New R4 Car - Think Tank

[PLuto]

Older version of R4 for Mitsubishi and Subaru was bad way. It helped to modify some parts, but in basic it was still group N car and other parts were not dimensioned for other stronger parts...

[Rally Power]

https://twitter.com/Oreca/status/902108980268367872 <---Oreca's test R4 car

After the 3D drawings on the Lada and Dacia, Oreca is now showing an Etios (Toyota’s B segment car for South America). Apparently their target for the R4 isn’t the European countries. If so, why change R5 regs?

[Jarek Z]

New project from Dytko Sport - Nissan Micra is being prepared for R4 kit:
http://rajdy.autoklub.pl/news/z-mysla-o-r4,79129

http://www.autoklub.pl/news/foto/201709/news20170906_79129h.jpg

[Rally Power]

Looks great! With the R4 kit it'll certainly be more expensive than with the usual Dytko proto specs.

Same news in English: https://www.facebook.com/ProtoCars/posts/799714613568412

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

I wonder if Dytko Micra will have R4 & proto version..?

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[AdvEvo]

Nice but price of an r4 will go to 180.000euro easy!

[liposh]

maybe it would need some European cup for R4 cars. Like the R-GT cup few years ago, but with better promotion and avoiding all the weak points of the R-GT cup concept.

[Sulland]

As a introduction class for 4wd as it was intended, the Dytko Proto way of thinking, of keeping cost down, would have been a winner. Both among young drivers on the way up, gentleman drivers and clubdrivers in national series.

Maybe they need to call that option R3, since current R3 Fwd is slowing in popularity.

[racerx1979]

The Dytko cars are great cars and everything is designed in 3D cad so the fit and finish is also very good. For $65k you can have a decent set up too. This would have been the way to go. Utilizing the old Evo or STI power plants is also good one since parts are easily available. Maybe call it R4 lite

[racerx1979]

I'm trying to see if I can purchase a Dytko car for rallying in Australia. I've heard it's not an issue, but I would not be able to participate in Rally Australia since it's an FIA event part of the WRC.

[AnttiL]

Maybe they need to call that option R3, since current R3 Fwd is slowing in popularity.

Could we have a category where smaller engined 4WD's and bigger-engined 2WD's would compete equally like the early Group A days when a VW Golf could beat an Audi Coupe Quattro?

[Rally Power]

The R4 Kit concept is interesting, especially because it allows to have a new breed of rally cars without manufactures direct involvement, but FIA is missing its implementation by choosing a unique supplier and not being able to effectively control the kit price (for the 108k Oreca is selling only a part of the kit; some vital parts are sold as options for an extra price!).

Besides, to impose a single spec Kit car as a rally category can make total sense to develop the sport in countries or regions were there’s a small rally market, but there’s no real need for that in Europe, where dozens of private rally tuners are long established.

The best option would be to set international rules for this new R4 category, which would included some mandatory components (like it was done with AP4 and N5), allowing different tuners from each country to homologate the cars on their local FIA affiliated ASN. That way a larger number of R4 cars would become immediately available, making them cheaper and easier to get.

[pantealex]

I'm trying to see if I can purchase a Dytko car for rallying in Australia. I've heard it's not an issue, but I would not be able to participate in Rally Australia since it's an FIA event part of the WRC.

You can enter WRC event with national car but can´t score points with it.
First it was only allowed for non euro events (longhaul) but now each rally can take national cars if they want. (Corsica and Finland had national cars)

[Andre Oliveira]

Portuguese João Fernando Ramos will debut Fiesta N5 by RMC in Catalunya.

[AdvEvo]

Could we have a category where smaller engined 4WD's and bigger-engined 2WD's would compete equally like the early Group A days when a VW Golf could beat an Audi Coupe Quattro?

In Holland we are preparing an Production class. That means cars which you can buy at every dealer new or second hand.

max 2.0 turbo or 3.5 atmo fwd or RWD. Every car gets special electronic case onboard which monitors you're speed and acceleration to have a nice competition. We are finalizing the rules at the moment. All those FIA options are way to expensive to start rallying.

[racerx1979]

I spoke with a contact who works for a WRC team and he mentioned an interesting point about the R4 cars. He said countries like Indonesia and even Australia have large taxes on imports. People who want a Skoda or Fiesta R5 in Indonesia to compete on the APRC would have to pay a large amount on taxes to import the cars. The R4 class allowing people to add their kit into any car that has a certain number of cars manufactured overcomes this issue. So a lot of people in Indonesia, Australia and other countries where import duty taxes are insane will benefit from these cars. Hence why Oreca are showing the Toyota Etios as a base car. This little Toyota was mainly for South America and Asian markets. The same markets which pay hefty duties if trying to import a car which is not sold in their region... So the target for R4 is most likely not Europe...

[Rally Power]

I spoke with a contact who works for a WRC team and he mentioned an interesting point about the R4 cars. He said countries like Indonesia and even Australia have large taxes on imports. People who want a Skoda or Fiesta R5 in Indonesia to compete on the APRC would have to pay a large amount on taxes to import the cars. The R4 class allowing people to add their kit into any car that has a certain number of cars manufactured overcomes this issue. So a lot of people in Indonesia, Australia and other countries where import duty taxes are insane will benefit from these cars. Hence why Oreca are showing the Toyota Etios as a base car. This little Toyota was mainly for South America and Asian markets. The same markets which pay hefty duties if trying to import a car which is not sold in their region... So the target for R4 is most likely not Europe...

That’s quite true, but in Europe there’s also room for a cheaper 4wd category. Many Evo and Impreza owners can’t afford a R5. R4 makes total sense, but not with this expensive and single supplied Kit.

[br21]

First rollout next week, then some tests in France end of the month and beginning of October big test session on gravel and tarmac.

[Jarek Z]

I'm trying to see if I can purchase a Dytko car for rallying in Australia. I've heard it's not an issue

I think it shouldn't be a problem. Some Dytko cars have been competing in New Zealand for a long time.
http://nzrallychamps.co.nz/nzrc-driver-feature-shannon-chambers/
http://nzrallychamps.co.nz/race-against-time-for-debut-of-exciting-new-car/

Here's Shannon Chambers and his Dytko Polo Proto:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LTnG15STAFc/VlekZLys06I/AAAAAAAAG6A/NXUzFYVm31Q/s640/11951288_1001437516553790_7689354201206156495_n.jp g

[Archie Gillaine]

Cant see the point in R4 really certainly when touted as a cheaper alternative to R5 but limited to a single supplier of the kits. This seems to fly in the face of opening up the market. We've already talked about the Maxi cars in Argentina etc and the UK has a log history of men in sheds building great cars, Andy Burton being at the forefront. Trouble is the RACMSA outlawed most of them so can see them having kittens about any new wave of machinery...

Ah, the good old MSA......friend to rallying since when??

[Jarek Z]

M-Sport chief rally engineer Chris Williams doesn't believe in the idea of R4 cars:
https://rallysportmag.com/m-sport-unconvinced-new-r4-kit-formula/

[Steve Boyd]

Cant see the point in R4 really certainly when touted as a cheaper alternative to R5 but limited to a single supplier of the kits. This seems to fly in the face of opening up the market. We've already talked about the Maxi cars in Argentina etc and the UK has a log history of men in sheds building great cars, Andy Burton being at the forefront. Trouble is the RACMSA outlawed most of them so can see them having kittens about any new wave of machinery...
If the new cars are based on the same FIA bulkhead & floor modification limits that apply to R5 cars then anyone should be able to build one in his shed & get an MSA Cat2 logbook. If you build one from a kit where more than 20 kits are supplied a year you may even manage to convince them it's a "Specialist Rally Car" and get a Cat1 book.

[GravelBen]

M-Sport chief rally engineer Chris Williams doesn't believe in the idea of R4 cars:
https://rallysportmag.com/m-sport-unconvinced-new-r4-kit-formula/

Nothing at all to do with the fact that a fair chunk of M-sport's business involves selling and running r5 cars of course!

(Not that I'm cynical or anything...)

[Steve Boyd]

Steve appreciate totally what you are saying and my post was a little tongue in cheek. I'm aware of cars like Craig Pennington's Polo etc just know how risk averse our governing body are getting. I still don't believe that there will be an appetite in the UK for this formula though as the cost will be high and cant see the local importers getting on board its not like the BTCC where they are happy to see other manufacturers parts being used in their cars. Also with M Sport being the "home" team the trickle down of cheaper WRC and R5 cars will be the default choice for a lot of drivers.
I know what you mean - I was writing somewhat hypothetically! Anyone trying to build a car to the FIA drawings themselves still has to climb a mountain to convince the MSA that what they've done is OK. As you say, with the trickle-down of old WRC & R5 cars added to the S2500 & R5+ options that are avaiable it's unlikely that we'll see much of either Dytko or R4 cars in the UK.

[mArvAlcao17]

I spoke with a contact who works for a WRC team and he mentioned an interesting point about the R4 cars. He said countries like Indonesia and even Australia have large taxes on imports. People who want a Skoda or Fiesta R5 in Indonesia to compete on the APRC would have to pay a large amount on taxes to import the cars. The R4 class allowing people to add their kit into any car that has a certain number of cars manufactured overcomes this issue. So a lot of people in Indonesia, Australia and other countries where import duty taxes are insane will benefit from these cars. Hence why Oreca are showing the Toyota Etios as a base car. This little Toyota was mainly for South America and Asian markets. The same markets which pay hefty duties if trying to import a car which is not sold in their region... So the target for R4 is most likely not Europe...

Firstly, let me introduce myself.

My name is Marv, and i'm a rally enthusiast and freelance journalist. In my Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/indonesianrallyfanbase/) I post quite a lot about the R4 because rallying at here is currently suffering, which one of the causes is lack of exciting cars on 4WD category, currently only fielding old Group N cars.

No people buy and run R5's at national championship because:
1. As the quote above said, the import tax is very expensive, which is 120%.

2. To made things worse, Indonesia goverment banned people from import used cars. Rally cars must run thru public roads on road section.

3. So, for example a new Skoda Fabia R5 price is (what i found from internet) €221,000. And with 120% tax = €265,200, which if converted into Rupiah means 4,2 billion, which is far too much.

4. Lack of manufacturers which build R5. From 9 manufacturers (both factory & privateer), there are only Hyundai, Peugeot, Proton and Mitsubishi whose sold their road cars in Indonesia (Ford withdrew last year). And all of them are quite inferior compared to Toyota & Honda, especially Peugeot & proton. That also means it's difficult to import spare parts.

There are no Mirage R5 at here, which the road car is quite popular on Indonesian road.

I, and many other people at here, is hopeful about R4 because we can build cars from stuff at here (Etios for example, which at here named Etios Valco). We know the complete car are still expensive, for example:

R4 kit + 120% tax (don't know the exact percentage): 108.000+22.000=130.000 euros
Brand new/used Toyota Etios Valco (at here Toyota's re-sell price are strong): 9500 euros
Manufacturing & development price: 6400 euros

So, the total=145.900 euros, or let say it 150.000 euros, which is 2.4 billions if converted to Rupiahs. That's quite a half fron R5 car completed with tax.

And there are some cars which cost even less than Etios Valco, like Honda Brio, which costs 7300 euros, or Datsun Go.

My calculations could be wrong though, but we try to save money as much as possible, and for us R4 is perfect. I admit that Oreca can cut something unimportant/too expensive to make it cheaper.

[br21]

You still need to remember about motorsport pieces which are not part of R4 kit - dampers - good ones would be 10k, seats, belts, extinguishers, all smaller things, etc, etc.

[mArvAlcao17]

You still need to remember about motorsport pieces which are not part of R4 kit - dampers - good ones would be 10k, seats, belts, extinguishers, all smaller things, etc, etc.

I know, but not sure the tuners at here would choose the high quality one. Usually they choose the cheaper one, or for wealthiest teams like Pertamax Motorsport, the between.

[mArvAlcao17]

I have a question btw. Is it possible to use used cars (as long the model is same as the new one), or even the older model, or is it must be a new one?

[OldF]

Hi Marv,

By your calculations the tax is not 120% but 20%. Is that tax (20%) additional to the VAT?

I found from Wikipedia that the VAT in Indonesia is 10%. Here in Finland it’s 24%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax

Is it the same tax problem with AP4 cars?

[OldF]

I have a question btw. Is it possible to use used cars (as long the model is same as the new one), or even the older model, or is it must be a new one?

I don't think it has to be a new one. Specific regulations for cars with R4 kit http://www.fia.com/file/58633/download/19422?token=mPk3dYbt

[mArvAlcao17]

Hi Marv,

By your calculations the tax is not 120% but 20%. Is that tax (20%) additional to the VAT?

I found from Wikipedia that the VAT in Indonesia is 10%. Here in Finland it’s 24%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax

Is it the same tax problem with AP4 cars?

Yeah, i'm wrong, but here is the correct one:

import duty 50%
VAT 10%
Pajak Penjualan Atas Barang Mewah (PPnBM), or Sales Tax on Luxury Goods 20%
Income tax 7.5%

So, let me count again:

Skoda Fabia R5 price in Rupiah is Rp 3.501.870.024 . From this chart (http://repository.beacukai.go.id/foto/2016/06/2701a54488e100dacf3f7011e2f46aae-besaran-penyesuaian-menurut-jenis-kendaraan.png), this car's price are being calculated with 42.33%, so:

3.501.870.024x42.33 = 1.482.341.581 Rupiahs. This is the Custom Value.

Then, i count the import duty, which is Custom Value x 50%:
1.482.341.581x50% = 741.170.791 Rupiahs.

The import value is customs value+import duty, so:
1.482.341.581+741.170.791= 2.223.512.372 Rupiahs

Then, the import VAT, which is import value x 10%:
2.223.512.372x10% = 222.351.237 Rupiahs

Now, Sales Tax on Luxury Goods, which is import value x 20%:
2.223.512.372x20% = 444.702.474 Rupiahs

The last is income tax, which is import value x 7.5%:
2.223.512.372x7.5% = 166.763.427 Rupiahs.

So, all of them counts:
Import Duty: 741.170.791
import VAT: 222.351.237
Sales Tax on Luxury Goods: 444.702.474
Income Tax: 166.763.427
= 1.574.987.929

So, The price+tax: 3.344.953.073+1.574.987.929 = 4.919.941.002 Rupiahs, almost 5 billions or 310267.52 euro, MUCH more expensive than i count before.

Not sure about AP4.

[mArvAlcao17]

Ah yeah, the source are here: http://www.beacukai.go.id/berita/begini-cara-perhitungan-bea-masuk-dan-pajak-impor-kendaraan-eks-perwakilan-negara-asing-dan-badan-internasional.html

However, when i re-ask my friend about 120% tax, he still insist that, adding that goverment doesn't wanna tell the public

[mArvAlcao17]

I don't think it has to be a new one. Specific regulations for cars with R4 kit http://www.fia.com/file/58633/download/19422?token=mPk3dYbt

Yeah I did the calculations wrong. Previously i sent a reply which explain the new calculations based from here: http://www.beacukai.go.id/berita/begini-cara-perhitungan-bea-masuk-dan-pajak-impor-kendaraan-eks-perwakilan-negara-asing-dan-badan-internasional.html

But somehow it wasn't sent (i realized i forgot to turn off VPN), but from what i count based from that link, the final price of 221.000 euro Fabia R5 + tax are 310.000 euro, or almost 5 billions Rupiah, MUCH more expensive than i count before.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Firstly, let me introduce myself.

My name is Marv, and i'm a rally enthusiast and freelance journalist. In my Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/indonesianrallyfanbase/) I post quite a lot about the R4 because rallying at here is currently suffering, which one of the causes is lack of exciting cars on 4WD category, currently only fielding old Group N cars.

No people buy and run R5's at national championship because:
1. As the quote above said, the import tax is very expensive, which is 120%.

2. To made things worse, Indonesia goverment banned people from import used cars. Rally cars must run thru public roads on road section.

3. So, for example a new Skoda Fabia R5 price is (what i found from internet) €221,000. And with 120% tax = €265,200, which if converted into Rupiah means 4,2 billion, which is far too much.

4. Lack of manufacturers which build R5. From 9 manufacturers (both factory & privateer), there are only Hyundai, Peugeot, Proton and Mitsubishi whose sold their road cars in Indonesia (Ford withdrew last year). And all of them are quite inferior compared to Toyota & Honda, especially Peugeot & proton. That also means it's difficult to import spare parts.

There are no Mirage R5 at here, which the road car is quite popular on Indonesian road.

I, and many other people at here, is hopeful about R4 because we can build cars from stuff at here (Etios for example, which at here named Etios Valco). We know the complete car are still expensive, for example:

R4 kit + 120% tax (don't know the exact percentage): 108.000+22.000=130.000 euros
Brand new/used Toyota Etios Valco (at here Toyota's re-sell price are strong): 9500 euros
Manufacturing & development price: 6400 euros

So, the total=145.900 euros, or let say it 150.000 euros, which is 2.4 billions if converted to Rupiahs. That's quite a half fron R5 car completed with tax.

And there are some cars which cost even less than Etios Valco, like Honda Brio, which costs 7300 euros, or Datsun Go.

My calculations could be wrong though, but we try to save money as much as possible, and for us R4 is perfect. I admit that Oreca can cut something unimportant/too expensive to make it cheaper.
Make Indonesian rally great again..!!

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[dimviii]

Oreca‏*@Oreca
First run at home for our R4 today! Next step -> gravel! #R4Rally
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKBaNiaWsAABYoo.jpg

[br21]

Today it was just a rollout on the track next to factory. So not much to say, but noise of the car is really ok.:-)

[racerx1979]

[QUOTE=Jarek Z;1156027]I think it shouldn't be a problem. Some Dytko cars have been competing in New Zealand for a long time.
http://nzrallychamps.co.nz/nzrc-driver-feature-shannon-chambers/
http://nzrallychamps.co.nz/race-against-time-for-debut-of-exciting-new-car/

Here's Shannon Chambers and his Dytko Polo Proto:

I know it's not an issue in NZ, but registration of the cars in Australia is a bit more complicated. Still trying to sort things out, but I'm sure it can be done.

[mArvAlcao17]

Oreca‏*@Oreca
First run at home for our R4 today! Next step -> gravel! #R4Rally
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKBaNiaWsAABYoo.jpg

it would be nice if R4 cars run without rear wing

[Munkvy]

Dykto cars in NZ haven't exactly been competitive or reliable. Whether that is driver and/or team that is preparing them I don't know. But they have so far been consistently beaten by Evos and WRXs, let alone the AP4s. Although the 36mm restrictor and E85 fuel probably helps the Evos and WRXs, along with our roads.

[dimviii]

Sarrazin at gravel
https://twitter.com/RallyingUK/status/910465650501541888

[mArvAlcao17]

Anybody here know why my replies are still not confirmed by moderators?

[mArvAlcao17]

I sent some replies 2 days ago, but not yet accepted

[PLuto]

Anybody here know why my replies are still not confirmed by moderators?

Hmm, I didnt know that some posts must be confirmed...

[Rasantes]

Sarrazin testing yesterday in gravel:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKPr3RPWsAEPHkO.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKPr4IRXoAE6ViE.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKPr5pHXoAAoDw9.jpg

[AnttiL]

Hmm, I didnt know that some posts must be confirmed...

I think it was for new users when posting links. Spam bots usually post links, so that's why fresh users must be watched.

[mArvAlcao17]

I think it was for new users when posting links. Spam bots usually post links, so that's why fresh users must be watched.

hmm...do you know how many time it neede before it's confirmed?

[pantealex]

hmm...do you know how many time it neede before it's confirmed?

For pics it was 20 messages if I remember correctly.

[mArvAlcao17]

I just made the list of the cars which eligible to be converted to R4 spec, and driven it into Indonesian Championship. Some of them made me interested.

Of course the list could be shorter considering numerous things.

1 euro = 15928.33 rupiah

1389

[racerx1979]

The biggest concern for me would be build costs. You would need to heavily modify the chassis in order to fit the 4wd drivetrain, wheel well modification, fuel cell mounting, updated subframe mounts, suspension turrets etc. I'm sure labor rates are cheaper in Indonesia than many countries, but the process would need to be carried out by a top spec fabrication shop. In the USA, Australia, NZ or Europe, the cost to build a chassis around an R4 spec car would be quite high. This would then bring the price close to the R5 spec after all is said and done.

If one can buy a car directly from Oreca ready to run, such as the Toyota Etios, than it would be the best case scenario. What does one do with a one-off custom built chassis when they have an accident and need a new shell. It's not like we have a ton of Toyota Yaris R4 body shells for sale. Do you build two shells so you can have a spare? I can find a few Fiesta and Skoda R5 shells for sale in a few minutes via the popular rally classified sites.

[mArvAlcao17]

The biggest concern for me would be build costs. You would need to heavily modify the chassis in order to fit the 4wd drivetrain, wheel well modification, fuel cell mounting, updated subframe mounts, suspension turrets etc. I'm sure labor rates are cheaper in Indonesia than many countries, but the process would need to be carried out by a top spec fabrication shop. In the USA, Australia, NZ or Europe, the cost to build a chassis around an R4 spec car would be quite high. This would then bring the price close to the R5 spec after all is said and done.

If one can buy a car directly from Oreca ready to run, such as the Toyota Etios, than it would be the best case scenario. What does one do with a one-off custom built chassis when they have an accident and need a new shell. It's not like we have a ton of Toyota Yaris R4 body shells for sale. Do you build two shells so you can have a spare? I can find a few Fiesta and Skoda R5 shells for sale in a few minutes via the popular rally classified sites.

Buying cars directly from Oreca is the worst scenario as well for us because the hefty tax. However i never heard any cars destroyed during rally, so the crews at here can keep their car very well (of course R4 could be challenging). If teams like Toyota Team Indonesia could support the project at here...

[racerx1979]

Would you be paying taxes on the kit itself from Oreca? Are goods taxed similar to vehicles?

[mArvAlcao17]

Would you be paying taxes on the kit itself from Oreca? Are goods taxed similar to vehicles?

We rather buy the kit & pay the taxes rather than do a risky thing by buying a R5 car which hard for us to maintain because lack of car manufacturer's representatives/dealers (No Skoda, no Ford, Hyundai & Peugeot are the minnows).

No matter what, I can assume that completed R4 cars, at least the cars which built at here, would be cheaper (a bit or a bunch, doesn't matter) than a R5 cars. (Finally there are some advantage thru government-implemented LCGC cars). What matter most is the maintenance cost because we rarely change cars, and relatively short rally (There is a sprint rally & a long-stage rally which could be done in just 1 day).

[sollitt]

I'm trying to see if I can purchase a Dytko car for rallying in Australia. I've heard it's not an issue, but I would not be able to participate in Rally Australia since it's an FIA event part of the WRC.For the answers to your questions around local eligibility you need to talk with your country's ASN - CAMS. I suggest a conversation with Col Trinder - Chairman Australian Rally Commission.
There are Dytko cars already in use in Australia as there are in New Zealand. In NZ the clock is already ticking on their shelf life for use in the domestic championship. I don't know the situation in Aus.

I saw your earlier comment regarding quality. You'd want to speak to people who have imported these cars already.
The concept is good and the price attractive. However, as I understand it, those imported into NZ have all undergone a major rebuild before being suitable for use there.

[racerx1979]

For the answers to your questions around local eligibility you need to talk with your country's ASN - CAMS. I suggest a conversation with Col Trinder - Chairman Australian Rally Commission.
There are Dytko cars already in use in Australia as there are in New Zealand. In NZ the clock is already ticking on their shelf life for use in the domestic championship. I don't know the situation in Aus.

I saw your earlier comment regarding quality. You'd want to speak to people who have imported these cars already.
The concept is good and the price attractive. However, as I understand it, those imported into NZ have all undergone a major rebuild before being suitable for use there.

Thanks for the response and quality info @sollitt

The Polo shell I saw seemed fairly decent as far as the roll cage was concerned. I think the best thing is to buy the shell and install your own components as opposed to Dytko doing it.

I will get in touch with Col Trinder to see what can be done to get the Proto cars into Aus.

The other option is just to get an Evo 9 or Evo x with R4 running gear.

[mArvAlcao17]

Teemu Suninen's latest test with Etios R4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJLeefyvLak
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZAggk1juR4

[Zeakiwi]

We rather buy the kit & pay the taxes rather than do a risky thing by buying a R5 car which hard for us to maintain because lack of car manufacturer's representatives/dealers (No Skoda, no Ford, Hyundai & Peugeot are the minnows).

No matter what, I can assume that completed R4 cars, at least the cars which built at here, would be cheaper (a bit or a bunch, doesn't matter) than a R5 cars. (Finally there are some advantage thru government-implemented LCGC cars). What matter most is the maintenance cost because we rarely change cars, and relatively short rally (There is a sprint rally & a long-stage rally which could be done in just 1 day).

What you will have to be careful of; if the R4 Kit is designed for a body shell built in Europe , there are likely to be subtle differences if trying to put the kit in a Asian made body shell.
What you could try is get one of the official Australasian AP4 constructors (if the French R4 kit makers do not supply) make you a welding jig for the local construction of rally body shells. They have made a few car body shell welding jigs before.
http://bit.ly/2guWKfb (VW Polo AP 4 Australia with evo gearbox) $200 000 Australian for a cost focused AP4.

The Mazda 2 would probably be one of the lesser difficulty builds as base platform is the same as the CX and has the driveshaft tunnel as standard.
If the Subaru wrx sti is eligible that should be looked at too as it is already 4wd.

[mArvAlcao17]

What you will have to be careful of; if the R4 Kit is designed for a body shell built in Europe , there are likely to be subtle differences if trying to put the kit in a Asian made body shell.
What you could try is get one of the official Australasian AP4 constructors (if the French R4 kit makers do not supply) make you a welding jig for the local construction of rally body shells. They have made a few car body shell welding jigs before.
http://bit.ly/2guWKfb (VW Polo AP 4 Australia with evo gearbox) $200 000 Australian for a cost focused AP4.

The Mazda 2 would probably be one of the lesser difficulty builds as base platform is the same as the CX and has the driveshaft tunnel as standard.
If the Subaru wrx sti is eligible that should be looked at too as it is already 4wd.

Noted. From the list which i made, i know that some cars could be excluded because the bodyshell is either too short or too fragile.

So, from Indonesia's perspective, what could be: Toyota Etios, Nissan Micra & Mazda 2. don't know about the others.

Btw, Subaru dealers at here was banned because of the tax fraud, so it's rare for me to see the cars.
Good news is Ford will return to Indonesia, so thing getting a little bit easier

[br21]

Doesn't matter if bodyshell is from European version of car or Asian or other... anyway you need to modify it to accomodate R4 kit

[br21]

next week first tarmac tests of Etios R4

[mousti]

next week first tarmac tests of Etios R4It will start also at Rallye du Var

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[mArvAlcao17]

It will start also at Rallye du Var

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

any news about that?

[br21]

nothing 100% sure yet, I'll be there next week so I will know more.

[mArvAlcao17]

RMC Motorsport are the R4's first customer, will fit the kit into Renault Clio

http://revistascratch.com/nacional-asfalto/noticia/rmc-y-renault-espana-los-primeros-en-estrenar-el-kit-r4-40442?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Rally Power]

The Clio has still got some way to go judging by its performance on the last couple of events .

Till the R4 becomes available, Renault Spain is using a Clio N5 (Spain’s version of the Maxi Rally), as RMC is deeply involved on the N5 development. Although they got a similar layout, R4 is expected to be faster, due to a stronger transmission and better brakes.

Btw, besides the Clio, RMC has already build N5 versions of the 208, Fiesta and DS3. JA Suarez (Peugeot ERC driver) has managed to become ’17 spain gravel champion with a 208.

[Rasantes]

RMC Motorsport are the R4's first customer, will fit the kit into Renault Clio

http://revistascratch.com/nacional-asfalto/noticia/rmc-y-renault-espana-los-primeros-en-estrenar-el-kit-r4-40442?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Yes, the head of RMC Motorsport(Roberto Méndez) is at the Oreca facility today.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMQb_3MX0AAdKck.jpg:large


Btw, besides the Clio, RMC has already build N5 versions of the 208, Fiesta and DS3. JA Suarez (Peugeot ERC driver) has managed to become ’17 spain gravel champion with a 208.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMNAJbpWsAAWsvT.jpg:large

[electroliquid]

R4 tarmac tests, with Samsonas suspension: https://www.facebook.com/SamsonasRacingSuspension/photos/pcb.2140017756225551/2140017046225622/?type=3&theater

[HaCo]

Video of the test...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx7EwVr3kcA&feature=youtu.be

Looking forward to the Clio!

[br21]

Car is really nice!

[PLuto]

Car is really nice!

But expensive...

[Sulland]

Lets say a new complete R4 costs 150 000€, and you can get a good 2nd hand Fiesta R5 for that price.

It is of course early to say anything about running-, and sparepart costs for the new R4, so a few unknowns still.

What are the reports from drivers on the Oreca R4 testcar? Especially on the engine and feel of the car behaviour?

[br21]

For 150k euros you can build decent R4 I think. For such price you can't get any good R5, but that is just as an information.
Running costs should be some 30-40% less than R5. Spare parts for sure cheaper, as most parts you can buy from external suppliers, not directly from Oreca. Engine with auxilliaries is almost standard, so cheaper to run and rebuild, transmission possible that little cheaper also. Suspension parts from kit not more expensive, other parts not from kit sure also much cheaper. Running cost/performance ratio attractive for sure, buying/building cost is only challenge...
Car is really nice, on tarmac like gokart. Gravel also good, as suspension stroke is longer than R5. Engine quite good, less advanced than R5 but 33mm restrictor helps, plus good mapping, good antilag, hopefully better management of pop-off than most R5...
In my opinion if you spend little bit less than new r5 then you can have similar fast car, need money for good parts plus good engineering.
If car build budget way then decent machinery still and cost of building/buying little smaller plus running cost significantly lower.
It good opportunity if you can have some financial support of local/national dealer, etc.

[Mirek]

Any R4 already ordered from Poland? ;)

[mArvAlcao17]

Lets say a new complete R4 costs 150 000€, and you can get a good Fiesta R5 for that price.

It is of course early to say anything about running-, and sparepart costs for the new R4, so a few unknowns still.

What are the reports from drivers on the Oreca R4 testcar? Especially on the engine and feel of the car behaviour?

I thin no way the new R5 cost in 150k. Some said the new one cost 180-220k, while the used one costs less

[br21]

Any R4 already ordered from Poland? ;)
To Poland not yet:-)

[br21]

I thin no way the new R5 cost in 150k. Some said the new one cost 180-220k, while the used one costs less

Sulland wrote about R4 cost...
All new R5 cars cost over 220k.

[nafpaktos]

I thin no way the new R5 cost in 150k. Some said the new one cost 180-220k, while the used one costs less

about 230k (with the latest specs)

[Rally Power]

http://www.oreca.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ORECA_Plaquette_R4_New_EN_BD_Planches.compressed.p df

On their last brochure, Oreca estimates the R4 price between 166.000€ and 181.000€ (according to current usd/eur rate; pages 24/25). That value comprises assembly work costs. The same doc indicates R4 will tend to cost less 20% than a new R5 and exploitations costs are expected to be 35 to 40% lower, like br21 mentioned.

The 15k price gap isn’t explained, but one can guess that 181k is the price Oreca expects top tuners will sell complete cars to costumers.

Anyway, R4 is a needed category and hopefully it’ll bring a new and exciting variety of brands and models to rally. Unfortunately, the base kit inflated price and having just one worldwide supplier can jeopardy R4 future. Time will tell.

[Mirek]

Anyway, R4 is a needed category...

Is it? I'm not sure about that. I see R5 class living a successful and healthy live everyhere and I am not sure if R4 with the expected price and running cost can succeed because it is not a top a tier class in any championship and as such it looks too expensive to me. I'm afraid that it will only parazitize on the R5 class, i.e. making number of R5 cars slightly lower (by taking some money available in the sport away) while not adding anything significant to any championship.

[mArvAlcao17]

Is it? I'm not sure about that. I see R5 class living a successful and healthy live everyhere and I am not sure if R4 with the expected price and running cost can succeed because it is not a top a tier class in any championship and as such it looks too expensive to me. I'm afraid that it will only parazitize on the R5 class, i.e. making number of R5 cars slightly lower (by taking some money available in the sport away) while not adding anything significant to any championship.

Some doesn't need R4, some need them, and some desperately need that.

One more thing is R5 are not avaliable/affordable in some countries

[Sulland]

Have edited my post.
The Fiesta R5 I meant was a second hand one. You can get a Fiesta R5 Evo for that, but maybe not an Evo 2.
Still for a national title that might be sufficiant.

[Rally Power]

Is it? I'm not sure about that. I see R5 class living a successful and healthy live everyhere and I am not sure if R4 with the expected price and running cost can succeed because it is not a top a tier class in any championship and as such it looks too expensive to me. I'm afraid that it will only parazitize on the R5 class, i.e. making number of R5 cars slightly lower (by taking some money available in the sport away) while not adding anything significant to any championship.

I remember you weren’t sure about having ’17 WRC cars and guess what; they’re the best thing it happened to WRC for ages...

The need for a 4wd entry class has been undisputed. Through R4 many importers and big dealers of brands currently not involved in rally will get the chance to join the sport, while a lot of privateers will be able to replace their aging Evo’s and Impreza’s with a interesting alternative to the used R5’s market, which in many cases wasn’t really an alternative due to R5 running costs.

To base a new category on a mandatory mechanical kit may eventually shock the purists, but it makes sense having in mind private tuners will have a major role on the class development and R4 isn’t supposed to be a leading category in national or international series.

For sure there are still some reasonable doubts on R4 future, mainly due to FIA’s inability to fix a fair price for the kit (108k seems too much for what you get) and having a single worldwide supplier (which can raise availability and even reliability issues) but, hopefully, they won’t stop R4 from being a success and provide a larger range of exciting rally cars. Fingers crossed!

[Mirek]

I remember you weren’t sure about having ’17 WRC cars and guess what; they’re the best thing it happened to WRC for ages...

The battle between the manufacturers is indeed good but every time a new rules come the initial seasons are good. We have to wait few more years to judge properly. Anyway there are not only pros. The new cars are extremely difficult to run for privateers.


The need for a 4wd entry class has been undisputed. Through R4 many importers and big dealers of brands currently not involved in rally will get the chance to join the sport, while a lot of privateers will be able to replace their aging Evo’s and Impreza’s with a interesting alternative to the used R5’s market, which in many cases wasn’t really an alternative due to R5 running costs.

With the announced price and running cost the R4 can't be called an entry class at all - and they aren't an N4 replacement either (most of the teams running N4 can't run R4 for the same money). Also the argument with new importers being able to take part isn't fully valid. If the R4 were top tier class it would but I doubt many importers are interested in placing reasonable money in a project which can bring only class victories moreover in national events. Those have very low marketing value and don't justify investments.

Also - for what is an entry 4WD class needed? I can see that the way R2 -> R5 works very fine, can't You?

I understand the need of such class in some countries where R4 would basically replace (largely non-existent) R5 not run under them.


To base a new category on a mandatory mechanical kit may eventually shock the purists, but it makes sense having in mind private tuners will have a major role on the class development and R4 isn’t supposed to be a leading category in national or international series.

I have nothing against the concept itself.


For sure there are still some reasonable doubts on R4 future, mainly due to FIA’s inability to fix a fair price for the kit (108k seems too much for what you get) and having a single worldwide supplier (which can raise availability and even reliability issues) but, hopefully, they won’t stop R4 from being a success and provide a larger range of exciting rally cars. Fingers crossed!

Yes, there's a hope, I agree. Time will tell.

[mArvAlcao17]

I remember you weren’t sure about having ’17 WRC cars and guess what; they’re the best thing it happened to WRC for ages...

It's shame that the privateers are no longer able to run the car purely by themselves. But on the cost side, so yeah.

[mArvAlcao17]

Biggest issue for me is the single supplier, although this allows consistency of things like safety aspects (hopefully) and scrutineering, it does nothing to increase competition and drive costs down. I just hope this isn't another RRC class that will fizzle out when the FIA comes up with another new shiny idea.

IMO there should be some freedom in certain parts like engine (tbh i'm not sure it would worked on this one) or simpler transmission (manual H shift, anyone?). No need for the sequential because it's already on R5 - but R2&R3 cars are sequential....

[Rally Power]

With the announced price and running cost the R4 can't be called an entry class at all - and they aren't an N4 replacement either (most of the teams running N4 can't run R4 for the same money). Also the argument with new importers being able to take part isn't fully valid. If the R4 were top tier class it would but I doubt many importers are interested in placing reasonable money in a project which can bring only class victories moreover in national events. Those have very low marketing value and don't justify investments.

To win overall isn’t the only motivation for manus. Ford is spending millions on the LM/WEC program and they’re only fighting for a class win at the back of the field. It’s not hard to believe that brands with no intention to develop R5 or WRC cars will allow their importers to enter into R4, as Renault and Suzuki Spain are already doing with N5 (a sort of pre R4).

Privateers may find R4 price excessive, but running costs are much lower regarding R5, which can be decisive on their car choices. Besides, to be fighting for a R4 class win can become more attractive to 2nd level teams than struggling to get into top 10 with a R5 that they can hardly maintain.

I agree R4 isn’t the cheap 4wd entry class we were hoping for; still it has lots of potential and it’ll, hopefully, help our sport to grow. That’s what mostly matters.

[Mirek]

I would not compare the situation of R4 with class win in LM/WEC. A class on the world level is uncomparable with a class on national level. It's like comparing a victory in WRC3 in Catalunya with a victory in RC4 in Rally Příbram (chosen for same date :) ).

[OldF]

IMO there should be some freedom in certain parts like engine (tbh i'm not sure it would worked on this one) or simpler transmission (manual H shift, anyone?). No need for the sequential because it's already on R5 - but R2&R3 cars are sequential....

The AP4 regulations gives more freedom choosing engine and other parts (and would be also closer to you :)). I copied some parts from the regulations.
http://docs.cams.com.au/Manual/Rally/2017/RR21-CAMS%20Group%20AP4_V2%202017.pdf


Eligible Engines (page 5)
Either a “Series Production Engine” or the “AP4 Designated Joker Engine” are authorised, under the following conditions:
4 cylinder up to a maximum capacity of 1620* cm3 (being 2754 cm3 with 1.7 forced induction coefficient applied).
Note: The bore/stroke may be adjusted to achieve the designated 1620 cm3 capacity.

At least 2500 identical engine units must have been produced in 12 consecutive months. It will be possible to count models from another manufacturer, provided that they are equipped with the same engine (strictly identical) and produced in a quantity of at least 5000 units in 12 consecutive months.

The AP4 designated engine is:
- EP6 ‘Prince’ series 1598cc turbocharged engine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_engine#1.6


Also sourcing of brakes is freer (page 17).

- Calipers / Discs (rotors) and mounting bells (hats) must be commercially available mass-produced parts from a recognised brake components manufacturer,
- All parts must come from a large scale production catalogue or from a competition parts catalogue, except the mounting brackets which may be freely sourced.


Gearbox (page 14)
Two options for a sequential gearbox (Xtrac or Sadev).

- Either a ‘production based’ series gearbox from any large scale series production Touring Car is authorised or a ‘control design part’ gearbox is authorised as detailed in PART THREE List 3 of these regulations.

- Either an ‘H’ pattern or sequential gear selection control linkage is authorised provided its operation remains solely mechanical. The gear lever shall be fixed on either the floor or the steering column and can be adjustable.

[mArvAlcao17]

Is it possible to select the parts you want to buy the R4 kit or must buy all of them?

[br21]

Is it possible to select the parts you want to buy the R4 kit or must buy all of them?

It's a "kit" so you need to buy complete to be able to build and homologate the car

[Daniel Popov]

What class are the R4's going to run in? Probably it is discussed already somewhere, but I have missed it.
They can't be in RC2, neither in RC3.

[mArvAlcao17]

What class are the R4's going to run in? Probably it is discussed already somewhere, but I have missed it.
They can't be in RC2, neither in RC3.

R3 maybe? The R3 cars are quite old now, and there is R2 class.

[pantealex]

R3 maybe? The R3 cars are quite old now, and there is R2 class.

R2 and R3 are not classes, they are car types. R3 cars are not all old (Toyota GT86 and Renault Clio both still in production)

R4 should be in RC2 because N4, NR4 (Mitsubishi´s and Subaru´s) are there also with S2000 and R5

[Sulland]

Before next year is a good option to harmonize car type and classes. Since today it is a logical breach, and makes no sense for anyone but us petrolheads!

Now New New
WRC --> R1 = RC1 (WRC will then mean World Rally Championship only, and not a cartype as well.
R5 --> R2 = RC2
R4 --> R3 = RC3
R3 --> R4 = RC4
R2 --> R5 = RC5
R1 --> R6 = RC6
RGT = RGT

Agree that it make it easier to understand for all?

[Mirek]

Do You plan among other things to rewrite all existing rules and make therefore even bigger mess than it is now because everything would be upside-down again?

[Sulland]

Do You plan among other things to rewrite all existing rules and make therefore even bigger mess than it is now because everything would be upside-down again?

Of course. But that is just a todo job in FIA Hq.
Search an replace, would not even take that long.

[Daniel Popov]

R4 should be in RC2 because N4, NR4 (Mitsubishi´s and Subaru´s) are there also with S2000 and R5

According to current rules and classes, yes, they should be in RC2. But that will kill it furthermore, as you can't even fight for class championship as well.
Okay, same story with the former N4's, but they are dying anyway.

Class naming is quite confusing, I agree. I think it will be best to remove the whole RC# thing and just leave it R5, R4, R3 etc. But I guess you can't make that change in the next few years, as there are still a lot of "old generation" cars that have a valid homologation and run.

R4 car - class RC2 and R2 car - class RC4...doesn't make any sense to anyone who is not that much into things.

[Franky]

R4 car - class RC2 and R2 car - class RC4...doesn't make any sense to anyone who is not that much into things.

Most likely those people don't even know anything about RC classes. So only annoys the people who actually know it and the awful logic behind it.

[dupanton]

Yes, R4 will be in RC2, so you can't even fight for class win...

RC1 = WRC, A8
RC2 = R5, R4, N4, S2000
RC3 = R3, A7, S1600
RC4 = R2, A6, A5, N3 (not sure about A5)
RC5 = R1, N2, N1

The old classes (N1-4 and A5-8) are also in the RC classes, although most of these cars have no valid homologation anymore.

[electroliquid]

R4 is (or meant to be) for those who couldn't afford R5, so there is ERC2, ERT2 and other lower tier championships/classes to fight for class win, or national championships fight for overall. no way that someone will use it in WRC for full program, only for selected events maybe. It is not for making wins in RC2 cheaper it is for making gap between R2/R3 and R5 smaller.

[Rally Power]

R4 is (or meant to be) for those who couldn't afford R5, so there is ERC2, ERT2 and other lower tier championships/classes to fight for class win, or national championships fight for overall. no way that someone will use it in WRC for full program, only for selected events maybe. It is not for making wins in RC2 cheaper it is for making gap between R2/R3 and R5 smaller.

Yep. There’s no problem for R4 to be integrated in RC2. At any time series organizers can promote specific title for them, like it has been done with Gr. N over the years.

[pantealex]

Yep. There’s no problem for R4 to be integrated in RC2. At any time series organizers can promote specific title for them, like it has been done with Gr. N over the years.

and national series can have different classes, like in Finland where we have 2 championship classes for 4wd cars.

[dimviii]

https://youtu.be/nOqKAGeDbp8

[Mirek]

Stéphane Sarrazin with Etios R4 on Rallye du Var: http://www.autosport.cz/clanek.php?cl=19381

[Mirek]

https://youtu.be/nOqKAGeDbp8

To me it looks like he was only cruising in the video.

[mArvAlcao17]

R4 analysis coming soon from David Evans

https://twitter.com/davidevansrally/status/926081276569903105

[Sulland]

How does the orderbook for kit look for Oreca?
Is it starting to fill, or is it still empty?

[Andre Oliveira]

For me, the most important thing of those cars (R4, N5, Proto,...) is the manufacturer side. A Ford with PSA engine? Where is the intelectual and comercial make ownership. When (if) a manufacter go to law to protest royalties... the case will be ugly. Those cars are cheap cause used hours and €€€ of research of that manufacters. I am against those travesty cars. All makes have comercial deals but after that.... what the point to PSA have winning car with Ford taking the goods? Or Ford having R5 and someone run one cheaper and low performer travesty Ford?

[Rally Power]

For me, the most important thing of those cars (R4, N5, Proto,...) is the manufacturer side. A Ford with PSA engine? Where is the intelectual and comercial make ownership. When (if) a manufacter go to law to protest royalties... the case will be ugly. Those cars are cheap cause used hours and €€€ of research of that manufacters. I am against those travesty cars. All makes have comercial deals but after that.... what the point to PSA have winning car with Ford taking the goods? Or Ford having R5 and someone run one cheaper and low performer travesty Ford?

Even in the car business is not rare to have manus getting engines or other main components from other manus and surely Oreca was authorized by PSA to tune EP’s engines and use them in R4.

Silhouette and mandatory kit categories are a common practice in motorsport and R5’s already use several common parts. Practical benefits from using a universal kit are huge and no one can deny there’s room for a light 4wd rally category in national or regional series.

The choice for a single supplier can still be questioned, but R4 looks to be a sensible move for the development of the sport; it makes rally brands and models field wider and provides a cheaper complement to current R5 cars.

Btw, most of drivers invited to test the car after Var rally were delighted; they say it feels like a small R5!

[mArvAlcao17]

For me, the most important thing of those cars (R4, N5, Proto,...) is the manufacturer side. A Ford with PSA engine? Where is the intelectual and comercial make ownership. When (if) a manufacter go to law to protest royalties... the case will be ugly. Those cars are cheap cause used hours and €€€ of research of that manufacters. I am against those travesty cars. All makes have comercial deals but after that.... what the point to PSA have winning car with Ford taking the goods? Or Ford having R5 and someone run one cheaper and low performer travesty Ford?

The manufacturers thing are already in R5, so let the car dealers/etc. take over that.

[RICARDO75]

Lukyanuk test with Suzuki Swift R+ (N5) with positive coments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvYfX8HAbIw&feature=em-uploademail

[Rally Power]

Clear win for Lukyanuk/Magalhães in Astorga Rally, on the Swift N5 gravel debut. Over 4m ahead Alonso Fiesta WRC and Diegez Impreza N+. Congrats to the winning crew and ARVidal Racing, the team behind N5 Suzuki project.

Results: http://cronorally.info/tiemposvelocidad/tramo.php?tr=06&cat=Todos#general

[drive]

clearly that is not R4 car, more R5+ :) anyhow, would be interesting to know more about specs of this suzuki, like price if its would be available. as for performance side - we will get some info from Lucky shortly on his facebook
As I understand this swift uses more subaru internals with suzuki engine, as polish build 'protos' are made with mitsu transmision/engine- could be interesting for some regional championships!

[Sulland]

Lycky said from the test; good egngine, but underbody far from R5. Car cool to drive.
That test was on asfalt, not sure what he said after gravel experience.

[Mirek]

Guys, can you create a new thread for cars like this one? They are not R4 and therefore are off topic here. In fact they are off topic even in ERC section because they are not homologated internationally.

[Rally Power]

clearly that is not R4 car, more R5+ :) anyhow, would be interesting to know more about specs of this suzuki, like price if its would be available. as for performance side - we will get some info from Lucky shortly on his facebook
As I understand this swift uses more subaru internals with suzuki engine, as polish build 'protos' are made with mitsu transmision/engine- could be interesting for some regional championships!

Yep, N5 isn’t R4, still it’s pretty close to it and both are a step down to R5 (using your analogy, they’re R5- not R5+). N5 is Spanish version of Argentina Maxi Rally and R4 uses their concept: silhouette cars with common mechanical kit. N5 also gets a light tuned PSA EP engine, although using a 34mm restrictor (33 for R4). N5 transmission is based on the Impreza, while R4 has gearbox and diffs similar to R5.

On this year Spanish tarmac events, N5 top drivers were most of the time behind R5 crews, but on gravel series Suarez (RMC 208 N5) was able to match the competition and win the series (his talent surely helped). Suzuki, through ARVidal, has been using the N5 Swift for two seasons and Renault, with RMC, entered the Clio N5 this year but is planning to replace it by a R4 Clio next year, as it’s believed R4 cars will be slightly more competitive (and expensive) than current N5.

[Andre Oliveira]

In portuguese regulations, R4 under RC2 category.

[mArvAlcao17]

Good news from my country:

Indonesian Motor Association recently allowed AP4 rally cars to compete in M.1 class at Indonesian Rally & Sprint Rally Championship.

For sure the interest towards R4 are getting less & less likely

[RICARDO75]

Toyota Yaris R4 to compete in Poland by Evolve Motorsport

[Jarek Z]

Yes, Toyota Yaris R4 with Oreca’s R4 kit is being built by Evolve Motorsport in Warsaw. They say the price of the Yaris R4 is 20% lower than any R5 car and the running costs are up to 40% lower. The car is going to make its debut in the first half of 2018. More about it here:
http://www.evolve-motorsport.com/yarisr4evolve/

[racerx1979]

Very cool. Evolve Motorsport seems to be doing some top notch work. The chassis work is great and the proto style cars they have are also very good. The chassis layout is a step above the Dytko proto cars.

[br21]

Evolve press release is more dreaming than reality. For sure not such car in first half of 2018.

[Rally Power]

Yes, Toyota Yaris R4 with Oreca’s R4 kit is being built by Evolve Motorsport in Warsaw. More about it here:http://www.evolve-motorsport.com/yarisr4evolve/

The Evolve Yaris looks great!

One of the positive things of R4 is allowing private tuners to be more involved in rallying; through them new brands and models will hit the stages. Since Gr.R introduction the sport has lived under the monopoly of manus official tuners, shrinking rally cars diversity and inflating their prices; it’s time for a change and R4 can be the start of it. Fingers crossed!

[Mirek]

One of the positive things of R4 is allowing private tuners to be more involved in rallying; through them new brands and models will hit the stages. Since Gr.R introduction the sport has lived under the monopoly of manus official tuners, shrinking rally cars diversity and inflating their prices; it’s time for a change and R4 can be the start of it. Fingers crossed!

There were only two manufacturers involved in N4 which was the top class before introducing S2000 class. There were nine manufacturers in S2000 class (some only minor) and now there are five R5 manufacturers with two more coming in 2018. How is that shrinking diversity?

The prices of S2000 were indeed much higher than N4 but compared to the price level at S2000 popularity peek the R5 prices of today are reasonably lower (despite being naturally still way higher than N4). The fact is that there has been no inflation of prices in last couple of years at the top regional level. The costs were highest at around year 2011 not now.

[Rally Power]

There were only two manufacturers involved in N4 which was the top class before introducing S2000 class. There were nine manufacturers in S2000 class (some only minor) and now there are five R5 manufacturers with two more coming in 2018. How is that shrinking diversity?
The prices of S2000 were indeed much higher than N4 but compared to the price level at S2000 popularity peek the R5 prices of today are reasonably lower (despite being naturally still way higher than N4). The fact is that there has been no inflation of prices in last couple of years at the top regional level. The costs were highest at around year 2011 not now.

You’re mentioning a very specific case, when N4 homologations become rare, but the sport was always much more than a specific case. The difference of available models homologated in Gr.N/A (from N1 to A8) in any time of the 80’s or 90’s (or previously during Gr.1 to 4 era) and those currently homologated in R1, R2, R3 or R5 is gigantic and cannot be denied. Many of those times homologations were developed by private tuners, with manus permission.

Having more rally models and brands available is a progress and there should be room for private tuners alongside manus motorsport divisions. That’s what R4 is bringing back.

[Mirek]

Sorry but there is no sense in looking 30 years or more back. Everything is completely different now starting from the very simple fact that in those days there were plenty of independent relatively small manufacturers whereas today they are nearly all joined in several gigantic corporations.

In that regard 9 S2000 manufacturers and 7 R5 manufacturers is huge success and it helps nothing to claim the opposite. To make things better You have to see what is good and what works not dreaming about something which was thirty years a go.

[TheFlyingTuga]

Sorry but there is no sense in looking 30 years or more back. Everything is completely different now starting from the very simple fact that in those days there were plenty of independent relatively small manufacturers whereas today they are nearly all joined in several gigantic corporations.

In that regard 9 S2000 manufacturers and 7 R5 manufacturers is huge success and it helps nothing to claim the opposite. To make things better You have to see what is good and what works not dreaming about something which was thirty years a go.

The only thing I found a bit stupid in this is that for swap an "Oreca engine" into a car FIA says it's alright, but if you do everything by the book using manufacter parts and engine, FIA says you cannot homologate without the Manufacter permission (i.e. Opel and Mitsubishi).

We had 11 different manufacters in S2000, even if only 3/4 of them were any good, and we could had 10 manufacters or cars at least in R5 now if not for this stupid rule!

[Mirek]

The only thing I found a bit stupid in this is that for swap an "Oreca engine" into a car FIA says it's alright, but if you do everything by the book using manufacter parts and engine, FIA says you cannot homologate without the Manufacter permission (i.e. Opel and Mitsubishi).

You mix two different categories which were created in different time (approximately 5 years between introduction of both classes). It's not fair to mix conditions in one sentence ;)


We had 11 different manufacters in S2000, even if only 3/4 of them were any good, and we could had 10 manufacters or cars at least in R5 now if not for this stupid rule!

Thanks for correction but which 11? Abarth, Peugeot, Škoda, Ford, Citroën (RRC), Proton, VW, Toyota, Opel, MG and 11th?

[PLuto]

Thanks for correction but which 11? Abarth, Peugeot, Škoda, Ford, Citroën (RRC), Proton, VW, Toyota, Opel, MG and 11th?

If you are counting also RRC, in that case you forgot Mini.

[Rally Power]

Sorry but there is no sense in looking 30 years or more back. Everything is completely different now starting from the very simple fact that in those days there were plenty of independent relatively small manufacturers whereas today they are nearly all joined in several gigantic corporations.
In that regard 9 S2000 manufacturers and 7 R5 manufacturers is huge success and it helps nothing to claim the opposite. To make things better You have to see what is good and what works not dreaming about something which was thirty years a go.

We can always learn from the past, mate. R5 is a success and that’s great for the sport but N4 wasn’t properly replaced, R1 and R3 have failed and R2 is stagnated. Currently there are fewer models available in the combined R1/R2/R3 range than in R5; that’s a clear sign of how a manu centered regulation isn’t adjusted to the sport reality.

Besides, despite all the global changes in the car market, current rally manus (with Hyundai’s exception) were already involved in the sport from a long time, meaning rally hasn’t been able to attract new brands.

With R5 prices inevitably going through the roof (how much will a full spec Polo cost?), there’s room for a lower budget 4wd category like R4, provided by private tuners with privateers costumers in mind. A light R2 class is also needed, probably using R4 concept: private tuners developed silhouette cars, using mandatory kits.

As top teams and drivers will always use top rally cars, having lower budget classes available won’t hurt the sport, on the contrary, it’ll allow more privateers to get in and run alongside top competitors; clearly, a win-win situation.

[mArvAlcao17]

A light R2 class is also needed, probably using R4 concept: private tuners developed silhouette cars, using mandatory kits.

A spec R2 isn't a good option either tbh, what i want is lower tech like removal of sequential shift

[TheFlyingTuga]

You mix two different categories which were created in different time (approximately 5 years between introduction of both classes). It's not fair to mix conditions in one sentence ;)

Yeah, I know that, but wouldn't it be easier to allow small racing shops to try their hand at the R5 class as well? And some other R class



Thanks for correction but which 11? Abarth, Peugeot, Škoda, Ford, Citroën (RRC), Proton, VW, Toyota, Opel, MG and 11th?

My bad, I meant 10 cars, not counting the RRC (at least the Mini is accounted in Wikipedia as a S2000 Car) but counting the Lada 112 Vk S2000, that as far as I know had FIA papers, but never raced outside of Russia.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Little bit OOT, but what's the differences between Dytko's Proto with Evolve's..?

That Yaris looks good..

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[racerx1979]

A spec R2 isn't a good option either tbh, what i want is lower tech like removal of sequential shift

That is what the R1 class does. Search for R1 MSport Fiesta. No sequential. Not even sure if it is a dogbox...

[Mirek]

A spec R2 isn't a good option either tbh, what i want is lower tech like removal of sequential shift

What's wrong with sequential gearbox? It's very reliable solution. Even cheap Adam cup cars have sequential gearbox and the concept works great. For me Adam cup cars are a great example how it can be done.

[Mirek]

Yeah, I know that, but wouldn't it be easier to allow small racing shops to try their hand at the R5 class as well? And some other R class

My bad, I meant 10 cars, not counting the RRC (at least the Mini is accounted in Wikipedia as a S2000 Car) but counting the Lada 112 Vk S2000, that as far as I know had FIA papers, but never raced outside of Russia.

Privateers stand no chance against works teams anyway so I don't think that allowing private homologations in R5 would lead to any success. Maximum what can be achieved is few exotic slow cars which disappear after several outings. The top level is too hard battleground.

I think that Lada was never FIA homologated but You and Pluto are right that Mini was the eleventh homologated S2000.

[mArvAlcao17]

What's wrong with sequential gearbox? It's very reliable solution. Even cheap Adam cup cars have sequential gearbox and the concept works great. For me Adam cup cars are a great example how it can be done.

It's still not cheap at here, unfortunately. Malaysia too (excluding UK-built Protons).

[Sulland]

What's wrong with sequential gearbox? It's very reliable solution. Even cheap Adam cup cars have sequential gearbox and the concept works great. For me Adam cup cars are a great example how it can be done.

For me the most amazing thing is that street cars are still delivered with H gearbox, and that not all new cars with manual come with sequential boxes.
There should be enough knowhow from the motorcycle industry.

[Mirek]

For me the most amazing thing is that street cars are still delivered with H gearbox, and that not all new cars with manual come with sequential boxes.
There should be enough knowhow from the motorcycle industry.

No street car comes with real sequential gearbox. They have sometimes sequential shifting but with completely different mechanics. The reason for using H-pattern gearboxes is that there are simply completely different priorities - comfort, noise, no maintanence, price etc.

However the reason why it's good that Adam Cup cars have sequential gearbox are numerous. Young drivers need to learn how to drive with it because all bigger and faster rally cars (except dying out gr.N) have it as well. There is no benefit for them in using H-pattern shifting. Also the gearbox is extremely reliable and easy to maintain.

[Zeakiwi]

Proper aftermarket sequential transmissions (aftermarket flat shift engine cuts etc) are put in 'street' cars, pfitzner australia sequential in r32 gtr. a bit less noise than some race sequential gear sets. https://youtu.be/I2nyFmkSnuc (transmission probably cost a lot though)

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

I wonder if some of R5 cars will have the R4 counterparts.

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[Sulland]

Have FIA after evaluating the kit at Oreca, approved the kit yet?

[AdvEvo]

They can bin the R4 kit to expensive it s no replacement for Group N prices.

[racerx1979]

Don’t think R4 will catch on anytime soon. Too pricey

[Gordini]

Is kit homologated now?

[aykutbilir]

Is kit homologated now?

Yes it is


Tapatalk kullanarak iPhone araclyla gönderildi

[Sulland]

Is Tommi skipping the R5 due to lack of good engine base, and plan to go R4 in the meantime?
has he been working with Oreca, or was it a coincidence that the test car was a Toyota?

[mArvAlcao17]

Is Tommi skipping the R5 due to lack of good engine base, and plan to go R4 in the meantime?
has he been working with Oreca, or was it a coincidence that the test car was a Toyota?

it's purely coincidence. He ofc prefer Yaris R5, if that's gonna happen

[Mirek]

Tommi himself said there was no engine in Toyota portfolio to build the R5 one from.

[pantealex]

Is Tommi skipping the R5 due to lack of good engine base, and plan to go R4 in the meantime?
has he been working with Oreca, or was it a coincidence that the test car was a Toyota?

Toyota Etios is not on sale in Europe, so nothing to do with TGR or TMG either.

[OldF]

The first R4 kit in Latin America but is it the first one also worldwide?

https://www.oreca.com/en/news_oreca/fia-r4-kit-confirmed-argentina/

[Sulland]

Toyota Etios is not on sale in Europe, so nothing to do with TGR or TMG either.

But if Toyota wants to they could task TMR to make a Yaris R4. For most people watching it would be a Toyota anyway.
He would build another R4 building on the farm, or in Estland, that also has good rally traditions.

[Mirek]

But if Toyota wants to they could task TMR to make a Yaris R4. For most people watching it would be a Toyota anyway.
He would build another R4 building on the farm, or in Estland, that also has good rally traditions.

Toyota wants its name to be seen as successful one. They'd better wait a bit to see if there is any potential in R4. Otherwise it would be just a negative PR for a lot of money spent.

[Rally Power]

The first R4 kit in Latin America but is it the first one also worldwide?
https://www.oreca.com/en/news_oreca/fia-r4-kit-confirmed-argentina/

It was told some time ago that first order was made by Spanish tuner RMC, on behalf of Renault Spain; it’s their intention to enter local series with 2 Clio R4.

[pantealex]

But if Toyota wants to they could task TMR to make a Yaris R4. For most people watching it would be a Toyota anyway.
He would build another R4 building on the farm, or in Estland, that also has good rally traditions.

TGR has over 80 different Toyota´s in- and outside their facilities, they have studied all possible combinations. Now it seems that R2 is next one.

[Sulland]

Have they started a R2 project?

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Can anyone imagine Etios R4 sedan..?

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[Sulland]

https://www.oreca.com/constructeur/#fia-r4

Looking at the Oreca webpage, i find it only in french. Due to a pre-set browser that automatically translates I can read about their rally project, under racing.

the pdf explaining and trying to sell it, looks fine, but I can only find it in french, and google translate says it is too large to translate...
https://www.oreca.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ORECA_Plaquette_R4_New_FR_BD_Planches.compressed.p df

If I am correct in that all are in french, that is special, in it being a FIA project.

My take is that they need to have Rally easy to find on the front page, not under builder, or racing.
All regarding R4 need to be in english
Do not call it a reasonabel price, it is not.

Build a few on speculation, and use Sarrazin and one more driver in WRC and ERC to show the potential. Rent two of them out cheap to whoever want to test it.

If not it could be a stillborn!

[racerx1979]

The Baratec kits are extremely expensive. I do not see their 1600T setup being any cheaper than the R4 kits from Oreca. Bring back Group N in using Focus RS and Subaru WRX STI's

[PLuto]

https://www.oreca.com/constructeur/#fia-r4

Looking at the Oreca webpage, i find it only in french. Due to a pre-set browser that automatically translates I can read about their rally project, under racing.

the pdf explaining and trying to sell it, looks fine, but I can only find it in french, and google translate says it is too large to translate...
https://www.oreca.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ORECA_Plaquette_R4_New_FR_BD_Planches.compressed.p df

If I am correct in that all are in french, that is special, in it being a FIA project.

My take is that they need to have Rally easy to find on the front page, not under builder, or racing.
All regarding R4 need to be in english
Do not call it a reasonabel price, it is not.

Build a few on speculation, and use Sarrazin and one more driver in WRC and ERC to show the potential. Rent two of them out cheap to whoever want to test it.

If not it could be a stillborn!

Sorry, it is not so difficult to find it in english...

https://www.oreca.com/en/manufacturer/#fia-r4

https://www.oreca.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ORECA_Plaquette_R4_New_EN_BD_Planches.compressed.p df

[mArvAlcao17]

The Baratec kits are extremely expensive. I do not see their 1600T setup being any cheaper than the R4 kits from Oreca. Bring back Group N in using Focus RS and Subaru WRX STI's

how much the cost? I'm a bit curious

[Rally Power]

The Baratec kits are extremely expensive. I do not see their 1600T setup being any cheaper than the R4 kits from Oreca. Bring back Group N in using Focus RS and Subaru WRX STI's

Spanish tuner RMC is selling full N5 cars (based on Baratec 1.6T MR’s) below R4 cars announced price. R4 tech concept is interesting and useful for the sport, but the main problem is to have a single supplier worldwide. It’d make more sense to implement an international regulation for the category and allow national tuners to build the cars according to those rules (a bit like AP4).

[Sulland]

Is it known how many cars are buildt to date?

[pantealex]

Is it known how many cars are buildt to date?

Oren only sells KIT´s, every team does building themselves. I don´t know how many KIT´s have been sold.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

No progress from Dytko's Micra & Evolve's Yaris..?

And Evolve to makes Mini R4..

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[Sulland]

Oren only sells KIT´s, every team does building themselves. I don´t know how many KIT´s have been sold.

Oreca bid for the contract to make money.
To start off they need to demonstrate it, in several ERC or WRC events, to prove it is worth the money, and has stamina to reach the finish.

If not, they will sell very few I am afraid.

[AdvEvo]

Oreca bid for the contract to make money.
To start off they need to demonstrate it, in several ERC or WRC events, to prove it is worth the money, and has stamina to reach the finish.

If not, they will sell very few I am afraid.


R4 Kit

It is the wrong way for new 4wd cars. To expensive i am afraid.

We need 4wd group N cars back!

Factory cars with some adjustments to make them ready for Rallying. This must be done for normal money.

[Sulland]

R4 Kit

It is the wrong way for new 4wd cars. To expensive i am afraid.

We need 4wd group N cars back!

Factory cars with some adjustments to make them ready for Rallying. This must be done for normal money.

Agree, but I would take a R3t and let privat tuners make a 4WD system after certain specs.

[Mirek]

We need 4wd group N cars back!

Nice but how about to be realistic? This will not happen and it's not a fault of FIA. Gr.N is dead by the development in automotive and society. Get used to that.

[Mirek]

Agree, but I would take a R3t and let privat tuners make a 4WD system after certain specs.

How is that going to be cheaper than R4 and how is that better when there is only one up-to-date R3T car (Clio ; the DS3 is a model at the end of its lifecycle)?

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Does Oreca have a plan to running Etios R4 in some events..?

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[Rally Power]

No news from Oreca since December. Was the R4 kit actually homologated?

[TWRC]

In Hungary there will supposedly be a Mitsubishi Mirage R4. Whether that is true or not I am skeptical, as the car looks like a Mirage R5, but here are pictures of the car: https://www.facebook.com/LATYAK.racing/posts/222721714946463

[Mirek]

They can use existing exterior parts of the R5 if those don't violate the R4 regs.

[Sulland]

Oreca does not seem to be eager to push this to the market.

It might just be a kit, but they need to demonstrate to potential buyers the speed and handeling this will give them, instead of a used R5. The maintenence cost is hard to demonstrate, so we only have to take their word for that.

If they are not prepared to build a few cars and show them off in different rallies, this FIA project will never be more than a paper tiger!

[RICARDO75]

In Hungary there will supposedly be a Mitsubishi Mirage R4. Whether that is true or not I am skeptical, as the car looks like a Mirage R5, but here are pictures of the car: https://www.facebook.com/LATYAK.racing/posts/222721714946463

Mirage Proto from Dytko Sport

[MartijnS]

Jim vd Heuvel has driven a proto Fiesta in the Netherlands last weekend. Finally permission from autosport council to start.
Evo engine with Fiesta body.

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30716706_1739370476106338_8119203414694428672_o.jp g?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=v1%3AAeENrmxk_S4UE4fpig7mW947oyaaxSV4MG9m mV3mzmxOCEH3LcAv9v1CzWjn-Hk-fOetYfvhqgEGH1FPDlS2gcm4Qk1Sdk0U319cysDCU99y5A&oh=d537d8aee9cd66573054ed6a0624ae9d&oe=5B64C6E7

Became second after Jasper vd Heuvel with a Fiesta R5. Losing about a minute on 55 min total on speed.

[AdvEvo]

Proto has no Future and it is a big mistake to let these cars compete.

First of all to close to R5. So R5 drivers are not happy about it and will maybe pass dutch events.

Second. Evo s are out of production so parts for the Proto wil be in later stadium hard to get.

Third The dutch RDW MOT station will never approve a car which is made from 2 cars into one.


You buy an R5 of you buy the fia R4 kit. If you want a good 4wd car.

I know it s all to expensive but manufactures make no group N cars anymore. I wish it was different.

[Rally Power]

Proto has no Future and it is a big mistake to let these cars compete.
First of all to close to R5. So R5 drivers are not happy about it and will maybe pass dutch events.
Second. Evo s are out of production so parts for the Proto wil be in later stadium hard to get.
Third The dutch RDW MOT station will never approve a car which is made from 2 cars into one.
You buy an R5 of you buy the fia R4 kit. If you want a good 4wd car.
I know it s all to expensive but manufactures make no group N cars anymore. I wish it was different.

Doesn’t the Fabia R5 use a Chinese VW engine block? No idea about Dutch MOT rules, but if local protos aren’t permitted to get engines from other brands, what will happen to R4 cars?

Honestly, it’s hard to understand why some people don’t like these privatelly tuned protos based on the Evo, the Impreza or any other brand stock parts.

For amateur drivers they’re a reasonable option to the old Gr.N machines and they also allow new manus to get involved at rally, through their importers or dealers.

ASN’s promoting these protos as a 4wd entry class are doing the job the FIA should have done a long time ago; we’re still waiting for the R4 cars debut, even knowing their prices won’t be cheap.

Btw, Dytko has now become a partner of Spanish tuner ARVidal on the new Swift N5 development: https://rallyes.info/noticias/pawel-dytko-ayudo-a-arvidal-en-la-preparacion-del-swift-r/
http://staticv2.revistascratch.com//images/noticia/suzuki-presenta-su-nuevo-swift-r-n5_full.jpg

[Ricardo Filipe Matos]

I think these R4-kits could be 2wd.

[Mirek]

I think these R4-kits could be 2wd.

Why?

[Mirek]

Doesn’t the Fabia R5 use a Chinese VW engine block?

The block is normally used by Škoda China (Škoda produces cars also in China). Moreover it's just localized variant of the same Audi-developed engine (EA888) used by all VAG brands (the stock engine itself was far from being reliable and maybe the Chinese variant has some critical issues fixed). That's very different case than using Mitsubishi/Hyundai engine in Ford competitive car.

[Rally Power]

This one will probably give a heart attack to the orthodox FIA rules defenders…José Maria Ponce (several times Canarias rally champion) will use for the second time at the Rally Islas Canarias a JTR Seat 600 Proto; a tinny tubular car with the shape of the iconic Fiat/Seat 600 and a Hayabusa engine.

https://www.motor2000.net/contenidos/noticias/11859/JMPonce.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgPjTu_5cuM

With such a rich rally record and on such a respectful age, it’s fantastic to see this great champ embracing a project developed by amateurs, with the same passion and commitment as on his top rally years; hats off for him!

[pantealex]

There is seperate thread for those Proto/Dytko/selfbuilt/R-Lite etc. cars

Please use it and let´s keep this one only R4

Makes things way more easier, because many people don´t know diffrence between R4 and those others.

[Rally Power]

Relax mate, no one will confuse that tinny 600 with an R4...

[Sulland]

Anyone knows if any Oreca based R4 cars have been testing or competing yet?

It is very quiet on the website of Oreca on this topic. Looks like they are not that interested in getting this class kicked off, and to prove it has a place for national and regional series.

Anyone here that know if the kit sold to Argentina have been used yet?

Have Evolve put together a Yaris testcar, that is possible to rent?
http://www.evolve-motorsport.com/yarisr4evolve/

[br21]

No R4 kits running anywhere for the moment.
Evolve didn't build any car.

[Rally Power]

Not sure if this is the first R4 kit Oreca has sold, but apparently there’s a team in Argentina building an Etios R4 to debut at the Codasur series: http://rccompeticionteam.com/2018/05/25/1933/

Btw, Renault Spain has cancelled the order for 2 kits and ended their rally programme (started last year with a N5 Clio provided by RMC).

[Sulland]

If Toyota does not have a suiteable engine for R5 (strange), the kit for R4 could open a market for them as an option national series.
But, pricing of such a car will be essensial.

Gazoo are building a bridgehead in the Baltics, maybe a R4 shop could be integrated.
It is a market opportunity up for grabs, if they find a ok price.

No one else seems to care about this car class.
If Tommi tells Oreca "I buy 50 kits, what price can you give me"?

could be a kick start.

If nothing happens in 2019, FIA needs to kill it off, as they did with S2000 and N4, and go back to the R4 drawing board, and put a max price before they invite.
IMO 60-70 000€ is max if they want to get volumes into the rally world.

[mArvAlcao17]

If Toyota does not have a suiteable engine for R5 (strange), the kit for R4 could open a market for them as an option national series.
But, pricing of such a car will be essensial.

Gazoo are building a bridgehead in the Baltics, maybe a R4 shop could be integrated.
It is a market opportunity up for grabs, if they find a ok price.

No one else seems to care about this car class.
If Tommi tells Oreca "I buy 50 kits, what price can you give me"?

could be a kick start.

If nothing happens in 2019, FIA needs to kill it off, as they did with S2000 and N4, and go back to the R4 drawing board, and put a max price before they invite.
IMO 60-70 000€ is max if they want to get volumes into the rally world.

Basically it's a difficult situation as there are already some similiar spec in some regions like AP4 in asia pacific or Maxi Rally in South America, or N5 in Spain.

Also to be considered that FIA R4 is basically a single-spec

[Rally Power]

Finally, some news from Oreca; the R4 kit is homologated since April 1 and a few units have been already sold to different tuners.
https://www.oreca.com/en/news_oreca/r4-kit-officially-homologated-fia-now-eligible/
https://www.facebook.com/OrecaStore

Oreca is also announcing a price cut on the kit, costing now €85.000. This reduction makes sense if we realize the kit isn’t a full kit (roll cage, dampers, springs, electrical, interior, etc, not included).
https://www.oreca.com/en/news_oreca/sale-price-revised-relation-cost-cap/

https://www.oreca.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/IMG_4568.jpg
R4 Kit parts; photo: Oreca

[pantealex]

85.000€ for those stuff in picture ?
Pure robbery :(

[Tarmop]

Another class born dead...

[dupanton]

85.000€ for those stuff in picture ?
Pure robbery :(

Is it? I'm not really aware about motorsport prices. Could someone give me an estimate for the cost of such an engine? Gearbox? Differentials? I know axles like that cost quickly a couple of 1000 euros each. Fueltank will be expensive too.

But again, not sure about usual prices for the more complex parts.

[Tarmop]

Is it? I'm not really aware about motorsport prices. Could someone give me an estimate for the cost of such an engine? Gearbox? Differentials? I know axles like that cost quickly a couple of 1000 euros each. Fueltank will be expensive too.

But again, not sure about usual prices for the more complex parts.

In such a low-scale production things are definitely more expensive, but there seems to be too much air in that price. They did not invent a bicycle...i`m not even sure if they designed new parts entirely or just borrowed from some production cars. Engine was PSA`s i believe? Add the price of a donor car ( lets say, it`s brand new from the dealership), rebuilding it, good suspension and the price is ~150k. Quite hard to find clients from hobby-drivers in national championships or developing young drivers, who need to be minimally in a R5 to show themselves.

[Sulland]

Oreca slashed 20% off the FIA kit price. They could probably have taken 40% off and still have numbers well into the blues.

Lets do an example n how it could be done on a budget.

A used Ford Fiesta Mk7 can be bought for 5000€.
A bodyshop tuner can easily make changes to the body to take onboard the Oreca kit. Maybe 10-15 000€
Then we have the suspension. Not sure how much a set of 3 way Reigers as used on the R2 cost, maybe 8-10 000€.
4wd system after strict FIA rules, fully passive, and simple.

Had we continued down the road of using a tuning firm, and letting them building the car ready to eat an spec engine from Oreca.
Maybe a car could be had for 50-60 000€.
This is done in rallycross all the time, and keeps prices down. You need to keep local tuners alive!

R4 should be a class for talent development in private teams that want to drive a 4wd on a budget. Let the factory people have R5 as their playground.

[Tarmop]

Oreca slashed 20% off the FIA kit price. They could probably have taken 40% off and still have numbers well into the blues.

Lets do an example n how it could be done on a budget.

A used Ford Fiesta Mk7 can be bought for 5000€.
A bodyshop tuner can easily make changes to the body to take onboard the Oreca kit. Maybe 10-15 000€
Then we have the suspension. Not sure how much a set of 3 way Reigers as used on the R2 cost, maybe 8-10 000€.
4wd system after strict FIA rules, fully passive, and simple.

Had we continued down the road of using a tuning firm, and letting them building the car ready to eat an spec engine from Oreca.
Maybe a car could be had for 50-60 000€.
This is done in rallycross all the time, and keeps prices down. You need to keep local tuners alive!

R4 should be a class for talent development in private teams that want to drive a 4wd on a budget. Let the factory people have R5 as their playground.

In theory. In practice that rebuilt chassis would have quite a bit light details and the price will double. FWD suspension is also another world.

[Rally Power]

Lets do an example n how it could be done on a budget.
A used Ford Fiesta Mk7 can be bought for 5000€.
A bodyshop tuner can easily make changes to the body to take onboard the Oreca kit. Maybe 10-15 000€
Then we have the suspension. Not sure how much a set of 3 way Reigers as used on the R2 cost, maybe 8-10 000€.
4wd system after strict FIA rules, fully passive, and simple.
Had we continued down the road of using a tuning firm, and letting them building the car ready to eat an spec engine from Oreca.
Maybe a car could be had for 50-60 000€.

Honestly, a 4wd rally car supposed to run in national and international rally series for what costs now a R2 sounds totally unrealistic...besides, 8 or 10 years ago you couldn’t buy a top N4 for less than 120.000€ and a new R4 Evo or Impreza were costing quite more than that.

The price cut on Oreca kit is a positive move and if national tuners offer their final models for 150.000€ (still 100.000€ less than a R5) there would be a market for R4, especially if importers and dealers from brands currently not involved in rally see it as a chance to get into the sport.

R4 is having a slow birth; let's hope it'll eventually succeed!

[Tarmop]

Honestly, a 4wd rally car supposed to run in national and international rally series for what costs now a R2 sounds totally unrealistic...besides, 8 or 10 years ago you couldn’t buy a top N4 for less than 120.000€ and a new R4 Evo or Impreza were costing quite more than that.

The price cut on Oreca kit is a positive move and if national tuners offer their final models for 150.000€ (still 100.000€ less than a R5) there would be a market for R4, especially if importers and dealers from brands currently not involved in rally see it as a chance to get into the sport.

R4 is having a slow birth; let's hope it'll eventually succeed!


Except that N4 was hugely popular. It was a car you could buy from a dealership, get groceries, go to work, practice in clubman events in the weekends, before gradually turning it into a high spec (or not so high spec) . N4, with what you could tackle RC2 and compete for the overall victory in local championships, atleast against several competitors in your class. None of that is possible with a R4.

[Rally Power]

Except that N4 was hugely popular. It was a car you could buy from a dealership, get groceries, go to work, practice in clubman events in the weekends, before gradually turning (or not so high spec) it into a high spec. N4, with what you could tackle RC2 and compete for the overall victory in local championships, atleast against several competitors in your class. None of that is possible with an R4.

Come on, how many rally N4’s were also used as every day cars, even low spec ones?

R4 is a good concept and besides allowing private tuners to get an important role (they’re the cars builders) it also allows brands unable to develop R5 or WRC programs to be involved in rally, through their importers and dealers.

Having a single supplier for the kit wasn’t a smart move, but there’s room for this new category both national and internationally, once the cars are cheap to maintain and cost a fraction of current 4wd rally cars.

If private tuners get massively into it and start competing to take costumers choice, R4 can become a success and help to develop the sport. Fingers crossed!

[pantealex]

Problem for N4 (and old R4) was/is that there is only 2 brands Mitsu and Subaru. Others were also homologated but 99,9% did choose 2.

[Mirek]

Exactly and now when there is nothing left in the stock production (even Impreza is about to end soon) there is no use of talking about gr.N. It's just a past, nothing more.

[Zeakiwi]

The new Subaru wrx is likely to come in 2020. Stick transmission and 2.4 liter engine? But the 'long' wheelbase chassis might be not so favourable for people hoping for the front of topline rally competition.
https://www.auto123.com/en/news/2020-Subaru-WRX-STI-Manual-Transmission/64537/

Think I still like the hatchback subaru - it has been a good relatively affordable car for a number of nz competitors to run.
e.g nz dad and son competitors having a go in targa.
https://www.facebook.com/TargaNZ/videos/1782177591868290/

As above in this thread list - mazda 2 2015 shares the all wheel drive compact suv platform so has the shaft to rear diff tunnel there already. reduces a bit work for a oreca r4 type conversion.

The ap4 nz toyota yaris is listed at $220 000 and a few other costs are mentioned in this article. https://rallysportmag.com/r5-vs-ap4-vs-prc-does-it-really-just-come-down-to-dollars/

[skarderud]

If this new "R3" class going to happen, what happens to the R4 kit, and what kind of rules is possible?
I really hopes FIA give this a real chance, not strangle it before it even start.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[Rally Power]

If this new "R3" class going to happen, what happens to the R4 kit, and what kind of rules is possible?
I really hopes FIA give this a real chance, not strangle it before it even start.
Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

It's hard to believe that the FIA will bin the R4 Kit. For now there's just that info on Rally Magazin, which seems too vague.

[AnttiL]

It's hard to believe that the FIA will bin the R4 Kit. For now there's just that info on Rally Magazin, which seems too vague.

I thought just the numbering would change. From R4 to R3

[Jarek Z]

Milano Racing and Oreca are building a new rally car - Fiat 500X R4 (sorry, both articles in French):
https://www.autohebdo.fr/autres-courses/rallye-france/actualites/milano-racing-lance-la-mr-500x-r4-197204.html
https://www.rallye-sport.fr/une-premiere-r4-pour-la-france/

[Rally Power]

As jbmarcus indicated on another thread, there’s a PR in English: https://www.oreca.com/en/news_oreca/fia-r4-kit-oreca-milano-racing-kick-off-first-collaboration-france/

https://www.oreca.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/MX500R4_V2_FINAL_003_i3_i3-3-1024x640.jpg

On their fb page, Milano Racing is also saying they’re willing to enter the MR 500X R4 in next year ERC.

It’s great to know R4 is still alive; best luck to Milano Racing and their 500X.

[Sulland]

As I see it, its a good thing that someone dares to go in front and build a car or two, so we can see the R4 kit in action, and then make up our opinion.
So far we have only made comments based on cost and what we believe.

[steve.mandzij]

As jbmarcus indicated on another thread, there’s a PR in English: https://www.oreca.com/en/news_oreca/fia-r4-kit-oreca-milano-racing-kick-off-first-collaboration-france/

https://www.oreca.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/MX500R4_V2_FINAL_003_i3_i3-3-1024x640.jpg

On their fb page, Milano Racing is also saying they’re willing to enter the MR 500X R4 in next year ERC.

It’s great to know R4 is still alive; best luck to Milano Racing and their 500X.Compact crossovers are lovely cars to see rally. In America there's a Nissan Juke competing in the open class of many rallies, and it's pretty cool looking, not to mention it doesn't for a moment look ill proportioned.

[Mirek]

Forme it is ill proportioned. It's way too high.

[pantealex]

Forme it is ill proportioned. It's way too high.

Is it higher than quite good Suzuki Ignis S1600 was ?

(I know different era and different car type)

Looks very high to me too.

[focus206]

It does look high (and quite ugly).
I read that road 500X is 4 cm higher than road Mini Countryman.

[Ricardo Filipe Matos]

Is a good new for future of the R4-Kits Cars. Abarth 124 or Tipo would betters but good luck for the project.

[Jarek Z]

Compact crossovers are lovely cars to see rally. In America there's a Nissan Juke competing in the open class of many rallies, and it's pretty cool looking, not to mention it doesn't for a moment look ill proportioned.

What is so levely about compact crossovers? Are they not ugly?

[steve.mandzij]

What is so levely about compact crossovers? Are they not ugly?Most of the time they're just chunky hatchbacks, and for all the hate they get some aren't ugly at all, like the 500X and Juke

[Franky]

Most of the time they're just chunky hatchbacks, and for all the hate they get some aren't ugly at all, like the 500X and Juke

I think you'll find quite a big number of people who think the complete opposite than you of Juke.

[mArvAlcao17]

Maybe not (really) related to FIA R4, but this one relates to AP4, another alternative to R5, and this made me surprised.

There are some rumours in Indonesian rallying that one - estabilshed - rally teams are designing Mitsubishi Xpander AP4, which the base comes from the MPV car itself.

Previously they planned to build Mazda 2 AP4 after their visit to Australia/NZ, but it didn't happen because their ties with Mitsubishi

https://autonetmagz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Xpander-modifikasi-modif-rally-look.jpg

[AndyRAC]

Aaaagghhh......my eyes......

[giu canbera]

eeeeew

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Aaaagghhh......my eyes......Wait till you see the lower trims..

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Maybe not (really) related to FIA R4, but this one relates to AP4, another alternative to R5, and this made me surprised.

There are some rumours in Indonesian rallying that one - estabilshed - rally teams are designing Mitsubishi Xpander AP4, which the base comes from the MPV car itself.

Previously they planned to build Mazda 2 AP4 after their visit to Australia/NZ, but it didn't happen because their ties with Mitsubishi

https://autonetmagz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Xpander-modifikasi-modif-rally-look.jpgWhy they using Xpander for AP4 if there is a Mirage..

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[mArvAlcao17]

Why they using Xpander for AP4 if there is a Mirage..

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

Apparently because Xpander's wheelbase are slightly longer than Evo X, so apparently they wanted to put Evo X's transmission etc' to Xpander.

They can use mirage like in NZ, but the developmental cost would be skyrocket, so they want something rather cheaper solutions for now.

2nd reason is of course, marketing. Xpanders are getting popular in Indonesia - so popular that they export a lot of them to few countries. In the same time opposite thing happened to Mirage. Just around 200 units on first six months, and then no units sold for the last three months.

https://www.liputan6.com/otomotif/read/3592304/tak-ada-penjualan-mirage-3-bulan-terakhir-ada-apa-mitsubishi

[Andre Oliveira]

https://r4rallycars.com/asm-motorsport-crea-la-division-r4-rally-cars-para-preparar-vehiculos-de-una-nueva-categoria-fia/

https://r4rallycars.com/app/uploads/2018/09/ford-fiesta-R4-iso-2.jpg
https://r4rallycars.com/app/uploads/2018/09/dacia-sandero-r4-iso-2.jpg

[pantealex]

Fiesta bad (we don´t need R1,R2,R4 and R5 from same car)

Dacia yes please !

[Sulland]

Have anyone seen a price for a turnkey R4 from any of the tuning firms?

[racerx1979]

All I keep hearing is how R4 is already dead??

[pantealex]

In Finnish championship R4 was not allowed 2018, main reason is/was that no one did know speed of R4, does it belong to same class with "R5" or with "N4". Own class is not option because minimum 10 entries is basic rule for class and 2 different 4wd classes is enough.

[m-ast]

For me it's a little bit strange that a spanish company invest in R4 when in our national chamiponships we have N5 that are more or less the same and actually are quite common, probably more than 30 units have been built

[Andre Oliveira]

R4 are FIA, so can be easly sold to everywhere.

[Rally Power]

All I keep hearing is how R4 is already dead??

R4 is not dead, but its biggest problem seems to be R5 success. Like some have pointed here, a new R4 is supposed to cost more than a used R5 and most amateur drivers will think twice before paying more for less; besides, for many of those drivers runing costs (one of R4 advantages) aren’t a big issue, as they usually do a limited number of low mileage national events and in most cases they also have the option to rent a R5 car at competitive prices, which probably is the most rational way to do a handful of events per year.


For me it's a little bit strange that a spanish company invest in R4 when in our national chamiponships we have N5 that are more or less the same and actually are quite common, probably more than 30 units have been built

N5 is the spanish version of Argentinian Maxi Rally. They use Subaru stock transmission and a ligth tuned PSA engine, but they still cost a lot more than a similar proto from Dytko using Mitsubishi mechanics and they don’t have FIA approval, like R4 has. Somehow N5 failed to attract manus attention (with Suzuki exception) and they’ve only become interesting to privateers as there’s a strong pressure from the main tuner (RMC) to sell them and a limited number of local rally companies renting R5’s.


R4 are FIA, so can be easly sold to everywhere.

Probably the best solution is to get a FIA rule for Europe inspired on AP4 regulation, allowing all sort of 4wd protos (MR, N5, AP4, R4, Dytko, etc) to run on a separate class from R5. It’d be easier than having different cars from country to country and would allow drivers to also run and sell their cars abroad. Clearly a win win situation.

[Sulland]

R4 is not dead, but its biggest problem seems to be R5 success. Like some have pointed here, a new R4 is supposed to cost more than a used R5 and most amateur drivers will think twice before paying more for less; besides, for many of those drivers runing costs (one of R4 advantages) aren’t a big issue, as they usually do a limited number of low mileage national events and in most cases they also have the option to rent a R5 car at competitive prices, which probably is the most rational way to do a handful of events per year.

Probably the best solution is to get a FIA rule for Europe inspired on AP4 regulation, allowing all sort of 4wd protos (MR, N5, AP4, R4, Dytko, etc).

Rental for gentleman drivers I guess will be even cheaper for R4.

R3 could become this protoclass. If safety is ok, and you have a hp/kg rule, the rest is free.
Or you go the opposite direction. FIA approve a regulation and all tuners can build their proto cars accordingly. Tested by local ASN.

[Tarmop]

But gentlemen drivers tend to have finances and are less result-orientated, they prefer the best, which in some cases is not less than a WRC car...even if they have no competition or can't provide any.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Osian Pryce with Oreca Etios R4 debut: http://www.osianpryce.com/news/asm-motorsport-and-osian-pryce-join-forces-to-give-fia-r4-spec-rally-car-its-world-competition-debut-on-the-rallye-ciudad-de-granada/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dq28ssNX4AAP9u1.jpg

[Jarek Z]

Osian Price with Oreca Etios R4 debut: http://www.osianpryce.com/news/asm-motorsport-and-osian-pryce-join-forces-to-give-fia-r4-spec-rally-car-its-world-competition-debut-on-the-rallye-ciudad-de-granada/

Entry list of RALLY CIUDAD DE GRANADA:
https://www.rallyeciudaddegranada.es/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Lista-inscritos-oficial-V-Rallye-Ciudad-de-Granada.pdf

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Price: Chuffed ! Given the R4 Etios its first ever 💥Fastest stage time 💥on SS3 against strong R5 competition! 👌🏼

Tricky opening loop, treating it as a high speed recce. Very difficult terrain but enjoying it a lot !

@ASMmotorsport @Oreca @RallyeGranada @Rallyesdetierra https://t.co/VTc30YF8wI

[Fast Eddie WRC]

2nd overall for @OsianPryce and @Dale_Furniss in the international competitive début of the Toyota Etios R4 on @RallyeGranada 2018. The crew set some fastest stages times up against R5 cars !

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DrFyPriWoAApZAf.jpg
https://twitter.com/RallyingUK/status/1058754260953903104

[Mirek]

Full results: http://codea.es/codea/normal/paginas/tiempos.php?pruebaprograma=A41&lang=0

[Jarek Z]

So Osian Pryce and Toyota Etios R4 in their debut are secod overall! Is the car so good or are those Spanish drivers in their R5 and WRC cars so bad?

Final results:
1. Xevi Pons/Rodrigo Sanjuan (E) Skoda Fabia R5 57.39,9
2. Osian Pryce/Dale Furniss (GB) Toyota Etios R4 +52,5
3. Gorka Eizmendi/Diego Sanjuan (E) Ford Fiesta R5 +2.02,5
4. Diogo Salvi/Jorge Carvalho (P) Skoda Fabia R5 +3.52,9
5. Daniel Alonso/Cándido Carrera (E) Ford Fiesta RS WRC +3.53,8
6. Javier Pardo/Adrián Pérez (E) Suzuki Swift R+ +4.11,5
7. Eduard Pons/Dani Muntadas (E) Skoda Fabia R5 +4.40,0
8. Luis Climent/Ricardo Ranero (E) Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X +6.55,9
9. Sergio Vallejo/Diego Vallejo (E) Porsche 997 GT3 RS 3.8 +7.31,3
10. Juan Pablo Castro/Juan José Leal (E) Citroën DS3 R5 +7.33,5

[m-ast]

So Osian Pryce and Toyota Etios R4 in their debut are secod overall! Is the car so good or are those Spanish drivers in their R5 and WRC cars so bad?


Mostly them are gentelmen drivers, Xevi Pons is clearly the man to compare with in terms of R5-R4, this year the gravel championship was totally dominated by him altough we has using a clearly not so good R5 compared to others one, a 208 T16, except in this event for which he bought a Fabia

[Fast Eddie WRC]

RallyFM.net

Dream world competition debut for ASM Motorsport’s FIA R4-spec rally car, as Osian Pryce scores three stage wins and finishes second on the Rallye Ciudad de Granada

Osian Pryce gave the VR4K Oreca FIA R4-spec car a dream world competition debut by scoring an incredible three fastest stage wins and finishing second overall on the Rallye Ciudad de Granada.

The Etios R4, which was prepared by Barcelona-based ASM Motorsport, via its dedicated R4 Rally Cars Division, ran faultlessly – beating more powerful and more expensive R5 and other four-wheel drive cars on the Spanish Gravel Rally Championship round.

Pryce and co-driver Dale Furniss confirmed how driver friendly the R4-spec car is by being fast right from the word go – despite only doing three runs over the shakedown stage before the start of the rally. Yet the clever design and easy to drive nature of the R4 car made them feel right at home in it straight away.

Having successfully completed Friday night’s short one kilometre asphalt stage around the streets of Granada, Saturday’s eight stages were all on gravel – with a further 93.44kms divided into three separate stages, two of which were ran three times and one tackled twice.

The first gravel stage was damp, but despite taking a cautious approach Pryce was third quickest. Whilst two stages had very long straights, where outright power was a big advantage, the shorter of the three stages was a lot more twisty – and Pryce was able to illustrate the R4-spec car’s superb handling by scoring fastest time on all three runs through – SS4, 7 and 9.

As the stages dried and the pace of the event increased, Pryce was able to hold onto second place, finishing just 52.5 seconds behind the Škoda Fabia R5 of Xevi Pons/Rodrigo Sanjuan.

Osian Pryce said: “I really enjoyed driving the R4-spec car, and from a performance and results point of view I couldn’t have asked for any more. We only did three runs over the shakedown stage, but straight away the car felt good and easy to drive and we made no changes whatsoever before the start. We were a little cautious over the first gravel stage, it was damp and we knew we had a job to do, but we still set the third fastest time! It dried out after that, and some of the stages had very long straights where power was a big advantage, but where we lost out in outright speed – the R4 car had a near-standard engine – we gained in the tight and twisty sections.

“One gravel stage in particular suited the R4 car, and we were able to set fastest time every time it was run, which we were very pleased with. The R4 car ran faultlessly, we set consistently good times and came away with second overall, which everyone was very pleased with.

“I’d really like to thank ASM Motorsport and Oreca for giving me this opportunity to drive the R4 car in Spain. We made rally history together by giving the R4-spec car its world competition debut, and I’d certainly love to drive it again in the future.”

Álex Sabater, CEO of ASM Motorsport, said: “The purpose of coming to the Rallye Ciudad de Granada was to show that the FIA R4-spec car is a very competitive, reliable, strong and fast car – and this is exactly what we achieved. Osian did a very professional job, and gave Oreca and us a lot of very good technical feedback. With only three runs over the shakedown stage before the start, he was able to demonstrate what a good and driver friendly car the R4 is. To make three fastest stage wins, and finish second overall in a very strong field, on the R4 car’s world competition debut, is an incredible achievement.

“Until today, a lot of people didn’t know what to expect from the new FIA R4-spec car. But we have shown that you can jump straight into it and do well right from the very first stage. Osian’s first comment was that the R4 was a very driver friendly car and easy to drive, which is one of the key design elements. Why spend a lot of money on a car that is difficult to drive, and expensive to run, when you can have an R4 car that is comfortable and easy to drive, yet still very fast and competitive? It’s the perfect car for a young driver wishing to progress from a two-wheel drive car and to show his talent and for a gentleman driver who wants to really enjoy four-wheel drive rallying, without making everything very expensive, stressful and complicated. It’s a fantastic concept, and we have shown to the world what R4 really is all about today.

“I really couldn’t be more delighted with the R4 car’s world competition debut. Everyone at ASM Motorsport and Oreca did a very good job, Osian drove brilliantly and we have put R4 on the world map.”

[Rally Power]

Yep, nice show from Pryce and brave effort from ASM Motorsport to make the R4 rally debut, especially once Oreca strangely never mind to do it (the kit is homologated since July). Hopefully other teams will soon follow ASM example, proving R4 can be a valid class.

[Mirek]

Actually one of the issues with R4 is that it's not a class. It runs normally in RC2 together wih R5 and N4.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

R4 is a nice idea but in reality an R5 is the car to have.

I dont see many buyers for the kit to have their own R4, but maybe people hiring a ready-made R4 car for some semi-competitive, affordable, 4WD fun.

[Mirek]

I dont see many buyers for the kit to have their own R4, but maybe people hiring a ready-made R4 car for some semi-competitive, affordable, 4WD fun.

Our overseas members wrote here some time a go that due to taxes it's often extremely expensive to bring an R5 car into their countries while building their own R4 using a works kit can give them competitive FIA-eligible car which is much cheaper than the R5. In Europe it's different of course as here we have tons of used R5 available.

[Sulland]

Where in the world does Toyota sell the Etios model?

[Jarek Z]

Toyota Etios R4 in action

https://www.rallyeciudaddegranada.es/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/18_rallyegranada1353.jpg

[Jarek Z]

A 6-minute video from Rally Ciudad de Granada by WRCantabria can be found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMAl2u2WJSk

Warning - the level of driving doesn't seem to be very high.

[Rally Power]

Actually one of the issues with R4 is that it's not a class. It runs normally in RC2 together wih R5 and N4.

Hopefully, 'that' class issue will soon be fixed.

[steve.mandzij]

Where in the world does Toyota sell the Etios model?South America, and if I'm not mistaken India and South Africa too. Here in Argentina it's huge.

[mArvAlcao17]

Our overseas members wrote here some time a go that due to taxes it's often extremely expensive to bring an R5 car into their countries while building their own R4 using a works kit can give them competitive FIA-eligible car which is much cheaper than the R5. In Europe it's different of course as here we have tons of used R5 available.

I am the one of them. Yes, it's expensive to buy a R5 car, but R4 isn't a good option either since there are lack of reference and we have to use Oreca-supplied parts like engine, gearbox, etc. While things like AP4 has many references in Australia & NZ, and lot of options avaliable


Where in the world does Toyota sell the Etios model?

Indonesia sell it as well (as Etios Valco). It was quite good, but the sales are in decline because it's around 4-5 y.o without major change/facelift