Rally Guanajuato Mexico 2013

[smsgrafica]

Hirvonen +4.1s after split 1

[52Paddy]

So Ogier or Hirvonen for the win? One is taking it easy and the other has ruined tyres...

[52Paddy]

Or maybe Ostberg is in prime position.

[Tom206wrc]

Mmmmh Hirvonen 2"9 slower than Latvala on first split :mark:

[smsgrafica]

Ogier +1.3s after split 1

[eestlane]

The road cleaners are fastest at the moment

[Sprocket]

The road cleaners are fastest at the moment

Because they are both on Rally 2 and have nothing to lose pushing.

[WRC3]

The small gap between Ostberg and JML, show how flat out JML was going as number one on the road. Ostberg had nothing to loose and tried for sure that 3 points. And Hirvonen has chance to get 1 point if Ogier slow down, too ...

[Tom206wrc]

Ogier has the best first split to secure one point more... :rolleyes:

[smsgrafica]

Looks like Hirvonen won't get more than 1 extra point, IF he gets it.

[Sprocket]

Neuville looking really slow now

[smsgrafica]

Ogier best time after split 2! -0.5s

[Sprocket]

Ogier now pushing for the PS win

[Tom206wrc]

Now Ogier goes for the 3 points scoring(best second split)... :mark:

[smsgrafica]

Hirvonen +7.4s after split 3

[smsgrafica]

Ogier -4.0s after split 3

[smsgrafica]

Hirvonen: 13'12"3

3rd best time so far

[WRC3]

Ogier pushes as we knew that for many many years by Loeb ... But I am not sure if Loeb risk that after he leads in WRC like the new Champion.

[smsgrafica]

Ogier: 13'00"5

1st and 3 points for him!
Ostberg 2points, JML 1 point

[T.Maanteiden kuningas]

Hanaaaaa Ogier!!!!! Hana hana!

[Tom206wrc]

Ogier 6" faster than Östberg :mark:

[satukata]

Ogier Champion 2013 Amen!

[Bartek]

Another lost game for Hirvonen.

[52Paddy]

You can't deny Ogier his talent though. I've got my fingers and toes crossed it's not going to be an "out of the chip-pan into the fire" scenario i.e. Loeb leaves after dominating for years and Ogier takes over...WRC really needs some bad-ass to put the challenge to Ogier.

[WRC1]

wow! what a demontration from ogier!! with 3 minutes lead he take also power stage full points......

congratulations ogier and VW

[Sprocket]

I can't say it was a bad rally for Hirvonen, he's picked up his season in Mexico and frankly the only driver to finish any where near Ogier, this despite the puncture yesterday.

Nobody is near Ogier and VW now, I wanted to wait for this rally before being sure, but it all goes Ogier's way this season.

[catty]

I can't say it was a bad rally for Hirvonen, he's picked up his season in Mexico and frankly the only driver to finish any where near Ogier, this despite the puncture yesterday.

Nobody is near Ogier and VW now, I wanted to wait for this rally before being sure, but it all goes Ogier's way this season.
Ah come on, Hirvonen was miles behind even before the puncture.
He's the No 1 driver in the world champion team from the last what, 9 Years!!!

[smsgrafica]

I can't say it was a bad rally for Hirvonen, he's picked up his season in Mexico and frankly the only driver to finish any where near Ogier, this despite the puncture yesterday.
Don't forget Ostberg was ahead of him before his drama. Hirvonen has the better car and much more experience than Mads, but he still doesn't manage to be quick. He just doesn't have the talent to be more than a good driver. He's constant, yes, but lacks raw speed to be a winner.

[smsgrafica]

"Sensor problem for Seb & Julien who repared on the road section be4 the PS. They score the 3 bonus points in front of Østberg and Latvala."
@SebOgier

[smsgrafica]

"Drama for Ogier on the road section after SS21, a throttle sensor issue, took 20 mins to fix but all ok now!!!"
@The_Rally_Guru

[T.Maanteiden kuningas]

Another lost game for Hirvonen.


What game he lost? Monopoly?

Hopia ei ole häpiä.

[Sprocket]

No I mean with the puncture he was not overhauled by Neuville, I know Mikko had no hope to beat Ogier, he knows it too from attitude in interviews yesterday. Sad but Ogier will now easily dominate, I can't see any challenge to him at all, other than couple of Loeb rounds left to run.

[catty]

What game he lost? Monopoly?

Hopia ei ole häpiä.
Theres plenty of shame in getting Silver when you finish about a day behind the winner

[smsgrafica]

http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/fileadmin/user_upload/CMP/WRC/saison_2013/Mexiko/2013_03_08/VW-WRC13-03-RB2-0564.jpg

[Sprocket]

Theres plenty of shame in getting Silver when you finish about a day behind the winner

So plenty of shame for all other drivers involved for finishing either further behind or on Rally 2 lol

[smsgrafica]

No stage times on wrc.com :o hplease:

[smsgrafica]

Now, here they are!

[Sprocket]

No stage times on wrc.com :o hplease:

They are there now

[WRC3]

Rally Mexico 2013 ambiente - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2qXpMPYQM_A)

[smsgrafica]

Congrats to Neuville for his 1st podium

[smsgrafica]

And that's two-in-a-row for Ogier! Terrific drive!

[mm1]

Actualy Atkinson didn't do too bad in the end. Congrats to Ogier, excellent performance!

[smsgrafica]

Standings:

1.) Ogier 74
2.) Loeb 43
3.) Hirvonen 30
4.) Sordo 27
5.) Ostberg 26
6.) Neuville 25
7.) Latvala 15
8.) Prokop 14

[WRC1]

congratulations for Ogier and VW, without the bad luck for Latvala (and this time it was really bad luck) it could have been a double win very easy!

3:28 delay for hirvonen...what a shame for number1 driver in champions car...

bad luck also for östberg and novikov from pure speed at this rallye the best citroen pilot would have been 5th....i think that say´s all about strenght of Citroen World Rally Team these days...

[awake27]

Ogier-VW will dominate like Loeb-Citroen never did before. Especially since the road position rules changed last year to the current format from the previous of 2008-2011. So all it's left is where he and VW will clinch the titles mathematically and if and how many "home-run" wins they will do.

[mousti]

Final standings and congrats to Thierry!!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/537712_435824423163371_1862380685_n.jpg

[A FONDO]

bad luck also for östberg and novikov from pure speed at this rallye the best citroen pilot would have been 5th....i think that say´s all about strenght of Citroen World Rally Team these days...

Yes, big shame, and it gets bigger when you imagine they could have got 1-3 today! On your own you can harm yourself more than anybody else can harm you!

[Francis44]

Congrats to Ogier, he always had speed but it seems now he is also able to be consistent.

I think Citroen may have now realised that it will be very hard for them to have another driver's championship, however I think they will be easily amused by the manufacteurs crown and I just wish Latvala puts it together for the rest of the year because if he does we might have an interesting battle. I can't imagine what that would feel like for Citroen, losing the manu for VW in their first year.

[dimviii]

Congrats to Ogier and vw for the win.Mikko seems that he is nowhere near his pace like previous years.Dissapointing Sordo too.
Latvala dissapointing too,after the 1st day.
Ostberg not lucky,but definetely the driver who evolutes more.
Roll on Portugal.

[A FONDO]

My drivers and donkeys of the race:

Drivers: Ogier - perfect in every aspect; even pushed for victory in PS when 3+ mins and 40+ points ahead of Hirvo, something Loeb refused to do; Neuville - second consecutive steady drive, that's what he has to show this year!

Donkeys: Hirvo, Sordo (needless to explain); Prokop - even with DMACK he shouldn't have been firmly behind Block and Guerra IMO; M-sport for maintenance of Mad's car, MI too.

[Bartek]

Maybe that was last rally for Kościuszko with MINI, his sponsors will talk with MI about their cars and their conditions

[Francis44]

Maybe that was last rally for Kościuszko with MINI, his sponsors will talk with MI about their cars and their conditions

Hopefully they do talk. Perhaps it's a tad more expensive to rent a Fiesta or DS3 but in the long run it will come out cheaper.

[awake27]

Congrats to Ogier, he always had speed but it seems now he is also able to be consistent.

I think Citroen may have now realised that it will be very hard for them to have another driver's championship, however I think they will be easily amused by the manufacteurs crown and I just wish Latvala puts it together for the rest of the year because if he does we might have an interesting battle. I can't imagine what that would feel like for Citroen, losing the manu for VW in their first year.
Now is that we have interesting battle for the manufacturers. If Latvala puts it together/doesn't have more bad luck/etc will be just game over and in that front. VW is just in other planet, first year, first 3 rallies. And still has development potential, imagine when they will bring the next evolution! Better transform the WRC series to VW Cup and add more Polos for other drivers because we will not see a fight from Abu Dhabi or M-Sport.

[Rally Talent]

Where did you get that???

Drunk?? :p :

[Barreis]

VW is good but it's about citroen drivers who are not on the level of Ogier except Loeb.

[stefanvv]

Congrats to Ogier and VW. Brilliant performance by them. I see if Latvala hadn't that bad luck from first proper stage, this could easily become 1-2 finish, because looks like Latvala is comfortable in the car on gravel. VW appears to very strong, Ogier taking the PS points without taking risks just show how certain he feels with the Polo.

About the Gate-gate which has turned big discussion here :) It was said on WRR at the moment happened that it is organisers responsibility to secure these things and IMHO they just corrected their own mistake. Ogier could easily live without the time given back and I didn't see any contest made by VW or him.

From other drivers I can distinguish Ostberg & Neuville only. Great performance by them doing their own Rally, such a shame what happened to Ostberg's Ford really.

[stefanvv]

Rally Guanajuato Mexico: Stage 21 ::: Free Sport Live Streams / Videos (http://www.laola1.tv/en/int/motorsports/wrc/rally-guanajuato-mexico-stage-21/video/492-3056-113882.html)
Friday & Saturday highlights on wrc.com - World Rally Championship - Video - Highlights (http://www.wrc.com/video/highlights)

[oyunbozan]

Ford and BMW are making a profit - PSA aren't (see link to their 2012 financial results). Anyway, motorsport is a choice and if BMW and/or Ford chose to leave the WRC, it's because there are no benefits from it in the economical enviroment they are in. After all, they know better than you what is the right strategy for their brand.

But I do agree that DTM is crap and I have never understod why BMW often run away from proper competition and only do these second or third calls series.

Peugeot SA, UG:PAR company performance - FT.com (http://markets.ft.com/research/Markets/Tearsheets/Financials?s=UG:PAR)

go to the end of the page you sent please. they are not loosing money. their profit got just a little less. that cannot be a true reason for them to aim lower. this page is not a place economics lecture to talk about benefits and environments. PSA sells A HELL LOT of cars. mostly cheap cars. they have special models for different markets that you cannot imagine to be sold in Europe. in a showroom here, i can see 206+, 207 and 208 at the same time. and their awful sedan remakes without proper accessories and safety equipment. Citroen sells at least 5 models on c4/307 platform.

motorsport is not a choice for ford, with its rally history. i point you lancia. focus mk1 rescued ford..

and then, when you create such a car like JCW WRC, you have to back it up, or your reputation fells so bad. if you read all the pages of this rally, people say "sh*t car", that is what happens.


today, i never pronounce toyota, they left WRC for F1 and fail big time.




People throwing stones at cars ??? mmmmh a classic in southern american rallies :rolleyes:

mexico is at north america

[dimviii]

lolol
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BFBOCiVCEAA0skr.jpg

[MikeD]

go to the end of the page you sent please. they are not loosing money. their profit got just a little less

Wrong - their net-income is negative - they are loosing money big time. They have been loosing money and over the last 5 years they have lost 88% of their market value (I think you are looking at revenue, which isn't an indicator of earnings). PSA has an EPS of -18,1.

I think the rest of your mail is rubbish to be honest, so let's just stop it here.

[eestlane]

@voiceofrally: Looks like @SebOgier had an accident on way to podium. Banged his head on a roller shutter and badly cut just above eye. Stitches needed!

[Sprocket]

Day 2 in English Part 1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQF18ICvuhk&feature=share&list=PLzcEvTimoi 5JdCTahQAEomGYouhSRUbz_

[Sprocket]

Part 2


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWuf2QuKOwc&feature=share&list=PLzcEvTimoi 5JdCTahQAEomGYouhSRUbz_

[Sprocket]

@voiceofrally: Looks like @SebOgier had an accident on way to podium. Banged his head on a roller shutter and badly cut just above eye. Stitches needed!

Maybe his head grew so big it didn't fit under the shutter!

Only kidding, deserved win and hope it doesn't spoil his looks.

[eestlane]

https://twitter.com/voiceofrally/status/310857939986546689/photo/1

[faateris]

Ogier is so dominant, this season could be so boaring..... :(
Atkinson did good job. He must drive more WRC events.
What is wrong with Ford's, lot of technical problems i Mexico?

[Langdale Forest]

Ogier makes all the other drivers look like sick dogs.


Ogier now has a massive lead in the championship, no hope for Latvala to win this years championship.

[Rallyper]

Ogier makes all the other drivers look like sick dogs.


Ogier now has a massive lead in the championship, no hope for Latvala to win this years championship.

Disagree - when all cars works properly and shrinks had fixed some of the drivers heads, it will become more equal.

BTW why doesn´t anyone talk about Novikov, doing a perfect rally until sh*t happened??

[faateris]

Maybe JML go to VW was mistake. In Ford he could fight for title?
Novikov is too young and...... Errors will be all season.

[Sprocket]

Novikov is improving a lot, it was ECU problem destroyed his rally early on.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

No luck again for the top Fords of Ostberg and Novikov.

Ford need to keep the faith with these guys as they have the raw speed, and especially Ostberg, the ability and consistency.

I think only Ford can challenge VW as Mikko & Sordo dont seem to believe they can win for Citroen anymore.

[Allyc85]

Maybe JML go to VW was mistake. In Ford he could fight for title?
Novikov is too young and...... Errors will be all season.

JML will never be champion. He makes too many mistakes is far too mentally weak to be one.

[Langdale Forest]

JML will never be champion. He makes too many mistakes is far too mentally weak to be one.

Hirvonen will never be champion, he is not fast enough and relies on team orders and other people mistakes too much.

[Mintexmemory]

Just back home after taking my dear ol Mum out for afternoon tea, and what do I find an epidemic of knee jerk reactions! Maybe some counselling is required! I have always said a) that VW would show a level of planning that would make previous standards look second rate. b) that Citroen were the first team to sign joint No 2s and c) That to dismiss JML, when he has proven to be Ogier's equal for speed in the past, is slightly premature. I expect Portugal to be a big fight for VW supremacy with no team favourite BS (YET)

[catty]

No luck again for the top Fords of Ostberg and Novikov.

Ford need to keep the faith with these guys as they have the raw speed, and especially Ostberg, the ability and consistency.

I think only Ford can challenge VW as Mikko & Sordo dont seem to believe they can win for Citroen anymore.
Its not bad luck for ford, they are not competing in the WRC - it is M-Sports poorly designed cars being run on a budget that causes their repeated parts failures.
M-Sport dont have any faith in their drivers, they only have faith in the money they bring.

M-Sport will not challenge VW because they do not have the money to develop their car or the drivers to develop it for them

[bluuford]

It is nice to hear different opinions, but when the opinions are taken from the cosmic dust hanging around our heads and minimal knowledge on the sport is interpreted as the ultimate knowledge on how to create machine that never stops and never requires any fuel then it is not nice, interesting, funny etc. It is just lame.

[Allyc85]

So Msport are developing the new engine upgrade for free? Bargain!

[Mintexmemory]

JML will never be champion. He makes too many mistakes is far too mentally weak to be one.
20 smackers says he will be before 2020 ;)

[Kielder]

wow! what a demontration from ogier!! with 3 minutes lead he take also power stage full points......
congratulations ogier and VW

It's amazing that he even won the last stage of the rally (SS23 Super Special 5) when he only needed to drive it as a tourist driver.


@voiceofrally: Looks like @SebOgier had an accident on way to podium. Banged his head on a roller shutter and badly cut just above eye. Stitches needed!

Or was he riding a mountain bike? :p

[MAXLD]

Interesting shakedown, this one is going to be interesting to follow Live...

- Will Ogier provide a good performance with the Polo on this type of surface and road position?
- Starting later than Ogier, can the young Ford and Citroen drivers take the advantage? Will they be able to handle the pressure (and stay on the road) if Ogier eventually starts to pull ballistic times? They will have Ogier's splits by the time they start, and during the stage...
- Can Hirvonen finally deliver a win or a podium...? He'll be in deep trouble if he doesn't... with that road position he has to provide at least a considerable amount of stage wins.

Let's see if we get a proper old fashioned full throttle fight. Sainz has plenty of experience in that department, he surely can give some advice to Ogier on how to drive under those conditions (Resumen Rally Portugal 1998 Canal + - YouTube (http://youtu.be/D92ZUxsFdfk?t=36m42s)).

So, answering my own pre-rally topics:

- Ogier destroyed once again. VW modest comments and expectations went down the drain for good. With this type of commitment and pace by him, they are clearly the top contenders for the tittle in their first year and I don't think they'll have a very hard time to do it.
- Ostberg surely had some good pace, but unfortunately the car let him down. Neuville was very good and he can go faster if he pushes a bit more (I would encourage him more if I was Malcolm). Sordo, quite a disappointment... but to be honest I wasn't expecting much of him anyway, I think it might be his final season, even if he proves to be fast on tarmac.
- Hirvonen finally got a podium but miles away from Ogier... and this when he had the best road position of them all. He did get some consistency this time though, but it's just another nightmare for him, again he has to lead a team against a much faster driver. The difference is, theoretically he has the best car this time... the Citroen should (and might be for "someone" at the wheel) the best car of the pack, and although he was fast in this rally, it wasn't enough to get even a chance for the win.

Of the 23 stages, we can wrap up a few things:

Stage Wins:
* Hirvonen - 2
* Neuville - 1
* Ogier - 16
* Ostberg -4

Stage Podiums:
* Hirvonen - 15
* Neuville - 9
* Ogier - 20
* Ostberg -11
* Novikov - 2
* Sordo - 4
* Latvala - 6
* Al-Attiyah - 1
* Atkinson - 1

Not so bad in podiums for Hirvonen, but... of those 15 podiums:
in 7 of those, he was 9~11s slower than Ogier
in 2 of those, he was 13~15s slower than Ogier
(not counting the one he lost 2min)

was faster than him:
in 2 stages around 3~5s
in 2 stages around 0~1s
in 1 stage around 17s (stage 21)

not much left to say.

Ogier had this event pretty much controlled and if he doesn't catch any problem with the car in Portugal I think he has that one also in the bag, considering his fantastic performance there the last 2 times with Citroen. The possibility of rain might have a word to say though.

[Kielder]

Ogier interviewed on L'Equipe: http://www.lequipe.fr/Rallye/Actualites/Ogier-on-sera-dur-a-battre/356039 … (http://www.lequipe.fr/Rallye/Actualites/Ogier-on-sera-dur-a-battre/356039)

He thinks that Osterg is his current and future rival (no word about anyone else). I remember a TV interview in 2010 in which Loeb guessed that Ogier would be his rival on the following seasons. This kind of drivers recognise amongst themselves.

[Kielder]

The usual wallpapers :) :

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Polo-R-WRC-at-the-Rally-Mexico-2013-16.jpg
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Polo-R-WRC-at-the-Rally-Mexico-2013-15.jpg
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Polo-R-WRC-at-the-Rally-Mexico-2013-14.jpg
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Polo-R-WRC-at-the-Rally-Mexico-2013-13.jpg

[Sprocket]

Ogier interviewed on L'Equipe: http://www.lequipe.fr/Rallye/Actualites/Ogier-on-sera-dur-a-battre/356039 … (http://www.lequipe.fr/Rallye/Actualites/Ogier-on-sera-dur-a-battre/356039)

He thinks that Osterg is his current and future rival (no word about anybody else). I remember a TV interview in 2010 in which Loeb guessed that Ogier would be his rival in the next seasons. This kind of drivers recognise amongst themselves.

Could be a little bit of psychology going on here to make Hirvonen feel even worse? I think that may be just a little part of it. We do not even know if Mads would have held off Hirvonen. It was all to play for when Ostberg retired and Hirvonen went into cruise mode.

The massive lead then built by Ogier and subsequent stage wins, just seems to be what I've said about Ogier. He cannot back-off, he has to keep the same rhythm. If he can keep it on the road he will be unstoppable, I've still some doubts he can do so for every or enough rallies this season. If he does manage to keep the same pace without a major off, it will be a truly epic win of the title for him.

[Fri]

pictures from saturday and sunday:
rallysport.hu - Monte Carlo Rallye 2013 - shakedown (http://www.rallysport.hu/images/2013/photo/wrc/03_mexico/04_szo-vas/index.htm)

[Jafry]

http://www.rally-mania.cz/fotogalerie/2013/1128/1128_rally_guanajuato_mexico_2013_71adc49a2c.jpg

http://www.rally-mania.cz/fotogalerie/2013/1128/1128_rally_guanajuato_mexico_2013_72a8dcea47.jpg

http://www.rally-mania.cz/fotogalerie/2013/1128/1128_rally_guanajuato_mexico_2013_c631fdd709.jpg

http://www.rally-mania.cz/fotogalerie/2013/1128/1128_rally_guanajuato_mexico_2013_17eed74e41.jpg

More photos from Mexico HERE (http://www.rally-mania.cz/photogallery.php?id=1128)

[Mirek]

The massive lead then built by Ogier and subsequent stage wins, just seems to be what I've said about Ogier. He cannot back-off, he has to keep the same rhythm. If he can keep it on the road he will be unstoppable, I've still some doubts he can do so for every or enough rallies this season. If he does manage to keep the same pace without a major off, it will be a truly epic win of the title for him.

Last year he started the season with a massive off when he tried miracles with the S2000 car - it didn't make him any slower.

[Kalm]

The beginning of this season made me wonder, what is the biggest margin in a title win ? What was Loebs ?

[spiderem]

wahou, didn't get much time to follow this rally, but it looks like ogier was just 1 level in front from everybody... 3 rallys so far, and what a demonstration, not very promising for an exciting season...
Maybe Mikkelsen will bring us some excitement! (and challenge ogier???) as for the remaining drivers... Nobody seems to have the speed or the car to match ogier.
What the f*** is happening in Mikko's head?

[Allyc85]

20 smackers says he will be before 2020 ;)

Go on then!

[bluuford]

The beginning of this season made me wonder, what is the biggest margin in a title win ? What was Loebs ?

Recent biggest margin (last 5 years I guess) was definitely GB 2011. Latvala won by 3:42.9 in front of Ostberg

[A FONDO]

Recent biggest margin (last 5 years I guess) was definitely GB 2011. Latvala won by 3:42.9 in front of Ostberg

he means points . 2010 were 105, before that was the old system (10-8....)

[smsgrafica]

...I've still some doubts he can do so for every or enough rallies this season...
C'mon, you're talking about a guy who finished the season with 41 points driving a Skoda S2000 and retiring only twice (one driving error on the 1st rally and one mechanical issue on the last).

[Kalm]

Jap, I was thinking about points... thanks. when Ogier continues like this, I think we might see a new record.. Ogier just isnt that kind of a guy who backs off, ever, when Loeb was way ahead of everybody, he just controlled things, and was taking it a litte bit easier, like when he crashed and didnt take the rally 2, but decided to go see the rally on motorbike with his friends, I think when Ogier will be in this kind of situation, he will certanly take the rally 2 , and still wins the rally... and the powerstage...

[Rautiainen]

Helloooooooo :) )
Is there a preview for Rally Mexico 2013? I found only for Day 1 (part 1 and 2)... :(

[smsgrafica]

Helloooooooo :) )
Is there a preview for Rally Mexico 2013? I found only for Day 1 (part 1 and 2)... :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_km2l0qJfQ

My bad, it was removed... But you can see the second part of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWiYSvp7094

[rallyfun]

Ogier interviewed on L'Equipe: Rallye- WRC - MEX - Ogier : «On sera dur à battre» (http://www.lequipe.fr/Rallye/Actualites/Ogier-on-sera-dur-a-battre/356039%20%E2%80%A6)

He thinks that Osterg is his current and future rival (no word about anyone else). I remember a TV interview in 2010 in which Loeb guessed that Ogier would be his rival on the following seasons. This kind of drivers recognise amongst themselves.
That's not surprise is it? You wouldn't expect him to claim any Citroen's driver as future rival.

[Sprocket]

wahou, didn't get much time to follow this rally, but it looks like ogier was just 1 level in front from everybody... 3 rallys so far, and what a demonstration, not very promising for an exciting season...
Maybe Mikkelsen will bring us some excitement! (and challenge ogier???) as for the remaining drivers... Nobody seems to have the speed or the car to match ogier.
What the f*** is happening in Mikko's head?

I would guess Mikko is pretty much setting himself up to be second best again this season. Shame, I know I go on about him a bit (well someone has to be a Mikko fan) but he should take more away from this rally than just that. He was totally lacklustre in the Monte, had a disastrous rally Sweden, at least here in Mexico even if he was no match for Ogier he got some points and showed some moments such as qualifying where there was hope.

I think the same pretty much applies to all the 'old school' of drivers, (JML, Mikko, Sordo etc) all they can pretty much do is build on their own performances this year.

Really I don't know exactly who is going to challenge Ogier right now at all. If he runs away with the season, fair enough, I've liked Ogier from the start and won't begrudge him the win. I think even Ogier himself though would want a little more competition for the title than it appears we are going to get right now.

[faateris]

JML is very fast, but have too much bad luck (every year :( ). To be champion, it's not enough to be just a fast....
Maybe "good" weather conditions could help other guys in fight with Ogier and VW.....
I'm really surprised, how "fast" is Hirvonen. Is it possible, that DS3 is not for his driving style, like now JML=VW Polo?

[drive]

WRC 2013 Round 3 Mexico Preview [HD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoV_rbIvU3U

[smsgrafica]

You've got to give JML a bit more time to adapt to the Polo. I'm sure he'll be better than what he's shown so far.

Hirvonen on the other hand has reached the top of his game with the DS3. I'm afraid this is all he can do with it.

[Sprocket]

JML is very fast, but have too much bad luck (every year :( ). To be champion, it's not enough to be just a fast....
Maybe "good" weather conditions could help other guys in fight with Ogier and VW.....
I'm really surprised, how "fast" is Hirvonen. Is it possible, that DS3 is not for his driving style, like now JML=VW Polo?

I can not see JML being the man to challenge Ogier for the title, he's not at home in the VW, well adrift in the points, with all respect seems to have major head problems (which won't be helped by having Ogier as a team mate), but most of all will VW really allow a battle between their own team? Look what it did for Citroen in the past.

I don't think Mikko is really happy in DS3 or Citroen team, too big a task for him to wear Loeb's boots, lets remember for what 9 years he was second best to Loeb, really I think Mikko's time maybe came and went now.

[T.Maanteiden kuningas]

VW VIDEO:

Volkswagen Motorsport -*2013 WRC Rally Mexico: Reports (http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/index.php?id=156&L=1#entryId=0_v4o4i720)

Look at 1:24 -> What are those "wawes" in windscreen, heating wires for heated windscreen?!

[dimviii]

VW VIDEO:

Volkswagen Motorsport -*2013 WRC Rally Mexico: Reports (http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/index.php?id=156&L=1#entryId=0_v4o4i720)

Look at 1:24 -> What are those "wawes" in windscreen, heating wires for heated windscreen?!

yep!

[T.Maanteiden kuningas]

Thanks! Is Citroen, Mini and Ford using same system?

[dimviii]

Thanks! Are Citroen and Ford using same system?

i am not sure,but can t believe that a wrc car hasn t got a heated screen when good grN cars have it.

[T.Maanteiden kuningas]

Okay. Again I learned something, thx.

[Kielder]

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Polo-R-WRC-at-the-Rally-Mexico-2013-17.jpg
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Polo-R-WRC-at-the-Rally-Mexico-2013-19.jpg

[Francis44]

i am not sure,but can t believe that a wrc car hasn t got a heated screen when good grN cars have it.

I am pretty sure I've seen something like that in the Fiesta WRC aswell. Dimviii is right, plus that is quite important feature. In some videos of Monte Carlo you could clearly see in the DS3's aswell that there were some kind of heater for windshield.

[RallySport365]

WRC Photos and Videos see my signature!

[Sprocket]

Day 3 in English

Part 1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EtdrbOPcyQ&feature=share&list=PLzcEvTimoi 5JdCTahQAEomGYouhSRUbz_

[Sprocket]

Part 2


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSUv_JpQ_qc&feature=share&list=PLzcEvTimoi 5JdCTahQAEomGYouhSRUbz_

[52Paddy]

Really I don't know exactly who is going to challenge Ogier right now at all. If he runs away with the season, fair enough, I've liked Ogier from the start and won't begrudge him the win. I think even Ogier himself though would want a little more competition for the title than it appears we are going to get right now.

I guess the last piece of hope the other drivers/teams can hold out for is that VW struggle to develop the car in-season. How likely is this? Not very in my opinion. And, since the other teams have catching up to do already, VW don't need to develop an evolution so quickly.

[Sprocket]

I guess the last piece of hope the other drivers/teams can hold out for is that VW struggle to develop the car in-season. How likely is this? Not very in my opinion. And, since the other teams have catching up to do already, VW don't need to develop an evolution so quickly.

Yep it doesn't seem likely the other teams will bridge the gap, car and driver seem unbeatable right now. I did wonder if the VW was particularly good with the altitude in Mexico and Portugal might be a little more even. Then I think back to Sweden and think, no, maybe VW + Ogier faster whatever the conditions!

I think there is now also an Ogier factor. He was always quick but sometimes not consistent at the front in the past. He has come back into the top level of WRC though with a thirst for winning and tons of confidence and self belief.

Got to say despite the differences in performance right across the board with the drivers, I really enjoyed this years Mexico!

[Kielder]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/150434_428850533874648_896530171_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/549925_491931777535877_1700335890_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/602075_491931914202530_126097614_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/734544_428850347208000_415385036_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/482885_491931884202533_642315960_n.jpg

[RJM]

I think jari-matti and hirvonen i have made big mistakes leaving ford... When I think about it, it reminds me of mcrae going to citoen from ford, he didnt really have the same pace, it seems that fords are easier to drive on the limit and that citroens and now vw (as develoved by ex citroen ogier) only suit a certain driving style. Something seems strange to me, hirvonen seemed much more competitive before he drove for citroen, and now jari-matti doesnt look comfortable, I dont think that it takes so long to adapt to a different car, not with his experience.

[catty]

I think jari-matti and hirvonen i have made big mistakes leaving ford... When I think about it, it reminds me of mcrae going to citoen from ford, he didnt really have the same pace, it seems that fords are easier to drive on the limit and that citroens and now vw (as develoved by ex citroen ogier) only suit a certain driving style. Something seems strange to me, hirvonen seemed much more competitive before he drove for citroen, and now jari-matti doesnt look comfortable, I dont think that it takes so long to adapt to a different car, not with his experience.
Its not quite that simple.
Both drivers came to Ford as pay drivers and left earning minimal wages. They wanted to make a proper living from rallying and lets not forget - there is no Ford team anymore, just the M-Sport privateer squad

[RJM]

It doesnt matter about wages, im talking about there speed... Ok its not official Ford but m-sport has the same budget as last season and if jari was still there he would be at the front as last year.

[Rallyper]

When you get paid you have the pressure. That´s the difference.

[MikeD]

It doesnt matter about wages, im talking about there speed... Ok its not official Ford but m-sport has the same budget as last season...

No, M-Sport definately doesn't have the same budget as last season. Now M-Sport have to cover all expences themselves through sponsorship, whereas Ford Motor Co. in previous years covered a lot development expences plus acted as a sponsor moneywise at the same time.

I think a part of Hirvonens problem is that he lacks the common setup cooperation he and Loeb shared last year. With Sordo it's not the same as he's isn't as good a gravel driver. Since this is Citroën's last year in the WRC they will properly end up trying just to defend their Manufacturers title since JML is bound to keep throwing points away in that championship. The drivers' title looks like a lost battle at the moment.

[Sprocket]

No, M-Sport definately doesn't have the same budget as last season. Now M-Sport have to cover all expences themselves through sponsorship, whereas Ford Motor Co. in previous years covered a lot development expences plus acted as a sponsor moneywise at the same time.

I think a part of Hirvonens problem is that he lacks the common setup cooperation he and Loeb shared last year. With Sordo it's not the same as he's isn't as good a gravel driver. Since this is Citroën's last year in the WRC they will properly end up trying just to defend their Manufacturers title since JML is bound to keep throwing points away in that championship. The drivers' title looks like a lost battle at the moment.

I can see the link in with Loeb's setup, but Hirvonen did not complain about the car once, in fact he seemed really happy with it. He just could not drive it fast enough to challenge Ogier in the VW. I honestly think Hirvonen had a proper go at taking the challenge to Ogier this time too, rather than sitting back and hoping for trouble up front. He did mention going less sideways to be faster, which sounds like the car not surprisingly suits the cleaner Loeb style of driving. It's why I don't really see anything other than Ogier collecting practically full points for the rest of the season. I've a feeling even Loeb would have struggled to keep Ogier in his sights in Mexico, he certainly gave up chasing in Sweden.

[Kielder]

I never post about this guy, but... WRC by Ken Block:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/541510_10151380187423952_2130533870_n.png


http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/549345_10151363375905765_73225947_n.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYkm6Jq2R2c

[Sprocket]

Block did good in Mexico, wish he would commit to more WRC rounds, he has a knack for putting the fun back into the sport.

[Rallyper]

I think most of the difference is about cars. If Mikko did a proper rally with no mistakes and Ogier still in front on gravel, it sure also as a part have to do with car.
Setup? No, Citroen for sure has files with setups for all types of conditions after Loeb has gone.

[52Paddy]

I think most of the difference is about cars. If Mikko did a proper rally with no mistakes and Ogier still in front on gravel, it sure also as a part have to do with car.
Setup? No, Citroen for sure has files with setups for all types of conditions after Loeb has gone.

Cars vs Driving style perhaps? Mikko's approach to driving was very different than Loeb. I don't think Mikko has that precision that Loeb and Ogier seem to possess and, maybe, the Citroen needs a more clinical driving style to get quick times. Is Mikko a case of: can't teach an old dog new tricks?

[Mirek]

I think most of the difference is about cars. If Mikko did a proper rally with no mistakes and Ogier still in front on gravel, it sure also as a part have to do with car.
Setup? No, Citroen for sure has files with setups for all types of conditions after Loeb has gone.

People said the same when Mikko was driving Ford however no change came when he switched to Citroën. Is JML faster now than with Ford? No, he isn't. How about the past? How come Tommi won four titles in a car which others struggled with? It's too simple to say that winners win because of the car. It's often opposite.

[Sprocket]

People said the same when Mikko was driving Ford however no change came when he switched to Citroën. Is JML faster now than with Ford? No, he isn't. How about the past? How come Tommi won four titles in a car which others struggled with? It's too simple to say that winners win because of the car. It's often opposite.

I think also a combination of right car right driver at the right time. Now it is Ogier and the VW, for a long time it was Loeb in any Citroen! I think in the past Citroen had little to do to stay one step ahead of Ford, now there is a manufacturer who will leave nothing to chance and the right driver to get the wins. So to me Citroen need to raise their game, though I think they will instead now just fade out of the WRC.

[rayh_mx]

I haven't had time to bring here my photos... but i leave this one
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8517/8558238589_a6ab8f5f09.jpg

[rayh_mx]

well... another one :D

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8251/8558249365_a883f5e08a.jpg

[Fomchenkov Andrey]

Photo: Rally Guanajuato Mexico 2013 (http://www.rallysport.ru/gallery.php?album=283)

http://www.rallysport.ru/newwr/uploads/albums/big/001342962.jpg

http://www.rallysport.ru/newwr/uploads/albums/big/001l601176.jpg

http://www.rallysport.ru/newwr/uploads/albums/big/001c880628.jpg

http://www.rallysport.ru/newwr/uploads/albums/big/001n521191.jpg

[dimviii]

wow!
http://www.rallysport.ru/newwr/uploads/albums/big/008a554652.jpghttp://www.rallysport.ru/newwr/uploads/albums/big/001m341742.jpg

[dimviii]

nice video from Andre Lanadinho about Mexico rally

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5L_XH-i5SGU#!

[Mirek]

Same corner, watch suspension.
http://www.autosport.cz/img/fotografie/825af6056b2bb7ed356df1ac21686165.jpg
http://www.autosport.cz/img/fotografie/e93c1bb816b0a84cf406575eb25e42b0.jpg

[stefanvv]

We can beat Ogier | Mads Ostberg Blog | Page 1 | WRC News | Mar 2013 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/world+rally/blog/188902/1/81069/we_can_beat_ogier.html)

"...Sadly, it was us that had the car issues on Saturday morning. It was just unbelievably bad luck and I couldn't believe it.

The initial clutch problem in SS14 – the first test of the second leg - was frustrating, and we would have lost a bit of time on hairpin corners, but it wouldn't have ended the rally for us. But then on the road section to SS15, the second test of the day, we had a warning on the dash and my heart immediately sank. It was an electrical problem and although Jonas [Andersson – my co-driver] and I tried our hardest to fix it – in constant contact with our engineer Nige – there was nothing we could do.

I was so frustrated that I kicked the car, and really hurt my foot. It shows how strong the Fiesta RS WRC is, as my foot definitely lost that one!..."

úp cho ngÃ*y cu?i tu?n nÃ*o :D

úp cho ngÃ*y cu?i tu?n nÃ*o :D

[Sprocket]

Same corner, watch suspension.
http://www.autosport.cz/img/fotografie/825af6056b2bb7ed356df1ac21686165.jpg
http://www.autosport.cz/img/fotografie/e93c1bb816b0a84cf406575eb25e42b0.jpg


A picture says a thousand words! VW straighter in corner, Citroen more sideways, clearly the VW suspension has much larger travel and better traction then results. Add it up over enough corners over several days, must be significant.

[bluuford]

Imagine now that there is a sharp stone on that corner 10 cm right from VW wheel. Which suspension is more protected? Citroen or VW? By making longer suspension travel you make it also more prone to different obstacles. Could it be one reaon Why JM retired in Mexico?

[stefanvv]

http://www.autosport.cz/img/fotografie/825af6056b2bb7ed356df1ac21686165.jpghttp://www.tapetus.pl/obrazki/n/128149_gepard-bieg.jpghttp://www.autosport.cz/img/fotografie/e93c1bb816b0a84cf406575eb25e42b0.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Turtle_land_gr.JPG

[Fly_Half]

Not sure why Andre has changed his editing style, his images have a slight 'pasty' feel to them these days possibly through too much shadow recovery. Still the best WRC photographer though.

[danon]

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/8803/refpp.jpg

[Kielder]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=524927590892755

[OldF]

A picture says a thousand words! VW straighter in corner, Citroen more sideways, clearly the VW suspension has much larger travel and better traction then results. Add it up over enough corners over several days, must be significant.

I don’t think the suspension travel is so important in cornering because due to weight transfer the outer wheels have to take care of the traction. Of course it’ always better to have all the four wheels on the ground instead of having one wheel in the air.

Imo the best benefit with long suspension travel are on crests and taking off for a jump. With longer suspension travel the wheels will be in touch with the ground longer and taking the car forward instead of beeing in the air and being slowed down by the air resistance.

[stefanvv]

I agree with Sprocket, the longer suspension travel must be important in all the cornering precisely because of the traction the car gets and the impetus it gets out of the each corner.

[Sprocket]

I agree with Sprocket, the longer suspension travel must be important in all the cornering precisely because of the traction the car gets and the impetus it gets out of the each corner.

Also it allows the car to take the biggest advantage of the camber, two wheels solidly in the 'dip' will allow a higher cornering speed to be maintained (sideways forces on the tyre walls on the inside tyres prevent the car going as wide as it would otherwise) as well as the faster exit out as you say due to far better traction.

[stefanvv]

Also it allows the car to take the biggest advantage of the camber, two wheels solidly in the 'dip' will allow a higher cornering speed to be maintained (sideways forces on the tyre walls on the inside tyres prevent the car going as wide as it would otherwise) as well as the faster exit out as you say due to far better traction.

True, though one might argue it might throw the rear of the car away. This is where the rear suspension geometry comes in probably and gets the complete package.

[Coach 2]

Pleas guys, you cant get all of this out of two pictures. One car could be on the throttle and one on the brakes. It also look like one is closer to the camera than the other. One could be coming more at the camera and one more sideways. And it's maybe so simple that Citroen have stronger anti roll bar than VW.

[Sprocket]

You can get this from the pictures.

One could be on the throttle one on the brakes? No not at all. That is not so. You are looking at the worlds top drivers, they are not on the brakes in a corner! All the braking gear selection is done before. What you see is one key to the VW dominance, not all I'm sure but plenty of people here will see plenty from those pictures and be able to draw some conclusions from it.

[stefanvv]

The difference in pictures snapshots is a matter of thousands of the second probably, so it couldn't be much of the different driver's approach (as Sprocket said "top class drivers"), it's all about the car behavior.

[Coach 2]

You can get this from the pictures.

One could be on the throttle one on the brakes? No not at all. That is not so. You are looking at the worlds top drivers, they are not on the brakes in a corner! All the braking gear selection is done before. What you see is one key to the VW dominance, not all I'm sure but plenty of people here will see plenty from those pictures and be able to draw some conclusions from it.

Now I too am one of many, too, and I can not see it so clearly. And if the whole secret to VW, longer suspension travel, and this is so clear, then the other teams have solved that problem to the next race.

[handbrakes&hairpins]

Photo: Rally Guanajuato Mexico 2013 (http://www.rallysport.ru/gallery.php?album=283)

http://www.rallysport.ru/newwr/uploads/albums/big/001342962.jpg

http://www.rallysport.ru/newwr/uploads/albums/big/001l601176.jpg

http://www.rallysport.ru/newwr/uploads/albums/big/001c880628.jpg

http://www.rallysport.ru/newwr/uploads/albums/big/001n521191.jpg
BEAUTIFUL photos!!

[Sprocket]

Now I too am one of many, too, and I can not see it so clearly. And if the whole secret to VW, longer suspension travel, and this is so clear, then the other teams have solved that problem to the next race.

I stated part of it not all. I think in the past Citroen had to do very little to stay ahead of the game. Not so now. It won't have escaped them that the VW might be a better handling car as well as perhaps more powerful?

Put it another way, forget the technical explanations and think for a moment which to you 'looks right'. If you think the VW looks in better shape than the Citroen as I do (Citroen is clearly more sideways and has less rubber in contact with the surface), then it is not hard to imagine the VW went round the corner a tenth or two of a second faster. Now add that for all corners of a stage, then all corners of a rally and what do you get? So longer suspension travel could easily be a significant factor, if not the whole story, at this level of competition.

The proof will come if Citroen see something in it and adopt longer travel in future gravel rallies, I'll be watching out for it, all part of the fun of the sport!

PS Hirvonen said himself he needs to drive less sideways to challenge Ogier, there is technique issue as well, but it is clear to me from the picture the VW helps the driver more than the Citroen to achieve that goal.

[dimviii]

from one picture you cant have conclusions.Also dont forget that fiesta has also bigger suspension travel from ds3.

[stefanvv]

Also I know Ogier's driving style, it doesn't impose braking in the corner in any case.

[Sprocket]

from one picture you cant have conclusions.Also dont forget that fiesta has also bigger suspension travel from ds3.

These are not the only pictures I've been looking at, there are plenty available demonstrating what good shape the VW is in when cornering, particularly with Ogier at the wheel. I know Ogier is quick but 3 minutes quicker over a rally should get people looking into things and maybe learning along the way what VW have been getting up to ;)

[Mirek]

I started what I didn't even want :) No matter the situation on the photo it's fact VW has longer travel. What are the benefits and disadvantages is an interesting question for me and I don't care if we continue about that. But I would surely not overestimated one particular photo, that was just a random thing I found particularly interesting going through photos of André - in the end it might be like the discussion in Swedish topic about Ogier/JML in the same corner. Just remember ;)


I don’t think the suspension travel is so important in cornering because due to weight transfer the outer wheels have to take care of the traction. Of course it’ always better to have all the four wheels on the ground instead of having one wheel in the air.

It is important because the traction of an axle depends on the wheel with lesser load. Limited slip differential can't lock completely and therefore one wheel in the air must reduce the torque on the other as well. If You make the same with normal car without LSD You would just spin the inner wheel in the air and You would not accelerate at all.

The other thing is that there is some limit for lateral forces the tyres are able to cope with. If You have a wheel in the air it means the lateral force on those on the ground is higher - You have either smaller cornering speed or You loose time sliding sideways. The situation is the worse that car kicked in the air has higher center of gravity and the load on outer wheels is therefore further increased.

Just thinking loud here, feel free to tell me if it's BS :)

But there was sure a good point from Bluuford about the vulnerability of long struts. That sure is more risky. I also remember when they first brought Fiesta S2000 here in CZ. That time it was the only car with extremely long suspension travel (who would think VW will go even further). On our extremely bumpy asphalt they had huge problems to make a suitable setup. The asphalt suspension settings of M-Sport were useless because especially in braking the car was very hard to control sliding over the sumpguard. The problem was that when they made the ground clearance higher the suspension became very soft and unstable for competing on asphalt. I don't know how it was later solved with Prokop/Tarabus but I clearly remember the initial issues resulting in many hot moments.

By the way even last year Flodin with PS Engineering Fiesta touched ground very frequently in Barum rally...

[dimviii]

These are not the only pictures I've been looking at, there are plenty available demonstrating what good shape the VW is in when cornering, particularly with Ogier at the wheel. I know Ogier is quick but 3 minutes quicker over a rally should get people looking into things and maybe learning along the way what VW have been getting up to ;)

you keep comparing Ogier with Mikko,and you make conclusions about polo vs ds3....

[Sprocket]

Yep we should keep in mind this 'between rally' nattering and not life and death stuff lol.

The thought that crossed my mind was how come Loeb was doing well with what I would presume was the same set-up last year on the Citroen, surely if it wasn't working good Citroen would have known? Or would he have trailed Ogier this year? It is kind of killing me we will never know as there seems little hope of a fight this year between the Sebs.

[Sprocket]

you keep comparing Ogier with Mikko,and you make conclusions about polo vs ds3....

What other benchmarks do we have right now? Should I compare Sordo to Latvala in Mexico?

[dimviii]

in the end it might be like the discussion in Swedish topic about Ogier/JML in the same corner. Just remember ;) .

very well said.




It is important because the traction of an axle depends on the wheel with lesser load. Limited slip differential can't lock completely and therefore one wheel in the air must reduce the torque on the other as well. If You make the same with normal car without LSD You would just spin the inner wheel in the air and You would not accelerate at all.
Mirek just a correction here....plated lsd diffs can transfer plenty of torque even when you have one wheel of the ground.Some other type lsd diffs like torsen yes they cant transfer torque when we have one wheel in the air.

[dimviii]

What other benchmarks do we have right now? Should I compare Sordo to Latvala in Mexico?

i ve said that hyenas waiting for Argentina ;)

[stefanvv]

I started what I didn't even want :) No matter the situation on the photo it's fact VW has longer travel. What are the benefits and disadvantages is an interesting question for me and I don't care if we continue about that. But I would surely not overestimated one particular photo, that was just a random thing I found particularly interesting going through photos of André - in the end it might be like the discussion in Swedish topic about Ogier/JML in the same corner. Just remember ;)



It is important because the traction of an axle depends on the wheel with lesser load. Limited slip differential can't lock completely and therefore one wheel in the air must reduce the torque on the other as well. If You make the same with normal car without LSD You would just spin the inner wheel in the air and You would not accelerate at all.

The other thing is that there is some limit for lateral forces the tyres are able to cope with. If You have a wheel in the air it means the lateral force on those on the ground is higher - You have either smaller cornering speed or You loose time sliding sideways. The situation is the worse that car kicked in the air has higher center of gravity and the load on outer wheels is therefore further increased.

Just thinking loud here, feel free to tell me if it's BS :)

But there was sure a good point from Bluuford about the vulnerability of long struts. That sure is more risky. I also remember when they first brought Fiesta S2000 here in CZ. That time it was the only car with extremely long suspension travel (who would think VW will go even further). On our extremely bumpy asphalt they had huge problems to make a suitable setup. The asphalt suspension settings of M-Sport were useless because especially in braking the car was very hard to control sliding over the sumpguard. The problem was that when they made the ground clearance higher the suspension became very soft and unstable for competing on asphalt. I don't know how it was later solved with Prokop/Tarabus but I clearly remember the initial issues resulting in many hot moments.

By the way even last year Flodin with PS Engineering Fiesta touched ground very frequently in Barum rally...

Very good points, but not perfect perhaps - how come a car with higher center of gravity will put more pressure on the other wheels, it will just slide it imo. I still don't get it for the great danger long suspension travel might become. Perhaps the tyres are stronger these days in every direction.

[Mirek]

Mirek just a correction here....plated lsd diffs can transfer plenty of torque even when you have one wheel of the ground.Some other type lsd diffs like torsen yes they cant transfer torque when we have one wheel in the air.

I know but "plenty" is still less than if both wheels have similar traction ;)

[Sprocket]

Very good points, but not perfect perhaps - how come a car with higher center of gravity will put more pressure on the other wheels, it will just slide it imo. I still don't get it for the great danger long suspension travel might become. Perhaps the tyres are stronger these days in every direction.

I think this was referring to the Latvala retirement. One could guess that the track control arm is more exposed to bigger rocks if the suspension travel is longer? So a rock that the DS3 might hit with the front bumper could presumably get past this on the VW and hit the TCA? I'm sure VW will look into that. Trust Latvala to find the right sized rock to just go under, yet be big enough to break the TCA :D

[tommeke_B]

I remember from Finland and Sardinia last year, that despite the shorter travel, the DS3 seemed to have better traction than the Fiesta. The Citroëns looked even slightly understeered (mostly Loeb and Neuville, Hirvonen less, perhaps due to his driving style)... http://rally-image.be/foto/0311/images/047.jpg - on this photo from Finland you could think the suspension is doing a bad job, but in fact Loeb was extremely fast there, faster than all others, and the car didn't even go sideways... Spring travel is one thing, dampers characteristics another thing... I think the dampers were the main difference between Citroën and Ford last year, especially in Finland, the cornering speed of Citroën was much higher before they started to go sideways. And that's something we certainly can't judge from one photo. A few years ago Loix was testing several sets of new dampers (think 3 sets) for the Ypres Rally, with Skoda. All looked exactly the same from the outside and had the same dimensions of course. What's in the inside is unfortunately hidden and kept secret for us, but when he got back in the service area after testing another set of dampers, a smile on his face revealed there was a noticable difference... :) Just to say, don't judge the whole suspension on just the travel regarding photos from one particular situation...

[stefanvv]

I think this was referring to the Latvala retirement. One could guess that the track control arm is more exposed to bigger rocks if the suspension travel is longer? So a rock that the DS3 might hit with the front bumper could presumably get past this on the VW and hit the TCA? I'm sure VW will look into that. Trust Latvala to find the right sized rock to just go under, yet be big enough to break the TCA :D

I don't think the suspension travel is variable here, just bad luck

[Mirek]

Very good points, but not perfect perhaps - how come a car with higher center of gravity will put more pressure on the other wheels, it will just slide it imo.

That's what I meant. If the apex speed is same the car with higher center of gravity will start sliding because the load on outer wheels would be too high. In extreme situation on dry asphalt it can end by rollover :)


I still don't get it for the great danger long suspension travel might become. Perhaps the tyres are stronger these days in every direction.

Any construction made of long narrow components is rather fragile or better to say can't be so strong like similar construction made of shorter elements. That's natural thing.

[Mirek]

I remember from Finland and Sardinia last year, that despite the shorter travel, the DS3 seemed to have better traction than the Fiesta. The Citroëns looked even slightly understeered (mostly Loeb and Neuville, Hirvonen less, perhaps due to his driving style)... http://rally-image.be/foto/0311/images/047.jpg - on this photo from Finland you could think the suspension is doing a bad job, but in fact Loeb was extremely fast there, faster than all others, and the car didn't even go sideways... Spring travel is one thing, dampers characteristics another thing... I think the dampers were the main difference between Citroën and Ford last year, especially in Finland, the cornering speed of Citroën was much higher before they started to go sideways. And that's something we certainly can't judge from one photo. A few years ago Loix was testing several sets of new dampers (think 3 sets) for the Ypres Rally, with Skoda. All looked exactly the same from the outside and had the same dimensions of course. What's in the inside is unfortunately hidden and kept secret for us, but when he got back in the service area after testing another set of dampers, a smile on his face revealed there was a noticable difference... :) Just to say, don't judge the whole suspension on just the travel regarding photos from one particular situation...

In my opinion the difference You speak about (Fiesta/DS3) was more in differential settings but that's just my feeling ;)

[stefanvv]

Any construction made of long narrow components is rather fragile or better to say can't be so strong like similar construction made of shorter elements. That's natural thing.

It depends of the construction I think, it might appear even stronger

EDIT:
http://data21.gallery.ru/albums/gallery/251890-be09e-58076442-m750x740-u7379c.jpg

[tommeke_B]

It depends of the construction I think, it might appear even stronger
The longer your suspension travel is, the more fragile it is, without any doubt. If you have an impact, if the distance towards the top mount is 1,5x as much as with another car, the torque on the top mount will be 1,5x as much too. And if the wheel drops deeper, the chance of hitting some edge/stone/whatever is multiple times higher too.

[tommeke_B]

In my opinion the difference You speak about (Fiesta/DS3) was more in differential settings but that's just my feeling ;)
Of course it's likely some set-up thing, but still, my point is that there is more on a rally-car than just suspension-travel. :) Some people here are almost translating time differences between Ogier and Hirvonen to the difference in suspension travel, and that's not so smart...

[stefanvv]

The longer your suspension travel is, the more fragile it is, without any doubt. If you have an impact, if the distance towards the top mount is 1,5x as much as with another car, the torque on the top mount will be 1,5x as much too. And if the wheel drops deeper, the chance of hitting some edge/stone/whatever is multiple times higher too.

I don't agree - as further the impact point is, as less the stress is on the higher point.

[tommeke_B]

I don't agree - as longer the impact point is, as less the stress is on the higher point.
If you have a spanner, and you need to loosen a bolt, you will put your hand as far to the outside as you can, right? So with the same force you can get more torque. The same goes for example an object like a stone, if you hit it with the same speed, you will have the same impact, but the torque on the car with longer suspension travel will be bigger than on the one with shorter distance from wheel to topmount.

[dupanton]

I don't agree - as further the impact point is, as less the stress is on the higher point.

You are wrong :)
The torque on the mounting point will be bigger. Torque = Force x Distance. So the bigger the distance, the bigger the Torque is. That is just a fact :)

[OldF]

how come a car with higher center of gravity will put more pressure on the other wheels, it will just slide it imo.

It’s simple. A car has a roll center depending of the geometry of the suspension. The car will roll around this roll center and if the center of garvity is higher it will create more torque and therfore a bigger downforce on the outer wheels (radius * sideaway force = torque => more downforce on outer wheels i.e weight transfer).
R/C Car Handling - An Introduction To Vehicle Dynamics (http://home.scarlet.be/~be067749/58/) (suspension)

[stefanvv]

You are wrong :)
The torque on the mounting point will be bigger. Torque = Force x Distance. So the bigger the distance, the bigger the Torque is. That is just a fact :)

Well, may be this works for Archimedus, who would lift the earth with long enough lever :) But perhaps there are some variables in the middle of that.

[stefanvv]

It’s simple. A car has a roll center depending of the geometry of the suspension. The car will roll around this roll center and if the center of garvity is higher it will create more torque and therfore a bigger downforce on the outer wheels (radius * sideaway force = torque => more downforce on outer wheels i.e weight transfer).
R/C Car Handling - An Introduction To Vehicle Dynamics (http://home.scarlet.be/%7Ebe067749/58/) (suspension)

You're absolutely right :)

[Sprocket]

Of course it's likely some set-up thing, but still, my point is that there is more on a rally-car than just suspension-travel. :) Some people here are almost translating time differences between Ogier and Hirvonen to the difference in suspension travel, and that's not so smart...

Actually nobody did. They were only misquoted in stating it was the only factor. Of course not, the suspension is an entire package. What can't be argued is the VW has the greater travel over the DS3 it is easy to see in many pictures of the two cars in Mexico.

Nobody is going to convince me a car with only three wheels on the ground in a corner is able to exit faster than one with all four on the surface. It's simple physics and all that was being discussed really.

[danon]

FCM Suspension Truth v2.3 - How Shocks Work - Rally setups - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOtFJ-NcsHQ&NR=1&feature=endscreen)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOtFJ-NcsHQ&NR=1&feature=endscreen

[danon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXZhKAiz2NI

[danon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUrZfumzIe4

[Mirek]

Well, may be this works for Archimedus, who would lift the earth with long enough lever :) But perhaps there are some variables in the middle of that.

The fundamental principles are no rocket science. For long structural elements such as struts, rods, arms etc. the stress comes mostly from flection and bracing. Both depends very much on the length of the element. We can consider that even driveshafts and their joints are probably more stressed because of more extreme working angles in long-travel suspension.

[stefanvv]

The fundamental principles are no rocket science. For long structural elements such as struts, rods, arms etc. the stress comes mostly from flection and bracing. Both depends very much on the length of the element. We can consider that even driveshafts and their joints are probably more stressed because of more extreme working angles in long-travel suspension.

I know the fundamental principles. Perhaps I'm wrong or all depends of the construction as I said initially. I can't make up some engineering formula right now, I'm just a fan ameteur :)

[stefanvv]

This thread looks dead.
Have this been already here - http://www.volkswagen-motorsport.com/index.php?id=2&L=1#entryId=0_v4o4i720