Which rally should they add to the WRC-calendar?

[Arska]

This has been on my mind a couple of weeks and now I decided to bring it in here. What would be a great country where the rallycaravan would compete in your opinion? I would suggest rally America in the district of Grand Canyon for example, as it would bring together drivers like Ken Block, Travis Pastrana, Dave Mirra, Chris Duplessis, Tanner Foust etc. and also some non-American rallycross stars. The rallycrossers and WRC-stars would have a great competition between each other and they would also perform some well-controlled (does that word even exist?) stunts during the race. Plus it would also help making rally even more popular and more familiar for the American people. What would you think?

BTW: Sorry if this kind of topic already exists.

[Hartusvuori]

Czech Republic. It Mlada Boleslav or Zlín or something else, but those fans absolutely deserve a WRC round and it would be perfect for visitors as well. Also, if their local drivers would enter, they'd mix the results nicely I think, at least in S2000 and PWRC.

[stefanvv]

This has been on my mind a couple of weeks and now I decided to bring it in here. What would be a great country where the rallycaravan would compete in your opinion? I would suggest rally America in the district of Grand Canyon for example, as it would bring together drivers like Ken Block, Travis Pastrana, Dave Mirra, Chris Duplessis, Tanner Foust etc. and also some non-American rallycross stars. The rallycrossers and WRC-stars would have a great competition between each other and they would also perform some well-controlled (does that word even exist?) stunts during the race. Plus it would also help making rally even more popular and more familiar for the American people. What would you think?

BTW: Sorry if this kind of topic already exists.

That's great idea IMO.

I want to say "Sliven", because I'm from here and there are great tarmac stages around which has been major part of the famous european rally "Zlatni" in 80's and 90's. But I'm only a dreamer, realisticly I don't see this happening as there are couple of well known tarmac european rallies which already have really good bases.

In general I think otherwise - rally Brasil (or South Africa) looks also great option as these have never been in WRC, would be interesting to watch, but as you said in USA the opportunities would be much better for local drivers also. How are the roads there? Very fast and flowing dusty stages?

[Arska]

What you mention would be similar to a boxing match between actors and professional boxers... There are no true top rallydrivers in America, if one would get top 10 it would be a huge prestation. Also I doubt if Americans would be really interested in it, if it doesn't explode it's often not spectacular enough (without wanting to talk too general).

BTW: There's a similar topic already.

:D OK, maybe I overstated with the Rallycross vs. WRC thing. I guess they both would have their own competitions. When it comes to interestingness, I think there would be however enough spectators to make an event in a country that big + Block and the others definitely attract some spectators. And if that's not enough, there would be a Freestyle motocross-show and people could follow the rally on screen. And I remembered that I had maybe seen a topic about this somewhere but I wasn't sure so I made this.

[Josti]

While North America is a populair suggestion, I just cannot see it succeed without it being Americanized (which the op pictured), and that's no good imo.

Africa needs a round, preferably Safari, but realistically South Africa.

[Arska]

While North America is a populair suggestion, I just cannot see it succeed without it being Americanized (which the op pictured), and that's no good imo.

Africa needs a round, preferably Safari, but realistically South Africa.

But there are already events like Rally in the 100 Acre Wood, are those Americanized somehow?

[kirungi okwogera]

I put it to you (as an expat American) that they are not Americanized enough - hence why it is a grassroots pursuit in the USA and not full of global sponsors and hundred-thousand-strong crowds. If you want WRC-sized sponsors to benefit from a rally enough to want to sign on, I imagine you're on the right track imagining it as a multi-discipline festival thing, with lots of other (moto/supercross, quads, buggies, rallycross) type events happening around the superspecials when the WRC cars are out in the countryside and a decently major TV deal (ESPN?) to cover the rally itself, while keeping crowds who don't wanna hike 5 miles from the nearest access point to see the rally from the SS's.

I know in NZ they do this, put the rallycars around a SSS that carries a bunch of more local events throughout the rest of the day - probably other WRC rallies too. And while I'm not thrilled at the idea of an "X-Games WRC rally" I think that's the only way it's coming back, unless Ken Block starts beating Loeb, Hirvonen and Latvala and making US headlines.

[eestlane]

Baltic rally. There was a rumor that it would be good for the sport. The roads are great too and a lot of fans over here :D

[Sulland]

We need one more winter rally. It can be in North America or in one of the Baltic countries.

[Juha_Koo]

After visiting Rally Estonia, I'd like to say "Rally Baltic", structure 1½+1½ days, first in Latvia and then Estonia. Maybe Lithuania also, but liasons could become a bit too long...

Also Czech Republic, no doubt. One of their more technical rallies would do fine in WRC. Though, imho it would require Alsace or Germany being dropped from the calendar. Not sure about USA... Brazil and China could have an event just because of their growing potential.

[RAS007]

I can think of a few:Safari, San Remo, Corsica, and we could get rid of Mexico, Germany and "Rally D'Alsace"..........

[Juha_Koo]

I can think of a few:Safari, San Remo, Corsica, and we could get rid of Mexico, Germany and "Rally D'Alsace"..........

Safari way too expensive nowdays... Also dangerous, just think of the PR damage to the sport when stages are driven on open roads and small children from some village would be hit by rally car... No no no.

I see no point in getting rid of Rally Mexico, a huge spectactle there for/by the spectators. Germany is also nice "special" tarmac rally and taking into consideration their meaning automotive-wise in Europe, totally should have an event. Finally they have started to use new stages, thank God.

Agree on Alsace, rally is too same kind with Germany. But as French are also big automotive-wise, they need to have an event. So Corsica would be good - but I don't know would it be politically possible to organize an event there at the same time calling it "RALLY FRANCE".

[Josti]

Safari way too expensive nowdays... Also dangerous, just think of the PR damage to the sport when stages are driven on open roads and small children from some village would be hit by rally car... No no no.

Safari has always been an expensive excersize, but I agree, it may not be valuable in these dark economic days. About safety, there´s been some incidents sure, but it proved harmless over the years. But I think this event is long past from FIA´s consideration anyway, unfortunately.



Agree on Alsace, rally is too same kind with Germany. But as French are also big automotive-wise, they need to have an event. So Corsica would be good - but I don't know would it be politically possible to organize an event there at the same time calling it "RALLY FRANCE".

Corsica is on French territory not? It was called Rallye de France before and everyone believed it then. Alsace is only run in Alsace region too.

[userwave]

the best North American rallies are in Canada namely Rally of the Tall Pines in Ontario and Rally Baie Des Chaleurs in Quebec, perhaps this may seem a bit biased coming from a Canadian, but both of these events are highly regarded and draw teams from all across Canada and America.

We are years away here (both in Canada and America) though from seeing even an event reach even close to the level it would need to be for consideration. Sad because the north american market is huge obviously for Ford, but also for Mini and VW.

Perhaps the event that may be nearest for consideration is the Targa Newfoundland event that draws teams from abroad as well. (albeit this event is geared alot towards vintage cars) but the organization and participation is top notch.

[userwave]

Agree on Alsace, rally is too same kind with Germany. But as French are also big automotive-wise, they need to have an event. So Corsica would be good - but I don't know would it be politically possible to organize an event there at the same time calling it "RALLY FRANCE".

I was in Corisca late last year after WRC France (Alsace) for the Tour De Corse Historique , everywhere seemed very French to me (France French) but they hold onto their heritage much like Sardinia seems to with Italy or prior to Italy I guess I mean :)

[Juha_Koo]

Corsica is on French territory not? It was called Rallye de France before and everyone believed it then. Alsace is only run in Alsace region too.

Yes, Corsica is French territory but it's not a usual political borough called "région" - but a "territorial collectivity" which means it has greater autonomous political powers. There's also many Corsican nationalist movements which don't see Corsica as a part of France but as an independent country. But I don't know how strong these kind of views are among the people. I've only been to one course dealing contemporary France so I'm by no means a professional on this matter. :D

I don't excatly know how it was during the times it was driven as "Rallye De France", atleast I don't remember any major problems with it. These are "small" things with bigger political perspective, just like Mikkelsen's car mysteriously happened to carry regular Skoda colours instead of Union Jack painting in Circuit of Ireland driven in Northern Ireland...

[Josti]

Yes, Corsica is French territory but it's not a usual political borough called "région" - but a "territorial collectivity" which means it has greater autonomous political powers. There's also many Corsican nationalist movements which don't see Corsica as a part of France but as an independent country. But I don't know how strong these kind of views are among the people. I've only been to one course dealing contemporary France so I'm by no means a professional on this matter. :D

I don't excatly know how it was during the times it was driven as "Rallye De France", atleast I don't remember any major problems with it. These are "small" things with bigger political perspective, just like Mikkelsen's car mysteriously happened to carry regular Skoda colours instead of Union Jack painting in Circuit of Ireland driven in Northern Ireland...

Yes, there are always nationalist people who take distance from where they´re officially a part of, but that isn´t the championships problem (I don´t think there´s ever been incidents on this matter anyway, as far as the Tour de Corse goes). In any case, I do like to vent that I much prefer Corsica over Alsace, which is a nice rally but hardly as characteristic like the former.

[janvanvurpa]

To give you guys a feeling of how small time and invisible rally is in America in general and in California in particular, the state is long, and like many real long conutries the North and the South are considered distant strange places with nothing in common.
In "Northern" California, in the San Francisco area according to wilipedia:
The city is also the financial and cultural hub of the larger San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Bay_Area_Combined_Statistical_Area) metropolitan area, with a population of 7.4 million.

Last weekend a regional event was just held and there were a total of 12 entries: Reg 1 Results (http://rallydata.com/Results/Mendocino_2012_Club1Results.htm) It was a friend who won in a very modest Golf MkII, another friend who was second on my own suspension.

Southern California , again from wiki
The Census Bureau also defines a wider region based on commuting patterns, the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside Combined Statistical Area (CSA), more commonly known as the Greater Los Angeles Area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Los_Angeles_Area), with an estimated population of 17,786,419.[4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Metropolitan_Area#cite_note-3)

17.7 million..
Typically they might have 20-maybe 30 entries. Most extremely modest levels of prep...many near stock.


There is simply no the numbers of people in the sport at even the most rudimentary level to support more than just fun events...

The guy above is right, Canada, especially the nearer to "New France" aka Quebec you get, they better the event, and there are even spectators at 'Baie de Chaleurs" , but as much as I enjoyed canadian events when i did them, it is dreaming to think the events could ratchet up and cooperate..and pull off a real event with 100-180 entries.

[Gregor-y]

More particularly I think any North American event would need to be in the east, making transport much easier. A west coast event would be a big logistical move like Australia, New Zealand, or Japan. As much as I'd like to see the WRC at an event I can get to easily like Sno*Drift - run in late January - Canada is probably the better bet. Guess I'd need to take more days off work, then.

If there was a way to incorporate it into a long event like Targa Newfoundland it could be even more unique.

[tfp]

Someone posted a video link to a tarmac rally in Norway, unfortunately the video title was in Norwegian so I cant remember the name :dozey: Really nice looking roads there, Monte style mountains, frozen lakes and the like. May have been Grondal driving...?

[sollitt]

They shouldn't be adding any events to the WRC where the sport is not strong and has no history of running top level events. The WRC is the pinnacle of our sport and ought reflect the culture we, who are involved in the sport, have grown and nutured for decades.

[EightGear]

When Loeb retires, will the Alsace region still be intetested in a WRC round? I wonder...

[danon]

... I want to say "Sliven", because I'm from here and there are great tarmac stages around which has been major part of the famous european rally "Zlatni" in 80's and 90's...

Rally Sliven is definitely the one worth being added to the WRC - calendar.
It's an event unique on its own.

The vid below says it all...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ChwWY0__XE

[janvanvurpa]

More particularly I think any North American event would need to be in the east, making transport much easier. A west coast event would be a big logistical move like Australia, New Zealand, or Japan. As much as I'd like to see the WRC at an event I can get to easily like Sno*Drift - run in late January - Canada is probably the better bet. Guess I'd need to take more days off work, then.

If there was a way to incorporate it into a long event like Targa Newfoundland it could be even more unique.


Tavarich Gregorij, Targa Newfie-land looks like fun but the reality is it is just a well promoted play time for old farts with silly shiney cars..
A friend and customer of mine Martin Walter from up in Ontario took his old pounded to death for3-4 seasons gravel rally Nissan 240 Nissan, stock JDM SR20DET engine and box, Sooper Bitchin JVAB gravel Söspendös, :D and some random asphalt tires, and nearly won it.

It is somewhat akin to the Alcan 5000 which has run from here in Sleezattle up to the Arctic Sea and then to Anchorage winter and summer alternating years..

It is basically a drive in pretty countryside. And Newfie+land is pretty and the people I have met unusually friendly, and that counts highly in my book, but thereäs not the roads, the facilities, the population to support even a Canadian Championship Rally much less anything more.

Tall Pines would be closer, better terrain, but not the organisational structure-----although the Canajians can certainly do it easier with just CARS than USAians could with 4 distinct organisations who cannot speak much less cooperate together.

[RAS007]

They shouldn't be adding any events to the WRC where the sport is not strong and has no history of running top level events. The WRC is the pinnacle of our sport and ought reflect the culture we, who are involved in the sport, have grown and nutured for decades.

+1

[Prisoner Monkeys]

A few ideas:

1) Rally America, which could be based in Denver. Denver is a major urban area, but the beauty of it is that the city is hard up agaisnt the Rocky Mountains. If it was run at the right time of year, it could be a combination tarmac-gravel-snow event, which I think would become very popular very quickly.

2) Baltic Rally, which seems like a popular idea. I'm suggesting it here because one of the original proposals for Rally Argentina this year was an "endurance" even, starting in Argentina, crossing Paraguay and entering Brazil. The idea never came to fruition, but it could be applied to a rally in the Baltic states, starting in Vilnius and ending in Tallinn, which are only about 500km apart. Yes, the liasion stages would be long, but it could be a four-day endurance event. Again, I think it would be popular.

3) Revive Rally Japan, because the series needs more manufacturer support.

4) Revive Rally Indonesia, which was a fantastic event, even if it was only run twice before the East Timor crisis made the event unmanageable and inappropriate. Alternatively, something else in South-East Asia could be good. Maybe a Rally of Thailand?

[janvanvurpa]

A few ideas:

1) Rally America, which could be based in Denver. Denver is a major urban area, but the beauty of it is that the city is hard up agaisnt the Rocky Mountains. If it was run at the right time of year, it could be a combination tarmac-gravel-snow event, which I think would become very popular very quickly.
?

Access to roads in Colorado is very difficult. Locating service parks would be extremely difficult.. See there's a lot of really rich people who want to be left alone to enjoys the emptiness. Roads are narrow, extremely steep in many places and off highways, can be very torn up=---lots of geniuses in V8 Jeep type crap that dig up the roads, LOTS of them

Then there's the fact there is a bunch of nice guys in Colorado but none are or want to be organisers.
I introduced America to Finland's great F-Cup, arguably the best rally series in the whole world, and one friend down there has become maybe the biggest F-cup fan and advocate in America..
In other words, they're dyed-in-the-wool clubbies, highly suspect and not impressed with what we refer to as the Rally America Dog and Pony Show.

So no base, no existing structure.

(Note: where I am is where we last had WRC rally in America back in 1986/87/88...WE here in the PNW have roads by the 10s of thousands of miles, but no political clout and extremely limited access to the woods, and vastly less than in the 80s.
The skyrocketing costs of entry fees since SCCA "sold the series" to multi-millionaire Doug Havir to operate as a privately held corporation have devastated rally as have the portrayal of rally as a "big spectacle" which results in many younger guys say "I can't afford a $200k monster car like Blockstrana, so i ain't interested. So who chooses to participate has changed.. It is promoted as a idle passtime for already rich "has beens" in goofy sports that appeal to 12-14 y.o. boys in Orange County. (an affluent area of endless grids of suburbia South of Los Angeles. A consumerist paradise of endless shopping malls after shopping malls. WE here no longer have the manpower to pull of low level 30-40 car clubbie cars withouit "importing" "help" from Rally America headquarters---very very expensive help....
Sub-note.
The "party line explaining the $1000-1200 entry fees is the same stand-by excuse as 25 years ago "Oi! the Insurance premiums are skyrocketing!!! Oi!" That may be a part, but it is the combined sanction fee+ insurance fee, and the sanction fee and what that includes is never discussed.)

So no go in Colorado, No go in SoCal, NorCal, Pacific North West, Western Canada...US Deep South forget it.

[Sulland]

the best North American rallies are in Canada namely Rally of the Tall Pines in Ontario and Rally Baie Des Chaleurs in Quebec, perhaps this may seem a bit biased coming from a Canadian, but both of these events are highly regarded and draw teams from all across Canada and America.

We are years away here (both in Canada and America) though from seeing even an event reach even close to the level it would need to be for consideration. Sad because the north american market is huge obviously for Ford, but also for Mini and VW.

Perhaps the event that may be nearest for consideration is the Targa Newfoundland event that draws teams from abroad as well. (albeit this event is geared alot towards vintage cars) but the organization and participation is top notch.


There was a reason behind me writing North America.
The US is not ready for a sport that you can not follow live from a stadium, sitting still.
So there the Global Rally Cross will have a much bigger chance.

In Canada on the other hand, people are very european in mind, (part of the commonwealth) and are able to grasp sporting events that are executed oudoors, over a big area, and that you can not see everything the whole time.

So my vote goes to Canada, if anyone would take on the task of spreading the rally sport commercially to a new continent! And if something are to be called a world championship, it need to imo, to include North America.
(we can not do like the US, and call our national series for the world series! But then again, they do not speak english, but american......... ;-)

[Humber]

Someone posted a video link to a tarmac rally in Norway, unfortunately the video title was in Norwegian so I cant remember the name :dozey: Really nice looking roads there, Monte style mountains, frozen lakes and the like. May have been Grondal driving...?

Would need a few dive teams on standby in Norway in case a crew or two take a dip in the Fjords or a cliff rescue team if someone goes over the edge in places. Otherwise they appear to be classic hard out rally roads.

Rally Sokndal 2010 SS6, Snartemo BMW M3 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7JCHI05vj0&feature=related)
Svein Frustøl - Rally Sokndal 2011 - SS2 - Try Frustøl Motorsport - YouTube (http://youtu.be/9s3PxOcxaW0)

[userwave]

There was a Canadian event in Quebec a few years back in contention for consideration for the WRC (many visits by FIA folks), the rally was known at that time as Rally Charlevoix, it had financial backing by provincial and federal government monies, sadly it fell victim to a financial scandal if I recall.

Keep in mind the WRC "DID" come to Canada years ago so there is still hope for us "one day again" Albiet spectator turnout is low compared to most other markets, but people standing outside in the dark in minus -25 Quebec winter weather to spectate at an event such as Rallye Pierce-Neige Maniwaki must count for something :)

Beside's Canada's economy is in far better shape then USA or almost anywhere in the world for that matter, an event in Canada one day please!!!




There was a reason behind me writing North America.
The US is not ready for a sport that you can not follow live from a stadium, sitting still.
So there the Global Rally Cross will have a much bigger chance.

In Canada on the other hand, people are very european in mind, (part of the commonwealth) and are able to grasp sporting events that are executed oudoors, over a big area, and that you can not see everything the whole time.

So my vote goes to Canada, if anyone would take on the task of spreading the rally sport commercially to a new continent! And if something are to be called a world championship, it need to imo, to include North America.
(we can not do like the US, and call our national series for the world series! But then again, they do not speak english, but american......... ;-)

[Gregor-y]

Access to roads in Colorado is very difficult. Locating service parks would be extremely difficult.. See there's a lot of really rich people who want to be left alone to enjoys the emptiness. Roads are narrow, extremely steep in many places and off highways, can be very torn up=---lots of geniuses in V8 Jeep type crap that dig up the roads, LOTS of them.
I hear my father complain about that a lot. He tries to go up roads that were no problem for a Camaro in the 60s but are now virtually impassable. Even some of the near-by roads I could manage in college are in worse shape fifteen years later.

And if a west coast event is hard to get to, anything deep in the interior would be even harder. I've always wanted to drive up to Targa Newfoundland (an adventure in itself, so to speak) but I'll take your word for it on the ability to host something major.

Snow*Drift has some pretty large crowds and bonfires along the night stages, too. It's convenient to a number of cities and more importantly airports at Detroit and Chicago. Plus it's very compact. Lodging would be a big problem, though, as there's not really enough space for the event at its current scale.

[janvanvurpa]

In Canada on the other hand, people are very european in mind, (part of the commonwealth) and are able to grasp sporting events that are executed oudoors, over a big area, and that you can not see everything the whole time.

So my vote goes to Canada, if anyone would take on the task of spreading the rally sport commercially to a new continent! And if something are to be called a world championship, it need to imo, to include North America.
(we can not do like the US, and call our national series for the world series! But then again, they do not speak english, but american......... ;-)

Sulland, while I agree on that if there's any small chance of a someplace in North America--besides Mexico---having the right frame of mind to have a International, or eventually a VM rally is Canada, I have to disagree with you saying they "are very European" in mind..
If there can be one place that that is closest it would be Quebec, but even there, it's slightly different---which you would expect when the people are separate from "the mother country" for 250-300 years. But while the whole country isn't "very European"---they're different , and most are very Canadian, in some ways, and in some areas---like motorsports of a European origin, like moto-cross and RALLY! there WAS before a LOT of European participants both in organisation committees and in the cars in the woods.
My first licence for moto-cross was back in '69 was Canadian, my first National Championship licence was in '87 in Alberta, Canada for Rocky Mountain Rally (7th overall in the mighty V4 Saab) and my last National Championship event--and licence---was Baie de Chaleur, Quebec in '97 and last rally I drove was a couple years again in snow event in British Colombia 4 hours North of here.

But there's been a generation shift, and as a friend up there said "the border doesn't stop the AM radio or the Inter-net" so the cultural influenza of US ideas has filtered thru and society in Canada has changed somewhat.... Now for example Alberta has become indistinguishable from the oil rich boom state of Texas and in general it is more about money and bling than sport....
much---but not just---like America.. And so as a result there are fewer but fancier cars there also...LOTS of very expensive Subarus filling the start lists, and like USA, very short "rally careers" (lots of very optimistic guys in with a lot of money, but dropping out in a couple of years when they don't get a factory ride and they can't afford to pour endless money into it. Canada is a HUGE country (even if 80% of the population lives within 100km of the border) and travel distances are crazy---5000 km from one end to the other and that's a long way to tow for 200km SS, then back 5000 km..

So sadly in the last 25 years in many ways Canada has changed and become more like its neighbor which some call the Unexplored Southern Area :eek:

*when I first did moto-cross in Canada about 60% of everybody there was foreign born who had done moto-cross back in Europe. English, Dutch, Italian, German, Scott, Finns... And it showed in the layouts, the struture of the events, longer and rougher and harder than here---that is why I would drive up 250km to do their eventsrather than the smoother, simpler, shorter events here which were more horse power races.
In rally back then one of the best---and still very good---was Canadian Taisto Heinonen whose son Taisto Heinonen was a moto-cross perv and who won a couple National Championships....sounds awfully Canadian, eh?

In that '87 Rocky Mountain National (which I drove to 1,400 km away (with 5.45 slutväxel i lådan--herre gud det var världens längsta transit dit) about 70% of the organising team was foreign born, and maybe 25% of the crews..)

[evoIX]

Czech Republic. It Mlada Boleslav or Zlín or something else, but those fans absolutely deserve a WRC round and it would be perfect for visitors as well. Also, if their local drivers would enter, they'd mix the results nicely I think, at least in S2000 and PWRC.
I totally agree with you,Czech Republic absolutely deserve a WRC round.

[stefanvv]

I totally agree with you,Czech Republic absolutely deserve a WRC round.

+1. Great promoters in the "virtual space". I haven't watch Rally there, but probably really deserved.

[Gregor-y]

If only to put a thumb in VW's eye for their new car being a Polo instead of a Fabia.

[tfp]

A few ideas:
3) Revive Rally Japan, because the series needs more manufacturer support.



:up: Agreed, it may give subaru and toyota a bit more incentive to think about entering.


Would need a few dive teams on standby in Norway in case a crew or two take a dip in the Fjords or a cliff rescue team if someone goes over the edge in places. Otherwise they appear to be classic hard out rally roads.

Rally Sokndal 2010 SS6, Snartemo BMW M3 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7JCHI05vj0&feature=related)
Svein Frustøl - Rally Sokndal 2011 - SS2 - Try Frustøl Motorsport - YouTube (http://youtu.be/9s3PxOcxaW0)

Nice onboards, especially the second one, thanks :)

[J4MIE]

I've not read the whole thread, but as I have mentioned before, I strongly believe the Safari should be in the WRC. There is nothing like it in the world!

[BleAivano]

i don't know but perhaps Rally Iceland (Reykjavik)?

[sollitt]

Rally Wairarapa. It's the preferred event for NZ competitors due to the quality of stages and the strength of the organising team. And as we all know NZ stages are the best in the world. Rally Wairarapa could produce the best WRC round bar none without breaking a sweat.

[N.O.T]

The only events that need to be added are one in the USA and one in JAPAN.... then we can have a rotation for the events in europe.

[titi_62]

The safari rally, it was a great rally !
They should replace France rally by Corsica rally or by Rallye des Cévennes.
San Remo was a cool event too...
And a rally in Belgium should be great with a lot of fans !!!

[sollitt]

The only events that need to be added are one in the USA and one in JAPAN.... then we can have a rotation for the events in europe.

Wrong on both counts.

[Mintexmemory]

Well as someone who attended the 2007 & 9 editions I'd like to see Rally Ireland back at a sensible Spring or Autumn date. The route needs to be Dublin / Belfast (1 start the other finish) HQ based -NOT Donegal) With a little imagination a 4 day rally using the Circuit of Ireland roads (Day 1&2) then either Galway or Kerry for Days 3 & 4 with a Pheonix Park Super Special Powerstage would present an entirely different spectacle to the mainland Europe tarmac events while preventing the Donegal hotel cost phenomenon (greater choice). It certainly attracts the crowds!

[AndyRAC]

Can I be mischievous, and suggest a 'RAC type' event for the British round? Including the 'Mickey House' stages - to get Joe Public & family interested. Whatever they try, the current event isn't doing it.

[Gregor-y]

Five days, sixty stages?

[N.O.T]

Wrong on both counts.

impossible... i am always right

[N.O.T]

Can I be mischievous, and suggest a 'RAC type' event for the British round? Including the 'Mickey House' stages - to get Joe Public & family interested. Whatever they try, the current event isn't doing it.

this is what the era needs the slow motion rallying of the 70s...

[A FONDO]

more tarmac!!!

[GigiGalliNo1]

Japan?! They have no market with the cars for sale. Fans yes, huge fan base but what the car companies want is different to what the FIA want.... ughhh

I say get rid of Australia, NZ is MUCH better!

South Africa would be good and Brazil. Don't forget Jordan! Bring it back! :D

[Mirek]

Jordan... what is the purpose of having a rally with three spectators on stages besides to make the king happy?

[GigiGalliNo1]

$$$£££€€€ no? They can inject somemoney... But now Qatar might do it!

[Mirek]

Are You really believe that it makes WRC healthier? I don't.

[Josti]

Can I be mischievous, and suggest a 'RAC type' event for the British round? Including the 'Mickey House' stages - to get Joe Public & family interested. Whatever they try, the current event isn't doing it.

Agreed, Rally GB is an insult to the former RAC. This years format is just pathetic.

[janvanvurpa]

Agreed, Rally GB is an insult to the former RAC. This years format is just pathetic.
Damn man you made me think back to when I heard of rally. They were BIG adventures. Old Monte Carlo with its starting points all over all of Europe. Old Tulpen rally, Old Alpine, old Safari, real RAC...and oddly they had hundreds of entries.

Now..everything is little short sprints, zero endurance element, near perfect cars that are virtually identical except headlights and paint...

I say its the adventure vs spectacle dichotomy. Everything has been sacrificed for the "spectacle" killing the wonder at the adventure..

And while big jumps and sideways action is a trat to the eyes, the power of imagination at the scale of BIG adventures is better.
The imagination is bigger than just a 0.3 seconds flash in the TV.


Maybe if we didn't know or had never heard of the giant cross continental or all round the whole country type events, we'd be better fan-boys and could argue about FIA cheating for Loeb "because the FIA is French" and that sort of brilliant analysis.

[N.O.T]

The thing is you have to have balance between the logic and the heart...

Yes Jordan is useless but we need an event there because people support the sport financially... we also need Gemany, Spain, Italy, France and The UK because they are huge markets.

USA, Japan, China and Russia should be tested to see the response, if the people there do not seem interested we can bin them...

The rest like Finland, greece, New Zeland, Australia ect are basically in, because of tradition.

So we must clarify in this thread the reasons we want an event in the sport....if we have 10-14 events all based in tradition then we are not going to have any sport in a few years time, so we must find the balance.

I am awesome !!!

[AndyRAC]

Damn man you made me think back to when I heard of rally. They were BIG adventures. Old Monte Carlo with its starting points all over all of Europe. Old Tulpen rally, Old Alpine, old Safari, real RAC...and oddly they had hundreds of entries.

Now..everything is little short sprints, zero endurance element, near perfect cars that are virtually identical except headlights and paint...

I say its the adventure vs spectacle dichotomy. Everything has been sacrificed for the "spectacle" killing the wonder at the adventure..

And while big jumps and sideways action is a trat to the eyes, the power of imagination at the scale of BIG adventures is better.
The imagination is bigger than just a 0.3 seconds flash in the TV.


Maybe if we didn't know or had never heard of the giant cross continental or all round the whole country type events, we'd be better fan-boys and could argue about FIA cheating for Loeb "because the FIA is French" and that sort of brilliant analysis.

Surely there is room for a 'middle ground'. Some events are suitable for 'Sprint type' events. Other, Monte, GB, Acropolis, etc are more an Endurance test. I don't have a problem with having sprint events like Finland last week. However, that needs to be balanced by having events of an Endurance element. So, start Thursday lunch time and have 3 1/2 full days of action, with days of 07:00 - 20:00....Isn't that feasible?

Does anybody think we need to think about having a return to some midweek events? In cycling the 3 big Grand Tours don't seem to have a problem with crowds on weekdays....Having events solely on a weekend means clashes with bigger more popular sports.

[danon]

This rally would be very dangerous, could cause a lot of problems... If those drunk idiots at "the tree" cause an accident it's "an accident at the rally"... This has nothing to do with rally, the video is mostly about drunk spectators, in some places this problem is covered with the name "atmosphere"... The few shots filmed on stages don't look so special... Let's wait and see after the IRC Rally this year, to see what it's really worth ;)

tommeke_B: - This rally would be very dangerous...

danon: - Any rally has a touch of danger on stand by. Dodgeball is safe though.

tommeke_B: - could cause a lot of problems...

danon: - Could, Would... Nostradamus!?

tommeke_B: - If those drunk idiots at "the tree" cause an accident it's "an accident at the rally"...

danon: - Accidents happend. It is the nature of motorsports.
A tip - Never insult human beings you do not know by calling them "idiots".
Meet (people) first, talk (about people) last!

tommeke_B: - This has nothing to do with rally...

danon: - It has more than anything to do with rally.
The Balkan Mountains in a combination with the four season weather conditions
are ment to be rally driven and are the natural habitat of the rally sport by default.
If you have ever seen a Balkan you'll get my point.

tommeke_B: - the video is mostly about drunk spectators, in some places this problem is covered with the name "atmosphere"...

danon: - It's a part of (any rally event) the game. Proove me wrong! Name an event - booze free!
As the car needs fuel so the fans need a beer or two to cheer up along the long waiting stage to start keeping the "athmosphere" flat out.

tommeke_B: - The few shots filmed on stages don't look so special...

danon: - Any given shot makes a difference.
Either special or not, it's in the eyes of the beholder!
In this particular case all but you.

tommeke_B: - Let's wait and see after the IRC Rally this year, to see what it's really worth...

danon: - For you it may worth a dime, for others - a dream come true!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ChwWY0__XE&feature=player_embedded

[Josti]

Bulgaria had a WRC round two years ago, which had some nice roads, but it was hardly groundbreaking.

[Mirek]

That was completely different event around Borovets.

[Josti]

That was completely different event around Borovets.

I know, but it proves Bulgaria is out of consideration for a while. I remember it wasn't a hugely succesful excersize.

[stefanvv]

Bulgaria had a WRC round two years ago, which had some nice roads, but it was hardly groundbreaking.

That might suggest why Sliven is preferred for IRC this year. The mountain roads around it are the best Rally roads in Bulgaria.

[sollitt]

The thing is you have to have balance between the logic and the heart... True, but we must never forget that this is still a sport.


Yes Jordan is useless but we need an event there because people support the sport financially... we also need Gemany, Spain, Italy, France and The UK because they are huge markets. We've dealt with this issue before. Better promotion for the sponsors is gained by showing well run, well supported events with acclaim than poorly run, poorly attended events with no prestige.


USA, Japan, China and Russia should be tested to see the response, if the people there do not seem interested we can bin them... Been done already. Nobody came. If the sport is not strong in a country without WRC no overnight sensation will occur due to the travelling circus arriving for a week.


The rest like Finland, greece, New Zeland, Australia ect are basically in, because of tradition. Tradition, quality of event, and the standard and marketability of the show.


So we must clarify in this thread the reasons we want an event in the sport....if we have 10-14 events all based in tradition then we are not going to have any sport in a few years time, so we must find the balance. First part - agree. 2nd bit - nonsense. The sport will survive very well on the strong foundations already laid by those 'traditional' entities you seem so eager to replace. Expediency is the real danger.


I am awesome !!!A legend in your own mind !!!

[N.O.T]

I do not think that attendance plays a major role anymore.... maybe in the service park but on the actual stages i doubt it.

As for Japan, USA ects i think we need to give time to countries with strong track culture... lets make a 5-year plan for them without any rotations then we can draw results.

what is the point in changing locations withina country or introducing events with little marketing value for the manufacturers ?

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Jordan... what is the purpose of having a rally with three spectators on stages besides to make the king happy?
It had a few things going for it. For one, the two-day sprint format in 2011 was fantastic, and proved that you can run a rally without having to resort to tactics.

Secondly, the surface was pretty unique: man-made roads built especially for the rally, then sprayed with water from the Dead Sea, so the high salt content gave it a diamond-hard finish. It was low-grip, high-speed, and just looking out the windscreen during the in-car shots, you could barely see where the road ended and the scenery began.

The Rally of Jordan might not have had a high spectator turn-out, but you can't make decisions about the future of the sport based on what will get the most spectators. That's how we ended up with half a dozen super-special stages per rally, shortened TV-friendly routes, and the ridiculous super-rally regulations. The appeal of rallying lies in taking cars that look like cars you see on the road every day, and then throwing them at the most difficult roads you can find and the toughest conditions therein. Making decisions based on what will get the most spectators will only kill that spirit.


Access to roads in Colorado is very difficult. Locating service parks would be extremely difficult.. See there's a lot of really rich people who want to be left alone to enjoys the emptiness. Roads are narrow, extremely steep in many places and off highways, can be very torn up=---lots of geniuses in V8 Jeep type crap that dig up the roads, LOTS of them
Difficult does not mean impossible.


Bulgaria had a WRC round two years ago, which had some nice roads, but it was hardly groundbreaking.
But does the WRC need "groundbreaking" right now?

Personally, I think it is in a perilous position right now. Citroen is dominating, Ford has not committed to a works programme for 2013, Mini has been completely mismanaged, and while Volkswagen is entering, there aren't a whole lot of details about their plans. Meanwhile, the promoter is in trouble, there are only a handful of customer teams that can make it to events on a regular basis, and there are probably half a dozen other problems with it that I've overlooked.

With regards to the calendar, it's a little stale right now. I appreciate Jean Todt's efforts to encourage "endurance" events, and the Monte's presence is always a good thing, but there has been very little change. Just look at the rallies in France and Germany: they're not very far away from one another, so there's not a hell of a lot of difference there. The WRC needs to grow a little to show that it can overcome its difficulties, and I think that one of the easiest ways to do that would be to re-introduce events that have been run (and discontinued) in the recent past. Bulgaria probably isn't the ideal candidate, but revivals of the Rally of Poland and Japan in particular would probably do a lot of good.

In fact, I think the WRC needs to look at making flyaway events more worth the teams' while, since they can be so expensive. To do that, I'd suggest partnering events that are close geographically and bring the dates closer together so that the teams don't have to fly back and forth. Run Rally Mexico in conjuction with an event in America. Rally Argentina could be twinned with an event in Brazil or somewhere else in South America. And Rally New Zealand/Australia could be run alongside events in Japan or Indonesia or Thailand or wherever.

[janvanvurpa]

I
Difficult does not mean impossible.


.

I know, I do difficult things every day..
But who in Colorado is going to:
Find the roads?
Deal with US Forest Service to secure roads?
Risk a couple of hundred thousand dollars just with bureaucratic hassles?
My buddies Grant Hughes? He and his wife just had their first baby 2 weeks ago, his car is apart, he has no money.
My friend Dave Kern?
The guy I just 30 minutes ago shipped his new suspension for the car that the cage isn't done in?
The garage mate to Kern, who has one event and is waiting for me to finish a revision on his suspension (that he mistakenly bought elsewhere is is all wrong with 30mm less travel than a stock Subaru?)

There's no clubs in America and without motor-clubs, there is no foundation for anything but the very small time, low level, totally amateur events with have so much trouble pulling off.
That's why Canada and Mexico have so much better chance: like everywhere civilised, the foundation of motorsport is a network of motor-clubs, and before you buy a licence in Canada, you first join a club.

No clubs, no foundation. No foundation, then it better be a "product' that can be "marketed to" what in USA is called "the target demopgraphic", which really is not illiterate but rather a-literate 12-26 year old white males living in the suburbs..
That explains the flat hat/ soul patch, 45 minute productions for a 2 second jump or the whole carefully scripted, carefully produced and edited Gymkhana foofery, and this travesty called X-games and Globular Rally-crozz. Scripted, packaged, meaningless poo-poo (boy the word filter is strict round here) that is interesting to only those who know nothing except what they've seen on their TV or Game-boy screen.
You think 1 American in 20,000 could locate Monte Carlo on a map? Then know where Stavanger or Warsovie or Athens or anywhere for that matter is, much less be able to imagine the challenge of driving across the whole of Europe in January?

1 in 20,000..Pffft! I am overly optimistic as always. 1 in 100,000 maybe..but maybe not..
If it wasn't on TV or took more than 2 lines of text, it's too much bother.


Other than this I gave you a "like" for the rest of your thoughts :D

[Prisoner Monkeys]

But who in Colorado is going to:
Find the roads?
Deal with US Forest Service to secure roads?
Risk a couple of hundred thousand dollars just with bureaucratic hassles?
You make this out to be Mission: Impossible. But America has its own rally series, Rally America. And while it might be fledgling and largely unheard-of outside the States, there is a precedent here for a domestic rally scene.

Now, perhaps Colorado is a poor choice. I don't know; I don't live there. I simply chose it based on satellite and topographical maps of the area. I saw Denver, a city of 600,000 people hard up against the Rocky Mountains. I see tarmac, gravel and snow. I see Pike's Peak nearby, and I think to myself that maybe there is something going for it here. Maybe there is something to it that could jump-start a WRC event in America. I look at a map, and this is what I see as a potential stage:

gmap-pedometer.com (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5605606)

Okay, that's straight off the top of my head. I didn't look too closely at the details, so it may well cut houses off. But the satellite view shows these nice, wide open tarmac roads that meander between hills and around valleys. And there are more of these roads everywhere you look; you could comfortably make an event that the drivers would love, just be browsing Google Maps. Don't you think the average American would love to be able to say "Hey, we put on a world-class event that the top competitors in the world loved"?

It's probably better than my other choices, too - Los Angeles/San Francisco, Seattle and Rapid City in South Dakota, all of which i was looking at based on topographical maps.


You think 1 American in 20,000 could locate Monte Carlo on a map? Then know where Stavanger or Warsovie or Athens or anywhere for that matter is, much less be able to imagine the challenge of driving across the whole of Europe in January?
I think Americans are much smarter than you give them credit for. But even if they aren't, how do you know that having a world-class event won't light up a spark of imagination within them? They see this Rally of America, and they get inspired by the spectacle of it and start following the sport, and in the process, learn about Monte Carlo.

[Plan9]

I think the WRC should consider trying to acquire some of the rounds it lost due to the GFC, which are already well attended by fans/amateur drivers. I was thinking San Remo, Tour de Corse could fit the bill. Maybe also Circuit of Ireland and Ypres as these are legendary events and as WRC is supposed to be the top of the rally world it is decidedly odd that these events are not part of the regular roster.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

But it's not that simple - the WRC doesn't just acquire whatever events it wants whenever it wants to acquire them. All the events have to go through the WRC candidature process, and do rally organisers necessarily want to do that? Take, for example, the Ypres Rally. You point to it being a "legendary event", but if the organisers wanted to join the WRC, they would have to go through the WRC candidature process, which might not sit well with the orgnaisers because it would be a case of "we know you're a legendary event, but you still have to go through the selection process like any other rally".

I think the ideal calendar would be as varied as possible. To this end, I would suggest the following:

1) 16 events per year, with eight "core events" that are run on an annual basis, and sixteen "rotational events" that alternate year in and year out. I'd even go so far as to make mandatory route alterations from year to year (ie 30% of the rally - or an entire day - should be run on roads that have not been used previously or within a set number of years; perhaps two or three).

2) A more-global spread. Rallies need to be run in deserts, tropical jungles, on vertiginous mountain roads and flat-out gravel. Every event should pose a unique challenge, something that makes it instantly recogniseable, and if this means going somewhere - like Jordan - where crowd numbers are never going to be high, then so be it.

3) A variety of event types. We need sprints like the 2011 Rally Jordan, and endurance races like the 2012 Rally Argentina. And intermediate events like everything else. I'd even look into the possibility of having rallies that are only run at night.

[janvanvurpa]

You make this out to be Mission: Impossible. But America has its own rally series, Rally America. And while it might be fledgling and largely unheard-of outside the States, there is a precedent here for a domestic rally scene.

I am very familiar with Rally America Inc, NASA Rallysport and US Rally Championship, as well as California Rally Series.
And familiar with the process whereby Doug Havir "bought" the SCCA Rally series from a very ironically mis-named Kurt Spitzner.
And I competed regionally and did a few National Championship events between 1984 and now..even won one National round in our 2wd class
I even was entered in our round of the WRC when it returned to the USA as the last Group B event in history, 1986 Olympus Rally....I was in all the Swedish papers, last man to rally a Saab 96 in WRC.

Prior to beginning rally in America in 1984, I had spend most of the 1970s in Europe, mostly Sweden, later France racing moto-cross, eventually full time for 2 seasons.
So familiar with rally in USA and Canada, fairly familiar with most West European rally scenes, speak or spoke lots of languages, worked in several countries all motorsport oriented.

There IS a rally scene in USA, and it is extremely small time and amateurish..
Example "US Rally Championship" just cancelled its Delaware Rally in NY state: less than 1 month to go and they has 11 entries.
Within hours of NYC and tens of millions of people and they had 11 entries..


Now, perhaps Colorado is a poor choice. I don't know; I don't live there. I simply chose it based on satellite and topographical maps of the area. I saw Denver, a city of 600,000 people hard up against the Rocky Mountains. I see tarmac, gravel and snow. I see Pike's Peak nearby, and I think to myself that maybe there is something going for it here. Maybe there is something to it that could jump-start a WRC event in America. I look at a map, and this is what I see as a potential stage:

gmap-pedometer.com (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5605606)


Where will the marshalls, timers, road block crews etc come from? Rent-a-boys?


Okay, that's straight off the top of my head. I didn't look too closely at the details, so it may well cut houses off. But the satellite view shows these nice, wide open tarmac roads that meander between hills and around valleys. And there are more of these roads everywhere you look; you could comfortably make an event that the drivers would love, just be browsing Google Maps. Don't you think the average American would love to be able to say "Hey, we put on a world-class event that the top competitors in the world loved"?

Quite frankly I don't care or give much thought to what 4 guys might say, we have serious problems and I spend a lot of my very limited time helping getting cars into the woods in regional level events.
There is no manpower, no entries with Homologated cars, no point..


It's probably better than my other choices, too - Los Angeles

LA is in its own little world with barely 20 entries and an ornery gang of people with their own ideas about car classes that don't match any other classes in the other companies class structure..
And they can't get roads, and what few roads they can get are blinding fast desert roads with few turns and occasional wash-outs..Boring, no infrastructure.




/San Francisco,

Worse than LA although all the NoCal guys are OK guys, all 10 or 11 total people arond who are sporadically active.


Seattle
It ain't what it once was... EXTREMELY difficult to to impossible to get roads due to a made up excuse about dirt clods hitting pregnant baby gay salmons and hurting the fishies.. I know a forestry company road engineer who told me where the real sedimentation comes from but they use the pregnant baby gay salmons as an excuse.
Nobody wants to hurt them pregnant baby gay salmons..
Oddly its not an issue to the salmons just to the South of us in Oregon or noth in BC, Canada,



and Rapid City in South Dakota, all of which i was looking at based on topographical maps.

I love maps, I just spent 40 minutes looking at the lower reaches of the Dnieper river.
But maps don't show us where the people with the skills and financial resources to even begin planning an event are to be found.




I think Americans are much smarter than you give them credit for.
I know them, I have known them for 50+ years, allover the country. I am daily on the phone with people from most regions and across Canada (I make really good affordable rally suspension and build very good rally motors.)
I think there's a famous quote yep found it "
http://www.quotedb.com/images/authors/henry_mencken.jpg (http://www.quotedb.com/authors/henry-mencken)
http://www.quotedb.com/images/clear.gif "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." -

I stand by my estimates..



But even if they aren't, how do you know that having a world-class event won't light up a spark of imagination within them?

because it didn't in the 70s and I watched it not light up anything when we had 3 WRC rounds right here so, from first hand experience..of then and comparing the average rallysport fan then: adult late 20s to late 30s, aware, literate, to now 12-26, flat hat fanboi appallingly ignorant (Dood. Block is like World Champion like since forever, dood") or (Yeah Subie rules, didya know Subie was the first turbo 4wd car in WRC, Subie rulez, dood"
America, fawk yeah.


They see this Rally of America, and they get inspired by the spectacle of it and start following the sport, and in the process, learn about Monte Carlo.

No they get inspired so they buy some app for the telephone and pound the puddin to it..

How does that make more people in the woods, more cars, more event volunteers?
It hasn't and the pushing of the low level US stuff as "a like totally like amazing spectacle" for the past 12 years since that horribly ironically mis-named guy Spitzner has about destroyed US rally.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Please make an argument against a rally in the United States that cannot be made against any other nation in the world hosting a rally. Like, say, Moldova.

For example, you ask where marshalls, time-keepers and road block crews will come from in Denver, and you present this as proof that a rally cannot take place in the United States. But regardless of whether I wanted to start a rally in America or in Moldova, I would be faced with the same problem, which disproves your theorem that these are challenges unique to the United States.

Likewise, you point to the failure of the Press-on-Regardless to capture the public attention as another barrier to a successful rally being established. But it's been thirty-eight years since the Press-on-Regardless was a round of the WRC, so how on earth is anything that happened there and then relevant to here and now?

So please, make an argument against a rally in the United States that cannot be made against any other nation in the world hosting a rally. I'm dying to hear it.

[Franky]

Please make an argument against a rally in the United States that cannot be made against any other nation in the world hosting a rally. Like, say, Moldova.

For example, you ask where marshalls, time-keepers and road block crews will come from in Denver, and you present this as proof that a rally cannot take place in the United States. But regardless of whether I wanted to start a rally in America or in Moldova, I would be faced with the same problem, which disproves your theorem that these are challenges unique to the United States.

Likewise, you point to the failure of the Press-on-Regardless to capture the public attention as another barrier to a successful rally being established. But it's been thirty-eight years since the Press-on-Regardless was a round of the WRC, so how on earth is anything that happened there and then relevant to here and now?


First question, why bring up a country you know most likely nothing about?

And about your last paragraph, which I quoted above. He used analogy, saying that it didn't make any major change when the rounds were in US and why should it be any different now. (Sorry if I understood your point wrongly Janvanvurpa)

[Prisoner Monkeys]

First question, why bring up a country you know most likely nothing about?
Why do you assume I know nothing about it?

[Franky]

Why do you assume I know nothing about it?

You answered with a question to a question ...

I don't assume, I doubt and you haven't said anything to prove me wrong so far.

[Red bull]

Something different from Europe and south America.........THE SAFARI RALLY IN KENYA.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Take, for example, the Ypres Rally. You point to it being a "legendary event", but if the organisers wanted to join the WRC, they would have to go through the WRC candidature process, which might not sit well with the orgnaisers because it would be a case of "we know you're a legendary event, but you still have to go through the selection process like any other rally".


Can I just ask how Australia got the WRC back? Perth was government supported MAINLY with a state (West Australian) Tourism company pulling the rally in Perth. The local government too. But how did it as a "legendary event" in the WRC already get it's feet back in the WRC years later, on the other side of the country? Shame it left Perth.... but how come another rally didn't take its place? How did it come back and go to Coffs Harbour? Because there was a WRC in Australia before it gets priority over other candidates who would LOVE and truely be better off with a WRC round ie Poland, Ypres etc?

[janvanvurpa]

Give me the people in Denver's phone number and email addys.
You give me some assurance there will be hundreds, not the couple of dozen that exists in the1000km radius of Denver now.

And You tell me that they will show up at the next 7-10 events to work controls , learn the skills, develop a routine,,----oh WAIT!

There are no rallies anywhere near Denver now..., nearest rallies are 700 to 1000 km away..

Sorry I vaguely recall reading some utter crap somewhere with a distinctly similar "Just look at the maps" "logic"..

I will not waste any further time "bebating" with somebody a) who hides their real name--and is thus not a real human in mu eyes but a joke, and b) no location..
You should note that the best rally forum in USA was founded one evenuing in my driveway cause i have a pot of room and about 3 times the experience of the next guy so5-6 guys were here working on their nice Volvos and Fords.
We made one inflexible rule at that forum we call Rally Anarchy - Don't Panic (http://www.rallyanarchy.com) and that is REAL NAME, REAL LOCATION---and age..

And it works....no bullsheeeet, and even better, no moderators...

So I'm done with you unless I know who and where I'm talking to and you listen and stop talking "you get them in Denver". That is so ridiculous that I doubt you are an adult.

Done.



Please make an argument against a rally in the United States that cannot be made against any other nation in the world hosting a rally. Like, say, Moldova.

For example, you ask where marshalls, time-keepers and road block crews will come from in Denver, and you present this as proof that a rally cannot take place in the United States. But regardless of whether I wanted to start a rally in America or in Moldova, I would be faced with the same problem, which disproves your theorem that these are challenges unique to the United States.

Likewise, you point to the failure of the Press-on-Regardless to capture the public attention as another barrier to a successful rally being established. But it's been thirty-eight years since the Press-on-Regardless was a round of the WRC, so how on earth is anything that happened there and then relevant to here and now?

So please, make an argument against a rally in the United States that cannot be made against any other nation in the world hosting a rally. I'm dying to hear it.

No, not interested in "argument" I am too busy making parts for rally boys cars.

[janvanvurpa]

Something different from Europe and south America.........THE SAFARI RALLY IN KENYA.


Yep! absolutely! And with whatever format the local organisers decide.
All Power to the Sovi !---uh wait,
Some Power to the Local committees!

(dayum just doesn't sound as inspiring as "All Power to the Soviets!" does it?)

[janvanvurpa]

First question, why bring up a country you know most likely nothing about?

And about your last paragraph, which I quoted above. He used analogy, saying that it didn't make any major change when the rounds were in US and why should it be any different now. (Sorry if I understood your point wrongly Janvanvurpa)

Well the truth is that there was a difference: exhaustion from overwork because such a shortage of volunteers.

You can only maintain enthusiasm so long and after 4 years of diminsihing entries, less and less attention from local media--zero from National media, and down to maybe --seriously 100---200 spectators in last year---and many just got tired.

I ran a small specialty shop then building and rebuilding Saab 96 and 95 V4 cars, most into something like 1969 RAC spec---except final drive ratio!---and had a lot of customers in Seattle. In '85 a few voluteered to work Olympus, in 86 when driving. I saw maybe 35 of my customers---and it hit me there were in a way "fans", and I was shocked, by end of 88, none were volunteering.

Oh and we lost maybe 1/4 of the cars that guys with big stars in their eyes had built on the way UP the wave..Dropped out never to be seen again. So for example in 85 a National might have 50 cars total (regional included), by 89 there were events with under 20 entries. Insane.

[Munkvy]

I think the Manx would make a great addition, as long as the organisers said no SuperRally like Monte Carlo did. Would make for a very interesting spectacle. Although whether the island is big enough for the WRC crews on top of all the usual entrants could be a challenge.

Otherwise San Remo, running as a true mixed surface event, ie half the day in tarmac trim, then half in gravel. Not just changing tyres either, but having complete setup changes - this would add a real unique element to the championship just like it used to be in the 80s and 90s.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I don't assume, I doubt and you haven't said anything to prove me wrong so far.
Whether or not I know anything about a country like Moldova is inconsequential to the point I am trying to make: that the challengesjanvanvurpa presents as being unique to the United States, are not as unique as he makes them out to be.

But for the record, I actually know quite a bit about Moldova. I deliberately chose a country that I was familiar with, but one that other people might not necessarily know too much. That way, if someone said "If you want to hold a rally in Moldova, where are all the officials going to come from?", I could use my knowledge of the country to assess whether or not they had made an argument that fit the condition I set out. So far, that hasn't happened yet.

And you did assume that I don't know anything about Moldova. Why do you think I picked it out of the two-hundred odd countries in this world when I was trying to make a point? It was certainly no coincidence.

[janvanvurpa]

Whether or not I know anything about a country like Moldova is inconsequential to the point I am trying to make: that the challengesjanvanvurpa presents as being unique to the United States, are not as unique as he makes them out to be.

But for the record, I actually know quite a bit about Moldova. I deliberately chose a country that I was familiar with, but one that other people might not necessarily know too much. That way, if someone said "If you want to hold a rally in Moldova, where are all the officials going to come from?", I could use my knowledge of the country to assess whether or not they had made an argument that fit the condition I set out. So far, that hasn't happened yet.

And you did assume that I don't know anything about Moldova. Why do you think I picked it out of the two-hundred odd countries in this world when I was trying to make a point? It was certainly no coincidence.


I would say there is more chance of pulling off a WRC event in Moldova than in USA.

Unless they all ignore everything that anybody with direct first hand experience tries to tell them.
Like you have so far.
It is good you know something about Moldova, it can counterbalance what you do not know about little (in rally world terms) poor USA. where you really can say with all honesty: If you are a rally driver, then you are 1 in a million.
Population: 310,000,000. And rally drivers: about 310. or less.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Unless they all ignore everything that anybody with direct first hand experience tries to tell them.
Like you have so far.
This coming from the guy who was making an argument against a rally being possible in America based on something that happened forty years ago. The fact that you presented this as compelling evidence of anything at all makes me question the validity of everything else you have said. I find it hilarious that you seem to think this qualifies as "direct first-hand experience" of rallying, while you have conveniently ignored the way the city I suggested could host a rally already hosts a world-class off-road racing event.

Gee, those Denverites really have no idea know what they're doing. What's eighty-nine world-class events compared to something that was mismanaged forty years ago in Michigan?

[janvanvurpa]

This coming from the guy who was making an argument against a rally being possible in America based on something that happened forty years ago. The fact that you presented this as compelling evidence of anything at all makes me question the validity of everything else you have said. I find it hilarious that you seem to think this qualifies as "direct first-hand experience" of rallying, while you have conveniently ignored the way the city I suggested could host a rally already hosts a world-class off-road racing event.

Gee, those Denverites really have no idea know what they're doing. What's eighty-nine world-class events compared to something that was mismanaged forty years ago in Michigan?


Whatever your name is, stop being stupid.
I work every single day on rally parts and projects and am in touch email and phone with drivers and event organisers all over USA and Canada.
My expereince is TODAY, this evening and here. Yours we have no idea execpt you like to type nonsense and like to argue.

You fool, I have said there is maybe 15 rallyists in Denver or Colorado, I know virtually every one, and have supplied major parts I build and advice to them on building, motors brakes, suspension and "approach" to the sport.
I have already said taht there are no rallies for hundreds and hundreds of miles--
Nearest is Rally Idaho, 1352 km, or Hundred acre Woods in Salem , MO, also about 1350 km, next is Bemidji Minnesota 1600km then Mt Hood, Oregon, 2060km. Nothing local, no organisers, no volunteers.
Why do you keep blabbering about this? You know nothing of the scene on the ground, not 25 years ago, not today so shut up about rally in Denver and in USA, and talk about what you do know, where ever it is you are--talk about your participation--you do participate in some role we must presume if you are so argumentative.
Or, is your whole involvement in rally arguing on forums?

Again we WERE trying to talk about what events to add to the WRC--which is of course total pub talk, but we weren't talking about hosting closed course off road races in Denver---Off Road IS popular there and there IS a designated off road playground called CORE---and all my fiends in Denver paid membership to the place and the Off-road guys, feeling a bit sorry for the poor *******s, were nice enough to bulldoze a nice loop for the poor rally guys. Too bad that CORE is teetering on bankruptcy since the US economy was wrecked by Wall Street speculators and a lot of very silly people..And a lot of absurd people who blabbed about things they knew nothing of.

I said before, with some silly name and not even the courage to put a name and a location, your words, all of them, are useless.
I will not have an anonymous nobody tell me that I don't know the problems we're all facing here in USA now, especially since it has changed so much since I began with this sport.

So again, put up a name and a location, tell us what role you have in the sport so we see why we should listen to you.
Or STFU. :s mash:

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Okay, I think you're taking things a little bit too seriously here. The idea of a rally in America was only ever fantasy on my part. As you yourself pointed out, this was only ever intended to be pub talk, and that is as far as this conversation is going.

[Sulland]

Some Interesting arguments here.

The reason I tend to come back to the US is the following; when a sport is picked up, and commercialised in USA, things start to happen. Look to road cycling, off road cycling, soccer, and now rally cross.

The special thing in the US is that most sports that become big, have two elements in them. Most are happening in a small area where you as a spectator see it all, or they have a good way of producing on TV.

Rally has a challenge here. If you make it too compact, you are down to Mickey Mouse Mini Rally types events, so you need a larger area. As a spectator you do not see the cars much, and TV and Internet coverage have not kept up with time and technology.

If Rally is to succeed in the US, the key will be to start updating the tech side. Start using streaming, and have side by side video of drivers, split times, results, live tech data - as revs gearing, g- force, interviews and so on awailable online.

So the spectator can follow his or her preferred drivers live, and keep up to date with all types of results. Fewer and fewer are willing to walk for miles and see the cars for a few seconds, but miss out on the bigger picture.
All of this can of course be reached from mobile devices at the stages, or from home!

If FIA and RedBull start working in that direction, they will have a chance of winning the US, and winning larger crowds of fans in the rest of the world as well!!

[AndyRAC]

Surely you have events to suit each market. So, if there was a US round, you would have a ultra compact fan friendly event. Isn't that common sense? People have been brainwashed by the 'one size fits all' WRC modern event. The time has come for each event to do what they want - and what suits each event.

[janvanvurpa]

Okay, I think you're taking things a little bit too seriously here. The idea of a rally in America was only ever fantasy on my part. As you yourself pointed out, this was only ever intended to be pub talk, and that is as far as this conversation is going.


Of course I take this seriously, whatever the ______ you are, my living depends on the heath of the sport since I manufacture things, it's just keyboard fapping to you--obviously. And as I said, the sport is suffering ---and therefore I am suffering---since in America, so many motorsport oriented tend to egomaniacs, and asocial, and apolitical and many are mistakenly thinking they are smarter than, just like you, people with decades more direct experience. So just like millions bought houses on credit that they couldn't afford, there have always been too many here that buy cars and pour money into making them into rally cars at rates they can't afford, tow rigs have to be the latest, and then they drop out after maybe 5 events over 2 years...

So brainless dream talk, I'm sick of it. Got it? Pie in the Sky---screw that, done it when there was twice the participation. Screw it. This gawddam country needs a firm foundation built, and always has.

It need the associated connections that happens with there is a diverse entry with 100-150 guys entering, not 15 like now.

It REMAINS on a level of about 2 clubs in any decent country because the idiot talk you've been doing done by dreamy eyed guys in garages all by themselves---or lied to by greedy and cynical business (lying to them that "the big time is just around the corner, spend LOTS now and you'll get a sponsorship from Subaru!!!) and arguing ---exactly like you've been doing.

IF this was a pub and some obviously completely ignorant ass___________ were to start fantasizing about some utterly and THEN start mouthing off with crap like " that makes me doubt the validity of EVERYTHING you said" and goes on and on NEVER ONCE adding a single morsel to indicate he knew ANYTHING, and never once acknowledging a single piece of the piles of info supplied, I think somebody would be real close to being a bit ruffled up. especialy the seat of their pant might be getting ruffled by a large shoe.


And you STILL have taken the cowardly course and not said who you are, where you are and just what you do in rally, and for that you're dropped right in the category of total keyboard hero.

[sollitt]

John, although the conversation has gotten a little wayward, I understand what you're saying and you're absolutely correct.

The WRC is about the greatest drivers in the greatest events. And great events are developed ... you do not create them overnight.
Without a history and a strong infrastructure you will simply not develop the expertise required to run a specialised event at this level.

Rally NZ, as an example, benefits from an army of volunteers, filling roles from the lowly block marshall right up to the Clerk of Course, who have decades of learning and progression which they would not have achieved had the sport not been strong here.

In the events that I'm involved with, we invest hugely in sending our people to other events to both mentor and be mentored to ensure that when the pressure is on they perform their tasks instinctively. And there is no greater pressure than a WRC round.

That is why NZ rally officials are in such huge demand around the globe supporting, advising, mentoring other organisers.
If you shut the door on such events, opting for countries 'with the big markets', you remove the incentive for this progression and the expertise will be lost to detriment of the sport as a whole.

And don't think it will be substituted by people from the new territories. It won't. Those with the capacity to buy ... don't build.

If a country hasn't embraced the sport of rallying, at all of it's levels, they are not likely to consider the WRC highly when it arrives for a 3 day visit, and frankly, they don't deserve the opportunity.

[Gregor-y]

There are still regular eastern US events that draw 45-60 cars. I'd say the Michigan/Minnesota/Missouri area is the best bet but then that's because those are the events where I can easily volunteer and regularly attend. Talk to the local organizers and their two biggest problems are working with local governments (particularly 100 Acre Wood which is spread across four counties and as many towns) and finding enough locals to be organizers next year. There's not much shortage of volunteers and there are a few hundred people that come in to spectate in addition to support crews. Like I said before accommodations would be the real problem with a WRC round at most US locations.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Brazil. They're in the news, they have the money, they should have the support and they have the rally area as Nobre has said

[janvanvurpa]

Brazil. They're in the news, they have the money, they should have the support and they have the rally area as Nobre has said

Should is a very slippery word and I think it should be forbidden.
But since you brought up slippery things Brasilienne, they have the babes, millions of them, and very famously friendly..
Veeeeery friendly aj aj aj!
I believe there would be the danger that the WRC "Circus" would go there and then, after then after all the guys are showered with attention with and fought over by the beautiful locals wimmins, just decide not to leave. Ever.

Somebody should look into that danger. I'm older and more experienced in that area that all you guys, and I can probably handle it, somebody should forward my name to FIA and I'll pack my bags. PM me thru the forum or just Google "JVAB".
After I'm done we should know if it's safe to send the men of WRC to Brasil

[wrc1600]

Poland :)

[janvanvurpa]

Poland :)

Why not?! Good roads, good scenery, good organization, close to Estland, Lituania, Latvia, Ukraine, Russia and Finland is just across the water, Czech isn't far, could be good entry. I just was speaking with a guy here in USA who called about rallysuspension for his Subarau, and he said that area they ran before is his home area, said its very fun roads, good surface, lots of twisty bits.

[scn]

Bring back Corsica and San Remo.

No asphalt rally has the flavour of Corsica, even now that is in IRC. I have been in Rally d' Alsace, Rally of Germany, Catalunia and I can say that all of them fall behind Corsica by far. Surely, because of their location they have more spectators, but once you have seen just one Corsican special stage you realize that "asphalt rallying=Corsica". Period.

Also, I have been in Sardinia and I like it a lot, but old asphalt-gravel San Remo in Tuscany was something else. Rallying is not just special stages. It is also the atmosphere, the environment and the character that an event must have.

Regarding US, for God's sake, no, no, no. Rallying is simply out of the American culture and, most important, totally out of the culture of American car industry. Back in the '80s FIA tried it and it was a total failure. There were whole special stages without a single spectator. Even the empty stages of Turkey and Mexico could be called crowded in comparison to the ones in US.

[janvanvurpa]

Bring back Corsica and San Remo.

No asphalt rally has the flavour of Corsica, even now that is in IRC. I have been in Rally d' Alsace, Rally of Germany, Catalunia and I can say that all of them fall behind Corsica by far. Surely, because of their location they have more spectators, but once you have seen just one Corsican special stage you realize that "asphalt rallying=Corsica". Period.

Also, I have been in Sardinia and I like it a lot, but old asphalt-gravel San Remo in Tuscany was something else. Rallying is not just special stages. It is also the atmosphere, the environment and the character that an event must have.

Regarding US, for God's sake, no, no, no. Rallying is simply out of the American culture and, most important, totally out of the culture of American car industry. Back in the '80s FIA tried it and it was a total failure. There were whole special stages without a single spectator. Even the empty stages of Turkey and Mexico could be called crowded in comparison to the ones in US.


Corse et san Remo...both fantastic (of course if they choose real roads in Corse)...

But re Olympus running stages without a single speccie. I was at '85 (FIA shakedown year) I drove '86, was at 87 and was service --organised the 2 trucks and 5 local volunteers for Canadian P Champion Liall Leslie at the last one in '88.
What you say is completely untrue.. On most stages there were at least 8 to 10 spectators and some stages as many as 50 in one place in the early years. By '88 there were a few less but at leeast at the Finish ceremony, there were, aside from service crews and event workers there were maybe 30 faces I didn't recognize.
So there! :eek:

[Plan9]

Why did the FIA reduce the calander to 13 events? Would'nt it be easier to attrack new/legendary events to the WRC if the calander was extended?

[janvanvurpa]

Why did the FIA reduce the calander to 13 events? Would'nt it be easier to attrack new/legendary events to the WRC if the calander was extended?

From endless complaints of costs from the manufacturer teams is what I recall.

[stefanvv]

From endless complaints of costs from the manufacturer teams is what I recall.

i.e. Citroen & Ford. That didn't helped other Japanese teams to stay in WRC though.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Brazil. They're in the news, they have the money, they should have the support and they have the rally area as Nobre has said
The FIA was considering adding as many as two rallies to the 2013 calendar, with Brazil, India, Russia and South Africa all considered for inclusion before the plan was abandoned.

[Gregor-y]

What you say is completely untrue.. On most stages there were at least 8 to 10 spectators and some stages as many as 50 in one place in the early years. By '88 there were a few less but at leeast at the Finish ceremony, there were, aside from service crews and event workers there were maybe 30 faces I didn't recognize.
So there! :eek:
You need to come east for Sno*Drift some time, assuming you can still handle the cold! ;) There actually are crowds out there nowadays. I'm always looking for people to volunteer with timekeeping since the equipment is starting to wear out...

[GigiGalliNo1]

Can we please agree to disagree that if there is a rally in the USA it would both be a success and failure. We have people saying yes there are supporters, yes there are people, yes people will go. We have some saying where are the people going to come from, who will run it and if there will be any drivers/teams. We have people saying it has worked in the past (70's/80's) and some saying it didn't work. We have people who drove and spectated and some people who have never been or seen rallies in the US. I think this banter should stop. If the rally happens in the US then it will. If it doesn't then it won't. People here are saying rallies in the WRC calendar have had decades and history so that is the reason why they are in the WRC... but at one stage they had to start!! You can start a US rally or a Canadian rally or Brazillian rally for the WRC. That's where the History will BEGIN. Whether someone says it won't or will work is just back and forth in the forum/Thread. Yes we can and this is a place to discuss but it's going from yes to no to yes to no - and none of us are getting anywhere. Can we change the way the US people see rally? I'm not sure. I think its best to keep it an E X T R E M E sport like gymkhana and X-games... simplifies it for the market there with the Blocks and Pastramas.

[janvanvurpa]

You need to come east for Sno*Drift some time, assuming you can still handle the cold! ;) There actually are crowds out there nowadays. I'm always looking for people to volunteer with timekeeping since the equipment is starting to wear out...

Drive 3500km to drive around averaging 65 to 70 km/hr with a complete lack of grip--since the organizers have decided to stonewall any discussion or even thoughts of studded tires? Why do you think its called Slo-drift? :confused: And cold? Why would cold bother me? Last event I did was in central British Columbia's Okanogan Valley based Thunderbird Rally and it was two days of nice cold winter rally---"Monte Carlo format Regularity rally----over 850 km for a nice entry of $185... And when I was out East I did Pierce Niege National where it was -40 one week and the following week after some quick roof beautification via Bondo :uhoh: , Rally Quebec where it was around -30......again no studs was my only complaint... :crazy:

That obstinate decades long refusal to even discuss honestly the possibility of studded tires by the Michigan Mafia shows an willful inflexibility that demonstartes excellently why its so hard for a US WRC round with a straight face, and why only humor and satire in discussions are the logical response. The Michigan Mafia tries transparent dismissal and redicule evrey time it comes up (yearly) then if one is persistant and doesn't accept their lame answers then argue BS dogma, to wit "It's illegal in Michigan to use studs so there neener neener!!!" 2 minutes Googling Michigans laws shows this to be completely false.
When cornered with the direct question "Has anybody ever even asked if studs could be used (under a dispensation, the same dispensation that allows us to zoom down county roads at 100 knots) One of the gang finally--very meekly answered "No we've never asked" and then---the key thing in reference to this thread of possible new WRC events----they resort to the stupidest "logic" of all : That's the way we've always done it" and the equally boneheaded "And its the same for everybody"......
All to avoid even considering a change... doesn't bode well, but that's the way it goes with those Mid-west guys.

Tavarich Gregor, even if it was close by I still don't think it would be anything for me or most of the guys I know. hell I know 4-5 guys nearby Slo-Drift who after sliding around in corners covered in polished ice (from other spinning unstudded tires) at 10 km/hr, now say "I can't be bothered, its not fun enough" especially with a around $1000 entry fee.

Note: we averaged in that BC snow event open to any ordinary car speeds very similar to more than half the field at the supposed "stage rally". No drama...just studs..

But tavarich, we better throw something in about WRC cause somebodys is getting pissed off at our friendly observations..

So, CANADA is the only hope because they have the underlying club network needed. they have clubs because they're godless Sossie Reds--they even make the leaf in their flag Red---and the basis of Red Sossi-ism is cooperation.
Damn I feel a need to belt out a few stanzas of The Internationale!
"Вставай, проклятьем заклеймённый,
Весь мир голодных и рабов!
Кипит наш разум возмущённый
И в смертный бой вести готов.
Весь мир насилья мы разрушим
До основанья, а затем
Мы наш, мы новый мир построим, —
Кто был ничем, тот станет всем"

Rallyists of the world unite!
You have nothing to loose but your brains! :D

[janvanvurpa]

Can we please agree to disagree that if there is a rally in the USA it would both be a success and failure. We have people saying yes there are supporters, yes there are people, yes people will go. We have some saying where are the people going to come from, who will run it and if there will be any drivers/teams. We have people saying it has worked in the past (70's/80's) and some saying it didn't work. We have people who drove and spectated and some people who have never been or seen rallies in the US. I think this banter should stop. If the rally happens in the US then it will. If it doesn't then it won't. People here are saying rallies in the WRC calendar have had decades and history so that is the reason why they are in the WRC... but at one stage they had to start!! You can start a US rally or a Canadian rally or Brazillian rally for the WRC. That's where the History will BEGIN. Whether someone says it won't or will work is just back and forth in the forum/Thread. Yes we can and this is a place to discuss but it's going from yes to no to yes to no - and none of us are getting anywhere. Can we change the way the US people see rally? I'm not sure. I think its best to keep it an E X T R E M E sport like gymkhana and X-games... simplifies it for the market there with the Blocks and Pastramas.


Easy easy, my colleague from distant Czechcago and I are just sharing our love for rally and its future in our poor land.

But one thing above, the WRC sprang up from a series of already successful events that were already popular before there was a "title" artificially string them into a "series".... RAC was successful, and extremely;y popular, especially after Eric Carlsson crushed the whole world in the mighty Saab 96. Monte was extremely popular with entries into the 300s before the Series was invented, etc etc..
We should never forget that.
I try and convince my fellow dreamer/countrymen that we must concentrate on making one event a solid base, a sustainable event which sends out runners or shoots underground from which spring up and blossom other events..
Then in other places, those guys like Tavarich Gregorij, they build a solid event that survives and sustaains itself, then other comrades in whereever do the same..
Such is the only way for the "Series' to survive or flourish.
(Guess i've ben out in the garden, eh?)

[AndyRAC]

Nail on head. Plenty of events were successful, popular and massive in their respective countries before they were included in the WRC. If there was no WRC, some would still run, regardless; I;e Monte, Finland.

Brazil, Russia and India are all huge markets - but how popular is the sport in these countries? No point in going if it's 3 men and a llama....

[Barreis]

Bring back 1998 calendar.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

So, I've been fiddling around with the GMaps Pedometer, and I think a rally in Austria could be very interesting. The rally could be based in the town of Graz in the south of the country, with the event run over twisty and slippery roads in the Austrian Alps. It would be predominantly tarmac, and if run in the summer, it would be a kind of Monte Carlo without the ice and snow and more margin for error.

I'm also intrigued by the idea of a tropical rally, which has really been absent from the calendar since the Safari Rally and Rally Indonesia were removed from the calendar. To that end, I think Thailand would be an interesting choice, with the event possibly being run out of the resort town of Phuket. I imagine the stages would be a sort of sandy, silty clay, and the climate hot and humid. Failing that, Malaysia could work; they already have a Formula 1 Grand Prix and a round of the MotoGP championship.

I said the other day that reviving the Rally of Japan could be a way to lure Japanese manufacturers back into the sport - but I also think that South Korea could do the same. Holding the rally in Japan might make more sense, but there are some interesing roads in Korea, particularly in the area around Chungju, Jecheon and Danyang in the centre of the country. But I think it would be a big risk, particularly if the manuacturers don't return; the Korean Grand Prix hasn't been a raging success (and I suspect the entire point of it was to lure Hyundai into the sport - so far, they haven't taken the bait).

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Pardon the double-post, but it's been about a week since I've been active in here and I've just through of another idea for a rally - Croatia. There's some great roads running down the Adriatic coastline that current serve as highways, but in the next few years they're going to be replaced by a brand-new highway that runs from Trieste in Italy all the way down to Athens. With Jean Todt's push for "endurance" rallies, an event in Croatia that starts in Split and runs north to Rijeka near the Italian border could be fantastic: wide-high-quality roads loaded with sweepers that just keep climbing and climbing.

I also reckon there's potential for an incredibly demanding rally in India. There are some torturous-looking roads in the foothills of the Himalayas, and I wonder how World Rally Cars would cope with them. When Formula 1 used to go to Mexico City, it was a tough race because the high altitudes meant that there was less air to suck into the engines. I wonder how World Rally Cars would handle that, though I would have some concerns about safety if someone got stuck - some of those roads are very, very lonely.

[BleAivano]

Roads themselves don't organize a rally...

so you're saying Croatian people wouldn't be able to host a WRC event?

They already have an event in the ERC.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Roads themselves don't organize a rally...
No, they don't - I'm simply stating that I think there are roads in Croatia that would be good enough to hold a rally on. For example:

gmap-pedometer.com (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5631192)

gmap-pedometer.com (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5631194)

gmap-pedometer.com (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5631199)

And that's just from spending two minutes with the Google Maps pedometer.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I never said that it was a realistic proposition - just that I felt that the idea of an event there had potential. That's all any of my suggestions have ever been: ideas for events that I think will bring something to the WRC calendar that would make them stand out. I never pretended they were ever anything else. Whether or not they are feasible is another matter entierly.

[DonJippo]

so you're saying Croatian people wouldn't be able to host a WRC event?

They already have an event in the ERC.

Well they should first learn how to keep people off from driving on stages when competitors are on it...

[Barreis]

Well it wasn't Croatian. That was stranger on holidays who didn't understand a word of Croatian language and also didn't know what was going on. :P

[stefanvv]

Rally Sliven is definitely the one worth being added to the WRC - calendar.
It's an event unique on its own.

The vid below says it all...

That's not what I meant. My memories go beyond these drifts.

[danon]

That's not what I meant. My memories go beyond these drifts.

Beyond the beginning of this historic vid...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmdcDcKi6mM

... or even further beyond...

[stefanvv]

Beyond the beginning of this historic vid...

Oh yeah, my kind of video :up: Last part is from the Hill climb though, still the same stages.

[Col du Turini]

My calendar

Monte Carlo obviously.

Sweden/Norway Start it in Lillehammer, Day 1 in Norway, Day 2 + 3 in Sweden. Best of both rallies.

Safari Look up the TV broadcasts + rally guides of the recent Safari rallies. Not the marathon that it was before (2012 had 322 competitive km), but still the spectacle. Closed roads are already in place, as they should be. It would be easy to add a couple more stages in the same area to bring the competitive km to around 400+km, adding a third day in the process. National Rally could take place over 2 days.

Portugal Good, but needs improvement. Find some tarmac roads or something, and see if you can fit Fafe in there somewhere. Would be a long liaison, but who cares?

Acropolis Good. Perhaps longer?

United States or Canada Hey! Don't shoot me down just yet, hear me out. Either a rally using gravel and tarmac roads by Denver/Pikes Peak etc, or a Rally of the Tall Pines style rally in Ontario, Canada. Red Bull should sponsor it, get Pastrana and Block involved, get the US Press into it.Argentina Continue with the long route, it's great.

Finland Good. Few more stages around Lahti? Keep Ouninpohja, obviously.
Germany Mmm. A good car market, but Alsace just next door. Would prefer a Strasbourg-Trier joint France-Germany event, but if I had to choose between the two, Germany gets the nod.

European Round Tempted by a 24 hour blast round the gravel tracks and tarmac roads of Cyprus, day or night. Perhaps a Eastern European Tarmac round - Bulgaria, Slovenia, Czech Republic etc, that would be different. What about going back to Corsica? An Possibly could be a Belgian/Dutch round - similar to Ypres. Or a Baltic Rally - 3 days, 3 countries, unknown gravel roads. Or what about Ireland - a Treacherous tarmac rally. Dunno about this round.

Malaysia Chance of government backing, and by big brands such as Petronas. There are lots of palm oil plantations and forests with narrow muddy tracks that surround the Sepang F1 circuit (a perfect Service venue + possible SSS) as well as the forests around the airport next door. Challenging roads, nothing like anywhere else on the calendar, and Malaysia is a growing car market. Why not?

New Zealand/Australia Since we are already in this part of the world, let's stick around for one of two classic events. Rotate each year. If I had to pick, New Zealand.

Catalunya/Sanremo Rotate between the mixed surface Catalunya, and a mixed surface Sanremo. Catalunya needs to start using the Tarmac in the Pyrenees, above Barcelona, again. Sanremo needs to find some gravel roads in Tuscany to use. If I had to pick, probably Catalunya.

RAC Enough said. If it has to stay in Wales, use all of Wales in a blast from North to South. Otherwise move the rally up North to use Kielder, Grizedale and Dalby etc.

14 rounds.

3 simple rules
Drivers drop scores in 3 events, not entering a event also counts as dropping a score.Drivers have to visit at least 3 long-haul events (Safari, Argentina, USA, New Zealand, Malaysia).
Drivers have to visit at least 1 event on each surface (Snow, Tarmac, Gravel)


>> Red Bull Media House, job done. email me, I'll happily join the team. :P

Sorry Mexico, even the long stages you added last year isn't enough for me to save you...

[DimiDeend]

Всем привет! Вы всегда уверены что правы?

[Mirek]

This is English speaking forum. Use English, please.

[COD]

Bring back Safari, no 1.

Then old Australia (Perth), then old RAC (Kielder etc), then Corsica instead of Alsace.

[mstfozkan]

wrc need sponspors so they have to go middle east..

[Mitch555]

There has been some murmur of Asian-Pacific Rallies on here. Here are my thoughts...

Australia
At the moment, I think the rally will be staying in Coffs Harbour. Despite losing the iconic stages, it is really the only option. Tourism Western Australia no longer supported WRC, thus why it ended up moving, and I believe some of the forests have changed ownership, making it hard. Coffs Harbour isn't the best place, however, suitable forests which have "Australian" natured roads, near one of our big cities is hard to find. Western Australia is very unique, and it would take a bucket load of money to get it back there without the support of the government...

New Zealand
I don't think there is any doubt of it leaving the calendar, but it is very much a shrinking car market, when we look at the rest of the world, which is why I'm guessing its on rotation at the moment sadly. Running Australia and NZ back to back is a good idea though. There were talks back in 2002 of having a start in Europe, and spending considerable time out of Europe, before returning for the European summer for a couple of events, and then for Wales Rally GB at the end of the year. That could work well for the AUS/NZ combo.

Japan
Obviously the number 1 in the Asian market, so you'd want to be there. Hokkaido (APRC/WRC) did get a bit tired in the end, but it was a awesome rally when the Japanese manufacturers were there. With Subaru having announced a 1.6L WRX STI and Toyota showing interest, it wouldn't be a bad time to look into rallying there again. The Alpine Rally is another option, except based closer to Tokyo and not out in the Gunma region. Instead maybe west of Tokyo, where there are plenty of mountain passes. I can imagine it being a successful rally in Japan due to the 'Touge' style. So I'd be looking at Otsuki region. Cleaner and less out in the Styx which the Japanese may prefer, and a far bigger population base to work off with Tokyo.

Malaysia
Malaysia is very unique, similar to the old Indonesian WRC round except without the sandy base. The clay base when wet is diabolical! It runs very close to Kuala Lumpur too. So definitely a possibility. A very slow rally when wet, and certainly a big challenge for drivers. Getting numbers to this event is probably an issue, given that the Malay championship isn't huge.

China
It's been explored before, currently based a couple of hours away from Shanghai. Finding enough gravel roads would be tricky in that region, given they currently run stages on concrete town roads as well which would be far too fast for WRC cars!!! Could happen in the next decade as China continues to become a more developed economy.

Indonesia
Don't like its chances having been dropped from the APRC due to security concerns in Sulawesi. However, this is now a dry dusty rough rally, not the rally ran in the WRC. Small local championship too. The fact that Thailand has been re-introduced in the calendar for 2013, ahead of Indonesia speaks volumes, given Indonesia still has a bigger local championship.

Thailand
Having travelled to Phuket, I would very much doubt there would be a WRC rally there. Still getting there with development, and the gravel roads aren't graded that much. Currently, the Kings Cup Rally of Thailand is based an hour out of Bangkok, so pretty well placed, however, they do not have access to many roads (only 3-4 different stages reversed last year). Despite being a big builder of cars, Thailand again doesn't have the market for Euro brands considering how cheap it is to buy a Japanese car over there.

India
Hasn't been in the APRC for 7/8 years now. No local FIA homologated cars either.

[Rallying UK]

Malcolm Wilson of M-Sport made a very interesting point during a Q&A at the Autosport Show recently, about the future shape of the World Rally Championship.

Wilson was asked about the “geographical spread” of WRC events and in his answer, he correctly pointed to emerging countries and the imperative to get WRC into countries such as China, Brazil, Russia in the future.

This makes eminent sense - not just for giving rallying truly global reach to potentially massive audiences but it also makes sense from the manufacturer’s perspective i.e. high-volume car sales in huge new markets.

If WRC is to survive, the fact is it has to ‘escape’ from being a predominantly European-based championship, into a truly global one.

However, this will not be as easy to deliver as it sounds.

It is unsustainable though to continue with a calendar that has WRC events in Germany and France - rallies that are virtually identical in terms of the challenge to drivers and cars and less than 100 miles apart geographically.


How many rallies through picturesque vineyards, do we really need in a calendar that has a finite number of events?

The bottom line is, WRC needs a refresh and we in Europe need to encourage this change and not be resistant to it, if rallying is to have a sustainable global future.

Here’s the video of the Q&A in which Malcolm made his remarks. It starts at the point where he is talking about this important issue: M-Sport WRC 2013 reveal - AUTOSPORT International - YouTube (http://youtu.be/QZV6zIj7dyY?t=12m7s)

I think both Russia and India have a good case to host an event.

The one certainty is, the manufacturers will be eyeing emerging markets closely. The centre of gravity may be about to shift when it comes to WRC!

[Franky]

I think both Russia and India have a good case to host an event.


Considering what Mitch555 wrote just before you:


India
Hasn't been in the APRC for 7/8 years now. No local FIA homologated cars either.

I wouldn't put too much hope for India. Rallying needs locals input as well, not the ten or so teams doing the whole championship.

[sollitt]

I think both Russia and India have a good case to host an event.

On what basis? Population? You've got to be kidding!

[rallyfiend]

It is unsustainable though to continue with a calendar that has WRC events in Germany and France - rallies that are virtually identical in terms of the challenge to drivers and cars and less than 100 miles apart geographically.


How many rallies through picturesque vineyards, do we really need in a calendar that has a finite number of events?


Unsustainable to have the two of the most successful and popular events on the calendar?

This geographical proximity thing is a load of crap to focus on.

They need to get rid of crap events like Wales Rally GB first. The only way to get the MSA to sort their house out is to force their hand otherwise they'll just keep pulling profit from the contribution made by the Welsh Assembly Government and not making a better event.

[navtheace]

United Arab Emirates and Qatar

Could well make their way onto the WRC calendar in the future.

Plenty of money to buy part of their way in too. However, the cars in the WRC are not so popular in the Middle East. ie DS3 and Fiesta. Ironically these two cars are the ones sponsored by the middle east countries. But we all know it is all about the Middle East drivers wanting to enjoy driving in a works team, they are not interested with these brand of cars in the middle east.

[Rallying UK]

Potential market. It's huge.

[Rallying UK]

Two rallies that straddle the French / German border, through virtually the same vineyards, is becoming a bit of a yawn.

Wales Rally GB is different event entirely - and its great to see a Government who is prepared to support our sport.

Fact is, manufacturers are looking to sell cars in new markets - new mass markets. Those markets = more profits.

That's what will will determine WRC in the future. It's a fact of life.

[Sprocket]

The plus side to Germany has to be organisation and even the weather though when it rains it really does rain. I was advised to go there as my first event as it was more fan friendly than Wales Rally GB. I don't regret it. So easy, so well organised. Really good memories. That sort of accessibility for people should not be overlooked. If 'chopping' a rally from the Calender, I don't see that dumping one of the rallies held in the countries of the current two major manufacturers could be a win for the WRC! (It might actually spell the total end). I doubt if the many thousands of German fans that attend each year think it is much like France either.

Just adding more rounds if bringing in the new rallies would be fine for me. I would miss all the regulars from the calender and as they are well established and well supported (if not by TV coverage) I see no reason to chop any of them.

[Plan9]

United Arab Emirates and Qatar

Could well make their way onto the WRC calendar in the future.

Plenty of money to buy part of their way in too. However, the cars in the WRC are not so popular in the Middle East. ie DS3 and Fiesta. Ironically these two cars are the ones sponsored by the middle east countries. But we all know it is all about the Middle East drivers wanting to enjoy driving in a works team, they are not interested with these brand of cars in the middle east.

What cars do they like in the middle east? Do they really like rallying? I know Nasser and his friends have great fun with Fiestas, JCWs and DS3s but from my vantage point it only looks like a sport made up of and supported by hardcore enthusiasts. To be fair I am surprised Abhu Dhabi and Qatar have invested so much into the WRC as it is. I would like to see something better than Jordan offered as a middle east round however.

[sollitt]

Fact is, manufacturers are looking to sell cars in new markets - new mass markets. Those markets = more profits.

That's what will will determine WRC in the future. It's a fact of life.It's an argument that's been touted here many times before and shot down each and every time. But I see you're new so we'll go over it again.

There's a reason that the WRC has not been in countries like India & China etc ... The sport is not popular there, there is no expertise in running such an event, nobody would come.
The fact is, there's more marketing profile to be had by excelling in a well established, respected, high profile event with a historic following than in running the event in a country where nobody cares.

What will determine WRC in the future (if they're clever) is the re-establishment of the historically iconic events to their rightful status with some powerful promotion and profiling.
Everyone wants to know who won the Tour de France. Nobody wants to know who won the Tour of Bangalore.

[AndyRAC]

How long before Rallye de France returns to Corsica? Alsace is a good event, but is too close to Deutschland, in stage type and geography. And with Loeb no longer in the WRC, there’s no reason to stay.

We all know about the BRICs, however, is there really a market for Rallying there? I’ve said before – no point going if nobody is interested.
How about trying to ensure the ‘Classics’ remain – and let them stay true to what made them classic events. So Monte, Acropolis, Corsica, Sanremo, Finland are allowed more freedom in their format.

[Mintexmemory]

Two rallies that straddle the French / German border, through virtually the same vineyards, is becoming a bit of a yawn.

Wales Rally GB is different event entirely - and its great to see a Government who is prepared to support our sport.

Fact is, manufacturers are looking to sell cars in new markets - new mass markets. Those markets = more profits.

That's what will will determine WRC in the future. It's a fact of life.

Plus 1 to Sprocket's opinion.

Both France and Germany WRC rounds attract large numbers of spectators and although I've not been to France, I had the same experience in Germany as Sprocket did - going back this year. It's arguable that as both are 'successful' events why can't they be on the same calender, despite grumbling Brits looking through the wrong end of the analytical telescope. Surely, the main argument is should France be allowed 2 WRC rounds since all the competition of the Monte is actually in France. As for returning to Corsica, can't see it happening given the greater accessibility of Alsace.
I agree that before any country hosts a WRC event they should have developed a rallying tradition (fan base) and infrastructure (Officials and competent marshals)
Agree with Andy RAC that the 'classics' be a) on the WRC calendar and b) able to determine their own formats. Sadly, as likely to happen as a Rally GB that encompasses England and Scotland. Note that he doesn't include WRGB as a 'classic'.

[Sprocket]

A switch from Alsace back to Corsica would get a big thumbs up from me and would be a good compromise rather than dropping the French round entirely. I do though think there is a huge cultural difference between ADAC Rallye Deutschland and Rallye de France-Alsace, even if geographically they are close and the stages similar. Both are very successful events with huge local fan support in their own right.

I feel the WRC still has an awful long way to go at reaching new audiences within the current scope, without trying to break into brand new areas. It has to be down to the media coverage or complete lack of it.

It's a hard core fan sport because it is the hard core fans who put up with the rubbish coverage etc. Make the whole atmosphere more accessible to a much wider audience and the excitement of the sport itself will do the rest. Until they sort that out with the current events, I really can't see any success from new markets.

[ShiftingGears]

Indonesia or some tropical rally would be a very unique addition to the calendar once more. I would definitely like the rotation policy to be dropped though. It is bizarre and diminishes the value of the championship, in my opinion.

Some countries in the WRC should return to the classic venues - Rally Australia should be held in Western Australia, and France in Corsica. It is important that the WRC has rallies with very distinctive character, rather than with roads that could be anywhere.

Which reminds me, why didn't the Rally de Portugal return to Estoril/the Sintra stages?

[kober]

There's a quick fix to Alsace and Deutschland taking two spaces in the calendar: run them as one event - a couple of days in France, a couple of days East of the border. If it's doable for Sweden/Norway, why not for France/Germany?

Back to the topic: the future WRC calendar might look similar to WTCC: first half of the season (Winter/Spring) in Europe, and then the cars would be put on a ship and travel around the world for the rest of the year in a cost-effective way. Six rallies in Europe, and six outside of it would be a perfect scenario.

[Sprocket]

There's a quick fix to Alsace and Deutschland taking two spaces in the calendar: run them as one event - a couple of days in France, a couple of days East of the border. If it's doable for Sweden/Norway, why not for France/Germany?


You would need to do Germany to understand why that would not be good I think. It is a very coherent and well organized event as it is. Changing the format could only be bad for it. The way it is currently, it is easy to cover many of the stages, do the service park and round it all off with the Circus Maximus, travelling a further 100 miles into France would really spoil it in my opinion.

[rallyfiend]

There's a quick fix to Alsace and Deutschland taking two spaces in the calendar: run them as one event - a couple of days in France, a couple of days East of the border. If it's doable for Sweden/Norway, why not for France/Germany?

Back to the topic: the future WRC calendar might look similar to WTCC: first half of the season (Winter/Spring) in Europe, and then the cars would be put on a ship and travel around the world for the rest of the year in a cost-effective way. Six rallies in Europe, and six outside of it would be a perfect scenario.

WTCC don't always go on a ship. They can be airfreighted just like WRC cars.

They're expensive assets to have sitting on ships for weeks at a time and unable to be worked on.

Besides, the main cost is flying staff around the work, not necessarily the logistics of sending the cars.

And, just like F1, WTCC has the luxury of turning up to fully functional buildings. WRC doesn't. They have to take everything with them. Which means certain timeframes to allow Service Park equipment to travel from one Long Haul event to the next.

[navtheace]

Just to add to my opinion of United Arab Emirates and Qatar

It would be excellent to see both USA and Canada on the WRC calendar, where they could have the two located close ish to each other in terms of distance. Also have one like 2 or 3 weeks after the other one. So logistically they help keep costs down.

They have a lot to offer to the world of rallying in terms of spectators, business/sponsorship oppurtunities, competitors and are good markets for road car sales also.

I hear good things about rallying in both Canada and the USA. They have a lot of positives to offer the WRC.

[Rallying UK]

Good point about Corsica.

I dont think for one moment though that the "market" for rallying is a determinate factor in choosing where an WRC event is held. Ultimately, its manufacturers that keep WRC on the road and manufacturers will want to go where the markets are for their cars.

India and Russia cannot be discounted. There are simply too many 'European' rounds.

[Sprocket]

Is there much point going where a perceived market exists for the cars if no fans turn up to the events?

The events have to make money to be viable for the local organizers, bills need paying etc.

I can't see manufacturers selling many news cars on half-an-hours TV footage shown at non-peak times, sometimes, maybe or not at all as is the case in the UK either.

It seems to me the selling of cars was left behind when the Japanese manufactures left the championship. It's now about the excitement and linking that to the sponsors branding more than the specific model of car involved? Particularly as show room cars have no relation to the competition cars at all. At least that is how I see it, though just an opinion, I could be miles off the mark.

But take for example Red Bull, do the Air Races sell Edge 540 planes to pilots, or is it really just a branding exercise for Red Bull?

[navtheace]

Very valid point there Sprocket :)

People are not buying road cars based on rallying anymore, as the World Rally Car you see rallying has nothing to do with the road car.

[tommeke_B]

Very valid point there Sprocket :)

People are not buying road cars based on rallying anymore, as the World Rally Car you see rallying has nothing to do with the road car.
Yeah, group B's were very similar to the road cars too...

[stefanvv]

Yeah, group B's were very similar to the road cars too...

:D May be except AUDI.... and may be except S1 E2 :D

[Sprocket]

I don't think rally was about selling specific car models in Group B days, or even before. This is why I'm not sure why there is a big link in this thread to the WRC going to perceived markets for the manufactures products. It is not the model it is the associations, winning rally Russia would not in my mind lead to VW selling boat loads of Polo in Russia.

Lancia Stratos and most group B cars were almost impossible to buy

Quattro, Escort, Mini rally success probably did sell cars

Lancia Integrale, Evo and Impreza - probably rally helped with sales to a select market as the showroom models were at least relatives of competition cars.

As pointed out many rally cars have almost no relation to production models. But I do think at one time association with rally of names like Ford/Lancia/Audi sold cars. These days I feel the emphasis has shifted a lot away from this towards sponsors branding. I guess it would take Citroen to come on here and say, no we sell thousands of DS3 in 2012 because of Loeb's rally success, to show otherwise. Though I think car markets are much more subtle these days than for people to be influenced much by rally success when making a purchase. If Citroen are selling a lot of DS3 it is because the road version ticks the right boxes in the mind of potential customers, not the rally success.

[Gregor-y]

These days I feel the emphasis has shifted a lot away from this towards sponsors branding. I guess it would take Citroen to come on here and say, no we sell thousands of DS3 in 2012 because of Loeb's rally success, to show otherwise. Though I think car markets are much more subtle these days than for people to be influenced much by rally success when making a purchase. If Citroen are selling a lot of DS3 it is because the road version ticks the right boxes in the mind of potential customers, not the rally success.
It doesn't hurt to have a good car and rally success. The Impreza did when I bought my first one, and after owning it for five years when I needed a new car there wasn't much debate for a replacement.

When I was young in the 80s my parents had two Hondas and we'd watch F1 wanting Hondas to win, no matter if they were sponsored by Marlboro, Camel, Canon, or what. Granted it helped that they were winning thanks to Mansel, Prost and Senna, but we'd also want Nakajima to do just as well if possible. I don't root for Abu Dhabi's Department of Tourism or Red Bull (though I suppose I am a fan of Castrol), and I'm still as focused on the maker as the driver, though there are plenty of colorful fellows to watch. I still liked McRae after he moved to Ford but I sure didn't want him to beat Richard Burns.

[Sprocket]

It doesn't hurt to have a good car and rally success. The Impreza did when I bought my first one, and after owning it for five years when I needed a new car there wasn't much debate for a replacement.

When I was young in the 80s my parents had two Hondas and we'd watch F1 wanting Hondas to win, no matter if they were sponsored by Marlboro, Camel, Canon, or what. Granted it helped that they were winning thanks to Mansel, Prost and Senna, but we'd also want Nakajima to do just as well if possible. I don't root for Abu Dhabi's Department of Tourism or Red Bull (though I suppose I am a fan of Castrol), and I'm still as focused on the maker as the driver, though there are plenty of colorful fellows to watch. I still liked McRae after he moved to Ford but I sure didn't want him to beat Richard Burns.

In a way that is what I'm getting at. You have your associations that go way beyond any sponsor branding. I don't follow rally to see the Red Bull logo either! But how does that work in a country with no established rally tradition or associations with the manufacturers involved. To me it doesn't. How is it working with zero media coverage in the UK also. I'm a fan and I'm having to resort to Youtube to follow the WRC this year.

Even in motorsport circles I'm meeting few people who now follow the WRC, so I'm struggling to see how they can be getting to Joe Public in the established regions now and then wondering what is the logic behind taking the WRC into new countries. It seems they can't be influencing the mass market for the cars through the WRC hardly at all in the established regions the way things are. I'm no genius but if this doesn't bother the marketing people I can only assume their agenda lies elsewhere.

As I said above I could be well off the mark, but it just seems it is going this way to me.

[sollitt]

I dont think for one moment though that the "market" for rallying is a determinate factor in choosing where an WRC event is held. Of course it is. And if it's not, it should be!



Ultimately, its manufacturers that keep WRC on the road Only because that's the current thinking. It could just as easily be a very successful privateer competition with manufacturers only involvement being the homologation of suitable vehicles. In fact, it would likely be a better contest if it was.


India and Russia cannot be discounted. There are simply too many 'European' rounds.India certainly could. And the WRC has gotten along just fine without going near Russia. The WRC could survive very well without leaving European shores.


What you are confusing yourself with is the power of 'presence'. There isn't any ... unless the activity has significant following.
If a sport is not strong in any given country, the local media will not go near it. The reality of today is that there is so much money invested
in the popular sports in a region that the media focus their attention where the advertising dollar is.

To use India as an example, they are cricket and hockey mad. The WRC could come and go without causing a ripple. The local media would pay it no
attention whatsoever.
There is so much more benefit for marketeers by focussing their attention and resources in quality events which have a historic worldwide following.

Sprocket is on the money!

[Sprocket]

There is a way to turn this on its head.

I'm just going to concentrate on the Manufacturers Championship as the topic of where rally should be held has been linked with selling cars. I appreciate it has been punctuated in the past if not in recent history by the drivers titles using different machinery.

So what has the WRC been in the eyes of manufacturers?

Take from 1973 to 1991 we have European manufacturers demonstrating their prowess, engineering ability and for a short stage with group B the fact they can be just as bonkers as us fans! Seriously though a very European flavour with Lancia topping the list most regularly, then Fiat, Audi, Peugeot, Ford, Alpine-Renault in the mix.

Things changed in 1993 with Toyota taking the title followed by a further 6 years of Japanese domination. So the period 1993 to 1999 had two effects. The first is it did a lot to sell Japanese performance cars in Europe and parts of the rest of the world. The second, it raised the profile of Rally and particularly the WRC as a sport in Japan. This is how to generate presence in a country.

1999 saw a return to European domination, Citroen then Peugeot dominating the Manufactures titles, with a couple of notable titles for the Ford Focus WRC.


So my point? What is being discussed is how to take the WRC to the BRICs (Brazil, Russia, India, China and lets throw in South Africa too).

Perhaps the question should be how to attract the BRICs manufacturers to the WRC. Try convincing them it is an ideal platform to raise their profile within Europe. That way if it happened and they won titles, the presence in those countries would be formed. The people of those countries would start to follow the WRC, only then does it make sense to take the events to them.

Sadly though I don't think this would be on the agenda, going back to my earlier points regarding the Championship being more a branding exercise these days.

[stefanvv]

I don't think VW for example will be more interested of promotion in Brasil & Russia regarding WRC. In Brasil they have long going presence with a factory there producing Beetles for many years. In Russia I think there is separate motorsport brand which develop cars of other classes than WRC and probably the promotion there will be with these classes. I have no idea for India & China though. Probably for China would be more important races like Silk Road.

[vino_93]

In China there's officiel local Shangai VW-Skoda team running, with Niall McShea, and a VW one. you have too Citroen China and Subaru China involved. Only chinese brand on top is Soueast, which is the same as Proton in the 90's.
And moreover there's european professional drivers : McShea, Sandell, Higgins. And I don't remenber who was there some years ago.

I'm quite sure China is ready for a WRC round. Local dealers are involved, there's more than hundred starters, and for sure local brand want to promote them. Be in WRC could be a good way for them.
But I think India is not really interested in this ... maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't have a lot of success in APRC, and there's no international rally. For sure they have to try to come back in APRC, and after if it works, so yes !

[Ripplin]

the best North American rallies are in Canada namely Rally of the Tall Pines in Ontario and Rally Baie Des Chaleurs in Quebec, perhaps this may seem a bit biased coming from a Canadian, but both of these events are highly regarded and draw teams from all across Canada and America.
Yeah, too bad we hardly get any coverage of them. 22 minutes on TSN, and 60% of that seems to be interviews. I really wish they'd devote an hour to each rally. That would help a bit, at least. 20 seconds of in-car footage followed by 2 minutes of interviews at the service park over and over again isn't a good way to create interest in a sport.

[Eli]

If i was to have a say about the calendar, I would make it 16 rounds like it used to be. Bringing back Cyprus,Norway,Japan,Ireland and Australia back in Perth. I would replace Rally Alsace in Corsica and make Rally Catalunya back as a full Tarmac Rally. So lets say the calendar for 2014 would be: Monte-Carlo
Sweden
Norway
Mexico
Argentina
Greece
Italy
Cyprus
Finland
Germany
New-Zealand
Spain
Corsica
Japan
Australia
Wales GB
and in 2015 put back Ireland instead of Norway.

[Hazza555)]

I think the best way to forward is to have rotating events, as it the easiest way to gain exposure to as many countries as possible. However I think that there should be core events that maintain a yearly place on the calendar. Like Monte, Sweden, Finland, GB, Spain, New Zealand, Corsica etc, i.e the rallies that have a historic presence in the WRC and keep the prestige of the sport alive. I also think that WRC should follow F1 and group events together based on their location. So for instance Mexico and Argentina (and maybe brazil) could be grouped together.

Maybe the calendar could stretch to 18 events but no more.

[trickydicky]

My calendar would be Monte, Sweden, Portugal, Safari, Corsica, Acropolis, Argentina, NZ, 1000 Lakes, Australia, San Remo, Catalunya, RAC, Morocco.

You can call me a traditionalist if you like!

I don't see the argument for Germany. Germany has loads of car manufacturers, I don't need to list them, and Germans, being sensible patriotic people will buy German cars. So, as a marketing episode for Citroen, Pug, Skoda et al, its a waste of time, they will still go and buy an Audi, Merc or BeeEm.

China and Brazil, yeah, loads of people, but, 0 interest in rallys. Therefore, waste of time. If Cutroen, Pug, VW group etc want to sell cars there a cool well made advert would be much more effective.

If I were to 'drop' a rally off my list it would potentially be Australia in favour of Ireland, the Czechs, Belgium or Estonia, i.e, a place where there are a whole lot of rally fans. Surely if you have a sport you want it to be held where people want to watch it, make it easy for yourself!

[Motorsportfun]

My calendar would be as it follows, with 14-dates (like said in the gentleman agreement between Manufacturers and FIA, under NOS-management), and I explain you my thoughs:

1 - Monte Carlo (no reasons to keep them off the calendar)
2 - Sweden (running a leg through Norway, whom big sponsors come from)
3 - Mexico (quite close to the USA, relevant market for VW and Ford)
4 - Portugal (giant budget and great value for WRC stakeholders, an event where you can invite potential sponsors to sign-in)
5 - Brazil (relevant market for VW and good moment to go, as they're investing a lot of money for WC and Olympics)
6 - Argentina (many local sponsors, etc)
7 - Greece (although with Country's problems, they run a nice event with lots of people on the stages. And it's a historical landmark of the sport)
8 - Italy (Emerald Coast is now owned by Ford's premier partner "Qatar" and it's planned a 1bln-investment from them in the region... furthermore in last 2 years the spectators were more and more. Even Colin Clark and Julian Porter noticed that during MotorsTV commentary!)
9 - Finland (no reasons to keep them off the calendar, great event)
10 - Germany (running a leg through Alsace)
11 - Australia (it's the main Country where some sponsors still have an interest)
12 - China (finally ready for a WRC-event)
13 - Spain (no reasons to keep them off the calendar)
14 - Great Britain (moving close to Man-Liv-Midlands will give a big boost, furthermore it's fully backed by Welsh government)

India is definitely not ready to host WRC, neither a motorsport-event. They don't consider motorsport as a "sport", so any event must be privately-funded. At the moment there's no interest from Tata too.

Russia has a very "closed" market, and they're thinking mainly to Lada's involvement in WTCC. If I were the Promoter, I'd wait some years before moving there...

[trickydicky]

My calendar would be as it follows, with 14-dates (like said in the gentleman agreement between Manufacturers and FIA, under NOS-management), and I explain you my thoughs:

1 - Monte Carlo (no reasons to keep them off the calendar)
2 - Sweden (running a leg through Norway, whom big sponsors come from)
3 - Mexico (quite close to the USA, relevant market for VW and Ford)
4 - Portugal (giant budget and great value for WRC stakeholders, an event where you can invite potential sponsors to sign-in)
5 - Brazil (relevant market for VW and good moment to go, as they're investing a lot of money for WC and Olympics)
6 - Argentina (many local sponsors, etc)
7 - Greece (although with Country's problems, they run a nice event with lots of people on the stages. And it's a historical landmark of the sport)
8 - Italy (Emerald Coast is now owned by Ford's premier partner "Qatar" and it's planned a 1bln-investment from them in the region... furthermore in last 2 years the spectators were more and more. Even Colin Clark and Julian Porter noticed that during MotorsTV commentary!)
9 - Finland (no reasons to keep them off the calendar, great event)
10 - Germany (running a leg through Alsace)
11 - Australia (it's the main Country where some sponsors still have an interest)
12 - China (finally ready for a WRC-event)
13 - Spain (no reasons to keep them off the calendar)
14 - Great Britain (moving close to Man-Liv-Midlands will give a big boost, furthermore it's fully backed by Welsh government)

India is definitely not ready to host WRC, neither a motorsport-event. They don't consider motorsport as a "sport", so any event must be privately-funded. At the moment there's no interest from Tata too.

Russia has a very "closed" market, and they're thinking mainly to Lada's involvement in WTCC. If I were the Promoter, I'd wait some years before moving there...

You think there should be an event in Brazil purely because it is a VW market? What about when the big wigs in the VW Group boardroom decide that throwing cash at a sportscar and GT program for both Audi and Porsche, Audi's DTM team and Skoda's rally team is quite enough, especially when interest in the WRC is at an all time low?
And you think having an event on Sardegna purely as a marketing tool for a Qatari owned holiday resort is preferable to having an event in one of rally's classic locations close to a whole shed load of fans? How utterly depressing, which department of the FIA do you work in?

[trickydicky]

Somewhere where I would consider having an event, purely for the hell of it, with no economic consideration given to it at all, is in Central Asia. There are loads of blogs on the web and TV shows about people riding across the region on bikes, or in Trabants, and the scenery is phenomenal. Not only that but there appears to be a limitless supply of rough and ready dirt roads. I am talking about the Kazakhstan/Southern Russia/North West China/Mongolia area. Sure, nobody would be watching because barely anyone lives there, and those that do drive horses, but I reckon it would be a good laugh. If we want to be sensible about it, China, Kazakhstan and Russia have money coming out of their ears and one of them could easily afford the logistics of actually getting there in the first place. Thinking of it, Kazakhstan could be up for it to put them on the map and be known of for something other than Borat! The event could be a long distance raid style Safari equivalent, without the crowds. I suppose it would have to be in summer, breaking down when its -40 could get dangerous!

[Motorsportfun]

You think there should be an event in Brazil purely because it is a VW market? What about when the big wigs in the VW Group boardroom decide that throwing cash at a sportscar and GT program for both Audi and Porsche, Audi's DTM team and Skoda's rally team is quite enough, especially when interest in the WRC is at an all time low?
And you think having an event on Sardegna purely as a marketing tool for a Qatari owned holiday resort is preferable to having an event in one of rally's classic locations close to a whole shed load of fans? How utterly depressing, which department of the FIA do you work in?

Are you on drugs? What Rally's Classic Location are you talking about? Alsace? Proudly traditional since... 2010! Come on, don't be stupid!

I really think you don't have ANY IDEA of what's Brazil now. Anyway, Brazil is one of the most fast-growing markets in the WORLD. It's not coincidence is F1 is trying to keep the race in, although in a old-crappy circuit. Furthermore, X Games has invested quite a lot of money there for not a properly remarkable event, but many sponsors found a wide place to sell their products, so it's "ok". At the moment, Brazil Government put in place the WORLD'S BIGGEST investments for infrastructures: motorways, airports, stadiums, entire downtowns for World Cup and Olympics.

You know, it's not just Volkswagen affair (that has a plant there and want to built from scratch a new one), as LOTS of conglomerates decided to open there their plants:
> Fiat produces his cars in Belo Horizonte
> Hyundai in Sao Paulo
> Renault in Curitiba
> Nissan in Rio de Janeiro
> Also PSA decided to produce there its new 208!

So, don't be stupid and just think at what Brazil has to offer to all WRC stakeholders. Manufacturers, Media, sponsors, local promoters, drivers, etc.

[trickydicky]

Malcolm Wilson of M-Sport made a very interesting point during a Q&A at the Autosport Show recently, about the future shape of the World Rally Championship.

Wilson was asked about the “geographical spread” of WRC events and in his answer, he correctly pointed to emerging countries and the imperative to get WRC into countries such as China, Brazil, Russia in the future.

This makes eminent sense - not just for giving rallying truly global reach to potentially massive audiences but it also makes sense from the manufacturer’s perspective i.e. high-volume car sales in huge new markets.

If WRC is to survive, the fact is it has to ‘escape’ from being a predominantly European-based championship, into a truly global one.

The one certainty is, the manufacturers will be eyeing emerging markets closely. The centre of gravity may be about to shift when it comes to WRC!

I'm not sure if this could be any more wrong. If the WRC left Europe, having say 3 or 4 events there, it would fold in 3 years tops. You have to remember where your competitors are coming from. Seen as most of them are European and money is tight it wouldn't take long for them all to pull out of a 'global' series on financial grounds. Then you'd have just your manufacturers taking part, no more than 4 because no body will pay a fortune to finish in the teens all the time, Toyota and BMW wouldn't fork out to do that in F1, never mind the WRC. Then the '4th' or least successful team would pull out, then another on financial grounds, and another having trouble attracting sponsors to race no one in front of no one, and you'd be left with nothing. All this has happened before in sportscars and touring cars.

If you think about it, you can trace the WRC's decline since when Malcolm Wilson got involved, so I would think his opinions are worthless. He's had his chance, and he made a hash of it.

Having said that maybe a total collapse wouldn't be all bad. People would still race each other across country, for the hell of it, and people would be able to buy cars , and we'd be back to the beginning again!

[trickydicky]

Are you on drugs? What Rally's Classic Location are you talking about? Alsace? Proudly traditional since... 2010! Come on, don't be stupid!

Anyway, Brazil is one of the most fast-growing markets in the WORLD. It's not coincidence is F1 is trying to keep the race in, although in a old-crappy circuit. Furthermore, X Games has invested quite a lot of money there for not a properly remarkable event, but many sponsors found a wide place to sell their products, so it's "ok". At the moment, Brazil has the WORLD'S MOST expensive investments in place from the Government: motorways, airports, stadiums, entire downtowns for World Cup and Olympics. It's not just Volkswagen affair, as ALL conglomerates decided to open plants, etc.

San Remo

[Motorsportfun]

San Remo

Again? San Remo doesn't have roads that fits actual safety requests for WRC. Don't let me write same things since years...
:talk: :talk: :talk:

Anyway, I'm talking about the Country. We have lots of fast and flowing gravel roads in Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna coasts, close to Rimini/Ravenna. No worry about that, we don't have gravel roads just in Sardinia. You know, San Marino Rally in ERC and there's a good "hub" for Rally HQ and maybe a Superspecial: Misano World Circuit... what else?

P.S.: waiting an answer for Brazil...

[trickydicky]

Again? San Remo doesn't have roads that fits actual safety requests for WRC. Don't let me write same things since years...
:talk: :talk: :talk:

Anyway, I'm talking about the Country. We have lots of fast and flowing gravel roads in Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna coasts, close to Rimini/Ravenna. No worry about that, we don't have gravel roads just in Sardinia. You know, San Marino Rally in ERC and there's a good "hub" for Rally HQ and maybe a Superspecial: Misano World Circuit... what else?

P.S.: waiting an answer for Brazil...

To be honest I'm not really sure what you are going on about. By San Remo I mean the rally that used to take part in most of Northern Italy and was based in San Remo. The cruddy little version of the early 00's is not my cup of tea. What I would want would be Tarmac stages around San Remo on day/evening one, Tuscan dirt roads day 2/3 and tar again to finish off. If it was all on gravel, all in Tuscany/Emilia Romagna and called 'The Rally of Italy' that would do me, or if an alternative base was needed, that's fine too. What I meant was it is preferable to have the classic stages, in the classic places with lost of fans, rather than on an island away from the fans to please a few cash happy Qatari princes. Have a look at some old San Remo rally's on Youtube, educate yourself.

None of your points on Brazil interest me in the slightest. So the Brazilian government has loads of cash, maybe they should spend some so that the people who live in their cities have somewhere clean to live, or on tackling their crime problems, rather than on attracting glitzy sporting events to make them look good. I don't see why having a load of new airports and motorways is so great either, unless you want drag race special stages down motorways and runways? Brazilians are not intersted, there would be no-one watching and it would cost a fortune to get to, it all seems pointless to me. If Brazilian companies want to sponsor a team, they can crack on, but they don't deserve a round on the basis of what you have said.

[Motorsportfun]

^^

Let me say you couldn't be employed as a CEO in any important company, IMHO. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

As I told you, Sanremo tarmac roads can't be used anymore. Too much requests from FIA (safety areas, alternative roads, exclusive media access, etc.) to get enough roads available for a WRC loop... :)

[trickydicky]

^^

Let me say you couldn't be employed as a CEO in any important company, IMHO. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

As I told you, Sanremo tarmac roads can't be used anymore. Too much requests from FIA (safety areas, alternative roads, exclusive media access, etc.) to get enough roads available for a WRC loop... :)

That's fine by me, I would never want to be.

Whatever exclusive media access is sounds like something that could be done away with, but for me the best part of the San Remo were the gravel roads anyway, and if Germany is too close to Alsace then San Remo and Monte Carlo aren't a million miles apart either.

[trickydicky]

Coldirodi, Ronde and Colle Langan were all in the IRC San Remo last year, so that makes me think they are perfectly viable for a WRC event, regardless of the FIA's current requirements, and therefore the old San Remo format is still something that could be done.

[Motorsportfun]

That's fine by me, I would never want to be.

Whatever exclusive media access is sounds like something that could be done away with, but for me the best part of the San Remo were the gravel roads anyway, and if Germany is too close to Alsace then San Remo and Monte Carlo aren't a million miles apart either.

ACM would NEVER share the organization of a WRC event. They fund and run alone their event and don't want anyone else with them. That's clear. Also is clear that political status in WRC between ACM and FIA is different than Italian ASN and FIA. Many "ratifications" on the route were approved in Monte, but not in Italy. Different views in Paris... :)

But these are too-much technical arguments that doesn't fit to this forum. Let's continue discuting...

[Motorsportfun]

Coldirodi, Ronde and Colle Langan were all in the IRC San Remo last year, so that makes me think they are perfectly viable for a WRC event, regardless of the FIA's current requirements, and therefore the old San Remo format is still something that could be done.

IRC attracted about 8-times less people than last WRC run in 2003, on the the same roads. Quite different organization approach, isn't it? As I saw many hairpins with lots of spectators in the outer side of its, due to the lack of safer spectators areas. Although rally organizers tried to dissuade fans to come in...

If is not Sardinia, we all have to consider Tuscany or Emilia-Romagna/Marche as alternative areas. San Remo doesn't fix actual WRC standards anymore. So, please resign yourself to that.

[sollitt]

I see that the Tuscan Rewind has had to cancel the stages around Chianti area due to resident issues. Is that an indication that gravel roads are becoming harder to secure on the mainland?

Trickydicky, you're right on the money with your comments regards a WRC round in Brasil. It would make a nonsense to run a round there. Size of car market is irrelevant.

[trickydicky]

I thought of a way of bypassing the problem of how to have a 14 round WRC and please the marketing departments of car manufacturers, Malcolm Wilson, normal rally fans and traditionalists. I decided the best solution would be to have two separate championships; one called the 'Global Marketing Bandwagon' and one called the 'World Rally Championship'. The former would be for whichever car manufacturers wanted to take part with purpose built prototypes based on super-minis, and the latter for private entrants in modified 2wd road cars of any type. I have even thought of calendars for each.

GMB:
1: Norway. A snow rally of around 250km.
2. Mexico. Large growing car market, lots of people, keen government, plenty of sponsors.
3. Brazil. See above and then add some. One stage could be a drag race down one of their new motorways past an airport, so as to showcase the country's steadily improving infrastructure.
4. USA. Could be held at the same time as the Pikes Peak hill climb, one stage up and one back down, short enough to fit in one TV show.
5. Turkey. Massive country, massive population, plenty of folk to sell cars to.
6. Italy. Could be held in Sardinia as an act of good will towards our Qatari friends to encourage them to open their wallets a little further.
7. Qatar. Might as well have one there too. It would all be paid for, obvs.
8. Abu Dhabi/Dubai. I can't tell them apart so either would do.
9. Jordan. The king there seems keen and isn't short of cash.
10. China. Somewhere near Shanghai, on featureless gravel roads in front of no spectators other than government employees paid to go there for the day. Entirely state funded.
11. Indonesia. Massive population of potential car buyers.
12. India. See above.
13. Russia. See above. Apparently has more billionaires than anywhere else, so good sense says we should go, and its not as if they are short of countryside, or forests either. But to save cost we'd keep it to 100km.
14. Wales Rally Wales. Based in Cardiff and held in Margam, Resolfen and Port Talbot forests. 3 stages repeated four times each past strategically placed 'visit Wales' banners. Ceremonial duties undertaken by Tom Jones.

WRC:
1. Monte Carlo. 3 legs. The first one from Aix les Baines to Monte Carlo, the second from Monte Carlo up to Gap, through the Ardeche and bag to Monte Carlo. Leg 3 'la nuit du Turini'.
2. Sweden. Based in Karlstad, held in Varmland forests, hopefully on snow, fairly quick and a sprint event in nature.
3. Portugal. Held on roads in the hills north of Lisbon, including Fafe and Arganil. Last leg at night on tarmac roads around Sintra.
4. Safari. 'Open road' event in Kenya, Mombasa to Nairobi and back, at Easter.
5. Tour de Corse. 24 hour event, starting at lunchtime on Saturday, leg 1 from Ajaccio to Bastia through the mountains, time for a shower and a coffee in Bastia, leg two along the coast between Bastia and Ajaccio.
6. Acropolis. Based in Athens, held over northern and western Greece, very rough stages, very hot, about 1000km long.
7. Argentina. Based in Cordoba, would be close to 1000km in length and have very long stages.
8. New Zealand. Held on sweeping Gravel roads on North Island.
9. 1000 lakes. Sprint event of 400km or so held on fast gravel roads in central Finland. Much as it has always been.
10. Australia. Preferably in Perth with a leg in the Bunnings complex.
11. San Remo. Based in said town. First leg at night on tar in mountains near San Remo. Leg two on gravel in Tuscan area, then back over the passes to San Remo.
12. Catalunya. Would have to have that stage under the flyover, it looks good.
13. 'RAC' Rally. 4 day event in November. Spectator stages on first day. Then 3 days and nights near on non stop through various forests in northern England, Scotland and northern Wales.
14. Morocco. Held on fast, rough gravel and sand roads, over 1000km, car breaker.

I'd bet one would last longer and attract more fans than the other!

[rallyfun]

And you think having an event on Sardegna purely as a marketing tool for a Qatari owned holiday resort is preferable to having an event in one of rally's classic locations close to a whole shed load of fans? How utterly depressing, which department of the FIA do you work in?
What is wrong with Sardegna in your opinion? How many times have you seen a rally in there? And what do you mean by classic location? Compering to other rallies there is everything you can expect from gravel rally, blind crests, water splashes, jumps, hairpins, fast and slow sections, easy to move between stages, no problem with parking etc. For me Sardegna and Corsica are classic locations,as well as Deutschland Rally. I don't care much about Asia as it is very unlikely I will go there to spectate a rally. WRC is purely European series and apart crowds in Argentina there is no much interest anywhere else due to various reasons. For rally fan it is important to have as many rallies in Europe as possible but if you just follow rallies from behind the screen of your computer or TV they can even go to the Moon, it doesn't matter if you are not going to be there. There is no logic in calendar for years, there are no clear rules as for choosing rallies and spectators opinion is the last thing they worry about.

[trickydicky]

What is wrong with Sardegna in your opinion? How many times have you seen a rally in there? And what do you mean by classic location? Compering to other rallies there is everything you can expect from gravel rally, blind crests, water splashes, jumps, hairpins, fast and slow sections, easy to move between stages, no problem with parking etc. For me Sardegna and Corsica are classic locations,as well as Deutschland Rally. I don't care much about Asia as it is very unlikely I will go there to spectate a rally. WRC is purely European series and apart crowds in Argentina there is no much interest anywhere else due to various reasons. For rally fan it is important to have as many rallies in Europe as possible but if you just follow rallies from behind the screen of your computer or TV they can even go to the Moon, it doesn't matter if you are not going to be there. There is no logic in calendar for years, there are no clear rules as for choosing rallies and spectators opinion is the last thing they worry about.

I have nothing against Sardinia/Sardegna at all, it is a beautiful island, it has a wonderful climate and I'm sure very friendly people, and you are right it is a classic rally location, the Costa Smeralda Rally is a long standing European event. I would have no problem with there being a rally in the WRC there if the reasons were those you and I have stated. My issue was that Motorsportfun suggested there should be a round there because Qatari Princes have invested a lot of money there. That is not a good enough reason for me. And as nice as Sardinia is, Tuscany/Emilia Romagna is even nicer!
Everything you say I agree with, the WRC is a European phenomenon and the majority of the rallies should be held there.

[Hazza555)]

Everything you say I agree with, the WRC is a European phenomenon and the majority of the rallies should be held there.

Phenomenon is a bit generous. WRC isn't a "European phenomenon", rallying as a sport is. However I do agree that the WRC should retain it's European foothold, the job of the WRC is promote this "European phenomenon" on an international level. That means showing the world how it is done in your own backyard and then taking it on tour. While I think WRC needs someone like Bernie Ecclestone with the drive to take a sport to new countries, it shouldn't be at the expense of the classic European events that holds the sport's tradition. It annoys me when people say WRC shouldn't go to Brazil because there is no interest in rallying there. WRC should go there and show why it is a great sport. If the manufacturers want an event there because it is a huge market, then do it. Volkswagen's PR machine alone is capable of creating interest. If all is successful then the sport gains more fans, and that is something rallying needs right now. I would imagine when the WRC first went to Argentina in 1980 there was little interest in the sport. Now look at it, it is one of the most successful spectator rallies in the world.

[Plan9]

I think one of the biggest problems is teams do not want to do more than 13 rounds. If they would agree to do more, or be allowed to only compete in a few of the rounds (of whatever the new total number of events per season is) then maybe we could have some of our favourites back (for example Corsica) and add some new events (maybe something from the Middle East Rally Championship).

[trickydicky]

Phenomenon is a bit generous. WRC isn't a "European phenomenon", rallying as a sport is. However I do agree that the WRC should retain it's European foothold, the job of the WRC is promote this "European phenomenon" on an international level. That means showing the world how it is done in your own backyard and then taking it on tour. While I think WRC needs someone like Bernie Ecclestone with the drive to take a sport to new countries, it shouldn't be at the expense of the classic European events that holds the sport's tradition. It annoys me when people say WRC shouldn't go to Brazil because there is no interest in rallying there. WRC should go there and show why it is a great sport. If the manufacturers want an event there because it is a huge market, then do it. Volkswagen's PR machine alone is capable of creating interest. If all is successful then the sport gains more fans, and that is something rallying needs right now. I would imagine when the WRC first went to Argentina in 1980 there was little interest in the sport. Now look at it, it is one of the most successful spectator rallies in the world.

For Bernard Ecclestone read David Richards. He tried, and failed. There is nothing wrong with having a round in Brazil, if it really is that important to some folk, but as you say, not at the expense of a classic European event.

Nice discussion, in according to me one of the biggest problems is team do not want to do more then 11 rounds.If they would agree to do more , or be allowed to only compete in a few of the round then may be , we could have some of favorites back and some new events.

[Eli]

I really hope that they won't decide on anything (too) stupid tommorrow and they won't take out rally New-Zealand and Italy, and what for China???, they should be adding rallies to the calendar not removing. You can put Japan back, alongside Corsica instead of Alsace. Also they should bring back Australia to Perth and put it alongside NZ, yes at the same year like they did up until 2006.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

You have to keep in mind that there is a limit to how many rounds the calendar can handle. We have 13 at the moment because the teams felt that 16 was not feasible. And with less and less entires, expanding the calendar simply isn't possible. Not unless the series could attract another manufacturer - or, preferably, two.

[rallyfiend]

What they need, is events that pay the pay to cover the costs of competitors so extra events are not a burden....

[Prisoner Monkeys]

It's already expensive enough to run a rally as it is, and now you want to saddle the organisers with an extra financial brden?

[Motorsportfun]

And you think having an event on Sardegna purely as a marketing tool for a Qatari owned holiday resort is preferable to having an event in one of rally's classic locations close to a whole shed load of fans? How utterly depressing, which department of the FIA do you work in?

Go home dude and study Sardinia's rally-history and heritage!

These roads have been defined like "rally-university"! Particularly, Tergu-Osilo stage has been much appreciated by Gronholm, Sainz, Loeb, Rovanpera, Schwartz, etc... they all - with their respective teams, during their development runs - learned lots of things they then adopted in WRC events all around the world.

Mainly, Costa Smeralda roads have been, years ago, one of the toughest and challenging gravel roads of the European Rally Championship until 1994, facing fresh and innovative stages year-after-year also to champions like Markku Alen, Didier Auriol, Juha "KKK" Kankkunen and Henri Toivonen.

So, please show some respect to one of the wildest and toughest gravel events in Europe and WRC, yet in 2013.

[wrc1600]

Go home dude and study Sardinia's rally-history and heritage!

These roads have been defined like "rally-university"! Particularly, Tergu-Osilo stage has been much appreciated by Gronholm, Sainz, Loeb, Rovanpera, Schwartz, etc... they all - with their respective teams, during their development runs - learned lots of things they then adopted in WRC events all around the world.

Mainly, Costa Smeralda roads have been, years ago, one of the toughest and challenging gravel roads of the European Rally Championship until 1994, facing fresh and innovative stages year-after-year also to champions like Markku Alen, Didier Auriol, Juha "KKK" Kankkunen and Henri Toivonen.

So, please show some respect to one of the wildest and toughest gravel events in Europe and WRC, yet in 2013.

Agree, best event on gravel in Europe to spectate.

[rallyfiend]

It's already expensive enough to run a rally as it is, and now you want to saddle the organisers with an extra financial brden?

If all these other events want to be part of WRC, why not make them pay to the benefit of the competitors?

It's the way it works in all other forms of world championship motorsport. Hell, it's the way it works in the ERC - except the money goes to Eurosport, rather than the competitors!!

[Prisoner Monkeys]

If all these other events want to be part of WRC, why not make them pay to the benefit of the competitors?
Because you'll be the first one to complain when the likes of Rally GB - which relies on government funding - are removed from the calendar becase they cannot afford the additional costs. It's all well and good to say that the events should pay the competitors if they want to be a part of the championship, but the problem is that most of these events are operating on a tight budget and the astronomical price rise will likely kill many of the events.

[tommeke_B]

@Prisoner Monkeys: Isn't it a shame that events like Mexico have only 25 crews? The logistic costs for European WRC events are not so big compared to the overseas events... All in all, even without the boat trip, those events are still more expensive for the teams as the cost of transport of all crews is multiple times that of a European event. Cars/parts/tools/service park tents etc are away from the workshop for a much longer time, I can imagine that teams have to buy many things which they would normally not need. There was some article, maybe on irally, about recce-cars. Richard Millener (M-Sport) was explaining how it all works. He said they have extra recce cars which are used for the events outside Europe only, they are shipped from Mexico to Argentina, from Argentina to Australia, if I'm not mistaken. I remember that an event like Islas Canarias (ERC) paid for the boat-transport of teams. Maybe it would be a good thing if the organizers from those (far away) events pay for the boat trip, not only for the big teams, but especially for privateers it would make a difference.

[wrc1600]

First of all someone (FIA?) needs to define the rules under which rally calendar is made up. Is it purely money, location, size of the country, teams decision, spectator wishlist or number of spectators on stages? Anything that would give an idea, at the moment I have no clue what and why is going on. I have seen many rallies and I like some more that others but there some that I have no idea why they are in calendar for various reasons. At the same time there are great rallies with huge media and spectators interest that has been once or never in WRC.
Besides that WRC should be more balanced sport-wise with more winter rallies.

[Hazza555)]

Does anyone of any driver opinions on the calendar? After all, their the ones that have to put on "the show". I know Mikko is in favour of endurance type events. (Probably because he is not fast enough to win the modern day form of a rally and hence believes he could keep his car on the road for long enough)

[giedriusr]

All three Baltic countries could be added as one event for WRC :)

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I seem to recall that idea being floated before, with a rally starting in Vilnius and travelling overland to Tallinn (or the other way around).

But I don't think it would work. I'm pretty sure there are rules that dictate that a certain number of stages must be run twice over the course of the rally, and such a rule would be counter-productive to a rally from one city to another.

[Franky]

I seem to recall that idea being floated before, with a rally starting in Vilnius and travelling overland to Tallinn (or the other way around).


In Estonia it wouldn't even go that much into north. Most likely would be in Southern Estonian stages. But yeah, that long endurance rally idea disappeared quite fast.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

The idea was to go from Villa Carlos Paz to Sao Paulo. But then the Brazilians decided that they wanted to have their own rally, and now they're holding a candidate event and lobbying to be on the 2014 calendar.

[tommeke_B]

The idea was to go from Villa Carlos Paz to Sao Paulo. But then the Brazilians decided that they wanted to have their own rally, and now they're holding a candidate event and lobbying to be on the 2014 calendar.

Is there any info about these candidate events both Brazil and China are running?

[Co-driven]

Is there any info about these candidate events both Brazil and China are running?


On Rally Erechim (biggest event in Brazil and also first round of FIA-Codasur Championship) there was a portuguese watching the rally that was being presented as a FIA delegate. But, besides that, there was no info that the event was candidate event.

Here in Brazil, for the last years, there were 3 'fronts' battling to bring a WRC event here. Two of them had ideas of candidate events still this year (both on the second half of the year) but none of them will happen. So, if Brazil really had a candidate event and is willing to be on the 2014 calendar, then Rally Erechim was it.

There is not a lot of information about this around here, things are being made in secret.

[Sulland]

I agree in pricipal, you,can not force rally into a poor country far away from rally tradition and hope it will be a full list of participants, to fill up from the 6 pro-cars from the manufacturers.

the idea is so stupid that it can only be thought out by a pencil pusher in the open and democratic organisation called FIA!
The only place rally,couldmhave a chance to expand is into Canada/USA, where there is still some money. But it has to be done via better Internet/ TV coverage than today.



I thought of a way of bypassing the problem of how to have a 14 round WRC and please the marketing departments of car manufacturers, Malcolm Wilson, normal rally fans and traditionalists. I decided the best solution would be to have two separate championships; one called the 'Global Marketing Bandwagon' and one called the 'World Rally Championship'. The former would be for whichever car manufacturers wanted to take part with purpose built prototypes based on super-minis, and the latter for private entrants in modified 2wd road cars of any type. I have even thought of calendars for each.

GMB:
1: Norway. A snow rally of around 250km.
2. Mexico. Large growing car market, lots of people, keen government, plenty of sponsors.
3. Brazil. See above and then add some. One stage could be a drag race down one of their new motorways past an airport, so as to showcase the country's steadily improving infrastructure.
4. USA. Could be held at the same time as the Pikes Peak hill climb, one stage up and one back down, short enough to fit in one TV show.
5. Turkey. Massive country, massive population, plenty of folk to sell cars to.
6. Italy. Could be held in Sardinia as an act of good will towards our Qatari friends to encourage them to open their wallets a little further.
7. Qatar. Might as well have one there too. It would all be paid for, obvs.
8. Abu Dhabi/Dubai. I can't tell them apart so either would do.
9. Jordan. The king there seems keen and isn't short of cash.
10. China. Somewhere near Shanghai, on featureless gravel roads in front of no spectators other than government employees paid to go there for the day. Entirely state funded.
11. Indonesia. Massive population of potential car buyers.
12. India. See above.
13. Russia. See above. Apparently has more billionaires than anywhere else, so good sense says we should go, and its not as if they are short of countryside, or forests either. But to save cost we'd keep it to 100km.
14. Wales Rally Wales. Based in Cardiff and held in Margam, Resolfen and Port Talbot forests. 3 stages repeated four times each past strategically placed 'visit Wales' banners. Ceremonial duties undertaken by Tom Jones.

WRC:
1. Monte Carlo. 3 legs. The first one from Aix les Baines to Monte Carlo, the second from Monte Carlo up to Gap, through the Ardeche and bag to Monte Carlo. Leg 3 'la nuit du Turini'.
2. Sweden. Based in Karlstad, held in Varmland forests, hopefully on snow, fairly quick and a sprint event in nature.
3. Portugal. Held on roads in the hills north of Lisbon, including Fafe and Arganil. Last leg at night on tarmac roads around Sintra.
4. Safari. 'Open road' event in Kenya, Mombasa to Nairobi and back, at Easter.
5. Tour de Corse. 24 hour event, starting at lunchtime on Saturday, leg 1 from Ajaccio to Bastia through the mountains, time for a shower and a coffee in Bastia, leg two along the coast between Bastia and Ajaccio.
6. Acropolis. Based in Athens, held over northern and western Greece, very rough stages, very hot, about 1000km long.
7. Argentina. Based in Cordoba, would be close to 1000km in length and have very long stages.
8. New Zealand. Held on sweeping Gravel roads on North Island.
9. 1000 lakes. Sprint event of 400km or so held on fast gravel roads in central Finland. Much as it has always been.
10. Australia. Preferably in Perth with a leg in the Bunnings complex.
11. San Remo. Based in said town. First leg at night on tar in mountains near San Remo. Leg two on gravel in Tuscan area, then back over the passes to San Remo.
12. Catalunya. Would have to have that stage under the flyover, it looks good.
13. 'RAC' Rally. 4 day event in November. Spectator stages on first day. Then 3 days and nights near on non stop through various forests in northern England, Scotland and northern Wales.
14. Morocco. Held on fast, rough gravel and sand roads, over 1000km, car breaker.

I'd bet one would last longer and attract more fans than the other!

[Eli]

so in the comming weeks they will present us the callendar let's hope it will be a good one,i can't wait for them to have 16 events again, it makes it so much intersting...

[makinen_fan]

16? Where have you heard that? They are going down to 12 next year.

[Eli]

i haven't heard that, i'm saying that i can't wait until it will be back to 16 events, i know it what happen for the next couple of years, i hope it will return ASAP. you say they are going down to 12 events-not cool, how do they expect to draw more manufacturers to the sport if they won't bring more events. i hope they'll at least bring corsica instead of alsace and keep greece and sardegna in the calendar.

[Eli]

does anyone has any idea what is going to be the WRC calendar for next year???

[rallyfiend]

Due to be announced at the FIA World Motor Sport Council meeting on the 28th June.

[Eli]

too much time to wait...

[NaBUru38]

I would merge some European rallies into four-day events.

o- Monte Carlo
o- Sweden
o- Corsica-Sardinia
o- Alsace-Trier
o- Greece
o- Great Britain
o- Spain or Portugal

Then I'd do more international rallies in major motorsport regions:

o- Mexico
o- Argentina
o- Brazil
o- Japan
o- Australia / New Zealand

[Rallyper]

I would merge some European rallies into four-day events.

o- Monte Carlo
o- Sweden
o- Corsica-Sardinia
o- Alsace-Trier
o- Greece
o- Great Britain
o- Spain or Portugal

Then I'd do more international rallies in major motorsport regions:

o- Mexico
o- Argentina
o- Brazil
o- Japan
o- Australia / New Zealand

NORF???

[vino_93]

44 N4 cars started this week end in first chinese championship round + 3 cars from the S6 regulation (close to N4), and in this category a Fabia S2000 for Niall McShea. + 2 other international drivers : Mark Higgins and Chris Atkinson.
????--2013????.?????????-365???_????????_??>>???|??|???|???|??|???|???|F1|WRC|CRC|MOTOGP|DAKAR LEMANS|NASCAR|COC|CTCC|??www.i365auto.com (http://www.i365auto.com/html/cn/rally/201306/18407.html)

or if you prefer : eWRC-results.com - results Hunan Chenzhou Rally 2013 (http://www.ewrc-results.com/startlist.php?e=10943&t=Hunan-Chenzhou-Rally-2013)

[Motorsportfun]

Rumors talks about Mexico being wrapped-off the 2014 calendar. Greece looks quite safely in.

I try learn more next week in the service park... :)

[Eli]

in 8 days from now we will all know the final calendar for next year...

[Eli]

WRC - WRC calendar delayed by one month - Yahoo! Eurosport UK (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/wrc-wrc-calendar-delayed-one-month-111736074.html) there you have it...as most of you said only 12 rounds next year, so unfair while Formula 1 gets 21 rounds!!!

[Prisoner Monkeys]

The teams are only willing to do 12 rallies.

[Eli]

i know they have financial trouble but it's such a shame we have less rallies than what we had a decade ago.

[rallyfun]

It's bizzare situation, some organizers have financial problems and at the same time there are others with money to spend but they aren't in calenadar. I don't get it. WRC becomes niche sport while F1 or WTCC grow. Is it me or new promoter didn't bring anything?

[rallyfiend]

It's bizzare situation, some organizers have financial problems and at the same time there are others with money to spend but they aren't in calenadar. I don't get it. WRC becomes niche sport while F1 or WTCC grow. Is it me or new promoter didn't bring anything?

I think political reasons within the FIA are the main factors for the WRC calendar. In F1 the promoter has full control over the calendar. That doesn't happen in WRC....

To say WTCC is growing is a bit enthusiastic. They still haven't confirmed one of the slots on their calendar for this year!!!

[NaBUru38]

I would merge some European rallies into four-day events.

o- Monte Carlo
o- Sweden
o- Corsica-Sardinia
o- Alsace-Trier
o- Greece
o- Great Britain
o- Spain or Portugal

Then I'd do more international rallies in major motorsport regions:

o- Mexico
o- Argentina
o- Brazil
o- Japan
o- Australia / New Zealand


NORF???

Wikipedia doesn't have a definition for that, so I didn't understand what you said.

[focus206]

Wikipedia doesn't have a definition for that, so I didn't understand what you said.

NORF = Neste Oil Rally Finland :)

[Motorsportfun]

More detailed rumor, after the first one I shared with you before the rally: Mexico is over IF Brazil comes in. Organisers said cant afford the management and organisation of two separate events with same people.

[Eli]

so for now (and my opinion and from what i understand) it looks like the calendar for next year will be:
Monte-Carlo
Sweden
Mexico/Brazil
Argentina
Portugal
Italy?
China/New Zealand
Poland
Finland
Germany?
France?
Spain
Wales
Again I didn't take it from anywhere but from what i heard and conclude from this forum. If anyone has a better pitch, please share.

[AndyRAC]

There seems to be far too many dry, dusty gravel Rallies - and not enough Tarmac events. Manufacturers are in it to sell more road cars; mostly used on Tarmac roads. Time for a more even split between gravel/ Tarmac. Where is the road relevance of 5,6,7 dry, dusty gravel events? Simple, there isn't.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Where is the road relevance of 5,6,7 dry, dusty gravel events? Simple, there isn't.
It would take an advertising agency all of thirty seconds to point out that if a car can win on the roughest and toughest gravel rallies, then its potential on smoother and silkier tarmac must be unrivalled.

[A FONDO]

There seems to be far too many dry, dusty gravel Rallies - and not enough Tarmac events. Manufacturers are in it to sell more road cars; mostly used on Tarmac roads. Time for a more even split between gravel/ Tarmac. Where is the road relevance of 5,6,7 dry, dusty gravel events? Simple, there isn't.

At least half the rallies must be on tarmac IMO. And yes, it is silly to have 4,33 events in practically identical dusty pits when we have only 1 on snow and one on typical mud.

[Eli]

if the situation wasn't so bad maybe they could have add rallies instead of downsizing. I would do this calendar:
Monte-Carlo
Sweden
Norway
Mexico
Portugal
Argentina
Italy
Greece
Finland
Germany
New-Zealand/Australia(Western Australia A.K.A. Perth)
Spain
Corsica
Japan
Ireland
Wales GB

[Motorsportfun]

so for now (and my opinion and from what i understand) it looks like the calendar for next year will be:
Monte-Carlo
Sweden
Mexico/Brazil
Argentina
Portugal
Italy?
China/New Zealand
Poland
Finland
Germany?
France?
Spain
Wales
Again I didn't take it from anywhere but from what i heard and conclude from this forum. If anyone has a better pitch, please share.

Manufacturers clearly said they are NOT happy to go to the actual Chinese candidate event, which is - in their opinion - too far away from biggest cities, namely Beijing and Shanghai.

France/Alsace will stay in WRC until they got money, but in the past there was some rumors from Mouton/Todt, thinking to merge the event with Germany and doing something like Sweden did with Norway.

Should be good, but there's quite a lot politics and is not easy at the moment. We'll see...

[Eli]

so at the end of this month we will know the calendar for next year?, i wonder when the calendar will be full of rallies as it used to be between 2004-2007 (and even 2008).

[tommeke_B]

Manufacturers clearly said they are NOT happy to go to the actual Chinese candidate event, which is - in their opinion - too far away from biggest cities, namely Beijing and Shanghai.

France/Alsace will stay in WRC until they got money, but in the past there was some rumors from Mouton/Todt, thinking to merge the event with Germany and doing something like Sweden did with Norway.

Should be good, but there's quite a lot politics and is not easy at the moment. We'll see...For me there should be only one event/country, in both WRC and ERC. There are already only few places. France already has Monte Carlo, so... Same applies/applied to Italy and Portugal in ERC by the way.

[BleAivano]

For me there should be only one event/country, in both WRC and ERC. There are already only few places. France already has Monte Carlo, so... Same applies/applied to Italy and Portugal in ERC by the way.

Last time I checked Monte Carlo was in Monaco. ;)

[Franky]

Last time I checked Monte Carlo was in Monaco. ;)

But the stages are in France.

[Luis Pacheco]

just like Mikkelsen's car mysteriously happened to carry regular Skoda colours instead of Union Jack painting in Circuit of Ireland driven in Northern Ireland... Carry the a Union Jack on the streets of Belfast is asking for troubles.

[EightGear]

All the talk about Brazil and China, but no, we will probably just get another European round....

Poland leads race as World Rally Championship plans new 2014 event - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108708)

[MartijnS]

Poland looked great the last time, so I would be happy :)

[Juha_Koo]

Poland looked great the last time, so I would be happy :)

Yeah, I still remember Poland '09 as a great event. Fast flowing stages, some massive jumps and overall the rally had a nice character. I can still remember one camera spot from Day 1 (?), shot from outside the corner, a long right hander over double crest, Mikko was pushing the maximum. :)

I would really want to visit the rally if it comes back to WRC...

[Eli]

but they are still downsizing on events as only 12 will be next year, i can't belive they will drop sardegna for poland!!!

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Sardegna isn't that great. It might be the Rally of Italy, but it pales in comparison to San Remo and the island itself is pretty isolated.

[amilk]

Sardegna isn't that great. It might be the Rally of Italy, but it pales in comparison to San Remo and the island itself is pretty isolated.

What makes a rally great? In case the spectator numbers then yes it's not crowded like some others....but then I dont believe Brazil and China will be great rally. WRC promoter's role is key, without a good job there WRC will not shine better whatever the calendar will be.

[Mintexmemory]

Sardegna isn't that great. It might be the Rally of Italy, but it pales in comparison to San Remo and the island itself is pretty isolated.

Actually, given that the old San Remo is never likely (like the old Rally GB / RAC) to come back, Sardegna is much more preferable to a rally where stupid numbers of people will be trying to access the limited points around the stage loops. San Remo is a fine ERC event, any bigger and it would collapse in the same way the Turini night loop did on this year's Monte.
Anyone that has actually been to Sardegna would tell you it's a wonderful event, on testing stages, with breathtaking scenery. If you had been you wouldn't have made such a wide of the mark opening assertion. :)

[Motorsportfun]

Sardegna isn't that great. It might be the Rally of Italy, but it pales in comparison to San Remo and the island itself is pretty isolated.

Bulls**t.

Ogier during Post-Event Press Conf:
"It would be a shame, the first edition was not very successful as there were not many spectators and what we need in rallying are the public. But it looked like it is getting better and this year the stages were getting better as well. We had a lot of fun in the stages so I would like to come back here, but I am not the one to decide".



JML agrees: "I agree with Ogier. We saw more spectators than before and very nice ceremonies".

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/q71/s720x720/1017296_613477982004535_287396718_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/q71/s720x720/1014349_438622479569675_942246026_n.jpg

[wrc1600]

Sardegna isn't that great. It might be the Rally of Italy, but it pales in comparison to San Remo and the island itself is pretty isolated.

How many times have you been there? And what have you not like about this rally?

[tommeke_B]

Last time I checked Monte Carlo was in Monaco. ;)

They had the service park there yes, for one day... :)

[Eli]

anyways, next year's calendar might be the bridge calendar for years to come, let's hope it will be better after 2014...and bigger if possible

[BleAivano]

They should add Midnattssolsrallyt. ;)

[Prisoner Monkeys]

JML agrees: "I agree with Ogier. We saw more spectators than before and very nice ceremonies".
Right, because large numbers of spectators and elaborate podium ceremonies are the two things that really define a rally's value.

[Motorsportfun]

Right, because large numbers of spectators and elaborate podium ceremonies are the two things that really define a rally's value.

Stages are now fast and flowing, logistic has been optimised year-by-year, safety measures have been improved MORE than what needed by FIA (the more the merrier) and co-drivers association, spectators areas are improving year-by-year to give fans better experiences and more services (close parking areas, exclusive access, etc.), ceremonies are more elaborated and spectacular.

It's exactly what Manufacturers wants. When I told some WRC team members that this one could be Sardinia's last appareance in WRC, they were all surprised, because in WRC there are much worse events.

If spectators are coming more and more every year, probably something good has been done in the island. Wasn't it?

[Eli]

if the FIA are really going for poland next year, i really wouldn't change the calendar next year a part from taking Alsace out. After all loeb isn't competing next year, and germany is very similar event and they won't take it out since VW are in the wrc.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Stages are now fast and flowing, logistic has been optimised year-by-year, safety measures have been improved MORE than what needed by FIA (the more the merrier) and co-drivers association, spectators areas are improving year-by-year to give fans better experiences and more services (close parking areas, exclusive access, etc.), ceremonies are more elaborated and spectacular.

It's exactly what Manufacturers wants. When I told some WRC team members that this one could be Sardinia's last appareance in WRC, they were all surprised, because in WRC there are much worse events.

If spectators are coming more and more every year, probably something good has been done in the island. Wasn't it?
Next time, I suggest you make that your opening argument. There's a big difference between "it's exactly what the manufacturers want" and "it's nice to see more people out there on the stages and the organisers spared no expense on the opening and closing ceremonies".


if the FIA are really going for poland next year, i really wouldn't change the calendar next year a part from taking Alsace out. After all loeb isn't competing next year, and germany is very similar event and they won't take it out since VW are in the wrc.
Well, common sense dictates that this is the best way forward, but common sense is remarkably uncommon. The French are apparently still willing to pay handsomely for their event, which is why Sardegna and the Acropolis are te two rallies said to be facing the headsman's axe.

[Eli]

when will next year's calendar will be published?

[Motorsportfun]

Well, common sense dictates that this is the best way forward, but common sense is remarkably uncommon. The French are apparently still willing to pay handsomely for their event, which is why Sardegna and the Acropolis are te two rallies said to be facing the headsman's axe.

You talking about money? Do you know we have just sold Emerald Coast? It's just one of biggest Qatar Holding (QIA-controlled company, Qatar Investment Authority) properties - and is near Olbia! They're planning/building a monster real-estate development...

You know, "probably" they're interested to fill their hotels not only in July-August and "probably" a 1-week event like WRC is not bad for them...

P.S.: "your" Wales is in our SAME situation...

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by "my" Wales?

[andyone]

my suggestion is Safari Rally Kenya. i would like to have that again back..pretty good challenge for the drivers and machines

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I don't think the Safari Rally would work unless it was restructured to fit the current format. Looking at some maps of the country, there's some good stuff around Kisumu on the shores of Lake Victoria.

[Eli]

I'm afraid that at least for the next couple of years the WRC's calendar won't be to our liking.

[Rally Hokkaido]

In answer, to the question posed by this thread, regrettably I have to suggeest New Zealand (to the 2016 WRC Calendar!) because it looks likely that rally will be on the sidelines until at least then. Too bad!

Rally Australia remains positive on three-year WRC bid - Speedcafe (http://www.speedcafe.com/2013/07/16/rally-australia-remains-positive-on-three-year-wrc-bid/)

The upside is that the Australian round this year at last looks like it will bring back more of the 'magic' absent since the event moved from Perth.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Pffff I rate rally NZ higher then the current Coffs Harbour... Maybe because its a classic

[tommeke_B]

Also wondering what the "magic" is what 'Rally Hokkaido' is talking about. 6x the same show-stage isn't the way to do it... Also I will never get used to the idea that you are allowed to see only one or 2 places a stage... Part of the "magic" in rallying for me, is finding your own place, and discover something special...

[Eli]

speaking of hokkaido where's rally japan gone??? we haven't seen it in the calendar since septmeber 2010, shame.