Ford ends M-Sport run in WRC?

[AMSS]

I am not that aware of the differences between the S2000 cars but a big step forwards was taken recently when they got the upgraded kit for the S2000 Fiesta engine which immediately saw an improvement in speed also.
One of Hänninens mechanics was sure that the Fiesta NOW has even more hp. than the Fabia. But I can`t say for sure, maybe Mirek knows better??..

[dimviii]

Another point about engines,is ecu programming.Power/torque is not coming alone from the engine builder..Really can t see the reason they blame Pipo when the engine is actually reliable.
Citroen decided to use an engine from blank paper for a reason.They just saw that from the given displacement (1,6 lit) they wouldn gain the maximum from their current engines.Ford instead choose the cheap way.
In Greece we used to say that....'' with farts you can t paint eggs''

[tfp]

Another point about engines,is ecu programming.Power/torque is not coming alone from the engine builder..Really can t see the reason they blame Pipo when the engine is actually reliable.
Citroen decided to use an engine from blank paper for a reason.They just saw that from the given displacement (1,6 lit) they wouldn gain the maximum from their current engines.Ford instead choose the cheap way.
In Greece we used to say that....'' with farts you can t paint eggs''

Ha Ha Ha!!! :D :roll: :D

[Bobcat]

Really can t see the reason they blame Pipo when the engine is actually reliable. The engine isn't reliable. Latvala’s engine dropped onto three cylinders in Germany. Wilson said that they changed the fuel injectors, ignition coils and spark plugs.

[logic]

The engine isn't reliable. Latvala’s engine dropped onto three cylinders in Germany. Wilson said that they changed the fuel injectors, ignition coils and spark plugs.

Normally when a racing engine drop a cylinder it does not recover.

If an injector drops out you could damage the piston because of the heat build up in the combustion chamber .

If the spark drops out the fuel washes the bores and causes the bores to score and loose compression .

I say it did fairly well to continue

[Daniel]

I see a few people agree with my statement :) Thanks for that :)

[Bobcat]

MaxRally | News | Mini speed surprised Hirvonen in Germany (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/mini_speed_surprised_hirvonen_in_germany/)

[Bobcat]

One of Hänninens mechanics was sure that the Fiesta NOW has even more hp. than the Fabia. Maybe more horsepower (personally I don't suppose so) but surely less torque!

[dimviii]

The engine isn't reliable. Latvala’s engine dropped onto three cylinders in Germany. Wilson said that they changed the fuel injectors, ignition coils and spark plugs.
Engine builder is not responsible for spark plugs,fuel injectors if they fail in a rally.
That is M sport responsibility.

[bassist]

Let's be reasonable here.

Firstly I think we can agree that Mathew probably isn't going anywhere in terms of his career? He's had the time to show some speed and sadly is hasn't worked out for him.

Secondly, the money has to come from somewhere, if it's coming from Stobart, then you could have another driver in there, if it's coming from Malcolm, then it could still be going towards making the team as a whole just that bit faster. There's talk of the engine's being down on power, perhaps the money spent on Mathew's campaign could somewhat bridge the difference to Citroen. The money is coming from somewhere and no matter how hard you argue, it could be going towards making the team faster or nurturing some more promising new talent.

Thirdly, if Mathew was indeed being groomed to take over the helm then great, he's got the driving part of the course over, lets get him into the team and have him doing something which is more relevant to what he'll be doing in the future.

I can understand what Malcolm is doing, as some who believe it or not was once someone's son, it's nice to have your dreams and wishes fulfilled.

The only other person in Malcolm's position who I can recall having his son in the WRC was Cesare Fiorio with his son Alessandro or Alex as he was better known, but Cesare had the luxury of being at the top. Also, look at Alex's results and you'll see that he was no also ran RallyBase (http://www.rallybase.nl/index.php?type=profile&driverid=294) , not a top top driver but someone who was quite often near the top and in an age which was highly competitive too :)

At the end of the day Malcolm is free to do what he wants, and I'm only trying to say that there are better ways to use your resources and sending your son on a jolly when you're a distant second and Mini are breathing down your neck with VW soon to join the fray perhaps isn't the best way to do things. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Well said that man. I think Malcoms support of his son has proved very loyal, but fruitless. He just hasnt got the pace, and is a waste of resources that Ford could utilise more productively.Put PG in the car for the rest of the season, surely he`s worth a punt!

[Barreis]

Black colour of fiesta in testing did good results in race. :D

[tfp]

Black colour of fiesta in testing did good results in race. :D

Maybe the black colour gives it a few more horsepower :D ;)

[Bobcat]

Sounds simple enough - but how much will that cost?? £$£$£$£ or the lack of is the root problem for the Ford/M-Sport WRC effort.
Ford has a all-new competion "£$£$£$£" engine in NASCAR. The lack of is the root problem only for the Ford WRC effort with the M-Sport "£$£$£$£" shopping centre.

[AndyRAC]

Ford has a all-new competion "£$£$£$£" engine in NASCAR. The lack of is the root problem only for the Ford WRC effort with the M-Sport "£$£$£$£" shopping centre.

Maybe they view spending money in NASCAR more beneficial than spending money in the WRC. NASCAR is huge in the US, giving fans, sponsors, etc everything they want.
Saying that, I think the WRC money comes from Ford of Europe. Maybe they don't think spending huge amounts is beneficial to the Ford brand.

[Bobcat]

If they don't think spending huge amounts is beneficial to the global One Ford brand in the global WRC, then something is wrong.

[driveace]

"M" Sport is a private team contracted by Ford to prepare and run a Ford rally car,in WRC events.The money comes from Abu Dhabi for the "A Team",and Stobart and others for the "B Team".Malcolm has obviously secured sponsorship for the "B Team", from Stobart,who transport all the teams cars.Its a private deal,with Malcolm,AND he has to make a "Profit",as every business has to.Yes Mathew is lacking in results,but he is in a "Private team",with his father as Managing director.
Citroen is a "Factory Team" with lots of dosh to throw at the sport,and the Citroen team,are in FULL control .At "M" sport,Malcolm is MD .
BUT they are beginning to look silly now as another "Private Team" Prodrive,are on the "Pace "with a new car(The Mini),and Miko,could not pull back the lost time in Germany from Dani Sorso ,in the Prodrive Mini !!!

[Bobcat]

MaxRally | News | Ogier seeks contract clarification from Citroen (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/ogier_seeks_contract_clarification_from_citroen/)

Ford team principal Malcolm Wilson is interested.

“My priority is to get the Ford agreement sorted,” said Wilson, “but, yes, I would talk to him. [Citroen’s] It’s not an easy position to be in, but I would be able to manage Ogier. I’ve seen this before and they don’t come much harder to manage than Carlos [Sainz] and Colin [McRae].”

[Cloverleaf]

I’ve seen this before and they don’t come much harder to manage than Carlos [Sainz] and Colin [McRae].”
Yeah. With a great success!

Leaving Citroen would be the worst thing to happen to Ogier. Fiesta is not as good as the DS3 and beating Loeb with an inferior car is not "that" easy.

[Bobcat]

BTW, Carl Edwards re-signed with Ford/Roush Fenway Racing, the new deal is reportedly worth over $40 million (over 27.5 million Euros). The rumour mill at Rally Finland suggested that VW have offered Loeb 15 million Euros to drive for them (more than double what he currently earns).

[Plan9]

Would Ogier consider Mini or take a years out for VW? It may be far fetched but at least he would not have to worry about being number 2. If VW got him I doubt that they would then have any reason to hire Petter Solberg.

[N.O.T]

Ogier will stay to Citroen until his contract ends.

[tfp]

Ogier will stay to Citroen until his contract ends.

But will he be willing to play second fiddle to Loeb for another 2 years(or however long ogier is under contract for?), a-la dani sordo? If he stays, he will most probably be unhappy there. Which sets off another debate in Motorsport forums :)

[N.O.T]

no he will not be second fidle, the contract of both sebs dictates equal status until someone gets a safe lead in the championship.

[Bobcat]

no he will not be second fidle, the contract of both sebs dictates equal status until someone gets a safe lead in the championship.
“But what I cannot accept is that, in making his contract, he receives some guarantees. That, I cannot accept. If there is a new policy of team orders..." said Ogier.

[N.O.T]

everything was clariffied... Ogier will stay up to 2013 for sure.

[bretddog]

no he will not be second fidle, the contract of both sebs dictates equal status until someone gets a safe lead in the championship.
..Is no more than your belief.

Jean-Marc Gales - "We did a lot of things to make him stay, to make the association last longer. ... We will make sure he feels at ease in the future."

World Rally Championship - News - Gales: Loeb staying is hugely significant (http://wrc.com/news/gales-loeb-staying-is-hugely-significant/?fid=15263)

[N.O.T]

No...Ogier until 2013. everything is sorted.

[N.O.T]

I think its more interesting to see if Wilson manages to close the Deal with Ford. I hope Ford goes solo as Citroen and VW or hire someone who cares about Rallyings most historic manufacturer far more than his pocket and 20 year plans of hopeless talents.

[Daniel]

I think its more interesting to see if Wilson manages to close the Deal with Ford. I hope Ford goes solo as Citroen and VW or hire someone who cares about Rallyings most historic manufacturer far more than his pocket and 20 year plans of hopeless talents.

Since when did M-Sport manage Lancia's WRC campaign? I didn't realise they even had one :D

[N.O.T]

Lancias history in the sport compared to Fords is just a pebble in the sand....I did not say succefull or anything like that.

The commitment Ford has shown is something we all must bow to...and the fact that they stay so faithful despite they have achieved so little is even more admirable.

[Daniel]

Lancias history in the sport compared to Fords is just a pebble in the sand....I did not say succefull or anything like that.

The commitment Ford has shown is something we all must bow to...and the fact that they stay so faithful despite they have achieved so little is even more admirable.

Greg? Is that you? :D

I seriously disagree ;) I think there have been large periods where Ford have just been competing and treading water, IMHO this doesn't constitute a long and illustrious history. To be honest I am far more in awe of a company like Peugeot, Citroen or Lancia who plays to win and if they don't get the results they want, then they leave rather than embarassing themselves further :)

[N.O.T]

depends how you see things i guess...some people would say that if you leave when not winning then you are a quitter and bad loser. After all there is the saying

"Winners never quit and quitters never win" of course we also need to now what happens in the case where Losers never quit, in which category Fords is a class of their own.

[bretddog]

No...Ogier until 2013. everything is sorted.
Ogier's contract is a year old, that is no news.

Whether Loeb has clauses in his new contract protecting his driver priority better than Ogier is a totally different matter.

Stop dictating and spamming your views. We do have memory and know well what is your opinion.

[N.O.T]

Whether Loeb has clauses in his new contract protecting his driver priority better than Ogier is a totally different matter.



he doesn't have such clauses, because Ogiers contract does not allow them. As i said it similar to Sordos contract, they start both equal, if anyone gets a safe lead then team orders MUST be followed (that is the reason Ogier was allowed to win rallies at the start of the season in the first place). If you read Ingrasias interview you can see that.

The managers main focus is to obtain better deals for their customers, so its normal to stir things up. But there is little things you can do once your signature is there and you are not the manufacturer. You will see in Australia everyone will be one happy family once more because they cannot do otherwise.

[bretddog]

he doesn't have such clauses, because Ogiers contract does not allow them. As i said it similar to Sordos contract, they start both equal, if anyone gets a safe lead then team orders MUST be followed (that is the reason Ogier was allowed to win rallies at the start of the season in the first place). If you read Ingrasias interview you can see that.

The managers main focus is to obtain better deals for their customers, so its normal to stir things up. But there is little things you can do once your signature is there and you are not the manufacturer. You will see in Australia everyone will be one happy family once more because they cannot do otherwise.

You sound not to have much corporate experience. Writing contracts is not an arithmetic operation. Terms can be superseded, made void or be violated. The terms for deviation of a specific clause may then be effected.

The fact is;

Sordo was a sweeper.
Ogier was a sweeper in 2010.
Ogier was not a sweeper in 2011.
Quesnels 2011 agenda and abuse of the contract conditions signed in 2010 formed demands in Loebs new contract, valid from 2012, dictated by PSA board management.

[N.O.T]

about the driver facts, the actual facts are different but we went through that extensively so no point of recycling. Try to see them without any favouritism towards your nations top driver.

About the contracts i have some experience but i don't want to go to details, its sufficient to know how things really work especially in international ones. the things you say stand but very rarely worth the trouble do the things you say (violate,made void ects) especially in cases where there are not many realistic option for both sides as alternatives.

We will what happens in the future.. then we can come and say "I TOLD YOU SO" depending who is right.

[Bobcat]

Ford: Keine Zukunft für Hirvonen?*:: rallye-magazin.de (http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/wm/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2011/08/22/ford-keine-zukunft-fuer-hirvonen/index.html)

[AndyRAC]

Were Ford are different; they don't appear to be fully committed to the WRC. There was no doubt about Lancia or even Toyota. They may say they are, but they need to put the £$£$£ down.
Citroen have overtaken them in, 12 years, is it? Ford have been an almost constant since it started in 1973.....

[Daniel]

Were Ford are different; they don't appear to be fully committed to the WRC. There was no doubt about Lancia or even Toyota. They may say they are, but they need to put the £$£$£ down.
Citroen have overtaken them in, 12 years, is it? Ford have been an almost constant since it started in 1973.....

Yup. But to be fair with Citroen these days there isn't an awful lot of competition. I think Peugeot going from debuting in 1999 with the 206 WRC to WDC and manufacturers titles in 2000 was pretty freaking awesome considering the competition at the time.

[Bobcat]

World Rally Championship - News - Hirvonen aims for Ford extension (http://www.wrc.com/news/hirvonen-aims-for-ford-extension/?fid=15285)

“I’m still not sure what the situation is about Ford’s commitment at the moment, but I have always had a good time with the team, so I’d certainly like to stay,” the 31-year-old told Motorsport News.


Latvala said: “If Ford is continuing I will be here. The main focus is for Ford to get the contract to carry on [in the world championship].”

[AndyRAC]

Doesn't show much ambition, does it? Why would you want to stay in a team that continually fails...??

[N.O.T]

what does that mean ? what contract ? Ford with M-sport ? or Ford with the WRC ?

[Barreis]

Relax, we'll still be on the forum. :D

[OldF]

what does that mean ? what contract ? Ford with M-sport ? or Ford with the WRC?

Ford with the WRC

[Bobcat]

I think Wilson[M-Sport] with Ford. ;)


“My priority is to get the Ford agreement sorted,” said Wilson... MaxRally | News | Ogier seeks contract clarification from Citroen (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/ogier_seeks_contract_clarification_from_citroen/)

[Miika]

The longer Ford waits with their decision, the more difficult the situation will be for the Ford Finns, if they solely count on Ford continuing. If Ford drops the axe on M-Sport around December, it might be a bit late for the Ford Finns to start negotiating with VW for the seats, assuming VW is making their signings this year. But if VW are also waiting for Ford´s decision then no biggies. And if I had to pick a Ford Finn for VW, it would be Latvala, not Hirvonen.

[wildsir]

Doesn't show much ambition, does it? Why would you want to stay in a team that continually fails...??

Very true.. I really don't understand that mentality. But.. Fear not thou trusty finns.. Wilson will find a away to continue without the support of Ford Motor Company... Leaving them even less competitive than now.. but sure.. Everyone is still making money.. that's the real target.. not winning championships

[Plan9]

i hope this is not the last season for Mikko. Though I have no idea why he has lost the spark he had in 2008-9.

[Daniel]

i hope this is not the last season for Mikko. Though I have no idea why he has lost the spark he had in 2008-9.

He had a spark back then? For as long as I've lived in the UK (been here since June 2006) he has had the look of a guy who was in awe of Loeb.

[N.O.T]

loeb is responsible for Hirvonens mentality...he ate his soul back in 2009 rally G.B.

Imagine you are young and talented and you have 1 chance to become a true legend...to beat the guy who run over legends like Gronholm, Makinen, Burns, Sainz Mcrae and he is the best driver the sport has ever seen...your name would be a household name everywhere in your village and you would be known as the guy who slay the dragon and gave rally fans a hope about a future with actual competition in the sport, and you have that chance on roads you know very well and have a good feeling on.

and then here comes Loeb and takes 14 seconds on single stage when you went flat out and gave nothing away...not many people would handle such a phychological violation.

[AndyRAC]

i hope this is not the last season for Mikko. Though I have no idea why he has lost the spark he had in 2008-9.

He still didn't win many Rallies though...lots of 2nd & 3rd places.....2009 was more to do with Loeb having a mid season slump.

[N.O.T]

He still didn't win many Rallies though...lots of 2nd & 3rd places.....2009 was more to do with Loeb having a mid season slump.

Loeb was saying that year that he had to push harder to beat Hirvonen than he did against Gronholm, of course miko had a chance due to Loebs offs/mistakes/disqualifications but Loeb is a phenomenon and back then we has at a good age as well so i don't think anyone would have a chance without Loeb letting them to have one.

[Arwel Davies]

loeb is responsible for Hirvonens mentality...he ate his soul back in 2009 rally G.B.

Imagine you are young and talented and you have 1 chance to become a true legend...to beat the guy who run over legends like Gronholm, Makinen, Burns, Sainz Mcrae and he is the best driver the sport has ever seen...your name would be a household name everywhere in your village and you would be known as the guy who slay the dragon and gave rally fans a hope about a future with actual competition in the sport, and you have that chance on roads you know very well and have a good feeling on.

and then here comes Loeb and takes 14 seconds on single stage when you went flat out and gave nothing away...not many people would handle such a phychological violation.

Thats true. I was in the Ford camp on Friday evening and the look on Mikko's face said it all. He tried his best and yes on the Sunday he started taking time back from Loeb but was that a case of too little to late or Loeb easing off a bit or both. The jump in Port Talbot stage was balls out commitment and maybe a bit of desperation from Mikko.. it was spectacular but also ended any chance of a win when he landed and dis-lodged the bonnet which forced him to stop in the stage.

Can he replicate his 2009 performance? I'm not sure. I think that was his best shot and now I think Jari Matti is the main Ford threat to Citroen.

[focus206]

Thats true. I was in the Ford camp on Friday evening and the look on Mikko's face said it all. He tried his best and yes on the Sunday he started taking time back from Loeb but was that a case of too little to late or Loeb easing off a bit or both. The jump in Port Talbot stage was balls out commitment and maybe a bit of desperation from Mikko.. it was spectacular but also ended any chance of a win when he landed and dis-lodged the bonnet which forced him to stop in the stage.

Can he replicate his 2009 performance? I'm not sure. I think that was his best shot and now I think Jari Matti is the main Ford threat to Citroen.

True, Rally GB 2009 had a big negative impact on Mikko. But, for what I remember, Mikko started pushing (I mean going flat out, 100%) a bit too late in Rally GB, he "waited" too much, maybe hoping for a Loeb's mistake.

[Daniel]

Thats true. I was in the Ford camp on Friday evening and the look on Mikko's face said it all. He tried his best and yes on the Sunday he started taking time back from Loeb but was that a case of too little to late or Loeb easing off a bit or both. The jump in Port Talbot stage was balls out commitment and maybe a bit of desperation from Mikko.. it was spectacular but also ended any chance of a win when he landed and dis-lodged the bonnet which forced him to stop in the stage.

Can he replicate his 2009 performance? I'm not sure. I think that was his best shot and now I think Jari Matti is the main Ford threat to Citroen.

But Ford needs two consistent drivers to mount a proper challenge.

[Bobcat]

But Ford needs two consistent drivers to mount a proper challenge. But they need the new cars without reliability problems.

[focus206]

But they need the new cars without reliability problems.

For sure this is the first thing they have to think about... With the current car, neither Loeb could win the championship (maybe...)

[Daniel]

But they need the new cars without reliability problems.

With the best car in the world Hirvonen will never be a champion, never.

[Plan9]

I think the car is also to blame. The Focus was like 3 seconds behind most of 2008-10 season in comparison to Citroen. I have a feeling that Mikko has gone into "Hibernation" and is just counting down the months till Loeb leaves and he can flourish. I am unsure if this will now happen as there are other men that are hungry now.

[tfp]

With the best car in the world Hirvonen will never be a champion, never.

:down:
I bet Malcolm wilson is kicking himself for not using team orders in acropolis that year.
Not to mention Rautenbachs quarter of an hour mid-stage sleep in Estonia(Thanks, Citroen :s mokin :)

[focus206]

:down:
I bet Malcolm wilson is kicking himself for not using team orders in acropolis that year.
Not to mention Rautenbachs quarter of an hour mid-stage sleep in Estonia(Thanks, Citroen :s mokin :)

You mean Poland?

[tfp]

You mean Poland?

Yes, Poland, was just testing you :laugh:

[Plan9]

Could Latvala handle being a team leader? He has always struck me as too mercurial to lead an organization (event if it is M-Sport).

[Jake Stephens]

With the best car in the world Hirvonen will never be a champion, never.

+1

[Bobcat]

FordWRC's Channel - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/FordWRC?gl=US&hl=en)

The new team HQ is the home 14 engineers, 5 coordinators, 2 medical/physio personnel, 2 chefs, 5 kitchen assistants, 4 front-of-house staff, 2 PR personnel, Malcom Wilson and Gerard Quinn…. a total of 36 people.

Drivers and co-drivers not mentioned. Maybe they sleep in a tent outside the HQ.

This is little more interesting.

Fast moving goods – M-Sports global logistics challenge (http://www.rallysportlive.com/2011/08/fast-moving-goods-m-sports-global-logistics-challenge/)
WRC - Ford's new Rally HQ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgzdAw86Q4U)

I think there was no testing, no significant steps forward in the engine's development. :mad:

[N.O.T]

I really cannot see any meaning in this construction....weren't trailers enough ?? ...this thing although really spectacular to see, requires too much work to setup and then disassemble and i doubt it offers anything more than the normal trailers.....

[Red bull]

For sure this is the first thing they have to think about... With the current car, neither Loeb could win the championship (maybe...)

Its better that they stay...if they pull out then who will citroen bully in the wrc?

[focus206]

Its better that they stay...if they pull out then who will citroen bully in the wrc?

Mini? :D
Jokes aside, I hope they stay, but with a competitive car... but the problem is that they don't seem too much worried about the fact that they won just one round out of 9 of this year championship, and they don't seem to plan to change big things on the car for the next year :rolleyes:

[tfp]

Its better that they stay...if they pull out then who will citroen bully in the wrc?

How about Petter Solberg?

[N.O.T]

is peter solberg a manufacturer ??

[Red bull]

How about Petter Solberg?

citroen prefer to humiliate the fords more than solberg in fact after the factory 1-2 positions they want solberg to fill the podium to prevent malcom from punching in air.

[OldF]

Could Latvala handle being a team leader? He has always struck me as too mercurial to lead an organization (event if it is M-Sport).

He was a second lieutenant in the army so he has some kind of leadership experience.

[Barreis]

How can that be with his female movements and speech?!

[OldF]

I think there was no testing, no significant steps forward in the engine's development. :mad:

I think they can’t do some much about the engine this year anymore. Ford had to use one joker when they homologated new gearbox and rear diff casings because the casings was cracking.

2011 FIA World Rally Championship Sporting Regulations (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/1B72438CF9C8C75CC12578D800508E2E/$FILE/WRC%20Regs&Appx%202011_v2.pdf)

64.4 RESTRICTION OF ENGINE PARTS DEVELOPMENT
As development of the engine is controlled, a box of the parts listed below will be sealed by the FIA
together with the registered Manufacturer or WRC Team and placed in a location acceptable to both parties. This will be carried out at the latest before the 1/05/2011.

[tfp]

He was a second lieutenant in the army so he has some kind of leadership experience.

Really?

Rally drivers never cease to amaze me at what they have done in the past - isn't Ogier a proffessional skiing instructor? :)

[AMSS]

How can that be with his female movements and speech?!
You hit the nail right on the head there... :)

[Barreis]

Now we know why he went to the army. Bad lieutenant. :D

[Bobcat]

I think they can’t do some much about the engine this year anymore. Ford had to use one joker when they homologated new gearbox and rear diff casings because the casings was cracking.

2011 FIA World Rally Championship Sporting Regulations (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/1B72438CF9C8C75CC12578D800508E2E/$FILE/WRC%20Regs&Appx%202011_v2.pdf)

64.4 RESTRICTION OF ENGINE PARTS DEVELOPMENT
As development of the engine is controlled, a box of the parts listed below will be sealed by the FIA
together with the registered Manufacturer or WRC Team and placed in a location acceptable to both parties. This will be carried out at the latest before the 1/05/2011.
Stupid, these rules are suppressing the competitive balance, competitive environment in the WRC.

Good for you, Citroen. :mad:

[N.O.T]

the rules are same for everyone.

[OldF]

Really?

Rally drivers never cease to amaze me at what they have done in the past - isn't Ogier a proffessional skiing instructor? :)

To clarify, it was not his profession but during the compulsory military service.

[Mitch555]

I think M-Sport also need to realise they need to do something with the tarmac rounds. You obviously can't change the two works drivers, however, why doesn't Ford go after a tarmac expert or two, give them some decent testing etc. in order to put pressure on Loeb and Ogier? There are plenty of Europeans who would jump at the opportunity if they had to find some funding.

Luca Rossetti
Giandomenico Basso
Bryan Bouffier
Stephane Sarrazin
Thierry Neuville (who will probably be poached by Citroen sooner or later)
Cedric Robert
Alex Bengue
Hans Weijs
Vaclav Pech
Freddy Loix
Eugene Donnelly ;)

The list goes on! They could even be used to ease point scoring pressure on Jari-Matti, who could possibly give Loeb & Ogier a bit of a shock.

[xavier]

I think M-Sport also need to realise they need to do something with the tarmac rounds. You obviously can't change the two works drivers, however, why doesn't Ford go after a tarmac expert or two, give them some decent testing etc. in order to put pressure on Loeb and Ogier? There are plenty of Europeans who would jump at the opportunity if they had to find some funding.

Luca Rossetti
Giandomenico Basso
Bryan Bouffier
Stephane Sarrazin
Thierry Neuville (who will probably be poached by Citroen sooner or later)
Cedric Robert
Alex Bengue
Hans Weijs
Vaclav Pech
Freddy Loix
Eugene Donnelly ;)

The list goes on! They could even be used to ease point scoring pressure on Jari-Matti, who could possibly give Loeb & Ogier a bit of a shock.

IMO, JML or Mikko are far better on tarmac than any of these drivers.

[Barreis]

F.Duval could do better then current two drivers with 4 events program.

[focus206]

F.Duval could do better then current two drivers with 4 events program.
In a 4 events program, Duval would crash at least 2 times...

[N.O.T]

I think M-Sport also need to realise they need to do something with the tarmac rounds. You obviously can't change the two works drivers, however, why doesn't Ford go after a tarmac expert or two, give them some decent testing etc. in order to put pressure on Loeb and Ogier? There are plenty of Europeans who would jump at the opportunity if they had to find some funding.

Luca Rossetti
Giandomenico Basso
Bryan Bouffier
Stephane Sarrazin
Thierry Neuville (who will probably be poached by Citroen sooner or later)
Cedric Robert
Alex Bengue
Hans Weijs
Vaclav Pech
Freddy Loix
Eugene Donnelly ;)

The list goes on! They could even be used to ease point scoring pressure on Jari-Matti, who could possibly give Loeb & Ogier a bit of a shock.

these guys are pretty good for the IRC but have no skills at all to challenge anyone at the WRC.

And neuville has nothing to offer to citroen...far too slow on every surface apart from his countires and i do not think Citroen will pay someone for 1 event.

[fastboy]

I think Latvala will go and win Rally Spain.He will build up a 20 second lead that he will then defend on tarmac.He is better than most people give him credit for,Germany was his first rally on tarmac in a car that was easy to drive. Mikko on the other hand is a dead loss.

[wildsir]

I think Latvala will go and win Rally Spain.He will build up a 20 second lead that he will then defend on tarmac.He is better than most people give him credit for,Germany was his first rally on tarmac in a car that was easy to drive. Mikko on the other hand is a dead loss.

you still hung over from saturday night?

[GigiGalliNo1]

Haha

[gravelman]

I think M-Sport also need to realise they need to do something with the tarmac rounds. You obviously can't change the two works drivers, however, why doesn't Ford go after a tarmac expert or two, give them some decent testing etc. in order to put pressure on Loeb and Ogier? There are plenty of Europeans who would jump at the opportunity if they had to find some funding.

Luca Rossetti
Giandomenico Basso
Bryan Bouffier
Stephane Sarrazin
Thierry Neuville (who will probably be poached by Citroen sooner or later)
Cedric Robert
Alex Bengue
Hans Weijs
Vaclav Pech
Freddy Loix
Eugene Donnelly ;)

The list goes on! They could even be used to ease point scoring pressure on Jari-Matti, who could possibly give Loeb & Ogier a bit of a shock.


Haha, the Genie?? Oh he wont see a WRC car of any type for a while, but by Jesus he can drive!! Basso would be a great move, but unless Ford Italy came in it won't happen, sadly its not like the Gp A days when cars could be sourced, ran and built away from the works teams and almost exactly the same spec. I think the most likely candidate will be Tanak, if anything will happen. The 3rd driver rule needs to be reintroduced badly

[AndyRAC]

Haha, the Genie?? Oh he wont see a WRC car of any type for a while, but by Jesus he can drive!! Basso would be a great move, but unless Ford Italy came in it won't happen, sadly its not like the Gp A days when cars could be sourced, ran and built away from the works teams and almost exactly the same spec. I think the most likely candidate will be Tanak, if anything will happen. The 3rd driver rule needs to be reintroduced badly

Another of my bugbears about current WRC; This should be still able to happen. Why should M-Sport be the only place to go for a Fiesta RS WRCar?? It's plain wrong....another reason why the WRC is struggling.

[Barreis]

+1

[driveace]

I am told by a Finnish rally driver I know that there are MANY problems with the MSport Fiesta,and he knows M H and JML well

[N.O.T]

what kind of problems ?? because you do not need an insider to tell you that a team who hasn't won the last 7 events has problems......

more details please.

[tfp]

I am told by a Finnish rally driver I know that there are MANY problems with the MSport Fiesta,and he knows M H and JML well

I wonder why they dont do something about it then? You're not the first to say this on the forum, someone(cant remember the name, sorry) who knew an insider from M-sport said they could give the engine more power, but were restricted by lack of funding....Its kinda frustrating watching M sport come second all the time in a two manufacturer motorsport :s mokin:

[steve_spackman]

PSA having a team in both the WRC and IRC, meaning they have more data to pass around. More data means better testing , that leads to the podium. Ford should take note of this....

[denkimi]

In a 4 events program, Duval would crash at least 2 times...
but he would very likely be on the podium on the other 2 events, competing with the citroens.

[focus206]

but he would very likely be on the podium on the other 2 events, competing with the citroens.

only if the other 2 events are on tarmac...

[N.O.T]

but he would very likely be on the podium on the other 2 events, competing with the citroens.

not anymore...far too many hamburgers.

[denkimi]

only if the other 2 events are on tarmac...
off course. but that's exactly why someone would want to hire duval.


not anymore...far too many hamburgers.
I presume you've never heard of dieting and exercising? excessive fat can be worked, a lack of talent always slows you down.

[N.O.T]

I have heard of those things...Duval hasn't, and besides please inform yourself about some stuff before putting names on the table...Duval is a car saleman not a rally driver anymore.

[Franky]

One thing is clear, the third driver rule has to be in the rule book again.

[N.O.T]

that would make rich manufacturers even stronger...

[Franky]

But then again it would allow the weaker ones take specialist drivers to try to catch and fight with the leading punch.

[N.O.T]

with what money ?? and those funds would be cut from development.....

and for sure the best drivers would be hired by the richer manufacturers....

[Franky]

with what money ?? and those funds would be cut from development.....


Please make a calculation to support that view.

[denkimi]

I have heard of those things...Duval hasn't, and besides please inform yourself about some stuff before putting names on the table...Duval is a car saleman not a rally driver anymore.
If you would have read everything instead of only what you want to read, you would have seen that I didn't put the name of Duval on the table. But while it is I'll defend it, since it is my believe that he was en probably still is the only driver that is as fast of faster than Loeb on asphalt. Too bad Citroen ruined his career because he's doesn't have a French passport.

[N.O.T]

He ruined his own career with crashing and burning cars, changing co-drivers because he was not paying attention to them, he acted like a spoiled little kid ects ects and Duval last time he competed wasn't able to beat the IRC guys...how is he faster than Loeb ??

it is good to have a favourite driver but please face the facts.

[denkimi]

He ruined his own career with crashing and burning cars, changing co-drivers because he was not paying attention to them, he acted like a spoiled little kid ects ects and

And how exactly is ogier (or latvala) different than that? Besides the fact that he is allowed to win due to his French passport of course.



Duval last time he competed wasn't able to beat the IRC guys...how is he faster than Loeb ??

Than I must have missed a rally. Sorry, I truly believed his last rally was germany 2010. Where he, with a crappy ford, after not having driven for more than a year, en almost without testing was 5th before crashing.
And how he's faster? I don't know. I know he's at least as fast in germany, although he was never allowed to win.

Perhaps you can explain to me why citroen, in you opinion, payed duval to come over from ford, just to throw him out of the team and replace him with sordo after his really good results at the end of the 2005 season? I would find it very interesting to read your thoughts about that situation.



it is good to have a favourite driver but please face the facts.
The same could be said about you. I'm a fan of loeb, but the way you adore him and citroen is a bit over the top. He is definitely one of the best drivers in history en maybe even the single best driver, but we have to face facts. Its only because he's French that he was able to achieve what he did.

[tfp]

And how exactly is ogier (or latvala) different than that? Besides the fact that he is allowed to win due to his French passport of course.


Than I must have missed a rally. Sorry, I truly believed his last rally was germany 2010. Where he, with a crappy ford, after not having driven for more than a year, en almost without testing was 5th before crashing.
And how he's faster? I don't know. I know he's at least as fast in germany, although he was never allowed to win.

Perhaps you can explain to me why citroen, in you opinion, payed duval to come over from ford, just to throw him out of the team and replace him with sordo after his really good results at the end of the 2005 season? I would find it very interesting to read your thoughts about that situation.


The same could be said about you. I'm a fan of loeb, but the way you adore him and citroen is a bit over the top. He is definitely one of the best drivers in history en maybe even the single best driver, but we have to face facts. Its only because he's French that he was able to achieve what he did.

Exactly. We've all known this for a while, but only now, after all this time, do we know for sure, since Ogier jumped into the Total team.

Another note though, Duval was a definite like or dislike character. I've always been on the like side personally :) Would love to see him(and a few more manufacturers ;) ) back in full time rallying.

[N.O.T]

And how exactly is ogier (or latvala) different than that? Besides the fact that he is allowed to win due to his French passport of course.


Than I must have missed a rally. Sorry, I truly believed his last rally was germany 2010. Where he, with a crappy ford, after not having driven for more than a year, en almost without testing was 5th before crashing.
And how he's faster? I don't know. I know he's at least as fast in germany, although he was never allowed to win.

Perhaps you can explain to me why citroen, in you opinion, payed duval to come over from ford, just to throw him out of the team and replace him with sordo after his really good results at the end of the 2005 season? I would find it very interesting to read your thoughts about that situation.


The same could be said about you. I'm a fan of loeb, but the way you adore him and citroen is a bit over the top. He is definitely one of the best drivers in history en maybe even the single best driver, but we have to face facts. Its only because he's French that he was able to achieve what he did.


If you think that Citroen payed duval millions with the sole purpose to destroy his career then i really do not have much to discuss....my view is that Duval was very fast driver and he could really challenge everyone at the time, but he destoyed everything with his **** behaviour towards the team and his co-drivers...

and if you also think that Ogier is winning or he is allowed to win because of his passport then i cannot help you...Citroen had drivers like Mcrae/sainz/duval/Puras/Sordo... by all means that doesn't show they have favouristism towards the french, the fact that the 2 french drivers right now are the fastest of the bunch is not their problem.....BOTH Ogier and Loeb won inferior championships before jumping up.

Duval never managed to control his character and his belly.....that was the reason he is out of the sport not his passport.

[Bobcat]

Citroen gunning for ninth straight WRC win in Rally Australia - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94281)

"Citroen starts this week's Rally Australia gunning for its ninth straight victory in this year's World Rally Championship - a record the team's technical director Xavier Mestelan-Pinon says is down to the French firm's experience in the sport."

"..... This is the result of 10 years' experience at the top level in rallying."

[Bobcat]

Ford team chief Malcolm Wilson said his squad is ready to respond to any upturn in pace by Citroen despite its Fiesta RS WRC still chasing a second win of the current campaign.

World Rally Championship - News - Citroen targets more WRC glory (http://www.wrc.com/news/citroen-targets-more-wrc-glory/?fid=15311)

Citroen team technical chief Xavier Mestelan-Pinon claimed the dominant DS3 WRC will get better with age.

The French manufacturer is aiming to make it nine wins from 10 starts.

[Bobcat]

Wilson: Bangen um Ford-Vertrag :: rallye-magazin.de / Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallye-magazin.de%2Frallyes%2Fwm%2Fnachrichten%2Fnews-detail%2Fd%2F2011%2F09%2F08%2Fwilson-bangen-um-ford-vertrag%2Findex.html)

[tfp]

"There is no question that you would like to make love"

:D

[Mitch555]

Please make a calculation to support that view.

In fairness Franky, N.O.T is actually right. If you can come up with figures to support the change, then its all good. N.O.T is supporting the current situation, which is tried and proven, so the onus is on you to provide figures in order to prove that your view and idea is the way forward. Below, I have written a more clear rationale of what N.O.T was probably trying to say, along with what I'd say. Come back with a substantial answer ;)

WRC Teams have a strict budget at the start of the year. The cost of running a third car on all event is major when you need to ship it, parts, recce car, hiring extra team personnel for rallies and back at headquarters, accommodation for said personnel, airfares for all of them, wear and tear on an extra car... the cost of doing that for one rally, let alone a whole season is ridiculous. You are looking at millions of Euros, especially since the factory teams rotate their cars (using 2 cars for each driver). Although you get more data, by running the extra car and costs, you would have less money to develop the car anyhow. This is why in some cases, semi-works cars, such as Stobart, have been better in getting data, as a lot of the costs are being paid for by the driver and their team and sponsors. The gain from an extra car, marketing exposure wise, is not going to match these costs either, which is why the manufacturers don't come to the party.



Without a doubt, testing is another major issue. Years ago, it was easier to be in a WRC car, as there were many older cars around. However, now we have a new formula, its much harder to access a similar car and already have practice. S2000 cars aren't close due to natural aspiration requiring a different driving style, and the old WRCs have a lot of differences in differentials, making them a different beast to drive.

You don't get more money for winning at the moment, unless you are a new manufacturer, but even then, Mini and Volkswagen already have secure, big budgets for their rally programs and don't require bonuses from the manufacturer like Hyundai or Skoda (from VWG) for good performances, as they have the big budget in place to begin with. Ford does not have the same nature, as Global Ford are looking after many different motorsport operations, with a fair percentage in NASCAR.

In 2001, when the WRC was more competitive, and the 2 car rule was in place, manufacturers would run more than 2 cars. In the case of Peugeot, they had the experts in Rovanpera and Panizzi who could take wins which greatly improved their marketability, could provide data based on their 'expertise'. Mitsubishi and Subaru were both trialling new drivers in Solberg, Martin, Gardemeister and Radstrom, Skoda were would run a car for a Czech driver, Hyundai had the money to bring in Liatti and Kankkunen in order to improve the car. The whole issue is money. Lower consumer confidence has meant manufacturers have had less sales, and have less money to supplement their motorsport programs. This is why we have seen Mitsubishi pull out of Dakar (as well as their new brand direction), and Subaru and Suzuki pull the plug on their WRC programs and Honda in F1. In the case of Ford, as it is a Ford thread, they are more likely to protect their main market, USA, ahead of Europe. Thus NASCAR will get more interest than WRC.

[Franky]

Really good post, Mitch555.

I agree nearly with all that you wrote. I agree that running a third car would need a bigger budget, but don't agree that it isn't with positive effects.

Let's say that there are three manufactures, all running three cars because the two best of the three score the manufacture points. That would be there would be 9 top level drivers + fast privateers in the customer cars. I'll say that there would be 10 drivers who have the potential to be on a podium. The number of fast drivers would generate more fights and more interesting rallies. More interesting rallies generate the interest in media, which in return starts to talk more about the rallies. More media exposure gives confidence to firms to sponsor the teams/sport. More funding from sponsors means a bigger budget.

Of course the WRC.com and the rally reviews need to become a lot better to support it.

About the calculations. As a fan it's nearly impossible to calculate the cost of running x number of cars in a team without inside information. And the effects of better media coverage aren't easy to notice, yet alone calculate because usually media researchers figure it out years later when conducting a research project.

[Mitch555]

Let's say that there are three manufactures, all running three cars because the two best of the three score the manufacture points. That would be there would be 9 top level drivers + fast privateers in the customer cars. I'll say that there would be 10 drivers who have the potential to be on a podium. The number of fast drivers would generate more fights and more interesting rallies. More interesting rallies generate the interest in media, which in return starts to talk more about the rallies. More media exposure gives confidence to firms to sponsor the teams/sport. More funding from sponsors means a bigger budget.

This is true, FIA does need to move on this, however, they won't. Citroen, Ford and Mini are all enjoying running business instead of teams and building customer cars, especially M-Sport. It makes more sense financially to be getting paid assisting other semi-privateers rather than making a third car and having to pay the bills for it. Ford is a prime example. In Stobart they could have brought in Atkinson, Aava (I could sit here all night making a list :P) for Rally Australia, instead they run Wilson and Novikov in scoring cars, because they are paying, yet a more favourable outcome would have been had with someone else.

Competition is part of the issue with marketing at the moment, however, the whole 'marketing mix', especially promotion, has a lot wrong with it. If Mini and VW have the money and want 3 cars, then it would happen I think, as Ford and Citroen have been happy with 2 for a while now.


And the effects of better media coverage aren't easy to notice, yet alone calculate because usually media researchers figure it out years later when conducting a research project.

This is exactly why teams aren't moving to 3 cars. Why waste the money when you don't know the effects until 3 to 5 years later. The economic climate is certainly not right for risk taking e.g. adding a 3rd factory car. There is very little measurability within the WRC industry. Is the WRC creating the positive perception of brands and stimulating buyer behaviour to purchase cars? We don't know, the likelihood is very low though. This is back down to the poor marketing by WRC and manufacturers.

Citroen and Ford also have nothing to gain as its not like they are relaunching themselves as a rally brand like Mini and VW. Subaru is another who can gain this with the new 1.6 WRX. As frustrating as it is being a WRC fan at the moment, we have to sit tight during the GFC. Hopefully the stakeholder meeting David Richards wants can go ahead and get a bit more clarity. Reality is we don't want to be Jean Todt's afterthought, we need new people managing the WRC. This is the wrong thread for that, but Ari Vatanen might be our man.

[Bobcat]

In the case of Ford, as it is a Ford thread, they are more likely to protect their main market, USA, ahead of Europe. Thus NASCAR will get more interest than WRC.
I don't agree that they are more likely to protect their main market, USA, ahead of Europe or Asia. NASCAR and V8 Supercars are only for their local markets. The World Rally Championship is the good way for their global market - which will be their main market. It is an investment in their future, it is an investment in the future of ONE FORD and its global manufacturing strategy, global manufacturing operations. ;)

[focus206]

I wouldn't say that the main market of Ford is the American market. I don't know how to say it well in English, but Ford is getting way more money from the European market than from the American one. Or at least it was in this way in the past few years.

[Bobcat]

MaxRally | News | Hirvonen hopes that Australia will seal Ford deal (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/hirvonen_hopes_that_australia_will_seal_ford_deal/)

[MJW]

There is a story in www.GPweek.com | F1 | WRC | MotoGP | GP | Grand prix | Formula One | News | Motorsport | Magazine | F1 Images | F1 Photos | F1 Pictures | Racing | Motor Racing | (http://www.gpweek.com) about Ford staying or leaving WRC. Didn't give too much away, just that it will be October when the decision is made, or announced.

[Daniel]

MaxRally | News | Hirvonen hopes that Australia will seal Ford deal (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/hirvonen_hopes_that_australia_will_seal_ford_deal/)

Jeez he's as delusional as Wilson...... So what Mikko? You finished third, it just happened that the other two guys in front crashed out.

[N.O.T]

MaxRally | News | Hirvonen hopes that Australia will seal Ford deal (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/hirvonen_hopes_that_australia_will_seal_ford_deal/)

Citroen hopes that too...

[bluuford]

Jeez he's as delusional as Wilson...... So what Mikko? You finished third, it just happened that the other two guys in front crashed out.

Do not beat the person who is already down! And do not forget that to finish first, first you have to finish! I can see that you speak ok english and as far as I can understand that Matthew has a bit Welsh accent and he has understood this sentence bit wrong - to finish first you have to finish worst ;-)

[Daniel]

Do not beat the person who is already down! And do not forget that to finish first, first you have to finish! I can see that you speak ok english and as far as I can understand that Matthew has a bit Welsh accent and he has understood this sentence bit wrong - to finish first you have to finish worst ;-)

Oh of course, Mikko won and take nothing away from it, other than the knowledge that if not for the Sebs flying off the road he'd have been 3rd at best.....

[Mintexmemory]

Oh of course, Mikko won and take nothing away from it, other than the knowledge that if not for the Sebs flying off the road he'd have been 3rd at best.....

4th at best, while JML's car holds together he is invariably quicker than Mikko and morally JML was the winner and may well have given the Citroens a close run in any event.

[tfp]

Do not beat the person who is already down! And do not forget that to finish first, first you have to finish! I can see that you speak ok english and as far as I can understand that Matthew has a bit Welsh accent and he has understood this sentence bit wrong - to finish first you have to finish worst ;-)

:up: +1 Some people forget about this!

[mm1]

Give Miko some credit for Australia, take into account that Miko knew he didn`t have to push after Sebs accidents. And he knew that he`ll be first because of team orders, in those circumstances you woun`t go all 100%, maybe that`s why JML was faster. I think Australia didn`t show the true speed of Mikos and both Seb`s.

[pete c]

Jeez he's as delusional as Wilson...... So what Mikko? You finished third, it just happened that the other two guys in front crashed out.

what a completely moronic statement.

[Daniel]

what a completely moronic statement.

You obviously don't get it. Only a moron thinks that Mikko performed any better than in any other rally this year, it just happened that the competition screwed up.....

[pete c]

no, only a moron thinks that Mikko didn't win and was beaten by 2 drivers who didn't finish.
you're the one who said he finished third.
maybe you don't understand the concept of winning...

[Francis44]

I Think M-sport problems not only concern their car and reliability, but their drivers aswell, Ogier should be a good indication if he goes to Ford.

[Barreis]

Hirvonen's not good enough to win the championship and Latvala crashes too much.

[Daniel]

no, only a moron thinks that Mikko didn't win and was beaten by 2 drivers who didn't finish.
you're the one who said he finished third.
maybe you don't understand the concept of winning...

Yes, that's it. That's why Sebastien Loeb got 25 points this weekend :dozey:

For the hard of understanding, whilst Mikko may have won the rally on paper, in reality his pace was no better than before and at best if the citroen's hadn't have crashed he'd have been 3rd or 4th. Just because he finished first on paper doesn't mean that all of a sudden he pulled that second per km out of his bum that he needed to pull out to show that he had pace.

[GigiGalliNo1]

This is really turning into a joke isn't it!?

[Daniel]

This is really turning into a joke isn't it!?

Sadly Matt, our fellow Aussie doesn't seem to understand the difference between actual pace and results. Whilst of course Ford are looking for their drivers to win events, what they really want is drivers who can actually win in a straight fight purely on pace. So Mikko won, he was still as slow as ever and nothing actually changed from their side other than Citroen's drivers crashing out. If Pete doesn't get that then he's been drinking a bit too much XXXX........

[GigiGalliNo1]

I get it now ;)

[GigiGalliNo1]

You know who's got pace and consistency?

Mateusz Wilsonowiscz!

;)

[Barreis]

Pace for fifth or lower. :D

[Daniel]

You know who's got pace and consistency?

Mateusz Wilsonowiscz!

;)

Definitely! He's a class act ;)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Amen! But I get where your coming from re reply previously :)

[Daniel]

Amen! But I get where your coming from re reply previously :)

Tbh it was pretty obvious :p Pete just didn't seem to want to understand.

[janvanvurpa]

Sadly Matt, our fellow Aussie doesn't seem to understand the difference between actual pace and results. Whilst of course Ford are looking for their drivers to win events, what they really want is drivers who can actually win in a straight fight purely on pace. So Mikko won, he was still as slow as ever and nothing actually changed from their side other than Citroen's drivers crashing out. If Pete doesn't get that then he's been drinking a bit too much XXXX........

Danny Danny Danny!

Maybe you could rephrase it to sumpin like "Hirvonen won but really didn' "beat" the Sebs cause they stuff up early and fawked themselves and this poncy Stupor Rally confuses the issue."

I know what you're say and have seen genius guys in lcal events who are so slow it is actually amazing ---driving only 42% the speed of the winners, prance around after the top guys breaks and say " I beat Ben Clock!!! I beat Pastrami!!!"

No they didn't beat anybody, but they finished ahead of those that broke.

[Mintexmemory]

Hirvonen's not good enough to win the championship and Latvala crashes too much.

Repetition of a worn-out stereotype. JML is actually pushing harder than the Ford engineering will allow. Only Day 1 Sardinia this year was a driver error as opposed to mechanical failure.

[Daniel]

Danny Danny Danny!

Maybe you could rephrase it to sumpin like "Hirvonen won but really didn' "beat" the Sebs cause they stuff up early and fawked themselves and this poncy Stupor Rally confuses the issue."

I know what you're say and have seen genius guys in lcal events who are so slow it is actually amazing ---driving only 42% the speed of the winners, prance around after the top guys breaks and say " I beat Ben Clock!!! I beat Pastrami!!!"

No they didn't beat anybody, but they finished ahead of those that broke.

Amen to that!

[tfp]

You obviously don't get it. Only a moron thinks that Mikko performed any better than in any other rally this year, it just happened that the competition screwed up.....

No need for that.

It swings in both ways though, this time(maybe for the first time this season) luck has swung in fords way. Remember Argentina? Loeb got a big time penalty that put him out of contention for a win. And then his competition just fell before his feet. That was Loebs turn to be lucky. This time, its Hirvonens turn.

[tfp]

Repetition of a worn-out stereotype. JML is actually pushing harder than the Ford engineering will allow. Only Day 1 Sardinia this year was a driver error as opposed to mechanical failure.

That was a Co driver error ;)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Amen!

[AMSS]

Amen to that!

I see you can look into the Future! Good, tell me the Stock market course for next week or the US currency by the end of next week...
Seriously the conditions on Friday clearly favoured the firts on the road whereas the conditions on Saturday was the other way around. NOBODY can say who would have won based on Fridays first 2 stages!! Even if everyone would have finished.
And everybody who`s really been involved in rallying knows this.
And before you say it than I don`t favour either of the finns!

[Daniel]

I see you can look into the Future! Good, tell me the Stock market course for next week or the US currency by the end of next week...
Seriously the conditions on Friday clearly favoured the firts on the road whereas the conditions on Saturday was the other way around. NOBODY can say who would have won based on Fridays first 2 stages!! Even if everyone would have finished.
And everybody who`s really been involved in rallying knows this.
And before you say it than I don`t favour either of the finns!

*sigh* Are you really that patriotic to think that even though Ford and Mikko got walloped in all those other rallies, that they could have won in Australia. Dream on......

[Brother John]

You call me a racist and this sounds like a racist yourself for the Ford team and Finnish drivers.
I know Loeb it's a great driver and Citroën a good car but that does not mean I should like them.
Why do you write only negative things about to all other drivers and teams.
It also sounds like racismto me.


Yes, that's it. That's why Sebastien Loeb got 25 points this weekend :dozey:

For the hard of understanding, whilst Mikko may have won the rally on paper, in reality his pace was no better than before and at best if the citroen's hadn't have crashed he'd have been 3rd or 4th. Just because he finished first on paper doesn't mean that all of a sudden he pulled that second per km out of his bum that he needed to pull out to show that he had pace.

[Daniel]

You call me a racist and this sounds like a racist yourself for the Ford team and Finnish drivers.
I know Loeb it's a great driver and Citroën a good car but that does not mean I should like them.
Why do you write only negative things about to all other drivers and teams.
It also sounds like racismto me.

Firstly, I called you xenophobic! It's a rather different word to racist.

I have no issue with British or Finnish people. If I did I wouldn't have married a British woman and DonJippo, Tomi and AFF would have murdered me and left me in a ditch if I had issues with Finns.

[AMSS]

*sigh* Are you really that patriotic to think that even though Ford and Mikko got walloped in all those other rallies, that they could have won in Australia. Dream on......
Read the last sentence I wrote, and I won`t get into a debate with someone who has never attended a rally on the competitor side!!
Again if you would care to look at my previous replies you can see that I in know way favour either Ford or their current drivers.
End of my comments regarding this!

[Daniel]

Read the last sentence I wrote, and I won`t get into a debate with someone who has never attended a rally on the competitor side!!
Again if you would care to look at my previous replies you can see that I in know way favour either Ford or their current drivers.
End of my comments regarding this!

I don't quite see the point you're trying to make then. Of course no one knows what would have happened. But have the Mikko/Ford combination ever really troubled Loeb greatly for the last few years? Sadly not.

[Brother John]

Firstly, I called you xenophobic! It's a rather different word to racist.
I have no issue with British or Finnish people. If I did I wouldn't have married a British woman and DonJippo, Tomi and AFF would have murdered me and left me in a ditch if I had issues with Finns.

Daniel I know myself very well and know I always say everything what I have in my mind, it is not always positive for everyone but I still have many friends everywhere.
I am not xenophobic and yes i do not like the French because I had many private problems with them when I worked with my old own company with various car manufacturers.
I saw how they think, work and how they treat me, other foreigners and other businesses.
Hopefully you get now a different thought about me and it is better that we not continue to discus about things like this, here on the Forem. ;)

[Daniel]

Daniel I know myself very well and know I always say everything what I have in my mind, it is not always positive for everyone but I still have many friends everywhere.
I am not xenophobic and yes i do not like the French because I had many private problems with them when I worked with my old own company with various car manufacturers.
I saw how they think, work and how they treat me, other foreigners and other businesses.
Hopefully you get now a different thought about me and it is better that we not continue to discus about things like this, here on the Forem. ;)

John, I've met you and you seem like a very nice guy :) I don't like to say things like that about people I meet of course. I myself have travelled a little bit and dealt with people of different nationalities and cultures, some of which I've liked more than others. I went to Geneva for a couple of days after NORF in 2007 and my god, I've never met a bunch of people who were more rude and up themselves than the French Swiss in Geneva. So I get where you're coming from.

But your criticism was completely unreasonable, Ford have done the same if not worse. In 2005 at Rally Australia they serviced the cars in 4 sides zip up tents so no one could see anything and when I tried to take a picture of the underside of the car one of the mechanics pushed me over to stop me taking my photo. But he didn't do this because he was British, he did it because that's what all teams do when they've got sensitive technology they don't want others to see. Whilst I was really annoyed to be pushed over and almost punched the guy back, I understand why he did it and I didn't put it down to him being British or French or whatever.

[Bobcat]

Q:
Malcolm, it’s been eight events since a Ford was on the top step of the podium. It seems to have been tough year for the team. Where did the plan go wrong?
MW:
I wish I could sit here and say. You can imagine how bad it feels for everyone in the team. It’s even more frustrating because this year we have been more competitive than ever before, especially on Tarmac. It’s very difficult when you’re this competitive and are losing by the smallest margins in history. It’s not the best position to be in at the moment but we’re confident that we’ve got the pace and the guys can do the job and we have to really try to win all of the remaining events. In terms of what has gone wrong, if you look at the small margins, it’s difficult to say something has gone wrong. When you lose a rally by thirty seconds or more, you can pin-point a problem, but when you lose by two seconds over three days, it’s difficult to determine the problem. It’s a sad thing but it goes to show how competitive this sport is, but it’s a shame to be on the receiving end of bad luck.

Q:
How would you assess both Jari-Matti and Mikko’s performances this year?
MW:
The performance has been there but there have been the odd problems and we can’t escape it, the odd technical things, or driver errors. We’ve now seen to win at this level everything has to be one hundred per cent.

Q:
We are still awaiting a decision on whether Ford will continue within the WRC. Can you give us any insight into when that decision will be made and whether it will be favourable?
MW:
I’ve been in the job a long time. Ford is the longest established manufacturer in the WRC. There is no question that there is the desire to stay and continue in the WRC. We’re in negotiations at the moment and let’s hope we have a favourable announcement to make in the future.

Q:
If Ford were to continue next year would the driver line-up remain the same?
MW:
My priority is to keep Ford in the WRC.

Q:
Are there talks with any other drivers within the current WRC ranks?
MW:
As I said, my priority is to keep Ford in the WRC but of course we want to strengthen our driver line-up, hence our relationship with the likes of Tänak. To be honest, you can’t discount anything but our main priority is to keep Ford in the WRC.

Q:
How much pressure is on the team for a good result?
MW:
Certainly a good result would definitely help. We want to win. It’s what Ford wants as well but that won’t be the final decision about WRC. We need to get Ford back on the top step of the podium.

[Daniel]

I'm sorry but that's a load of crap!!!!! "Smallest margins in history" my butt. On paper the margins might look small, but if you consider that Malcolm's drivers usually have the road position advantage for 2 days and still lose then obviously the margins don't tell the whole story.

[Mintexmemory]

I'm sorry but that's a load of crap!!!!! "Smallest margins in history" my butt. On paper the margins might look small, but if you consider that Malcolm's drivers usually have the road position advantage for 2 days and still lose then obviously the margins don't tell the whole story.

Not to mention the Argentina experience you've already mentioned - the biggest handicap overcomeby the opposition!

[Bobcat]

Q:
Malcolm, you said it was important to win here and the team have secured a one-two; is there a sense of relief in the Ford camp?
MW:
I think we’ve touched the summit. We’ve lost quite a few rallies by such a small margin and to be honest, you don’t start to doubt yourself but you keep thinking, when are things going to change, when are you going to get onto the top step. But that’s what has been really important - when the whole team sticks together. Everybody’s played such a big part to get this result and there’s no question it’s just the boost we needed, I think at a crucial time with the three events left in Championship. It’s fantastic now to put Mikko back in the hunt again and a great job by both these guys in very difficult conditions. You can imagine the huge amount of pressure on the team because all we could do from half way through Friday is basically throw this rally away, so really it’s fair play to these two guys that they’ve managed to keep ahead of the Norwegian and keep the Finns on top.

Q:
Citroën could have claimed the Manufacturer’s title here in Australia had they sealed a one-two, but now the team have been offered a chance to continue to fight in both Manufacturers’ and Drivers’ Championships. Can you capitalise on this now?
MW:
I think we would need a few more results like what we have had here. I have a feeling that that’s not going to happen but we’ve seen what can happen here. Anything’s possible if we keep on fighting. We know we can make some improvements and hopefully we will in time for France. Hopefully we can go to France really in a good position.

Q:
You mentioned improvements, what kind of improvements?
MW:
Just detail things that we learnt from Germany. As we said we’ve got a test plan and quite a few things we want to try.

[bretddog]

Don't be under any illusion. Ford is still heading downhill. When we think it can't get any worse, they surprise us with their remarkable consistency of hitting new lows. There are still many barriers to break, like; No victories in a whole season. Lose the championships with less than half the points of Citroen. Hirvonen and Latvala fleeing the party. etc. To dream of their resurrection is like a newbie in the stock market, leveraging up on falling prices.

Let me see at least one competitive rally before hoping for anything.

[Bobcat]

There are still many barriers to break, Do you have any concrete examples or experience?

[bretddog]

Do you have any concrete examples or experience?

What you mean? there's a "like", and a semicolon..

I'm just expressing my annoyance over the total lack of competitiveness, by a manufacturer obviously knowing, but not willing to put in what it takes. It's getting quite boring when the decline just gets steeper, two years into the crack.

[danon]

Wilson reveals Australia power stage didn’t go to plan - “We couldn’t get the time through to Jari quick enough,” said Wilson. MaxRally | News | Wilson reveals Australia power stage didn (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/wilson_reveals_australia_power_stage_didnt_go_to_p lan/)

[Bobcat]

World Rally Championship - News - Hopes of new Ford deal increase (http://www.wrc.com/news/hopes-of-new-ford-deal-increase/?fid=15405)

Hopes that Ford will continue to fight for World Rally Championship glory in 2012 have improved after Gerard Quinn, the company's European motorsport boss, confirmed talks are ongoing over a new five-year commitment to the series.

He continued: “If we’re going to commit to any programme you need to make a long-term commitment and to have appropriate investment to be competitive. What we’ve seen from a short-term commitment is that it generally doesn’t work as well as a long-term commitment. If you’re going to do anything then you need to do it for a longer term.”

I strongly agree with this statement by Gerard Quinn.

[GigiGalliNo1]

But what if after this long term commitment, they haven't proven much.... ? Have they not already committed a for a long time and what have they shown against Citroen?

Sorry, not trying to be rude or pull Ford down!

[Bobcat]

Have they not already committed a for a long time....? No, Ford had WRC's short-term commitments (contracts or deals) with M-Sport, I suppose.

[Motorsportfun]

The last contract was a two-year deal, signed at the end of 2009 for 2010-2011 seasons. So, it's obviously a short-term commitment with M-Sport.

[Arwel Davies]

Along with a 5 year deal we may see some more investment and maybe some more hands on from Ford themselves. Lets face it Citroen dont hold back with their programme, Mini have fired a warning shot of what their capable of with their performances so far and with VW coming with their reported big bucks aiming to win from the off Ford could be in danger of being bottom of all teams from 2013.
If this new long term deal does come off with more investment then maybe we'll see a real good battle for both titles from all teams involved.

[AndyRAC]

If they want to win, then they have to do it properly, i;e spend money.....

Two/ Five years of more of the same isn't going to cut it, especially now that VW are on the scene, and will spend millions to win.

[alleskids]

Ford has to spend more of their own money and secondly seperate the client division form the factory team. M-Sport should focus pure on the factory team effort and have different facility for client cars. Two or five years with the same half headed approache wil bring Ford nothing but shame.

[Motorsportfun]

If they want to win, then they have to do it properly, i;e spend money.....

Two/ Five years of more of the same isn't going to cut it, especially now that VW are on the scene, and will spend millions to win.

That's the point: they have to spend to pick Ogier and give proper tests and development. They mainly needs much more test days to deliver a good reliability to the car. It's unbelievable that a competitive car (like we saw in some occasions) it's so crappy built!

If they sign again a privately-funded programme (like now, with Abu Dhabi, BP and rent/sells to satellite teams), then we'll see a situation like last season!

[AndyRAC]

If they (M-Sport) weren't short of funds, they could concentrate solely on the WRC team. Maybe they could let another part of the company do the Privateer/Satellite cars. What has been proven, is that they can't do both.

[Motorsportfun]

If they (M-Sport) weren't short of funds, they could concentrate solely on the WRC team. Maybe they could let another part of the company do the Privateer/Satellite cars. What has been proven, is that they can't do both.

They can do both, just in the way they did for the WRC Academy. Open a new factory to satellite teams and run them with it. IMHO, that's a way M-Sport can use to gain some money from privateers like Villagra, Kuipers, etc.

[OldF]

I remember someone said on this forum that they would have a solution to get more power from the engine but that it would be costly. Maybe with a five-year contract and more money from Ford, Ford could get more return on the investment (which is difficult to measure).


Ford has to spend more of their own money and secondly seperate the client division form the factory team. M-Sport should focus pure on the factory team effort and have different facility for client cars. Two or five years with the same half headed approache wil bring Ford nothing but shame.

It would be a good idea to separate the two functions and have Ford running the WRC project with dedicated staff and M-Sport the customer programs. IMO they could still share common facilities (only different departments) because then all the information would be under the same roof.

It’s sometimes fruitful when people discuss with each other during lunch and coffee breaks. Someone has noticed something and another something else and merging those observations could lead to improvements.

[Barreis]

They can do both, just in the way they did for the WRC Academy. Open a new factory to satellite teams and run them with it. IMHO, that's a way M-Sport can use to gain some money from privateers like Villagra, Kuipers, etc.

That's why Wilson has middle age castle.

[driveace]

On a visit to M Sport this week we were told that all the WRC Fiesta,s ,belong to M Sport,so giving the impression that Ford pay M Sport a fee and expenses for each WRC event.So it suggests that Ford lease the rally cars from M Sport,and sponsers also fund each event.Whereas Citroen will own all the cars as they are "Factory Cars".

[alleskids]

how do Citroen racing seperate the factory cars from client cars? PH Sport is running the client cars from a different building?

[Plan9]

All this talk of Ford leaving makes me long for the days of Markko Martin. What are the chances of him comming back permanently? I know that he has been doing some set up work for Ken Block & is also scheduled to test the official Ford entry cars before the tarmac rounds.

[tfp]

All this talk of Ford leaving makes me long for the days of Markko Martin. What are the chances of him comming back permanently? I know that he has been doing some set up work for Ken Block & is also scheduled to test the official Ford entry cars before the tarmac rounds.

Another driver I'd love to see in WRC again. Marcus gronholm and Markko martin in a team, that would give the two sebs a shock :)

[N.O.T]

a shock of laughter...

[Plan9]

At least Markko and Marcus seemed to get on better than some other pairings we could name. It was a shame about the 307 and what happened to Michael Beef Park.

[N.O.T]

Loeb beat them both when they were competitive...i doubt they would bring anything in the sport now that are part time drivers.

plus i do not think they want to return.

[tfp]

a shock of laughter...

In Monte Carlo.... :rotflmao:

[tfp]

At least Markko and Marcus seemed to get on better than some other pairings we could name. It was a shame about the 307 and what happened to Michael Beef Park.

Terrible shame about Beef. Markko should pair up with Robert Ried again :)

[Rallyper]

Terrible shame about Beef. Markko should pair up with Robert Ried again :)

Again?

[tfp]

Again?

Yeah, they did a one off event togethor(and won :) ) to commemorate either beef or burnsy, cant remember which one, I'll do some digging :)

[tfp]

Yeah, they did a one off event togethor(and won :) ) to commemorate either beef or burnsy, cant remember which one, I'll do some digging :)

Richard burns memorial rally, september 2008 :cool:

[GigiGalliNo1]

Can I ask how much much advanced in technology, testing, quality etc are Citroen better then M-Sport? Besides the money factor and Citroen are able to spend more money on research and stuff, is this what is making the difference between the two teams? So Citroen have and spend more $$€€ And Ford/Malcolm Sport don't?

[Rallyper]

Richard burns memorial rally, september 2008 :cool:

OK! That would be great. I met Robert in Portugal this year but forgot to ask him...
He also was seen at Ford in Finland. So that might be a low odds thing. The WRC-series seriously need both Markko and Marcus among the others like Sebs and Mikko, JML, Atko ...

[Mirek]

Can I ask how much much advanced in technology, testing, quality etc are Citroen better then M-Sport? Besides the money factor and Citroen are able to spend more money on research and stuff, is this what is making the difference between the two teams? So Citroen have and spend more $$€€ And Ford/Malcolm Sport don't?

The biggest difference is that Citroën is involved as a full factory effort. M-Sport is just a private company running the WRC program for Ford. Citroën spends way more than Ford and has much larger team than M-Sport. I believe they have at least 5x more engineers working on WRC project etc.

Now VW comes with similar approach as Citroën, together with almost unlimited budget they must become a threat to Citroën. If not, it will be nothing less than an epic fail like Toyota in F1. I'm sure they are aware of that, so basically they have no other choice than to go for the title at all cost...

[Bobcat]

they have at least 5x more engineers working on WRC project Lol, it is nonsense.

[MJW]

Lol, it is nonsense. Well back in 2005 Peugeot and Citroen had more chefs in service park than Subaru had engineers. If you don't know or believe it when people who do know how well resourced Citroen are I can not help that. Please note this is not xenophobic Brit posting anti French rhetoric, but just quoting facts. VW will be the same, its time for Ford to decide do they want to play with the big boys and spend real money (which Ford Motor Company has and can spend) or continue this BP/Abu Dhabi sponsors money hobby effort.

[AndyRAC]

But do Ford Motor Company want to spend it on WRC?? Maybe NASCAR is their priority..???

[Bobcat]

Well back in 2005 Peugeot and Citroen had more chefs in service park than Subaru had engineers. If you don't know or believe it when people who do know how well resourced Citroen are I can not help that. Please note this is not xenophobic Brit posting anti French rhetoric, but just quoting facts. VW will be the same, its time for Ford to decide do they want to play with the big boys and spend real money (which Ford Motor Company has and can spend) or continue this BP/Abu Dhabi sponsors money hobby effort.

Well MJW, but I think "5x more engineers" is nonsense. I believe roughly about 2 times more engineers, so it is real now.

[MJW]

You believe what you want................. Frankly, I dont give a ****, if you think its nonsense.

[Bobcat]

But do Ford Motor Company want to spend it on WRC?? Maybe NASCAR is their priority..???
World Rally Championship - News - Hopes of new Ford deal increase (http://www.wrc.com/news/hopes-of-new-ford-deal-increase/?fid=15405)

[Bobcat]

You believe what you want................. Frankly, I dont give a ****, if you think its nonsense. New hospitality facilities for Ford | Best of Rally Live (http://www.best-of-rallylive.com/en/2011/07/30/new-hospitality-facilities-for-ford/) "212 M-Sport staff to attend our WRC, satellite team, S2000 and WRC Academy operations."

[Franky]

New hospitality facilities for Ford | Best of Rally Live (http://www.best-of-rallylive.com/en/2011/07/30/new-hospitality-facilities-for-ford/) "212 M-Sport staff to attend our WRC, satellite team, S2000 and WRC Academy operations."

Remove the people who work for satellite team, S2000 and Academy and what number is left then?

[danon]

Another driver I'd love to see in WRC again. Marcus gronholm and Markko martin in a team, that would give the two sebs a shock :)

Ford brings back Märtin for asphalt testing -> Ford holt Märtin für einen Asphalt-Test zurück | Automobil | MOTORSPORT aktuell (http://www.motorsport-aktuell.com/automobil/ford-holt-maertin-fuer-einen-asphalt-test-zurueck-4011780.html)

[OldF]

they have at least 5x more engineers working on WRC project


Lol, it is nonsense.

Interview of Christian Loriaux in Vauhdin Maailma 12/2010 about the designing of Fiesta WRC.

“We are doing the designing with an eight people team when for example Citroen has a team of forty people”

Let’s see now. YES, 5 * 8 = 40

[Bobcat]

Remove the people who work for satellite team, S2000 and Academy and what number is left then?

Interview of Christian Loriaux in Vauhdin Maailma 12/2010 about the designing of Fiesta WRC.

“We are doing the designing with an eight people team when for example Citroen has a team of forty people”

Let’s see now. YES, 5 * 8 = 40

8? Lol, only the new team HQ is home to 14 engineers:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/137477-ford-fiesta-rs-wrc-45.html#post959921
WRC - Ford's new Rally HQ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgzdAw86Q4U)

[dimviii]

8? Lol, only the new team HQ is home to 14 engineers:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/137477-ford-fiesta-rs-wrc-45.html#post959921
WRC - Ford's new Rally HQ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgzdAw86Q4U)


''designing''

[Mirek]

Obviously Bobcat knows more about the Fiesta development than Christian Loriaux... or not? :)

[Daniel]

Well back in 2005 Peugeot and Citroen had more chefs in service park than Subaru had engineers. If you don't know or believe it when people who do know how well resourced Citroen are I can not help that. Please note this is not xenophobic Brit posting anti French rhetoric, but just quoting facts. VW will be the same, its time for Ford to decide do they want to play with the big boys and spend real money (which Ford Motor Company has and can spend) or continue this BP/Abu Dhabi sponsors money hobby effort.
Those bloody French!!!!! Cooking their way to victory! :D Agree though. When I had a media pass at Rally Australia you could walk into the Citroen and Peugeot service areas and have a proper cooked meal at about any time of the day and if you went into the Ford or Subaru areas you could get a can of pop and some crisps perhaps....

It says a lot about the budget of a team when they can afford extravagances like that on a flyaway round like Australia.

[Motorsportfun]

Obviously Bobcat knows more about the Fiesta development than Christian Loriaux... or not? :)

He's Malcolm Wilson in disguise. :D

[Bobcat]

Obviously Bobcat knows more about the Fiesta development than Christian Loriaux... or not? :)
Maybe Loriaux has so many excuses like his boss... or not?

[OldF]

The interview was made last year so he didn’t need any excuses at that time.

[tfp]

Those bloody French!!!!! Cooking their way to victory! :D Agree though. When I had a media pass at Rally Australia you could walk into the Citroen and Peugeot service areas and have a proper cooked meal at about any time of the day and if you went into the Ford or Subaru areas you could get a can of pop and some crisps perhaps....

It says a lot about the budget of a team when they can afford extravagances like that on a flyaway round like Australia.

Croque Monsuier, anyone? :D

[Rallyper]

Those bloody French!!!!! Cooking their way to victory! :D Agree though. When I had a media pass at Rally Australia you could walk into the Citroen and Peugeot service areas and have a proper cooked meal at about any time of the day and if you went into the Ford or Subaru areas you could get a can of pop and some crisps perhaps....

It says a lot about the budget of a team when they can afford extravagances like that on a flyaway round like Australia.

I´m not sure you can measure success in how many chefs you have in the paddock. And certainly not prophesy how good a team will be by that number. However when VW is in the number of money will count.

[Daniel]

I´m not sure you can measure success in how many chefs you have in the paddock. And certainly not prophesy how good a team will be by that number. However when VW is in the number of money will count.

Yes, because that's EXACTLY what I said :rolleyes: Perhaps M-Sport should be hiring chefs and not engineers.

[Daniel]

Croque Monsuier, anyone? :D

Think fillet steaks and so on and you're on the right track :D

[MJW]

Those bloody French!!!!! Cooking their way to victory! :D Agree though. When I had a media pass at Rally Australia you could walk into the Citroen and Peugeot service areas and have a proper cooked meal at about any time of the day and if you went into the Ford or Subaru areas you could get a can of pop and some crisps perhaps....

It says a lot about the budget of a team when they can afford extravagances like that on a flyaway round like Australia.
The French do it properly

[tfp]

Think fillet steaks and so on and you're on the right track :D

Slurp! :p

[Bobcat]

The interview was made last year so he didn’t need any excuses at that time.
OldF, I read the interview...one of M-Sport’s standard excuses about the Focus and Fiesta.

There is not time for excuses!

[Brother John]

The French do it properly

:dozey: :erm: no comment :rolleyes: :s mokin:

[GigiGalliNo1]

Mitsubishi had a smaller team but had some delicious food courtesy of their few French, Finnish, Japanese and Italian Chefs!

[Bobcat]

Google Translate | Onko Fordin jatko jo varmistumassa? (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fblogit.mtv3.fi%2Fracegirl%2F2011%2F 09%2F19%2Fonko-fordin-jatko-jo-varmistumassa%2F)

Christian Loriaux refused to take a job offer from Volkswagen because he will probably have a new contract with Wilson for Ford’s future participation in the WRC.

[Barreis]

Better for VW. :D

[Miika]

Finnish paper quoting the Italian Auto Sprint and implying that Ford has made a decision to continue in the series and that the official announcement about it would come in October. Doesn´t say how long the new deal would be but if they don´t bring a bigger pile of money into Malcolm´s kitchen then it doesn´t matter if the new rumoured deal is for two years or for fifty years. With this pace they will be soon racing against the Minis and eventually can only dream of keeping up with the big-bucks VW.
Fordin jatko MM-ralleissa varmistumassa - Ralli - Turun Sanomat (http://www.ts.fi/moottoriurheilu/ralli/259115.html)

[Plan9]

Would Olsberg step in if M-Sport become any worse?

[N.O.T]

Finnish paper quoting the Italian Auto Sprint and implying that Ford has made a decision to continue in the series and that the official announcement about it would come in October. Doesn´t say how long the new deal would be but if they don´t bring a bigger pile of money into Malcolm´s kitchen then it doesn´t matter if the new rumoured deal is for two years or for fifty years. With this pace they will be soon racing against the Minis and eventually can only dream of keeping up with the big-bucks VW.
Fordin jatko MM-ralleissa varmistumassa - Ralli - Turun Sanomat (http://www.ts.fi/moottoriurheilu/ralli/259115.html)

its not all about money...its making good use of them also, because i have a feeling that if Ford gives M-sport more money then by some miracle Slowson will also find sponsorship for a full season next year...

[Miika]

Indeed it is also about how one uses the resources. If more money would mean more money for designing the kitchen and hospitalities -instead of the car- then I hope they won´t get any more than now. And as for case Slowson, I have a feeling he will be around no matter what Ford decides. I had high hopes of that fairytale finally running out of funds this season but apparently it is a never-ending story.

[Plan9]

+1 I agree with the previous comments. I also have a feeling that slowson will be around for quite awhile yet. I can't imagine the unlikely situation where he was in a position to win an event out right.

[Bobcat]

TouringCarTimes - WTCC: Arena still waiting to make decision on WTCC (http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=6754)

"Ford definitely haven't said they're coming yet," said Arena Team Principal Mike Earle to TouringCarTimes.

[Bobcat]

Time for Hirvonen to Step Up (http://www.mudsnowandtar.com/opinion/time-for-hirvonen-to-step-up)

[sollitt]

Unintelligent drivel and a very poorly written artcle. It's difficult to believe that the writer is a 'professional' journalist.

[noel157]

Unintelligent drivel and a very poorly written artcle. It's difficult to believe that the writer is a 'professional' journalist.

Why would that be?

[Bobcat]

Unintelligent drivel and a very poorly written artcle. It's difficult to believe that the writer is a 'professional' journalist.
I do not agree with you.

[tfp]

I do not agree with you.

I think what the article has said was right. Good fortune and consistency has seen him well this year, but from now on, consistency probably wont work, he needs to attack like he has shown he can do.
Good luck Hirvonen!

[sollitt]

The article contains several grammatical and spelling errors and is lacking structure which makes it difficult to read. It is full of conjecture and based on opinion rather than fact. It is, in essence, an amateurish item which might be the content of a blog or local club magazine. Not something you'd expect from a professional journalist and ought not have been posted as such.
The sentiment expressed is also questionable. There are no unworthy champions.
That said, I join the writer in the hope that Hirvonen can take the fight to the French in the upcoming rounds.

[pete c]

Whoa, bit harsh on the writer i think.
He is entitled to write his opinion, even if it is conjecture, and not fact, as it is an opinion piece, his opinion and his conjecture.
Thats what an opinion piece is all about...his opinion.

By Dan (http://www.mudsnowandtar.com/author/admin) on October 6, 2011 3:19 pm in Ford World Rally Team (http://www.mudsnowandtar.com/category/teams/ford-teams), Opinion (http://www.mudsnowandtar.com/category/opinion), Rally Opinion (http://www.mudsnowandtar.com/category/opinion/rallyopinion), Teams (http://www.mudsnowandtar.com/category/teams) / no comments (http://www.mudsnowandtar.com/opinion/time-for-hirvonen-to-step-up#commentspost) .

Seems the word opinion, is used two times in article headline.
I read that as being his opinion, which even as a professional journalist, he is entitled to have.

cheers
pete

[noel157]

The article contains several grammatical and spelling errors and is lacking structure which makes it difficult to read. It is full of conjecture and based on opinion rather than fact. It is, in essence, an amateurish item which might be the content of a blog or local club magazine. Not something you'd expect from a professional journalist and ought not have been posted as such.
The sentiment expressed is also questionable. There are no unworthy champions.
That said, I join the writer in the hope that Hirvonen can take the fight to the French in the upcoming rounds.

So Sollitt, if seems that if somebody's opinion is at odds with your opinion it's wrong, badly written and should not be published. That's my opinion.

[sollitt]

So Sollitt, if seems that if somebody's opinion is at odds with your opinion it's wrong, badly written and should not be published. That's my opinion.
That's not my view but don't let me stop you harbouring it.

If we were all to provide links to every schoolboy rant or blog, under the guise of serious journalism, the place would get very messy, very quickly.
The posting of a link suggests the material was a must read or interesting news item from a source of renown. It was not. If the writer is a member he could simply have expressed his opinion in a posting, as do the rest of us.

[Bobcat]

MaxRally | News | Tanak linked to World Rally Car chance in Wales (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/tanak_linked_to_world_rally_car_chance_in_wales/)

“I just got some time in the car to drive on Tarmac and, for sure, it was very good for me,” said Tanak. “But nobody knows about the future.”

[Bobcat]

Q:

There is talk, rumour and speculation about next year’s driver line-up with mention of a straight swap between you and Sébastien Ogier, can you enlighten us?

Mikko Hirvonen:

I haven’t seen the newspaper yet so maybe you can tell me. We don’t know what Ford is going to do in the future so we will have to wait and see.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wrc/2011/Pages/wrc-conf-esp1.aspx

[Raini]

Tänak is on the Rally GB list already.

http://www.walesrallygb.com/documents/Wales_Rally_GB_Draft_Entry_List_21-10-11.pdf

[Bobcat]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?t=128975&p=977585#post977585

[Bobcat]

The weathermen | Best of Rally Live (http://www.best-of-rallylive.com/en/2011/10/22/the-weathermen/)

22/10/2011 9:03 The weathermen

The weather in Catalunya could be changeable today. We took time to chat with Guy Bottlaender works as an engineer for Météo France Sport. Météo France has been a partner of Citroën Racing and Peugeot Sport in different disciplines for the past 10 years or so.

Difficult tyre choices resulting from variable weather conditions have frequently played a decisive role in the final result of certain world championship rallies over the years. August’s Rallye Deutschland, for example, was more or less settled on Day 1 when the Citroëns left Friday morning’s service park carrying a mixture of soft- and hard-compound MICHELIN Pilot Sport tyres, while Ford’s two drivers both opted for the harder option, despite the gathering storm clouds.

Guy Bottlaender, Citroën’s resident weatherman, has plenty of tales to tell on the subject. “Here in Catalunya, in 2007, the conditions were predominantly sunny, but I predicted there would be a surprise heavy shower in the middle of the event,” he recalls. “I was right, but this rally isn’t the most difficult one for me. New Zealand and Argentina are both far more complex because the information I have at my disposal isn’t as precise as it is in Europe. Wales RallyGB isn’t easy either, but the toughest one of them all is obviously the Monte Carlo…”

Guy’s job begins well upstream of each round. “I usually look at the data about a fortnight before leaving. For new events, I collect all the weather- and topography-related information I can as soon as the WRC calendar is published, which sometimes gives me more than a year to prepare.”

Guy prepares his forecasts using data and models provided by Météo France, as well as by the weather centres of the different countries he visits. “In Europe, we share and compare a great deal of information, so it is possible to be extremely precise. Elsewhere, it’s a little more complicated, although I’ve made friends over the years with colleagues in New Zealand and Australia, so that clearly helps.”

Guy has done this job for Citroën Racing since the 2003 Rallye Deutschland and expects to continue with the French squad in 2012. “The season kicks off with the Monte, which is always problematic. Happily, I worked with Peugeot on the last two rallies when it was a round of the IRC…”

Although Citroën Racing benefits from the services of an expert who is on-hand at events, the British-based Ford and MINI teams receive their weather advice from specialist companies who do not attend the rallies.

[tfp]

Although Citroën Racing benefits from the services of an expert who is on-hand at events, the British-based Ford and MINI teams receive their weather advice from specialist companies who do not attend the rallies.

Are you listening, Malcolm?

[Mirek]

We have here a professional meteorologist, so he can give us better idea how much a handicap it actually is. Where are You, Bluuford? :)

[Allyc85]

Motorsport News reports that we will not know the future of the Ford team until after Rally GB!

[wildsir]

Motorsport News reports that we will not know the future of the Ford team until after Rally GB!

Use your head. It's because Citroen will not allow Ford to announce Ogier till after last rally.

[tfp]

We have here a professional meteorologist, so he can give us better idea how much a handicap it actually is. Where are You, Bluuford? :)

Maybe Gronholm could have employed Bluuford? :D

[cali]

We have here a professional meteorologist, so he can give us better idea how much a handicap it actually is. Where are You, Bluuford? :)
As I've heard than MM Motorsport is using Bluuford's services. And they are very pleased about quality of the information. :)

[bluuford]

We have here a professional meteorologist, so he can give us better idea how much a handicap it actually is. Where are You, Bluuford? :)

Well, I am not professional meteorolgist. I have studdied it in university a little and later I had to have very precise weather forecasts, weather data and climatological data in my scientific work. So, I have done some additional studdies and research. Trying to compile forecasts has been pretty much my hobby besides my work for nearly 12 years now.

Reading the way Citroen is doing the weather forecast, it is pretty similar to the way I work. The biggest difference is the fact tha my only resource is my time, knowledge, a few screens and a few databases. And I am not on site as well.
The autumn weather we had in Spain is not possible to forecast for more than 6 hours. And Citroen way is the only way to make such forecasts as good as possible.

Specialists comapnies are using bigger models for bigger districts. Such models work well when there are cyclones approaching or leaving. But when there are thunderstorms, rainshowers etc. Those models might show you all kind of things :-) The only thing that works is experience (you have to follow the weather of the location for some time to see what happens in different conditions). So, you can also kind of calibrate or verify those general models and you know what you can trust or what might be questionable.

It is nice to have a hobby that is alo useful for the work and vice versa ;-)

[Mirek]

Thanks :)

[Allyc85]

Use your head. It's because Citroen will not allow Ford to announce Ogier till after last rally.

They also say that winning the championship will be a big decider as to if they are even here in 2012, let alone signed Ogier ;)

[GigiGalliNo1]

I thought Citroen just watch the weather at the end of the news on TV? :s

[N.O.T]

I thought Citroen just watch the weather at the end of the news on TV? :s

nobody expected you to believe something else...