Wrc Rally Argentina 2013

[Kielder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCLY5HujuCs

[Kielder]

Start list for leg 2: http://www.rallyargentina.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/START-LIST-FOR-SECTION-4.pdf

[andyone]

im wondering when will Ogier be stopped. he is just soo dominant.. even loeb looks like a rookie. now we need loeb back otherwise it will be the same ol story. could be even worse.. ogir will will soo many rallies this year.

[A FONDO]

im wondering when will Ogier be stopped. he is just soo dominant.. even loeb looks like a rookie. now we need loeb back otherwise it will be the same ol story. could be even worse.. ogir will will soo many rallies this year.

and what will loeb achieve if he imaginary returns? win 2-3 rallies a year by tyre gamble. is there still somebody who hasnt yet realised that loeb timed perfectly his retirement - he himself had known what would happen in a long-term fair duel

[Jafry]

http://www.rally-mania.cz/fotogalerie/2013/1146/1146_rally_argentina_2013_da66898f4e.jpg

http://www.rally-mania.cz/fotogalerie/2013/1146/1146_rally_argentina_2013_4ef5ed89f7.jpg

http://www.rally-mania.cz/fotogalerie/2013/1146/1146_rally_argentina_2013_990814cd0e.jpg

http://www.rally-mania.cz/fotogalerie/2013/1146/1146_rally_argentina_2013_ed30540266.jpg

More photos from Argentina HERE (http://www.rally-mania.cz/photogallery.php?id=1146)

[AdvEvo]

Loeb is still the best driver. Its only the VW polo that wins from Citroen.

[Francis44]

Loeb is still the best driver. Its only the VW polo that wins from Citroen.

Funny..... That is not entirely true.

[Barreis]

He's best in statistics but Ogier is as quick as Loeb (finally someone). Now seems that vw has better machinery. Why should always Loeb or citroen win?!

[Kielder]

Nice gesture by Moya, who came round to cheer Del Barrio up.

http://static.ow.ly/photos/original/21GyO.jpg

BTW, "Carlos del Barrio had been distracted by a half-open door on the Ascochinga stage. He tried to close it properly in a fast section before a hairpin, then miscalled a pace note shortly afterwards."
Argentina WRC: door issue a factor in Dani Sordo's crash - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107150)

[Mirek]

Loeb is still the best driver. Its only the VW polo that wins from Citroen.

As JML and Mikkelsen clearly prove... something wrong in Your theory, not? ;)

[Mintexmemory]

As JML and Mikkelsen clearly prove... something wrong in Your theory, not? ;)

The Jury is still considering the evidence ;) Let's see what the situation is in the autumn.

[bluuford]

Yesterday was very changeable weather. The stages were between elevations from 600-1600. That is a lot. So, on some elevations it was raining and it was dry on the other elevations. Basically what happened. It was very dry on the stages before the rally. It rained overnight in many places and the rain was able to dampen the top of the surface only. So, the first cars took the damp layer away and later cars enjoyed nice conditions (until the last stage). There was more rain tonight but today should be dry and much wramer. So, everything should dry up quickly. Today stages are between 500 1100 meters. So, expect Fords to do a little better. Maybe overnight rain (and slight ossibility of light drizzle on higher elevation) might help Mads as well.

[Kielder]

Nice sequence:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/482505_10200525524795346_1628443157_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/321485_10200525524715344_18103045_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/946158_10200525524915349_664032441_n.jpg

[A FONDO]

Loeb is still the best driver. Its only the VW polo that wins from Citroen.

where you were in 2011?

[stefanvv]

http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Fans_Friends/1%20WRC/Rallye/Argentinien/Berichterstattung/2013/20130502/Galerie_des_Tages/886x498px_vw-20130502-5859-max-VW-WRC13-05-RB2-0408.jpghttp://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Fans_Friends/1%20WRC/Rallye/Argentinien/Berichterstattung/2013/20130502/Galerie_des_Tages/886x498px_vw-20130502-5858-max-VW-WRC13-05-RB1-1562.jpghttp://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Fans_Friends/1%20WRC/Rallye/Argentinien/Berichterstattung/2013/20130502/Galerie_des_Tages/886x498px_vw-20130502-5860-max-VW-WRC13-05-RB2-0457.jpg

[spiderem]

I hope mads is not becoming a JML no2... Crashing on day one and then stunning fast drive on day 2 & 3 when he is 10min away from the podium...

[darkstar]

http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Fans_Friends/1%20WRC/Rallye/Argentinien/Berichterstattung/2013/20130502/Galerie_des_Tages/886x498px_vw-20130502-5859-max-VW-WRC13-05-RB2-0408.jpghttp://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Fans_Friends/1%20WRC/Rallye/Argentinien/Berichterstattung/2013/20130502/Galerie_des_Tages/886x498px_vw-20130502-5858-max-VW-WRC13-05-RB1-1562.jpg

when you only have a short look on those 2 pictures, it looks lite its only one picture. would be a bit confusing situation ;)

[stefanvv]

when you only have a short look on those 2 pictures, it looks lite its only one picture. would be a bit confusing situation ;)

It was pure coinsidence, I was thinking the same when I looked over my post :D

[Mirek]

I really thought it's a one picture with some funny editing :D

[wwbroe]

First stage of today should be live now, let's see if Citroen drivers can be a threath to Ogier in the VW, or will he be untouchable once again? Looking forward also to what JML can do today, his times yesterday were quite good.

[stefanvv]

All drivers picked 5 softs for first loop

[wwbroe]

There was heavy overnight rain on the stages, will this affect results in any way. What do you guys think?

[Tom206wrc]

Sordo in the same rythm as...Pozzo :s

[wwbroe]

Kociuszko stopped in the stage, bad luck again for him

[stefanvv]

There was heavy overnight rain on the stages, will this affect results in any way. What do you guys think?

Splits are curious so far, perhaps

[wwbroe]

Splis not working again as they supposed to do. Grrr.....

[wwbroe]

Water is coming into Sordo's engine in the watersplashes, not good news for Citroens.

[malscar]

Loeb is still the best driver. Its only the VW polo that wins from Citroen.

Or could that be that Loeb was only winning because of the car he was driving? Same argument you use for the VW winning now.

[Tom206wrc]

Kociuszko stopped in the stage, bad luck again for him

You mean crappy Mini :down:

[wwbroe]

You mean crappy Mini :down:

Maybe that has something to do with it also...

[wwbroe]

Hirvonen is the first to beat Ostberg's time, not by a large margin tough. The two fastest guys are still to come in.

[wwbroe]

Hail and snow falling on second stage of the day???

[wwbroe]

Loeb made a small mistake towards the end of the stage, loosing about four seconds

[stefanvv]

Loeb was about to win this one, but had made small mistake

[Kielder]

Hail and snow falling on second stage of the day???

Pic done by George Donaldson at the end of that stage:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/943215_563606120350717_1204028450_n.jpg

[bluuford]

Hail and snow falling on second stage of the day???

There was heavy rainfall and hail early in the morning. So, everything is not melted yet. Next stage is in higher elevation as well. Previus was the lowest (between 500-800 meters), this on is between 600 and 1100 meters. Conditions should be worse, and better for first starters.

[wwbroe]

Did you guys see the average speed on the 40km long first stage of the day, an amazing 108Km/h !!!

[Kielder]

We could say that the previous Donaldson's pic is biased :p .

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJV1vcBCUAEeJsd.jpg

It's sunny, 14 ºC.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJV2A9KCUAEl0se.jpg:large

[wwbroe]

Sordo is exactly a minute slower trough then Ostberg

[EightGear]

Loeb's on a push, 6.4 seconds faster than Seb II at split 3.

[wwbroe]

Ogier is about 6,5 sec slower as Loeb at about halfway trough the stage. Would that be possible?

[Negaiss]

Loeb on charge! Good luck to him!!

[Kielder]

Sordo is exactly a minute slower trough then Ostberg

His engine is down to 3 cylinders since the watersplash at the beginning of the previous stage.

[wwbroe]

Ogier is having a problem, loosing about half a minute compared to Miko on split 4???

[EightGear]

Ogier 30 seconds slower than Hirvonen on the splits!

[bluuford]

As expected.. ostberg had an advantage being first on the road

[wwbroe]

Ogier is 38 sec down to Loeb on splits....

[Tom206wrc]

Ogier :s

[wwbroe]

Seb Loeb made a mistake agfain towards the end, but loosing only about a second, but that cost him the best time on this stage.

[EightGear]

I'm actually cheering for Loeb for once. :p

[jonkka]

Any explanation for Ogi's lack of pace?

[Rallyper]

Handbrake... :dozey:

[SashaIF]

Any explanation for Ogi's lack of pace?
He went off the road at the muddy section of stage.

[seb_sh]

Looking at the splits it seems going off cost Ogier about 25 seconds, he was loosing time to Loeb throughout the stage. Now let's see a fight-back :D

[Kielder]

I remember now this excellent article. Even after his retirement, he has done it again.

How Do You Solve a Problem Like Sebastien (Loeb :p )? - PistonHeads (http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1076706&nmt=)

[jonkka]

He went off the road at the muddy section of stage.

Thx!

[jonas_mcrae]

A couple of years ago I would not say this but... GO LOEB!!!! CITROEN FTW!! times change haha

[Josti]

This scenario could bring teamorders into play. Loeb slowing for Hirvonen, that would be a first.

[Barreis]

Why to put Hirvonen infront of Loeb?! He doesn't have chance against Ogier.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

No excuse for Ogier this time.. ?! :-P

[jonas_mcrae]

Why to put Hirvonen infront of Loeb?! He doesn't have chance against Ogier.

Second that, Citroen should focus on the manu title and if in the meantime Loeb can come back and beat the VW's they should allow it.

[A FONDO]

It is getting interesting :) Now we will see how good is Ogier at chasing and if loeb will finally win a stage. :)

[Nornbugger]

So Ogier is still human after all, it will be interesting to see how he reacts to this, he could still win it, and lets face it, he has still less to lose if he bins it than Loeb or Mikko.

[Josti]

Why to put Hirvonen infront of Loeb?! He doesn't have chance against Ogier.

No titles have been decided yet. I know, Ogier is miles in front but any chance could prove valuable.

Hirvonens pace in Argentina has thus far been quite good. Normally hardly a match for Ogier, but he's under pressure now.

[Miika]

Ogier 17 seconds behind Mikko with half a rally left, and people talking about team-orders. Come on.

[A FONDO]

World Rally Championship - News - Ogier told to go for it (http://www.wrc.com/news/ogier-told-to-go-for-it/?fid=18537)

[bluuford]

Ogier goes for it.. oh no.. sounds like more off road excurions to come :-P

[A FONDO]

You didnt read all, did you?

Early in the service Ogier talked more about the incident that cost him the lead. “We had a problem with the handbrake, like we had for a long time,” he explained.

“It was a long right-hand tightening corner – a fast one – and the exit was full of mud. I started to understeer a little bit and I wanted to help the car with the handbrake but unfortunately it locked the front and I understeered more. I have no option but to go off the road.”

Volkswagen replaced the complete handbrake and differential lock system in service and are analysing whether or not the system was faulty.

Ogier and Jari-Matti Latvala’s cars are fitted with the same type of system, which is known to be slow at releasing drive to the front wheels when the handbrake is pulled.

The third Polo R of Andreas Mikkelsen is fitted with a new, different system that is faster but unproven in competition.

Despite Ogier's desire to use the new system immediately, the team is unwilling to introduce it until they are hapy with its reliability.

[Francis44]

Ogier completely mad man. In just one split he takes 2.2 from Loeb.

[Mintexmemory]

I reckon Ogier needs 16 sec back today - this is a good start (hope I don't jinx it)

[bluuford]

He is going to overuse his soft tires on that pace

[stefanvv]

Hanaaa VW, hanaaaa :D

[Francis44]

Loeb on the pace now, very good fight.

[mousti]

Ogier got puncture!

[andyone]

whats up with mikko he lost soo much time

[rayh_mx]

Grande Loeb!!!!

[stefanvv]

What a stage!

[bluuford]

Ogier got puncture!

As expected...

[Negaiss]

Battle is on and it is clearly visible - both Sebs in legue of their own. Ogier says that it is not his plan to catch Loeb but his driving shows the opposite - Ogier push like crazy.

This stage was MAX speed. Would love to see this battle in stages.

[darkstar]

so ogier and horvonen with punctures...i wonder if ogier will try to fight back. i hope he will!

[stefanvv]

Its worth mention also Mikelsen performance on this one. He also had puncture, but despite that beats Ostberg and sets equal time to Latvala!

[Hartusvuori]

Mikkelsen retired before the start of SS9.

[rallye-vid]

Bad news :(

[Mintexmemory]

JML looks like he smells Mikko's blood!!

[stefanvv]

Bad news for @AMikkelsenRally (http://www.twitter.com/AMikkelsenRally): Suspension is damaged. He has to retire for the day and will restart under Rally2 regulations tomorrow

[bluuford]

Mikkelsen hit a bridge on the previous stage and broke suspension

[darkstar]

latvala stopped...

[Hartusvuori]

JML stopped, but on the move again.

Mikko stopped! WTF?!

[stefanvv]

Looks like Ogier will settle for 2nd

[darkstar]

indeed :(

[Bartek]

Citroen with Loeb is a good rival for VW, Hirvonen and Sordo at this moment is a mistake...

[bluuford]

Novikov on Podium?

[mousti]

Jarmo calling on the team saying they have lost all the electrics, the engine keeps stopping.

[rallyfun]

Citroen with Loeb is a good rival for VW, Hirvonen and Sordo at this moment is a mistake...

Can you find better driver than Mikko for Citroen at this moment?

[Mintexmemory]

Novikov on Podium?
Long way to go still!!

[WRC 2013]

delete

[rallye-vid]

So, we know whats wrong with Mikko. But whats wrong with JML?

[darkstar]

didnt really get it...he pushed and after a jump he landed in a hole and then?

[Bartek]

Can you find better driver than Mikko for Citroen at this moment?

Main issue is that i can't but this does not change the fact that Mikko is (how to say this) slow...

[rayh_mx]

A "mexican" rock?

[A FONDO]

didnt really get it...he pushed and after a jump he landed in a hole and then?

then stopped to change a punctured tyre

[darkstar]

ok thanks :)

[Rallyper]

Main issue is that i can't but this does not change the fact that Mikko is (how to say this) slow...

Not slow. Only not as fast as Sebs.

[SashaIF]

Mikko has electrical problems

[Mintexmemory]

Expect Ogier to consolidate and win the PS - Can Evgeny count on JML hitting more trouble?

[HarriK]

Is Citroen WRC main switch under the driver seat?
C2 had that there...drinking bottle was free and touched the main switch and cut the power...

[COD]

Can you find better driver than Mikko for Citroen at this moment?

They have one, they just need to convince him out of semi retirement...

[makinen_fan]

http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/253299_10151466605103952_1662228227_n.jpg

[rayh_mx]

I guess Loeb is the luckiest man in the world...
* Otsberg problems
* Novikov choosed wrong start position
* Hirnonen electrical issues
* Latvala puncture
* Ogier went off wasting time
* Ogier puncture
* Ogier destroyed his soft tyres try to catch him
* Benito didn't foun money for this rally :p
* Colin (+), Carlos, KKK, Didier, Mak, Peter forgot to go to Argentina this year (Age, you know)
* And a Large etc...

[Barreis]

It's just mental war. Then things start to go in Loeb's favor.

[andyone]

no live stream for the ss?

[Kielder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPuOhKQoxRI

[stefanvv]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDXrKrshUPQ

[noel157]

Just in and caught up with things over the last 6/7 pages. Certainly an interesting day.

[A FONDO]

Yes it were some good few hours this afternoon. Pity it happens so rarely.

[Sulland]

Citroen with Loeb is a good rival for VW, Hirvonen and Sordo at this moment is a mistake...

Yes, and in I was Matton on a dark night I would have wondered why I did not accept the deal Petter offered a while back........

[Kielder]

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8547/8706080526_95ae22dafc_b.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8253/8706079842_8c2bc0c144_b.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8137/8704958573_59ab526792_b.jpg

[Kielder]

Watch Ogier's mistake (BTW, he wasn't the first one who went straight on at that corner):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxEYDMtos6U

[Nornbugger]

Yes, and in I was Matton on a dark night I would have wondered why I did not accept the deal Petter offered a while back........

Petter= Mikko with more charisma and crashes, certainly not with more speed though.

Also I fully respect Loebs right to ease back and have a life, but wow, what a season we have been robbed of having the 2 Sebs fighting for the title.

[rallyfanbelgium]

yes neuville place 5

http://www.facebook.com/bestrallyvideos

[tfp]

Petter= Mikko with more charisma and crashes, certainly not with more speed though.

Also I fully respect Loebs right to ease back and have a life, but wow, what a season we have been robbed of having the 2 Sebs fighting for the title.

Judging by the article I read on wrc.com recently he doesn't have much of a life, having only had one weekend at home last month.

But what a shame yes, this would maybe have been closer than Loeb v gronholm years ago.

Heres hoping Ogier can pull it back. The championship will look a bit of a joke if the 2013 world champ is only winning because Loeb isn't there.
Ill not hold my breath, usually when he gets a 40 second lead the race is over...

[A FONDO]

Judging by the article I read on wrc.com recently he doesn't have much of a life, having only had one weekend at home last month.


I read something like that on other website, he said he is certainly busier this year, quite contradictory to his statement last year when he said he quits rallies because they are so long and he wants to be with his family more often.

[Kielder]

Start list for today: http://www.rallyargentina.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/START-LIST-FOR-SECTION-7.pdf

[dimviii]

I read something like that on other website, he said he is certainly busier this year, quite contradictory to his statement last year when he said he quits rallies because they are so long and he wants to be with his family more often.

he is scared from Ogier,thats why he left.
You will understant it better at France though how scared he was.

[A FONDO]

he is scared from Ogier,thats why he left.
you said it, I just posted the facts

dont you have eggs to paint? :D [attachment=1:3iyersyq]pint2.gif[/attachment:3iyersyq]

[AdvEvo]

Loeb scared what a laugh!

The man is 40 year old. He has shown what he can do with a car. And even on that age he is still winning. Loeb is maybe not always the fastest on all stages. But he knows when to take risks en when not. He is THE best allround rally driver.

[dimviii]

you said it, I just posted the facts
facts is that a semiretired Loeb who has to drive at gravel from Spain 2012 is faster from Ogier straight and square after he manage to setup properly his understeer,and a wrong tyre choice at 1st day.


dont you have eggs to paint? :D

eggs are wifes job.I am about the sheeps. :D

Mikkos tyre

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJXd7rcCQAIh5QE.jpg:large

[bluuford]

Todays weather looks to come a bit more tricky again (specially on the lat stage). Almost calm, some clouds, some sun, possibly some fog temperature between +9 and +15 degrees. and rain possibility increasin as the day continues (afternoon). Rain possibility is bigger on the last stage of the day and nearly no possibility on the first three stages.
Todays stages are the highest of the rally. SS11/13 is held in 1000-1900meters Ss12/14 is held in 1400-2100 meters.

Edit: messed up with stage numbers. now should be more correct

[jonkka]

eggs are wifes job.I am about the sheeps.:

You paint sheep? :eek:

[jonkka]

eggs are wifes job.I am about the sheeps.:

You paint sheep? :eek:

[A FONDO]

after he manage to setup properly his understeer,and a wrong tyre choice
when setup and tyre problems are for Ogier or somebody else, then it is just "part of the game", "their own mistakes", "loebs superiority to avoid them"
now when loeb cant manage his car or anything else is not according to his taste, we must exclude these stages/days/rallies from the calculations ?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?

http://hostthenpost.org/uploads/da7ef27987d29c96a1c077d4de1176d3.jpg

[A FONDO]

p.s. If I had wanted to act like a loeb-fan I could have said the same things for Ogier in Monte - 1 year absence of WRC drive on long stages; improper setup with the new understeering chassis; bad tyre choice in second loop of first day, wrong timing etc. etc. but I've never used and will never use such miserable arguments!

[dimviii]

when setup and tyre problems are for Ogier or somebody else, then it is just "part of the game", "their own mistakes", "loebs superiority to avoid them"
Why you change my words? Loeb said that at 1st day he had understeer problems.Proove of this is that when he found the right setup was faster.Fact is that when Ogier pushed from Loeb made a mistake.Of course if they ddnt find the right setup is ''their own mistakes''.Of course Loeb has superiority to avoid rocks and drive clean.Thats why he won at Argentina all the last years.

now when loeb cant manage his car or anything else is not according to his taste, we must exclude these stages/days/rallies from the calculations ?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?

who said that?

Do you remember you had quoted me about he will ridicule him?
Feel free to discuss,Ogier fan!

[stefanvv]

World Rally Championship - Video - Highlights (http://www.wrc.com/video/highlights)

What I see it's not Ogier's fault for off, his car's wheels were just blocked. Loeb was lucky with his off, too fast on that corner

[dimviii]

but I've never used and will never use such miserable arguments!

they wouldn t help you.

[stefanvv]

Tyre choice of the #Volkswagen (http://search.twitter.com/search?q=Volkswagen) drivers for the final loop @rallyargentina (http://www.twitter.com/rallyargentina): 6 soft Michelin #WRC (http://search.twitter.com/search?q=WRC)

[Kielder]

"Neuville reporting that there is smoke coming from his car on the road section but all temperatures are ok". :(

[bluuford]

World Rally Championship - Video - Highlights (http://www.wrc.com/video/highlights)

What I see it's not Ogier's fault for off, his car's wheels were just blocked. Loeb was lucky with his off, too fast on that corner
I the other words I would call it: misjudged the corner... too fast into the corner, went off and lucky to get back on the road so quickly:-) Drivers always are trying to make things to look a bit different ;-)

[A FONDO]

Me, Ogier fan????? you are completely wrong

say again who was faster in which day and stage because I am completely lost in trying to decypher what are you trying to say (except "loeb is always better") [attachment=1:kovxu1et]blah.gif[/attachment:kovxu1et]

[noel157]

I the other words I would call it: misjudged the corner... too fast into the corner, went off and lucky to get back on the road so quickly:-) Drivers always are trying to make things to look a bit different ;-)

Thought he said he pulled the handbrake to help the car around and the system failed and locked the front wheels, no? Although of course he may still have carried too much speed into the corner.

[dimviii]

Me, Ogier fan????? you are completely wrong

Maybe confused me your continious antiLoeb comments.Sorry.


say again who was faster in which day and stage because I am completely lost in trying to decypher what are you trying to say (except "loeb is always better") 3145

no didn t said Loeb is always better.Stop change my words.

[dimviii]

I the other words I would call it: misjudged the corner... too fast into the corner, went off and lucky to get back on the road so quickly:-) Drivers always are trying to make things to look a bit different ;-)

at same corner Latvala haven t got this handbrake problem,but its not Ogiers fault.

[wwbroe]

Me, Ogier fan????? you are completely wrong

say again who was faster in which day and stage because I am completely lost in trying to decypher what are you trying to say (except "loeb is always better") 3145

It looks like you choose your name quite correct, looks like "slow" understanding is part of your game.

[stefanvv]

Novikov is going for podium :confused:

[bluuford]

at same corner Latvala haven t got this handbrake problem,but its not Ogiers fault.
You newer know ;-) working handbrake could help you to roll the car on such a corner as well...

[stefanvv]

at same corner Latvala haven t got this handbrake problem,but its not Ogiers fault.

May be he didn't use it there

[makinen_fan]

Thought he said he pulled the handbrake to help the car around and the system failed and locked the front wheels, no? Although of course he may still have carried too much speed into the corner.

Was his handbrake completely broken? To my understanding from one of Capito's interviews is that the handbrake was not broken. The VW handbrake on JML and Ogier's car is simply slow to react, but not the experimental system on Andrea's car. So he should have been prepared how it would react in case of such a situation.

[stefanvv]

Was his handbrake completely broken? To my understanding from one of Capito's interviews is that the handbrake was not broken. The VW handbrake on JML and Ogier's car is simply slow to react, but not the experimental system on Andrea's car. So he should have been prepared how it would react in case of such a situation.

It's true they had the older system, but it was broken somehow which made things worse

[makinen_fan]

It's true they had the older system, but it was broken somehow which made things worse

No it was not broken at all. He still refers to the way the system behaves as a problem. Read carefully here:

Early in the service Ogier talked more about the incident that cost him the lead. “We had a problem with the handbrake, like we had for a long time,” he explained.

“It was a long right-hand tightening corner – a fast one – and the exit was full of mud. I started to understeer a little bit and I wanted to help the car with the handbrake but unfortunately it locked the front and I understeered more. I have no option but to go off the road.”

Volkswagen replaced the complete handbrake and differential lock system in service and are analysing whether or not the system was faulty.

Ogier and Jari-Matti Latvala’s cars are fitted with the same type of system, which is known to be slow at releasing drive to the front wheels when the handbrake is pulled.

The third Polo R of Andreas Mikkelsen is fitted with a new, different system that is faster but unproven in competition.

Despite Ogier's desire to use the new system immediately, the team is unwilling to introduce it until they are happy with its reliability.

from wrc.com

[Kielder]

Tyre choice of the #Volkswagen (http://search.twitter.com/search?q=Volkswagen) drivers for the final loop @rallyargentina (http://www.twitter.com/rallyargentina): 6 soft Michelin #WRC (http://search.twitter.com/search?q=WRC)

Neuville did the same choice. The rest of Ford drivers on hard tyres, same as Citroen.

[wwbroe]

Ogier is taking it very easy on this one i must say.

[stefanvv]

...like we had for a long time,...

On that stage (or few stages back).


but unfortunately it locked the front and I understeered more.

If he is used to the system, he would know how it would behave, therefore if it is broken, he wouldn't

[Kielder]

Ogier is taking it very easy on this one i must say.

He won't fight against Loeb, as he said yesterday. He behaves as the next WRC champion. It isn't needed (trying to) be Loeb when Loeb is competing.

[ZequeArgentina]

Neuville did the same choice. The rest of Ford drivers on hard tyres, same as Citroen.

Strange that Ogier choses softs, as he looks to be running safe for second looking at the championship.

[MikeD]

Hehe @Ogier "I don't care about Loeb". Of course he does! If Loeb beats Ogier in total over those 4 events then Ogiers title will always have this "if" hanging above it. He might become world champion but he still wont be the best in the world. I bet it bugs him .... you can tell from his voice :)

[dimviii]

Ogier is taking it very easy on this one i must say.

he saw that the other way like yesterday doesn t work.

[miniwintz]

Novikov reportedly in "road mode" during the special stage, anyone know what this means? He seemed pissed despite his very good time.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Novikov 2nd fastest in with the car in Road-mode ?? Weird ... :crazy:

[tommeke_B]

Novikov 2nd fastest in with the car in Road-mode ?? Weird ... :crazy: Not sure if joking or... making Latvala nervous. :D

[dimviii]

Hehe @Ogier "I don't care about Loeb". Of course he does! If Loeb beats Ogier in total over those 4 events then Ogiers title will always have this "if" hanging above it. He might become world champion but he still wont be the best in the world. I bet it bugs him .... you can tell from his voice :)

Capito told yesterday that he is free to hunt Loeb.Pitty that he don t hunt him with 54 points advantage and his championship rivals far behind at this rally too.
Plenty forumers have said that Ogier even when is 1 st still pushes at rallies,and Loeb doesn t pushes when he is 1st.............
Maybe Slowson can explain it better.

[Francis44]

Hehe @Ogier "I don't care about Loeb". Of course he does! If Loeb beats Ogier in total over those 4 events then Ogiers title will always have this "if" hanging above it. He might become world champion but he still wont be the best in the world. I bet it bugs him .... you can tell from his voice :)

Dont forget Sweden. Ogier was able to beat Loeb quite heavily there.

[Kielder]

Hehe @Ogier "I don't care about Loeb". Of course he does! If Loeb beats Ogier in total over those 4 events then Ogiers title will always have this "if" hanging above it. He might become world champion but he still wont be the best in the world. I bet it bugs him .... you can tell from his voice :)

It will bug him until the end of his days. Hundreds of times he will be asked about that "if". I also bet that Ogier, as 2013 WRC champion, won't end in Alsace trying to beat Loeb at home :) .

[tommeke_B]

@Francis44, if Loeb finishes the rally in the same position, it's 2-1. And the advantage of Loeb is 2x bigger as Ogier had in Sweden...

[Francis44]

@Francis44, if Loeb finishes the rally in the same position, it's 2-1. And the advantage of Loeb is 2x bigger as Ogier had in Sweden...

Ofcourse, I expect a driver like Loeb with some many years of this championship to still have a little more to give than Ogier. What some of you fail to see is that Ogier is much better than Loeb was when they were at the same phase of their career :) .

[dimviii]

@Francis44, if Loeb finishes the rally in the same position, it's 2-1. And the advantage of Loeb is 2x bigger as Ogier had in Sweden...

and 4x at Monte

[dimviii]

Ofcourse, I expect a driver like Loeb with some many years of this championship to still have a little more to give than Ogier. What some of you fail to see is that Ogier is much better than Loeb was when they were at the same phase of their career :) .

really? you compare Gronholm,Mc Rae,Sainz with Novikov,Neuville,Sordo,Latvala?

[MikeD]

Ofcourse, I expect a driver like Loeb with some many years of this championship to still have a little more to give than Ogier. What some of you fail to see is that Ogier is much better than Loeb was when they were at the same phase of their career :) .

Really how's that? Loeb fought for the world title from his first full season only losing by 1 point. After that he was never beaten. I can't see Ogier has done better ... and I doubt he will come close to beat Loeb's records.

Don't get me worng, I really like Ogier, but some times he's a bit corky and lacks a bit of sportsmans behaviour. That's why I hope Loeb wins the 4-rally-cup amongst the two .... just because it will bug Ogier through his entire career ;)

[Francis44]

really? you compare Gronholm,Mc Rae,Sainz with Novikov,Neuville,Sordo,Latvala?

No, I compare how easily Ogier was able to keep up and with Loeb in Finland and Sweden 2011 in the first full year of manufacteur team and how difficult it was for Loeb to be competitive in those same rally's back when we started.


Really how's that? Loeb fought for the world title from his first full season only losing by 1 point. After that he was never beaten. I can't see Ogier has done better ... and I doubt he will come close to beat Loeb's records.

Don't get me worng, I really like Ogier, but some times he's a bit corky and lacks a bit of sportsmans behaviour. That's why I hope Loeb wins the 4-rally-cup amongst the two .... just because it will bug Ogier through his entire career http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I understand Ogier can come out as arrogant sometimes. Still, Loeb was a bit back in the day aswell, I think maybe it's a french tradition ;) .

[rallye-vid]

Guys, continue your Loeb vs Ogier battle in this thread please: http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/152244-sebastien-loeb-vs.html

Leave this topic clean for the rally Argentina 2013

[makinen_fan]

Ofcourse, I expect a driver like Loeb with some many years of this championship to still have a little more to give than Ogier. What some of you fail to see is that Ogier is much better than Loeb was when they were at the same phase of their career :) .

Ogier is in his 4th full WRC season (or 5th if you count last year). Loeb won the championship in his 2nd full season, and probably lost it on his 1st attempt due to the well-known team orders in Rally GB 2003...

[dimviii]

No, I compare how easily Ogier was able to keep up and with Loeb in Finland and Sweden 2011 in the first full year of manufacteur team and how difficult it was for Loeb to be competitive in those same rally's back when we started.

why you choose only the rallies Ogier had a good result? Compare the whole chpampionship/year
its very easy for me to compare rallies where Ogier was 3 minutes back,and is not that hard to find one.

[Francis44]

why you choose only the rallies Ogier had a good result? Compare the whole chpampionship/year
its very easy for me to compare rallies where Ogier was 3 minutes back,and is not that hard to find one.

I see your point, I just choose those one's because of how specialized and difficult they are.


Ogier is in his 4th full WRC season (or 5th if you count last year). Loeb won the championship in his 2nd full season, and probably lost it on his 1st attempt due to the well-known team orders in Rally GB 2003...

I was comparing mostly to the 2011 season.

[wwbroe]

What a looser this guy Loeb is, he only won two stages in this rally sofar, normally he should be far behind Ogier..... :D

[tommeke_B]

Ogier is in his 4th full WRC season (or 5th if you count last year). Loeb won the championship in his 2nd full season, and probably lost it on his 1st attempt due to the well-known team orders in Rally GB 2003...Could you remind me about the team orders in 2003? I was probably too young back then. :) So he lost the championship due to team orders in Rally GB, in favor of a Subaru driver? :)

[tommeke_B]

really? you compare Gronholm,Mc Rae,Sainz with Novikov,Neuville,Sordo,Latvala?

You forget Ostberg... Anyway the "lack" of very top-drivers is not Ogier his fault (but of course that doesn't make him a better or worse driver either)... It's most likely because there haven't been enough chances (only 2 proper manufacturers the last 4 years before VW). I'm quite sure that, in 3-4 years, things will be different. Also Novikov, Neuville and Ostberg still have potential to grow (unlike what I think about Sordo, Latvala and Hirvonen).

[MikeD]

Could you remind me about the team orders in 2003? I was probably too young back then. :) So he lost the championship due to team orders in Rally GB, in favor of a Subaru driver? :)

I think makinen_fan is refering to Citroën asking Loeb to hold back on Rally GB 2003 to secure the Manufacturers' title and not focus on the drivers' title.

[A FONDO]

no didn t said Loeb is always better

but you never said somebody else was better than him anywhere, which is the same


at same corner Latvala haven t got this handbrake problem,but its not Ogiers fault.
yes because latvala was slower there and everywhere else. lower speed = no problems with staying on neat trajectory


Novikov reportedly in "road mode" during the special stage, anyone know what this means? He seemed pissed despite his very good time.
I think "road mode" is when the engine uses the map for liason sections

[tommeke_B]

Ofcourse, I expect a driver like Loeb with some many years of this championship to still have a little more to give than Ogier. What some of you fail to see is that Ogier is much better than Loeb was when they were at the same phase of their career :) .Why don't you make a comparison between Stig Blomqvist and Sébastien Ogier? It's more extreme but maybe it will make you understand, that comparing two drivers from a different era is wrong. And yes, Loeb and Ogier are from a different era.

[makinen_fan]

Could you remind me about the team orders in 2003? I was probably too young back then. :) So he lost the championship due to team orders in Rally GB, in favor of a Subaru driver? :)

Let's put in other words, he was refused the chance to fight for it. Whoever won that rally was the champion (PS or SL)

[rallye-vid]

Nice fights are coming.

Latvala vs Novikov
Mikkelsen vs Sordo vs Prokop

[dimviii]

but you never said somebody else was better than him anywhere, which is the same

Plenty of times somebody else was faster or better than Loeb.But wasn t better overall.



yes because latvala was slower there and everywhere else. lower speed = no problems with staying on neat trajectory


so he had to mantain a lower speed to avoid exits.Understeer problems also Loeb had at 1st day,but didn t bin it,even he was back.Thats the difference between them.

[Kielder]

"Why can't we be friends?" :)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/577499_10200530565361357_2018281484_n.jpg

[A FONDO]

Plenty of times somebody else was faster or better than Loeb.But wasn t better overall.

I should better try to argue with a CD player

so he had to mantain a lower speed to avoid exits.Understeer problems also Loeb had at 1st day,but didn t bin it,even he was back.Thats the difference between them.

loeb was having constant understeer everywhere and adapted to it; Ogier had a sudden mechanical failure at a critical moment

[smsgrafica]

Understeer problems also Loeb had at 1st day,but didn t bin it,even he was back.Thats the difference between them.Well, Loeb went off 2 times yesterday, but had the luck not to loose much time. I'd say from the 2011 season we could see both Sebs were in a league of their own. You don't win 5 rallies in the same team with Loeb if you are not a great driver.

[stefanvv]

Well, Loeb went off 2 times yesterday

3 actually - 3rd on the same corner on the repeating stage, only 1 second lost this time.

[dimviii]

Well, Loeb went off 2 times yesterday, but had the luck not to loose much time. I'd say from the 2011 season we could see both Sebs were in a league of their own. You don't win 5 rallies in the same team with Loeb if you are not a great driver.

nobody said that he isn t a great driver.Some others claim that Loeb isn t great,but he is lucky and etc nonsens

[dimviii]

Well, Loeb went off 2 times yesterday, but had the luck not to loose much time. I'd say from the 2011 season we could see both Sebs were in a league of their own. You don't win 5 rallies in the same team with Loeb if you are not a great driver.

yes i know Loeb is lucky.Very lucky 8 continious years at Argentina specifically.lol

[dimviii]

I should better try to argue with a CD player

to argue about Loeb is lucky? even a cd player wouldn t agree.



loeb was having constant understeer everywhere and adapted to it; Ogier had a sudden mechanical failure at a critical moment

thats false,read again makinen fan post some pages back.

[smsgrafica]

Loeb is a great driver, for sure one of the best of all times, but you can't deny the fact he hasn't been the best driver this weekend. He just got lucky with Ogier's troubles, otherwise he would've ended 2nd.

[xavier]

What some of you fail to see is that Ogier is much better than Loeb was when they were at the same phase of their career :) .

I am not sure why you say that

Ogier has ran 42 rallies in a WRC, 10 wins and 7 other podium

for Loeb, 42 WRC rally spans from 2001 San Remo to 2005 Sweden: 11 wins, 12 other podium (note that after 2005 Loeb started to crush everything: in the next 10 Rallies up to 2005 GB, he won 7 of them)

[Coach 2]

Well, Loeb went off 2 times yesterday, but had the luck not to loose much time. I'd say from the 2011 season we could see both Sebs were in a league of their own. You don't win 5 rallies in the same team with Loeb if you are not a great driver.

Agree.

What do / did Loeb at such a big star that he is, is not just that he won the most races, but he also has the most second places. When he realized that it most likely would end of the road if he attempted to win, he settled for No. 2.

When Ogier choose the same tactics he is not a worse driver, but an equally sensible one.

[wwbroe]

Loeb is a great driver, for sure one of the best of all times, but you can't deny the fact he hasn't been the best driver this weekend. He just got lucky with Ogier's troubles, otherwise he would've ended 2nd.

In your dreams, the fact that Ogier made mistakes is exactly because Loeb was raising the pressure on him. If you look at the splits you can clearly see that Ogier was allready loosing some 7 secs before he went off, loosing about 25 sec extra in the adventure.

[xavier]

Well, Loeb went off 2 times yesterday, but had the luck not to loose much time. I'd say from the 2011 season we could see both Sebs were in a league of their own. You don't win 5 rallies in the same team with Loeb if you are not a great driver.

Invoking Luck to explain driver results is non sense: you made your own luck. Some drivers know where they can afford to push more: for instance in a corner where there is clearance if you go a bit off, that allows them to recover from these mistake with little cost, nothing to do with luck: just balancing risk and reward. Some driver pick more puncture because their driving style (Petter), that has nothing to do with luck.

I am in the backgammon business and own online server and offline programs (GammonSite and eXtreme Gammon, XG Mobile), Believe me i hear always about luck. Check my App reviews: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/xg-mobile/id536774050?ls=1&mt=8 Half of the people say the program cheats (fortunately, the other half understand the program is just very good). You make you own luck in backgammon: if you pick the move that gives you the most chances to get good dice you will have good dice more often. To the profane it appears that the program is lucky, to the educated one they can see the reason and know it is not due to luck.

[A FONDO]

Loeb is a great driver, for sure one of the best of all times, but you can't deny the fact he hasn't been the best driver this weekend. He just got lucky with Ogier's troubles, otherwise he would've ended 2nd.

sure he can :D :D :D :D :D

[dimviii]

Loeb is a great driver, for sure one of the best of all times, but you can't deny the fact he hasn't been the best driver this weekend. He just got lucky with Ogier's troubles, otherwise he would've ended 2nd.
when Loeb pushed him,Ogier went of the road.Splits dont lie.

[RAS007]

when Loeb pushed him,Ogier went of the road.Splits dont lie.

Yawn.

[A FONDO]

when Loeb pushed him,Ogier went of the road.Splits dont lie.

splits for ss6 tell that loeb pushed and get off the road too

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If anyone is still interested in THIS rally :rolleyes: , SS13 has just started ... :)

[stefanvv]

In your dreams, the fact that Ogier made mistakes is exactly because Loeb was raising the pressure on him. If you look at the splits you can clearly see that Ogier was allready loosing some 7 secs before he went off, loosing about 25 sec extra in the adventure.

That just proves the fact that the problem is the handbrake. He lost more time than his off because of these problems, not mistakes

[smsgrafica]

Ok, then I'll write what you want to read: Loeb was, is and will always be the best driver ever. Ogier should be ashamed to (perhaps) win this years World Championship, because it would only be because Loeb hasn't driven a full season. Well, I tell you that: Loeb has just been a coward not to enter a full season against Ogier and deciding to enter only his favorite events...

[tommeke_B]

Well, I tell you that: Loeb has just been a coward not to enter a full season against Ogier and deciding to enter only his favorite events...Why don't you just write a letter to Mr. Loeb to express you feelings?

[wwbroe]

Ok, then I'll write what you want to read: Loeb was, is and will always be the best driver ever. Ogier should be ashamed to (perhaps) win this years World Championship, because it would only be because Loeb hasn't driven a full season....Well, I tell you that: Loeb has just been a coward not to enter a full season against Ogier and deciding to enter only his favorite events...

Offcourse he is a coward, he always was and allways will be. He is just a very poor driver who allways has the luck at his side and was very, very lucky that he didn't had any competitive drivers when he was having his nine world crowns. Now that he is not lucky anymore he prefers to do only few rally's, but he is lucky again that there is nobody again that can challenge him... Luckily we don't have to follow too much rally's where he is competing, because those are so boring.

[Barreis]

Well, Ogier had his chance for championship in Australia two years ago but failed.

[MikeD]

Invoking Luck to explain driver results is non sense: you made your own luck.

I agree, it's pathetic how a certain buch of people in here use the word "luck" to describe why their favorite driver didn't win and when their favorite driver wins it's because of skills.

There is no luck - neither bad luck or good luck. Life goes up and down but the best makes sure it goes more up than down. That's why Loeb has been the best for so many years, and why Ogier so far is still in a very impressive second place ... but still only second.

[EightGear]

Girls, girls, girls... Stop fighting.

[stefanvv]

Looks like Mikelsen fights Sordo

[wwbroe]

Sordo clearly faster as Prokop, so he is going to pass him in overall standings after this stage.

[smsgrafica]

Well, Ogier had his chance for championship in Australia two years ago but failed.You mean when he was told to slow down from 8th to 11th for Loeb to gain a point?

[Rallyper]

Ostberg?

[rallye-vid]

Ostberg?

No splits of him today

[wwbroe]

You mean when he was told to slow down from 8th to 11th for Loeb to gain a point?

Some people never seem to learn, but then again, ofcourse Ogier would have been the champion that time, it was only due to clear luck that Loeb won it. But i am sure he will win the next 15 championships so everybody can agree that he is the greatest driver ever seen in history. :D
I am allready convinced that he is clearly the best driver ever, so you don't have to convince me anymore......

[stefanvv]

Novikov has no chances for podium

[smsgrafica]

No splits of him todayThese splits are really a pain all season long...

[tommeke_B]

Some people never seem to learn, but then again, ofcourse Ogier would have been the champion that time, it was only due to clear luck that Loeb won it. But i am sure he will win the next 15 championships so everybody can agree that he is the greatest driver ever seen in history. :D

Then someone else will say it was just luck, and the same useless discussion can begin again :D

[Karukera]

not to enter a full season against Ogier

Silly post.
You don't call coward a driver who won Rally Finland, once, twice or more.

You have no clue about what rallying is about.

[Rallyper]

How about any live-TV from PS?

[wwbroe]

Sordo is 30 sec faster as Prokop, so he is passing in front of him in overall classification.

[Barreis]

You mean when he was told to slow down from 8th to 11th for Loeb to gain a point?

I thought when Loeb had that roll. Ogier had his chance at that moment.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

How about any live-TV from PS?

Been searching but S.America TV just showing football ...

And there a lot of fake links on Google... :rolleyes:

[stefanvv]

What a time for Latvala :eek:

[wwbroe]

What a time for JML!!!

[wwbroe]

JML on the podium now, just passed in front of Novikov

[wwbroe]

Let's see if JML can take the power stage as well or is Seb Ogier going to try to take the three points?

[smsgrafica]

My prediction for the Power Stage:
1.) JML


2.) Novikov


3.) Ogier

[Rallyper]

My prediction for PS:

1) Ogier
2) JML
3) Ostberg

[wwbroe]

My prediction for PS: Ogier, Hirvonen, Latvala

[megadrive]

No opinion for Latvala and Novikov for power stage, thier tyres in worn conditions compare to other

[wwbroe]

Power stage about to be going live...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Novik - off ! Lost 40sec .. :(

[A FONDO]

Mikelsen beats Sordo :)

[SashaIF]

Novik - off ! Lost 40sec .. :(

False information!
Just half spin!

[MikeD]

8th win in a row for Loeb in Argentina .... put that in your pibe and smoke it Mr. Ogier ;)

[RAS007]

What a bore.

[Mintexmemory]

Congratulations to Msr Loeb but the championship positions are VW 1-2 and JML appears to be finding his mojo! Looking forward to some great fights this summer - just sort those handbrakes Jost!!

[Barreis]

Championship is finished, Ogier's a champ.

[dimviii]

http://www.forum-rallye.com/uploads/monthly_05_2013/post-3-0-20397300-1367687626.jpg

[Francis44]

http://www.forum-rallye.com/uploads/monthly_05_2013/post-3-0-20397300-1367687626.jpg

What the hell......

I aprecciate your sympathy with Loeb but that's quite horrible, Im sure someone can do better :D .

[T.Maanteiden kuningas]

Loebinen oli rautaa. Respect. Great driver.

[tommeke_B]

What the hell......

I aprecciate your sympathy with Loeb but that's quite horrible, Im sure someone can do better :D .
Indeed, it's horribloeb... :p

[dimviii]

Indeed, it's horribloeb... :p
:D

[Karukera]

Gracias Señor Loeb and congratulations for the win.
Now the question is, who will stop that streak of Sébastiens wins : Mads, JM, Mikko, Dani ?

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJb2FLBCUAArX9Q.jpg:large

[dimviii]

What the hell......

I aprecciate your sympathy with Loeb but that's quite horrible, Im sure someone can do better :D .

:D
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJb1Cc2CYAA_-qx.jpg

[dimviii]

present to Slowson :p

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/936869_10151468052493952_547647326_n.jpg

[Kielder]

What amazing images from today's stages!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmxVCtNS43s

Congratulations to the best driver of 2013 (and some other years before). The penultimate lesson has ended.

http://img.lagaceta.com.ar/fotos/notas/2013/05/04/tmb1_543440_20130504150231.jpg

[A FONDO]

present to Slowson :p

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/936869_10151468052493952_547647326_n.jpg

enjoy your time , because it is for short. what are you gonna do from now on?

[Kielder]

http://www.rallylife.cz/data/imgs/0024937l.jpg
http://i5.minus.com/iu90rhs2YZr3s.jpg
http://i4.minus.com/i0GcE6IInffrS.jpg
http://www.rallylife.cz/data/imgs/0024915l.jpg
http://www.rallylife.cz/data/imgs/0024938l.jpg

[MartijnS]

http://i4.minus.com/i0GcE6IInffrS.jpg


Oh yes!! Great :D

[dimviii]

enjoy your time , because it is for short. what are you gonna do from now on?

Now i have to enjoy a bet i won against some Greek antiLoeb fans at a Greek rally forum,like you.
Then i will wait some other antiLoeb fans(like you) for a bet at France. :D

[A FONDO]

I cant make bets with person who says loeb was faster in this rally

And of course I am not so stupid to bet for final result in a motor sport