Hamilton: Maybe it's because I'm black

[Big Ben]

Exactly, but he is the most talked about and criticized race driver of the modern era and this was too good an opportunity for some fans who pretend to follow the sport.

wait a minute.... you are underrating the opposition. if Alonso mentioned he was white Ioan still would have lost his mind about it... and so many others. The funny thing is X and Ioan would have been the bestest friends ever if that were the case :laugh: .

Who cares what they say anyway? Alonso kept saying on Thursday how it was only Friday Practice in an interview. I was waiting for Ioan to complain he didn't go to work the next day because of him. Didn't he?

[Big Ben]

I am tempted to comment the hate-bash of X to MS, but I see that ioan did a good job :)

He's a wonderful boy, isn't he? I don't know what MS' wife thinks of him but it must be nice for MS to have such a mighty e-defender.

[F1boat]

His arguments with X remind me of the old saying :"When and unstoppable force meets and unmovable object". I had my fair share of arguments with ioan, but here I think that he is right...

[Big Ben]

yeah... it's like breaking an unstoppable wind

[Bagwan]

Nice quote from Twit Lewis :
"I never meant to offend no one ."

[The Black Knight]

Nice quote from Twit Lewis :
"I never meant to offend no one ."

There's a definite touch of ebonics about that. Why that's just about as black as it gets. ;)

[SGWilko]

Nice quote from Twit Lewis :
"I never meant to offend no one ."

Copy error methinks - meant to be ne1. In the reports I've seen it has been written as no1.

[Bagwan]

There's a definite touch of ebonics about that. Why that's just about as black as it gets. ;)

I was pointing to the double negative in the statement .

Your words sound rather racist .
I assume you were applying the southern US accent to it .

If you have ever travelled to that part of the world , you would notice that , if born there , everyone speaks with that same accent .

Just like the statement from Lewis , yours was also in very bad taste .



Clearly , I should mentioned that his twitter statement was a double negative , and that he said , essentially , the opoosite of what he meant .

Or , was it a Freudian slip from Lewis ?

[V11]

the apology is a bit meanlingless when he already wrecked both their races, that atrocious interview capped off a very poor performance

[The Black Knight]

I was pointing to the double negative in the statement .

Your words sound rather racist .
I assume you were applying the southern US accent to it .

If you have ever travelled to that part of the world , you would notice that , if born there , everyone speaks with that same accent .

Just like the statement from Lewis , yours was also in very bad taste .



Clearly , I should mentioned that his twitter statement was a double negative , and that he said , essentially , the opoosite of what he meant .

Or , was it a Freudian slip from Lewis ?

I was joking!

[Firstgear]

Copy error methinks - meant to be ne1. In the reports I've seen it has been written as no1.

No1 - that's Vettel's car right?

[driveace]

NO ONE !! written as no1.He surely meant no-one.
well he had to grovel with his apologies,when I dont think he should have done,but there goes ,he has to keep the team and the sponsors happy.
ANYWAY lets hope that Lewis can kick some ass in Montreal,,and show us all how good he really is,
REMEMBER Lewis "Actions speak louder than words" SO lets see motor RACING !!!

[MJW]

Has Hamilton ever asked himself why he is in F1, maybe because he is black. As a 13 year old karter supported by McLaren, with TAG watches and arriving in a Mercedes perhaps the novelty value of being non white helped then. His undiubted talent stood out because of the difference in the typical mix of european kart meetings. You are what you are and racism is bad. But equally bad when you use it to your advantage to get sponsors and become noticed. Its like these minor celebrities craving for media attention one minute then diving for cover in a super injuntion.

[CaptainRaiden]

BzyHNoWP4uc

Onboard view of the Massa-Hamilton accident. Massa clearly takes a different and much tighter line at Loews than the Red Bull and Torro Rosso in front of him and turns in much sooner. Why? Was he trying to overtake Webber? But Webber was already past the corner. Hamilton's nose was at Massa's sidepod when he turned in to him. Surely he could have seen this in his mirrors?

[Cooper_S]

Well Lewis has already won twice in Canada so he must like this circuit... must be odds on favorite

[SGWilko]

perhaps the novelty value of being non white helped then.

Oh dear oh dear oh dear - eejot of the year award nomination...

He is where he is because he can drive 'kin fast and has excellent racecraft.

Of course, if the world was free of racism, skin colour would mean diddly squat - sadly, not the case, is it?

[CaptainRaiden]

Has Hamilton ever asked himself why he is in F1, maybe because he is black. As a 13 year old karter supported by McLaren, with TAG watches and arriving in a Mercedes perhaps the novelty value of being non white helped then.

Oh yes, he is in F1 because he's black. In the 90s Ron Dennis was going around the country looking for a black boy to pump all of Mclaren's money into, so that one day, as soon as he turns 18, he could attract sponsors because of his skin color. :rolleyes:


eejot of the year award nomination...

+1 from me. Just simply ridiculously amazing...

[Daniel]

BzyHNoWP4uc

Onboard view of the Massa-Hamilton accident. Massa clearly takes a different and much tighter line at Loews than the Red Bull and Torro Rosso in front of him and turns in much sooner. Why? Was he trying to overtake Webber? But Webber was already past the corner. Hamilton's nose was at Massa's sidepod when he turned in to him. Surely he could have seen this in his mirrors?

This just in. Cars must take EXACTLY the same line as the car in front unless they are McLarens in which case they can use whatever line they want?

[SGWilko]

This just in. Cars must take EXACTLY the same line as the car in front unless they are McLarens in which case they can use whatever line they want?

What would be helpful is if there was another in-car shot from the McLaren of the lap[s] previous to this at the hairpin to establish Massa's normal line there. If it is different, then it is not unreasonable to assume Massa made a deliberate early turn in.

[Shifter]

Hamilton's nose was at Massa's sidepod when he turned in to him. Surely he could have seen this in his mirrors?

Racing a F1 car is intense stuff, doubly so at Monaco. I think most drivers glance at the mirror just before the corner to see if someone is close enough to overtake and/or ducking out to make the pass, but at turn-in they're focused on making the corner. Take Hamilton's pass on Schumacher at Ste. Devote for instance, Schumacher widened his line once he saw the nose of the McLaren in his peripheral vision, and most late-overtakes that don't result in a collision, don't result in one because the overtaking driver got far enough alongside; say the nose to the front wheel or thereabouts. IMO Massa couldn't reasonably know Lewis was going to be there, just making it to the sidepod ain't enough. Hamilton committed himself to a last-millisecond overtake and simply wasn't far enough alongside. 100% Hamilton's fault.

[MJW]

Oh yes, he is in F1 because he's black. In the 90s Ron Dennis was going around the country looking for a black boy to pump all of Mclaren's money into, so that one day, as soon as he turns 18, he could attract sponsors because of his skin color. :rolleyes:



+1 from me. Just simply ridiculously amazing... ha ha, wound you roundy roundy boys up. Back of to my home on world rally forum.

[Daniel]

What would be helpful is if there was another in-car shot from the McLaren of the lap[s] previous to this at the hairpin to establish Massa's normal line there. If it is different, then it is not unreasonable to assume Massa made a deliberate early turn in.

Ah come on. So now you can only move a certain amount on the track from one lap to another? The fact is that it's the responsibility of the guy behind to make a safe pass. What you're asking if effectively for Massa just to give the place away.

[SGWilko]

Ah come on. So now you can only move a certain amount on the track from one lap to another? The fact is that it's the responsibility of the guy behind to make a safe pass. What you're asking if effectively for Massa just to give the place away.

No! But if you can establish a pattern to Massa's line around the hairpin, you can then apply a test of reasonableness - i.e. was it reasonable to assume that Massa would continue to take the same line. This will be a consideration that lead to Lewis making a move there. As was said in the interview, it is nigh on impossible to overtake, so you have to make the opportunity.

As for the St Devote incident with Maldonado, take a gander at this, it's tidy!

Interesting analyses… « (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/05/31/interesting-analyses/)

[Daniel]

No! But if you can establish a pattern to Massa's line around the hairpin, you can then apply a test of reasonableness - i.e. was it reasonable to assume that Massa would continue to take the same line. This will be a consideration that lead to Lewis making a move there. As was said in the interview, it is nigh on impossible to overtake, so you have to make the opportunity.

As for the St Devote incident with Maldonado, take a gander at this, it's tidy!

Interesting analyses… « (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/05/31/interesting-analyses/)
At the end of the day it's the responsibility of the driver behind to make the overtake safely.

[SGWilko]

At the end of the day it's the responsibility of the driver behind to make the overtake safely......

........umless the guy you are trying to pass turns in early on you........

I won't lie to you, this is true, but, as Martin Brundle pointed out when referencing his own experience of overtaking at Monaco - you need a willing opponent.

I'm off for an omelette.......

[CaptainRaiden]

IMO Massa couldn't reasonably know Lewis was going to be there, just making it to the sidepod ain't enough. Hamilton committed himself to a last-millisecond overtake and simply wasn't far enough alongside. 100% Hamilton's fault.

Lewis was hounding Massa for the previous 4-5 laps, so Massa would have known that he was in danger of being overtaken at any point, and IMO he was perfectly aware of where Lewis was. He was too far behind Webber to attempt a move, so the only logical explanation for him turning sooner on that corner is to block Hamilton. Still Lewis was way too overeager. I'd say 70-30 Hamilton's fault.


Ah come on. So now you can only move a certain amount on the track from one lap to another? The fact is that it's the responsibility of the guy behind to make a safe pass. What you're asking if effectively for Massa just to give the place away.

So then, MS gave his place away to Lewis? No, I think he just used his mirrors better. Same place, same move, Maldonado turned in sooner to block. For the successful completion of an overtaking maneuver on ANY track, the responsibility for it being clean lies with both drivers, this is what we were told before every karting race. You can block the faster driver to an extent, but at no point should you try to push him into the wall. Or the driver getting passed can simply turn into the overtaker, ala Schumacher doing it to Hill and Villenueve or squeezing the piss out of Rubens last year at Hungary, or chopping off some poor bloke's wing at Turkey this year.

Hell, none of the Ferrari top brass have said anything negative about the Massa move, deeming it a race incident. Domenicali was quite hush about it. And now Sam Michael has called the incident with Maldonado a racing incident as well:

Michael: Hamilton-Maldonado clash racing incident - GPUpdate.net (http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/261209/michael-hamilton-maldonado-clash-racing-incident/)


Michael: Hamilton-Maldonado clash racing incident
31 May 2011

Williams Technical Director Sam Michael has pointed a finger at neither Lewis Hamilton nor Pastor Maldonado for the incident which took the Venezuelan out of Sunday’s Monaco Grand Prix. While lying sixth and heading for a maiden Formula 1 points finish with just five laps to go, the car was put out of action at St. Devote corner.

“It was a racing incident,” Michael said briefly in a Tuesday review of the race from Williams. However, after the coming together, Rubens Barrichello was able to cross the line in ninth to pick up the Grove outfit’s first two points of 2011.

“It was great for everyone involved to get some points on the board and we must thank Rubens for bringing home our first of the season,” Michael commented. “It was however, somewhat bittersweet because Pastor was looking good for a big points haul.”

[Alex Langheck]

It takes two for a successful overtake - if the person being overtaken doesn't accept this and turns in - what is the overtaker supposed to do? Disappear...
Remember Panis on Irvine at the same spot in 1996? Don't remember a penalty for that? Schuey overtook Lewis and Rosberg at the same place, they both saw it and allowed the move to happen. They could have been boneheaded and turned in, like Massa...

[CaptainRaiden]

Thanks SGWilko for the link. These pictures need to be embedded.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8572/hamiltonmonaco2011t1.jpg

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/3797/hamiltonmonacoturn1b.jpg

He's actually closer to Maldonado than MS. Clearly Maldonado turned in way too soon.

[CNR]

after seeing the interview in full last night i think it has been beaten up to make it look worse then it was

http://i51.tinypic.com/bdle1c.jpg
is google ads racist ?

[Daniel]

They're trying to make her less black! This is a whitewash!!!!!

[airshifter]

Lewis comes across like a spoiled prick in that interview. He should take some interview lessons from Kimi, and just keep his mouth mostly shut. :D

[Hawkmoon]

BzyHNoWP4uc

Onboard view of the Massa-Hamilton accident. Massa clearly takes a different and much tighter line at Loews than the Red Bull and Torro Rosso in front of him and turns in much sooner. Why? Was he trying to overtake Webber? But Webber was already past the corner. Hamilton's nose was at Massa's sidepod when he turned in to him. Surely he could have seen this in his mirrors?

Hamilton has his car half up the the side of the Ferrari but Massa has already made a move to the left before Hamilton gets there. He makes another move to the left after Hamilton has stuck it up the inside. Hamilton must have seen Massa moving left and decided to chuck it up the inside anyway. Pause it at the 15 second mark, just before the two cars collide. I don't think Massa has anywhere to go. If he goes right he tags Webber left rear with his front wing, which is something that happens anyway when the Ferrari is pushed to the right after the impact with the McLaren. Massa could have given Hamilton more room but Hamilton was being way too optimistic to think that pass was going to stick. Even if he had passed the Ferrari Massa had the line for the next right hander and Hamilton would have had to fall in behind him.

[Big Ben]

Hamilton should know by now he can't do that with Massa. It's quite usual to see an overtaking on Massa ending up with a contact. He doesn't know how to defend or went to quit. It's a deadly combination.

[CaptainRaiden]

Hamilton has his car half up the the side of the Ferrari but Massa has already made a move to the left before Hamilton gets there. He makes another move to the left after Hamilton has stuck it up the inside. Hamilton must have seen Massa moving left and decided to chuck it up the inside anyway. Pause it at the 15 second mark, just before the two cars collide. I don't think Massa has anywhere to go. If he goes right he tags Webber left rear with his front wing, which is something that happens anyway when the Ferrari is pushed to the right after the impact with the McLaren. Massa could have given Hamilton more room but Hamilton was being way too optimistic to think that pass was going to stick. Even if he had passed the Ferrari Massa had the line for the next right hander and Hamilton would have had to fall in behind him.

Your last sentence is exactly what I have said earlier in this thread. If only Massa had been a bit more patient, taken the usual line at Loews, given Lewis a bit more room, he still would have gotten ahead at Portier damage free and would have been the car ahead entering the tunnel. Also agreed that Lewis was a bit too eager. Racecraft error from both drivers there.

I watched onboard videos of a lot of cars going through Loews, and it seems the only proper line is what the Torro Rosso and Webber took through there, otherwise you come out too close to the barriers on the right and you've gotta go extra wide on the left to make the apex for the next right hander. Like I said before, Massa was too far back to attempt an overtaking move on Webber, so it seems that he only moved early to block Hamilton. At which point Hamilton's front wing was already at Massa's sidepods. Also, Massa touched the back of Webber because Hamilton punted him, again as a result of Massa turning in too soon. If he had given Lewis a BIT more room, both cars would have made the corner damage free and Massa would still have been ahead. Or he just simply had to yield because Lewis was halfway through the overtaking and was obviously a much faster car. That's what Rosberg and Lewis did when MS overtook them at the same corner. They didn't HAVE to yield, but they did, showing better racecraft and patience, while taking care of their car understanding that this is Monaco.

[The Black Knight]

Your last sentence is exactly what I have said earlier in this thread. If only Massa had been a bit more patient, taken the usual line at Loews, given Lewis a bit more room, he still would have gotten ahead at Portier damage free and would have been the car ahead entering the tunnel. Also agreed that Lewis was a bit too eager. Racecraft error from both drivers there.

I watched onboard videos of a lot of cars going through Loews, and it seems the only proper line is what the Torro Rosso and Webber took through there, otherwise you come out too close to the barriers on the right and you've gotta go extra wide on the left to make the apex for the next right hander. Like I said before, Massa was too far back to attempt an overtaking move on Webber, so it seems that he only moved early to block Hamilton. At which point Hamilton's front wing was already at Massa's sidepods. Also, Massa touched the back of Webber because Hamilton punted him, again as a result of Massa turning in too soon. If he had given Lewis a BIT more room, both cars would have made the corner damage free and Massa would still have been ahead. Or he just simply had to yield because Lewis was halfway through the overtaking and was obviously a much faster car. That's what Rosberg and Lewis did when MS overtook them at the same corner. They didn't HAVE to yield, but they did, showing better racecraft and patience, while taking care of their car understanding that this is Monaco.

Great summarisation post. This is exactly what happened. Unfortunately it is all very easy for us to say this in hindsight. It should be a drivers natural race instinct to know where to place his car in the event of an overtaking maneouvre. The job of the car in front is to make it as tough as possible for his competitor to pass without them both touching. From Hamilton's point of view he was overly eager but from Massa's he clearly moved to block Hamilton, something he surely would have instinctively known was going to most likely end in contact. Either way both drivers were at fault but Hamilton was too far back to attempt and overtaking attempt on the first place.

Personally, I feel Massa won't be at Ferrari for long more. He isn't quick anymore, he shows bad judgement. He then comes out and asks for harsher penalty against Hamilton when he himself was part responsible for the accident. He's not the same Massa we knew and loved in 2008 and 2009. Such a shame. I can't imagine Ferrari being patient with him much longer, he simply isn't performing.

[Daniel]

Your last sentence is exactly what I have said earlier in this thread. If only Massa had been a bit more patient, taken the usual line at Loews, given Lewis a bit more room, he still would have gotten ahead at Portier damage free and would have been the car ahead entering the tunnel. Also agreed that Lewis was a bit too eager. Racecraft error from both drivers there.

I watched onboard videos of a lot of cars going through Loews, and it seems the only proper line is what the Torro Rosso and Webber took through there, otherwise you come out too close to the barriers on the right and you've gotta go extra wide on the left to make the apex for the next right hander. Like I said before, Massa was too far back to attempt an overtaking move on Webber, so it seems that he only moved early to block Hamilton. At which point Hamilton's front wing was already at Massa's sidepods. Also, Massa touched the back of Webber because Hamilton punted him, again as a result of Massa turning in too soon. If he had given Lewis a BIT more room, both cars would have made the corner damage free and Massa would still have been ahead. Or he just simply had to yield because Lewis was halfway through the overtaking and was obviously a much faster car. That's what Rosberg and Lewis did when MS overtook them at the same corner. They didn't HAVE to yield, but they did, showing better racecraft and patience, while taking care of their car understanding that this is Monaco.

Blah blah blah..... if only that guy hadn't been standing there when the bullet travelled through the same space that his head was occupying then he wouldn't be dead, it's clearly his fault he's dead not :dozey:

[The Black Knight]

Blah blah blah..... if only that guy hadn't been standing there when the bullet travelled through the same space that his head was occupying then he wouldn't be dead, it's clearly his fault he's dead not :dozey:

Actually, in this instance, it's more a case of "If only the guy hadn't moved into the path of the bullet as he saw it coming towards him". Let us get the analogy right please ;)

[MrJan]

Is there anything that's happened in F1 in recent years that has been blown out of proportion quite as much as this? Stupid driver makes stupid comment and all of a sudden the sport is falling apart.

What it has got me thinking though is why do we expect drivers to be so professional and always toe the line? Why do we expect drivers to be like Jenson and always speak the corperate speak, rather than Hamilton or Webber who speak out against their team etc. Put aside the issue of Lewis always blaming others (which is just a genuine dellusion on his part), what's so bad about speaking out about the stewards and his team? The rest of us know that the stewards make some weird choices (largely to do with lack of consistency) and that McLaren made a few mistakes during that race, and at a number of times over the years. Why is it reasonable to expect Lewis, or whoever the driver may be, to suck it up and lie about it all?

Incidentally, I'm as guilty as anyone in this. I've moaned about Alonso and Webber blaming their teams in the past, and I still think it's classless, but how many of us can say that we've never had a whinge about our employers at one time or another?

Edit: Oh and loving the 'visitors found this page by searching for..' bit for this thread :D

[Daniel]

Actually, in this instance, it's more a case of "If only the guy hadn't moved into the path of the bullet as he saw it coming towards him". Let us get the analogy right please ;)

You're missing the point, people shouldn't go around shooting at or around people...... just as drivers shouldn't try and send a rather hopeful one up the inside like Lewis did.

[CaptainRaiden]

Blah blah blah..... if only that guy hadn't been standing there when the bullet travelled through the same space that his head was occupying then he wouldn't be dead, it's clearly his fault he's dead not :dozey:

Blah indeed.

OT: Logitech and Microsoft suck serious monkey balls. I hope Microsoft buys Logitech and then goes bankrupt.


You're missing the point, people shouldn't go around shooting at or around people...... just as drivers shouldn't try and send a rather hopeful one up the inside like Lewis did.

Yeah, definitely, drivers shouldn't try to overtake in a "race" ever. Someone should have told this to Damon Hill and Jacques Villenueve when they came to overtake the painfully slow moving Schumacher on the track. The resulting accidents were of course their fault.

Now with the latest penalties, stewards have pretty much guaranteed a procession at any track that doesn't allow overtaking. Fans must be so happy. :)

[F1boat]

Is there anything that's happened in F1 in recent years that has been blown out of proportion quite as much as this?

I think that the accusations made by Lewis are pretty appalling and deserve the reaction they got...

[Daniel]

Blah indeed.

OT: Logitech and Microsoft suck serious monkey balls. I hope Microsoft buys Logitech and then goes bankrupt.



Yeah, definitely, drivers shouldn't try to overtake in a "race" ever. Someone should have told this to Damon Hill and Jacques Villenueve when they came to overtake the painfully slow moving Schumacher on the track. The resulting accidents were of course their fault.

Now with the latest penalties, stewards have pretty much guaranteed a procession at any track that doesn't allow overtaking. Fans must be so happy. :)
Ah yes, talking about other crap, the last refuge of a Hamilton fan who refuses to admit that his god did something wrong.

[The Black Knight]

You're missing the point, people shouldn't go around shooting at or around people...... just as drivers shouldn't try and send a rather hopeful one up the inside like Lewis did.

Now I think you're missing the point. What you're effectively saying there is that drivers shouldn't try and overtake.

[Daniel]

Now I think you're missing the point. What you're effectively saying there is that drivers shouldn't try and overtake.

No I'm not.

What you're effectively saying is that Lewis is a taco and Nicole is a tortilla. YES YOU ARE!!!!!!!

[CaptainRaiden]

Ah yes, talking about other crap, the last refuge of a Hamilton fan who refuses to admit that his god did something wrong.

I already said he was too overeager going for the Massa move. Eyes-needed-to-read. However, blatant Lewis haters should also look at the two incidents unbiased, sadly something which will never happen.

[Daniel]

I already said he was too overeager going for the Massa move. Eyes-needed-to-read. However, blatant Lewis haters should also look at the two incidents unbiased, sadly something which will never happen.

Thing is I'm not a Lewis hater....

[The Black Knight]

No I'm not.

What you're effectively saying is that Lewis is a taco and Nicole is a tortilla. YES YOU ARE!!!!!!!

http://www.empireofthekop.com/anfield/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DOUBLE-FACEPALM.jpg

[CaptainRaiden]

Thing is I'm not a Lewis hater....

And I am Clint Eastwood.

[Daniel]

http://www.empireofthekop.com/anfield/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DOUBLE-FACEPALM.jpg

:down: for incorrect use of Facepalm.....

[Daniel]

And I am Clint Eastwood.

There are many instances within the last year or two where I've said good things or expressed disappointment when Lewis has had bad luck.....

[SGWilko]

And I am Clint Eastwood.

Do you feel lucky punk? Well, do ya?

[SGWilko]

Personally, I think that the stewards, given some of their poor stewarding over recent years, need to be served with a stop go penalty: They should be stopped from going to a race ever again.

Daniel should be sent instead, so he can issue penalties such as;

Fluff, rental truck, kitten, rolling countryside.........

.....blah blah ramaeulysees 3rd oops where's my thribble.....

[F1boat]

Now I think you're missing the point. What you're effectively saying there is that drivers shouldn't try and overtake.

As I said in other threads, other drivers did a lot of overtaking with no problems. Nobody crashed, nobody was hurt.

[CaptainRaiden]

There are many instances within the last year or two where I've said good things or expressed disappointment when Lewis has had bad luck.....

That's shocking to know, especially going by how you've been piling it on him since Sunday. :eek:


Do you feel lucky punk? Well, do ya?

I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it. B-)

[F1boat]

Not everybody who is appalled by Hamilton's driving in Monte is his hater. For me the accident with Massa was very problematic and I expect at least after the penalty for a driver to avoid dangerous moves. Pastor was also to blames, but, to compare situation to soccer, if you have a yellow card already, shouldn't you go a bit more carefully for the rest of the game?

[SGWilko]

As I said in other threads, other drivers did a lot of overtaking with no problems. Nobody crashed, nobody was hurt.

Massa arrived at the scene of his own accident, learning the painfully hard lesson that a Ferrari that connot heat its tyres and marbles in the Monaco tunnel just don't mix. How many times now has a Ferrari exited that tunnel with a wonky wheel on the front? :p

[555-04Q2]

Is there anything that's happened in F1 in recent years that has been blown out of proportion quite as much as this? Stupid driver makes stupid comment and all of a sudden the sport is falling apart.

What it has got me thinking though is why do we expect drivers to be so professional and always toe the line? Why do we expect drivers to be like Jenson and always speak the corperate speak, rather than Hamilton or Webber who speak out against their team etc. Put aside the issue of Lewis always blaming others (which is just a genuine dellusion on his part), what's so bad about speaking out about the stewards and his team? The rest of us know that the stewards make some weird choices (largely to do with lack of consistency) and that McLaren made a few mistakes during that race, and at a number of times over the years. Why is it reasonable to expect Lewis, or whoever the driver may be, to suck it up and lie about it all?

Incidentally, I'm as guilty as anyone in this. I've moaned about Alonso and Webber blaming their teams in the past, and I still think it's classless, but how many of us can say that we've never had a whinge about our employers at one time or another?

Edit: Oh and loving the 'visitors found this page by searching for..' bit for this thread :D

I like it when drivers speak out. Beats the prim and proper corporate cr@p they spew out as well as the blank look and silent treatment the likes of Kimi used to dish out.

[SGWilko]

I like it when drivers speak out.

I like it when teams allow their drivers to speak out. Journalists deliberately seek out drivers immediately after the race when the adrenaline is still pumping but the physical excertion of driving has ceased, because they know feelings run high and the soundbites are so much better than a "no comment"

On a lighter note, who is off to the cinema this Friday?

[555-04Q2]

On a lighter note, who is off to the cinema this Friday?

Elaborate...

[MrJan]

I think that the accusations made by Lewis are pretty appalling and deserve the reaction they got...

It wasn't an accusation, that's the point, he made a silly little comment in jest because he feels a bit victimised. Many F1 fans feel that the stewards and FIA have been biased in the past, so it seems logical that drivers feel the same. What Lewis said wasn't an actual claim that the stewards are racist, it was a spur of the moment quip that came across wrong. I personally thought that this was clear, although I guess it was inevitable that people would take it the wrong way and make a fuss.

The real shame is that this has overshadowed a Monaco GP that actually had proper overtaking and was exciting to the end. What a sad case that one remark from a driver can take more attention than some top level racing.

[MrJan]

Elaborate...

Relase of Senna in the UK, which means I'll be trawling the South West to find a cinema that is showing it :D

[SGWilko]

Elaborate...

Might not apply to SA residents, but 3rd June sees the release of Senna......

[SGWilko]

All this hoo ha over Hamilton, and not a mention about Sutil/Kobyashi at the corner before the hairpin.

Can't put my finger on why that is.........

[The Black Knight]

:down: for incorrect use of Facepalm.....
It's correct you just don't get it.

[Daniel]

Personally, I think that the stewards, given some of their poor stewarding over recent years, need to be served with a stop go penalty: They should be stopped from going to a race ever again.

Daniel should be sent instead, so he can issue penalties such as;

Fluff, rental truck, kitten, rolling countryside.........

.....blah blah ramaeulysees 3rd oops where's my thribble.....

:up: Someone gets it ;)

[555-04Q2]

Might not apply to SA residents, but 3rd June sees the release of Senna......

:up: Forgot about that.

[Daniel]

It's correct you just don't get it.

No, you just don't understand what I said.....

[555-04Q2]

I don't think either of you get it..... :p : ;)

[The Black Knight]

As I said in other threads, other drivers did a lot of overtaking with no problems. Nobody crashed, nobody was hurt.

DiResta might tend to think different.

Anyway, those of us who know and are willing to see that the Maldonado incident was clearly not Lewis's fault have done more then enough. I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary to suggest Lewis did anything wrong. There has been video and picture evidence shown in this thread that clearly shows Hamilton was in the clear and correct to attempt and overtake.

I'm waiting for evidence from the anti-Hamilton brigade to show how he was wrong in the Maldonado incident. Those that say he took his normal line are wrong, he clearly didn't as that line is not used by any driver on a regular lap. I woudln't see a Junior Karter take that line.

So I put to those anti-Hamilton folks, show us evidence that conveys how Hamilton was wrong in the Maldonado incident. It's the same for the Massa incident really but clearly Lewis was a bit too opportunistic there but Massa did turn in on him taking an incorrect line into Loews.

[The Black Knight]

All this hoo ha over Hamilton, and not a mention about Sutil/Kobyashi at the corner before the hairpin.

Can't put my finger on why that is.........

It's like Senna said, "Because he is out front"

[SGWilko]

It's like Senna said, "Because he is out front"

"If I see a gap - I go for it. The moment you don't go for that gap, you are no longer a racing driver". That sort of thing you mean?

[The Black Knight]

"If I see a gap - I go for it. The moment you don't go for that gap, you are no longer a racing driver". That sort of thing you mean?

Exactly!

[Daniel]

All this hoo ha over Hamilton, and not a mention about Sutil/Kobyashi at the corner before the hairpin.

Can't put my finger on why that is.........

Because Kobayashi didn't blame Sutil for it and say "It's because I've got slanty eyes isn't it!!!!!"

[MrJan]

So I put to those anti-Hamilton folks, show us evidence that conveys how Hamilton was wrong in the Maldonado incident. It's the same for the Massa incident really but clearly Lewis was a bit too opportunistic there but Massa did turn in on him taking an incorrect line into Loews.

I don't get why people are defending the move on Massa. I'm an out and out LH fan, I cut him more slack than a lot of people, but that move on Massa was only going to end with contact. The Maldonado one is what I've got an issue with, because it was basically the same move Lewis had pulled on Schumi earlier in the race.

[MrJan]

Because Kobayashi didn't blame Sutil for it?

It was far more black & white (pun intended) than any of Lewis' **** ups though. Koba just punted Sutil round.

[Daniel]

"If I see a gap - I go for it. The moment you don't go for that gap, you are no longer a racing driver". That sort of thing you mean?

I don't seem to remember the part of the sporting regulations that says "If Senna says it then it's part of the sporting regs" :confused:

[MrJan]

I don't seem to remember the part of the sporting regulations that says "If Senna says it then it's part of the sporting regs" :confused:

We all know that the sporting regs and their application is all subjective anyway, that's exactly why the penalties and decisions lack any degree of consistency. It's the same in most sports though.

[SGWilko]

but that move on Massa was only going to end with contact.

Not necessarily it wasn't. Rosberg could have (but crucially, did not) turned in on the Shoe, and the Shoe could have (but......) did not turn in on Lewis. Massa chose to turn in, Lewis did not invite him to do so. You need to look at the Shoe's move on Nico, from as far back as Lewis, and then listen to the commentary. Then contracst that to the Massa/Lewis move, and listen to the commentary. I think it is about this point that MB points out that an overtake requires a willing opponent.

Kudos to Lewis for trying. There are quite a few elsewhere on this 'ere forum slagging JB for not trying to pass Alonso...

Damned if you do, buggered senseless to clowns pocket proportions if you don't!

[Daniel]

It was far more black & white (pun intended) than any of Lewis' **** ups though. Koba just punted Sutil round.
Fair point.

I don't get why people are defending the move on Massa. I'm an out and out LH fan, I cut him more slack than a lot of people, but that move on Massa was only going to end with contact. The Maldonado one is what I've got an issue with, because it was basically the same move Lewis had pulled on Schumi earlier in the race.
:up:
True enough, but Schumacher didn't NEED to let Hamilton through, Hamilton never would have made the apex if Schumacher had chosen the racing line. Schumacher got criticised for what happened with petrov in Turkey so he chose to let the position go and keep on going. Imagine if Schumacher had done the same as Maldonado, imagine the stink over that.......

[Daniel]

Not necessarily it wasn't. Rosberg could have (but crucially, did not) turned in on the Shoe, and the Shoe could have (but......) did not turn in on Lewis. Massa chose to turn in, Lewis did not invite him to do so. You need to look at the Shoe's move on Nico, from as far back as Lewis, and then listen to the commentary. Then contracst that to the Massa/Lewis move, and listen to the commentary. I think it is about this point that MB points out that an overtake requires a willing opponent.

Kudos to Lewis for trying. There are quite a few elsewhere on this 'ere forum slagging JB for not trying to pass Alonso...

Damned if you do, buggered senseless to clowns pocket proportions if you don't!

Oh come on, Schumacher was alongside Rosberg and wasn't just sticking his nose in.

[The Black Knight]

I don't get why people are defending the move on Massa. I'm an out and out LH fan, I cut him more slack than a lot of people, but that move on Massa was only going to end with contact. The Maldonado one is what I've got an issue with, because it was basically the same move Lewis had pulled on Schumi earlier in the race.

I'd agree with you. The Massa incident was mainly Hammy's fault. Massa is allowed to move once to defend his position and he did that. Saying that he could have avoided it by taking the normal racing line, it was avoidable if Massa chose. There was a little fault on his side as well.

[SGWilko]

I don't seem to remember the part of the sporting regulations that says "If Senna says it then it's part of the sporting regs" :confused:

Is there a point in racing with that view then?

[The Black Knight]

Fair point.

:up:
True enough, but Schumacher didn't NEED to let Hamilton through, Hamilton never would have made the apex if Schumacher had chosen the racing line. Schumacher got criticised for what happened with petrov in Turkey so he chose to let the position go and keep on going. Imagine if Schumacher had done the same as Maldonado, imagine the stink over that.......

Yeah, Schumacher would have been blamed by the very same people that are attacking Hamilton now.

It's funny people's perspective based on the drivers they support/like :D

[The Black Knight]

Not necessarily it wasn't. Rosberg could have (but crucially, did not) turned in on the Shoe, and the Shoe could have (but......) did not turn in on Lewis. Massa chose to turn in, Lewis did not invite him to do so. You need to look at the Shoe's move on Nico, from as far back as Lewis, and then listen to the commentary. Then contracst that to the Massa/Lewis move, and listen to the commentary. I think it is about this point that MB points out that an overtake requires a willing opponent.

Kudos to Lewis for trying. There are quite a few elsewhere on this 'ere forum slagging JB for not trying to pass Alonso...

Damned if you do, buggered senseless to clowns pocket proportions if you don't!

I'll have to look at the Schumacher/Rosberg overtake again, I thought Schumacher was closer than Hamilton was.

[Daniel]

DiResta might tend to think different.

Anyway, those of us who know and are willing to see that the Maldonado incident was clearly not Lewis's fault have done more then enough. I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary to suggest Lewis did anything wrong. There has been video and picture evidence shown in this thread that clearly shows Hamilton was in the clear and correct to attempt and overtake.

I'm waiting for evidence from the anti-Hamilton brigade to show how he was wrong in the Maldonado incident. Those that say he took his normal line are wrong, he clearly didn't as that line is not used by any driver on a regular lap. I woudln't see a Junior Karter take that line.

So I put to those anti-Hamilton folks, show us evidence that conveys how Hamilton was wrong in the Maldonado incident. It's the same for the Massa incident really but clearly Lewis was a bit too opportunistic there but Massa did turn in on him taking an incorrect line into Loews.

My god, your ability to argue a point is incredibly poor.


Anyway, those of us who know and are willing to see that the Maldonado incident was clearly not Lewis's fault have done more then enough. I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary to suggest Lewis did anything wrong. There has been video and picture evidence shown in this thread that clearly shows Hamilton was in the clear and correct to attempt and overtake.


Anyway, those of us who think that the Maldonado incident was clearly not Lewis's fault have done more then enough by purely thinking that Lewis wasn't at fault. I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary to suggest Lewis did anything wrong other than the fact that he never even made the apex of the corner. There has been video and picture evidence shown in this thread that clearly shows Hamilton was in the clear and correct to attempt and overtake because by law Maldonado MUST drive in the same manner as Schumacher if he's being overtaken by Hamilton.

Your posts are no more than poorly reasoned rubbish that you think is right for all the wrong nonsensical reasons.

[SGWilko]

Oh come on, Schumacher was alongside Rosberg and wasn't just sticking his nose in.

Seriously, have you watched and compared the two moves? Very similar they are indeed actually.....

[Daniel]

Is there a point in racing with that view then?

What view?

[Mark]

Can we all cool down please, I don't want to have to close this thread.

[The Black Knight]

My god, your ability to argue a point is incredibly poor.


Your posts are no more than poorly reasoned rubbish that you think is right for all the wrong nonsensical reasons.

They are must better than your reasons my dear man. You haven't been able to convey in any single post a single reason why you believe Hamilton was at fault for Maldonado incident. All you've said is this is the way it should be because x y z. There have been images showing Hammy overtaking Schumacher and Maldonado incident alongside each other and no one has yet been able to show how Hamilton deserved to be penalised for it. Can you? Doubtful. You're happy to blame Lewis without opening your eyes because it suits you, not because it's actually fair.

Here's an example of your great contributions to this thread each one as **** as the next:


Oh come on, Schumacher was alongside Rosberg and wasn't just sticking his nose in.
Oh yeah, this is epic reasoning.

I don't seem to remember the part of the sporting regulations that says "If Senna says it then it's part of the sporting regs"
Another pointless contribution.
I could go on but I don't think I need to really. Go back to sleep baba.

[MrJan]

True enough, but Schumacher didn't NEED to let Hamilton through, Hamilton never would have made the apex if Schumacher had chosen the racing line. Schumacher got criticised for what happened with petrov in Turkey so he chose to let the position go and keep on going. Imagine if Schumacher had done the same as Maldonado, imagine the stink over that.......

But that could be said of the majority of passes, not least the JB/LH battle in Turkey. The whole thing with passing is that you need to trust that the other person is going to spot you and allow space. As you rightly mention the Schumi/Petrov thing in Turkey is an example of where this hasn't happened, likewise I feel the same about Hamilton/Maldonado this weekend. If drivers are always going to aim for the racing line and not give space to a car up the inside then we're going to be back to a rather tedious sport.

Incidentally, would people still be as annoyed by the Maldonado move if Hamilton hadn't already been involved in so much chaos? I suspect that many would have been happier to label it a 'racing incident', I certainly suspect that the stewards would've.

[Mark]

Can we all cool down please, I don't want to have to close this thread.

I don't like having to repeat myself :hmh:

[SGWilko]

Fair point.

:up:
True enough, but Schumacher didn't NEED to let Hamilton through, Hamilton never would have made the apex if Schumacher had chosen the racing line. Schumacher got criticised for what happened with petrov in Turkey so he chose to let the position go and keep on going. Imagine if Schumacher had done the same as Maldonado, imagine the stink over that.......

The Shoe had the intelligence to work out for himself that if he turned in on Lewis and made contact - he (the Shoe) would likelt end up in the barrier. Maldonado appears to be doing his learning the hard way, and is borne out by the Williams team not jumping up and down.

At some point, it will be accepted that Monaco is a narrow track, and without an intelligent opponent, overtakes will be risky. But if you are there to race, why not get on and race?

The stewards are clearly hell bent on becoming the new H&S nimbys and are on a mission to stifle what little overtaking there is at Monaco........

[MrJan]

Can we all cool down please, I don't want to have to close this thread.

Yeah please don't, in amongst the bickering there's some good debate :)

[The Black Knight]

What view?

Oh look another superb post from Daniel :D

[MrJan]

The stewards are clearly hell bent on becoming the new H&S nimbys and are on a mission to stifle what little overtaking there is at Monaco........

If we're talking H&S then I think we have to ask the question has F1 outgrown Monaco? Someone asked it on the Beeb and I did wonder. It's obviously great to see racing around the track, and the drivers love it, but we had some pretty nasty accidents this weekend (admittedly a higher ride height would probably have stopped 2 of them). Already it's been announced that the run off at the chicane will be moved back, but will another 50 yards have made much difference to Perez's accident?

[Daniel]

The Shoe had the intelligence to work out for himself that if he turned in on Lewis and made contact - he (the Shoe) would likelt end up in the barrier. Maldonado appears to be doing his learning the hard way, and is borne out by the Williams team not jumping up and down.

At some point, it will be accepted that Monaco is a narrow track, and without an intelligent opponent, overtakes will be risky. But if you are there to race, why not get on and race?

The stewards are clearly hell bent on becoming the new H&S nimbys and are on a mission to stifle what little overtaking there is at Monaco........
Tbh Maldonado would do well to do that the next time Hamilton tries it. The drivers will know he's not a pushover..... Maldonado did nothing wrong other than take his line...... If there was a wall there then Hamilton never would have tried it.

[SGWilko]

If we're talking H&S then I think we have to ask the question has F1 outgrown Monaco? Someone asked it on the Beeb and I did wonder. It's obviously great to see racing around the track, and the drivers love it, but we had some pretty nasty accidents this weekend (admittedly a higher ride height would probably have stopped 2 of them). Already it's been announced that the run off at the chicane will be moved back, but will another 50 yards have made much difference to Perez's accident?

Have a look at Joe Sawards' blog, there is an entry about a possible (locals don't like the idea though) of extending out to the sea and extending the track thus by-passing the tunnel.

I think the on/off nature of some of the less sophisticated EBD designs may well have contributed to the instability of cars braking on the limit over the bump on the exit of the tunnel.

I hope that Monaco remains on the calendar. Stewards attemps at stifling the racing aside, we have seen this year that you can make passes here, and it is such a unique event that warrants its inclusion for years to come.

[Daniel]

Have a look at Joe Sawards' blog, there is an entry about a possible (locals don't like the idea though) of extending out to the sea and extending the track thus by-passing the tunnel.

I think the on/off nature of some of the less sophisticated EBD designs may well have contributed to the instability of cars braking on the limit over the bump on the exit of the tunnel.

I hope that Monaco remains on the calendar. Stewards attemps at stifling the racing aside, we have seen this year that you can make passes here, and it is such a unique event that warrants its inclusion for years to come.

A lot of passes were made and most of them without contact or at least significant contact :)

[The Black Knight]

Have a look at Joe Sawards' blog, there is an entry about a possible (locals don't like the idea though) of extending out to the sea and extending the track thus by-passing the tunnel.[/font][/size]

I think the on/off nature of some of the less sophisticated EBD designs may well have contributed to the instability of cars braking on the limit over the bump on the exit of the tunnel.

[size=100][font=Times New Roman]I hope that Monaco remains on the calendar. Stewards attemps at stifling the racing aside, we have seen this year that you can make passes here, and it is such a unique event that warrants its inclusion for years to come.
I would hate to see the tunnel by-passed. It is one of the most memorable scenes on the F1 calendar to see cars flat out through the tunnel. I remember watching it as a kid and thinking WOW. It always stuck out in memory and would be shame to leave it go.
It is a pity about the stewarding. What the FIA need is a clear rule book, like in soccer. There will always be room for interpretation and while I felt the stewards made great strides last year with the inclusion of an experienced driver on the stewards room, they have taken 10 steps backwards in 2011 so far.

[Daniel]

But that could be said of the majority of passes, not least the JB/LH battle in Turkey. The whole thing with passing is that you need to trust that the other person is going to spot you and allow space. As you rightly mention the Schumi/Petrov thing in Turkey is an example of where this hasn't happened, likewise I feel the same about Hamilton/Maldonado this weekend. If drivers are always going to aim for the racing line and not give space to a car up the inside then we're going to be back to a rather tedious sport.

Incidentally, would people still be as annoyed by the Maldonado move if Hamilton hadn't already been involved in so much chaos? I suspect that many would have been happier to label it a 'racing incident', I certainly suspect that the stewards would've.

I agree mostly. When you conver yourself in as much "glory" as Hamilton did this weekend then you're going to attract attention for all of your moves, it's as simple as that.

[Daniel]

I would hate to see the tunnel by-passed. It is one of the most memorable scenes on the F1 calendar to see cars flat out through the tunnel. I remember watching it as a kid and thinking WOW. It always stuck out in memory and would be shame to leave it go.
It is a pity about the stewarding. What the FIA need is a clear rule book, like in soccer. There will always be room for interpretation and while I felt the stewards made great strides last year with the inclusion of an experienced driver on the stewards room, they have taken 10 steps backwards in 2011 so far.

I take back what I've said, now that I've seen this stuff in a blog (I mean a blog!!!!! You can't just post opinion in a blog you know!!!!!) I realise that i was wrong and Lewis was right. Racist ****** stewards!!!!!!

[SGWilko]

I take back what I've said, now that I've seen this stuff in a blog (I mean a blog!!!!! You can't just post opinion in a blog you know!!!!!) I realise that i was wrong and Lewis was right. Racist ****** stewards!!!!!!

Huh? :confused:

[Mark]

The rules are quite clear, however F1 by it's very nature means that it's difficult to see who's at fault when you have limited visibility, momentum and the fact that decisions are made in fractions of a second. It's not the same as a footballer trying to kick someones legs away.

[MrJan]

The rules are quite clear, however F1 by it's very nature means that it's difficult to see who's at fault when you have limited visibility, momentum and the fact that decisions are made in fractions of a second. It's not the same as a footballer trying to kick someones legs away.

Even football raises quite a few fouls that divide opinion. I tend to think that we rely too much on seeing multiple angles and at different speeds, people seem to forget that it's not that simple. Like how Daniel posted that photo of Sutil coming back on the track with Hamilton a car's length away. It's all well and good as a still from outside the car, but at 100mph with your arse on the ground it's a fraction of a second decision.

[SGWilko]

The rules are quite clear, however F1 by it's very nature means that it's difficult to see who's at fault when you have limited visibility, momentum and the fact that decisions are made in fractions of a second. It's not the same as a footballer trying to kick someones legs away.

Interesting to get a viewpoint from Fred;

[quote="Fernando Alonso"]&#8220]

From: Looking back at Monaco « (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/05/31/looking-back-at-monaco/)

[Daniel]

Even football raises quite a few fouls that divide opinion. I tend to think that we rely too much on seeing multiple angles and at different speeds, people seem to forget that it's not that simple. Like how Daniel posted that photo of Sutil coming back on the track with Hamilton a car's length away. It's all well and good as a still from outside the car, but at 100mph with your arse on the ground it's a fraction of a second decision.

Very true. And I think you can't be too harsh on Hamilton for that. IMHO it's still his fault, but there was an accident happening in front and he was trying not to be part of it. If not for the other incidents I probably wouldn't have even mentioned it.

[The Black Knight]

The rules are quite clear, however F1 by it's very nature means that it's difficult to see who's at fault when you have limited visibility, momentum and the fact that decisions are made in fractions of a second. It's not the same as a footballer trying to kick someones legs away.

Of course it’s not the same and obviously in F1 a certain set of rules can’t be made, there are two many possible scenarios that can be played out but there needs to be more consistent policing of the rules or else we need the same stewards race after race that will make consistent decisions. The way it is right now I doubt even the drivers know what they can and can’t do and they are discouraging overtaking and in time that will ruin the show.

[SGWilko]

Even football raises quite a few fouls that divide opinion. I tend to think that we rely too much on seeing multiple angles and at different speeds, people seem to forget that it's not that simple. Like how Daniel posted that photo of Sutil coming back on the track with Hamilton a car's length away. It's all well and good as a still from outside the car, but at 100mph with your arse on the ground it's a fraction of a second decision.

Indeed - the way some of these (don't laugh) 'professional' footballers dive, you'd imagine that, if you dug a whole in the pitch and put some hair round it, theyd start licking it too...... :laugh:

[Mark]

tbh I think the majority of the time when drivers are handed penalties they aren't fair. We don't want a situation where drivers are afraid to try to overtake because they might end up in trouble with the stewards. Most of the time they completely mess up their race as a result anyway and the only time the stewards need to intervene is if e.g. a driver runs into someone and ruins their race but they carry on unaffected.

[SGWilko]

Very true. And I think you can't be too harsh on Hamilton for that. IMHO it's still his fault, but there was an accident happening in front and he was trying not to be part of it. If not for the other incidents I probably wouldn't have even mentioned it.

Daniel, have you become a born again Lewis supporter, or is this just the cynic in you 'avin' a lark'? ;)

[Daniel]

Indeed - the way some of these (don't laugh) 'professional' footballers dive, you'd imagine that, if you dug a whole in the pitch and put some hair round it, theyd start licking it too...... :laugh:

and IMHO anyone caught diving when there is obviously no contact should be banned for a few matches. I've nothing against Hamilton or footballers. I just think that Football would be better if there was more football and racing would be better without amateur hour antics as we saw this weekend from Hamilton.

[The Black Knight]

Indeed - the way some of these (don't laugh) 'professional' footballers dive, you'd imagine that, if you dug a whole in the pitch and put some hair round it, theyd start licking it too...... :laugh:

LMAO!

[SGWilko]

Of course it’s not the same and obviously in F1 a certain set of rules can’t be made, there are two many possible scenarios that can be played out but there needs to be more consistent policing of the rules or else we need the same stewards race after race that will make consistent decisions. The way it is right now I doubt even the drivers know what they can and can’t do and they are discouraging overtaking and in time that will ruin the show.

How would it (or wouldn't it) work, if an incident is presided over by all the drivers bar those involved, and a consensus of opinion derived like that, with a clear written statement from each driver supporting their decision?

Obviously, the decision being derived after the race!!!!!!!!

[Daniel]

Daniel, have you become a born again Lewis supporter, or is this just the cynic in you 'avin' a lark'? ;)

I supported him when he was first in F1, but tbh he's been involved in too many incidents for me too be a "fan" as such :) That said I've never been the sort of person who has a favourite drive in F1 :)

[Daniel]

How would it (or wouldn't it) work, if an incident is presided over by all the drivers bar those involved, and a consensus of opinion derived like that, with a clear written statement from each driver supporting their decision?

Too much to gain there though. Imagine if the driver 2nd in the championship had the chance to penalise vettel.....

[SGWilko]

and IMHO anyone caught diving when there is obviously no contact should be banned for a few matches. I've nothing against Hamilton or footballers. I just think that Football would be better if there was more football and racing would be better without amateur hour antics as we saw this weekend from Hamilton.

Football, presumably, is thus called because of the game. Motor racing is thus named you'd summise, because of the racing. If you dont try to pass, you'll never get by, will you?

[SGWilko]

Too much to gain there though. Imagine if the driver 2nd in the championship had the chance to penalise vettel.....

It would be derived by a majority, without the possibility of a single driver's opinion swaying the decision - hence the need for written submission.

[Daniel]

Football, presumably, is thus called because of the game. Motor racing is thus named you'd summise, because of the racing. If you dont try to pass, you'll never get by, will you?
Of course, but loads of other people got by this weekend without contact.

It would be derived by a majority, without the possibility of a single driver's opinion swaying the decision - hence the need for written submission.
But I think it's too open to being swayed. Simple as that.

[The Black Knight]

How would it (or wouldn't it) work, if an incident is presided over by all the drivers bar those involved, and a consensus of opinion derived like that, with a clear written statement from each driver supporting their decision?
I’d be Ok with that. There would probably have to be three options. Is it A’s fault, B’s fault or Racing Incident. Each driver the chooses from a piece of paper
Advantages:
A general good consensus from people within the sport and in touch with modern era ethics of what is acceptable or not.
It would be more consistent.
If one driver holds a gripe against another and simply decides to vote the other way then their vote would be negated by all other honest drivers.

Disadvantages:

There are too many incidents in one race to make this feasible.
None of the drivers would probably waste their time participating, as they already have a busy schedule.
All incidents would have to be investigated after the race, thus pretty much removing drive through penalties. This could result in many winners, podium and point changes post race.

What could be done is to have a few ex drivers as all the stewards room, say a panel of five and they choose themselves whose fault it was or a racing incident and the majority rules.

The main issue there would be to manage to get 5 ex drivers to steward any race.

[MrJan]

tbh I think the majority of the time when drivers are handed penalties they aren't fair. We don't want a situation where drivers are afraid to try to overtake because they might end up in trouble with the stewards. Most of the time they completely mess up their race as a result anyway and the only time the stewards need to intervene is if e.g. a driver runs into someone and ruins their race but they carry on unaffected.

Di Resta is a great example of this. He pulled a stupid move and lost his nose, in addition to the time lost he also had to pit, yet the stewards still felt he deserved a drive through. As a rookie driver who has behaved impeccably to date I think that a quiet word after the race would've sufficed. The real piss take was when Kobayashi wasn't penalised during the race for a far more obvious infringement

[The Black Knight]

How would it (or wouldn't it) work, if an incident is presided over by all the drivers bar those involved, and a consensus of opinion derived like that, with a clear written statement from each driver supporting their decision?

Obviously, the decision being derived after the race!!!!!!!!

I’d be Ok with that. There would probably have to be three options. Is it A’s fault, B’s fault or Racing Incident. Each driver the chooses from a piece of paper
Advantages:
A general good consensus from people within the sport and in touch with modern era ethics of what is acceptable or not.
It would be more consistent.
If one driver holds a gripe against another and simply decides to vote the other way then their vote would be negated by all other honest drivers.

Disadvantages:
There are too many incidents in one race to make this feasible.
None of the drivers would probably waste their time participating, as they already have a busy schedule.
All incidents would have to be investigated after the race, thus pretty much removing drive through penalties. This could result in many winners, podium and point changes post race.
What could be done is to have a few ex drivers as all the stewards room, say a panel of five and they choose themselves whose fault it was or a racing incident and the majority rules.
The main issue there would be to manage to get 5 ex drivers to steward any race.

[Daniel]

Di Resta is a great example of this. He pulled a stupid move and lost his nose, in addition to the time lost he also had to pit, yet the stewards still felt he deserved a drive through. As a rookie driver who has behaved impeccably to date I think that a quiet word after the race would've sufficed. The real piss take was when Kobayashi wasn't penalised during the race for a far more obvious infringement


I think Kobayashi escaped because of what happened not long after (as a result of what he did!)

[CaptainRaiden]

JYiNKYaviZI

Oh my word. He didn't even need his mirrors to see the vodafone symbol on the Mclaren's front wing on his right side, yet he still turned in, also after weaving twice on the main straight.

[Daniel]

JYiNKYaviZI

Oh my word. He didn't even need his mirrors to see the vodafone symbol on the Mclaren's front wing on his right side, yet he still turned in, also after weaving twice on the main straight.

What a dirty driver! When the road kinks right he goes right! He should have crashed into the wall like a good driver :rolleyes:

[CaptainRaiden]

What a dirty driver! When the road kinks right he goes right! He should have crashed into the wall like a good driver :rolleyes:

I know! Right? I also like how he displays how to properly use your ears, eyes and the rear view mirror. Obviously Hamilton should have just teleported from the side to the back of Maldonado again, since a successful overtaking is OBVIOUSLY 100% the chasing driver's responsibility. Damon Hill surely effed up his championship in 94 all by himself.

[The Black Knight]

I know! Right? I also like how he displays how to properly use your ears, eyes and the rear view mirror. Obviously Hamilton should have just teleported from the side to the back of Maldonado again, since a successful overtaking is OBVIOUSLY 100% the chasing driver's responsibility. Damon Hill surely effed up his championship in 94 all by himself.

And Villeneuve should have been penalised for overtaking Schumacher into dry sac in 97 Jerez. Their coming together was clearly his fault. Schumacher should have 9 championships.

[555-04Q2]

JYiNKYaviZI

Oh my word. He didn't even need his mirrors to see the vodafone symbol on the Mclaren's front wing on his right side, yet he still turned in, also after weaving twice on the main straight.

Dude, Hammys front wheel almost hit Mouldys rear wheel. He was also running out of space with the approaching right hand corner, which is why his whole car went over the kerb. I agree that Mouldy swerved twice down the straight which is supposed to be illegal, but when they got to the corner, it was only going to end in tears. Hammy should not have been where he was.

Now I am a big fan of Hammys driving and his gutsy overtakes (I think he is the best in F1 when it comes to overtaking) but on Sunday he was a complete idiot. Its like someone hit his Sato switch just before the start.

[MrJan]

Dude, Hammys front wheel almost hit Mouldys rear wheel. He was also running out of space with the approaching right hand corner, which is why his whole car went over the kerb. I agree that Mouldy swerved twice down the straight which is supposed to be illegal, but when they got to the corner, it was only going to end in tears. Hammy should not have been where he was.

He pulled virtually an identical move on Schumacher that ended fine, in fact it was supreme driving from both of them.

[555-04Q2]

Damon Hill surely effed up his championship in 94 all by himself.

Damon admitted in an interview a few years after he retired that yes, he had indeed messed up by trying to pass The Shoe in Oz 94. He said if he knew The Shoe had just gone off he would have waited until after the corner and tried. The Shoe placed his car in the corner and Damon ploughed into the side of him. The rest as they say is History.

[555-04Q2]

He pulled virtually an identical move on Schumacher that ended fine, in fact it was supreme driving from both of them.

Yes, but if you watch the race again you will see that at the corner entry Hammy was closer to The Shoe than he was to Mouldy, which is why the one worked out and the other didn't.

[MrJan]

Yes, but if you watch the race again you will see that at the corner entry Hammy was closer to The Shoe than he was to Mouldy, which is why the one worked out and the other didn't.

Not by a lot, and if I was in Hamilton's position then I'd certainly have expected Maldonado to have known the pass was coming.

[CaptainRaiden]

And Villeneuve should have been penalised for overtaking Schumacher into dry sac in 97 Jerez. Their coming together was clearly his fault. Schumacher should have 9 championships.

Couldn't have said it better myself. :up: Villeneuve clearly should have known what he was doing, he almost effed up his championship by trying to overtake in a "car race".


He pulled virtually an identical move on Schumacher that ended fine, in fact it was supreme driving from both of them.

I was going to say the exact same thing. The fact is that Lewis was actually further ahead at the same part of the track compared to his move on MS. The only difference is that Maldonado just turned sooner than he should have.

[555-04Q2]

Not by a lot, and if I was in Hamilton's position then I'd certainly have expected Maldonado to have known the pass was coming.

I agree that he should have realised that this is Hammy coming (an agressive and good passer as we all know) and that he is right here, but the reality was far different and Mouldy also had the racing line. Hammy should also have said to himself, "wonder if this new guy is gonna co-operate with me here?" Well he got his clue down the straight and the answer in the corner! Like I said, Hammy had his Sato switch on last Sunday.

[CaptainRaiden]

Dude, Hammys front wheel almost hit Mouldys rear wheel. He was also running out of space with the approaching right hand corner, which is why his whole car went over the kerb. I agree that Mouldy swerved twice down the straight which is supposed to be illegal, but when they got to the corner, it was only going to end in tears. Hammy should not have been where he was.

Now I am a big fan of Hammys driving and his gutsy overtakes (I think he is the best in F1 when it comes to overtaking) but on Sunday he was a complete idiot. Its like someone hit his Sato switch just before the start.

Do we agree on this?

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8572/hamiltonmonaco2011t1.jpg

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/3797/hamiltonmonacoturn1b.jpg

[555-04Q2]

The only difference is that Maldonado just turned sooner than he should have.

Turning on the racing line is not turning too early, its turning just right.

[CaptainRaiden]

Turning on the racing line is not turning too early, its turning just right.

Check out the car in front of Maldonado in the video between 00:06 and 00:09. Check where the car ahead turns to make the apex, THAT is the racing line. Now, check where Maldonado turns in. Come on, you don't have to be this biased. Even Sam Michael from Williams called it a racing incident. Nobody stops him from laying it into Hamilton, yet he didn't point his finger on him. Although what he meant when he said it was a "racing incident" is that his driver had a brain fart.

[555-04Q2]

Do we agree on this?

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8572/hamiltonmonaco2011t1.jpg

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/3797/hamiltonmonacoturn1b.jpg

Nope. Still pictures reveal nothing but a fraction of a moment in time. Watch the whole footage in real time and the two scenarios above are very similar indeed, but not identical.

[555-04Q2]

Check out the car in front of Maldonado in the video between 00:06 and 00:09. Check where the car ahead turns to make the apex, THAT is the racing line. Now, check where Maldonado turns in. Come on, you don't have to be this biased. Even Sam Michael from Williams called it a racing incident. Nobody stops him from laying it into Hamilton, yet he didn't point his finger on him. Although what he meant when he said it was a "racing incident" is that his driver had a brain fart.

From my couch and on my TV on Sunday and last night, the line taken by Mouldy was 99% the same taken by all the other drivers during the race. Maybe my TV is skew :p :

[CaptainRaiden]

Damon admitted in an interview a few years after he retired that yes, he had indeed messed up by trying to pass The Shoe in Oz 94. He said if he knew The Shoe had just gone off he would have waited until after the corner and tried. The Shoe placed his car in the corner and Damon ploughed into the side of him. The rest as they say is History.

Yeah, he probably should have waited for a wide open track, at least 20 meters wide to overtake Schumacher, not in a corner, obviously since Schumacher was dazed from the mighty huge shunt and couldn't use his rear view mirrors. :)

gr00HlaK-L0

[MrJan]

Turning on the racing line is not turning too early, its turning just right.

It's too early if there's someone inside you ;)

When you watch the in car from Hamilton it's hardly an out of the way attempt at a pass, it's not even like the move that Schumi pulled on Lewis in the first lap.

[CaptainRaiden]

Nope. Still pictures reveal nothing but a fraction of a moment in time. Watch the whole footage in real time and the two scenarios above are very similar indeed, but not identical.

But do you see the third and fourth frame in the first picture to see how much Maldonado moved compared to MS at the same part of the track, take a look at the green lines, and Hamilton is almost at the exact same inside line. One maneuver was successful, the other was a disaster. Passer was the same guy, passee was different. Who's at fault?

[555-04Q2]

But do you see the third and fourth frame in the first picture to see how much Maldonado moved compared to MS at the same part of the track, take a look at the green lines, and Hamilton is almost at the exact same inside line. One maneuver was successful, the other was a disaster. Passer was the same guy, passee was different. Who's at fault?

I think one wise head saw the inevitable if he didn't give way, the other not so wise one said stuff you I ain't moving. Either way, Hammy got lucky once out of two. Like it was said on Sunday, passing is a 50/50 chance at Monaco. Hammy should have stuck with the numbers.

[555-04Q2]

It's too early if there's someone inside you ;)

Not if he shouldn't be there ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

I think one wise head saw the inevitable if he didn't give way, the other not so wise one said stuff you I ain't moving. Either way, Hammy got lucky once out of two. Like it was said on Sunday, passing is a 50/50 chance at Monaco. Hammy should have stuck with the numbers.

Yeah, numbers made up by an also-ran has-been Brundle. What you call luck was common sense displayed by two drivers. In the next two moves, not so much. A quick flick to the right without using his rear view mirrors is what ended Maldonado's impressive race on Sunday.

[555-04Q2]

Yeah, numbers made up by an also-ran has-been Brundle. What you call luck was common sense displayed by two drivers. In the next two moves, not so much. A quick flick to the right without using his rear view mirrors is what ended Maldonado's impressive race on Sunday.

Stated by Fernando Alonso and merely quoted by also-ran has-been (we agree on something else here) Brundle.

[SGWilko]

Turning on the racing line is not turning too early, its turning just right.

Not when there is a faster car by your side pulling off an overtake it isn't.... Are you trying to tell me that the DRS zone is there so that drivers can just turn in on and fend off the faster DRS enabled car legitimately???

[SGWilko]

Not if he shouldn't be there ;)

It's the DRS straight, there to facilitate an overtake. Is that so farcical a notion to comprehend? :)

[Big Ben]

I must say I don't even know what the rules say or if there's any rule covering this problem but can one driver (maldonado) just turn into someone (Hamilton) just because that's his/the racing line? I would think real life rules should apply. You shouldn't try to use a piece of road covered at the moment by another car.

Anyway... 20 pages about this. That's quite a lot even for a bad joke :laugh: .

[Mark]

No, if another car is alongside you, you can't turn in just because that's what you would have done if they weren't there!

[SGWilko]

No, if another car is alongside you, you can't turn in just because that's what you would have done if they weren't there!

But if you do, you cause the other guy to be penalised. Welcome to modern F1! :p

[555-04Q2]

No, if another car is alongside you, you can't turn in just because that's what you would have done if they weren't there!

Yes you can. Mouldy proved that ;)

[555-04Q2]

Not when there is a faster car by your side pulling off an overtake it isn't.... Are you trying to tell me that the DRS zone is there so that drivers can just turn in on and fend off the faster DRS enabled car legitimately???

I would like to think that defending your position legitimately is acceptable :)

[The Black Knight]

I agree that he should have realised that this is Hammy coming (an agressive and good passer as we all know) and that he is right here, but the reality was far different and Mouldy also had the racing line. Hammy should also have said to himself, "wonder if this new guy is gonna co-operate with me here?" Well he got his clue down the straight and the answer in the corner! Like I said, Hammy had his Sato switch on last Sunday.

He had the racing line till he went off it to block Hamilton. The line he took is not the racing line :D

[555-04Q2]

He had the racing line till he went off it to block Hamilton. The line he took is not the racing line :D

I'm gonna have to watch the race again tonight cause some of you buggers are saying the opposite to what I'm sure I saw :p :

[Daniel]

Do we agree on this?

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8572/hamiltonmonaco2011t1.jpg

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/3797/hamiltonmonacoturn1b.jpg

And if Schumacher drove off a cliff should Maldonado done so as well? :rolleyes:

[CaptainRaiden]

And if Schumacher drove off a cliff should Maldonado done so as well? :rolleyes:

Definitely not. If one person shows common sense and racecraft, another person is definitely not "supposed" to follow suit. But should he? Probably yes.

[The Black Knight]

I'm gonna have to watch the race again tonight cause some of you buggers are saying the opposite to what I'm sure I saw :p :

Just look at the pictures posted above. It's clear that Maldonado left the racing line.

[The Black Knight]

Definitely not. If one person shows common sense and racecraft, another person is definitely not "supposed" to follow suit. But should he? Probably yes.

One would imagine but that's probably not really the case because it suits his "argument".

[Big Ben]

How was Maldonado supposed to know what Schumi had done? His common sense was quite surprising actually. I'm quite sure he was doing what he thought Schumi would do :p :

[SGWilko]

And if Schumacher drove off a cliff should Maldonado done so as well? :rolleyes:

It is reasonable to use other cars lines through corners (uncontested) to establish the genarally accepted 'racing line' - that is the line of least resistance that allows you take the corner at the fastest speed.

When you are defending from a faster car, it is accepted to deviate from this racing line in order to prevent the move from being attempted - permitted blocking.

Retrospectively applying this 'blocking' once the overtake is being made does not constitute permitted blocking - especially if to attempt the block requires the use of track already occupied by the overtaking car.

Irrespective of whether or not another car decides to drive 'off a cliff' common sense and a modicom of driving etiquette should be displayed.

[CaptainRaiden]

What also amazes me is that Maldonado was clearly aware that Hamilton was right on his tailpipes, I mean he swerved twice on the main straight to block him. So, did he think that Hamilton just disappeared at Sainte Devote? If he looked in his right rear view mirror, it would have been full of silver, yet he turned in early? OR as some people here claim, made a turn on the "normal racing line." :rolleyes: Besides it's impossible not to hear the Mercedes V8 behind him. If I can hear a 0.8L V2 crapola engine behind me with my helmet and ear plugs on in a entry level single seater car race in India, I'm sure Pastor would have at least heard that Mercedes roar. That's at least how Alonso described it a few years ago when Kimi was catching him.

[CaptainRaiden]

How was Maldonado supposed to know what Schumi had done? His common sense was quite surprising actually. I'm quite sure he was doing what he thought Schumi would do :p :

:laugh: :laugh:

[SGWilko]

Mercedes roar. That's at least how Alonso described it a few years ago when Kimi was catching him.

It's generally accepted that in Kimi's McLaren days, the Mercedes 'roar' was followed in quick succession by internal engine parts and hot liquids exiting a holed engine block.... :p

[Daniel]

Whatever. You guys are ridiculous.

[SGWilko]

Whatever. You guys are ridiculous.

Awwww, shucks - you're just sayin' that....... ;)

[Bagwan]

In those pics , it is clear that the shoe was closer to the racing line .
From there he had a chance to slow it down to make the corner , despite Lewis to his right .

It's also clear that Maldonado was a car width closer in , and there was much less chance for the same move .

The shoe's choice was to let him go , as he had room to do it .

Pastor had the choice of either going into the wall out side , as he had entered tighter , or going for the apex , as he did .

It did not intimidate Lewis , to go into a much tighter spot , but it should have , as Pastor had already shown his intentions .


Remember that when you compare the two , that the shoe had entered wider , expecting a move .
Pastor , having entered tighter , would perhaps have expected Lewis to have backed of , knowing there was no room .

Pastor failed to intimidate Lewis , and when Lewis went in , there was no way to get through the corner for Pastor without trying for that apex .

In fact , it's unlikely Lewis would have made the corner at those speeds and that angle , if Pastor had not been there , as he was very far from the racing line , on dirty and un-rubbered track .

[Mia 01]

I think Lewis will be fine, he will eventually learn how to drive fair when only very few wins and no WDC comes his way.

[The Black Knight]

In those pics , it is clear that the shoe was closer to the racing line .
From there he had a chance to slow it down to make the corner , despite Lewis to his right .

It's also clear that Maldonado was a car width closer in , and there was much less chance for the same move .

The shoe's choice was to let him go , as he had room to do it .

Pastor had the choice of either going into the wall out side , as he had entered tighter , or going for the apex , as he did .

It did not intimidate Lewis , to go into a much tighter spot , but it should have , as Pastor had already shown his intentions .


Remember that when you compare the two , that the shoe had entered wider , expecting a move .
Pastor , having entered tighter , would perhaps have expected Lewis to have backed of , knowing there was no room .

Pastor failed to intimidate Lewis , and when Lewis went in , there was no way to get through the corner for Pastor without trying for that apex .

In fact , it's unlikely Lewis would have made the corner at those speeds and that angle , if Pastor had not been there , as he was very far from the racing line , on dirty and un-rubbered track .

Wrong. Pastor had the choice of going straight on and turning in later to the corner or turning in on Lewis to cause the accident which was avoidable. He chose to turn in on Lewis.

By this logic, I think that Schumacher was completely in his right to push Barrichello into the pit lane wall in Hungary. Schumacher had the choice of either going to the left hand side of the pit straight , as he was coming towards the first corner tighter, or going for the apex , as he did :D

I'm a Schumacher fan and always thought he was wrong there but I'm now beginning to think he was right.

[CaptainRaiden]

It's generally accepted that in Kimi's McLaren days, the Mercedes 'roar' was followed in quick succession by internal engine parts and hot liquids exiting a holed engine block.... :p

:laugh: Probably that is what Alonso was referring to. The Mercedes roar coming closer, then the sound of a big blast fading away.

[Daniel]

Wrong. Pastor had the choice of going straight on and turning in later to the corner or turning in on Lewis to cause the accident which was avoidable. He chose to turn in on Lewis. By this logic, I think that Schumacher was completely in his right to push Barrichello into the pit lane wall in Hungary. Schumacher had the choice of either going into the wall out side , as he had entered tighter , or going for the apex , as he did :D

So basically everyone should let everyone through? Can you please stop typing your text in somewhere else then pasting it into the forum, the font and size tags are annoying.

[The Black Knight]

So basically everyone should let everyone through? Can you please stop typing your text in somewhere else then pasting it into the forum, the font and size tags are annoying.

Nope, but Pastor could have tried to drive around Lewis other than into him.

Ah so the pasting is what was causing that. That was infuriating me having to delete those all the time.

[Daniel]

Nope, but Pastor could have tried to drive around Lewis other than into him.

Ah so the pasting is what was causing that. That was infuriating me having to delete those all the time.

So basically Pastor had to move off the racing line and let Lewis through?

[555-04Q2]

Just look at the pictures posted above. It's clear that Maldonado left the racing line.

I have to agree to disagree with that view as my view overrides your view which is viewed from a view that is inferior to mine and wrong as it does not agree with my disagreement on this subject that you refuse to agree to agree with me that my view should be your view and therefore is the right view :p :

[The Black Knight]

So basically Pastor had to move off the racing line and let Lewis through?

He moved off the racing line to block him. If he had kept the racing line there was c chance he would have kept the position and neither would have collided.

[Bagwan]

Wrong. Pastor had the choice of going straight on and turning in later to the corner or turning in on Lewis to cause the accident which was avoidable. He chose to turn in on Lewis.

By this logic, I think that Schumacher was completely in his right to push Barrichello into the pit lane wall in Hungary. Schumacher had the choice of either going to the left hand side of the pit straight , as he was coming towards the first corner tighter, or going for the apex , as he did :D

I'm a Schumacher fan and always thought he was wrong there but I'm now beginning to think he was right.

Ok , so , you know about momentum , right ?

Pastor was tighter in , and had he tried to leave another car width for Lewis to go into , he would , indeed , have been going straight .
That is , straight for the wall .
By the time Pastor was a car-width inside of the ideal racing line , it should have been clear to Lewis that his rival would not get through that corner without going for the apex .

Lewis , by that time , was the only one with a choice .
His choice was to either try to intimidate a guy who had no other choice but the wall , or dodge right to cut to the inside of those curbs .

Now , to be fair , Lewis didn't exactly have a lot of time to think in that moment , but then , his moment to think was a few moments earlier , when he went in on a guy clearly defending hard , with a line , a car-width inside the ideal .

He was right to go in , earlier , when he diced with the shoe , as he knew from the shoe's line , that it was possible .

But , hey , now he knows that Ste. Devote can sting you , even if your name is Lewis .

[The Black Knight]

I have to agree to disagree with that view as my view overrides your view which is viewed from a view that is inferior to mine and wrong as it does not agree with my disagreement on this subject that you refuse to agree to agree with me that my view should be your view and therefore is the right view :p :

LOL

[The Black Knight]

Ok , so , you know about momentum , right ?

Pastor was tighter in , and had he tried to leave another car width for Lewis to go into , he would , indeed , have been going straight .
That is , straight for the wall .
By the time Pastor was a car-width inside of the ideal racing line , it should have been clear to Lewis that his rival would not get through that corner without going for the apex .

Lewis , by that time , was the only one with a choice .
His choice was to either try to intimidate a guy who had no other choice but the wall , or dodge right to cut to the inside of those curbs .

Now , to be fair , Lewis didn't exactly have a lot of time to think in that moment , but then , his moment to think was a few moments earlier , when he went in on a guy clearly defending hard , with a line , a car-width inside the ideal .

He was right to go in , earlier , when he diced with the shoe , as he knew from the shoe's line , that it was possible .

But , hey , now he knows that Ste. Devote can sting you , even if your name is Lewis .

It was also very possible from Maldonado's line until he decided to cut across him and take an early turn in point. You're not filling me with confidence that you really have a grasp on what went on there at all.

Lewis had committed to the overtake before Maldonado turned in. He would have slowed down for Saint Devote, he was going to same speed he was when he overtook Schumacher and they didn't touch.

At least we've cleared up that Maldonado wasn't on the racing line now. It took 21 pages but someone finally admits it :D

[Bagwan]

The pictures show he wasn't on the racing line .
It is no "admission" on my part .

You are not filling me with confidence that you understand that momentum thing I spoke of .
The farther you are to the outside of the approach , the later you can leave your turn in , to catch the apex , bringing you out of the turn quicker , approaching the outside wall at exit at a lesser angle .

Maldonado is far inside the optimum line , necessitating an earlier turn in .
He went for the apex as late as he could , and obviously hadn't expected Lewis to be alongside .

He had believed he had shown by being so tight to start with , that nobody would risk that dive .

He was wrong .

The stewards believed , though , that he was right to believe as he did , and punished Lewis , accordingly .

[Garry Walker]

Hamilton should reconsider the people he hangs out with. Their idiocy is starting to grow on him.

[The Black Knight]

The pictures show he wasn't on the racing line .
It is no "admission" on my part .

You are not filling me with confidence that you understand that momentum thing I spoke of .
The farther you are to the outside of the approach , the later you can leave your turn in , to catch the apex , bringing you out of the turn quicker , approaching the outside wall at exit at a lesser angle .

Maldonado is far inside the optimum line , necessitating an earlier turn in .
He went for the apex as late as he could , and obviously hadn't expected Lewis to be alongside .

He had believed he had shown by being so tight to start with , that nobody would risk that dive .

He was wrong .

The stewards believed , though , that he was right to believe as he did , and punished Lewis , accordingly .

Maldonado's line was nowhere near far to the centre of the track nor was he far enough left, as we look at it, to justify moving in so early.

YouTube - ‪F1 2011 - Hamilton crashes into Maldonado (Monaco 2011).mp4‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raSVCG1Lu7s)

Have a look at this clip. You will see at 10 seconds there is a HRT turning into Saint Devot which at this point in time Maldonado is shaping up for a very simlar turning point into the corner as the HRT, so he clearly had the ability to take a wider line into the corner, thus elongating the radius of the corner but increasing the speed at which he exits. At this point in time you will notice that Lewis is almost side by side the Williams so Maldonado knew that an overtake attempt was coming up.

At 11 seconds Maldonado begins to turn in after slightly going off the racing line - fractionally. This is the point when he begins to cut across Hamilton At this point in time Hamilton had nowhere to go but down the inside of Maldonado, even if he brakes to the best of the McLaren's abilty, he was already committed to the overtake. Also, please watch the car behind that was, for some reason, on almost exactly the same line as Maldonado but yet takes a much later turn in point proving, by the way, that Maldonado didn't have to turn in at that point in time in which he chose to, he did so to cut across Lewis leaving him nowwhere to go.

You'll notice also that Hamilton begins to turn later than Maldonado does, as soon as he notices Maldonado cutting across him, and he has even less of an angle to play with than Maldonado himself but yet could still make the corner himself at this point. At this point in time Maldonado could have gone further on and taken a wider angle into the corner. He didn't.

12 seconds. Hamilton is clearly trying to avoid Maldonado at this stage.

13 seconds. Maldonado forces Lewis across the cones. Leaving him nowhere to go and they collide.

At no point here did Maldonado have to take this line into the corner nor did he give Hamilton any room to go. If you look at the line Maldonado did take it's becomes a very straight line. I'd actually love to see in car footage of Maldonado because it looks like at one stage as though he has little or not lock on his steering.

So what could Hamilton have done, given that he was already committed to an overtake? Answer: Absolutely nothing.

I wanted to convey this with still images but unfortunately the site won't upload any images from my computer. I don't know why.

[Mia 01]

Lewis will be fine, with only a few wins per season and no WDC coming his way he will adapt his driving.

[Daniel]

I'm still slightly confused as to why McLaren forced Lewis to apologise to his fellow competitors when he's OBVIOUSLY done nothing wrong?

Lewis Hamilton apologises to F1 rivals after Monaco scrapes | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/grand-prix-2011/lewis-hamilton-apologises-to-f1-rivals-after-monaco-scrapes/story-fn7r957q-1226067180792)

[Bagwan]

Daniel , I'm confused now , too .
I can't figure out why two former drivers , now commentators , in that clip of the incident , immediately decided it was Lewis's fault . It seemed they thought it was obvious .
And , then that former driver , Allan McNish , acting as steward thought so , too .

And , Daniel , Lewis didn't say he was wrong , but rather said he hoped what he said hadn't upset them .
There's a not so subtle difference .

It seems rather typical of his character .
He can neither resist the red mist , nor can he admit to it being a problem .

[markabilly]

i'm still slightly confused as to why mclaren forced lewis to apologise to his fellow competitors when he's obviously done nothing wrong?

lewis hamilton apologises to f1 rivals after monaco scrapes | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/grand-prix-2011/lewis-hamilton-apologises-to-f1-rivals-after-monaco-scrapes/story-fn7r957q-1226067180792)

because he is BLACK

[markabilly]

Daniel , I'm confused now , too .
I can't figure out why two former drivers , now commentators , in that clip of the incident , immediately decided it was Lewis's fault .
.


because he is BLACK

[The Black Knight]

I'm still slightly confused as to why McLaren forced Lewis to apologise to his fellow competitors when he's OBVIOUSLY done nothing wrong?

Lewis Hamilton apologises to F1 rivals after Monaco scrapes | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/grand-prix-2011/lewis-hamilton-apologises-to-f1-rivals-after-monaco-scrapes/story-fn7r957q-1226067180792)

Here's the important part from this article:

"Lewis has apologised for criticising fellow drivers Felipe Massa and Pastor Maldonado"

He has not apologised for the incidents just for what he said afterwards.

[The Black Knight]

Daniel , I'm confused now , too .
I can't figure out why two former drivers , now commentators , in that clip of the incident , immediately decided it was Lewis's fault . It seemed they thought it was obvious .
And , then that former driver , Allan McNish , acting as steward thought so , too .

And , Daniel , Lewis didn't say he was wrong , but rather said he hoped what he said hadn't upset them .
There's a not so subtle difference .

It seems rather typical of his character .
He can neither resist the red mist , nor can he admit to it being a problem .

Those two ex drivers are wrong I'm afraid. You should learn to make up your own mind rather than just listening to what others say. I thought that Lewis was wrong also in that incident with Maldonado until such time as I watched it again. Then I realised that it was Pastor that turned in and cut him off rather than him just lunging down the inside in the hope it works out. As I showed in my post above, he was already alongside him. His attempt to overtake perfectly legitimate.

If drivers can no longer make overtake attempts like Lewis did against Pastor on Sunday we will see no exciting overtaking or driving in F1.

[Tumbo]

so we must believe The Black Knight over 2 ex-drivers and a steward who penalised him.......ummm ok.......I won't watch another race this season i'll just listen to what i'm told is the actual outcome :rolleyes:

[yodasarmpit]

Jeez, if he had pulled of the passes without incident there would have been no penalty, he took his chance and it didn't pay off - he was penalised accordingly.
What's so difficult about that.

However his idiotic comments afterwards was something else completely.

[SGWilko]

so we must believe The Black Knight over 2 ex-drivers and a steward who penalised him.......ummm ok.......I won't watch another race this season i'll just listen to what i'm told is the actual outcome :rolleyes:

You must not believe anyone. Try being an individual and having your own opinion......

[The Black Knight]

You must not believe anyone. Try being an individual and having your own opinion......

Bingo! :s mokin:

[SGWilko]

Bingo! :s mokin:

Not that hard, is it. You don't have to agree with anyone, just respect them for their own opinion.

[The Black Knight]

Not that hard, is it. You don't have to agree with anyone, just respect them for their own opinion.

Precisely. I enjoy debating like this but I do despair when people naturally assume that just because X and Y said that such and such a thing must be true that it is. I'd be fairly confident that if Brundle did inspect the crash with Maldonado he would come up with the conclusion that it was either Maldonado's fault or a racing incident. If Maldonado didn't know Lewis was there I'd put it down to a racing incident but clearly he changes is line to defend against Lewis and cuts across him leaving Lewis nowhere to go, thus I have to point the blame in Pastor's direction.

[Tumbo]

You must not believe anyone. Try being an individual and having your own opinion......

Actually I do; and funnily enough I agree w/ the stewards in at least the Maldonaldo incident - I spoke about it earlier. Far as i'm concerned provided a driver doesn't use excessive blocking the rules allow for you to shut the door on a competitor in a fair manner. Maldonaldo was ahead of Lewis and in the process of closing the door when the new Ali G decided to dive bomb up the inside because it would seem based on the race had lost patience with being so far off Vettel.

My statement was more addressing the 'those 2 ex-[drivers] are incorrect' given that there are a fair few on here who agree w/ the penalty and moreso the fact that Lewis was to blame. It always seems if someone is a fan of a certain driver then a penalty against that driver is unfair yet a similar penalty against a competitor is deemed to be appropriate [would love to know whether some of the Lewis fans would have been arguing for Vettel to be banned for a race if he had been in Lewis' position].

And end of the day Lewis trying to play the 'race card' as a grounds for the penalty was completely ridiculous - i'm yet to see any real evidence supporting this? Yes he may have had a rough trot w/ certain individuals playing morons and he has every right to be offended and upset by that - but to then claim racism because the stewards are doing their job? Makes a mockery of those suffering from real racism. I put this on par w/ Bernie's comment concerning education and the issues in Bahrain.

Enough individuality and self opinion there for u SGWilko - note agreeing w/ the stewards/commentators IS having an opinion

[Mia 01]

When you start among the monkeys they seldom like you.

[The Black Knight]

Actually I do; and funnily enough I agree w/ the stewards in at least the Maldonaldo incident - I spoke about it earlier. Far as i'm concerned provided a driver doesn't use excessive blocking the rules allow for you to shut the door on a competitor in a fair manner. Maldonaldo was ahead of Lewis and in the process of closing the door when the new Ali G decided to dive bomb up the inside because it would seem based on the race had lost patience with being so far off Vettel.

My statement was more addressing the 'those 2 ex-[drivers] are incorrect' given that there are a fair few on here who agree w/ the penalty and moreso the fact that Lewis was to blame. It always seems if someone is a fan of a certain driver then a penalty against that driver is unfair yet a similar penalty against a competitor is deemed to be appropriate [would love to know whether some of the Lewis fans would have been arguing for Vettel to be banned for a race if he had been in Lewis' position].

And end of the day Lewis trying to play the 'race card' as a grounds for the penalty was completely ridiculous - i'm yet to see any real evidence supporting this? Yes he may have had a rough trot w/ certain individuals playing morons and he has every right to be offended and upset by that - but to then claim racism because the stewards are doing their job? Makes a mockery of those suffering from real racism. I put this on par w/ Bernie's comment concerning education and the issues in Bahrain.

Enough individuality and self opinion there for u SGWilko - note agreeing w/ the stewards/commentators IS having an opinion

That's a bit more like it.

While those of us that believe Hamilton correct have given detailed accounts of what happened, unfortunately all I've heard from the anti-Hamilton brigade is that he divebombed up the inside because he lost patience or he dove in all repeated in varying different ways etc None of you have yet given details showing how he "dive bombed" from being almost level on the track with him. My guess is you actually can't give a detailed account because you're not able.

There is no evidence backing this up at all because to dive bomb up the inside of someone you have to be behind them and just throw it in or at least quite a bit further back than Hammy was. Hamilton was already on the inside with his front wing almost at the back of Maldonado's front wing. If that's a dive bomb then most overtaking must be a dive bomb because in most overtakes I've seen I'd rarely see a driver in a better position to outbrake his opponent into a corner than Hamilton was there.

By the way, the rules allow you to move once to defend your position. Maldonado moved twice whilst under attack from Lewis. If the stewards were being consistent he should have been penalised for that.

[The Black Knight]

You need to lighen up and accept it was a tongue in cheek joke to a question Lewis couldn't really answer. The majority of people discussing his interview accept it was a comment made in poor taste, but it was simply an ill judged joke. Is it really Lewis playing the race card, or is it just abit of ammo for those who don't like him to add abit of weight to the arguement? Anyone with a hint of an understanding of sarcasm could take that comment in the context in which it was delivered.

Well said. Bad joke. Bad timing. Most people, including the FIA, accept this.

[SGWilko]

Actually I do; and funnily enough I agree w/ the stewards in at least the Maldonaldo incident - I spoke about it earlier. Far as i'm concerned provided a driver doesn't use excessive blocking the rules allow for you to shut the door on a competitor in a fair manner. Maldonaldo was ahead of Lewis and in the process of closing the door when the new Ali G decided to dive bomb up the inside because it would seem based on the race had lost patience with being so far off Vettel.

My statement was more addressing the 'those 2 ex-[drivers] are incorrect' given that there are a fair few on here who agree w/ the penalty and moreso the fact that Lewis was to blame. It always seems if someone is a fan of a certain driver then a penalty against that driver is unfair yet a similar penalty against a competitor is deemed to be appropriate [would love to know whether some of the Lewis fans would have been arguing for Vettel to be banned for a race if he had been in Lewis' position].

And end of the day Lewis trying to play the 'race card' as a grounds for the penalty was completely ridiculous - i'm yet to see any real evidence supporting this? Yes he may have had a rough trot w/ certain individuals playing morons and he has every right to be offended and upset by that - but to then claim racism because the stewards are doing their job? Makes a mockery of those suffering from real racism. I put this on par w/ Bernie's comment concerning education and the issues in Bahrain.

Enough individuality and self opinion there for u SGWilko - note agreeing w/ the stewards/commentators IS having an opinion

Plenty opinion yes - well done. But don't go on the defensive when you decide you 'have' to believe someone elses opinion over the commentators' opinions. You make up your own mind and stop putting down other peoples opinions. Dissagree by all means, but don't ridicule anothers' opinion.

You are indeed allowed to block an overtake, but you'd expect the block to happen before the overtake is being made, otherwise you then just end up turning in on your competitor who is already alongside.

One has to factor in also that, rather than 'dive bombing' up the inside, Lewis was simply faster and better positioned to take the inside line to the corner by virtue of the speed advantage given by use of the DRS. If you cannot use the DRS to facilitate an overtake, why have it?

A lot of us voiced our concerns at the use of DRS at Monaco due to the confines and proximity of the barriers, nonetheless the FIA deemed it appropriate, and thus the Stewards really ought to consider the effect it could have in setting up such passes. Maldonado also showed his inexperience by. perhaps, not taking this into consideration. However, this is his rookie year, and you can expect mistakes to be made - this is after all how you learn!

On a seperate issue, I have been trying to determine the root cause of Massa's tunnel crash: Was it because he was on the marbles, was it due to damage from the McLaren or, was it damage to the wing stays due to clouting the Red Bull. The more I watch the replay, the more we can see just how hard Massa hit Webber - I think the hole in Massa's cars' nose was a result of this, and perhaps the resultant loss of front end grip set up the accident. Although ultimetely, he hit the barrier because the rear wheels lost traction on the marbles/dust off-line.

[Tumbo]

You need to lighen up and accept it was a tongue in cheek joke to a question Lewis couldn't really answer. The majority of people discussing his interview accept it was a comment made in poor taste, but it was simply an ill judged joke. Is it really Lewis playing the race card, or is it just abit of ammo for those who don't like him to add abit of weight to the arguement? Anyone with a hint of an understanding of sarcasm could take that comment in the context in which it was delivered.

See I do have quite a good grasp of sarcasm - Brits may not believe it but we actually do speak English down under :p (did that work? did the sarcasm come through there) But making a joke about something which can be quite serious (just look at the way English fans hit the roof over the black-faced fans in Spain) is not on - especially when you have been around the block for more than 5mins. If Lewis didn't have a question mark in his own mind over it then why go there - he isn't that stupid as to think it wouldn't cause a headline

[The Black Knight]

Plenty opinion yes - well done. But don't go on the defensive when you decide you 'have' to believe someone elses opinion over the commentators' opinions. You make up your own mind and stop putting down other peoples opinions. Dissagree by all means, but don't ridicule anothers' opinion.

You are indeed allowed to block an overtake, but you'd expect the block to happen before the overtake is being made, otherwise you then just end up turning in on your competitor who is already alongside.

One has to factor in also that, rather than 'dive bombing' up the inside, Lewis was simply faster and better positioned to take the inside line to the corner by virtue of the speed advantage given by use of the DRS. If you cannot use the DRS to facilitate an overtake, why have it?

A lot of us voiced our concerns at the use of DRS at Monaco due to the confines and proximity of the barriers, nonetheless the FIA deemed it appropriate, and thus the Stewards really ought to consider the effect it could have in setting up such passes. Maldonado also showed his inexperience by. perhaps, not taking this into consideration. However, this is his rookie year, and you can expect mistakes to be made - this is after all how you learn!

On a seperate issue, I have been trying to determine the root cause of Massa's tunnel crash: Was it because he was on the marbles, was it due to damage from the McLaren or, was it damage to the wing stays due to clouting the Red Bull. The more I watch the replay, the more we can see just how hard Massa hit Webber - I think the hole in Massa's cars' nose was a result of this, and perhaps the resultant loss of front end grip set up the accident. Although ultimetely, he hit the barrier because the rear wheels lost traction on the marbles/dust off-line.

I'd imagine it was damage from the Loews hairpin a few corners before. How Hamilton got alongside Massa in the tunnel is beyond me. I really wish we could find some coverage of this as it could shed some light on Massa's crash and what actually caused it.

[SGWilko]

See I do have quite a good grasp of sarcasm - Brits may not believe it but we actually do speak English down under :p (did that work? did the sarcasm come through there) But making a joke about something which can be quite serious (just look at the way English fans hit the roof over the black-faced fans in Spain) is not on - especially when you have been around the block for more than 5mins. If Lewis didn't have a question mark in his own mind over it then why go there - he isn't that stupid as to think it wouldn't cause a headline

Perhaps Lewis was just still pumped up, and felt he had been given short shrift by the Stewards.

End of the day, once he calmed down, he apologised.

Remember Vettel and Webber at Turkey 2010? Immediately out of the car Seb does the 'loopy' sing with his fingers to suggest Mark was mad? He knows full well Mark is not mad, and he also knew that Mark did not deviate from his line........

In a subsequent interview on reflection, he backtracked and said he'd never deliberately turn in on a competitor - suggesting it was his 'mistake'.

Water under the bridge.......

[SGWilko]

I'd imagine it was damage from the Loews hairpin a few corners before. How Hamilton got alongside Massa in the tunnel is beyond me. I really wish we could find some coverage of this as it could shed some light on Massa's crash and what actually caused it.

If it was a lack of front-end grip, you'd expect Massa to run wide on the corner immediately before the tunnel, thus allowing Lewis to get up the inside......

[The Black Knight]

If it was a lack of front-end grip, you'd expect Massa to run wide on the corner immediately before the tunnel, thus allowing Lewis to get up the inside......

That would also explain why he went out onto the Marbles so easily in the tunnel. But if he felt something had broke on the car the corner before the tunnel or he knew he had lost grip, one would expect he'd have backed off knowing he couldn't possibly defend against Hamilton, or take the tunnel at normal speed, but it looked as though he was defending his position...

[Mia 01]

If it was a lack of front-end grip, you'd expect Massa to run wide on the corner immediately before the tunnel, thus allowing Lewis to get up the inside......

It was either a DFN or a penalty for him, it ended with the latter.

[Tumbo]

Remember Vettel and Webber at Turkey 2010?

I'm just glad that this incident didn't involve Webber and Vettel as given my Red Bull fandom and complete dislike of Webber I wouldn't be able to give any objective statement concerning the matter. This is probably the first time i've been of the opinion that Lewis was just not in the right place in his head during a race and took stupid risks and went beyond normal racing moves. Was a real shame as I thought he was on fire in Catalunya the race before and really was showing himself to be the Lewis of 07/8 again something that I felt has been missing the last 2 yrs (even tho the car may have had an impact on that)

[Daniel]

That's a bit more like it.

While those of us that believe Hamilton correct have given detailed accounts of what happened, unfortunately all I've heard from the anti-Hamilton brigade is that he divebombed up the inside because he lost patience or he dove in all repeated in varying different ways etc None of you have yet given details showing how he "dive bombed" from being almost level on the track with him. My guess is you actually can't give a detailed account because you're not able.

There is no evidence backing this up at all because to dive bomb up the inside of someone you have to be behind them and just throw it in or at least quite a bit further back than Hammy was. Hamilton was already on the inside with his front wing almost at the back of Maldonado's front wing. If that's a dive bomb then most overtaking must be a dive bomb because in most overtakes I've seen I'd rarely see a driver in a better position to outbrake his opponent into a corner than Hamilton was there.

By the way, the rules allow you to move once to defend your position. Maldonado moved twice whilst under attack from Lewis. If the stewards were being consistent he should have been penalised for that.

One of the "movements" was to follow the kink in the start finish straight..... Should Pastor just have crashed into the wall to let Lewis through?????

What is it with SOME Lewis fans who just seem to think that people should get out of his way? Lewis was aiming at a piece of track that was going to become kerb and Maldonado needed to let him through, he was not even alonside Massa and Massa is just meant to let him through. Get a grip people and just admit that Hamilton did wrong....

[SGWilko]

people should get out of his way?

In F1 you don't just 'hope' the other drivers get out of the way, because, being a competition it does not work like that. You have to make the move, and make it stick. Sadly, it requires the other party to not turn in on you and expect to be able to class it as a 'blocking move'

[CaptainRaiden]

I love how adamant some people are that Lewis DID do wrong, ABSOLUTELY, 100%, wake up, get a grip, blah, blah, blah when neither Domenicali or Sam Michael have pointed their finger at Lewis. They have the full license to just lay it on him, but for some reason they held back. Is it because they're aware their drivers MAY be at fault as well, to a lesser extent? I mean Marko Helmut said more about a driver in his own team after the Vettel-Webber clash after Turkey 2010 than Stefano and Sam have so far about a driver that doesn't drive for them.

Also, these same Lewis detractors have so far conveniently ignored any and all evidence that the two incidents MIGHT, just MIGHT be racing incidents, especially the pictures. The incident with Massa, yes, Lewis was way too overeager, but if someone in their right mind can actually blame Lewis 100% for the Maldonado incident, then I don't know how much about racing do they really know. Sadly, when there's this much bias and hatred involved, along with passion, things are only gonna go round in circles.

[The Black Knight]

I love how adamant some people are that Lewis DID do wrong, ABSOLUTELY, 100%, wake up, get a grip, blah, blah, blah when neither Domenicali or Sam Michael have pointed their finger at Lewis. They have the full license to just lay it on him, but for some reason they held back. Is it because they're aware their drivers MAY be at fault as well, to a lesser extent? I mean Marko Helmut said more about a driver in his own team after the Vettel-Webber clash after Turkey 2010 than Stefano and Sam have so far about a driver that doesn't drive for them.

Also, these same Lewis detractors have so far conveniently ignored any and all evidence that the two incidents MIGHT, just MIGHT be racing incidents, especially the pictures. The incident with Massa, yes, Lewis was way too overeager, but if someone in their right mind can actually blame Lewis 100% for the Maldonado incident, then I don't know how much about racing do they really know. Sadly, when there's this much bias and hatred involved, along with passion, things are only gonna go round in circles.

This is the unfortunate case as can be seen clearly by Daniel's post


"Get a grip people and just admit that Hamilton did wrong.... " Yet he ignores all the evidence. This is the case with all the people in this thread. I put a post up last night which gives a clear second by second account of what happened and what Lewis's and Maldonado's options were at each point and nobody even bothered replying to it because they know they are wrong. If they were right they'd be able to reply with evidence to counteract my argument but they couldn't.

Bagwan fell back on comments such as:

Daniel , I'm confused now , too .
I can't figure out why two former drivers , now commentators , in that clip of the incident , immediately decided it was Lewis's fault . It seemed they thought it was obvious .
And , then that former driver , Allan McNish , acting as steward thought so , too .

It's all rather amusing really. It continually amazes the depths of denial people will go to in order to not have to admit they are wrong.

Tomorrow night I'm going to sit back and read over this thread with popcorn.

[Bagwan]

Those two ex drivers are wrong I'm afraid. You should learn to make up your own mind rather than just listening to what others say. I thought that Lewis was wrong also in that incident with Maldonado until such time as I watched it again. Then I realised that it was Pastor that turned in and cut him off rather than him just lunging down the inside in the hope it works out. As I showed in my post above, he was already alongside him. His attempt to overtake perfectly legitimate.

If drivers can no longer make overtake attempts like Lewis did against Pastor on Sunday we will see no exciting overtaking or driving in F1.

Brundle , Coulthard , and McNish . I count three guys who agree with me there .
You should learn how to count .

I gave you a good explanation of why I believe Lewis to be at fault in the incident , before I referred you to those three guys .
You should learn how to read .

Lewis knew where Pastor was .
Pastor knew Lewis was back there , and moved in to show his intentions .
Lewis didn't get the message , and tried to force his way through .

But , you can't intimidate a driver who can't see you .

You didn't see Maldonado taking any avoidance move before they came together , did you ?

[SGWilko]

Pastor knew Lewis was back there ,

I take issue with this statement - because Lewis was already alongside Maldonado when Pastor started turning in to protect his line at the corner. I see it as Pastor defending the corner too late - shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted if you like.

[The Black Knight]

Brundle , Coulthard , and McNish . I count three guys who agree with me there .
You should learn how to count .


You should learn to remember what you write in a post AND connect the dots to what I was referring.


I can't figure out why two former drivers , now commentators , in that clip of the incident



Lewis knew where Pastor was .
Pastor knew Lewis was alongside him , and moved in not giving Lewis anywhere to go.
Lewis got the message and turned further in right trying to avoid Maldonado as Maldonado cut across him.

But , you can't intimidate Lewis Hamilton but he still tried to avoid Maldonado whilst striving to make the corner.

You saw Maldonado cut across Lewis and give him nowhere to go, didn't you?

To give an accurate account of what actually happened I've modified your post in quotes. Fixed.

Yes, yes I did see Maldonado cut across Lewis and give him nowhere to go.

[Bagwan]

You should learn to remember what you write in a post AND connect to dots to what I was referring.

To give an accurate account of what actually happened I've modified your post in quotes. Fixed.

Yes, yes I did see Maldonado cut across Lewis and give him nowhere to go.

Have a nice day .
And , be sure to tell all your friends that you have won this debate with me .

[SGWilko]

Have a nice day .
And , be sure to tell all your friends that you have won this debate with me .

That's a cop out Baggy, very poor show. You can do better'n that???

[Bagwan]

That's a cop out Baggy, very poor show. You can do better'n that???

Teach me how to win a debate in which your opponent sometimes doesn't read your words , or disregards them , and other times just blatantly changes them to make it look like you agree .

The Black Knight does not agree with my analysis of this situation .

I can accept that .

I didn't say he won this debate , only that he can tell his friends that he did .


Thank you for your encouragement .

[The Black Knight]

Teach me how to win a debate in which your opponent sometimes doesn't read your words , or disregards them , and other times just blatantly changes them to make it look like you agree .

The Black Knight does not agree with my analysis of this situation .

I can accept that .

I didn't say he won this debate , only that he can tell his friends that he did .


Thank you for your encouragement .

It's not that I didn't read your words, I was correcting them. You said "Pastor knew Lewis was back there" which is clearly incorrect. This suggests he was behind him somehow, whereas can be clearly seen from the video he was alongside him. I'm struggling to accept that you grasp exactly what happened in the crash or have seen or more than once on TV during the BBC coverage.

I see your words but they don't make sense as per the incident.

Ok, I'll come at it from another angle. Please go back to the post I wrote last night where I posted a clip from YouTube. Can you please watch that clip and tell me at what point in seconds you believe that Hamilton should have backed off and where he should have gone from there in order to not hit Maldonado?

[Tumbo]

Pastor was ahead of Lewis at all times going into the corner - at no point in time in any of the shots was lewis any closer than halfway up the side of pastor and that was when he hit pastor having gone over the ripple strip

have a look - lewis has his front wing well back of pastor's front wheel when pastor started moving across along the line he had been setup to take the corner.

[wedge]

I don't suppose anybody here know the definition of a racing incident?

*grabs coat*

[The Black Knight]

Pastor was ahead of Lewis at all times going into the corner - at no point in time in any of the shots was lewis any closer than halfway up the side of pastor and that was when he hit pastor having gone over the ripple strip

have a look - lewis has his front wing well back of pastor's front wheel when pastor started moving across along the line he had been setup to take the corner.

I'd imagine he was, otherwise I'm sure, despite how hell bent ye are on blaming Lewis for something that wasn't his fault, that even ye could not accept that it was Hamilton's fault. There comes a point where a driver is alongside his opponent enough to attempt to outbrake him. Hamilton was well within this zone. In fact, we've all seen overtaking maneouvres which have been pulled off with cars further back than Lewis. Why? Because if a car is trying to outbrake you the last thing you do is throw your car in front of him. We've seen this plenty of times in the past. Turn one in Montreal is a typical example of it, where in every race we see cars give each other room. Maldonado should have done this too. Given Lewis room and drove around him if he could, otherwise concede the position. If when trying to overtake it is simply Ok for a car to turn in on you then there would be no overtaking in F1, no one would try it because it would just end up in a crash.

Again I ask you, at what point in the video I posted yesterday do you think Hamilton should have backed off and where should have have gone from there?

[555-04Q2]

I don't suppose anybody here know the definition of a racing incident?

*grabs coat*

Smartass :p :

[Shifter]

JYiNKYaviZI

Oh my word. He didn't even need his mirrors to see the vodafone symbol on the Mclaren's front wing on his right side, yet he still turned in, also after weaving twice on the main straight.

Nice bit of vid. I was reserving judgement on that one 'till I had a better look at it. So Hamilton had an excellent pass on Schumacher, Pulled a dodgy one on Massa, then tried the Schumacher move on Maldonado, and still almost (would have without the 3RD block put on him) made it far enough alongside after being illegally blocked only for Maldonado to punt himself off the front of Lewis' car.

So IMO, Hamilton made 2 good moves and 1 bad one.

[Mia 01]

Is it so, every other driver should be afraid of Lewis and move out of his way to victory. For sure he belives it, and a big shunk of his fans.

[Bagwan]

It's not that I didn't read your words, I was correcting them. You said "Pastor knew Lewis was back there" which is clearly incorrect. This suggests he was behind him somehow, whereas can be clearly seen from the video he was alongside him. I'm struggling to accept that you grasp exactly what happened in the crash or have seen or more than once on TV during the BBC coverage.

I see your words but they don't make sense as per the incident.

Ok, I'll come at it from another angle. Please go back to the post I wrote last night where I posted a clip from YouTube. Can you please watch that clip and tell me at what point in seconds you believe that Hamilton should have backed off and where he should have gone from there in order to not hit Maldonado?
Pastor knew Lewis was behind him down the whole straight .
He judged that Lewis would not make the attempt , or at least back out of it .
He judged it this way as he was in a car width from the ideal line .
He also turned in when he did because of his position .

He clearly would not have turned in had he known or expected Lewis to be there . That would be stupid .

Lewis was not in his line of sight until it was a forgone conclusion that they would collide .
Unless of course , you think he should have been looking in his mirrors , instead of watching where he was going .

It was simply too late .
And , Pastor couldn't see him .

If it's really necessary , I will try to look at your video evidence again(later , when I have the time) and try to point to where his last moment to change his mind was .
I don't know how it makes things any clearer , but , it would have been before he attempted to get alongside .
And , Tumbo has it right when he states "lewis has his front wing well back of pastor's front wheel when pastor started moving across along the line he had been setup to take the corner."

He attempted , but never got far enough in to intimidate Pastor into avoidance .

[SGWilko]

Pastor knew Lewis was behind him down the whole straight .
He judged that Lewis would not make the attempt , or at least back out of it .
He judged it this way as he was in a car width from the ideal line .
He also turned in when he did because of his position .

He clearly would not have turned in had he known or expected Lewis to be there . That would be stupid .

Lewis was not in his line of sight until it was a forgone conclusion that they would collide .
Unless of course , you think he should have been looking in his mirrors , instead of watching where he was going .

It was simply too late .
And , Pastor couldn't see him .

If it's really necessary , I will try to look at your video evidence again(later , when I have the time) and try to point to where his last moment to change his mind was .
I don't know how it makes things any clearer , but , it would have been before he attempted to get alongside .
And , Tumbo has it right when he states "lewis has his front wing well back of pastor's front wheel when pastor started moving across along the line he had been setup to take the corner."

He attempted , but never got far enough in to intimidate Pastor into avoidance .

Fair enough.

Can I then ask you how it was that the Shoe did see Lewis, in what can reasonably be described as, almost identical situations?

If a driver does not have his mirrors thus positioned to provide coverage of the periphery for just such situations so that he can make an informed judgement as to the position of the car behind/beside/passing/being passed, then he needs to get that sorted PDQ.

It reminds me very much of my Law days, apply the reasonableness test as set out in the Cunningham/Cauldwell cases.

I personally think it is reasonable to assume that Pastor did know a pass was being made, but was reckless in that he chose to turn in regardless and suffer the consequences - stay ahead or collide.

[Bagwan]

Fair enough.

Can I then ask you how it was that the Shoe did see Lewis, in what can reasonably be described as, almost identical situations?

If a driver does not have his mirrors thus positioned to provide coverage of the periphery for just such situations so that he can make an informed judgement as to the position of the car behind/beside/passing/being passed, then he needs to get that sorted PDQ.

It reminds me very much of my Law days, apply the reasonableness test as set out in the Cunningham/Cauldwell cases.

I personally think it is reasonable to assume that Pastor did know a pass was being made, but was reckless in that he chose to turn in regardless and suffer the consequences - stay ahead or collide.

Pastor and the shoe ran into the identical corner , but they did not enter in identical ways .

The shoe entered wide and on line , and from there it was possible to give room , and still not whack the wall , as he showed .
It was smart , as giving lots of room made the move from Lewis all the more predictable , even if it was predictable to begin with .

There was a time when Michael had the reputation to force an issue like this , and "bully" through , knowing there was every chance he would go for a gap that sometimes didn't exist yet , but he , in that car , is not seen as a threat any more .


But , Pastor gave him a clue right away that he was in defensive mode .
He entered tight , but not tight enough to intimidate Lewis .

I expect , both being unrepentent about it , that we will see more argy-bargy between them .
Pastor will make his intentions even clearer , and Lewis will try harder .


I don't see either as really reckless .
Pastor made a bad assumption , thinking he had intimidated Lewis .
And , vice versa , to a degree .

It is , though , the responsibility of the guy behind to make the pass safely .
You've gotta let the other guy know you're there .

If you aren't sure he can see you , you shouldn't stick your nose in .

[SGWilko]

Pastor and the shoe ran into the identical corner , but they did not enter in identical ways .

The shoe entered wide and on line , and from there it was possible to give room , and still not whack the wall , as he showed .
It was smart , as giving lots of room made the move from Lewis all the more predictable , even if it was predictable to begin with .

There was a time when Michael had the reputation to force an issue like this , and "bully" through , knowing there was every chance he would go for a gap that sometimes didn't exist yet , but he , in that car , is not seen as a threat any more .


But , Pastor gave him a clue right away that he was in defensive mode .
He entered tight , but not tight enough to intimidate Lewis .

I expect , both being unrepentent about it , that we will see more argy-bargy between them .
Pastor will make his intentions even clearer , and Lewis will try harder .


I don't see either as really reckless .
Pastor made a bad assumption , thinking he had intimidated Lewis .
And , vice versa , to a degree .

It is , though , the responsibility of the guy behind to make the pass safely .
You've gotta let the other guy know you're there .

If you aren't sure he can see you , you shouldn't stick your nose in .

Yeah, but how come Shoe saw it, Pastor was clueless? Inexperience or recklessness?

You say Pastor made his defence (weaving) but he still left t'door open.....

[Tumbo]

You didn't think Lewis had a great season in 2010!??
He produced more overtakes than anyone else in the entire season, was the most consistent of the top drivers in the beginning and middle part of the season and had a chance to win the championship going into the final race in by then the third best car! Do you think you estimations are a little high in terms of expecting a racing driver that never makes a mistake here and there?

I never made mention of mistakes in my comment regarding Lewis of the last 2yrs - if you can show me where I did i'm happy to agree w/ ur statement - rather I made mention of the Lewis who we saw in 07/08; this includes all aspects from his interviews, to his demenour, to his performances. Lewis had a good season last yr but there was that extra spark missing which I think until Monaco we have seen back again this yr. The McLaren is easily the 2nd best car in the field and not far off the Red Bull; yet RBR still have that edge and when Vettel is 'on' can clearly hold Lewis off (as seen in the Spanish GP). You will also notice that I made mention of the possiblity that it could have been the car too blame for the 09/10 seasons........unsure what i've missed for the Lewis brigade to take issue w/ that statement as well?

[Hawkmoon]

Nice bit of vid. I was reserving judgement on that one 'till I had a better look at it. So Hamilton had an excellent pass on Schumacher, Pulled a dodgy one on Massa, then tried the Schumacher move on Maldonado, and still almost (would have without the 3RD block put on him) made it far enough alongside after being illegally blocked only for Maldonado to punt himself off the front of Lewis' car.

So IMO, Hamilton made 2 good moves and 1 bad one.

I think this was simply a racing incident. Hamilton went for a gap that was closing and he had to know that the only way it was going to work was if Maldonado effectively conceded defeat before they even reached the corner. Maldonado didn't concede and the passing attempt went pear-shaped.

Maldonado had to know Hamilton was back there but chose to go for the appex anyway, perhaps thinking Hamilton had abandoned the passing attempt. I don't think Maldonado can be criticsed too harshly because Hamilton was probably in his blind spot by the time they collided.

As I say, a racing incident and I wouldn't have thought it out of order if Hamilton wasn't penalised. The fact that this was the second time in the race that Hamilton had collided while attemting to pass may have affected the stewards decision.

[Rollo]

This is related, and may be a useful guide for the principle involved here:

New driving code of conduct for V8s - Speedcafe (http://www.speedcafe.com.au/2010/02/25/new-driving-code-of-conduct-for-v8s/)
It outlines new passing procedures that underline the car’s B pillar as the strict passing point that an overtaking car must achieve at the approach, apex and exit of any corner.

Effectively the B-Pillar on an F1 car is that point at which cockpit meets engine cover at the rollover hoop. I don't think that Lewis' front wheel ever passed that point and therefore no effective pass was ever made.

Since the fault of accidents is almost always incumbent on the following car, then this accident was Lewis' fault; the video hasn't changed my opinion of that.


It is , though , the responsibility of the guy behind to make the pass safely .
You've gotta let the other guy know you're there .

If you aren't sure he can see you , you shouldn't stick your nose in .

+1 to this.

[The Black Knight]

Pastor and the shoe ran into the identical corner , but they did not enter in identical ways .

The shoe entered wide and on line , and from there it was possible to give room , and still not whack the wall , as he showed .
It was smart , as giving lots of room made the move from Lewis all the more predictable , even if it was predictable to begin with .

There was a time when Michael had the reputation to force an issue like this , and "bully" through , knowing there was every chance he would go for a gap that sometimes didn't exist yet , but he , in that car , is not seen as a threat any more .


But , Pastor gave him a clue right away that he was in defensive mode .
He entered tight , but not tight enough to intimidate Lewis .

I expect , both being unrepentent about it , that we will see more argy-bargy between them .
Pastor will make his intentions even clearer , and Lewis will try harder .


I don't see either as really reckless .
Pastor made a bad assumption , thinking he had intimidated Lewis .
And , vice versa , to a degree .

It is , though , the responsibility of the guy behind to make the pass safely .
You've gotta let the other guy know you're there .

If you aren't sure he can see you , you shouldn't stick your nose in .

Thank you for being the first person to finally explain the overtaking maneuver properly from the side of those that believe Hamilton to be wrong. It's a shame we had to go 500 posts before getting to this stage.

This leaves one remaining question, did Pastor know Lewis was alongside him? You have a fair enough point about Maldonado and the possibility that he felt he had intimidated Lewis. I don't know how he ever possibly have thought he could intimidate Lewis Hamilton by moving his car a little over to the right, so I don't feel this is the case at all but I can see where you're coming from in reaching this conclusion.

If he didn't know that Lewis was alongside him then there is something wrong with his wing mirrors. Maybe he just didn't notice them, or maybe he has very bad peripheral vision to say he wasn't able to see the big red wing of the McLaren just behind his front right wheel, this is all a possibility but if he didn't even have wing mirrors positioned in a way that he can't see if he is being overtaken then it is also his fault. It is his responsibility to position his mirrors correctly, otherwise they are rendered useless.


It is , though , the responsibility of the guy behind to make the pass safely .
You've gotta let the other guy know you're there .

If you aren't sure he can see you , you shouldn't stick your nose in .

I agree with this adding that it is also the responsibility of the guy in front to know what is around him and to not cut the other guy off. It was discussed in F1 years ago that you must give the other guy room, you can't simply cut across and block him off after he has committed to the overtake. You're right, it would be stupid for Maldonado to cut across Lewis knowing he was there, but that's exactly what it was unfortunately - just plain stupid because I simply can't fathom how he couldn't have realised Lewis was going for that move after Lewis being alongside him, it doesn't make sense.

There are two people involved in an overtaking maneuver. The overtaker, in this instant Lewis, positioned his car alongside Pastor's and made sure he knew he was there. That is all Lewis had to do, at that point he has let the other guy know that he was alongside him.

It is the responsibility of the person being overtaken then to make it as hard as possible for the following car to overtake them without pushing them off the track or trying to chop the front of their car off. Pastor, unfortunately, didn't do this.

[555-04Q2]

This is related, and may be a useful guide for the principle involved here:

New driving code of conduct for V8s - Speedcafe (http://www.speedcafe.com.au/2010/02/25/new-driving-code-of-conduct-for-v8s/)
It outlines new passing procedures that underline the car’s B pillar as the strict passing point that an overtaking car must achieve at the approach, apex and exit of any corner.

Effectively the B-Pillar on an F1 car is that point at which cockpit meets engine cover at the rollover hoop. I don't think that Lewis' front wheel ever passed that point and therefore no effective pass was ever made.

Since the fault of accidents is almost always incumbent on the following car, then this accident was Lewis' fault; the video hasn't changed my opinion of that.



+1 to this.

I would say the front wing is the A pillar and the rear wing the B pillar :p :

[555-04Q2]

I think F1 drivers who drive fast for a living should pay close attention to discussion forums full of armchair experts who infact understand fully what its like to approach a corner, and drive around it, even if split second decisions are better understood from within the car. I had no idea how to approach St. Devote until a few minutes ago, but I do now. I also know exactly what went through Pastor and Lewis's head in the seconds leading up to their incident. They are right when they say all the answers are on the internet.

Hoot Your Trap Off (http://www.trashbat.co.ck)

Some of us "armchair critics" are actually people who have raced before, maybe not an F1 car (I would give both my nuts for the opportunity), but the principles of racing are all the same.

[SGWilko]

I don't think Maldonado can be criticsed too harshly because Hamilton was probably in his blind spot by the time they collided.


Pastor is not some old biddy filling out their insurance claim after driving into an overtaking car on the motorway, he is an F1 driver and should know better.

Blind spot my 4r53!

Besides, if you think something may be in your 'blind spot' you turn your head to ckeck. Blind faith is best left to lemmings.... ;)

[555-04Q2]

I've raced karts for many years, but I am no expert around Monaco and certainly not when it comes to commenting on what a Formula One driver should be thinking in the seconds when decelerating from 180mph.


Here's a good amateur video of the Massa incident. Both at fault IMO. Massa turns in way too early and Lewis shouldn't have been there.

YouTube - ‪Monaco F1 tight squeeze around the Fairmont famous Hairpin turn‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed8zaLh2WBw&feature=player_detailpage)

Racing is racing, some cars are just faster than others, but your driving ability and the ability to handle the car should go up as you move to the higher formula's. If you can't handle it or make the right decisions you should not be racing in that formula. The basic principles of racing and how to overtake as is being discussed here is the same from karting right through to F1.

[SGWilko]

Racing is racing, some cars are just faster than others, but your driving ability and the ability to handle the car should go up as you move to the higher formula's. If you can't handle it or make the right decisions you should not be racing in that formula. The basic principles of racing and how to overtake as is being discussed here is the same from karting right through to F1.

Are you therefore suggesting Pastor is not ready for big boy F1?

[555-04Q2]

Are you therefore suggesting Pastor is not ready for big boy F1?

No, I'm suggesting that Hammy had a brain fade. Hammy is brilliant around Monaco, always has been in any formula he's raced there. Dare I even say he's better than Senna ever was around Monaco? But you would not have though that after watching him crash into everyone last Sunday.

[SGWilko]

No, I'm suggesting that Hammy had a brain fade. Hammy is brilliant around Monaco, always has been in any formula he's raced there. Dare I even say he's better than Senna ever was around Monaco? But you would not have though that after watching him crash into everyone last Sunday.

Ah, but Lewis has not had an 'out of body' qualifying experience yet, so he's a way to go before he's better that Ayrton round there.....

[The Black Knight]

Racing is racing, some cars are just faster than others, but your driving ability and the ability to handle the car should go up as you move to the higher formula's. If you can't handle it or make the right decisions you should not be racing in that formula. The basic principles of racing and how to overtake as is being discussed here is the same from karting right through to F1.

The basic principles are that if there is an opponent alongside you, then you don't turn in on him. I have been karting for many years and done some single seater races but never have I not realised an opponent is beside me in the position Hammy was in. You can hear it, you can sense it and you can see it in your mirrors.

Hammy had no brain fade. We've seen far more daring maneuvers than that pulled off in the past.

[555-04Q2]

Ah, but Lewis has not had an 'out of body' qualifying experience yet, so he's a way to go before he's better that Ayrton round there.....

Define "out of body" :p :

[555-04Q2]

Hammy had no brain fade.

I think Massa, Mouldy and Co. would disagree with you here ;)

Last Sunday was not the normal Hammy that we all love to see racing. It was as if someone like Crashing Sato or Swerving Irvine was sitting in that Macca...not Hammy.

[Tumbo]

I think we are getting our wires crossed here and you are getting defensive because you think I am part of the 'Lewis Brigade' and am jumping on any criticism of the guy. I'm clearly not. :)

Sounds good then - i'm certainly no 'Lewis basher' either but more than happy to pull him up in this instance as I feel he was on the wire all race. One can only hope we see Catalunya Lewis at the next race ;)

[The Black Knight]

Another word on this, I do expect to see Maldonado involved in a lot more incidents like this. Drivers like him tend to repeat things like this. Eventually you will all look back and realise Hammy was right :p

[SGWilko]

Define "out of body" :p :

Monaco Grand Prix 1988

Ayrton Senna was in his debut season with McLaren when he once again excelled on the streets of Monte Carlo.

The Sao Paulo native was now teammates with Alain Prost, but that did not prevent him out-performing his colleague emphatically in Monaco.

Senna claimed a stunning pole position, pushing himself to the limit en route to a lap two seconds faster than the quickest Prost could muster.

His imperious form continued into the race as Senna dominated from the front, rampaging through the street circuit to build up a lead of 55 seconds over Prost before sensationally crashing into the barriers on lap 67.

He later claimed his superior speed around the harbor circuit was the result of an outer-body experience beyond his “conscious understanding”, but it was Prost who claimed the checkered flag

From: AT&T Williams (http://www.attwilliams.com/forum/the-fast-and-the-furious-ayrton-sennas-greatest-f1-moments)

[555-04Q2]

Another word on this, I do expect to see Maldonado involved in a lot more incidents like this. Drivers like him tend to repeat things like this. Eventually you will all look back and realise Hammy was right :p

We are going to have to talk again at the end of the season then ;)

[555-04Q2]

Monaco Grand Prix 1988

Ayrton Senna was in his debut season with McLaren when he once again excelled on the streets of Monte Carlo.

The Sao Paulo native was now teammates with Alain Prost, but that did not prevent him out-performing his colleague emphatically in Monaco.

Senna claimed a stunning pole position, pushing himself to the limit en route to a lap two seconds faster than the quickest Prost could muster.

His imperious form continued into the race as Senna dominated from the front, rampaging through the street circuit to build up a lead of 55 seconds over Prost before sensationally crashing into the barriers on lap 67.

He later claimed his superior speed around the harbor circuit was the result of an outer-body experience beyond his “conscious understanding”, but it was Prost who claimed the checkered flag

From: AT&T Williams (http://www.attwilliams.com/forum/the-fast-and-the-furious-ayrton-sennas-greatest-f1-moments)

I remember Monaco 88 (I was just 11 at the time and a Prost fan), but when he talked about it, it sounded more like he had smoked a joint and that was his "out of body" experience :p :

[SGWilko]

I remember Monaco 88 (I was just 11 at the time and a Prost fan), but when he talked about it, it sounded more like he had smoked a joint and that was his "out of body" experience :p :

It was all academic in the end, as he stacked it after being told to ease off in the race. But that was typical Ayrton - he gave it everything in his quest to utterly destroy Prost on the racetrack, and his 2 seconds faster qually lap is a testament to this pursuit.

[The Black Knight]

We are going to have to talk again at the end of the season then ;)

Indeed. It may even take another season or two but you'll eventually realise I was right :D

[555-04Q2]

It was all academic in the end, as he stacked it after being told to ease off in the race. But that was typical Ayrton - he gave it everything in his quest to utterly destroy Prost on the racetrack, and his 2 seconds faster qually lap is a testament to this pursuit.

He was a very unique and driven individual :up: I loved his fights with Prost. They were legendary :)

[555-04Q2]

Indeed. It may even take another season or two but you'll eventually realise I was right :D

Cheeky SOB :p :

[Garry Walker]

Monaco Grand Prix 1988

Ayrton Senna was in his debut season with McLaren when he once again excelled on the streets of Monte Carlo.

The Sao Paulo native was now teammates with Alain Prost, but that did not prevent him out-performing his colleague emphatically in Monaco.

Senna claimed a stunning pole position, pushing himself to the limit en route to a lap two seconds faster than the quickest Prost could muster.

His imperious form continued into the race as Senna dominated from the front, rampaging through the street circuit to build up a lead of 55 seconds over Prost before sensationally crashing into the barriers on lap 67.

He later claimed his superior speed around the harbor circuit was the result of an outer-body experience beyond his “conscious understanding”, but it was Prost who claimed the checkered flag

From: AT&T Williams (http://www.attwilliams.com/forum/the-fast-and-the-furious-ayrton-sennas-greatest-f1-moments)

McLaren said long time ago that the crash was due to a slow puncture.