Fabia to look right.

Mirek

20th January 2015, 00:43

May be there is some truth in this don't know, I'm not that expert in current factory cars safety. For me it just looks like 2 door small car with little more space for the passengers and for the luggage, than cars 15-20 years ago, attached with all kind of aerodynamic elements, and big asphalt 18' wheels. They just doesn't seem like aesthetic proportions.

I'm working in car industry R&D although only in interior controls but even there we need to do kind of crash tests like a head impact on the rotary knob by which You adjust the temperature... maybe it's all crazy but in the end it helps people to survive crashes and if the only thing which we need to sacrifice is a bit of the sexy look I think it's a right thing to do.

stefanvv

20th January 2015, 01:00

maybe it's all crazy but in the end it helps people to survive crashes and if the only thing which we need to sacrifice is a bit of the sexy look I think it's a right thing to do.

It's ok for the safety. Though it seem to me only the smaller cars need that bonnet uplifting, cause I don't see the same in bigger car classes. So somehow when the bonnet is shorter (on a small car) the safety must be compensated. BTW I'm far from the definition as "sexy" of aesthetic design. This is narrow minded, and I don't really care how people would call it, there are some universal proportions which are in harmony and just "catch the eye", most people would really call it "sexy".

At the end this is how the world spins, the technology develops, manufacturers can construct smaller vehicles with same effectiveness, no need of extra parts/weight like middle differential like in Ur Quattro, engines must be smaller, etc. etc. No one today cares much how their racing cars look like, and how close to the road cars which anyone would by. Probably this is one of the problems with the relation sport - marketing.

Mirek

20th January 2015, 01:10

It's the same with bigger classes. Just put Passat B5 next to B6 to see the difference in one generation (they could go a little back with B7 since they stopped using PD engines with high cylinder head). The thing which compensates it partly with the bigger and more expensive cars is bigger wheels. Nowadays the standard rims for C class are 17" while not so long time a go it was 15". And of course making 40 mm higher bonnet is way more visible on a small car than on a big car even though it's the same value.

Actually here are the Passats, it's easy to see on the windshield lower edge.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/asurroca/51024764/sizes/z/in/photostream/

stefanvv

20th January 2015, 01:44

True, these are more visible on smaller cars indeed. Here the difference also comes from the bigger wheels probably and overall car height, but the most visible difference is the height of the bonnet. Overall it suits much better bigger cars no doubt.

Jack4688`

20th January 2015, 17:45

Cars like the GT86/BRZ and BMW 2-Series manage to look good in the bonnet height department and they're quite small. Perhaps because they don't have any direct predecessors to compare them with?

OK OK I know, the 1-Series coupe is the 2-Series' predecessor, but that's one generation ago, not a direct equivalent from 1994

Jack4688`

20th January 2015, 19:02

Speaking of the BMW 2-Series I often google a car with 'WRC' or 'WTCC' or 'DTM' tagged on the end to see if anyone has photoshopped one and I give you the BMW M235i WRC :D

http://www.gtspirit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/bmw-m-wrc-rendered-an-impossible-dream-88323_1.jpg

AdvEvo

20th January 2015, 19:30

I buy that for my rally needs!

Jack4688`

30th January 2015, 15:54

Interesting article in this week's Motorsport News, semi-related:

Mirek

4th February 2015, 10:18

New gr.N Impreza?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1517810_884293004926043_2784512939499643960_n.jpg? oh=86bc801b21935a6ceabde23b659601b1&oe=554D7A98&__gda__=1433290470_d4b71b93153cd1b44a6c62d1695a6a8 b

vino_93

4th February 2015, 11:47

Yes, they already did some events (Hokkaido + end of japanese champ, Subaru Canada bought one for Rowe)

Co-driven

4th February 2015, 12:06

But in Canada they have a slightly modified version, with sequential gearbox and a ligther car...

AdvEvo

6th February 2015, 14:08

New Focus RS could also be nice base for a group N rallycar.

Jack4688`

6th February 2015, 14:38

It's unlikely but that would be great! There's actually quite a lot of cars in that class with a 4WD performance variant and a rally class based around them would be great. Cheap too if the modifications were kept to a minimum.

Other than standard safety mods i.e roll cage, engine shut-off, fire extinguisher etc. they could be reduced in weight by chucking out all the unnecessaries (including the silencer in the exhaust :D) and have small engine mods allowed to equalise power.

tommeke_B

6th February 2015, 16:31

It can't be used. Engine is a 2.3l EcoBoost.

Mirek

6th February 2015, 17:03

Jack4688`

6th February 2015, 17:23

All I'm suggesting is that cars such as the Focus RS, Golf R, M135i xDrive could be a good starting point for a standalone class. Obviously I haven't done months of R&D with these cars working out what mechanical parts are not suitable for rallying, what modifications are necessitated, how much cost would actually be involved etc. Or should I have done that before expressing a thought on a forum?

Arnold Triyudho Wardono

6th February 2015, 17:32

But in Canada they have a slightly modified version, with sequential gearbox and a ligther car...

You mean Open Class? (like David Higgins's Impreza).

And this STi model is the best Impreza since GC.

OldF

6th February 2015, 17:38

Does FIA even homologate any new N-group cars? If it’s true what Wikipedia tells, no new homologations from 2013.

“The Group N regulations were officially replaced in 2013.[1] No new cars will be homologated under Group A or Group N regulations, and instead existing cars are reclassified according to Group R rules (specifically the R4 class). The R4 class itself will be gradually phased out.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_N

The N4 cars was also renamed to R4.

“Current Group N4 cars will be renamed as R4, in order to integrate them into the rally pyramid. This applies to all cars in the category worldwide.”

http://www.fia.com/world-motor-sport-council-2014-beijing

Maybe some new R4 regulations from 2017? Otherwise there will be a gap in the pyramid.:dozey:

pantealex

10th February 2015, 16:53

You mean Open Class? (like David Higgins's Impreza).

And this STi model is the best Impreza since GC.

Impreza?

it´s just Subaru WRX STI

current impreza is boring 5-door car with 1.6 non turbo engine.

OldF

10th February 2015, 19:14

Does FIA even homologate any new N-group cars? If it’s true what Wikipedia tells, no new homologations from 2013.

I have to quote myself.

I checked today from our ASN about the N-group homologation and yes, it’s still possible to homologate new N-group cars. The info on FIA’s pages are not so up to date.

Sulland

1st April 2015, 00:52

If you could design the rules and regulations for a new entry class for the 4 wd world.

3 pre conditions
a. Tuners can homologate via national ASN.
b. Hp per kg limit
c. Standard gearbox, diffs and suspension, made for durability.

There has to be a way apart from one class to get a new car class that is could form a starting point for privat drivers both nationally and internationally?

Rallyper

1st April 2015, 01:43

Gearbox must be sekvential dogbox. No driver want to drive with standard gearboxes. Also a reliability matter. There are so many good gb to buy, Sadev, Quaife, Hewland...

Mirek

1st April 2015, 19:12

Sulland

1st April 2015, 21:49

Standard was a bad choice of word.
but what I meant was that as in S2000 you have 1 or 2 manufacturers of gearboxes will be allowed to make sequential gearboxes for this class after a spec.
So not standard as for Gr N.

What can be done to keep the cost down for the rest of the driveline, apart from engine?

Mirek

1st April 2015, 22:04

I don't think that limiting a part to a single supplier would make it cheaper.

Sulland

4th April 2015, 14:09

I feel there is a lack of constructive suggestions on how to fill the R4 hole in the ladder with somethong new.

The reason might of course be that you mean that the is no need to fill it - that is fine, say that.

But if you mean there is a need for an entry level class in to 4 wd rallying, not neccesarely for the World Rally Championship, but more for the national scenes, and maybe the regional as in ERC.

What is the best way to get a reliable and Affordable car for the privateer. I am thinking in the bracket of 60-70 000 euro.
Is the only option to go for a one car class, or can it be achieved using other means to keep the price down as well?

Is this a non starter, if so why?
If you see that this could fly, how?

Mk2 RS2000

13th April 2015, 05:29

OldF

15th April 2015, 20:50

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/default/files/motorsport/documents/Future%20NZRC%20Super%204WD%20Rally%20Cars.pdf

This is where NZ was 8 months ago with their replacement car program, things have progressed since then and are getting closer to finalisation

Teemu/Rallirinki.net (https://twitter.com/HartusvuoriWRC) retweeted https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/580339353420976128/LkzJi87e_bigger.jpg Jack Hintz ‏@rallymadmedia (https://twitter.com/rallymadmedia) 14h14 hours ago (https://twitter.com/rallymadmedia/status/588196506957676547)
This looks familiar...excited that it has been revealed!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCmxmWZWYAAQu86.jpg
(https://twitter.com/rallymadmedia/status/588196506957676547/photo/1)

This is probably a part of the progress.

Bigger pick.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCmxmWZWYAAQu86.jpg:large

OldF

7th May 2015, 19:52

The clock start to click for the Evo. Last 1000 examples batch of evos called “Lancer Evolution Final Edition”.

http://digital.motorsportmonday.com/launch.aspx?eid=8ce071e5-7467-46d3-a744-cff2d280cd27

AdvEvo

8th May 2015, 12:32

If you want a new 4wd car you need to digg deep into your pockets for an r5. 200k plus and add some maintenance costs.

4wd rally has never been cheaper:)

Gordini

8th May 2015, 20:39

What is price of these cars?

Teemu/Rallirinki.net (https://twitter.com/HartusvuoriWRC) retweeted https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/580339353420976128/LkzJi87e_bigger.jpg Jack Hintz ‏@rallymadmedia (https://twitter.com/rallymadmedia) 14h14 hours ago (https://twitter.com/rallymadmedia/status/588196506957676547)
This looks familiar...excited that it has been revealed!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCmxmWZWYAAQu86.jpg
(https://twitter.com/rallymadmedia/status/588196506957676547/photo/1)

This is probably a part of the progress.

Bigger pick.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCmxmWZWYAAQu86.jpg:large

OldF

29th May 2015, 21:22

New R4 in the far future. Could it be this MotorsportMonday (http://digital.motorsportmonday.com/launch.aspx?eid=0fa8a0c9-8934-435f-b4b6-399ac133a69c) (page 94)? Probably it’s very similar to this (http://www.kosunenracing.com/ebuild.html) one. Google translated Finnish section Mitsubishi Colt Evo - Build info (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kosunenracing.com%2Fcoltevo.htm l&edit-text=). The Polish replica use the Kaps sequential gearbox but as said in the Google translation the gearbox is a H-pattern dog box with an Ikeaya Formula sequantial shifter because it’s a poor man’s option (=persaukisen).

Btw, it seems that the Maxi Rally Car formula isn’t as free as I though it is.

http://www.rally.com.au/arc-news/what-is-a-maxi-car-qaa

The cars all use a standard design safety cage together with control front and rear sub-frames, wishbones, hubs & uprights and are fitted to series production car body shells.

http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/wrc/6375-tales-from-argentina-and-their-maxi-rally-cars

The suspension geometry and cross members are the same between each car, so effectively you can buy a “kit” from someone like Barattero, pick a body shell, then slice and dice the chosen car to accept all the parts. About the only thing that varies between them, other than appearance, is the wheel-base.

Maxi Rally Car spare parts from Baratec.
http://www.baratec-rally.com.ar/bajar/catalogo_ing.pdf

Gearbox sequential kit is from Modena Engineering.

Here are the specific regulations for Maxi Rally cars in Spanish
http://www.cdaaca.org.ar/be/%5Cadjuntos%5CRegla_RALLY%20ARGENTINO%20_266201417 921.pdf

And Google translated
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdaaca.org.ar%2Fbe%2F%255Cadjun tos%255CRegla_RALLY%2520ARGENTINO%2520_26620141792 1.pdf&edit-text=

It looks pretty much the same as the S2000 specific regulations but section 5.3, paragraph h) and i) are not in the S2000 Regulations.

h) Front axle:
The same should be done according to the plan contained in the homologation respecting all
dimensions in the plane. (See homologation each illustrative diagram).
Installation of the front axle shall be effected in compliance with the dimensions and measurements shown in Alternative Kit "Maxi Rally".
i) Rear axle:
The same should be done according to the plan contained in the homologation respecting all
dimensions in the plane. (See homologation each illustrative diagram).
Installation of the front axle shall be effected in compliance with the dimensions and measurements shown in Alternative Kit "Maxi Rally"

What I also like is the max track instead of max body shell width.

Sulland

19th September 2015, 19:30

Yes, maybe the Polish option, that build on different shells could be a good option.

or maybe a RWD class ala the Touring Car class?
at least it will be fun to watch, and many drivers love RWD!!

OldF

28th September 2015, 20:37

What will it be this time? Something similar as maxi rally cars?

http://digital.motorsportmonday.com//launch.aspx?eid=63e13dd9-0e32-4111-b2cd-3b2d5bf4e4df (http://digital.motorsportmonday.com/launch.aspx?eid=63e13dd9-0e32-4111-b2cd-3b2d5bf4e4df)

Page 97

…and creating a new R4 kit category aimed at providing a budget-friendly four-wheel-drive category whose costs and performance lie between R3 and R5 cars.

Rally Power

28th September 2015, 23:46

…and creating a new R4 kit category aimed at providing a budget-friendly four-wheel-drive category whose costs and performance lie between R3 and R5 cars.

Are they serious? Why bother to sort a new 4wd category if they can’t manage to impose cost limits? R5 is growing up steadily, so why this sudden need to destabilize the market?

FIA just need to promote a sort of a pact with the involved manus in order to prevent R5 cars to get even more costly, assuring regs stability (to allow larger volume of sales) and ease up homologation methods (aiming private tuners to built them).

Only after that, and if manus persist reluctant to get their profit margins down, it'd be time to think on a new category.

skarderud

29th September 2015, 14:24

It should be easier to make the subaru's and Mitsubishi's (N4/R4/VR4's) good enough to fight with the R5's.

Mirek

29th September 2015, 14:49

I don't agree. There is no point in trying to help a dying man to run faster. Lancers are dead. No new model is planned by Mitsubishi and the last widely used Subaru on rally stages is not even from previous generation of the car! No manufacturers are interested in gr.N anymore. That's it.

On the other hand in my opinion R5 is enough. If they come again with something "cheaper" they will only make R5 more expensive. They shall concentrate on keeping an eye on R5. The formula isn't that bad and the mechanisms to drive the cost are set. It's about observing and enforcing them.

Rally Power

30th September 2015, 01:25

It should be easier to make the subaru's and Mitsubishi's (N4/R4/VR4's) good enough to fight with the R5's.

R4 was the opportunity to do so, but FIA miss it by putting aside larger restrictor and seq gearbox. Somehow it was understandable, because then R4 would match S2000 (and the coming R5) for a fraction of the cost, making harder for manus to get involved in R5 and turning national rally fields into a sort of endless Impreza's trophy...

Something similar can happen if FIA decides to introduce another 4wd rally formula, putting R5 growing at risk. FIA must also consider the continuous cutoff of second level categories (S2000, R4 and, in a near future, RRC), because the sport needs regs stability and R5 cost handicap can be diminish with proper pressure over manus.

PLuto

30th September 2015, 11:08

The idea of FIA is to make a rule, which allow to make a "kit", which you should be able to use in different cars...

Rally Power

3rd October 2015, 20:30

AP4 regs, the Australia/New Zealand alternative to R5:
www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/default/files/motorsport/technical-regulations/Group%20AP4%20-%20Technical%20Regulations%20for%20National%20Rall y%20Car.pdf

More freedom over Maxi Rally regs (wider range of components) but easier to made and potentially cheaper than R5 (in house made cars over external bodyshell/roll-cage package, supplied by approved builders).

Some videos at the NZ Rally thread.

vino_93

5th October 2015, 14:45

Mark Pedder did Rally Australia (in WRC field) with a 208 from this regulation.

Rally Power

6th October 2015, 18:58

Yep. Because AP4 regs are based in Argentina's Maxi Rally, MR cars are allowed. Pedder's 208 came from Baratec and uses the 1.6T new engine.

vino_93

6th October 2015, 20:36

Every country outside of Europe can choose the category they want to see in their local WRC event.

Rally Power

6th October 2015, 20:45

Every country outside of Europe can choose the category they want to see in their local WRC event.

That should be another reason to let private tuners homologate R5 cars. They would became cheaper and easier to get.

sollitt

6th October 2015, 21:03

Yep. Because AP4 regs are based in Argentina's Maxi Rally .... Wrong. AP4 was a clean sheet exercise which has produced a formula with more similarities to WRC2 than MR. There is a looseness which allows MR cars.

Mirek

6th October 2015, 21:20

That should be another reason to let private tuners homologate R5 cars. They would became cheaper and easier to get.

This concept has been sadly proven non-functional with R-GT.

Rally Power

6th October 2015, 21:55

Wrong. AP4 was a clean sheet exercise which has produced a formula with more similarities to WRC2 than MR. There is a looseness which allows MR cars.

AP4 hardly could be described as a clean sheet exercise as it's clearly based in MaxiRally and R5 regs.

From AP4 reg:
"The philosophy of AP4 is to establish a set of technical articles that allow rally teams to build locally, or buy cars of parallel design from overseas, that will be of a
similar specification and performance to each other and to that of the FIA R5 / S2000 Category cars, but at significantly lower cost. (...) Alternatively a ‘Maxi Rally’ car (being a car in compliance with the 2013 Specific Regulations for “Maxi Rally” Vehicles – Rallies), may be purchased directly from the
constructor in Argentina or through their approved agent as detailed in PART THREE of these regulations. A ‘Maxi Rally’ car may also be purchased in ‘kit form’ and
assembled in compliance with the stated regulations. Such cars (provided they maintain compliance with these regulations) will be accepted as meeting the eligibility
criteria of Group AP4."

All the regs:
AP4: http://www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/default/files/motorsport/technical-regulations/Group%20AP4%20-%20Technical%20Regulations%20for%20National%20Rall y%20Car.pdf
Maxi Rally: http://www.cdaaca.org.ar/be//adjuntos/Regla_RALLY%20ARGENTINO%20_266201417921.pdf
R5: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/A5499B0FD08BBF23C1257A8B0050EBEC/$FILE/GROUP5.pdf

Rally Power

6th October 2015, 22:00

This concept has been sadly proven non-functional with R-GT.

You're right! That's why everybody should pressure FIA to ease up homologation processes. In R5, RGT and even on R1/R2/R3.

vino_93

7th October 2015, 00:10

This concept has been sadly proven non-functional with R-GT.

R-GT is different I think.
Their could be a market for R2 cars for example. You can see some local production in South Africa / Namibia or India.

Some countries in Asia are doing great with their regulation. For example in China, you have various manufacturers homologating cars in group S. In Argentina, Australia, NZ you have some new regulations, because FIA cars are difficult to get, or cost too much.
If you allow free R2 f.e. (I mean not only the manufacturers approved one), maybe some countries would choose to use this.

You could have new cars on forgotten markets (look the situation in Asia now, and what it was 20 years ago), or even some private team in Europe doing it.

Arnold Triyudho Wardono

7th October 2015, 01:19

Yep. Because AP4 regs are based in Argentina's Maxi Rally, MR cars are allowed. Pedder's 208 came from Baratec and uses the 1.6T new engine.
So, AP4 is basically a crossover between MR & R5..? (with six speed gearbox)
And what about Activ Rallysport i20 Proto from Poland, is it also the AP4.?

R-GT is different I think.
Their could be a market for R2 cars for example. You can see some local production in South Africa / Namibia or India.

Some countries in Asia are doing great with their regulation. For example in China, you have various manufacturers homologating cars in group S. In Argentina, Australia, NZ you have some new regulations, because FIA cars are difficult to get, or cost too much.
If you allow free R2 f.e. (I mean not only the manufacturers approved one), maybe some countries would choose to use this.

You could have new cars on forgotten markets (look the situation in Asia now, and what it was 20 years ago), or even some private team in Europe doing it.
BTW, where I can find the example of Chinese Group S rally cars beside Prodrive Golf..?

sollitt

7th October 2015, 06:23

AP4 hardly could be described as a clean sheet exercise as it's clearly based in MaxiRally and R5 regs.

I can assure you that it was absolutely a 'clean sheet' exercise but as with any well considered change of direction the brief was wide ranging. The AP4 regs were the work of a team in New Zealand. At the time there were 2 Maxi Cars under construction in NZ and representatives of these teams were involved in initial meetings and it would be fair to say they had some influence in ensuring those cars were included. But that's quite different from the rules being "based on Maxi rules" (as per your earlier statement). They were not.
Neither were they "based on R5 regulations" however logic determined that there would be a high level of similarity.

sollitt

7th October 2015, 06:26

So, AP4 is basically a crossover between MR & R5..? Once again, not correct.
And what about Activ Rallysport i20 Proto from Poland, is it also the AP4.? No, Proto cars from Poland are not AP4 compliant.

br21

7th October 2015, 09:37

BTW, where I can find the example of Chinese Group S rally cars beside Prodrive Golf..?

For sure there is Fabia in S2000 body and WRC engine driving in Chinese champs

vino_93

8th October 2015, 14:22

BTW, where I can find the example of Chinese Group S rally cars beside Prodrive Golf..?

S6 (4WD)
Subaru Impreza WRX Sti (maybe it's the same than the old Subaru USA ? Not sure)
Skoda Fabia III
Skoda Fabia II + Skoda Fabia S2000 with 1.6T engine
BAIC-Saab D50
BAIC E150
Soueast V6
Soueast Mitsubishi Lancer EX
Soueast Lancer Evo X

S5 :
FAW Skoda Octavia
FAW Volkswagen Golf

S4 :
Chery A3
Dongfeng Citroën C2
Dongfeng DS3
Dongfeng Honda Civic
FAW Volkswagen Golf
GAC Toyota Yaris

S3 :
Baojun 630
Changan Ford Focus
Changan Suzuki SX4
Dongfeng Citroën C4
Dongfeng Ming Si
FAW VW Golf

S2 :
Buick HRV
BYD F3
Changan Ford Fiesta
Dongfeng Citroën C2
Dongfeng Peugeot 206
Dongfeng Yueda Kia Cerato
Fengshen Aeolus
GAC TOyota Yaris
Geely GX2
Guangqi Honda Fit
JAC Heyue A30
Lifan X50
Soueast Lioncel
Youngman Lotus L3

S1 :
Changan Suzuki Swift
Lifan 320
Lifan 330
Lifan LF132
Shanghai VW Polo

and so on ...

Sulland

8th October 2015, 23:00

…and creating a new R4 kit category aimed at providing a budget-friendly four-wheel-drive category whose costs and performance lie between R3 and R5 cars.

What could this mean?
A kit car, with spaceframe, or a kit to build in to an existing car, as the Poles do?

pricewise we are still talking a place btw 100-250 000 €, hopefully closer to the first number. Still a lot of money for a privateer!

Zeakiwi

11th October 2015, 04:40

Subaru have another hatchback in the future. Might make a better rally/ RX base than the sedan 4 door.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2017-subaru-impreza-spy-photos-news

Jack4688`

11th October 2015, 10:46

Here's the official preview image from Subaru for the 2015 Tokyo motor show

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-tokyo-motor-show/next-generation-subaru-impreza-concept-confirmed-tokyo-motor
http://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/imprezaconcept-01.jpg?itok=Fbr7x0Cw
http://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/imprezaconcept-02.jpg?itok=Sl6qnTHI

Of course we all know Subaru production cars never live up to their concept counterparts

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bU1xsIRgGuU/UobXvB5DvDI/AAAAAAAPBb0/OV9wEaopjE8/s1600/Subaru-WRX0.jpg

Arnold Triyudho Wardono

13th October 2015, 00:32

S6 (4WD)
Subaru Impreza WRX Sti (maybe it's the same than the old Subaru USA ? Not sure)
Skoda Fabia III
Skoda Fabia II + Skoda Fabia S2000 with 1.6T engine
BAIC-Saab D50
BAIC E150
Soueast V6
Soueast Mitsubishi Lancer EX
Soueast Lancer Evo X

According from Patrik Sandell (he was driving for Fan Fan at Hokkaido), the Soueast Lancer EX has the paddle shift.

Zeakiwi

26th October 2015, 05:26

This could be a way of making a basic production road more competitive against the big dollar cars.
Hopper's 600 hp Subaru 2.3 litre engine - carbon fibre roof, lightweight bonnet, doors boot lid. Modena sequential transmission.
https://youtu.be/tdvqJ6QQoFI

Munkvy

26th October 2015, 07:48

Doesn't help when you hit power poles thought...

Zeakiwi

27th October 2015, 05:29

A Power Pole and water main

OldF

13th November 2015, 20:36

The new R4 kit only outside Europe? What’s the point to create a R4 kit to be used only outside Europe when Australia and New Zeeland have AP4 regulations and South America has the Maxi Rally car? OK, they are not FIA homologated but as far as I understand from the regional sporting regulations (http://www.fia.com/regulations/regulation/fia-regional-rally-championships-117?search_api_views_fulltext=&page=1 page 55 APRC and page 66 CODASUR) they are eligible to score points in the regional championships?

http://www.fia.com/invitation-tender

FIA Regional and National Rally Championships (outside Europe) - Call for expressions of interest (supply of "R4-Kits") (http://www.fia.com/file/36346/download?token=QX2gJEq4)

From the document.

“All candidates shall pay a non‐refundable fee of €15,000 (fifteen thousand euros) by 30 November
2015 at the latest for their proposal to be taken into consideration within the framework of the
selection process.”

The dream opportunity for every village blacksmith.

Some figures.

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS – CHARACTERISTICS OF THE VEHICLE (page 35)
The vehicle will weigh around 1200 kg and be equipped with a 1.6 turbo engine producing less than 280 hp. (see Technical and Homologation Regulations for VR4‐KIT cars).

The maximum internal diameter of the restrictor is 33mm (proposal TBC) (page 41 in the pdf document)

The maximum boost pressure is 2.5 bar*.
The homologated FIA boost control system (pop-off valve, see FIA Technical list n°43) must
be fitted on the FIA pipe as described on the homologation form. (page 41)

ii. The total cost of the "R4‐Kit" shall not exceed €105,000 (one hundred and five thousand
euros). This amount shall be exclusive of all taxes and charges and shall not be increased for
any reason during the first four years of homologation. (page 8 & 73)

Rally Power

15th November 2015, 02:53

ii. The total cost of the "R4‐Kit" shall not exceed €105,000 (one hundred and five thousand
euros). This amount shall be exclusive of all taxes and charges and shall not be increased for
any reason during the first four years of homologation. (page 8 & 73)

Knowing FIA's cost control efficacy, those kits will probably be 30% to 40% more expensive...

I also can't understand the implementation of this R4 kits...is it a way to control homologations at AP and Codasur countries?

Either way, it would be more useful, for european and overseas costumers, to see FIA making pressure over manus to reduce R5 prices.

21st November 2015, 13:36

What is the plan for Europe, if not part of this one?

The new R4 kit only outside Europe? What’s the point to create a R4 kit to be used only outside Europe when Australia and New Zeeland have AP4 regulations and South America has the Maxi Rally car? OK, they are not FIA homologated but as far as I understand from the regional sporting regulations (http://www.fia.com/regulations/regulation/fia-regional-rally-championships-117?search_api_views_fulltext=&page=1 page 55 APRC and page 66 CODASUR) they are eligible to score points in the regional championships?

http://www.fia.com/invitation-tender

FIA Regional and National Rally Championships (outside Europe) - Call for expressions of interest (supply of "R4-Kits") (http://www.fia.com/file/36346/download?token=QX2gJEq4)

From the document.

“All candidates shall pay a non‐refundable fee of €15,000 (fifteen thousand euros) by 30 November
2015 at the latest for their proposal to be taken into consideration within the framework of the
selection process.”

The dream opportunity for every village blacksmith.

Some figures.

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS – CHARACTERISTICS OF THE VEHICLE (page 35)
The vehicle will weigh around 1200 kg and be equipped with a 1.6 turbo engine producing less than 280 hp. (see Technical and Homologation Regulations for VR4‐KIT cars).

The maximum internal diameter of the restrictor is 33mm (proposal TBC) (page 41 in the pdf document)

The maximum boost pressure is 2.5 bar*.
The homologated FIA boost control system (pop-off valve, see FIA Technical list n°43) must
be fitted on the FIA pipe as described on the homologation form. (page 41)

ii. The total cost of the "R4‐Kit" shall not exceed €105,000 (one hundred and five thousand
euros). This amount shall be exclusive of all taxes and charges and shall not be increased for
any reason during the first four years of homologation. (page 8 & 73)

Rally Power

1st December 2015, 20:15

Sounds a bit weird, but it's been rumored that Maxi Rally will be available in 2016 Spanish champ...
Doubt they'll match R5 and RGT in the spanish tarmac, but maybe RFEA will use some balancing rules.

Co-driven

2nd December 2015, 10:54

It looks like Baratec is shipping two Peugeot 208 MR with 1.6T enginfe for next year. Both will be run by RMC, one will run in tarmac Championship and the other will be driven by Nicolas Fuchs in the gravel Championship.

OldF

11th December 2015, 22:59

FIA has recently created new regulations for series outside Europe but now it seems that the “movement” is opposite, first cars developed outside Europe are imported to a European regional championship :D. When will we see the first AP4 kit in Europe? Btw, is it the same company developing the 1.6T engine as the 2400 NA Honda engine? http://www.oresteberta.com/producto-22.php?lang=es

skarderud

12th December 2015, 09:04

Is it possible to build cars after this R4 regulations too compete in europe? Is it like the swedish R5 that you have to get National homologation by every countrys federation?

Rally Power

19th December 2015, 05:01

It seems Spanish rally championships will really use Maxi Rally cars!!!

They'll be called N5, and beside imported cars from Argentina, spanish tuners will also build new models under MR/N5 rules. Their aim it's to give local competitors the chance of getting competitive 4wd cars, less expensive than R5's.

Besides the already known RMC MR 208's imported from Argentina, AR Vidal Racing has undertaken the construction of a brand new N5 Swift for spanish Suzuki importer.

http://www.suzukimotorsport.es/2015/12/18/el-equipo-suzuki-repsol-apuesta-por-la-nueva-categoria-n5/

N5 rules are expected to be very close to MR rules, but could have minor changes in order to get the cars more competitive in tarmac. It's not clear if current R5 rules will be changed to ease a match with N5.

Mirek

20th December 2015, 18:45

Some of our South-American members wrote that the price of Maxi Rally cars was near 200 thousand Euro and that the main advantage was that they were not subject of import-duty in Argentina. What's the benefit of using such non-FIA car imported from the opposite side of the globe?

Co-driven

20th December 2015, 22:26

On the other thread, I said I thought it was around 200k dollars, not euros.

And one reason I think is the running costs. What I know, for example from the R5 cars in Paraguay is that there is a need of bringing from Europe an engineer for each race. Besides that, whenever there is there need to rebuild engine and gearbox, those parts need to be shipped to Europe. On the other hand, I think that those Maxi Rally cars don't need that kind of thing, the team itself can do the maintenance.

Mirek

20th December 2015, 22:33

Co-driven

20th December 2015, 22:37

Yes, I agree with you. Running those cars in South America can be a benefit, especially considering that they are allowed in Rally Argentina.

But I also can't see any special reason for them to be used on Europe. Maybe their cost is below the 150k-200k dollars I said or the running cost is, for some reason, a lot lower than that of a R5 car.

Rally Power

22nd December 2015, 00:31

Sorry for the mistake I did with the currency. Still I don't se the benefits. I believe it's cheaper to run Maxi-rally car than R5 (although I'm pretty sure it's cheaper to run R5 in Europe where there are hundreds of them than in Argentina) but there is really big disadvantage that those cars are not allowed in FIA events in Europe. Does it worth to sacrifice the FIA "compatibility" for "somewhat cheaper car"? Maybe somebody can clearly say yes and give us clear reasoning.

First of all: with this new N5 spanish rules, spanish tuners will have the opportunity to build 4wd rally cars locally. As N5 rules are pretty much the same as MR, every team or driver can import MR's cars from Argentina but they'll also can buy them from spanish tuners (AR Vidal with the Swift is the first, but there are others capable rally tuners in spain and it's not hard to believe that in a short term several other cars will appear).

Co-driven's 150k to 200k dollars price estimation for MR cars seems a bit large, but even considering a 200k price, MR cars would cost around 180.000€. That's 50.000€ less than a Fabia R5 (gravel spec/no taxes). It's a lot, and probably many european N4 drivers would be tented to buy N5/MR's, like most south american drivers were. Also, like in MR rules, N5 cars are ment to be controlled spec cars. They use the same engine, transmission, brakes, suspension, etc. That really helps to cut down running costs.

There's another big advantage: with FIA restricted homologation system, many importers can't have rally programs in their countries because very few brands have FIA homologated cars (compared to Gr.N/A days, the number of Gr.R homologations it's ridiculous). With a liberal system like N5/MR, there's space for larger brands involvement, like already seen in South America. Spreading tuners choice (from nowadays half a dozen manus tuners) will also help private teams and drivers to have a larger and cheaper choice of 4wd rally cars.

On N5 lack of FIA international events status: it may be only a question of time...(and for the large majority of european MR/N5 potencial costumers that's not a real issue, as long local ASN's accepts them in their national champs).

PS: I'm also a fan of R5 cars (just critic on their overprice), but FIA homologation system it's too limited and doesn't helped rallying. MR/N5 and others solutions must be understood as complementary and benefic for the sport.

br21

22nd December 2015, 09:06

In my opinion lack of international homologation for those N5/MR cars is a big issue and a big problem for many drivers. 50k euros difference is not that huge, if someone can afford to buy and run car for 180k euros, highly possible he can afford those 50k more. Difference in running costs of those cars cannot be that big, maybe only in engine, but simply I'm not familiar with MR cars engines, so I don't know. But transmissions for sure similar, also in R5 case no need to have manufacturer engineer on events like someone mentioned before.
Also those MR cars might be good and already developed to some level on gravel, but tarmac is completely different story and many countries in Europe have events mainly on tarmac.

Sulland

22nd December 2015, 12:16

https://translate.google.no/translate?hl=no&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.suzukimotorsport.es%2F2015%2F12 %2F18%2Fel-equipo-suzuki-repsol-apuesta-por-la-nueva-categoria-n5%2F

N5 looks like a good option to me.
Both for tuning firms and drivers in national series.

And if nations could cooperate on rules, a healty 2.nd hand market could evolve!

Sulland

22nd December 2015, 12:18

Mirek

22nd December 2015, 12:37

Second hand N4 is unable to challenge the R5. If You compare with R5 You must compare option with similar performance. Several years a go a used Punto S2000 cost 1/4 of new Fabia S2000 and actually less than a good N4 car. Still nobody was buying the Puntos but everybody was going to spend more for a competitive package. It doesn't matter that much if You spend 230 or 180 thousand Euro. Both is a lot of money and You think twice before You throw them out of the window. It's a sport tool and as such the primary thing is performance. If You buy the car just for fun, ok, but how many of rally drivers have no ambitions?

Maybe the Maxi rally cars can be competitive against R5 (although I doubt that). Still why not to buy second-hand Fiesta R5 for the same price instead? Maybe it's more expensive to run but You can take part in international events with it, You have a proper comparison with international drivers, You have a kind of performance and service guarantee and one day You can sell it to anywhere.

I understand the reasoning with giving an option to take part to the importer teams which have no homologated cars of their make. I'm not sure such motivation will work though. Maybe it's different in Spain but here the dealers are not particularly interested in rallying if they are not driven in it by the manufacturer itself.

Anyway I agree that the current homologation system is far from being ideal. I would also welcome more freedom to build own cars but it shall be taken as a systematic approach by FIA. Playing on own national sandpit has never helped the sport in global.

Sulland

22nd December 2015, 13:10

I agree with you on what you are saying Mirek, but I think we are writing past eachother.
I am now talking of a guy that are doing this either for fun, or as his first 4wd car, to be used in a national series, not in ERC, WRC.
Many drivers used, and are using N4 cars for this due to cost. But those cars are getting old, and national series need a modern, cheap option.
The point is not to match the speed of a top notch R5, since they will be in different classes.

Second hand N4 is unable to challenge the R5. If You compare with R5 You must compare option with similar performance. Several years a go a used Punto S2000 cost 1/4 of new Fabia S2000 and actually less than a good N4 car. Still nobody was buying the Puntos but everybody was going to spend more for a competitive package. It doesn't matter that much if You spend 230 or 180 thousand Euro. Both is a lot of money and You think twice before You throw them out of the window. It's a sport tool and as such the primary thing is performance. If You buy the car just for fun, ok, but how many of rally drivers have no ambitions?

Maybe the Maxi rally cars can be competitive against R5 (although I doubt that). Still why not to buy second-hand Fiesta R5 for the same price instead? Maybe it's more expensive to run but You can take part in international events with it, You have a proper comparison with international drivers, You have a kind of performance and service guarantee and one day You can sell it to anywhere.

I understand the reasoning with giving an option to take part to the importer teams which have no homologated cars of their make. I'm not sure such motivation will work though. Maybe it's different in Spain but here the dealers are not particularly interested in rallying if they are not driven in it by the manufacturer itself.

Anyway I agree that the current homologation system is far from being ideal. I would also welcome more freedom to build own cars but it shall be taken as a systematic approach by FIA. Playing on own national sandpit has never helped the sport in global.

Mirek

22nd December 2015, 13:32

I understand but is the Maxi rally the formula for replacing N4 if the price is close to R5? I don't think so (unless of course the cars are a lot cheaper than what we talk about).

dimviii

22nd December 2015, 15:05

if the n5 cant much the r5,and they drive them just for fun,why to dont drive n4 with 1/4 of their purchase cost,and the rest money to compete for 3-4 years?
I dont think that n5 as they are now they have feature at Europe.
Another point is which would be the price of this car as 2nd hand.Maybe an r5 is not so expensive..

OldF

22nd December 2015, 15:19

Pros and cons with different solutions. What I would like is to have the possibility to build a car locally which has an international homologation with the price and running cost of a N4 car.

With lower price than R5 cars the performance should also be lower but there can always be two different championship for R5 and N4 level cars.

I once posted an example of a season (2007) cost in FCR and here it’s again. If you compare the total season cost to the difference of the price of cars (if it’s 50 000 €) it’s less than for one season. Note that rallies in FRC are not long and most of them are only during one day.

Rallying costs:
Entry fees 3200 € (á 400 €. 1 two day rally, 6 one day rally)
Accommodations 2340 € (á 90 € * 26)
Travelling 560 € (á 80 € * 7)
Food (á 120 € * 7)
Racing fuel / litre 6,20 € * 1000 l = 6200 €
Diesel (for transporting of the car etc.) á 100 € * 7 = 700 €
Tyres, winter 345 € * 30 = 10350 €
Tyres, summer 245 € * 30 = 7350 €
Insurance 2500 € * 7 = 17500 €
Accessories, spare parts etc. 2500 €
Total = 51540 € (64,7 %)

Testing costs:
Racing fuel 6,20 € * 400 = 2480 €
Tyres 1500 € (Usually with used tyres)
Set up work, lunch, payment for test road, permission fee etc.
Total = 7480 € (9,4 %)

General expenses:
Traffic + transporting insurance 750 €
Tools and small accessories 2500 €
Clothes 500 €
Ads + marketing materials 1500 €
Total = 6750 € (8,5 %)

Maintenance costs:
Rally-specific costs 350 € * 7 = 2450 € (wear parts, cost doesn’t include own work)
Seasonal maintenance 1: 3500 € (Maintenance of transmission, dampers and turbo. Cost doesn’t include own work)
Seasonal maintenance 2: 6500 € (Maintenance of engine, transmission, dampers and turbo. Cost doesn’t include own work)
Repair of equipments etc. 1500 € (Cost doesn’t include own work)
Total = 13950 € (17,5 %)

Total season costs = 79720 €

Rally Power

23rd December 2015, 00:05

The price difference is probably over 50.000€. Taking the 175k mid value estimation for a MR puts their price at 160.000€ (very similar to brand new top spec N4), and enlarges the difference to 70.000€. 50 is really worst case scenario.

As Sulland said, these rules shoud be articulated between countries. I believe that as more european ASN's follows the spanish example, FIA will be obligue to allow N5/MR in Europe and unify their rules.

Sulland

23rd December 2015, 00:51

Lets see on N5 prices, speed and durability in Spain for a year and see if this is the way forward for the new N4 (5)!

br21

23rd December 2015, 10:13

vino_93

26th December 2015, 17:10

Sulland

26th December 2015, 22:03

First lets see if anyone here have exact prices of MR cars and parts? It's really interesting...
And I'm 100% sure FIA will never accept MR/N5 cars only because there will be a lot of them in local championships...:-(

So let them stay as national classes! If they can work as a affordable recruiting class into the international arena, they will be perfect!

Zeakiwi

26th December 2015, 22:18

Co-driven

27th December 2015, 20:06

Autohebdo talked a few years ago than FIA was looking forward MR cars. But since, nothing has been done ...

About MR, I'm wondering how much these cars cost.
Because, if you look at other South American countries, you can see these cars aren't popular at all there.
- Paraguay : one MR, but most of the top crews are using R5 / S2000 / N4
- Bolivia : no MR. The rich guys have protos from Poland, and I think some N5 from Vidal (VW).
- Brasil : 2 MR. One running only in Argentina, and another slow. Their XRC project is still running, but only 3 or 4 exists.
- Uruguay : N4 only, no MR
- Chile : is looking to FIA categories only, with manufacturer support in R3. I think R5 will appear soon ... 2017 ?
- Peru : no MR neither, only N4.

As I said earlier, Paraguay is a bit of a particular case because they can import without paying a lot of taxes and there is a lot of money invested in rallying over there.I don't know about specific regulations in Uruguay and don't know if MR are allowed there. Besides, they have some laws regarding importation of cars that allow them to bring in a car for a couple of years and after that they either pay all the taxes or send them back. So they usually run the car for two years and after that send it back out of the country.
In Peru I think they don't have a lot of problems importing cars, I think there is a lack of money to bring R5 or MR cars.
Chile follows FIA rules, but there was a rumor that MR would be running there soon.
Brasil has the problem of taxes and also lack of money for rallying.

Rally Power

27th December 2015, 21:04

About MR, I'm wondering how much these cars cost.
Because, if you look at other South American countries, you can see these cars aren't popular at all there.

Maybe the problem isn't in their cost but at the way local ASN's are making regs reform.

Only in Argentina and Brasil MR were really promoted as the rally top class, but in Brasil's case that option was somehow undermined by XRC tech choices (it came with a heavy 3.6 V6 and are made by the company of the running champ, Mauricio Neves). Bolivia has an open proto class (Dytko protos are dominant but I believe an MR Fiesta was lately imported) and Peru rally scene seems a mixture of rally and cross country events, with no place for modern rally cars. Uruguay is still finding the way to replace N4, while Paraguay introduced FIA regs (R5/S2000) and Chile also uses FIA regs but emphases renovation into R2/R3 cars.

MR success depends on the ability of national turners build them locally. That's the best way to keep them cheap, as the Argentines has managed to prove.

MR Argentina action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB6ODEv6PEk

Neves 207 XRC:
https://youtu.be/phfWeVA7dUk?t=262

br21

27th December 2015, 22:24

AP 4 Mazda shakedown so not at comptetion pace. Mazda turbo engine with sadev sequential transmission (heavy duty rallycross transverse model) and good brakes.
https://www.facebook.com/Holder-Brothers-Racing-358636160829964/

from other vids it looks like it uses same transmission (gbox & diff) like Fiesta R5, also suspension parts looks very, very similar. Good parts, but I can't find room there for saving the costs comparing to R5.

makinen_fan

22nd January 2016, 10:02

Teemu / Rallirinki ‏@HartusvuoriWRC 43m43 minutes ago
FIA rallying director Jarmo Mahonen says in newspaper interview FIA will introduce an all-new 4WD kit car class in March. @ksmlfi

Teemu / Rallirinki ‏@HartusvuoriWRC 42m42 minutes ago
New cars will be 4WD, 300hp, around €120 000, running costs half from R5s. It'll be a kit ready for "any car". They'll run already this year

Jack4688`

22nd January 2016, 15:46

Unless I've missed something earlier in this thread what is the point of this new category? 4WD and 300hp sounds similar to R5. So why, when clearly R5 is not about to be replaced, create something cheaper than R5 but at the same level?

Co-driven

22nd January 2016, 20:28

I think it is what was mentioned in some other thread: the need of a 4wd class in between a 2wd class and R5. Going from a R2 or R3 direclty to a R5 can be a huge step, either from a sporting view or from a financial point of view.

skarderud

23rd January 2016, 13:23

I think this is something really good for National championships, a better car than a N4, you can get a car from anyone that not have a car ready.
Of course it will never be R5 speed, but its close and can do good in the right drivers, and builders, behind the steeringwheel.

Rally Power

4th May 2016, 16:45

Spanish N5’s cars (Maxi Rally) already on the road:

Suzuki Swift prepared by AR Vidal - https://youtu.be/TxQYMInLqKs
Peugeot 208 prepared by RMC - https://www.facebook.com/885043508183383/videos/vb.885043508183383/1109605459060519/?type=2&theater

The 208 has done a sprint rally as 0 car and is expected to run in next gravel champ rally. The Swift will be doing more tests before entering tarmac series.

Sulland

6th May 2016, 17:38

What are the tech data for the N5 Suzuki?
- Engine caracteristics
- 4 wd system
- suspension and undertray
- price

Rally Power

10th May 2016, 00:34

N5 rules are based in Maxi Rally regs, keeping MR major features: rally purpose built bodies from wide range of makes/models, using control chassis kits, 4wd transmission with a 6 speed sequential gearbox (based on Subaru parts) and the new 1.6T engine from PSA (CDT block).

But N5 are also allowed to use a Mitsubishi Evo engine as an option (downsized to 1.6l) and the control parts kit is less restricted than MR’s. Authorized local tuners can choose from a wider range of components, as only sub frame chassis, suspension arms and mountings, half-axles, gearbox housing and the turbo came from Baratec kit (PK parts).

After the Porsche restrictor mess, RFEA (local ASN) revised N5’s restrictor size. They’ll use 34mm (instead of the original 32), keeping 2.5 bar and 1230kg. The list of authorized Spanish tuners wasn’t yet published. For now, RMC and ARVidal are the only ones and N5 price still’s a secret (has been rumored to be around €150.000).

N5 regs link: https://www.rfeda.es/documents/20185/370342/PCCCTCE-ANE+8-N5-REG+TEC+y+HOM-2016-JS+corregido.pdf/1828ee66-65db-4755-a00b-73fb1e04a99c

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChehUexWwAAPiVP.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CbbMlGsWAAADIOl.jpg

Munkvy

10th May 2016, 01:51

Sounds somewhat similar to the AP4 regulations. Maybe the FIA will eventually take notice of these things and it could become recognised worldwide... Mind you I am sure there would be an FIA approval tax which would make them as expensive as R5 then!

GravelBen

10th May 2016, 02:48

Mind you I am sure there would be an FIA approval tax which would make them as expensive as R5 then!

And kit parts only allowed to be bought from FIA stakeholders like VW and PSA? :\\

TheFlyingTuga

10th May 2016, 06:07

(...)N5 price still’s a secret (has been rumored to be around €150.000). (...)

So basically the cost of them are more or less the same of the N4+ that races in Spain. Mind that a used R5 will cost the same, and you can use it everywhere, and in international events, etc etc. RFEDA push this regs to atract some new manufacters that don't have R5, but this it's not their salvation. Probably you'll see a Mirage N5 along the way as well, but I don't think that makes like Seat f.e. will be in the championship anytime soon...

Rally Power

11th May 2016, 21:50

And kit parts only allowed to be bought from FIA stakeholders like VW and PSA? :\\

The new Kit category only makes sense if local private tuners get involved. For overpriced rally cars built by manus there's already R5 and WRC.

GravelBen

12th May 2016, 08:14

The new Kit category only makes sense if local private tuners get involved. For overpriced rally cars built by manus there's already R5 and WRC.

Yes, that was my point. Maybe my sarcasm about FIA was a bit too subtle?

Rally Power

15th May 2016, 00:46

Well done! Pons won in RMC’s 208 N5/MR debut on Spanish gravel series, ahead of Villanueva DS3 R5 and Aldecoa Fiesta R5+. The Citroen guy lead until transmission problems slow him down, but Pons was close from the start, sharing stages wins all rally long.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CibmYgsXIAALoyX.jpg
Photo: @RMCMotorsport

Rally Power

29th May 2016, 22:29

Spanish tuners continue N5/MR tarmac development. RMC entered their 208 as 0 car on a local event and ARVidal were testing the Swift in Portugal.

https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13263936_1125973944090337_282204095313866196_n.jpg ?oh=eaa0fb288ad4dceda21e057dd23d61b1&oe=57D7FF8A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xUt81P2-7shttps://yhttps

Arnold Triyudho Wardono

1st June 2016, 02:54

3 or 5 doors..?

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

Co-driven

1st June 2016, 22:31

I think that one in the picture is the Baratec built car, which is based on the 5 door model available in Argentina. In these cars, the rear doors aren't used, there is no way of opening them.

But I've seen some news recently that the Spanish team is building a 3-door model with the same specs.

Rally Power

2nd June 2016, 22:16

Yep. 208 2 door on his way and plans to make also a N5/MR based on a Fiesta body.

https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13240643_1124227554264976_4653374615880957588_n.jp g?oh=5d2309d6c4e7d4d28ed674cc69b3eab8&oe=57DCB79F

Co-driven

9th June 2016, 23:21

This weekend's Rally Catamarca (fourth round of Argentina National Championship and third round of FIA Codasur Championship) will be a good opportunity to compare the new Maxi Rally turbo with the R5.
Gustavo Saba and Diego Dominguez will be there and Luciano Pretoria and Geronimo Padilla (two good Argentine drivers) will be there with the MR turbo.

skarderud

12th June 2016, 12:17

Just to clearify for my self.
The main point with this R4 category is that anyone can build a car "at home" with standard mandatory parts?
Mainly for National championship?

Rally Power

13th June 2016, 01:09

Yes, if you meant “at home” as private local tuners. The international homologation may happen if FIA decides to introduce officially R4 in Europe and in other regions. It seems there’s a will to do it, but for now only some ASN’s are using R4 related rules (under different names: N5; MR; AP4) on their national championships.

Co-driven: any results from Catamarca? What's the restrictor size for MR Turbo?

Co-driven

13th June 2016, 21:14

Co-driven: any results from Catamarca? What's the restrictor size for MR Turbo?

I´d say that results were good, but the MR turbo is still a bit behind the R5 cars. Luciano Preto rolled on the first day, but the overal winner among the Argentine drivers was Geronimo Padilla with a Ford Fiesta MR turbo, from Baratec. He was more than a minute faster than his fellow countryman with the NA MR cars. And he was around a minute behind Gustavo Saba, the winner of the event.

The results are a bit hard to compare, because the MR turbo don´t appear on the Codasur results (I don´t know the reason for that, maybe because they aren´t homologated yet). The MR turbo is competing only as an guest driver, so although Padilla won the event in the National Championship, he didn´t receive trophy for that.

But the results can be found here:
http://www.acryr.com.ar/tiempos/2016/codasur/catamarca/MENU (Codasur)

http://www.rallyargentino.org.ar.php53-7.dfw1-2.websitetestlink.com/tiempos2010/2016/carrera04/ARGFIN_ET2.HTM (Rally Argentino)

Sorry, but I don´t know the exact dimension of the restrictor.

Sulland

15th June 2016, 11:34

skarderud

15th June 2016, 18:23

A sales price of 150 000 euro seems high, if a year old R5 cost around 180 000.
A Dytko cost aprox 50 000, with same engines, but not sure of differences on the rest of the car.

But 150 000 seems steep!
Where is the prices?
Is it a complete car then?
How much does the parts costs, It is some standard parts to use?

The dytko is a example how it should be, a more pricevalued car for National championships.
How fast is it compared to a R5?

Rally Power

16th June 2016, 02:35

According to Spanish ASN (RFEDA) rules, each N5 car is homologated individually and the owner of the car is the owner of the homologation form. A N5 can be built using the mandatory kit (available from certified suppliers) and all the other parts mentioned in the regs (including a rally purpose build body, coming from a certified tuner). Parts are classified as PK (those included in the mandatory kit); PH (homologated parts with free origin); PL (special parts without homologation); PS (original parts from the base model). Alternatively a fully assembled model can be bought from certified tuners but must be also individually homologated. Because this is the first year of this new category, the certified kit suppliers and body tuners list it’s not yet available. Only two tuners (RMC and ARVidal) are for now authorized and the kit comes from Baratec. There are no confirmed prices yet, but the € 150.000 number for a complete car was talked some time ago by people close to one of the tuners.

N5 Overall description: https://www.rfeda.es/documents/20185/370342/PCCCTCE-ANE+8-N5-OBJ+y+CONSTR-2016-JS.pdf/378202fb-220b-477b-9ea7-1b818248e8fc
N5 Technical regulation: https://www.rfeda.es/documents/20185/370342/PCCCTCE-ANE+8-N5-REG+TEC+y+HOM-2016-JS+corregido.pdf/1828ee66-65db-4755-a00b-73fb1e04a99c

Mirek

16th June 2016, 08:45

A Dytko cost aprox 50 000, with same engines, but not sure of differences on the rest of the car.

That sounds completely unreal. 50 thousand is less than R2...

AdvEvo

30th October 2016, 11:50

When do we see the first fia homologated cars with the new approved r4 kit?

Who is making them?

Andre Oliveira

27th January 2017, 13:23

http://www.oreca.com/blog/2017/01/27/the-fia-has-chosen-oreca-group-as-supplier-of-r4-kits/

dupanton

27th January 2017, 14:49

Curious to see the price of these kits...

Rally Power

28th January 2017, 18:37

http://www.oreca.com/blog/2017/01/27/the-fia-has-chosen-oreca-group-as-supplier-of-r4-kits/

Only Oreca run for FIA’s R4 category? Why not allow private tuners to homologate kits on their home countries, through their FIA recognized ASN? That way we could have a faster (and probably cheaper) globalization of R4.

In Spain local R4 version (N5) will get new cars in ’17. Besides the Swift built by ARVidal and the 208 Barratec based car from RMC, a new Mirage has been built by RMC, using a Dytko chassis. (Btw, after the 911’s, N+’s will also be restricted on Spain series. Open route for R5 domination).

AdvEvo

29th January 2017, 00:07

Good news.

Let s wait and see how it s priced.

Sulland

29th January 2017, 23:02

There is written in the statement that there are some freedom, but not what and within what field?

will Oreca build theire own engine from scratch or will take a stock engine and modify that one?

Anyoen here with contacts within Oreca that could check some more details, and prices?

AdvEvo

30th January 2017, 12:18

Fia says in the pdf that max costs of the kit is 105.000 euro ex taxes.

I quess this without car.

You need a car, wide body kit, roll cage, spot welding, safety equipment etc.

This will cost approx 150.000 euro

Sulland

30th January 2017, 14:16

What pdf?

AdvEvo

30th January 2017, 15:36

What pdf?

https://www.fia.com/file/36346/download?token=QX2gJEq4

Sulland

30th January 2017, 17:17

Ahh, so FIA let the full car price go from 105 K € to aprox 150 K. Now the Oreca R4 kit alone is 105.
Too bad, 105 is imo still too high for many privateers.

7 year homologation periode is good, and will make for a healthy 2nd hand market!

I could not find a date on the doc, is this the latest one?

dupanton

30th January 2017, 18:13

This will cost approx 150.000 euro

To much, as you can find this: http://rallycarsforsale.net/ads/peugeot-208-t16-r5-3/

AdvEvo

30th January 2017, 23:56

Agreed!

105k ex taxes ready car i would be interested.

drive

31st January 2017, 12:32

Only Oreca run for FIA’s R4 category? Why not allow private tuners to homologate kits on their home countries, through their FIA recognized ASN? That way we could have a faster (and probably cheaper) globalization of R4.

In Spain local R4 version (N5) will get new cars in ’17. Besides the Swift built by ARVidal and the 208 Barratec based car from RMC, a new Mirage has been built by RMC, using a Dytko chassis. (Btw, after the 911’s, N+’s will also be restricted on Spain series. Open route for R5 domination).

Following a tender, the FIA is pleased to announce that ORECA has been registered as a supplier of R4-Kits for cars that can compete in FIA regional and national rally championship events. http://www.fia.com/news/r4-kits-regional-and-national-rally-cars

Sulland

1st February 2017, 21:05

But the FIA docs said nothing about that private teams/tuners could not adapt the chassis to take onboard the R4 kit, did it?

I guess that can be done cheaper than 45 000€ ?

Ricardo Filipe Matos

1st February 2017, 22:29

I want see the first 308 R4-Kit!

PLuto

1st February 2017, 22:41

Following a tender, the FIA is pleased to announce that ORECA has been registered as a supplier of R4-Kits for cars that can compete in FIA regional and national rally championship events. http://www.fia.com/news/r4-kits-regional-and-national-rally-cars

Oreca was from beginning only one supplier, directly asked by FIA...

AdvEvo

2nd February 2017, 00:00

Its 108.000 euro ex tax for the kit.

Above that

You need do buy an orginal street car wealding a cage into it and make new mounting poiints for subframe and the car needs a tunnel to fit shaft to rear into it.

Then seats steering wheel etc.

Then build everything together.

2nd February 2017, 05:40

So by the time you have finished it will cost nearly the same as an R5.

AdvEvo

2nd February 2017, 14:45

Sulland

13th February 2017, 00:05

When do you think we will see some Oreca R4 mule car testing?

tolx

13th February 2017, 06:48

proberly the price of a second hand R5 yes.

But then how does the R4 car get homologated.

No way you can get a licence plate on a car which has standard fwd and turned into a 4wd car. How is that gonna be solved.

Skoda Ford etc rather sell you an R5 then homologate you're home build R4 car.

Isn't this the other way around?
You buy a car and install homologated kit to it, so make it legal. That should be the sole purpose of it, to add way around official manufacturer homologation, like it is with R5.

Zeakiwi

13th February 2017, 06:49

Parts kits available from the beginning of 2017 summer (June '17)
http://www.oreca.com/blog/2017/01/27/the-fia-has-chosen-oreca-group-as-supplier-of-r4-kits/

I would not be surprised if there is no car built to test the parts. Engines - dyno, transmissions -they would just use an off the shelf proven sadev etc?, shock absorbers - use proven basic shock absorbers.
How much does it cost to put a brand new R2 Fiesta together now?

AdvEvo

13th February 2017, 13:36

OldF

13th February 2017, 17:10

How much does it cost to put a brand new R2 Fiesta together now?

I copied this from the sales document.
http://www.m-sport.co.uk/images/New_R2_Sales_Document_v6_2.pdf

To supply the conversion kit to R2 specification in gravel or tarmac: £29680 / 0,85 = 34918 €
To strip standard LHD road car & install above mentioned conversion kit: £10000 / 0,85 = 11765 €
To prepare standard bodyshell to R2 specification: £2000 / 0,85 = 2353 €
To paint car interior and underbonnet: £1800 / 0,85 = 2118€
To supply LHD 1.0ltr Ford Fiesta standard road car: £11500 / 0,85 = 13529 €

Labor costs: 11765+2353+2118 = 16236 €
R2 total: Donor car + labor cost = 13529 + 16236 = 29765 €
R2 total + R4 kit = 29765 + 108000 = 137765 €

What’s still is missing is modifying the bodyshell for 4WD. How many workhours would this modification require?

For the R2 the whole car can be used unlike with the R4-kit leaving lot of excessive parts but the parts could be sold as spare parts. The kit price for the DS3 R3T is 77500 € and kit with included standard car parts 82900 € which mean 5400 € for the standard parts.

http://boutique.citroenracing.com/cms/web/upload/documentation/630/53c7cff4dee4b.pdf

Difference between the R4 kit and DS R3 MAX kit, 108000 – 77500 = 30500 €. Is it enough for the 4WD parts? In realty the money that could be used is bigger because some of the R3 parts would be removed from the kit and replaced with the 4WD parts.

Sulland

13th February 2017, 17:55

I hope a lot of tuners sees the opportunity with R4.
DYTKO from Poland for sure is, and has it on their facebookpage
https://www.facebook.com/sportdytko/

lets see what they come up with of price when they have the car ready!

They also have their Proto
https://www.facebook.com/ProtoCars/

OldF

13th February 2017, 18:26

If you grap a street fiesta 1.6 fwd with registration plates and build into a R4 and make it 4wd. The car has no official approval for the road anymore. Maybe in other country s it s more easy to get registration.

I know in finland the rally organization gives you plates you can only use during a rally.

The white red register plates are for cars that cannot be used in regular road traffic. For these vehicles the emission based vehicle tax don’t have to be paid. I don’t know if these taxes are used in any other country. For example for a Fiesta 1.0 65 Trend which CO2 emission is 99 g/km the vehicle tax is 2083 €. Price excl. vehicle tax is 12560 €. The selling price is then 12560 + 2083 = 14643 €. The vehicle tax is not to be mixed with VAT.

I don’t if it’s possible to be done in Finland (too much parts replaced) but if it is possible I think it’s done via a modification inspection. I didn’t find English version of these section but as I remember you are Swedish these shouldn’t be a problem for you.:)

Ändringsbesiktning (modification inspection)
https://www.trafi.fi/sv/vagtrafik/besiktning/besiktningstyper/andringsbesiktning

Förflyttningsmärke (transfer plates)
https://www.trafi.fi/sv/vagtrafik/registreringsskyltar/forflyttningsmarke

PLuto

13th February 2017, 18:37

Sulland

14th February 2017, 22:26

Proto cars from Dytko are different than official R4 kits from FIA...

yes, but I think they will make the R4 from a normal shell, but modify.
If not it will not be approved.

But interessting that firms think in R4 circles to make business!

OldF

15th February 2017, 16:47

I hope a lot of tuners sees the opportunity with R4.
DYTKO from Poland for sure is, and has it on their facebookpage
https://www.facebook.com/sportdytko/

I had a look at the https://www.facebook.com/sportdytko/ page and the R4 kit on the page is the Oreca’s R4 kit, not Dytko’s. Enlarging the pic and looking at the right bottom of the pic, “Oreca customer service – FIA R4 kit official supplier”. Of course anyone can make a R4 kit but it won’t get a FIA homologation. It would be like the Mitsubishi Mirage R5, only for national rallies (if the national ASN approves it).

What is even more worrying is it says “The set of dampers, struts and springs are not included in the R4 kit.” If this is true 108000 € for the kit is far too much.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/sportdytko/posts/?ref=page_internal

Translated with Google from Polish.

“Everything points to the fact that since 2018 years the FIA will be homologated and already allowed for all international rallies broadly understood "Proto" as a new category R4! With the difference that the set of mechanical parts will be only one - the developed and approved by the French company Oreca. The putty will enter the 1.6 turbo, electronics Magneti sequential 5-speed gearbox, dedicated differentials, suspension bars, arms and fuel tank. The bodies and body kits are optional .. The only drawback is the price increase, the finished car will cost about 150 thousand € ...”

Sulland

15th February 2017, 18:23

I know the pics on the Dytko fb page is taken from Oreca.

And what I read was that Dytko was looking into making a R4 car, using the Oreca kit as the basis, and that Dytko was making a chassis to bolt the Oreca kit on.

The thing they were sorry about was the price of the Oreca kit, that is extremely expensive.

some times I am wondering about what salaries they have in FIA that feel that 100 000 € for a kit with engine, gearbox, struts and diffs is ok. Not many normal workers in Norway have the chance to buy a car like this, without borrowing from the bank. The sponsor market for rally in Norway is extremely tough. It seems much easier to get sponsors further south in Europe.

R4 was ment as an entryclass to 4wd, to take over from N4, then 150 k € is twice the price it should have been.
As said here it was originally planned to have a complete turn key car cost 100 k, now it is only the kit.

maybe a prototype ala the Dytko one, with a common engine + 4wd system for 40-50 k € had been a better path to take.

PLuto

15th February 2017, 18:53

From beginning I told that Oreca is not the best way. Or completely the way how FIA is going with direct offer to one company. It should be more cheaper than presented version...

Does anybody here price for Maxi kit in South America?

Co-driven

15th February 2017, 22:11

AdvEvo

15th February 2017, 23:33

Fia makes it to expensive.

The best way is to go austria rally masters m1 class.

Make street cars into rally cars.

PLuto

16th February 2017, 20:59

Around 200 thousand dollars, plus the base car.

Also not cheap...

Rally Power

18th February 2017, 10:21

What is even more worrying is it says “The set of dampers, struts and springs are not included in the R4 kit.” If this is true 108000 € for the kit is far too much.
That’s a bad surprise and probably other competition parts aren’t also included on the announced price kit. One gets the idea this Oreca kit will be a sort of BMW or Mercedes endless options list…We’ve also have to wait to know if any private tuner (or team) will really be able to buy the kit and make their R4 car or only FIA/Oreca authorized tuners will be able to build them.

Around 200 thousand dollars, plus the base car.
Don’t take me wrong Co-driven, but is that a reliable number? It seems too much, considering RMC is selling Baratec MR kit based cars (N5 in Spain) for around €160.000.

Co-driven

18th February 2017, 22:03

Don’t take me wrong Co-driven, but is that a reliable number? It seems too much, considering RMC is selling Baratec MR kit based cars (N5 in Spain) for around €160.000.

That's the info I have for the car built by Baratec (not just the kit). I'd say that the price is from 180k-200k, but not far from that.

Tom206wrc

19th February 2017, 15:17

I want see the first 308 R4-Kit!

I've read somewhere the engine ORECA will use for the R4 FIA category is the Peugeot 1.6l THP from the 308 GTI :confused:

Mirek

19th February 2017, 16:07

So an engine well known for many reliability issues both in stock and racing variants. But I can understand that it's the strongest available 1.6T in France so quite an expected choice.

br21

19th February 2017, 16:25

I know the guy who now works in Oreca as R4 technical project manager and he is really good so I hope it can be good kit.

fegh

19th February 2017, 17:36

I know the guy who now works in Oreca as R4 technical project manager and he is really good so I hope it can be good kit.
I know him too, and I confirm he is talented and very motivated for the project

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk

Sulland

20th February 2017, 09:03

So an engine well known for many reliability issues both in stock and racing variants. But I can understand that it's the strongest available 1.6T in France so quite an expected choice.

is there in the tender or contract specified anything about needed reliability and rebuild intervals on the R4?

Sulland

20th February 2017, 12:34

A thought experiment:
Take a R3t car. New or used.
Modify chassis, put in a 4wd system.

What cost could a project like this cost?

Sulland

26th February 2017, 19:06

If 150 000 will be the price of the new R4, why are drivers buy the R4 when you can buy a R5 almost new for 170-180 k €?

fegh

26th February 2017, 19:07

If 150 000 will be the price of the new R4, why are drivers buy the R4 when you can buy a R5 almost new for 170-180 k €?
The running cost will be apparently much lower

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk

Munkvy

26th February 2017, 23:19

And I guess R4 would allow you to turn anything into a car, so if you owned a Kia dealership, or Ssangyong etc, you could build an R4 car with whatever car you want to promote your dealership with... Which you can't do with R5 without manufacturer involvement. Well that's how I read it anyway?

Rally Power

10th March 2017, 20:55

While R4 is still under development, in Spain N5 cars (based in Argentina's MR rules) are on their 2nd season.
Besides ERC in the 208 R5, Suarez will also run spanish gravel series in a 208 N5 built by RMC. It uses Baratec kit and a 3dr body. Suzuki will run their N5 Swift (called R+), built by ARVidal, on the tarmac series. (N5's uses 1.6t engine from PSA with a 34mm restrictor).
https://www.facebook.com/885043508183383/videos/1386156004738795/
https://youtu.be/oLna6ti3WR8

br21

11th March 2017, 07:19

That RMC car is heavily based on Subaru. Similar suspension, similar drivetrain to Impreza.

Mirek

11th March 2017, 13:55

How is that working with EP6 engine? Is it placed longitudinally?

Rally Power

11th March 2017, 16:13

Yep, RMC N5 uses Baratec MR Kit, which has several Impreza transmission and suspension parts.

MR overall layout is the same since its debut. They’ve kept the EP6 in longitudinal position, like the previous 2.4 Honda engine. No major issues so far.

Btw, with only one SSS to go, Suarez is leading the first rally of the season on RMC’s 208 N5, almost 1m in front of Basols DS3 R5. http://www.codea.es/codea/normal/paginas/tiempos.php?pruebaprograma=90002&lang=0 (clasificaciones)

Edit: Suarez won it! 2nd time a N5 car wins a spanish gravel rally, ahead R5 and N+ cars. Congrats!

Rally Power

22nd March 2017, 16:56

Big surprise from spain: Renault importer will enter the tarmac series with a Clio N5 (spanish Maxi Rally), built by RMC. Driver is five time champ Miguel Fuster.

http://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/imagenes/2017/03/Renault-Clio-N5-Miguel-Fuster.jpg

The plan was to run a brand new Clio R4, but delays in R4 homologation alongside the fact that the R4 rules are apparently close to those of N5/MR made Renault begin the project building a N5 spec car. First event will be Ourense Rally, in June.

While on gravel RMC’s 208 N5 already show it can win against R5 cars, on tarmac the Swift N5 from ARVidal is still far from them. Let’s see what this Renault (powered by a Peugeot engine!) will be able to do.
http://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/noticia/miguel-fuster-y-renault-juntos-de-nuevo-en-el-nacional-de-asfalto/

itix

24th March 2017, 19:23

The white red register plates are for cars that cannot be used in regular road traffic. For these vehicles the emission based vehicle tax don’t have to be paid. I don’t know if these taxes are used in any other country. For example for a Fiesta 1.0 65 Trend which CO2 emission is 99 g/km the vehicle tax is 2083 €. Price excl. vehicle tax is 12560 €. The selling price is then 12560 + 2083 = 14643 €. The vehicle tax is not to be mixed with VAT.

I don’t if it’s possible to be done in Finland (too much parts replaced) but if it is possible I think it’s done via a modification inspection. I didn’t find English version of these section but as I remember you are Swedish these shouldn’t be a problem for you.:)

Ändringsbesiktning (modification inspection)
https://www.trafi.fi/sv/vagtrafik/besiktning/besiktningstyper/andringsbesiktning

Förflyttningsmärke (transfer plates)
https://www.trafi.fi/sv/vagtrafik/registreringsskyltar/forflyttningsmarke
I know I'm a bit late to this party but in sweden we have SFRO which approve amateur built cars. I don't know about rally cars but they definitely allow builders to use ready made kits etc.

Registering such a car for road (and rally) use can't be impossible I imagine if you buy the R4 kit and do the work yourself.

I know Swedish rally cars have orange plates though, so I'm guessing that there is a different body for inspecting and approving rally cars.

HaCo

25th March 2017, 06:58

Sulland

25th March 2017, 10:12

When can we expect to see prototypes or testing from Oreca on the R4 kit in a mule?

AdvEvo

5th April 2017, 22:43

R4 kit PDF

http://www.akis.is/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/ORECA_Plaquette_R4_EN.pdf

Sulland

15th June 2017, 23:58

Have Oreca buildt a prototype/testmule and started practical testing on the R4 kit yet?

If it is to available in August it should be testcars for potential customers to try out.

Mirek

16th June 2017, 00:13

For sure they could not developed the kit without testing. That's impossible.

Sulland

16th June 2017, 14:40

For sure they could not developed the kit without testing. That's impossible.

He He!
Stupid questions deserves stupid answers.

Any reports on the testing, one the mule they must have made?

br21

17th June 2017, 04:47

First tests planned soon...

Mirek

17th June 2017, 11:27

That doesn't sound like they are on schedule, aren't they?

Rally Power

25th June 2017, 16:06

The FIA/Oreca R4 deal is a bit strange, to say the least. The kit seems to be based on Argentina’s Maxi Rally (dampers aside, as teams are free to choose them), so there’s no justification for the delays. But the most intriguing thing is to have just one R4 kit supplier. A single supplier can make sense for only one country (like Baratec in Argentina) but even in the Asia Pacific region the AP4 cars (yes, they’re different from R4 but they share the regs spirit) can be made by different tuners. The mandatory Oreca kit in Europe (also on ERC and WRC) can become a limitation for R4 category.

Btw, the R4 Clio from Renault Spain is, for now, a N5 (spanish MR version), built by RMC and expected to start at the next CERA event (Ferrol). The ‘real’ Clio R4 debut date is unknown.

http://staticv2.revistascratch.com//images/noticia/primeras-imagenes-del-renault-clio-n5_full.jpeg
photo: www.revistascratch.com

Andre Oliveira

1st July 2017, 06:55

Oreca R4 kit presentation: https://youtu.be/-DF_u-Fou6c

Rally Power

1st July 2017, 12:10

R4 kit PDF
http://www.akis.is/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/ORECA_Plaquette_R4_EN.pdf

Just took a quick look; apparently the kit costs €108.000 (without taxes) and doesn’t include several components (dampers, cockpit items, exhaust, radiator, chassis panels, electrical system and many other necessary parts) that are sold as “options”. To those the costumer also has to add the donor car cost, the kit installation work hours and other administrative expenses.

It doesn’t seem hard to imagine that the 108K value is a joke and a ready to rally R4 will probably cost close (over?) to 200K. It’s also a mystery how will Oreca manage to satisfy a potential worldwide demand, supplying in time enough kits to costumers.

The R4 is needed and the use of a kit is a smart option, but to have a single supplier seems to be a recipe to disaster.

Sulland

3rd July 2017, 13:39

Just took a quick look; apparently the kit costs €108.000 (without taxes) and doesn’t include several components (dampers, cockpit items, exhaust, radiator, chassis panels, electrical system and many other necessary parts) that are sold as “options”. To those the costumer also has to add the donor car cost, the kit installation work hours and other administrative expenses.

It doesn’t seem hard to imagine that the 108K value is a joke and a ready to rally R4 will probably cost close (over?) to 200K. It’s also a mystery how will Oreca manage to satisfy a potential worldwide demand, supplying in time enough kits to costumers.

The R4 is needed and the use of a kit is a smart option, but to have a single supplier seems to be a recipe to disaster.

Maybe 100 000 € is not a lot of money for FIA employees, but for many others that are club or national level drivers, it is.

How Oreca made FIA buy into that a reasonable price for the kit is 108 000€ is very good work from their side.

The Dytko kit-car, for less than half, is more in line with with what the market will be willing to pay!

AdvEvo

3rd July 2017, 14:23

Yep the price is to close to an R5 car. Maybe running costs are lower but rallycar buyers that can spend 200k in regional rally s you can t find manny.

PLuto

3rd July 2017, 15:06

I have heard rumours that Oreca asked FIA to increase this basic price 108 000 euro...

dimviii

3rd July 2017, 20:55

Oreca‏*@Oreca
#FIAR4Kit : after the Dacia Sandero what do you think about our Lada R4?
More pictures here -> https://goo.gl/xETbcf

Arnold Triyudho Wardono

4th July 2017, 09:37

Oreca‏*@Oreca
#FIAR4Kit : after the Dacia Sandero what do you think about our Lada R4?
More pictures here -> https://goo.gl/xETbcf
Looks too simple..

Where's Sandero..?

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

Sulland

4th July 2017, 15:39

Same car, different badge!

https://www.facebook.com/rallyemag/photos/pcb.10155532008704973/10155532007979973/?type=3&theater

Sulland

4th July 2017, 15:57

Not sure if this blogarticle have been posted here before, but voices same cost concern as many here have;

https://drivetribe.com/p/r4-is-coming-JAnibGNlQfiw-ZVrAqQogg?iid=RN4H1x8NR3CAU4pXWtLu6g

Rally Power

4th July 2017, 17:43

The 3D pics of the Dacia and the Lada made me wonder if Oreca’s real purpose is to serve privateers (notably those that previously used Gr.N cars) or to provide rally cars to brands with little or none connection to the sport.

Let’s face it, exotic brands and even some traditional ones, but currently with no intention to start a rally program, can easily make their own R4 and use it in national or international series, through importers and major dealers, making consumers believe they’re actively engaged in rally.

Probably no one will care if they’re using the same mechanical base, as people will still believe the distinctive bodywork represents brand x or y. That has been the case in Argentina with the Maxi Rally cars and now in Spain with N5 models (based in MR).

If so, eventually what will be the point of keeping R5 category, as any Ford (or any other R5 manu) importer can build a R4 Fiesta that will look exactly the same and cost a bit less than the genuine article?!?

Mirek

4th July 2017, 18:02

If so, eventually what will be the point of keeping R5 category, as any Ford (or any other R5 manu) importer can build a R4 Fiesta that will look exactly the same and cost a bit less than the genuine article?!?

The question shall be what is the point of having R4 when they are nearly as expensive as R5 while the R5 are way faster?

The history proved many times that in motorsport customers don't buy less expensive but slow cars because the sole purpose of motorsport is to compete not to save money.

Can You imagine someone spending 200 thousand Euro to buy an equivalent of gr.N car, i.e. second tier car in national and third tier car in WRC events?

dupanton

4th July 2017, 18:28

For this class to be successful, prices shouldn't go (much) about 100-125k for the complete car.
I like the idea behind it, but the price kills it before it has even started.

Rally Power

4th July 2017, 18:48

The question shall be what is the point of having R4 when they are nearly as expensive as R5 while the R5 are way faster?

The history proved many times that in motorsport customers don't buy less expensive but slow cars because the sole purpose of motorsport is to compete not to save money.

Can You imagine someone spending 200 thousand Euro to buy an equivalent of gr.N car, i.e. second tier car in national and third tier car in WRC events?

I’m only speculating and I agree with you; top privateers will use faster R5 cars (and the less resourced ones will still have to use their old Evo's or Impreza's, as R4 will be inaccessible to them!), but looking at the current situation it’s clear that there's a much larger number of manus that are not involved in rally.

Somehow, R4 can become their entrance door to the sport. Will they use it in a massive way? In that case will they eventually pressure local ASN's to turn R4 into the leading category at national series (and even the FIA in the regional ones) or at least force a sort of BoP with current R5’s?

For sure it's premature to ask all these, but in spain N5's already won gravel rallyes (using a 34mm restrictor) and even the fact of being less competitive than R5's on tarmac didn't stopped Renault Spain to make a N5 Clio (actually, Fuster will start it next weekend).

Mirek

4th July 2017, 18:59

For sure it's premature to ask all these, but in spain N5's already won gravel rallyes (using a 34mm restrictor) and even the fact of being less competitive than R5's on tarmac didn't stopped Renault Spain to make a N5 Clio (actually, Fuster will start it next weekend).

That's not comparable at all, sorry. R5 have 32 mm restrictor and there is no chance that R4 would get same or even bigger one as it would make no sense. The aim of creating R4 was to replace N4 not to add competition to R5. Based on the rumors the contrary is going to happen as it looks like R5 will be made even faster (and more expensive).

By the way from 32 to 34 mm is roughly 10-15% of extra power which is quite huge difference.

Rally Power

4th July 2017, 19:11

The aim of creating R4 was to replace N4 (...)

For sure, but knowing how expensive R4's will be and seeing these 3D images, one can ask if Oreca's aim is still to replace N4 or to propose a new rally category to manus...time will tell.

Mirek

4th July 2017, 19:29

About that I would say this

Don't repair what is not broken.

But who am I. FIA already killed several successful formulas in the past in the name of something new and better.

Sulland

4th July 2017, 22:17

The list of authorized Spanish tuners wasn’t yet published. For now, RMC and ARVidal are the only ones and N5 price still’s a secret (has been rumored to be around €150.000).

What did the N5 price end up at in the end?

Zeakiwi

5th July 2017, 00:27

Is N5 based on the Argentinian Maxi rally car? If so I would expect it to be a similar cost?
The RMC Motorsport website has a contact form with just N (R2, R4 etc) listed as car types.

As well as a construction/ purchase price, a running cost per season for the area/ events a competitor is going to take part should also be factored in a competition budget. (and all the other variable costs - sponsorship, event entry fees, travel/ accommodation costs, contingency fund for engine/ transmission failures) etc.

Rally Power

5th July 2017, 13:47

What did the N5 price end up at in the end?

Hard to say. ARV doesn’t sell their Suzuki’s (they’re the brand official tuner) and the handful made by RMC (including the 208’s, one Fiesta and one DS3) were sold to privateers but the final price remained unknown. Btw, apparently RMC asked local ASN to allow a bigger turbo and a 36mm restrictor, but it was refused.

fegh

5th July 2017, 15:52

https://youtu.be/ZQDeZBUZPrY

I found this video of a test for the clio n5, is it a 1.6 or 2.0 l engine?

Sent from my HTC Desire 10 pro using Tapatalk

Andre Oliveira

5th July 2017, 15:54

1.6 Turbo PSA

Mirek

5th July 2017, 15:55

Yes, 1.6 EP6FDTR from Peugeot 308 GTi.

fegh

5th July 2017, 16:00

Thanks guys, so the same one that will be used for the R4. Would be Interesting to have the price of the N5 and compare.

Sent from my HTC Desire 10 pro using Tapatalk

Mirek

5th July 2017, 16:19

Ah sorry, I thought the question was about R4. My bad. My answer is not about N5.

Rally Power

7th July 2017, 15:24

Maxi Rally, N5 and R4 share the same PSA block, with very similar preparation. N5 regs also allows the use of the Mitsubishi Evo engine, reduced to 1.6L, but no tuner has gone that way.

It’ll be interesting to follow Fuster times; expectably he’ll be slower than top R5 guys between 1 and 1.5s/km, but faster than rival N5 Suzuki’s. Overall Garcia and the i20 guys are the favourites. Live timing: http://www.atodomotor.com/online/2017/ferrol/

Mirek

8th July 2017, 11:23

Maxi Rally, N5 and R4 share the same PSA block, with very similar preparation. N5 regs also allows the use of the Mitsubishi Evo engine, reduced to 1.6L, but no tuner has gone that way.

I guess that the reason is in the allowed modifications by the rules because otherwise I would expect everybody picking the proven Mitsubishi 4B11 base engine over the PSA EP6 which is well known for many issues both in stock and performance variants.

br21

8th July 2017, 12:29

R4 prototype is currently build in Oreca, first gravel test planned in August.

Rally Power

9th July 2017, 10:35

http://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/imagenes/2017/07/Miguel-Fuster-Rallye-Ferrol-CERA-2017-mdmc.jpg Photo:diariomotor.com

Not the brightest debut for the N5 Clio built by RMC at Ferrol (7th overall). Fuster was a bit off the pace (8 months without competing) and the car got rear diff issues during the afternoon. They were always slower than N5 rivals, the Suzuki’s Swift from ARV that managed to get their best CERA result so far (Vinyes 4th and Antxustegui 5th, still over 1,5s/km slower than R5’s). Ares (i20) won the rally and he’s now leading the series ahead of Garcia (Fiesta).

Andre Oliveira

7th August 2017, 14:05

Sarrazin, Suninen and Astier as test drivers: http://www.oreca.fr/blog/2017/08/07/oreca-devoile-ses-pilotes-de-developpement-pour-le-kit-fia-r4/

AnttiL

11th August 2017, 07:07

Can you take any car and drop the R4 kit in? I mean could you do it to an Escort Mk2? Honda Civic Type-R? Lancer Evo VI? Or does it have to be a new model?

OldF

11th August 2017, 09:26

I don’t think so. In the kit presentation and the specific regulations is said the car must be “produced in a quantity of at least 2500 units within 12 consecutive months.” Imo that means that the car must have a valid basic group A homologation.

But there’s no mention that the model must belong to a family of a car that is produced in a quantity of at least 25 000 units within 12 consecutive months. Maybe it’s possible to implement the R4 kit to a more exotic car.

http://cdn.oreca-group.com/wp-content/uploads/ORECA_Plaquette_R4_EN.PDF

A CATEGORY FOR ALL PRODUCTION MODELS
Thanks to the R4, each importer, group of concessions or private team can enter a
model of their choice (produced in more than 2500 units over a period of 12 months)
in competitive racing at a reagional and national FIA championship level.

http://www.fia.com/file/58633/download/19422?token=mPk3dYbt

"The R4 kits may be fitted only on Series Production Cars with 2-wheel drive or 4-wheel drive produced in a quantity of at least 2500 units within 12 consecutive months."