Ford ends M-Sport run in WRC?

[Bobcat]

Ford evaluating WTCC comeback - WTCC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92531)

Is it possible that Ford could/will end the failed M-Sport run in the FIA World Rally Championship?

Hopefully that Citroen will beat Ford also in Finland. Maybe then someone in Ford will finally realize that something needs to be done/changed.

Presently, going to become another Subaru.

[Barreis]

That's normal in sport. M-sport wants money more then results.

[Allar]

I dont see it happend in next 4 years. Ford will be there, behind Citroen.

[focus206]

Hmmm... if Ford ends M-Sport run in WRC, they can give the Fiestas to someone else (hopefully more professional than M-Sport) or they will left WRC?

[driveace]

A private team as M Sport is ,cannot compete with a full works team as Citroen is.Remember the old "works" teams Ford ,Lancia,Audi,Fiat,BMC,all connected directly with the factory.M Sport is there to make a profit for the owners ,winning i believe is secondary to that.

[Barreis]

Prodrive made driver champs as a private company.

[AndyRAC]

Very harsh if true.
I remember when Malcolm and M-Sport got the contract back in November 1996. I remember somebody saying that the MWMotorsport Escort RS Cosworths were just as good, if not better than the 'Works' cars.
I'm sure they have made mistakes, however, if Ford gave them a proper budget, they would do a lot better. As it is, they run all these other customer programmes to generate income to run their WRC effort. Ford are the ones to blame, in my view.
Going to the WTCC is hardly a great sign of Ford's judgement - that's a dead duck series....at least the WRC is on the way up - if slowly!

[N.O.T]

No other company managed to fail so many times in so long.... I would like to see Ford in the WRC but as a full manufacturer with full support and getting managed by people that care about the company of Ford Motors rather than their own personal little shop and their promoting of their 20 year plan useless little sick dogs.

[Barreis]

The only good thing would be to put Hirvonen and Latvala where they deserve - at home. They'll never be champs.

[Allar]

Sometimes M-sport have been better than all the works team's, but it just have not worked out for them. 2003 they had fastest car, but then they had reliable problems, but later they had great Loeb aginst them and this have destroyed M-sport image in my eyes.

[Barreis]

They had Gronholm and he made them manufacturer champs twice. He was the last great driver there.

[OldF]

As far as I remember, M-Sport has a contract with Ford for the next year and both Mikko and JML has also a contract for next year.

JML has said that he don’t think there are any big differences in the performance between Ford and Citroen. Too much technical problems this year, at least for JML.

If Ford leaves WRC by the end of 2012 what will happen to WRC. In 2013 the second year for Mini and the first year for VW.

[Bobcat]

Hmmm... if Ford ends M-Sport run in WRC, they can give the Fiestas to someone else (hopefully more professional than M-Sport) or they will left WRC?

I really know that a new in-house "Ford Boreham" base could have done the same job for far less money. Ford's Boreham base (Essex) also helped to developed many production Ford RS cars.

[MJW]

Hmm, maybe there is something in this. Gerard Quinn says that Rally GB needs to move to north of England, and went as far as to say if there is an extension of the deal to keep the rally in Wales then that could be enough to make Ford quit WRC. My first reaction was this guy is looking for an exit strategy. If for one minute Ford bases the decision on whether to continue with their premier global motorsport effort on getting the home round a few hundred kms nearer to their factory, when there are events in Australia, NZ, Argentina etc, this sounds pathetic. For the last few years Quinn he has been able to tell his bosses that the Focus wasnt as good as the C4, but now even the Fiesta is way behind. Once VW come in the big competition will be Citroen and VW, maybe if Mini beats the Ford that will be it. My guess is Ford wont be in WRC in 2013. Some current Fiesta drivers are toying with rallycross even now, and are making noises against longer rallies.

[Barreis]

Don't know how much they pay (ford to m-sport) but know that hyundai paid 250 000 US$/car entered on WRC event and that means half a million US$ per WRC rally (privateers excluded from their paying) to MSD per rally. That means 7 million US$/season. Also drivers were very good paid.

[tfp]

Is there any reason that they cant do both? Like use the 1.6t engine from fiesta wrc in a touring car? Thats if touring cars are going to use a 1.6t engine, such is my limited knowledge on BTCC:-)

[wildsir]

Hmm, maybe there is something in this. Gerard Quinn says that Rally GB needs to move to north of England, and went as far as to say if there is an extension of the deal to keep the rally in Wales then that could be enough to make Ford quit WRC. My first reaction was this guy is looking for an exit strategy. If for one minute Ford bases the decision on whether to continue with their premier global motorsport effort on getting the home round a few hundred kms nearer to their factory, when there are events in Australia, NZ, Argentina etc, this sounds pathetic. For the last few years Quinn he has been able to tell his bosses that the Focus wasnt as good as the C4, but now even the Fiesta is way behind. Once VW come in the big competition will be Citroen and VW, maybe if Mini beats the Ford that will be it. My guess is Ford wont be in WRC in 2013. Some current Fiesta drivers are toying with rallycross even now, and are making noises against longer rallies.

Quinn will likely not be about long enough to make that decisions, like his predecessors. MSport control the Ford involvement in WRC. Ford lost control when while threating to leave because of financial melt down, MW keep the whole operation going with Abu dhabi, BP castrol money, but gained maybe even more control by doing so. I would say the extent fords involvement is a couple of million euros, and the rest in hospitality and marketing. Value for money.. maybe.. But only until you want to start winning.

[Allar]

Dont forget guys that Tänak and Prokop(?) have 5 year deal with M-sport. What they will drive in future then? M-sport and Ford stays, atleast for now.

[MJW]

Dont forget guys that Tänak and Prokop(?) have 5 year deal with M-sport. What they will drive in future then? M-sport and Ford stays, atleast for now.
Is that the same 5 year deal Petter had or the 5 year deal Mathew had? Malcolm seems fond of 5 year terms.

[AndyRAC]

Is that the same 5 year deal Petter had or the 5 year deal Mathew had? Malcolm seems fond of 5 year terms.

Except none of them lasted 5 years - Petter left after a year, Matthew is in his 6-7th year of his 5 year plan.............. :D

[GigiGalliNo1]

Again, it's like SAAB entering! Hah

[Jake Stephens]

I can't see how Ford can stay involved, the team is stagnant, anyone with any bit of interest in WRC can see that.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Yes but it's better the have a team that is suffering then one team in the championship... though it's like that already. Gah!

[Motorsportfun]

On the Italian website Italiaracing.net the move was explained a week ago from Brno (WTCC weekend). Ford of Europe, which pays for WRC programme, is not involved in it and the opportunity to enter the WTCC has been evaluated by Ford America, with the rest of the budget from Arena's main sponsor AON.

So we can expect a two-ways promotion for Ford:

Ford America: WTCC
Ford Europe: WRC

[AndyRAC]

Is it possible that Ford America will put more £$£$ into WTCC, than Ford of Europe do into WRC/M-Sport??

[nzabevAMSM]

Ford needs to be in WTCC because of Chevrolet (Cruze), and also to sell cars to customer teams which will be only + to seling Fiestas in WRC/IRC

[Motorsportfun]

Is it possible that Ford America will put more £$£$ into WTCC, than Ford of Europe do into WRC/M-Sport??

Hasn't been revealed, but I heard that Ford of Europe gives to the WRC programme about 5-10 millions euros, the rest comes from Abu Dhabi, BP and M-Sport's customer programmes and sells. Anyone (except at Ford and M-Sport) knows the exact amount...

[Bobcat]

On the Italian website Italiaracing.net the move was explained a week ago from Brno (WTCC weekend). Ford of Europe, which pays for WRC programme, is not involved in it and the opportunity to enter the WTCC has been evaluated by Ford America, with the rest of the budget from Arena's main sponsor AON.

So we can expect a two-ways promotion for Ford:

Ford America: WTCC
Ford Europe: WRC
I don't think these are exact/true facts that: "...Ford of Europe, which pays for WRC programme, is not involved in it and the opportunity to enter the WTCC has been evaluated by Ford America".
In fact, the new Focus, Fiesta are global cars by the ONE Ford. The new WTCC plan and all global programs (include the WRC plan) are evaluated by Ford's new global performance and motorsport division/head (director Jost Capito).

BIOGRAPHY: JOST CAPITO | Ford Motor Company Newsroom (http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10367)
"...Capito is responsible for the global motorsports strategy and aligning Ford’s global motorsports plans and programs. He leads development of motorsport opportunities for Ford’s future global car products around the world, working closely with the company’s regional motorsports directors." (Gerard Quinn, Jamie Allison etc.)

Secondly, the Ford's European motorsport division with Gerard Quinn supports the UK Arena Motorsport like M-Sport... FORD'S UK TECH CENTRE HELPS NEW FORD FOCUS GLOBAL TOURING CAR PREPARE FOR ACTION | Ford Motor Company Newsroom (http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=34313)

[Barreis]

Maybe they'll now change current line-up.

[Motorsportfun]

I don't think these are exact/true facts that: "...Ford of Europe, which pays for WRC programme, is not involved in it and the opportunity to enter the WTCC has been evaluated by Ford America".
In fact, the new Focus, Fiesta are global cars by the ONE Ford. The new WTCC plan and all global programs (include the WRC plan) are evaluated by Ford's new global performance and motorsport division/head (director Jost Capito).

BIOGRAPHY: JOST CAPITO | Ford Motor Company Newsroom (http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10367)
"...Capito is responsible for the global motorsports strategy and aligning Ford’s global motorsports plans and programs. He leads development of motorsport opportunities for Ford’s future global car products around the world, working closely with the company’s regional motorsports directors." (Gerard Quinn, Jamie Allison etc.)

Secondly, the Ford's European motorsport division with Gerard Quinn supports the UK Arena Motorsport like M-Sport... FORD'S UK TECH CENTRE HELPS NEW FORD FOCUS GLOBAL TOURING CAR PREPARE FOR ACTION | Ford Motor Company Newsroom (http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=34313)

Common strategies, different budgets. It's not the first time it happens in motorsport...

[sal]

The new Focus is truly a global car with the same model being sold in the USA as the rest of the world. It makes sense that if the company wants to go Touring car racing as well as rallying and has the budget to do so then it uses a car that US buyers can relate to especially as they will be up against Chevrolet in that series.

[Wasted Talent]

Ford evaluating WTCC comeback - WTCC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92531)

Is it possible that Ford could/will end the failed M-Sport run in the FIA World Rally Championship?

Hopefully that Citroen will beat Ford also in Finland. Maybe then someone in Ford will finally realize that something needs to be done/changed.

Presently, going to become another Subaru.

Great - so you want another WRC team less......

WT

[Rallyper]

And then go to the street and pick anyone taking over. Man - competent people is not common and I look at MW as competent to manage a Ford WRT. Or do you have any names that can make Ford winning with this level of investments?

[Bobcat]

Common strategies, different budgets. It's not the first time it happens in motorsport...
Maybe but the Ford's North America motorsport division with Jamie Allison already has NASCAR, NHRA and the Global RallyCross Championship etc. Personally, I don't think there are now different budgets about key components of the One Ford plan.

[BDunnell]

A private team as M Sport is ,cannot compete with a full works team as Citroen is.Remember the old "works" teams Ford ,Lancia,Audi,Fiat,BMC,all connected directly with the factory.M Sport is there to make a profit for the owners ,winning i believe is secondary to that.

Conversely, when the Super Touring era of the British Touring Car Championship was at its height, the Peugeot team was for a long time the only one actually run out of the factory — and it never won a race. (It still didn't win one when the effort was handed to an independent preparation outfit, but you see my point.)

[BDunnell]

Going to the WTCC is hardly a great sign of Ford's judgement - that's a dead duck series....at least the WRC is on the way up - if slowly!

And apparently doing so on the back of a BTCC programme with a car that is currently being roundly trounced by an independent team running last year's Fords.

EDIT — Incidentally, I don't see why a Ford WTCC entry should surprise anyone. The new BTCC car is known as the 'Global' Focus, after all.

[nafpaktos]

Some people here support that ford cannot be a winner-team because it's a <private> team.I dont think this is true.We have seen a <private>teams in the past winning the championship(ralliart,prodrive ,you can also see red bull win ferrari in f1).The problem i think is wilson's management.The year 2007 he lost the drivers championship because he didint gave orders to miko to slow down.The same thing happen later when he didint gave orders to jari.He is a person that he learns nothing from his mistakes.I believe that he should do some fundamental changes in the team.
1st He must make clear who is #1 driver in the team.
2nd He must bring to the team a top driver(this monent the only available is peter).Unforunately he didnt do it the past years,why he should do it know?He must forget what happen in the past.When you are a boss you must look the profit of your team and leave the selfish behaviour.

[Alfa Fan]

And apparently doing so on the back of a BTCC programme with a car that is currently being roundly trounced by an independent team running last year's Fords.

EDIT — Incidentally, I don't see why a Ford WTCC entry should surprise anyone. The new BTCC car is known as the 'Global' Focus, after all.

Don't worry. The Ford program in WTCC will NOT happen. Or at least not in a way that they will be competitive. They claim to be building a WTCC car for November, what exactly does that mean? Is that not the current "Global" Focus racing in the BTCC fitted with an evolution of the S2000 engine they use in rallying?

[Bobcat]

Is that not the current "Global" Focus racing in the BTCC fitted with an evolution of the S2000 engine they use in rallying?
Arena's BTCC cars have a 2.0 turbo developed by Mountune Racing.

[makinen_fan]

Malcolm Wilson did a big mistake last year not to sign Seb Ogier when he was still available. Both Mikko and JML lack the consistency and they are not so super fast as Ogier and Loeb. What is missing from M-Sport is a top driver and not the money.

[focus206]

Malcolm Wilson did a big mistake last year not to sign Seb Ogier when he was still available. Both Mikko and JML lack the consistency and they are not so super fast as Ogier and Loeb. What is missing from M-Sport is a top driver and not the money.
Well, from what I know, Malcolm tried to contact Ogier, but he refused...

[Barreis]

They don't want to give the right salary. Their drivers were paying drivers. This is amateur sport for them.

[AndyRAC]

Hasn't been revealed, but I heard that Ford of Europe gives to the WRC programme about 5-10 millions euros, the rest comes from Abu Dhabi, BP and M-Sport's customer programmes and sells. Anyone (except at Ford and M-Sport) knows the exact amount...

Basically, they're trying to fund a World Motorsport on peanuts......Well, they get what they deserve, if that figure is anything like correct.

[koko0703]

I don't know if WTCC gives the exposure Ford is looking for. I think if they are really into circuit racing, they already have it with NASCAR although NASCAR is not the international series. I consider WRC is far better promotional tool than WTCC right now.

[Barreis]

Without results it's all nothing.

[Motorsportfun]

Basically, they're trying to fund a World Motorsport on peanuts......Well, they get what they deserve, if that figure is anything like correct.

Ford continues because put a small budget (as Manufacturer)... you know, the rest is paid by the private sponsors! They get a good exposure across the world and - mainly - an excellent value-for-money...

5-10 millions for it... is a good deal! Although if I was at Ford of Europe, I'll get at least twice or 3 times more to have proper developements, etc!

[AndyRAC]

Ford continues because put a small budget (as Manufacturer)... you know, the rest is paid by the private sponsors! They get a good exposure across the world and - mainly - an excellent value-for-money...

5-10 millions for it... is a good deal! Although if I was at Ford of Europe, I'll get at least twice or 3 times more to have proper developements, etc!

But is it good exposure?? Getting beat in nearly every Rally - Is it really value for money???

[Barreis]

M-sport's logo: no driver's chamionship in 15 years.

[tfp]

M-sport's logo: no driver's chamionship in 15 years.

Someone at ford has really upset you lol ;)

[Barreis]

No, it's reality.

[Tomi]

But is it good exposure?? Getting beat in nearly every Rally - Is it really value for money???

it has been almost the same for many years already, if it would not be worth it, they would have been gone long time ago already.

[Motorsportfun]

But is it good exposure?? Getting beat in nearly every Rally - Is it really value for money???

Malcolm Wilson is just a good businessman, he's been able to keep a Manufacturer with what? 2-3 manufacturer titles?

[Bobcat]

They get a good exposure across the world and - mainly - an excellent value-for-money...

5-10 millions for it... is a good deal!
it has been almost the same for many years already, if it would not be worth it, they would have been gone long time ago already.
I read that: "...in the 2002 season, the "good" deal with M-Sport apparently had a basic pakage of £40,000,000 with other marketing rights on top of that. Each car costs around £350,000+ paid for by Ford. Once used it becomes the property of M-Sport who can then hire it out with support package for upwards of £100,000 a time which is all their money. Allegedly Ford ran it in house with at least as much success for around £7,000,000 to £9,000,000. Boreham was always run on a shoe string and yet achieved remarkable results. And remember it's not a dozen cars but over 110 at between £350-500,000 each (so far at least 11 Fiesta RS WRC cars have been built). Ford are apparently desperate to ditch M-Sport but are having the threat of legal action held over them. The contracts, that date back to Martin Whitakers days, are ambiguous to say the least and proving a huge headache for a company that could do without spending millions on a car that is already a sales success and hardly needs promoting and is about to become redundant. It is therefore no easier to walk away from M-Sport than Boreham."

[Maui J.]

If Ford did pull out, I'm sure M-Sport wouldn't stop. It would still make money from it's existing customers, plus I'm positive MW would be on the hunt for another manufacturer. Just as Prodrive is back with the Mini, M-Sport would also make a return.

[AndyRAC]

If Ford did pull out, I'm sure M-Sport wouldn't stop. It would still make money from it's existing customers, plus I'm positive MW would be on the hunt for another manufacturer. Just as Prodrive is back with the Mini, M-Sport would also make a return.

I'd be pretty sure M-Sport would continue. However, there is a difference with Prodrive; Prodrive had years of running other Manufacturers and other Motorsport categories.

[Zeakiwi]

I read that: "...in the 2002 season, the "good" deal with M-Sport apparently had a basic pakage of £40,000,000 with other marketing rights on top of that. Each car costs around £350,000+ paid for by Ford. Once used it becomes the property of M-Sport who can then hire it out with support package for upwards of £100,000 a time which is all their money. Allegedly Ford ran it in house with at least as much success for around £7,000,000 to £9,000,000. Boreham was always run on a shoe string and yet achieved remarkable results. And remember it's not a dozen cars but over 110 at between £350-500,000 each (so far at least 11 Fiesta RS WRC cars have been built). Ford are apparently desperate to ditch M-Sport but are having the threat of legal action held over them. The contracts, that date back to Martin Whitakers days, are ambiguous to say the least and proving a huge headache for a company that could do without spending millions on a car that is already a sales success and hardly needs promoting and is about to become redundant. It is therefore no easier to walk away from M-Sport than Boreham."

Did Ford skimp on legal contract writers too ?

[GigiGalliNo1]

As much as Ford will "leave" the WRC it's like SAAB "entering" the WRC..... Ugh

[Bobcat]

Did Ford skimp on legal contract writers too ?

Maybe but I think it's unlikely. These things are more difficult to understand. However, I think corrupt practices are more likely than other failures.

[Daniel]

I may not be a fan of Malcolm, but I think for whatever Ford are paying (surely not much), M-Sport have probably done well. I feel that with better leadership and spending money on the right things and focusing efforts better (no sonny boy in a WRCar for 5 years too long!!!) they could have done better. I think Ford would be silly NOT to keep M-Sport doing what they're doing as I'm sure their return on whatever investment they make in M-Sport is probably quite high. Again I don't like Malcolm and I feel that he'll always be the bridesmaid, but I suspect he's done well with what i would imagine is a pretty small budget.....

Perhaps if Ford do quit the WRC, then they can funnel the money towards getting an Italian design house to style their cars as their current cars are pretty ugly. Kinetic my buttocks....

[Daniel]

But is it good exposure?? Getting beat in nearly every Rally - Is it really value for money???

Whilst I kind of agree, I think that just being second got them a lot of exposure previously and probably cost Ford peanuts.

How many Focii do you think the WRC effort sold? Heck the whole ST and RS range are sold off the back of Ford's "successes" in modern rallying. How many Focii do you think a WTCC effort will sell in Europe?

[Barreis]

Yeah, that's why he (Malcolm) has castle. :D

[BDunnell]

I must say, this discussion brings to mind the thought that Ford's record in all forms of motorsport has actually been less than sparkling for many years now. It is incredible to think that it's now 30 years since a Ford driver last won the World Rally Championship; the Hotfiel Sport Focus effort in the WTCC was an unmitigated disaster; the Mondeo era in the BTCC promised much but delivered single drivers' and manufacturers' titles, both in 2000 when the series was in its Super Touring death throes; it is well known that the company managed to keep the fact that one of its engines powered Schumacher's Benetton to the F1 title in 1994 an incredibly well-kept secret from the wider public; and the stories of the Stewart and Jaguar F1 efforts were hardly indicative of a manufacturer knowing what it was doing in F1. Only in V8 Supercars have Fords and their drivers been regular title winners. Beyond that, there have been victories, but never enough for major titles of any sort. I find this quite sad, given Ford's great heritage in motorsport, and quite hard to understand. Is it a lack of commitment at a high level?

[Plan9]

I read that Ford's aim in motorsport was just to compete. Company policy does not recommend that they make cars that are champiohsip winners, taking part is more than enough. This belief has been passed down from the Ford family.

[Bobcat]

I read that Ford's aim in motorsport was just to compete. Company policy does not recommend that they make cars that are champiohsip winners, taking part is more than enough. This belief has been passed down from the Ford family.

If you look back at the history, it was quite the contrary. Well, maybe not everyone knows the story about the company's "Ford Total Performance" plan... Amazon.com: Ford Total Performance: The Road to World Racing Domination, 1962-1970 (0075478013272): Alex Gabbard: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Ford-Total-Performance-Domination-1962-1970/dp/1557883270)
YouTube - 1963 Proven Total Performance Ford Racing Filmstrip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3w5Ry0MvGc)

[Plan9]

If you look back at the history, it was quite the contrary. Well, maybe not everyone knows the story about the company's "Ford Total Performance" plan... Amazon.com: Ford Total Performance: The Road to World Racing Domination, 1962-1970 (0075478013272): Alex Gabbard: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Ford-Total-Performance-Domination-1962-1970/dp/1557883270)
YouTube - 1963 Proven Total Performance Ford Racing Filmstrip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3w5Ry0MvGc)

Thats is interesting. I would like to show you the source for my last comment: Henry Ford - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_ford#Racing) I think that it is quite relevant to ford's recent performances in worldwide motorsport.

[6789]

Ford don't dominate in V8 Supercars, if you look at the last 10 -15 years Holden have been on top in the Championship more. Probably more importantly Holden has won alot more Bathursts in the last 15 years. But when 888 were with Ford, they were dominant, which is more to do with the organization. At one stage Ford withdrew sponsorship of the 888 team and they changed to Holden. Now with Holden 888 is winning Bathursts and a few championships

[sollitt]

Thats is interesting. I would like to show you the source for my last comment: Henry Ford - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_ford#Racing) I think that it is quite relevant to ford's recent performances in worldwide motorsport.

Not sure where you got that idea.


He describes himself as someone who raced only because in the 1890s through 1910s, one had to race because prevailing ignorance held that racing was the way to prove the worth of an automobile. Ford did not agree. But he was determined that as long as this was the definition of success (flawed though the definition was), then his cars would be the best that there were at racing.

Not that Wikipedia is a particularly reliable source of anything.

[Bobcat]

World Rally Championship - News - Features - WRC half term review, part two: Ford (http://www.wrc.com/news/features/wrc-half-term-review-part-two-ford/?fid=14972)
Malcolm Wilson: "We’ve got the pace but we’ve had some small technical issues"

Small? What does he mean by 'some small technical issues'? Did he only mean it as a small joke? :confused:

[Barreis]

And JML.

[focus206]

If Malcolm says that they have small issues... I'm afraid that they actually have huge issues :(

[Bobcat]

"The Ford team will unveil a new two-floor team headquarters. The ground floor contains a large open area for guests, a kitchen and toilets. The first floor has four meeting rooms, a physiotherapists' room, two offices for engineering staff and a centre area for team personnel. The HQ has 14 TV screens across all areas, showing stage times, maps and promotional information. It will take a team of 24 staff four days to erect the facility and two days to take it down again."

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-peHPYDW4nAM/TinO8OvDbiI/AAAAAAAAD0c/czkUZ-I6yc4/s640/Kuva785.jpg

[MJW]

I notice that positively the hospitality unit is Ford branded and coloured, with sponsor branding at low level that can be easily changed. Unfortunately its the kind of unit that wont be out of place at a,(wtcc) racetrack. I wonder if AbuDhabi money will still be there next year?
Globally I think Ford are back in profit, and the US market is important to them and for Fiesta sales in US, maybe Ford realise they need to spend some corporate money. i did find the video interview that Quinn did with that American channel / website encouraging, but with little signs of desperation, I wonder if Seb 1 has had a phone call since Acropolis sat night from Malcolm or Gerard Quinn?

[rallyfiend]

If it takes that long to set up and pull down, surely this is a monumental waste of money and a shortsighted investment given Todt's determination to take the sport away from the cloverleaf format.

[Bobcat]

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/bestofrallylive/status/97236330102267904) / New hospitality facilities for Ford | Best of Rally Live (http://www.best-of-rallylive.com/en/2011/07/30/new-hospitality-facilities-for-ford/)

"...It basically uses three specially designed semi-trailers – called ‘pods’ – parked in a horseshoe shape, with three more pods stacked on top of them to provide a second storey. Add a roof, flooring and the glass structure which “closes” the horseshoe and you end up with a facility that can seat 300 guests, plus office space, meeting rooms, a physio area and appropriately sized kitchen facilities...
...in addition to being extremely functional, the concept is believed to be unique and calls on a HIAB crane mounted on a seventh truck to manoeuvre the ‘upstairs’ pods into place. “The crane can lift five tonnes at 18 metres and there are only two like it in the UK,” notes Andrew. “The aim is to be able to erect everything in 36 hours, but it takes a little longer for the moment. All the logistics are looked after by our partner Stobart [one of the UK’s biggest haulage companies] and all the trucks and trailers were specified with Michelin tyres…"

The Ford problem is that it's really better to have a quicker engine with more horsepower and more torque than the mega posh hospitality with the unique crane. :confused: :rolleyes:

[Barreis]

Even with more bhp they can not beat Loeb 'cos he's better then the current ford line up.

[ste898]

"The Ford team will unveil a new two-floor team headquarters. The ground floor contains a large open area for guests, a kitchen and toilets. The first floor has four meeting rooms, a physiotherapists' room, two offices for engineering staff and a centre area for team personnel. The HQ has 14 TV screens across all areas, showing stage times, maps and promotional information. It will take a team of 24 staff four days to erect the facility and two days to take it down again."

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-peHPYDW4nAM/TinO8OvDbiI/AAAAAAAAD0c/czkUZ-I6yc4/s640/Kuva785.jpg

What a lotal waste of moey !!!

I so hope they move away from the central servicing Malcolm will be sooooooo peed off then but serves him right

Also Ford should end the contract with M-Sport asap!!!!

[Daniel]

What a lotal waste of moey !!!

I so hope they move away from the central servicing Malcolm will be sooooooo peed off then but serves him right

Also Ford should end the contract with M-Sport asap!!!!
Glad you're finally coming around to my way of thinking Ste.....

[Bobcat]

Even with more bhp they can not beat Loeb 'cos he's better then the current ford line up.

Maybe..., or maybe they can beat him with a better engine... http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/141407-rally-finland-2011-a-65.html#post948789

Q. Is the car (Fiesta) good enough to win?

Mikko: "Definitely the handling is, but we will have to see the opposition and what they've got from the engine before we know for sure. But really, the way the car is feeling, the handling is so fantastic."

Q & A: Hirvonen on Rally Finland - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93415)

[dimviii]

Maybe..., or maybe they can beat him with a better engine... http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/141407-rally-finland-2011-a-65.html#post948789

Q. Is the car (Fiesta) good enough to win?

Mikko: "Definitely the handling is, but we will have to see the opposition and what they've got from the engine before we know for sure. But really, the way the car is feeling, the handling is so fantastic."

Q & A: Hirvonen on Rally Finland - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93415)

of course engine is enough powerfull! i really can t listen so many excuses when loosing...
How the fiesta engine can be weak while for 2 days he gained ss wins with enough margin?
They just can t be steady in driving,and they lack to find the right setup from beggining.Citroen is expert at this(including drivers/mechanics)
We ve see the same story a lot of times this year.In Finland was very clear why they loose..

[logic]

It has nothing to do with engine power , it has been proven in this last rally Miko needs a swift kick in the ass or a motivation to drive hard and set competitive times .

[N.O.T]

It has nothing to do with engine power , it has been proven in this last rally Miko needs a swift kick in the ass or a motivation to drive hard and set competitive times .

or drive on roads he knows by heart...

[AMSS]

It has nothing to do with engine power , it has been proven in this last rally Miko needs a swift kick in the ass or a motivation to drive hard and set competitive times .

I was on 9 stages at WRC Finland and can with great assurance say that Fords engine is clearly not as good as the Citroens, I also discussed this matter with old collegues still working in the WRC and got it confirmed!!
As they lack in engine power than they might make it up in speed in good handling which really looked good!
Anyhow the Ford guys claim that they would have an answer for better engine performance but the solution is so expensive they haven`t gotten approval from up high in the management.
What makes me almost sick in this case is that they can afford to build a big hospitality place but not a good engine.. Ok marketing is everything but what wouldn`t they gain if they would start winning??
I bet you could get the performance needed with the money spent on the trucks...

[Bobcat]

of course engine is enough powerfull! i really can t listen so many excuses when loosing...
How the fiesta engine can be weak while for 2 days he gained ss wins with enough margin?..

It has nothing to do with engine power , it has been proven in this last rally Miko needs a swift kick in the ass or a motivation to drive hard and set competitive times .
Did FVS (http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/141407-rally-finland-2011-a-65.html#post948789) lie about his Rally Finland report?

...First of all if we compare the three manufactores and starting with the Engine.
Citroen clearly again has the best engine, my guess from looking at them on the stages would be that they have alot more torque than Ford but hp not so big difference. And Mini, well what`s there to say, everyone looking at the same cars I did should notice that they clearly lack in power compared to the other 2 teams.
A good indication of this is that of all the places we were out looking at than the Mini never got to 6th gear whereas both Ford and Citroen got ( Citroen around 100m on average earlier than the Fords btw.)...

[logic]

I was on 9 stages at WRC Finland and can with great assurance say that Fords engine is clearly not as good as the Citroens, I also discussed this matter with old collegues still working in the WRC and got it confirmed!!
As they lack in engine power than they might make it up in speed in good handling which really looked good!
Anyhow the Ford guys claim that they would have an answer for better engine performance but the solution is so expensive they haven`t gotten approval from up high in the management.
What makes me almost sick in this case is that they can afford to build a big hospitality place but not a good engine.. Ok marketing is everything but what wouldn`t they gain if they would start winning??
I bet you could get the performance needed with the money spent on the trucks...
We do not know if they knocked back the engines for the reliability , but it seems citroen has found the reliable /performance package with the engine.
But the Joke is both engines are built by Pipo lllolol

[Mirek]

I was on 9 stages at WRC Finland and can with great assurance say that Fords engine is clearly not as good as the Citroens, I also discussed this matter with old collegues still working in the WRC and got it confirmed!!

Had the same feeling.

[MJW]

No, Citroen engines are built "in house"whilst Ford engines are buult by Pipo Motoeurs.

[logic]

Ah ok , well i think Ford needs to seek some alternate engine builders to see what they can do.

[BleAivano]

I was on 9 stages at WRC Finland and can with great assurance say that Fords engine is clearly not as good as the Citroens, I also discussed this matter with old collegues still working in the WRC and got it confirmed!!
As they lack in engine power than they might make it up in speed in good handling which really looked good!
Anyhow the Ford guys claim that they would have an answer for better engine performance but the solution is so expensive they haven`t gotten approval from up high in the management.
What makes me almost sick in this case is that they can afford to build a big hospitality place but not a good engine.. Ok marketing is everything but what wouldn`t they gain if they would start winning??
I bet you could get the performance needed with the money spent on the trucks...

honestly i am not so sure as it didn't seemed to be any wrong with Hirvonen's engine. If Fords engine is weaker then Citroen's how come Mikko could win so many stages?

[Mirek]

What makes the result is not just engine. It's thousand of small things including people...

[Bobcat]

Anyhow the Ford guys claim that they would have an answer for better engine performance but the solution is so expensive they haven`t gotten approval from up high in the management.
Is the solution really so expensive for Ford Motorsport?

Ford Motorsport’s latest news: Ford will be using its modified WRC 1.6 engine in the 2012 WTCC.

So I think the expensive solution is a good investment together for WRC and WTCC.

[tfp]

honestly i am not so sure as it didn't seemed to be any wrong with Hirvonen's engine. If Fords engine is weaker then Citroen's how come Mikko could win so many stages?

Cos Mikko was faster than the competition. Unfortunately, even he cant recover from a crash in the 1st stage and driving a 2wd car for the following two stages ;)

[tfp]

Is the solution really so expensive for Ford Motorsport?

Ford Motorsport’s latest news: Ford will be using its modified WRC 1.6 engine in the 2012 WTCC.

So I think the expensive solution is a good investment together for WRC and WTCC.

Good idea, I hope ford motorsport think the same!

[MJW]

Personally I think that is bad news. I am picking up some gossip / vibes that Ford is not yet confirmed for WRC 2012.

[Bobcat]

Ah ok , well i think Ford needs to seek some alternate engine builders to see what they can do.
Mountune Racing Engines was appointed to develop the 1.6 litre turbo Ecoboost engine for WTCC, based on the WRC power plant.

The simple question is why wasn't Pipo Motoeurs appointed to develop and implement modifications to the WRC engine for the 2012 WTCC?

[Racing Ka]

Mountune maybe have now good results in BTCC and Rallycross and X-Games with Ford engines..

[dimviii]

Did FVS (http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/141407-rally-finland-2011-a-65.html#post948789) lie about his Rally Finland report?
its not about lies,its about feeling from what you see.But its impossible to find differences by eye when the difference between these 2 cars is 3 sec after 20-30 km.
Any body to answer the one million question?

How Mikko and Jari can gain ss wins at all the gravel rallies so far with a weak engine?

[Daniel]

Pipo built very successful engines for Peugeot so personally I don't see a problem with Pipo....

[Gregor-y]

What part of the engine build is being done outside of Ford? Is it machining/honing the engine blocks and matching/fabricating the internals or does it run all the way through assembly?

[Allyc85]

Is there any speed trap data top actually prove the engine is the problem?

[MJW]

I dont think its a weak engine by any sense of imagination. The engine in the Fiesta now sounds to me to be remarkably like the old Focus engine sound, even watch the deep red glow in the exhaust (very Focus WRC) - contrast that with the high revving DS3 engine which sounded like the C4. Basically what I am saying is that the of the characteristics of the previous generations have carried forward in the DNA of the newer engines. Ford Focus was known to have massive torque and be a lazy engine, whilst the Citroen motors was revvy and fast up the gearchanges. I read somewhere that newer smaller capacity engines need to be up at the top end of the rev range to develop their power. Maybe its a power band thing, but listen to new Fiesta and compare the engine note to old Focus WRC. Very similar? The DS3 like the C4 looks to be a better accelerating car, Focus on the other hand apparently you could be in any gear from 1500rpm and the legendary torque got you out of trouble. Like Focus and C4 were similar power, its where and how they delivered it was the difference, one was lazy torque with a 5 speed box and the other fast up the rev range with a six speed box. OK I know that Fiesta has a six speed box, but do you get my point?

[RS]

But engine performance is more than just about the top speed the car can achieve and actually Finland is maybe not the most testing rally for overall engine performance. Sordo made the point that he thought the Mini's engine needed work but that he was more worried about this for Germany than Finland.

The Fiesta clearly was fast enough to win in Finland but the reason why it didn't can be a combination of factors including setup, wrong tactics, driver errors. I guess the concern is if they can't do it in Finland with two Finns behind the wheel then where? The gaps are not huge these days but Citroen always seem to come out on top. Has Ogier pushed Loeb onto another level that Sordo couldn't manage to do?

[AMSS]

But engine performance is more than just about the top speed the car can achieve and actually Finland is maybe not the most testing rally for overall engine performance. Sordo made the point that he thought the Mini's engine needed work but that he was more worried about this for Germany than Finland.

The Fiesta clearly was fast enough to win in Finland but the reason why it didn't can be a combination of factors including setup, wrong tactics, driver errors. I guess the concern is if they can't do it in Finland with two Finns behind the wheel then where? The gaps are not huge these days but Citroen always seem to come out on top. Has Ogier pushed Loeb onto another level that Sordo couldn't manage to do?

Perhaps I was a bit too drastic in my opinion, what I`m trying to say is that due to the lesser torque engine( which is what I originally wrote) the fords had clear notable problems finding the right gear for longer corners( either it was to small and going against the rev limiter, or to big not giving power) compared to the Citroens.
In Finland this is very important to be able to drive the long corners on 1 gear to get the speed out of the corners.
Nowhere else in the championship series is there similary lot`s of long fast corners, feel free to ask anybody.
If we look at the previous wins than since 2000 all but 2 wins are with lowend torque engines( not rev engines) Peugeot and Ford ( ok Marcus would probably have won with anything).
If I remeber correctly than it was the 307`s only win in one season and they even were top 3 at one point.
And the 307 had only 4 gears back than due to the huge amount of torque!
So are these only coinsidies.. think not.

[Mirek]

I think that we shouldn't overate Mikko's speed in Finland in relation to the engine performance. Remember Jani Paasonen's drive with Fabia WRC back in 2004? The engine wasn't good at all and he was very competitive despite that (on the contrary to most of other results of the car regardless the driver). Same goes this year to Hänninen or Tänak. If Finland was much about engines, they could never do what they did with their 2.0 N/A engines.

My point is that anywhere else the S2000 are much slower than WRC except Finland and Sweden which is fact. S2000 cars are basically same with WRC except engine and aerodynamics. From this I assume that the main time difference between these two classes of cars is given by engine. Here in Finland the difference was much smaller than in for example Sardinia which is very technical event with a lot of slow corners and soft surface.

[OldF]

Afaik both Citroen and Ford are both using the same turbo so they should have the same amount of air in the intake manifold. If Citroen has more torque / power the only thing I can come up with is that the Citroen’s engine has better volumetric and overall efficiency.

[Mirek]

The engines are not same so they must differ. Citroën has for example slightly longer stroke.

[Bobcat]

Personally I think that is bad news. I am picking up some gossip / vibes that Ford is not yet confirmed for WRC 2012.

Jost Capito, director of Ford Global Motorsport Business Development, Mike Earle principal of Arena Motorsport and Paul Hui principal of FRD Motorsport visited the WTCC paddock in Donington Park.

Though I am a fan of Ford and WRC, I think it is primarily bad news for Wilson. I'm dead sure that Ford doesn't need another failure of M-Sport in WRC. Ford needs a strong and in-house team in WRC.

[AndyRAC]

Jost Capito, director of Ford Global Motorsport Business Development, Mike Earle principal of Arena Motorsport and Paul Hui principal of FRD Motorsport visited the WTCC paddock in Donington Park.

Though I am a fan of Ford and WRC, I think it is primarily bad news for Wilson. I'm dead sure that Ford doesn't need another failure of M-Sport in WRC. Ford needs a strong and in-house team in WRC.

What Ford needs is a proper budget - trying to do it on the cheap doesn't work! Going to the WTCC would be a mistake - that's a dead duck series with only 1 serious Manufacturer.

[MJW]

What Ford needs is a proper budget - trying to do it on the cheap doesn't work! Going to the WTCC would be a mistake - that's a dead duck series with only 1 serious Manufacturer.
But you have to remember WTCC gets good coverage on Eurosport, and who cares if Ford have one other manufacturer to beat (a feat they cant manage in WRC) car buying viewers will see the 'global Focus' on TV screens, corporate guests can visit that new motorhome that debuted in Finland. Also WTCC like its also ailing series WRC is constantly saying new manufacturers are joining, a few months ago Subaru was supposed to be joining WTCC. Personally I think Eurosport Events are doing a better job than North One Sport as promoter of an FIA sanctioned series. Also look at it from Ford's point of view, for whatever reason, partly budget I am sure, Ford cant beat Citroen, where will they finish when VW join? They could become the new Hyundai / Suzuki etc.

[OldF]

The engines are not same so they must differ. Citroën has for example slightly longer stroke.

For sure the engines are different but what I tried to point out, is if two different engines get the same amount of air (I assume it’s no problem to get the necessary fuel injected) and what happens after that is where the engine science begins. To take the most out of the into the cylinder fed energy is imo the most important thing to have an effective engine.


Mirek, I’m sure you already know what I’m trying to explain. :)

[focus206]

But you have to remember WTCC gets good coverage on Eurosport, and who cares if Ford have one other manufacturer to beat (a feat they cant manage in WRC) car buying viewers will see the 'global Focus' on TV screens, corporate guests can visit that new motorhome that debuted in Finland. Also WTCC like its also ailing series WRC is constantly saying new manufacturers are joining, a few months ago Subaru was supposed to be joining WTCC. Personally I think Eurosport Events are doing a better job than North One Sport as promoter of an FIA sanctioned series. Also look at it from Ford's point of view, for whatever reason, partly budget I am sure, Ford cant beat Citroen, where will they finish when VW join? They could become the new Hyundai / Suzuki etc.
They could (and they should) take the project in their hands as a real works team like Citroen does, since it's clear that with M-Sport they would need decades to take a title away from Citroen (and now VW is also joining)...
Anyway I don't think they will ever do it, and there are good possibilities that soon we won't see any Ford works team in WRC... maybe already in 2012?

[BDunnell]

...good coverage on Eurosport

Is there such a thing?

[BDunnell]

They could (and they should) take the project in their hands as a real works team like Citroen does

I've never been sure how true this is as an argument, because the vast majority of 'works' teams in world motorsport are not run directly from the factory. I'm thinking back to when there were 10 or so manufacturer teams in the British Touring Car Championship, and Peugeot's was the only one actually run from the factory. They never won a race. Mind you, they never won one when an outside preparation company was brought in either, but you see the point. It's not a guarantee of Citroen-style success.

[BDunnell]

But you have to remember WTCC gets good coverage on Eurosport, and who cares if Ford have one other manufacturer to beat (a feat they cant manage in WRC) car buying viewers will see the 'global Focus' on TV screens

Well, in the UK at the moment we see the Global Focus on our TV screens — being comprehensively beaten by last year's Focus run by an independent team.

[Motorsportfun]

WTCC gets good coverage on Eurosport

Ok, after Eurosport? Nothing...

...this year's Power Stages are giving - I can bet anything - almost 150 million viewers worldwide via all the tv channels; Sport1 is free to air, Nitro the same, Rai Sport 2 here in Italy too...

[Barreis]

But you have to remember WTCC gets good coverage on Eurosport, and who cares if Ford have one other manufacturer to beat (a feat they cant manage in WRC) car buying viewers will see the 'global Focus' on TV screens, corporate guests can visit that new motorhome that debuted in Finland. Also WTCC like its also ailing series WRC is constantly saying new manufacturers are joining, a few months ago Subaru was supposed to be joining WTCC. Personally I think Eurosport Events are doing a better job than North One Sport as promoter of an FIA sanctioned series. Also look at it from Ford's point of view, for whatever reason, partly budget I am sure, Ford cant beat Citroen, where will they finish when VW join? They could become the new Hyundai / Suzuki etc.

Agree.

[Daniel]

Ok, after Eurosport? Nothing...

...this year's Power Stages are giving - I can bet anything - almost 150 million viewers worldwide via all the tv channels; Sport1 is free to air, Nitro the same, Rai Sport 2 here in Italy too...

Are you smoking something? You are DREAMING if you think that 150 million people watch the WRC.

[Barreis]

Ok, after Eurosport? Nothing...

...this year's Power Stages are giving - I can bet anything - almost 150 million viewers worldwide via all the tv channels; Sport1 is free to air, Nitro the same, Rai Sport 2 here in Italy too...

If it was 150 million viewers this should be a popular sport. Wrong. If it is 3 millions it's GREATTTTT.

[AndyRAC]

Ok, after Eurosport? Nothing...

...this year's Power Stages are giving - I can bet anything - almost 150 million viewers worldwide via all the tv channels; Sport1 is free to air, Nitro the same, Rai Sport 2 here in Italy too...

You surely can't be serious???
ESPN didn't even have the Power stage live - for the most important event of the season!! The reason, virtually nobody is watching it - so they put a friendly football match on.
As somebody else said, if they really were getting those figures, the sport would be popular, with lots more Manufacturers, sponsors, etc As it is, the sport still isn't despite what we are told.

[focus206]

I've never been sure how true this is as an argument, because the vast majority of 'works' teams in world motorsport are not run directly from the factory. I'm thinking back to when there were 10 or so manufacturer teams in the British Touring Car Championship, and Peugeot's was the only one actually run from the factory. They never won a race. Mind you, they never won one when an outside preparation company was brought in either, but you see the point. It's not a guarantee of Citroen-style success.
Of course a success is not certain. But sticking with M-Sport won't lead Ford anywhere. They could try to do all by themselves or to give the project to another team, instead of M-Sport. If they don't want to, there is no point in staying in WRC with them. At least this is what I think.

PS: wasn't it from Peugeot UK the entry in BTCC some times ago?

[AMSS]

If it was 150 million viewers this should be a popular sport. Wrong. If it is 3 millions it's GREATTTTT.

Don`t know if it`s true or not, but the organizers of Neste Rally Finland claimed to have the TV broadcasting reports fom Thursdays laajavuori stage claiming there to be a bit of 50 million, viewers?

[N.O.T]

given that the population of europe is around 830 million and rallying is hardly known outside of europe 50 million is a good number... 150 million i think its a bit optimistic.

The sport needs the USA !!! and USA needs the sport because they do not have a serious motorsport over there....

As for the topic, i really would like to hear the opinion of FORD after this season, when in the motorsport they spend the most money on they have only 1 win in a 2 manufacturer entry... but all is good as long as slow-son drives....

[vkangas]

The sport needs the USA !!! and USA needs the sport because they do not have a serious motorsport over there....

It would be nice but think USA is very unlikely in atleast next five to ten years. According to Mahonen WRC is more likely expanding to Asia. He has also mentioned the countries that are first on the list but can't remember them.

[rp]

It would be nice but think USA is very unlikely in atleast next five to ten years. According to Mahonen WRC is more likely expanding to Asia. He has also mentioned the countries that are first on the list but can't remember them.

First is China...

[Tomi]

First is China...

and then south africa and india

[Daniel]

and then south africa and india

Why can't we just focus on getting some of the classic events being run in more classic formats, getting the coverage sorted and the try to expand the calendar? :mark:

[AndyRAC]

Why can't we just focus on getting some of the classic events being run in more classic formats, getting the coverage sorted and the try to expand the calendar? :mark:

A case of walking before you can run.
Agree, sort the series out, with more Manufacturers, better media coverage, etc then when it's stable - try to expand/invite new countries. Just don't go down the F1 route of events paying money for inclusion - won't work for WRC, not a big enough sport.

[Bobcat]

Why can't we just focus on getting some of the classic events being run in more classic formats, getting the coverage sorted and the try to expand the calendar? :mark:

2012 WRC Calendar Brings Budget Concerns for Ford - autoevolution (http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2012-wrc-calendar-brings-budget-concerns-for-ford-32965.html)
Ford concerned by WRC 2012 Calendar | Inside Rally (http://www.insiderally.com/2011/03/18/ford-concerned-by-wrc-2012-calendar/)

[rallyfiend]

2012 WRC Calendar Brings Budget Concerns for Ford - autoevolution (http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2012-wrc-calendar-brings-budget-concerns-for-ford-32965.html)
Ford concerned by WRC 2012 Calendar | Inside Rally (http://www.insiderally.com/2011/03/18/ford-concerned-by-wrc-2012-calendar/)

You realise those articles are from March don't you?

[6789]

You realise those articles are from March don't you?

Lol. Maybe he was referring to the discussion on expanding the WRC cal. Let's get the 12 or 13 rounds be awesome then go to the rest of the world. As long as the WRc come to Aus or NZ :)

[Gregor-y]

The sport needs the USA !!! and USA needs the sport because they do not have a serious motorsport over there...
I'd like that (if it was in my part of the country, anyway), but there's the problem of manufacturers. Citroen doesn't sell cars here, Ford sells a Fiesta but in their infinite wisdom decided we should have a specially engineered sedan rather than the three door that is used for the WRC. That means MINI is the only manufacturer that has any relevance to the market. If you want to consider us one of those undeveloped exotic locations then I suppose it's okay, though. I'm sure there wasn't much of a market for Lancia in the Ivory Coast thirty years ago, either.

Make it early in the year, say at the 100 Acre Wood rally in late February. That's pretty close to me and the local economy would love it. Just be sure it's before Trout Season starts. Or if Monaco doesn't work out there's always Sno*Drift at the end of January.

[logic]

I'd like that (if it was in my part of the country, anyway), but there's the problem of manufacturers. Citroen doesn't sell cars here, Ford sells a Fiesta but in their infinite wisdom decided we should have a specially engineered sedan rather than the three door that is used for the WRC. That means MINI is the only manufacturer that has any relevance to the market. If you want to consider us one of those undeveloped exotic locations then I suppose it's okay, though. I'm sure there wasn't much of a market for Lancia in the Ivory Coast thirty years ago, either.

Make it early in the year, say at the 100 Acre Wood rally in late February. That's pretty close to me and the local economy would love it. Just be sure it's before Trout Season starts. Or if Monaco doesn't work out there's always Sno*Drift at the end of January.

But you guys class structure does not follow anything the FIA has also you cannot use studded snow tires in the US.

[Bobcat]

It would be nice but think USA is very unlikely in atleast next five to ten years. According to Mahonen WRC is more likely expanding to Asia. He has also mentioned the countries that are first on the list but can't remember them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipmt__i8XoA

"An exclusive interview with Ford's head of Motorsports in Europe, Gerard Quinn. We go over the first half of the WRC season and discuss the development of the new WRC class for this year, particularly the new Ford Fiesta.
Then he drops an interesting tidbit about the possibility of the WRC returning to the USA."

[Bobcat]

You realise those articles are from March don't you? Right and why don't you realize that those articles are about Ford's budget for the 2012 WRC? LOL

[Gregor-y]

But you guys class structure does not follow anything the FIA has also you cannot use studded snow tires in the US.
Since the cars are registered for road use they need to follow the state requirements and yes, many states do not allow studded snows. As for the class structure There's nothing preventing FIA approved classes from running, it's just that they're too expensive (group N died a fairly painless death a year or so ago) compared to rules more friendly to guys with a shed, some pipes, a welder and a used Subaru.

It's not that simple, of course, but the rules are a lot less restrictive when it comes to getting or making your own components.

[Motorsportfun]

Are you smoking something? You are DREAMING if you think that 150 million people watch the WRC.

Let's try to understand the situation. The WTCC declared that has been followed on tv by about 120 million viewers, just on Eurosport. The WRC, back in 2009, was about 60 million viewers, in a year like that with just 2 Manufacturers and nothing else. In many nations Eurosport is a pay-tv channel, while WRC has many free tv's on his portfolio. Who's lying???

In UK there's the difficulty of a pay-tv channel, which is ESPN. So limited tv access for the people. Right, but Sport1 in Germany is free to air, isn't it? Rai Sport 2, here in Italy, had 500k viewers for the Italian Rally Championship's small "power stages"! There's Italia 1 (by Mediaset, Berlusconi's free tv) broadcasting reports on his sports programmes... >1million viewers watch them every day. What are the TV-figures in Finland, Norway, France, South America (FOX Sports), etc.?

Let's do a small survey...


Don`t know if it`s true or not, but the organizers of Neste Rally Finland claimed to have the TV broadcasting reports fom Thursdays laajavuori stage claiming there to be a bit of 50 million, viewers?

Anyone else?

[Motorsportfun]

Why can't we just focus on getting some of the classic events being run in more classic formats, getting the coverage sorted and the try to expand the calendar? :mark:

Who pays for a new Safari? Who pays for an old-style Acropolis, just the Casino?

Don't make me laugh, please... :D :D :D

That's the truth, but is bad: WRC needs new markets (so, new money) to survive, like football or F1. There's no other option. :s mokin:

[Motorsportfun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipmt__i8XoA

"An exclusive interview with Ford's head of Motorsports in Europe, Gerard Quinn. We go over the first half of the WRC season and discuss the development of the new WRC class for this year, particularly the new Ford Fiesta.
Then he drops an interesting tidbit about the possibility of the WRC returning to the USA."

Simon Long told me that WRC is evaluating his options. They're thinking to create an tv-purposed event or a road show in the first year, to create the conditions to organize a proper WRC event in the future. But it's a work which needs still some years.

[Motorsportfun]

Why can't we just focus on getting some of the classic events being run in more classic formats, getting the coverage sorted and the try to expand the calendar? :mark:

Who pays for a new Safari? Who pays for an old-style Acropolis, just the Casino?

Don't make me laugh, please... :D :D :D

That's the truth, but is bad: WRC needs new markets (so, new money) to survive, like football or F1. There's no other option. :s mokin:

IMHO: no Greece, Mexico, Jordan. Should be better go to growing markets like Turkey or Poland (which is actually the most-growing nation in Europe!), Australia instead of NZ, etc.

[Nornbugger]

What a lotal waste of moNey !!!

I so hope they move away from the central servicing Malcolm will be sooooooo peed off then but serves him right

Also Ford should end the contract with M-Sport asap!!!!

could someone please remind us all what Ford won before they got MSport to run the rally team?

[tfp]

Who pays for a new Safari? Who pays for an old-style Acropolis, just the Casino?

Don't make me laugh, please... :D :D :D

That's the truth, but is bad: WRC needs new markets (so, new money) to survive, like football or F1. There's no other option. :s mokin:

The introduction of the powerstage is definetly a move in the right direction. We need more of this.

[N.O.T]

could someone please remind us all what Ford won before they got MSport to run the rally team?

Nothing...and with M-sport they won the tablescraps of the french...so nothing.

[Josti]

could someone please remind us all what Ford won before they got MSport to run the rally team?

Yes, you could argue that they haven't won much before, but currently it's a two team championship, which it has been for quite some years now (even when Subaru was formally still competing...).

[Bobcat]

could someone please remind us all what Ford won before they got MSport to run the rally team?
In addition to two drivers' titles (Waldegard and Vatanen) and one manufacturers' title, Ford has taken many 2nd and 3rd places (10) in the FIA WR manufacturers' championship until 1997.

Ford Manufacturer Profile & Rally History : Rallye-Info.com (http://www.rallye-info.com/carmake_profile.asp?make=1)

[GigiGalliNo1]

I see Ketomaa is being eye'd off by Wilson but again, he does this to bring in the young guns $$$£££€€€ and then stuffs it up for the motorsport!

Least the seat might go to someone more rewarding than Matt Wilson, and no I don't have anything against him but like we've said before - Matt should have started in 1600, PWRC or somewhere when S2000 then began to improve and show he can do WRC rather then jumping right into it! Gardemeister would be worth more to M-Sport!!

[Nornbugger]

In addition to two drivers' titles (Waldegard and Vatanen) and one manufacturers' title, Ford has taken many 2nd and 3rd places (10) in the FIA WR manufacturers' championship until 1997.

Ford Manufacturer Profile & Rally History : Rallye-Info.com (http://www.rallye-info.com/carmake_profile.asp?make=1)


They did win these, and some events too but Ford have been making up numbers in the WRC for nearly 30 years, MSport were running the GpA cars every bit as well as the Works team, this is largly why Ford went to them to run them.
MSport have been guilty of dodgy driver choices particularly with Mikko who will never be a number 1, but they are up against the best driver ever in the WRC(he may have equals but no one has been better) in possibly the best team ever, that they have done as well as they have deserves some respect.
Subaru retired as a team because they kept getting their ass well kicked, Mitsubishi too, MSport has doggedly stuck at it and with a bit of luck could have had titles, Gronholm had chances, and Martin should have made a better fight for the title in 03.

[makinen_fan]

Qassim @ wrc.com story: "But I’m happy because there is progress and there is speed and you cannot ask for more than that." LoL...

full story here World Rally Championship - News - Khalid happy to keep progressing (http://www.wrc.com/news/khalid-happy-to-keep-progressing/?fid=15135)

[Miika]

Would laugh but since it´s a serious matter, I won´t. Thanks to that wallet Malcolm can run his car dealership, at least until VW arrives. Bring on VW.

[m.lowe]

I cannot understand why people are slagging Malcolm off hes a very successful businessman and hes done good on the budget he has which is probably not as much as Citroen but to blame him solely is wrong
Like others have said if Ford up the budget and throw more behind it then I think they will do well.
Look how well Malcolm did buy financing the S2000 cars as he knew it would not only make money for him and his company but it also highlighted the Ford name.

If Ford do come back into WTCC then it will be a private team running the cars the same as M-Sport and look at how on the last few rounds the AON cars where getting beat by their own cast offs from last year.

Look back to privateer teams when RAS ran the works team for Ford that finished as Ford thought they could go back to running it themselves then Malcom got the contract.

Get Markko Martin back in the team and that will lift the spirits and give the Citroens some competition

[sollitt]

It's called "the tall poppy syndrome'.

[Daniel]

It's called "the tall poppy syndrome'.

Not really, it's called expecting them to actually get better results considering how long they've been in the WRC.

[tfp]

They could have been competing in WRC for 200 years, if the budgets not there, they wont get results...
The fact is, MW only budgets about £1.00 for each of the stobart cars and about £1.50 for the abu dhabi cars....

[Bobcat]

he has which is probably not as much as Citroen but to blame him solely is wrong
Like others have said if Ford up the budget and throw more behind it then I think they will do well.

Maybe M-Sport and Ford Motorsport people can spend money less efficiently than Citroen people. For example, better to have the best engine than the best hospitality facility.

They need to spend more money on the development of the car.

Mudsnowandtar.com: "Jari-Matti Latvala told Kris Meeke he's never had to push so hard to keep up with the Citroens as he did in Finland this year."

[Daniel]

Maybe M-Sport and Ford Motorsport people can spend money less efficiently than Citroen people. For example, better to have the best engine than the best hospitality facility.

They need to spend more money on the development of the car.

Mudsnowandtar.com: "Jari-Matti Latvala told Kris Meeke he's never had to push so hard to keep up with the Citroens as he did in Finland this year."

Completely agree.

[jbmarcus21]

Maybe M-Sport and Ford Motorsport people can spend money less efficiently than Citroen people. For example, better to have the best engine than the best hospitality facility.

They need to spend more money on the development of the car.

Mudsnowandtar.com: "Jari-Matti Latvala told Kris Meeke he's never had to push so hard to keep up with the Citroens as he did in Finland this year."

agree with you too

hospitality is important, but Fiesta power performance is better

[Bobcat]

Citroen: Citroen’s Toughest Year (http://www.mudsnowandtar.com/featured/citroens-toughest-year)

"Citroen Racing took the most expensive and technically demanding of the three engine development options available to all teams; to design and build a new engine from scratch. Although a clean sheet of paper may allow the team greater opportunities, we must consider Citroen Racing's complete lack of experience in engine design. "We've just made a new engine from nothing," explains Quesnel. "We've never done it like this, so it was completely new for us. We didn't know how direct injection worked. I think the engine will be much better at the end of the year than it is now, but I can't tell you what will happen to Ford's engine. In the end, I'm sure they will be exactly the same."

Let's not underestimate the difficulties that Citroen Racing faced, and continues to face, in designing its first all-new power unit at this level of competition; the team's decision to take this route with the engine may yet prove to be a burden."

[sollitt]

Not really, it's called expecting them to actually get better results considering how long they've been in the WRC.One of the benefits of being in business is that, regardless of how long you've been at it and/or what you may have achieved, you are entitled to a lifetime of free advice from wellwishing experts who know your business better than yourself. The trouble is, for most of the advisors, their only real achievement is learning to tie their own shoelaces.

[Daniel]

One of the benefits of being in business is that, regardless of how long you've been at it and/or what you may have achieved, you are entitled to a lifetime of free advice from wellwishing experts who know your business better than yourself. The trouble is, for most of the advisors, their only real achievement is learning to tie their own shoelaces.

Jeez Bruce, you really don't get the idea of a forum do you? Do we have to have run a team in the WRC to have a view on the WRC? :confused:

[BDunnell]

One of the benefits of being in business is that, regardless of how long you've been at it and/or what you may have achieved, you are entitled to a lifetime of free advice from wellwishing experts who know your business better than yourself. The trouble is, for most of the advisors, their only real achievement is learning to tie their own shoelaces.

Have you ever expressed an opinion about politics?

[Daniel]

Have you ever expressed an opinion about politics?

Of course not! He's never been Prime Minister or anything.

[Motorsportfun]

AUTOhebdo.fr | Alsace, rallye le plus suivi en 2010 (http://www.autohebdo.fr/rallye/wrc/breve-26-1-17772/030811-alsace-rallye-le-plus-suivi-en-2010)

First figures from last year's coverage... an average 45 millions viewers followed the WRC in 2010. Now, with Power Stages and much more televisions covering the sport, maybe will be higher, isn't it?

[Daniel]

AUTOhebdo.fr | Alsace, rallye le plus suivi en 2010 (http://www.autohebdo.fr/rallye/wrc/breve-26-1-17772/030811-alsace-rallye-le-plus-suivi-en-2010)

First figures from last year's coverage... an average 45 millions viewers followed the WRC in 2010. Now, with Power Stages and much more televisions covering the sport, maybe will be higher, isn't it?

WOW! That's only 75 MILLION different to what you GUESSED :laugh: Maybe there are 50 or 55 million watching now at most. 75 million :dozey:

[Motorsportfun]

If it was 150 million viewers this should be a popular sport. Wrong. If it is 3 millions it's GREATTTTT.

Luckily it's far better than this... :D

[N.O.T]

AUTOhebdo.fr | Alsace, rallye le plus suivi en 2010 (http://www.autohebdo.fr/rallye/wrc/breve-26-1-17772/030811-alsace-rallye-le-plus-suivi-en-2010)

First figures from last year's coverage... an average 45 millions viewers followed the WRC in 2010. Now, with Power Stages and much more televisions covering the sport, maybe will be higher, isn't it?

interesting number...now if we knew in which countries the WRC was broadcasted we could add up their populations and thne have a % of the population that watched the WRC.

[rallyfiend]

interesting number...now if we knew in which countries the WRC was broadcasted we could add up their populations and thne have a % of the population that watched the WRC.

You mean like this?
World Rally Championship - Fanzone - WRC TV Guide (http://www.wrc.com/fanzone/wrc-tv-guide/)

[N.O.T]

You mean like this?
World Rally Championship - Fanzone - WRC TV Guide (http://www.wrc.com/fanzone/wrc-tv-guide/)

yes this looks good now if we had number of people who are subscribed to these channels then we could have the estimate i am refering to...

[Motorsportfun]

You mean like this?
World Rally Championship - Fanzone - WRC TV Guide (http://www.wrc.com/fanzone/wrc-tv-guide/)

That guide is about 2011 coverage (which has grown a lot with the Power Stages and new tv-deals that weren't in place in 2010, such Nitro, Sport1, Mediaset, etc.), so is not a good indicator of last year's coverage.

Okay, maybe 150 millions is optimistic, but I think this year the WRC is about 100 millions, thanks to the new "products"... :)

[rallyfiend]

That guide is about 2011 coverage (which has grown a lot with the Power Stages and new tv-deals that weren't in place in 2010, such Nitro, Sport1, Mediaset, etc.), so is not a good indicator of last year's coverage.

Okay, maybe 150 millions is optimistic, but I think this year the WRC is about 100 millions, thanks to the new "products"... :)

This book seems to give good info
newsroom.wrc.com/content/WRC%20Factbook%202010.pdf

[Motorsportfun]

^^

2009 old infos... :(

[Nornbugger]

Maybe M-Sport and Ford Motorsport people can spend money less efficiently than Citroen people. For example, better to have the best engine than the best hospitality facility.

They need to spend more money on the development of the car.

Mudsnowandtar.com: "Jari-Matti Latvala told Kris Meeke he's never had to push so hard to keep up with the Citroens as he did in Finland this year."


when you depend on sponsorship you have to treat them well. MSport are doing something right as they have plenty of sponsors

[Plan9]

I don't think Ford will leave the WRC as long as they need to have it as a marketing tool and can sell some of their rally cars to independents. I'm think there is too much speculation about the results being a factor.

[Bobcat]

Wilson and Quinn are convinced that their factory squad can register a victory on asphalt this season.

World Rally Championship - News - Tarmac rounds hold no fear for Ford (http://www.wrc.com/news/tarmac-rounds-hold-no-fear-for-ford/?fid=15139)

Although Marcus Gronholm won for Ford on the Tarmac-based Rallye Monte Carlo in 2006, the Blue Oval hasn’t triumphed on a pure sealed surface event since Markko Martin’s victory in Catalunya in 2004.

[makinen_fan]

they couldnt win in finland and now they are convinced they can win in tar and especially germany... big mouths IMO...

[focus206]

they couldnt win in finland and now they are convinced they can win in tar and especially germany... big mouths IMO...

I agree. I think the Fiesta will be closer to the DS3 than the Focus was to the C4, but to create problem to Loeb is not likely... but Ogier's pace on tarmac is still to verify.

[bluuford]

I think that Wilson is relying on statistics. It is getting statistically less and less probable that nothing happens with Seb or his car in ADAC Rally Germany..

[focus206]

I think that Wilson is relying on statistics. It is getting statistically less and less probable that nothing happens with Seb or his car in ADAC Rally Germany..

But Loeb can defeat even statistics...

[Mirek]

I think that Wilson is relying on statistics. It is getting statistically less and less probable that nothing happens with Seb or his car in ADAC Rally Germany..

Good one :D

[tfp]

He could probably drive these stages through memory by now!

[AMSS]

Wilson and Quinn are convinced that their factory squad can register a victory on asphalt this season.

World Rally Championship - News - Tarmac rounds hold no fear for Ford (http://www.wrc.com/news/tarmac-rounds-hold-no-fear-for-ford/?fid=15139)

Although Marcus Gronholm won for Ford on the Tarmac-based Rallye Monte Carlo in 2006, the Blue Oval hasn’t triumphed on a pure sealed surface event since Markko Martin’s victory in Catalunya in 2004.

As much as I would want it ( for the sport) there`s no way on earth this will happen. If they can`t win in Finland which is the smootest gravel rally of the season( except the jumps) than there`s no chance they will win on tarmac.
Lot`s of things seem to go in the wrong direction at Ford at the moment, and investments being made in wrong areas IMO.
But this time I sincerely hope I´m wrong!

[Gregor-y]

Gronholm only won Monte because Loeb slid off the road at the end of the first day. With superally Loeb came back and took second place. When was Ford's last good chance on pavement? McRae? Sainz? Delecour?

[Mirek]

Markko Märtin ;)

[Nornbugger]

But Loeb can defeat even statistics...


the only thing Loeb has to beat in Germany are the odds of mech failure, there is no one who will be able to push him there

[makinen_fan]

looks like m-sport sees the wrc as a form to express their artistic side... they have a new competition for roof designs from today in facebook.. and they all look awful. it makes sence spending time to think that way instead of thinking about how to catch up with the Sebs

[focus206]

looks like m-sport sees the wrc as a form to express their artistic side... they have a new competition for roof designs from today in facebook.. and they all look awful. it makes sence spending time to think that way instead of thinking about how to catch up with the Sebs
Oh, God...

[rallyfiend]

looks like m-sport sees the wrc as a form to express their artistic side... they have a new competition for roof designs from today in facebook.. and they all look awful. it makes sence spending time to think that way instead of thinking about how to catch up with the Sebs

I think this is actually something you can't blame M-Sport for, but this shows the level of Ford's commitment to the WRC when this is the best idea they can come up with - twice.

[Miika]

How about a big "7-0" on top of their roofs, for celebrating all their wins on grave.. oh ****, it was the other way around. But the food was good, yes?

[AMSS]

This was written in the Fords facebook roof vote system. I think it more or less sums it all!



Instead of bling roofs which people hardly ever see anyway, how about using the money used here on the actual performance of the car and drivers. I am sick and tired of the Sebs winning, and I am even more fed up with M-Sport's excuses and ...performance with the car. Winning is the first priority, especially coming into a rally which is the biggest Citroen stronghold. Put your resources where it counts, put some more drivers in the cars capable of pressuring the Sebs and taking the pressure off Mikko and Jari-Matti.

[N.O.T]

I think the money spent all these years on slowson are nothing compared to those resources spent for roof drawings and trailer homes...

[Nornbugger]

This was written in the Fords facebook roof vote system. I think it more or less sums it all!

all lovely, but it is wrong, keeping solvent has to be the 1st priority

[Daniel]

all lovely, but it is wrong, keeping solvent has to be the 1st priority

Well then get rid of Slowson.

[Nornbugger]

Well then get rid of Slowson.


I'd be fine with that, but is he using 1st team money of family money and a bit of sponsorship?

[N.O.T]

In his case family money are team money....i doubt he has any sponsors. Maybe daddys small companies sposnors just for show....i hope next year he is out for good.

[Nornbugger]

In his case family money are team money....i doubt he has any sponsors. Maybe daddys small companies sposnors just for show....i hope next year he is out for good.


I think you'll find there is a difference in MSport money and Wilson family money

[Daniel]

I'd be fine with that, but is he using 1st team money of family money and a bit of sponsorship?

Daddy could do far better spending his money on the team rather than Matty.....

[Gregor-y]

Hiring more drivers doesn't help if Ford can only enter two cars under their name. If the rules were a changed a bit maybe they'd have some incentive to make the horde of privateer/pay Fiestas more competitive.

[Bobcat]

Citroen's tyre tactics stun rivals in Germany - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93832)

Citroen's tyre tactics stun rivals in Germany
By David Evans Friday, August 19th 2011, 14:48 GMT

A revolutionary approach to tyre choice helped Citroen to take an early lead in the Rallye Deutschland today.

Faced with a difficult choice of hard or soft Michelins for the loop of three stages, both Sebastien Loeb and Sebastien Ogier departed service with four soft tyres but then swapped and fitted hard covers to the left side of the DS3 WRCs only. The first stage was driven with the car in this configuration before the crews switched to four soft tyres for the rain-hit second stage.

"It was difficult this morning," said Loeb. "But, you know that you are going to lose some grip if the soft tyre overheats, so instead of losing all of the grip at the front or the rear, we ran the tyres on one side. It worked. We had run like this in testing."

Some of Citroen's rivals thought the French team had made a mistake, but Mikko Hirvonen said he would be running a set-up like this at Ford's next asphalt test.

"It's something to think about," said Hirvonen. "I hadn't heard of this before, but it's obviously worked for them, so, yes, we will try it next time. It wouldn't be easy to drive the car, particularly on corners going in one particular direction, but at least you would have some grip."

Michelin's motorsport director Nick Shorrock said he was surprised by Citroen's move as well, saying: "I hadn't seen it before, but it gives an extra element to the competition."

Citroen team principal Olivier Quesnel added that he had done it with the factory Peugeots at this year's Monte Carlo Rally.

With sunny and dry conditions now prevailing until the end of the event, the factory cars are all expected to run on hard tyres on each of the remaining loops.

[AndyRAC]

Citroen's tyre tactics stun rivals in Germany - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93832)

Citroen's tyre tactics stun rivals in Germany
By David Evans Friday, August 19th 2011, 14:48 GMT

A revolutionary approach to tyre choice helped Citroen to take an early lead in the Rallye Deutschland today.

Faced with a difficult choice of hard or soft Michelins for the loop of three stages, both Sebastien Loeb and Sebastien Ogier departed service with four soft tyres but then swapped and fitted hard covers to the left side of the DS3 WRCs only. The first stage was driven with the car in this configuration before the crews switched to four soft tyres for the rain-hit second stage.

"It was difficult this morning," said Loeb. "But, you know that you are going to lose some grip if the soft tyre overheats, so instead of losing all of the grip at the front or the rear, we ran the tyres on one side. It worked. We had run like this in testing."

Some of Citroen's rivals thought the French team had made a mistake, but Mikko Hirvonen said he would be running a set-up like this at Ford's next asphalt test.

"It's something to think about," said Hirvonen. "I hadn't heard of this before, but it's obviously worked for them, so, yes, we will try it next time. It wouldn't be easy to drive the car, particularly on corners going in one particular direction, but at least you would have some grip."

Michelin's motorsport director Nick Shorrock said he was surprised by Citroen's move as well, saying: "I hadn't seen it before, but it gives an extra element to the competition."

Citroen team principal Olivier Quesnel added that he had done it with the factory Peugeots at this year's Monte Carlo Rally.

With sunny and dry conditions now prevailing until the end of the event, the factory cars are all expected to run on hard tyres on each of the remaining loops.

I think this sums up the difference between Ford & Citroen. You could call it 'Thinking outside the box' - whatever it is, it's pretty clever, and once again they've left Ford with egg on their faces. Why haven't they thought of that?

[Daniel]

I think this sums up the difference between Ford & Citroen. You could call it 'Thinking outside the box' - whatever it is, it's pretty clever, and once again they've left Ford with egg on their faces. Why haven't they thought of that?

Pretty much. The WRC needs a proper 2 way or 3 way fight between teams. The only reason Ford are close on points is because there aren't enough Citroen's to take all the points. Mini and VW better pull their fingers out.....

[N.O.T]

in a way i am happy that m-sport is wasting money on slowson instead of the team....that way BMW and VW might push more money to be able to catch them since in the case of minis the difference with the fords is almost less than 0.5sec/km

[tfp]

Pretty much. The WRC needs a proper 2 way or 3 way fight between teams. The only reason Ford are close on points is because there aren't enough Citroen's to take all the points. Mini and VW better pull their fingers out.....

Not really, hirvonen hasn't retired this season and finished runner up to loeb on several of the gravel rally's this year. The powerstages are really helping hirvonen and especially ford this year.

[tfp]

Unfortunately, however this isn't really enough...

[danon]

Guess what's next...

X-pattern tests :s panner: front left / rear right - soft X front right / rear left - hard and vice versa :rotate:

[Bobcat]

I think this sums up the difference between Ford & Citroen. You could call it 'Thinking outside the box' - whatever it is, it's pretty clever, and once again they've left Ford with egg on their faces. Why haven't they thought of that?
MaxRally | News | Smeets praises team work for bold tyre choice (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/smeets_praises_team_work_for_bold_tyre_choice/)

[GigiGalliNo1]

in a way i am happy that m-sport is wasting money on slowson instead of the team....that way BMW and VW might push more money to be able to catch them since in the case of minis the difference with the fords is almost less than 0.5sec/km

I agree

[F1boat]

N.O.T., why is this intense dislike of Ford and its drivers? I am a Citroen fan, but I like all WRC guys, except maybe Quesnel.

[AndyRAC]

I want both M-Sport & Ford to continue in the WRC - but it's not working. I really wonder whether Ford should either take it in house or go to another prep company, while M-Sport continue with their customer programmes, Junior Academy, etc. It seems as if they're trying to do too much...
It might help if the budget from Ford was better.....and maybe that is the real problem.

[N.O.T]

the stage starts any moment now...battle for the win is over. but plenty more are continuing.

[N.O.T]

risk free run by the citroens just 1 second faster than his morning run is Loeb.

[N.O.T]

LOEB S. / ELENA D. "Still slippery on the gravel, but OK, no problem. We not in position to fight."

confirmation.

[N.O.T]

Ogier closes the gap...

[N.O.T]

Meeke wants that 4th position :D

[N.O.T]

Latvala fastest... long way to go for him.

[Bobcat]

I want both M-Sport & Ford to continue in the WRC - but it's not working. I really wonder whether Ford should either take it in house or go to another prep company, while M-Sport continue with their customer programmes, Junior Academy, etc. It seems as if they're trying to do too much...
It might help if the budget from Ford was better.....and maybe that is the real problem.
AGREE with you!

[Motorsportfun]

I want both M-Sport & Ford to continue in the WRC - but it's not working. I really wonder whether Ford should either take it in house or go to another prep company, while M-Sport continue with their customer programmes, Junior Academy, etc. It seems as if they're trying to do too much...
It might help if the budget from Ford was better.....and maybe that is the real problem.

I think M-Sport can do that much, because they have the structures, technology, etc.

But I totally agree with you: they need more budget to test more and so do a better developement, as reliability is a very big issue in these Fiestas!

[Bobcat]

I want both M-Sport & Ford to continue in the WRC - but it's not working. I really wonder whether Ford should either take it in house or go to another prep company, while M-Sport continue with their customer programmes, Junior Academy, etc. It seems as if they're trying to do too much...
It might help if the budget from Ford was better.....and maybe that is the real problem.
Maybe the real problem is also about the practical management skills of the Ford Abu Dhabi Team's manager who has only the nice castle and very many excuses for Ford.

The headquarters of Ford in Europe are in Cologne, about 100km from Trier, and this is also where the Fiesta is manufactured. Ford has invited some 300 guests to attend the Rallye Deutschland, would love to add a second win in 2011! To make the battle more interesting, Ford and Citroën have currently earned 77 WRC victories each to date and Germany is Mikko Hirvonen’s 100th world class rally driving a Ford.

M-Sport is bringing a huge failure and a great shame on all the people in Ford! :down:

[GigiGalliNo1]

Boo! Embarrassment!

[Daniel]

I want both M-Sport & Ford to continue in the WRC - but it's not working. I really wonder whether Ford should either take it in house or go to another prep company, while M-Sport continue with their customer programmes, Junior Academy, etc. It seems as if they're trying to do too much...
It might help if the budget from Ford was better.....and maybe that is the real problem.

IMHO the fact that Wilson hasn't got rid of his son years ago says to me that his priorities aren't 100% towards winning with his other drivers.

[AMSS]

The real problem might be as "easy" as above mentioned. Money. If we really think of it than everytime a manufactorer is pure manufactorer team all seems to go well. For instance Peugeot, Lancia,Audi and now Citroen. It`s really understandable that when all assets will go on the right things results will come. As they do not need to make a direct profit such as the likes of M-Sport, Prodrive,TTE(Ove Andersson motorsport) etc.
Ok these make quit good cars but they also aim in making a profit as a company.
Therefore there`s no doubt VW will be in the top. In my mind at least.

Anyway everything is f_ _ _ up at the blue Oval at the moment.

As I said earlier if they couldn`t win in Finland than it seems almost naive to aim at the top spot on tarmac at least in public. No way no how that will happen this year!

[N.O.T]

if you need 2.5 million to run a car full season then i guess dropping slowson off the wrc will bring a good sum to spend for development...but he doesn't....10 year plans are more important.

[Daniel]

if you need 2.5 million to run a car full season then i guess dropping slowson off the wrc will bring a good sum to spend for development...but he doesn't....10 year plans are more important.

I think you mean 15 year plans N.O.T :)

[N.O.T]

yeah...imagine all the millions spent on this nobody.....then some poeple have the nerve to ask for Ford to give more to M-sport...why to be spent on nobodies ??

[Daniel]

yeah...imagine all the millions spent on this nobody.....then some poeple have the nerve to ask for Ford to give more to M-sport...why to be spent on nobodies ??

Don't say that, you'll have Solitt on here saying "How many WRC teams have you run NOT???????" :p

[sollitt]

Daniel, if you really must persist with the childish unitelligent drivvle for which you are so renowned could you please at least refrain from misquoting or attributing comments to fellow contributors which they haven't themselves made.
Never, not ever, have I asserted that a contributor to this forum ought have 'run a WRC team' before being qualified to comment.

What I have said, and you may quote me on this, is that how a person spends their private resources is their business and theirs alone, and that the measurement of the value of that spend is also theirs to determine and nobody elses.

[N.O.T]

What I have said, and you may quote me on this, is that how a person spends their private resources is their business and theirs alone, and that the measurement of the value of that spend is also theirs to determine and nobody elses.

i agree with that 100%

but that doesn't mean we are not eligible to make any comment if the those money are wasted or put in good use...especially if they are spent on a sport with world public exposure.

[Daniel]

i agree with that 100%

but that doesn't mean we are not eligible to make any comment if the those money are wasted or put in good use...especially if they are spent on a sport with world public exposure.

Exactly. And although Malcolm can spend his money as he wishes, it would be far better spent on the team and not his son's fruitless "career" in the WRC.

[pete c]

so you have first hand knowledge of the funding of Mathew Wilson's rallying then?
not something i would have thought would be made avaliable to people out side of those concerned in the financial arrangement

[Daniel]

so you have first hand knowledge of the funding of Mathew Wilson's rallying then?
not something i would have thought would be made avaliable to people out side of those concerned in the financial arrangement

So if someone was to say "Malcolm is wasting the teams money on his son" they'd be wrong and if someone says "It's fair enought that he spends his own money on his son, but it's wasted" then they're also wrong because they don't know the exact financial arrangements :dozey: Some of you people have the most ridiculous and nonsensical arguments.

[Bobcat]

Gerard Quinn said: "This was the toughest rally I have experienced personally and for the team. Many of the issues were out of our control. But we need to put this weekend behind us and focus on the remaining four rounds and put the competitiveness of our car to the forefront by claiming some victories."

[Bobcat]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/128975-news-rumours-part-ii-302.html#post955537

[Barreis]

He'll have to pay again. :D

[N.O.T]

good for them

[I am evil Homer]

The Slowson argument is a side matter - he brings money from a personal sponsor so a car is paid for, albeit not as much as if you or I enquired! If another driver wants to do it, the prices of a Fiesta WRC are easy to find out and they can go do it sop this argument he's "taking a seat" are incorrect.

The M-Sport issue seems deeper and more complex. And we're talking everything here from the engine development through to the chassis and indeed the overall quality of the car itself - there seems to have been a lot of 'little' issues that have affected the car on every single event.

They are serious issues because if the Fiesta seems to underperfom vs both the DS3 and Mini (and potentially VW/Skoda) then fewer people will buy them and M-Sport will cease to operationally viable.

[Daniel]

The Slowson argument is a side matter - he brings money from a personal sponsor so a car is paid for, albeit not as much as if you or I enquired! If another driver wants to do it, the prices of a Fiesta WRC are easy to find out and they can go do it sop this argument he's "taking a seat" are incorrect.

By personal sponsor do you mean Stobart?

[N.O.T]

M-sport...ever heard of them ??

[Nornbugger]

so you have first hand knowledge of the funding of Mathew Wilson's rallying then?
not something i would have thought would be made avaliable to people out side of those concerned in the financial arrangement

with a post count of over 37500 I think its reasonable to think that Danial often posts about things he doesnt know everything about, no disrespect to him but he couldnt know that much could he?

[tfp]

Is it just me who thinks that Citroen still have the better car on tarmac? The powerstage said a lot, only 5km and loeb and ogier are around 3 seconds faster than the fords. I know they are 1st and 2nd in the championship now, but to pull 3 seconds on JML on tarmac on a 5km stage....?

[Barreis]

8 events in the row for citroen?!?

[bretddog]

Citroen has had a stronger engine than Ford on average for years, only on high speed gravel events have they been somewhat matched, or on extreme lose where it's not such a factor. Last rallies though, they have pulled out a greater performance advantage than ever seen before. So it's now not even funny to watch. M-Sport clearly needs help on the engine side, as with this job they're definitely not competitive. And instead focus they're resources on reliability, where they also have a lot to improve.

Still, there's just not enough grit and determination in the Ford or M-Sport camp. It's like they don't really want to win. Malcolm is just too happy and complacent about losing, too soft of a personality. Like if the team just give each other a big group hug, they'll probably win the next rally.

It's not only about lack of funds. But the biggest bottleneck is the engine, where also Mini will walk all over them if they don't sort that out.

[focus206]

Is it just me who thinks that Citroen still have the better car on tarmac? The powerstage said a lot, only 5km and loeb and ogier are around 3 seconds faster than the fords. I know they are 1st and 2nd in the championship now, but to pull 3 seconds on JML on tarmac on a 5km stage....?

I think that Citroen have everything better: car, team, drivers, strategy...
ok, the Fiesta isn't slower than the DS3, at least on gravel... but it's freaking unreliable... and the worst thing is that they don't seem so worried about.

[sollitt]

So if someone was to say "Malcolm is wasting the teams money on his son" they'd be wrong and if someone says "It's fair enought that he spends his own money on his son, but it's wasted" then they're also wrong because they don't know the exact financial arrangements :dozey: Some of you people have the most ridiculous and nonsensical arguments. There's an old adage "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". I believe, Daniel, that most of us can differentiate between the running of the WRC team, carrying the hopes & dreams of the fans, and the exploits of a privateer.
In respect of young Matt's programme; you don't know the size of the budget, you don't know where the money is coming from, you don't know whether the money would remain in the sport were Matt not competing, you don't know (if the money were to remain in the sport) how or where it would be spent, you don't know the goals and aspirations of the team, you don't know how the providers of the funding measure the success of their spend.
Without this knowledge you are not qualified to make assessment on 'wastage' and, without qualification, neither are you entitled.

Matt is a privateer, and those of us with a modicum of knowledge and sense know that privateers finish where they finish. They simply make up the numbers. And we're happy to let them do so whilst we concentrate on those influencing the championship.
It is your inability, or unwillingness, to do so that is "ridiculous and nonsensical".

[tfp]

There's an old adage "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". I believe, Daniel, that most of us can differentiate between the running of the WRC team, carrying the hopes & dreams of the fans, and the exploits of a privateer.
In respect of young Matt's programme; you don't know the size of the budget, you don't know where the money is coming from, you don't know whether the money would remain in the sport were Matt not competing, you don't know (if the money were to remain in the sport) how or where it would be spent, you don't know the goals and aspirations of the team, you don't know how the providers of the funding measure the success of their spend.
Without this knowledge you are not qualified to make assessment on 'wastage' and, without qualification, neither are you entitled.

Matt is a privateer, and those of us with a modicum of knowledge and sense know that privateers finish where they finish. They simply make up the numbers. And we're happy to let them do so whilst we concentrate on those influencing the championship.
It is your inability, or unwillingness, to do so that is "ridiculous and nonsensical".

Exactly. I cant understand why people would think that if Matt wasn't there, M sport would suddenly perform a lot better. The only thing that would change if he wasn't there is that there would be one less competitor, which is never a good thing.

[Bobcat]

Citroen has had a stronger engine than Ford on average for years, only on high speed gravel events have they been somewhat matched, or on extreme lose where it's not such a factor. Last rallies though, they have pulled out a greater performance advantage than ever seen before. So it's now not even funny to watch. M-Sport clearly needs help on the engine side, as with this job they're definitely not competitive. And instead focus they're resources on reliability, where they also have a lot to improve.

Still, there's just not enough grit and determination in the Ford or M-Sport camp. It's like they don't really want to win. Malcolm is just too happy and complacent about losing, too soft of a personality. Like if the team just give each other a big group hug, they'll probably win the next rally.

It's not only about lack of funds. But the biggest bottleneck is the engine, where also Mini will walk all over them if they don't sort that out.
I agree with you in many ways, I know that the main problem about the car is M-Sport's poor program for its engines. The engines in Ford's WRC and S2000 cars from PIPO Moteurs are unreliable, weak and deficient (the information from Ford's drivers) in comparison with the Citroen engine and the Oreca engine.

And maybe there is a problem in PIPO Moteurs...I think!

[Mirek]

But in the past the same Pipo company made one of the very best WRC engines in history (P206/307) and also a unique one for 306 Maxi. So they should have the abilities...

[AMSS]

But in the past the same Pipo company made one of the very best WRC engines in history (P206/307) and also a unique one for 306 Maxi. So they should have the abilities...

I agree, but as I was told in Neste rally by an old friend working at Ford, they know their behind in power and they think they have the solution for it but it`s too expensive!
What that solution is he refused to tell me ;)

[MJW]

I agree, but as I was told in Neste rally by an old friend working at Ford, they know their behind in power and they think they have the solution for it but it`s too expensive!
What that solution is he refused to tell me ;)

possibly to design and build n outright competion engine, like Citroen did rather than adapt a production based engine.I still think Oreca could work their magic on the current engine though.

[AndyRAC]

possibly to design and build n outright competion engine, like Citroen did rather than adapt a production based engine.I still think Oreca could work their magic on the current engine though.

Sounds simple enough - but how much will that cost?? £$£$£$£ or the lack of is the root problem for the Ford/M-Sport WRC effort.

[N.O.T]

the engine is the easiest component to blame...i think as a whole the team just isn't up to par with Citroen, from the car itself to the way the team works.

[Daniel]

Exactly. I cant understand why people would think that if Matt wasn't there, M sport would suddenly perform a lot better. The only thing that would change if he wasn't there is that there would be one less competitor, which is never a good thing.

Let's be reasonable here.

Firstly I think we can agree that Mathew probably isn't going anywhere in terms of his career? He's had the time to show some speed and sadly is hasn't worked out for him.

Secondly, the money has to come from somewhere, if it's coming from Stobart, then you could have another driver in there, if it's coming from Malcolm, then it could still be going towards making the team as a whole just that bit faster. There's talk of the engine's being down on power, perhaps the money spent on Mathew's campaign could somewhat bridge the difference to Citroen. The money is coming from somewhere and no matter how hard you argue, it could be going towards making the team faster or nurturing some more promising new talent.

Thirdly, if Mathew was indeed being groomed to take over the helm then great, he's got the driving part of the course over, lets get him into the team and have him doing something which is more relevant to what he'll be doing in the future.

I can understand what Malcolm is doing, as some who believe it or not was once someone's son, it's nice to have your dreams and wishes fulfilled.

The only other person in Malcolm's position who I can recall having his son in the WRC was Cesare Fiorio with his son Alessandro or Alex as he was better known, but Cesare had the luxury of being at the top. Also, look at Alex's results and you'll see that he was no also ran RallyBase (http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?type=profile&driverid=294) , not a top top driver but someone who was quite often near the top and in an age which was highly competitive too :)

At the end of the day Malcolm is free to do what he wants, and I'm only trying to say that there are better ways to use your resources and sending your son on a jolly when you're a distant second and Mini are breathing down your neck with VW soon to join the fray perhaps isn't the best way to do things. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[AMSS]

the engine is the easiest component to blame...i think as a whole the team just isn't up to par with Citroen, from the car itself to the way the team works.

A wise man once said,
you start by having the best engine and than you can adapt the rest that man was Enzo Ferrari...

[Bobcat]

But in the past the same Pipo company made one of the very best WRC engines in history (P206/307) and also a unique one for 306 Maxi. So they should have the abilities...
Still, I think it is important to note that the history is only part of the story anyway.

[Bobcat]

I agree, but as I was told in Neste rally by an old friend working at Ford, they know their behind in power and they think they have the solution for it but it`s too expensive!
What that solution is he refused to tell me ;)
But the Fiesta S2000 engine (from PIPO Moteurs) also has less torque and power than S2000 competitors. In fact, the problem isn't just the poor 1.6 WRC engine with its production engine block!