New R4 Car - Think Tank

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Our overseas members wrote here some time a go that due to taxes it's often extremely expensive to bring an R5 car into their countries while building their own R4 using a works kit can give them competitive FIA-eligible car which is much cheaper than the R5. In Europe it's different of course as here we have tons of used R5 available.

Sorry for being Euro-centric guys !

And I was also thinking the same about the amount of used R5's that will also attract drivers instead of an R4.

Time will tell.

[Jarek Z]

Where in the world does Toyota sell the Etios model?

Maybe in Paraguay? They even have an official Toyota team in their rally championship with Toyota Etios R5.

https://i0.wp.com/rally.com.py/v2/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/26b0cc4db3005c2e176efb97b353e07b-1.jpg?resize=1080%2C675

[Coach 2]

[QUOTE=mArvAlcao17;1198131]"but R4 isn't a good option either"

R4 may not be an option for you, but to conclude that R4 is generally a bad choice, will be incorrect.
For all countries where ASN has not chosen to allow "home-made 4WD" or made its own rules / class, such as AP-dit or datt, R4 is the option it was supposed to be.
If an importer or dealer organization wants to promote itself within rally, but represent a car brand that has not homologated an R5, they can build an R4.

[Sulland]

So maybe Tommi will hire a local firm to build him a Yaris R4 now to start off junior drivers there before going to WRC2, and to sell.

Would be good PR for Toyota. Most fans will see a Toyota anyway, apart from the few petrolheads.

[Zeakiwi]

There is already a Yaris R4 in Poland - Evolve. If the poles have built a few of them, hopefully they leanred from building process rather than have a finnish shop starting from scratch.
TMR could get the poles to do the chassis work and the finnish workshop would do the fitout and wiring (standard motorsport looms etc) for reliability and the techs can fault find on an event easily.

http://www.evolve-motorsport.com/yarisr4evolve/

2019 yaris hatch europe - limited run y20 and gr sport
https://youtu.be/5EambeTCiSc

[pantealex]

Remember that Toyota has said: We will make R2 and R5.

[Zeakiwi]

are toyota/ tmr/gr etc waiting for the 2020 yaris chassis before making an R5 due to limitations of the current yaris chassis?

[Tarmop]

Could very well be, but mostly it`s the engine they are waiting. But what scratch? I think they have enough experience and equipment from turning fwd Yaris into a WRC, so an R5 wouldn`t be a problem.

[Mirek]

It's not that simple with R5 due to rather complicated rules. It's actually very difficult to develop it. Every team found that, even VW had a lot of issues in R5 development. The main problem is that You have to use a lot of stock parts and You have a given price list not only for the car but also for most of its parts. This is extremely difficult to handle.

[Tarmop]

Well, but how should it give an advantage to R4 ( basically an Oreca kit mounted to a modified chassis of some make) builders ahead of factory know-how and equipment?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's not that simple with R5 due to rather complicated rules. It's actually very difficult to develop it. Every team found that, even VW had a lot of issues in R5 development. The main problem is that You have to use a lot of stock parts and You have a given price list not only for the car but also for most of its parts. This is extremely difficult to handle.

Speaking of R5 costs and especially parts, M-Sport told us they carry a parts stock of £2.5m to the rallies for their Fiesta R5 customers.

This makes it easier for their customer cars to source what they need but its certainly not much cheaper.

[Zeakiwi]

Probably been put elsewhere - computer drawing Subaru compact for Europe 2020? - probably a fiction. Sharing a Yaris chassis? like the Subaru BRZ/ Toyota 86 ? to be Built on the same production line?
from brm fb linked from syder 7 japan
R4 candidate if ever appears in reality? (semi team setup similar to BTCC subaru stationwagons?) rather than full wrc
https://spyder7.com/article/2018/11/06/8993.html

[Sulland]

Fiesta bad (we don´t need R1,R2,R4 and R5 from same car)

Dacia yes please !

Why, if a driver is a huge Ford fan, and want to buy a R4, he should be able to buy one.

For a team planning to do a season in a 4wd its usually about budget.
Budget to buy a car, new or used.
Budget to run the car in x rallies.
Budget to maintain the car in top shape.

Lets say that a R4 cost 150 000€, a R5 cost 250 000€, both new.
Running costs are probably more or less the same per rally.
Maintenance is said to be 20 to 30% less on the R4. Depending on the series, that could also become a lot of money. Not sure what a season in ERC or WRC2 will cost, but to get an easy figure to calculate with lets say 100 000 in ERC, that could be another 30 000 saved by choosing a R4.

using these unsure numbers a team could save 130 000€ first season.
Not bad!

What we do not know yet are how well the R4 will hold up, and if the 20-30% savings will stick.

[Mirek]

It doesn't work like that. To have money from sponsors you need results (unelss it's your own money, aka Al Quassimi & co. style and in that case you usually don't have a need for cost saving). That means that the performance is first and formost important thing. It's much easier to get certain amount of money for a driver who can convince his sponsors that he is ready to fight for the overall victory than 3/4 of the same sum for someone who presents them an idea to try to do the championship with a cheaper but slower car.

As it was said the R4 makes sense for overseas markets but not much for Europe.

For Your infomation around 2012-2014 in your math to drive older Punto S2000 or Proton S2000 was way more cost-effective yet nearly nobody did it. Simply because the cars were slower than than the Fabia.

[Sulland]

See your point Mirek, but you are lucky coming from a country where rally is big, and business see potential in sponsoring motorsport.

in many countries that is not the case, and up and coming drivers in many cases will have to pay most of it themselves. Many young talented drivers are either driving in national classes or R2 too long. Many quit rally, due to expenses.

For north european countries where cross country skiing, and football steal all the big sponsors, it is hard times to get a season even in the national series.

Getting in the Mirage and R4 might help, but still very expensive on a normal salary, at least in my country.
So now you know why I feel a cheap R3 4wd ala the old N4 class is a good idea.

[Jarek Z]

To have money from sponsors you need results (...) That means that the performance is first and formost important thing. It's much easier to get certain amount of money for a driver who can convince his sponsors that he is ready to fight for the overall victory than 3/4 of the same sum for someone who presents them an idea to try to do the championship with a cheaper but slower car.

Is a R4 car eligible for ERC2?

[Mirek]

AFAIK no

[PLuto]

It doesn't work like that. To have money from sponsors you need results (unelss it's your own money, aka Al Quassimi & co. style and in that case you usually don't have a need for cost saving). That means that the performance is first and formost important thing. It's much easier to get certain amount of money for a driver who can convince his sponsors that he is ready to fight for the overall victory than 3/4 of the same sum for someone who presents them an idea to try to do the championship with a cheaper but slower car.

As it was said the R4 makes sense for overseas markets but not much for Europe.

For Your infomation around 2012-2014 in your math to drive older Punto S2000 or Proton S2000 was way more cost-effective yet nearly nobody did it. Simply because the cars were slower than than the Fabia.

I dont agree with you. Comparison with S2000 is not the best, because you are talking about same cars in category. R4 was from beginning thought as lower class than R5, it should be a step between R5 and fastest 2WD cars - with the speed, price and costs. And with all protos or nationally homologated cars, I think there is still a lot of place for them, also in Europe. For me the biggest problem for that project was that "Oreca way" is simply too expensive...

[PLuto]

Is a R4 car eligible for ERC2?

Eurosport was trying to have R4 in ERC2 also for 2018, but it was refused by FIA. We will see what will happen for 2019. There are some teams interested in doing ERC with R4 next year...

[Mirek]

I dont agree with you. Comparison with S2000 is not the best, because you are talking about same cars in category. R4 was from beginning thought as lower class than R5, it should be a step between R5 and fastest 2WD cars - with the speed, price and costs. And with all protos or nationally homologated cars, I think there is still a lot of place for them, also in Europe. For me the biggest problem for that project was that "Oreca way" is simply too expensive...

Sorry but no such class exists in the current FIA scheme. Both R5 and R4 are RC2 class.

Besides that it's clear that overall results are the most important for the sponsors and a car sitting one class lower but being only marginally less expensive doesn't make economical sense.

[PLuto]

Sorry but no such class exists in the current FIA scheme. Both R5 and R4 are RC2 class.

Besides that it's clear that overall results are the most important for the sponsors and a car sitting one class lower but being only marginally less expensive doesn't make economical sense.

Yes, that is another problem. R4 cars should be in different class than R5 cars. And thats not true, not only overall results are most important for the sponsors. Because with this logic you should have no chance to find any sponsor with any car out of R5...

[Mirek]

And thats not true, not only overall results are most important for the sponsors. Because with this logic you should have no chance to find any sponsor with any car out of R5...

That's not what I have said. The point is that You can hardly get SAME or SIMILAR money from the sponsors to compete somewhere in lower classes. That's why the cars in lower classes must be reasonably cheaper, not only slightly.

[Sulland]

ERC should have a R4 class in 2019, maybe call that one ERC2 and the 2wd class ERC3.

Could also make a Under 25 class with R4 cars.

[Mirek]

For what? Cheaper ERC classes have been around for ages yet very few took part (ERC2 for gr.N cars, ERC3 for 2WD cars). ERC doesn't need more new classes. It shall work on what works, i.e. mainly U28 and U27. This is where the real value of ERC is and where the effort shall be concentrated.

U25 do compete in U27. For God's sake don't try to divide the so successful group into two. This is a perfect way how to change one successful championship into two useless ones.

[Sulland]

The most successful seies outside Wrc lately has been IRC. They took a gamble and went for S2000 as top class. It paid off so well that FIA killed both the car and the series off.

ERC of today has not been the success many of us hoped for, in terms of numbers.

So maybe show a pair again and go for R4 as top class?

[Mirek]

The most successful seies outside Wrc lately has been IRC. They took a gamble and went for S2000 as top class. It paid off so well that FIA killed both the car and the series off.

ERC of today has not been the success many of us hoped for, in terms of numbers.

So maybe show a pair again and go for R4 as top class?

Again whyyyyy? Why should anyone do that when every top team in Europe has R5? Sorry but have You come from Mars? What You suggest is complete nonsense.

[Rally Power]

For what? Cheaper ERC classes have been around for ages yet very few took part (ERC2 for gr.N cars, ERC3 for 2WD cars). ERC doesn't need more new classes.

Actually, it's not about having a new class; it's about getting R4 cars into ERC2, once R4 main purpose is to replace N4 in the rally scene; to run them on R5 class is a waste, as they’re not supposed to compete with R5's. Hopefully, FIA's new class naming will already have that in mind.

[Mirek]

Actually, it's not about having a new class; it's about getting R4 cars into ERC2, once R4 main purpose is to replace N4 in the rally scene; to run them on R5 class is a waste, as they’re not supposed to compete with R5's. Hopefully, FIA's new class naming will already have that in mind.

That makes more sense but I fail to see why it shall attract more drivers than today when the eligible car would be twice more expensive than today. Take into account that there were only four competitors in ERC2 who did at least four events this year - even though they could use cheap gr.N cars and fight for an official ERC champion title.

[Sulland]

Again whyyyyy? Why should anyone do that when every top team in Europe has R5? Sorry but have You come from Mars? What You suggest is complete nonsense.

If R4 is made top car class in ERC, the top teams will have to swap car to compete. Simple logic (non)sense ;)

But We need a few more rallies to see how much difference in speed there is btw R4 and R5, and to see reliabiliry on the R4s.

But as said before, I struggle to see R4 take the place of the old N4. It is way to expensive. Lets see if competition btw tuners brings prices a bit down, and hopefully there will be a second hand market in 2020.

[Mirek]

If R4 is made top car class in ERC, the top teams will have to swap car to compete. Simple logic (non)sense ;).

OMG, how is that cheaper to buy a completely new car when I have one and faster?

[PLuto]

That makes more sense but I fail to see why it shall attract more drivers than today when the eligible car would be twice more expensive than today. Take into account that there were only four competitors in ERC2 who did at least four events this year - even though they could use cheap gr.N cars and fight for an official ERC champion title.

The main reason why there were only four regulars were that FIA introduced that stupid rule about mandatory racing fuel tanks. I know about other 3-4 crews which were planning to do. Which is not so bad for dying category of cars...

[pantealex]

In Finland R4 compete in same class with "N4" beginning 2019. (we have 2 different classes for 4wd)

R4 is probably faster but same thing was when S2000 replaced "N4" and again when R5 replaced S2000.

[Mirek]

The main reason why there were only four regulars were that FIA introduced that stupid rule about mandatory racing fuel tanks. I know about other 3-4 crews which were planning to do. Which is not so bad for dying category of cars...

It wasn't any better in the years before. ERC2 and ERC3 have never been popular.

[Sulland]

Not that it matters in the big picture but I got my guestimate on money a bit wrong.
Taken from thos website: http://www.evolve-motorsport.com/yarisr4evolve/ +
http://www.evolve-motorsport.com/r4kitqa/

RUNNING COSTS

"While the price of the Yaris R4 is 20% lower than any R5 car, the running costs are something to look for. Designed with a focus on reliability and serviceability Yaris R4 provides up to 40% cheaper driving than the R5."
Buy cost R4 from 180 000 €.
If you get a local tuner to build it, even less than that.
But 40% lower running cost, and that "FIA is not planning performance upgrades to R4 kit for the next 7 years, so we expect, that all cars will be very close in terms of speed."
So no expensive jokers.

So in principle a 7 year old car will have the same spec as a new one. If they keep this plan, this might be a good car class, both for national series and also regional series.

The numbers given by ASM and Evolve are slightly different on buying price, while both say tha running cost is 40% less vs R5.

[tommeke_B]

Well, the kit has been out since this summer. The fact that nobody in Europe bothers to buy it, means a lot... Running cost "up to 40% cheaper" is not enough for having less than half of the exposure you would get in an R5 car. Also for 180 000 euros you have a proper (used) R5 car...

[Rally Power]

Well, the kit has been out since this summer. The fact that nobody in Europe bothers to buy it, means a lot... Running cost "up to 40% cheaper" is not enough for having less than half of the exposure you would get in an R5 car. Also for 180 000 euros you have a proper (used) R5 car...

€180k was the initial estimation; since then the kit got a 20k reduction and competition between tuners may also help taking R4’s final price down, wich now won’t be far from €150k.

Btw, if manus importers get involved in R4, these cars would be perfect for a national monotype Cup, allowing Adam or 208 Cup drivers to get into the 4wd field in an affordable way.

[Sulland]

Nobody have bought, but people need to see it, hear it, see results, and feel it.

Osian Pryce debut showed that the concept has potential.

Lets give it some more practical tests in rallies, and then judge. But as of now I feel R4 has potential.
For national series it should fit. Especially due to 40% less budget for running it, and that regulation is stable for 7 seasons.
So a youngster in a few years could buy a 3 years old car, and can compete with same level equipment, for a ok startprice.

Lets give it a chance, and hopefully the ewrc will keep track of them for us!

[PLuto]

I think we will see some R4 cars in ERC next year ;)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They have to do something to replace the old Evos and make (4WD) rallying more affordable. Otherwise it's going to die out except for factory teams and rich guys in the big events.

[Mirek]

They have to do something to replace the old Evos and make (4WD) rallying more affordable. Otherwise it's going to die out except for factory teams and rich guys in the big events.

Why should it die out when there is more and more R5 around every year?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Why should it die out when there is more and more R5 around every year?

That people cant afford.

[tommeke_B]

I think it's better to have less categories in national and international rallying, but better competition inside those classes. Leave the "allow everything that has wheels" to the amateur level. In Belgium nearly everything that has wheels is allowed, and we see most of those classes are nearly empty, while the competition in R2 and R5 is stronger than ever. No real need for an affordable 4WD class here, apart for some hobby drivers who wouldn't do a national championship anyway.

[Mirek]

That people cant afford.

As discussed already. The price which is or isn't affordable is very relative and it's mostly depending on the prestige of the said championship/class. Unless You spend Your own money on rallying of course.

Since the number of R5 cars (actually competing) has been growing everywhere this class is hardly going to die out.

[Tarmop]

The gap from R2 to R5 is still too big, in terms of performance but mostly price. Sending a youngster from a R2 into R5 has historically shown what can happen...several times, not to mention R5-->WRC. Some don`t manage at all, some take a step back before trying again etc. Not everyone is called Sebastian and from those lucky ones who manage to fight into WRC, not many get to the highest level. Youngsters really need 4wd experience at home, with less stress and smaller funding, idealistically a car they can take to some closer international competitions. One best example is fighting (theoretically, but still) for the WDC at the moment...

But R4 is still too expensive for that middle class. And examples from wealthy countries with several private R5-s running the nationals are not the best indicators...

[Mirek]

I disagree with You. I can see that the R2 - R5 step works very well. I would say near perfect as countless examples show (even here in CZ the good R2 drivers are immediately fast also with R5).

[Tarmop]

Yes, there are exceptions that confirm it plus the fact that they are fast at home, on familiar ground. Then we have the likes of Katsuta, who after several totalled and atleast one destroyed R5 took an impressive win in SWE18 and is going to have a go in the Yaris.
It cost 135k euros to take part in JWRC this season, with a nice prize at the end. How much would have it cost in a rental R5...not counting the possibility of totalling it.

[Rally Power]

What about currently rally absent top manus, like Renault or Fiat, or brands with modest rally past, like Dacia or Kia? Can’t R4 be interesting to them? Once they’re not planning to make a WRC or a R5 car, should they also stop their importers and delaers to get into rally through R4?

For sure R4 is not having a promising start, but it’s a valid category. It can appeal a large numer of importers and private rally costumeurs in Europe, if the FIA decides to promote it in a sensible way, starting by letting R4 cars to run on a different class from R5’s.

Once it was created by the FIA itself, with the purpose to fill the actual gap between R2/R3 and R5, people should recognize R4 as a complementary category and not as an R5 rival.

[dimviii]

guys dont waste your time with r4.

[Mirek]

Yes, there are exceptions that confirm it plus the fact that they are fast at home, on familiar ground. Then we have the likes of Katsuta, who after several totalled and atleast one destroyed R5 took an impressive win in SWE18 and is going to have a go in the Yaris.
It cost 135k euros to take part in JWRC this season, with a nice prize at the end. How much would have it cost in a rental R5...not counting the possibility of totalling it.

Sorry but Katsuta isn't proof for anything. Some drivers never stop crashing (see Meeke), some can never be fast as some others and that's perfectly natural (with Katsuta the real question is why is he going to drive WRC when he achieved nearly nothing with R5). Only minority of the successful WRC drivers drove gr.N cars and if so it was mainly due to the countries they came from (Latvala, Tänak, Paddon), some jumped from 2WD to S2000 (arguably harder to adapt than R5) and than to WRC (Neuville, Mikkelsen, Breen, Lappi, Meeke) and the most successful of them jumped directly from 2WD to WRC (Loeb, Ogier or also Sordo).

[Tarmop]

Because Gr. N died quite a while ago...and many didn`t even find the fundings for that, even nationally. Ireland is full of drivers with different gener. WRCs, because they can. Mikkelsen started with a private WRC (or a few) at the age of 17 because he could etc. If you have the money, then there is no harm in participating with R5 but at the moment it`s mostly a toy for the rich, thankfully many of them can drive.

[Mirek]

You said that sending a youngster from R2 to R5 is not a good idea (and that's what I answered to) and now You say that it's no problem if there are money. That doesn't make any sense.

[Tarmop]

I said there should be a cheaper 4wd option to use in nationals and internationals for those not born with a golden spoon in their mouth, so they could learn, find sponsors or gain experience and confidence to do their maximum with better and more expensive equipment. Some examples weren`t the best yes, because in those cases money wasn`t or still isn`t a problem (but who knows, maybe they would`ve developed more by now? (aanyways, that`s another story).

[KKS]

The gap from R2 to R5 is still too big, ... Youngsters really need 4wd experience at home, with less stress and smaller funding.
Agree with that, and old N4 rules 100% getting in into this gap. They need good 4wd car who everyone can build by his own. Yes it's another big step from N4 to R5, but driving skills and technique more equal than R2 to R5. FWD and 4WD even comparable.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Good driver's can take the step up from R2 FWD to R5 4WD quite easily. But this isnt the issue - its cost.

When a 5-year-old R5 is still over E100,000 (plus running costs), what normal person can afford that ?

Say I wanted to enter a decent rally series with a 4WD car, what are my affordable options ? Just ancient Subarus and Evos.

[racerx1979]

Good driver's can take the step up from R2 FWD to R5 4WD quite easily. But this isnt the issue - its cost.

When a 5-year-old R5 is still over E100,000 (plus running costs), what normal person can afford that ?

Say I wanted to enter a decent rally series with a 4WD car, what are my affordable options ? Just ancient Subarus and Evos.

Yup, just old Subies and Evos. There are also the proto cars which are slowly evolving. On the cheap they can be has for $50-60k depending on spec.

[Tarmop]

Only for certain national events...old N-s and Protos, although the last are one of the best things that has happened to a petrolhead fan, when talking about local championships.

[racerx1979]

Yeah too bad a lot of organizations don't allow protos to run. The Yaris, Suzuki, Mitsu, Ford and VW protos built by Dytko are decent quality and look great in person.

[KKS]

but all this proto's it's EvoX so what a difference of EvoX with Fiesta bodyshell and EvoX with Evo bodyshell?

[Tarmop]

Not all are Evo's and most if not all aren't really grp. N spec. Chassis and R5 style suspension is also a lot better than Gr. N.

[racerx1979]

Basically an old R4 EVO or WRX on steriods. Updated shock towers and chassis strengthening aids in a better overall car if built right. STEC, Evolve and Dytko all make great protos.

Similar to today's R4 concept with the power plant being an EVO motor. Some even have options for. Subie motor.

[Mirek]

but all this proto's it's EvoX so what a difference of EvoX with Fiesta bodyshell and EvoX with Evo bodyshell?

Evo is much bigger compared to those proto cars, it's heavy and it has very short suspension travel. All of that plays huge difference.

What gearbox do the proto cars have? H-pattern dogbox or sequential?

[racerx1979]

Evo is much bigger compared to those proto cars, it's heavy and it has very short suspension travel. All of that plays huge difference.

What gearbox do the proto cars have? H-pattern dogbox or sequential?

You can run a factory box, dogbox or a sequential. That's what's so great about it. Can spec one for 40k or go all out and have one at 80-100k with all the good stuff.

[racerx1979]

Here's a good look at the Evolve Skoda running Subie gear. Looks damn good too!

http://www.evolve-motorsport.com/fabia/

[PLuto]

Here's a good look at the Evolve Skoda running Subie gear. Looks damn good too!

http://www.evolve-motorsport.com/fabia/

But problem with this project is that manufacturers are not interested in it. And Skoda was one of the teams which were fighting against R4 as they dont want that some private build cars will start under their brand...

[Tarmop]

Basically an old R4 EVO or WRX on steriods. Updated shock towers and chassis strengthening aids in a better overall car if built right. STEC, Evolve and Dytko all make great protos.

Similar to today's R4 concept with the power plant being an EVO motor. Some even have options for. Subie motor.

And some are a mixture of Gr. A and WRC, some are fully based on Audis etc. Really different cars in the same class.

https://i.redd.it/7qaa31621nrz.jpg
Only Audi parts used.

[br21]

evolve car has totally nothing in common with r4, this was just computer graphic. it never existed and probably never will, so their estimation of building/running costs is just guessing.
their proto car with fabia body and subaru parts was also not succesfull, didn't drive much and had a lot of issues. now seems project dead.
other proto cars, based on evo drivetrain and mechanicals are more or less similar constructions, some decent, some nothing special.

[Mirek]

But problem with this project is that manufacturers are not interested in it. And Skoda was one of the teams which were fighting against R4 as they dont want that some private build cars will start under their brand...

This is actually a very valid point which we somehow failed to mention before...

[racerx1979]

I forgot to post this which explains running costs. A few of us sat down and did our own calculations and the build price they are stating at $140k can actually be done for $100k or less if you choose to assemble in countries like Poland or Latvia.

This link explains it very well.

http://www.heuvel-motorsport.com/proto/

[br21]

"Brand new proto car" is little bit confusing... especially comparing to "brand new r5" where really everything is brand new.
All protos I know (and I know most) were build from used evo parts. might be refreshed/rebuild but not new. if you try to build proto with brand new engine, brand new gearbox (not only gearkit, but casings also), brand new transfer, diffs with new LSDs and final drives, new suspension arms, etc, etc. then build cost will be higher than currently estimated. Other problem is not all parts are available as new anymore...
Van den Heuvel proto which is described in article was actually build in Poland. And is still on polish registration as it's not easy (impossible?) to register it in Netherlands, also just recently they were able to enter it into rally field, last few past years they were driving as zero/X car as federation didn't allow.

[Tarmop]

You are free to choose donors from every manufacturer, it`s your choice....We have the Focus RS, i30N, VAG (Cupra, Golf R, S1 etc)...you can be very creative and use brand new cars and the end result could/would be still cheaper than many seasons used R5 or an Oreca R4. Plus a well maintained-rebuilt old evo equipment isn`t a bad thing.

[br21]

In some countries (Finland, Poland) only Protos with Evo or Subaru parts allowed. Plus I don't think any modern 4wd system will be really useful in proper rally car. That's also why N4 died, as not anymore any suitable cars for it...
I know properly rebuild evo parts are not bad, but then you need to compare prices with used R5 cars, not with new ones. And still for example used Sadev/Xtrac/Ricardo rear diff will be much better condition than used RS evo diff with basically not known mileage... And this is not a big problem on gravel, but with powerful cars on tarmac RS rear diffs for example are weak and not easy to get good condition one.

[Rally Power]

But problem with this project is that manufacturers are not interested in it. And Skoda was one of the teams which were fighting against R4 as they dont want that some private build cars will start under their brand...

The currently rally involved manus aren't interested, but what about all the others? Probably most of them won't get into R4 directly, but they can still allow their importers to start a program locally, competing or promoting monotype cups, wich would be great.

[mArvAlcao17]

The currently rally involved manus aren't interested, but what about all the others? Probably most of them won't get into R4 directly, but they can still allow their importers to start a program locally, competing or promoting monotype cups, wich would be great.

I've said before that R4s could attract rather unknown manufacturers.

[Sulland]

I've said before that R4s could attract rather unknown manufacturers.

99% of those watcing will not know the difference. If it looks like a Opel, for them it is an Opel.
The rest are details.

[Mirek]

The currently rally involved manus aren't interested, but what about all the others? Probably most of them won't get into R4 directly, but they can still allow their importers to start a program locally, competing or promoting monotype cups, wich would be great.

Importers yes, but manufacturers hardly.

[Rally Power]

I've said before that R4s could attract rather unknown manufacturers.

Yep, you said it before, I said it before and many others said it before, some even when R4 was just a concept; now let’s all hope that the FIA and Oreca will manage to promote R4 among manus, not only to get unknown manus to the sport but also to bring back known manus that have quit rally. Fingers crossed.


Importers yes, but manufacturers hardly.

Agree, in Europe and South America cases, but in Asia, as we’ve been talking, local manus could get into R4 directly. Time will tell.

[Sulland]

Are ewrc-results.com planning to make a database part for R4?

[Mirek]

How do You want to realistically track cars which are not being build by the factory? You can not just physically go to every event and check it personally (quite often You would not be allowed to do so anyway).

Even S2000/R5/WRC databses aren't flawless. Plenty of times it's virtually impossible to track which car is which when teams have more of them and swap number plates etc.

[Andre Oliveira]

It is possible. By kit R4 number. And realistic... don’t wait many cars. Not the 282 Fiesta R5 or 260 Fabia R5... Wait for more info. Stay with us ;)

[Mirek]

Good luck with tracking such cars in South America or on some remote islands.

I am sure You know that even the current ewrc database has many mistakes in it.

[PLuto]

It is impossible to track correctly WRC/R5/S2000/S1600/R2 cars, with R4 it will be very similar...

[pantealex]

Good luck with tracking such cars in South America or on some remote islands.

I am sure You know that even the current ewrc database has many mistakes in it.

and most of R4 cars will be outside Europe. Vere unknown results.

[Andre Oliveira]

Mirek for sure we know. But the work need starts somewhere. I think we have a great sucess rate ;)

[bomber21]

What class is this new Nissan Micra Proto? R4?
It is prepared by Dytco Sport (Proto Cars), Tomson Motorsport και A.M.C. Racing. A Greek driver just bought it.

https://www-sport24-gr.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w820/s/www.sport24.gr/car/article5368402.ece/ALTERNATES/w460mobile/Nissan_Micra_Proto_Halkias+%285%29+-+low.jpg

[pantealex]

It´s NOT R4

It has mitsu/subaru engine.

Class name is different in each country, R-Lite in Finland.

There is that kind of Dytko Micra in Finland also.

[liposh]

To be more accurate there should be two versions of Dytko Micra in really very near future. Dytko Micra Proto and Dytko Micra R4. But I doubt they have finished the development of R4 version yet so the one on pictures is the "Proto" version.

[Sulland]

To be more accurate there should be two versions of Dytko Micra in really very near future. Dytko Micra Proto and Dytko Micra R4. But I doubt they have finished the development of R4 version yet so the one on pictures is the "Proto" version.

Any news on price differences btw the R4 and Proto Micra?

[Mirek]

Any news on price differences btw the R4 and Proto Micra?

Already answered many times in this thread and usually it was You who asked about that.

[Sulland]

Could a driver build his own car, as the old R4 from Colin Mcrae
1690

Does the shell have to look like a production car, as long as it is safe and secure enough?

[Mirek]

No, there is no class allowing such prototype cars on the internation level.

[pantealex]

Riku Tahko is "building" new MINI R4
body will be made in Poland (is there others than Dytko?) and tecnical assembly in Finland.
Car is up for rent in 2019 and Tahko himself will drive with it 2020 in Finnish Championship and WRC Finland.

R4 is allowed Finland 2019 in same class than "N4" (lancer/impreza)

[Jarek Z]

Riku Tahko is "building" new MINI R4
body will be made in Poland (is there others than Dytko?)

Yes, apart from Dytko
http://www.sport.dytko.pl/?setlang=en

there are at least 2 other companies that build proto cars in Poland:

Stec Motorsport (Bryan Bouffier drove their car in Rally Barborka):
http://www.stecmotorsport.eu/index.php/projekty/3-ford-fiesta-proto

and Evolve Motorsport (Mikko Hirvonen drove their car in Rally Barborka):
http://www.evolve-motorsport.com/fabia/

[Jarek Z]

According to this article from July Mini R4 is built by Evolve Motorsport:
https://wrc.net.pl/dlaczego-samochody-rajdowe-r4-wciaz-nie-wyjechaly-na-odcinki-specjalne

[Fast Eddie WRC]

@Ryan_Champion:
Really interesting day testing the Oreca-developed R4, thanks to @ASMmotorsport for the opportunity. This test car has now done an impressive 5000km with no issues! https://t.co/FdNbnJJQ4C

[Rally Power]

https://scontent.fopo1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47500431_1998447693556837_866971820513820672_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo1-1.fna&oh=9df6b30255bfd2acd97a28d008a9aa40&oe=5CA6CAAB

Milano Racing Fiat 500X R4 under construction; more pics on www.facebook.com/TeamMilanoRacing/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.fiaerc.com/fias-erc2-ruling-delights-oreca/

[Sulland]

Are there any stats on how many kits Oreca have sold per date?

[Andre Oliveira]

Video of MR500X by Bruno Zagatoï: https://youtu.be/zl7DKN4moyo

[Mirek]

Nice, looks definitely faster and more spectacular than any gr.N car.

[Rally Power]

Yep, it looks interesting, especially for a first test. Hope they sell well and other tuners will soon follow Milano Racing example. Fingers crossed.

[kure91]

Are there any stats on how many kits Oreca have sold per date?
Hard to say, but Oreca states in their press release, that there are already teams working on R4 cars: "Other teams have confirmed entering different cars equipped with the R4 kit in Latin America with RC Competicion (Argentina), but also in Africa with Rally Technic (South Africa). Several programmes have emerged in Europe too: Finland (Tahkomobili), Lithuania (Pro Racing), Austria (Signed Streets Motorsport), France (Milano Racing) and so Spain (ASM Motorsport)."
via https://www.oreca.com/en/news_oreca/r4-kit-heart-fia-erc-championship-2019/

[vino_93]

RC Competicion : Toyota Etios : http://rccompeticionteam.com/2018/03/09/rc-competicion-construira-primer-r4/
Rally Technic : various cars : Mazda 2, VW Polo, Toyota Yaris, Ford Fiesta, Hyundai i20 : https://www.rallytechnic.com/services
ASM Motorsport : Dacia Sandero & Ford Fiesta & Renault Clio : https://r4rallycars.com/
Signed Streets Motorsport : Audi A1 : https://www.leblogauto.com/2018/10/rallye-categorie-r4-se-developpe.html
Pro Racing : Skoda Fabia (see above)

[mArvAlcao17]

Hard to say, but Oreca states in their press release, that there are already teams working on R4 cars: "Other teams have confirmed entering different cars equipped with the R4 kit in Latin America with RC Competicion (Argentina), but also in Africa with Rally Technic (South Africa). Several programmes have emerged in Europe too: Finland (Tahkomobili), Lithuania (Pro Racing), Austria (Signed Streets Motorsport), France (Milano Racing) and so Spain (ASM Motorsport)."
via https://www.oreca.com/en/news_oreca/r4-kit-heart-fia-erc-championship-2019/

yet no Asians...

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

yet no Asians...Asia Pacific has AP4..

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[Rally Power]

https://scontent.fopo1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48408313_1125219257642722_7424797599107907584_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo1-1.fna&oh=b18493f80ceaefeddd6219d260a4a89c&oe=5CD2DC53

From Açores, Portugal, local ace Luis Pimentel is showing on his fb page photos of a Evolve Yaris R4; apparently he may run it on the first ERC round: https://www.facebook.com/luispimentelrally/

[Andre Oliveira]

Portuguese federation created national championship to R4 cars.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Team Toyota Paraguay
@teamtoyotapy

We started the 2019 with new design of the Toyota #EtiosR4 #TeamToyotaParaguay #ToyotoshiSA #ToyotaGazooRacing @Toyotoshi_py #Petrobras #Lubrax #Dmack

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzmqZzMWsAAqJ6O.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzmqaS6XQAAFneE.jpg

[Rally Power]

Actually, that’s the new shape of the locally homologated Etios R5.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_sbmCKX4AEToWS?format=jpg&name=small

http://www.motoradiario.com/rallyes/item/7570-asm-motorsport-ya-tiene-listo-su-primer-r4

[Andre Oliveira]

https://scontent.fopo3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67228555_886471245048249_7537945858231238656_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=107&_nc_oc=AQnei-x1yUBGUd3cit-l9gJa9odLCXANURXxBa15gaE_QBp40VoUK91yIrKhLHO7me8&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo3-2.fna&oh=5cc32a09ead689880a8a315d6f025e6d&oe=5DA1BBA6
https://scontent.fopo3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67199499_886454201716620_8474275890132418560_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQlF_cqKSAHl5JY4gswr_8CXaluj5Lh2R6Whebe0Sew Key5uiHsI0GrUKTU_hPVatek&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo3-1.fna&oh=ffa0e154d6ca4c9d0a521677123cf2a8&oe=5DB6C85B
https://scontent.fopo3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67212714_886454145049959_6799205174012280832_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQlDJ7t28Wv0nctfknOHY8-OllRyR5mLXEXVTHDf9qYqRaCQsrbbTRXhLp3EE93CLfc&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo3-2.fna&oh=e09a15337c0b9a7ebfd45d9ea8e38f71&oe=5DBE7504

[pantealex]

I´m glad that everyone so far has chosen different models than we had in R5.

I know that Fabia and Fiesta will come sooner or later.

Riku Tahko is thinking new BMW 1-series next.

[HaCo]

Very nice Dacia!!

[Jarek Z]

I´m glad that everyone so far has chosen different models than we had in R5.

But... nobody drives these cars :(

[Got Mail]

18001801

At Rallye Weiz as Zero car.

[HaCo]

That A1 looks very nice as well!

Let's hope more of these cars will come into rally stages!

[Andre Oliveira]

FIA R4 (what i know 2 months ago, should be more now)

Oreca from France
1 Toyota Etios R4

Milano Racing from France
3 Fiat MR500X R4

Rally Technic from South Africa
1 Hyundai i20 R4
(+4 kits for Hyundai i20 R4 and Mazda 2 R4)

ASM Motorsport from Spain
1 Dacia Sandero R4
(+ Dacia Sandero R4, Ford Fiesta MK8 R4, Renault Clio R4 and Audi A1 R4)

FORS Performance from France
(Renault Clio R4)

Evolve Motorsport from Poland
1 Mini Cooper S R4
1 Toyota Yaris R4
(+ Toyota Yaris R4)

Pro Racing from Lithuania
(Škoda Fabia R4)

Signed Streets Motorsport - Team WIET from Austria
1 Audi A1 R4

RMC Motorsport from Spain
(Renault Clio R4)

RC Competicion from Argentina
(Toyota Etios R4)

[HaCo]

Great to see the Clio is on the list as well!

[Andre Oliveira]

�� Le Team officiel Suzuki Motor Sport suspend son activité dans la catégorie N5 du Championnat Espagnol de Rallye asphalte à la fin de cette saison pour s’engager dans la catégorie R4 avec une Suzuki Swift ! Il s’engagera également sur plusieurs courses internationales grâce à l’homologation du Kit FIA R4 en WRC dès 2020 ! ��

�� Official Team Suzuki Motor Sport suspends its activity in the N5 category of the Spanish Rally Championship asphalt at the end of this season to enter the R4 category with a Suzuki Swift! The Team will also take part in several international races thanks to the eligibility of cars equipped with the FIA R4 Kit in WRC from 2020! ��

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_1xLL0X4AIgvmW?format=png&name=small

https://www.suzukimotorsport.es/2019/07/19/cambio-de-rumbo-en-el-equipo-oficial-suzuki/

[HaCo]

Great image... would be also a great R5! :D

[Sulland]

Another team plans Suzuki R4

https://m.facebook.com/367317247214103/posts/suzuki-swift-r4-will-be-available-as-ready-to-race-car-in-november-2019-price-18/383417288937432/ (https://m.facebook.com/367317247214103/posts/suzuki-swift-r4-will-be-available-as-ready-to-race-car-in-november-2019-price-18/383417288937432/)

[HaCo]

Fiat 500x R4 from Milano Racing curently holding 8th in Terre de Langres, with a nice 5th time in the last stage:
https://www.ewrc-results.com/results/55025-rallye-terre-de-langres-haute-marne-2019/

[Andre Oliveira]

ASM Motorsport Ford Fiesta MK8 R5

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_8EKhGWkAUcIuS?format=jpg&name=medium

[Ricardo Filipe Matos]

Beyond to those announced (Swift, Sandero, A1, Clio, I20, Fiesta, Etios and 500x) are others planned?

[Sulland]

New SA i20 R4 from Rally Technic
https://www.rallytechnic.com/services

https://www.facebook.com/rallytechnic/photos/ms.c.eJxFzkEORDEIAtAbTRRL0ftfbPJtarcvBECkmaDIskLFD wd2kGLJBtaXCMODTuy6oGwgBwxY2DEdWQ3uA37gdaABOYkD~;q B~;IO~_PWGyAD~;SPTA7owL7Avp66s3J~_wFmR65v1jAcncTuE 7qDVHxqLQTI~-.bps.a.2380072588909308/2380072848909282/?type=3&theater

1844

[Jarek Z]

Beyond to those announced (Swift, Sandero, A1, Clio, I20, Fiesta, Etios and 500x) are others planned?

There is also Mini Cooper R4 in Finland. Finnish driver Riku Tahko was second overall in its debut in Kalpalinnan Rallisprint.

Final results:
https://www.ewrc-results.com/final/5...lisprint-2019/

Photo:
http://www.evolve-motorsport.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/riku_isokoko.jpg

[Rally Power]

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/fia-plan-simplify-career-ladder/4554693/

Unless Evans got it wrong, or Matton is totally lost, apparently R4 may be revoked, giving room for a new 4wd entry class called Rally 3 in FIA's new 'Rally Pyramid':

Rally 3
“The home for the FIA's all-new, low-cost four-wheel drive car. The intention is to make this a current R2 car with a rear differential. Crucial to this new class is the cost of the car, which the FIA says has to be under €100,000 (£90,000). This will offer gentlemen drivers the chance to enjoy four-wheel drive in the WRC, while offering a cost-effective solution to the next generation chasing experience beyond front-wheel drive.”

It's a quite surprising move and besides all the tech and cost doubts it raises one can honestly believe, having in mind it took ages to sort out R4, that Rally 3 won't start any time soon.

Btw, the rest of the future ‘FIA Rally Pyramid’ is mainly a badge swop: Rally 5 will gather current R1 cars; Rally 4 the current R2; Rally 2 the current R5 and R1 will be the class for post-2017 WRC cars.

[Mirek]

R2 with 4WD would be very boring car to watch I am afraid. Too badly underpowered.

[Zeakiwi2]

Is there an online form where spectators can write into the FIA officials, writing that there are some people who do not want to watch boring 4wd R2 cars?

[Rally Power]

No this just looks the FIA muddying the waters and realising that the R4 class never had legs in its main market, Europe.

Probably, but to sort out a new category when R4 is still giving its first steps is quite puzzling…still hoping this is a misunderstanding and Rallye 3 will end being the current R4 Kit.

Btw, ASM Motorsport built Dacia Sandero R4 debut this wkd, getting a P2 on a sprint gravel rally, driven by Daniel Marban.

https://scontent.fopo1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/73079878_2457051694570777_6334778781063970816_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQlENvM6OVVIBBXYJGEM8aCNmnmS4zjGUhz8KyMaFaB Wxxq1Nl6yH-fpGrnRAYYkwaqFhz58lNI3T0VoWPmPIVNX&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo1-1.fna&oh=d867bc52fa2f1e1783a3317705a5576c&oe=5E276271

Video by Max Motorsport: https://pt-pt.facebook.com/maxmotorsportvideos/videos/543214876249757/

[Sulland]

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/fia-plan-simplify-career-ladder/4554693/

Unless Evans got it wrong, or Matton is totally lost, apparently R4 may be revoked, giving room for a new 4wd entry class called Rally 3 in FIA's new 'Rally Pyramid':

Rally 3
“The home for the FIA's all-new, low-cost four-wheel drive car. The intention is to make this a current R2 car with a rear differential. Crucial to this new class is the cost of the car, which the FIA says has to be under €100,000 (£90,000). This will offer gentlemen drivers the chance to enjoy four-wheel drive in the WRC, while offering a cost-effective solution to the next generation chasing experience beyond front-wheel drive.”

It's a quite surprising move and besides all the tech and cost doubts it raises one can honestly believe, having in mind it took ages to sort out R4, that Rally 3 won't start any time soon.

Btw, the rest of the future ‘FIA Rally Pyramid’ is mainly a badge swop: Rally 5 will gather current R1 cars; Rally 4 the current R2; Rally 2 the current R5 and R1 will be the class for post-2017 WRC cars.

How long ago was it FIA went for an overprized kit from Oreca, that formed the basis for the new R4 class, not long.
Now we see cars coming on the market, and 2020 is really the first year that teams can plan a season with R4, nationally, regionally, and that now also is allowed in The World Championship rounds.

Suddenly the "old man club" in FIA turn around and put together a new ladder, where it is hard to see where R4 fits in.

My proposal would be
R1 - WRCar
R2 - R5, no factory teams left, so no need for a "Pro" class
R3 - R4 kit
R4 - R3 = new R2 awd
R5 - R2
R6 - R1

All current cars will have to be re-branded with the new R Class, so we do not have two names, one for the class, and one for the car. Not logical!

That in my opinion, makes more sense, and we will have a real logical rally ladder, for all. National, regional and world series!

PS; Agree on that new R3 will not be a gentleman driver class, it will become a class for up and coming talent, that need a cheaper way into awd!

[pantealex]

How long ago was it FIA went for an overprized kit from Oreca, that formed the basis for the new R4 class, not long.
Now we see cars coming on the market, and 2020 is really the first year that teams can plan a season with R4, nationally, regionally, and that now also is allowed in The World Championship rounds.

Suddenly the "old man club" in FIA turn around and put together a new ladder, where it is hard to see where R4 fits in.

My proposal would be
R1 - WRCar
R2 - R5, no factory teams left, so no need for a "Pro" class
R3 - R4 kit
R4 - R3 = new R2 awd
R5 - R2
R6 - R1

All current cars will have to be re-branded with the new R Class, so we do not have two names, one for the class, and one for the car. Not logical!

That in my opinion, makes more sense, and we will have a real logical rally ladder, for all. National, regional and world series!

PS; Agree on that new R3 will not be a gentleman driver class, it will become a class for up and coming talent, that need a cheaper way into awd!

You are always wanting new things before we even have reserved old ones :)

5 classes is enough, try to forget all others.

R2 4wd is not coming 2020.

[Ricardo Filipe Matos]

R2 4wd? Yes what is needed is more 4wd:confused:

[Fast Eddie WRC]

@R4Kit
Six different #R4Kit models already ride in rally! The seventh is coming for soon... We cannot wait and you? #SuzukiSwift
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHEDED3WoAMSZXZ?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

[Damian Baldi]

Beside the cost differences between a R5 or a Maxi Rally and the R4, there is a difference in the concept of each car. The R5 is a car available just one step below the WRC for those whom could pay it. The Maxi Rally is a response to the argentinean needs for an affordable 4WD car in middle of the country realities. But the R4 isn't just a standarized Maxi Rally or a cheaper R5, it is focused on the driver's abilities or skills development (not in his wallet).

As I had read from Javier Castro (from RC Competition), the french engineers that had come to help with the development of the PSA turbo engine of the Maxi Rally, sent the MR idea to Oreca, and then Oreca sent it to the FIA. The FIA called to a licitation (won by Oreca) to develop the R4 concept. Castro said that the Oreca kit isn't just a kit to replace the Maxi Rally, it's a closed package to avoid the development, and it have every measurement and torque documented, the way to build each car and all the homologation information wrote with nothing free to be change (apart from the brand of the dampers you want to use).

The R4 have more electronics than a MR, even it have suspension sensors that I think send the information to the ECU to be recoveded later as data to read. The teams just have to make the car work, and then it's all up to the driver. That's the theorical reading.

I have put my throughts about the Maxi rally on their thread, later you could think about a complot of the FIA to control the market of the kit cars, but that's another story.

[Alpine-110]

What is price of the R4 kitcars new now?

Will ERC make this sole cartype for erc2 for 2021?

[pantealex]

What is price of the R4 kitcars new now?

Will ERC make this sole cartype for erc2 for 2021?

Those cars are now called Rally2+KIT

So far 0 starts in ERC, I don´t make rules but I´m pretty sure that N and R-GT are also allowed in ERC2 for 2021

[Rally Power]

What is price of the R4 kitcars new now?


Probably around €170K; that means 30 to 40 more than a decent second hand R5 and helps to explain why so few drivers are buying R4’s.

[vino_93]

Guy Botterill won the first two rounds of SA championship this week-end with Etios R4 :
https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/119219155_1565139503689122_6077985231297966509_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=8Fep6Ku5qIIAX-V32Z5&_nc_ht=scontent-bru2-1.xx&oh=3ea7a2e0e27c7e4dee49355838515a67&oe=5F85A314

Chris Coertse was here for the first outing of the Hyundai i20 R4 from Rallytechnic. He crashed on first race, then ended 3rd (between Botterill and him was the Yaris S2000 of Joubert)
https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/119447293_3295583370568106_5160313158214805615_o.j pg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_sid=cdbe9c&_nc_ohc=qmBb0BF6krEAX9l9Kn_&_nc_ht=scontent-bru2-1.xx&oh=62ae989c911d48db78dc398fd88455d6&oe=5F8920FD

[Andre Oliveira]

Renault Clio Rally2-Kit (R4) of Teo Martin Motorsport and MSI Race Tech

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EultPOkWYAQwXCR?format=jpg&name=large

[Coach 2]

Probably around €170K; that means 30 to 40 more than a decent second hand R5 and helps to explain why so few drivers are buying R4’s.

A little comment regarding the purpose of the R4 kit, Rally2 kit or whatever it is called.
It is very expensive for a manufacturer to make an R5. This means that many manufacturers, for various reasons, do not see themselves benefiting from such an investment.
On the other hand, there are importers of cars from brands that do not have an R5 who would like to participate in national championships, also for various reasons.
It is probably this need that the FIA ​​is trying to cover through this class for the conversion of suitable cars.
The regulations for this class must necessarily mean that they are somewhat less competitive than R5. Most people should understand this themselves without further explanation.
But the difference to R5 should (and is) so small that if one driver is x% better than another, it means that he can assert himself or make himself noticed. Maybe actually win the national championship he participates in.
I am very sure that this is not about creating a class where the cars are mainly meant to be cheaper than the R5.

[Sulland]

The FIA plan is that Rally3 will take over the place that was meant for R4, but underrated the price issue, and class flunked.

[Mirek]

Probably around €170K; that means 30 to 40 more than a decent second hand R5 and helps to explain why so few drivers are buying R4’s.


A little comment regarding the purpose of the R4 kit, Rally2 kit or whatever it is called.
It is very expensive for a manufacturer to make an R5. This means that many manufacturers, for various reasons, do not see themselves benefiting from such an investment.
On the other hand, there are importers of cars from brands that do not have an R5 who would like to participate in national championships, also for various reasons.
It is probably this need that the FIA ​​is trying to cover through this class for the conversion of suitable cars.
The regulations for this class must necessarily mean that they are somewhat less competitive than R5. Most people should understand this themselves without further explanation.
But the difference to R5 should (and is) so small that if one driver is x% better than another, it means that he can assert himself or make himself noticed. Maybe actually win the national championship he participates in.
I am very sure that this is not about creating a class where the cars are mainly meant to be cheaper than the R5.

There was a very important point given by someone here on the forum few years ago. There are places where a vehicle import tax makes R5 cars enormously expensive. In these places these kit cars actually make sense because they are built locally and thus far cheaper than R5 cars.

That's not the case of Europe of course, hence why we in Europe usually fail to see this point.

[AnttiL]

It's a shame that these cars will never have a chance to compete against real Rally2 cars, and on the other hand they won't be put in the same class with Rally3 cars, which their pace is closer to.

Riku Tahko drove a Rally2Kit Mini in the Finnish championship last year and at best he was matching the fastest Group N Mitsubishis, usually 2s / km behind the fastest Rally2 car. I'm expecting the Rally3 to be near the same level...

[Sulland]

What is the best driver that has driven these cars in one or more rallies, and what have they said about the package, compared to R5?

[PLuto]

This cars were never planned to compete with R5 cars, but to replace group N Mitsubishis and Subarus.

[Sulland]

This cars were never planned to compete with R5 cars, but to replace group N Mitsubishis and Subarus.

Agreed, but more to understand the true potential of the Rally2 Kit package.

[PLuto]

Agreed, but more to understand the true potential of the Rally2 Kit package.

We will see some of these cars this year in ERC2 (for first and last year), so we will see...

[Andre Oliveira]

Audi A1 Rally2-Kit by EKS

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvpY-cOXUAAmR4j?format=jpg&name=large

[Andre Oliveira]

With new structure of FIA, where will race Rally2-Kit in WRC?

[Sulland]

Own class only nationally, as far as I can read the two pyramides.

[PLuto]

With new structure of FIA, where will race Rally2-Kit in WRC?

General classification

[the sniper]

General classification

But, but... WRC officially told me Audi are coming back to WRC(2), just the other day...?! :D

[Mirek]

General classification

I really can't see any reason why they couldn't allow Rally 2 Kit in WRC3. After all the kits are mainly intedned for countries overseas and there is no reason not to allow them to start in WRC3. It doesn't really matter that the cars are slower. Why not to allow them to enrich the entry field with interesting local drivers?

[AnttiL]

I really can't see any reason why they couldn't allow Rally 2 Kit in WRC3. After all the kits are mainly intedned for countries overseas and there is no reason not to allow them to start in WRC3. It doesn't really matter that the cars are slower. Why not to allow them to enrich the entry field with interesting local drivers?

WRC3 will be Rally3 next year. Rally2 Kit could be faster.

[PLuto]

I really can't see any reason why they couldn't allow Rally 2 Kit in WRC3. After all the kits are mainly intedned for countries overseas and there is no reason not to allow them to start in WRC3. It doesn't really matter that the cars are slower. Why not to allow them to enrich the entry field with interesting local drivers?

They dont want to support Rally2-kit...

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ev074TBWgAYX4eE?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ev074TDXEAojVWR?format=jpg&name=medium

That is from FIA

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

NR4=Maxi Rally, AP4, & N5..??

Sent from my Redmi 6 using Tapatalk

[Kenneth]

NR4 was last gen of Lancer and Impreza, it was basically upgraded N4 cars.

[Andre Oliveira]

NR4=Maxi Rally, AP4, & N5..??

Sent from my Redmi 6 using Tapatalk

All you said are non FIA homologated cars. Only can run as NAT.

[Sulland]

So it seems for now that ERC2 will be left out next year.
So lets see if the Rally2 Kit Suzuki's in 2021 will do good enough to convince ERC to give the car class a cup to fight for in 22.
If not, the class will die internationally, and then nationally soon after.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.facebook.com/R4-Skoda-104397777941349/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EytEOzbXIAcCICB?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EytEOzmWgAoRL4v?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Sulland]

Why was the Rally2-Kit news thread closed?

[WRCStan]

Two weeks ago the FIA regs were updated and they're still calling it R4-Kit. Could be the Rally2-Kit name is dead, may be proven in the next sporting regs.

[TWRC]

Érdi said after the test in Canarias that they have been worried the car would be worse than the Mitsubishi - but it is well built, very pleasant to drive, good reactions, obviously less power and torque compared to the Lancer. They also said that after the test, they expect to be able to fight for the podium if everything goes well.

[Sulland]

Can the admin that closed the Rally2 kit/ R4 thread please tell us why they closed it?
If no good reason, please unlock it again!