Team orders at Ferrari

[ArrowsFA1]

...the FIA stated that a breach of Article 39.1, which bans team orders, and 151c, which relates to bringing the sport into disrepute, had been committed....Fine $100,000. The case will also be referred to the FIA World Motorsport Council for further consideration."
Link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85552)

The merits, or otherwise, of the team order rule is a thread in itself but the fact remains that the rule is in place and the stewards ruled that Ferrari broke it, and in doing so brought the sport into disrepute. Ferrari have chosen not to appeal.

[truefan72]

Dave just a question for you...what's the difference between what happent on Sunday and what happent in Hockenheim in 2008 between Lewis and Kovalainen ?

oh and another thing

I don't recall any outrage, any newspaper articles, any sanctions, any fines, any discussions on this board yourself included about that pass. It simply was a non factor to the race. In the massa/alonso situation, the outcome of the race was decided by that decision from ferrari to the detriment of all, themselves included.

[wmcot]

...F1 is for the fans. Not shareholders, not board members, fans. The fans who buy the merchandise, who the sponsors appeal to, who buy the race tickets. If they're annoyed, you're doing something wrong, regardless of what the rules say!

The fans don't even generate enough money to pay for the track to hold the race! Take away the sponsors' money and you have no racing!

[wmcot]

Agrees on everything except the first sentence. At the last lap Felipe slowed down to almost zero speed and let MS thrue, anyway, it was only four cars on the track, a farse.

It sounds like you are thinking of the 2005 USGP with only six cars on track and MS did put a good move on RB for the lead.

[wmcot]

Dave just a question for you...what's the difference between what happent on Sunday and what happent in Hockenheim in 2008 between Lewis and Kovalainen ?

McLarens aren't red and made in Italy! :)

[wmcot]

No but you claimed he has just started watching F1 this weekend, and to discuss it for 9 years I'd expect someone to have some prior knowledge rather than blagging for so many years.. I'm just kidding with you, its besides the point. :p

I do have a serious question for you guys though. Is F1 a business or a sport? My interpretations of both are:

A sport is where individuals compete in order to prove themselves as the best in their category. They want to win at all costs and clinch the ultimate prize whether thats a gold medal, or a championship.

A business is where a company has a series of employee's who work in the best interests of their employer. The outcome of their actions is to get the best possible advantage for their business, whether thats making money or getting their companies reputation in the best possible light.

Lots of people are saying that F1 is a business which it is to a certain degree, but is it possible to pose as both? F1 is a sport which attracts fans from across the globe and each fan has a favourite team or driver who they enjoy supporting. In football if someone owned two teams and one team let the other win it would be match fixing. If in horse racing someone owned two horses and the one jockey slowed down to let the other win it would be race fixng. Both highly illegal, but F1 is very different and always has been. But how much is F1 a business and how much is it a sport? Your thoughts? :)

I would say that F1 is a sport until the time comes where the team can benefit from the actions on the track. At that point it becomes a business and decisions have to be made.

To use your football analogy, if you own one team and one player is hot, you make sure he gets the ball. You don't worry about everyone on the team having the same number of opportunities to handle the ball. So, by giving the hot player the ball more, are you "fixing" the game?

[truefan72]

Perhaps you should change your name over to GOD devote since you make such sweeping statements as to what one MUST do and how absolutely correct your opinions are in every way, shape and form. Or alternatively you could possibly understand that there are a large percentage of ppl who are expressing an opinion different to yours and that possibly when it comes to what took place last weekend.

Since you seem to be so in love with Natural Justice let us just for a second take the current lot of rules out of the equation (since they are so 'unjust') and consider what occurred during the race where a driver was leading as a result of an on-track incident going into the first corner and managed to maintain that lead until a team order to pull over.

Now a lot seem to say were it not for Vettel then Alonso would have been leading not Massa - MOOT POINT, this is racing and when a racing incident occurs then you say probably should have fallen one way but ultimately it resulted in this (rather than say a team-mate crashing into the barricades to let you take your first win of the season......there a blatent action designed to manipulate the results).

In relation to the 'unjust' rule - interesting to see that in the 8yrs since this rule was put into place 2 things have occurred. Firstly, there haven't been any team-order controversies bar Piquet into the wall (which became apparent 12mths on) and the whole FA 'they're favouring the upstart' McLaren debacle in 2007. Secondly, as mentioned there have been actions taken on the track which has resulted in the end of race standings matching those sought by the team. In all of this there has been minimal outcry and no talk of 'an unjust rule'. The reason being that the letter of the law was followed by acting in a way which best met the intended spirit of the law. What happened on the weekend was akin to Austria 2002 in terms of breaking the spirit of way in which 'team orders' have been seen but went further as now thanks to that day 8yrs ago we have a rule in place.

Natural Justice principles would guide one to state that outside the regulations there is an expectation from the organising body, your fellow competitors and the viewing public that while there is an expectation that teams will act in their best interests they will not manipulate races in such a blatent and disgraceful manner.......cause seriously if FA was that much faster he should have been able to pass, and if he has the talent he claims to and which 2 WDCs point to he should be able to do so w/out bleeting on the radio. Even if the rule is 'unjust' (which is difficult to comprehend given what was previously mentioned about lack of prior complaints and the ways in which teams have successfully without controversy achieved their intended means) you have to look at the fact that Ferrari has signed up to the rule every yr that it has been in place. They never used their veto power in relation to this rule. They never sought for the ruling to be changed. They never put forward an amendment to the rule so that it's intended 'spirit' might be better achieved. As such they have acted in a way which shows they have been in support of this rule.

F1 is something which one signs up to, it is not an existing right to race, there is no natural law stating that one has an entry into this elite club. As such provided the rules do not impinge on any existing right they can outline whatever rulings - the main issue would be that there is fair application of all processes (well here Ferrari had the right to put their case to the Stewards, there will be a WMSC hearing and of course a finding will be handed down which will hopefully show fair and due process - including ACTUAL implimentation of process if they are found guilty) and that all teams have been held to the same standard (well McLaren were nailed to the wall over spygate, Renault were nailed to the wall over crashgate so it isn't as if other teams skirting the outside of the rules have gotten away scott-free).

It is probably best to finish off talking about Martin Luther King Jnr who probably summed it up best:

"I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law."

Well if Ferrari feel the law is unjust then how about they TAKE their penalty and show it so for that very reason? Other than having it changed retrospectively and getting away scott free.


post of the year :up:

[truefan72]

I would say that F1 is a sport until the time comes where the team can benefit from the actions on the track. At that point it becomes a business and decisions have to be made.

To use your football analogy, if you own one team and one player is hot, you make sure he gets the ball. You don't worry about everyone on the team having the same number of opportunities to handle the ball. So, by giving the hot player the ball more, are you "fixing" the game?

actually that is an incorrect analagy. Theproper one would be if you owned 2 teams and they played each other. one had the big money stars and positioned 4ths up the table and the other were mid pack. That lower ranked team scored first and seemed to control the game, giving them vital points to get closer to the top four, but the decision came down to tell the other team to let the big boys win so they can keep pace with the top 3, denying the smaller team vital points an historic win, and an opportunity to make some serious inroads to the top half of the table. doesn't quite seem right does it?

[wmcot]

actually that is an incorrect analagy. Theproper one would be if you owned 2 teams and they played each other. one had the big money stars and positioned 4ths up the table and the other were mid pack. That lower ranked team scored first and seemed to control the game, giving them vital points to get closer to the top four, but the decision came down to tell the other team to let the big boys win so they can keep pace with the top 3, denying the smaller team vital points an historic win, and an opportunity to make some serious inroads to the top half of the table. doesn't quite seem right does it?

No, I think my analogy was quite correct and fits this situation properly.

Both drivers are on the same team, it's not as if they are on two teams as you are suggesting. That would be more like McLaren asking Williams to let Hakkinen through so he could get his first win! Oh wait...they did that...where was the outcry?

[Dave B]

That would be more like McLaren asking Williams to let Hakkinen through so he could get his first win! Oh wait...they did that...where was the outcry?

Back in 1997 when team orders were legal, in a race where the championship was already settled? There's a slight difference between then and Hockheim 2010.

I've copied my comment below over from another thread, but it seems particularly apposite here.

I've never liked team orders, but perversely I've never liked the rule which bans them. But forget "integrity" for a moment, and all this bumgravy that's often spouted about the "spirit of the rules".

If it's allowed then you do it, even if it seems unfair or unsporting.

If it's banned then you don't do it, even if you think the rule banning it is unjust.

If you don't like the rule, then campaign to have it changed or go and race somewhere else.

What you don't do is pay your entry fee and agree to abide by the rules of the sport, then whine like a baby when those self-same rules don't suit you.

[Rusty Spanner]

All I can say is thank god Ferrari have been prevented from becoming a 3 car team!

[Dave B]

All I can say is thank god Ferrari have been prevented from becoming a 3 car team!
Felipe, Alonso...is...faster...than.... oh wait a minute....Fernando, Valentino is even faster. :p

[555-04Q2]

He was losing time - Alonso also had to move through traffic.

Massa's lead went from 3 seconds to gearbox close - that is SLOWER and Alonso passed him.

No matter how you wish to spin it - it is not possible for someone to be quicker AND be caught.

Just look and you will also see that Alonso's quickest lap on lap 66 and Massa's also on lap 66 was quicker than Massa.

But this is a technical matter - the point is moot in my view.

Even if Alonso was 10 seconds behind Massa - it is Ferrari's right and the proper traditon of motor racing always, that the number 2 driver [Massa] move aside for the number 1 driver [Alonso] at a team's instruction.

I think you need to watch the race again (as I have) and see the lap times and how Alonso was able to catch Massa. Until you do that, I cannot explain any more to you.

[wedge]

What has annoyed people is the blatancy and the fact some members of Ferrari are claiming it never happened and some are saying yeah we did it so what?

If Ferrari are silly enough to do it in an obvious way and then have the we are bigger than the sport attitude, then they will surely be man enough to take a severe punishment should it be dished.

Damned if you do, damned it don't admit to team orders.

So what Ferrari to do? The public and media will say its OK for team orders in one instance but not another.

What was so obvious about the team orders from Ferrari? They dropped a hint to Massa and it was down to him, and him only on how it should be executed. Massa did it in such a way that it would create a sh-t storm. If Massa pretended to make a mistake would there still be a fuss?

If it was that obvious why did the stewards take so long to intervene, no investigation message on screen and only when there was a media outcry generated?

The monetary fine was a joke. Why weren't they made into an example? What kind of message does that send out? Ferrari were guilty, well, sort of.

[markabilly]

Damned if you do, damned it don't admit to team orders.

So what Ferrari to do? The public and media will say its OK for team orders in one instance but not another.

What was so obvious about the team orders from Ferrari? They dropped a hint to Massa and it was down to him, and him only on how it should be executed. Massa did it in such a way that it would create a sh-t storm. If Massa pretended to make a mistake would there still be a fuss?

If it was that obvious why did the stewards take so long to intervene, no investigation message on screen and only when there was a media outcry generated?

The monetary fine was a joke. Why weren't they made into an example? What kind of message does that send out? Ferrari were guilty, well, sort of.
in other words, as practiced by the others, cheating is okay, as long as you do not get caught.

Tried this kind of argument on a judge many years ago, that there were many others speeding much worse than me on the road and day in question...and that the limit was much too low, a newer three lane road that was set at 30mph, the same speed the road had been back as a single lane, beat up old road before it was re-built......and the judge said, plenty of people get away with murder, but does that mean someone should be permitted to walk out the door because others escape their just punishment???

and then the little twit doubled the fine, though I had said sorry, did not mean to be going so fast..like 40 mph..... :(

[Retro Formula 1]

in other words, as practiced by the others, cheating is okay, as long as you do not get caught.

Tried this kind of argument on a judge many years ago, that there were many others speeding much worse than me on the road and day in question...and that the limit was much too low, a newer three lane road that was set at 30mph, the same speed the road had been back as a single lane, beat up old road before it was re-built......and the judge said, plenty of people get away with murder, but does that mean someone should be permitted to walk out the door because others escape their just punishment???

and then the little twit doubled the fine, though I had said sorry, did not mean to be going so fast..like 40 mph..... :(

With Judges and Policemen, the best thing to do is say sorry and look repentant. Not stick two fingers up at them as Ferrari seem to do :laugh:

I can just imagine Alonso in front of the WMSC.

"But why are you penalising me. Singapore was much worse and I never got done there so you should let me off with this one too!!"

[Dave B]

Quality:

http://www.unlap.co.uk/79-rob-smedley-bacon-sandwich-icons-t-shirt.html

:D

[wedge]

in other words, as practiced by the others, cheating is okay, as long as you do not get caught.

Tried this kind of argument on a judge many years ago, that there were many others speeding much worse than me on the road and day in question...and that the limit was much too low, a newer three lane road that was set at 30mph, the same speed the road had been back as a single lane, beat up old road before it was re-built......and the judge said, plenty of people get away with murder, but does that mean someone should be permitted to walk out the door because others escape their just punishment???

and then the little twit doubled the fine, though I had said sorry, did not mean to be going so fast..like 40 mph..... :(

It's not even that. On what basis were Ferrari guilty of?

Team orders are banned but it's acceptable to execute them in one way but not another. It's such a great grey area the speeding analogies is flawed: you either broke the limit or you didn't, how far over is meaningless.

[wedge]

Quality:

http://www.unlap.co.uk/79-rob-smedley-bacon-sandwich-icons-t-shirt.html

:D

Is there one with 'Magnanimous' followed by dictionary style definition?

[Dave B]

I'm going to order one of those and then see if I'm brave enough to wear it to Monza!

[Retro Formula 1]

Quality:

http://www.unlap.co.uk/79-rob-smedley-bacon-sandwich-icons-t-shirt.html

:D

Love it :laugh:

[Big Ben]

It's not even that. On what basis were Ferrari guilty of?

Team orders are banned but it's acceptable to execute them in one way but not another. It's such a great grey area the speeding analogies is flawed: you either broke the limit or you didn't, how far over is meaningless.

Apparently for not using the right BS when giving the team orders.

[Retro Formula 1]

Apparently for not using the right BS when giving the team orders.

Hallelujah!!!

Give that man a biscuit!

Rightly or wrongly, team orders happen but if Ferrari were a bit more sensible, there would have been no fuss.

It's just that they made ... ... it ... ... so ... ... ... bloody ... ... ... obvious.

Confirm ... you ... understand ... this !!! ;)

[AndyL]

With Judges and Policemen, the best thing to do is say sorry and look repentant.

...whilst carefully avoiding making any admission that might be usable in court.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's just that they made ... ... it ... ... so ... ... ... bloody ... ... ... obvious.
One of the lines of defence used by Ferrari in the aftermath of Austria '02 was they had been open about what they were doing; they hadn't tried to hide anything. Well...yes...but...only because Rubens made the switch so obvious. History repeats itself because Rob and Felipe did the same job this time around.

[wedge]

Hallelujah!!!

Give that man a biscuit!

Rightly or wrongly, team orders happen but if Ferrari were a bit more sensible, there would have been no fuss.

It's just that they made ... ... it ... ... so ... ... ... bloody ... ... ... obvious.

Confirm ... you ... understand ... this !!! ;)

It was implied and never explicit instructions.

Unless there is great proof there's a great difference when Massa is asked/forced to pull over and being informed that your team mate is quicker.

[wedge]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8864978.stm


The words "Fernando is faster than you" are sure to pass into Formula 1 legend, but I heard them from Ferrari around 20 laps before the infamous radio communication was given.

Immediately after the pit stops, I went into the Ferrari garage. The team's spokesman Luca Colajanni was talking to my colleague from RAI, Italy's main TV network. This is quite a common occurrence: Ferrari listen to RAI commentary during the race and there is always communication between team and broadcaster.

Once finished in Italian, I asked what the team were saying to the drivers and what the situation was. At that time, Felipe Massa was just starting to pull away from Fernando Alonso.

Colajanni said the race was progressing as normal, that the cars were running well, but then added "but as you can see, Fernando is faster".

This had been the case all weekend, as Alonso explained in the highly-charged post race press conference. Ferrari were only too well aware of this fact.

I went back to the McLaren garage next door to check on their progress, but could see quite a discussion taking place on the Ferrari pit wall. Team principal Stefano Domenicali was busy talking to chief engineer Chris Dyer. At one point, I saw Dyer put his hand up, with a flat palm. It was the kind of gesture policemen use to stop traffic.

Soon after, Massa pulled out a three-second gap on Alonso. The discussions continued. Massa's race engineer Rob Smedley was on the radio to Felipe every lap. At one point we heard him telling Felipe to concentrate. "The gap is three seconds, keep this going, and you can win", assured Smedley.

But Alonso closed the gap and the rest is history. There were more discussions between Domenicali, Dyer, Smedley and Alonso's engineer Andrea Stella during the five or so laps before lap 48, but once the move was made, all discussions stopped.

[bluegem280]

Hallelujah!!!

Give that man a biscuit!

Rightly or wrongly, team orders happen but if Ferrari were a bit more sensible, there would have been no fuss.

It's just that they made ... ... it ... ... so ... ... ... bloody ... ... ... obvious.

Confirm ... you ... understand ... this !!! ;)
I believe Alonso would buckle down in the battle if he race against different teams, or driver other than Massa. What sprang to his mind if they made contact he's worried of Massa would attack him verbally and said Alonso did it on purpose again. That's not nice..

Alonso already gave some attempts, but Massa didn't seem to understand it. Alonso would better back off, try to understand Massa, make some gaps and get closer to show that in fact he is faster.

I understand the message he must go quicker, Massa misunderstood it.. ;)

[airshifter]

ok. Have I said that he started discussing f1 this weekend?

He hasn't noticed just how difficult it is to overtake in f1 even when the car in front is just slightly slower. But then again you might have to ignore some facts when the whole point is bashing a driver or a team.

Facts?

The fact is that Ferrari have been fined $100,000 for violating Article 39.1 of the sporting regulations. Stefano isn't going to appeal that decision. What facts are present that show that Fernando made an actual pass under normal racing conditions? None that I can find.


As for biases, I've considered myself borderline Tifosi for years, but not blinded due to the fact that I want to see at least half the field in strong competitive cars. I'd really rather see Kubica somehow bring the Renault past the field and win than anyone else this year, simply because I think all of the top teams have been idiots.

I simply prefer that racing be racing. I don't and have never liked team orders, but when they were legal they were legal and I accepted that. I think in a situation two drivers on the same team are racing, they should both respect the teams investment and do the best they can to not trash the cars. But at the end of the day I want the best driver/car combo to win the race.

If we are going to allow team orders, blatant or otherwise, then maybe we should just make F1 time trials. That way the fastest car wins. Or they could allow team orders again and remove the WDC from the equation. If it's a team effort, why call it an individual title?

I'm more than aware of the difficulty in passing in F1, but also aware of why I like seeing racing, and not rigged spectacles that insult the viewers with such blatant cheating.

[wmcot]

Back in 1997 when team orders were legal, in a race where the championship was already settled? There's a slight difference between then and Hockheim 2010.

I've copied my comment below over from another thread, but it seems particularly apposite here.

I've never liked team orders, but perversely I've never liked the rule which bans them. But forget "integrity" for a moment, and all this bumgravy that's often spouted about the "spirit of the rules".

If it's allowed then you do it, even if it seems unfair or unsporting.

If it's banned then you don't do it, even if you think the rule banning it is unjust.

If you don't like the rule, then campaign to have it changed or go and race somewhere else.

What you don't do is pay your entry fee and agree to abide by the rules of the sport, then whine like a baby when those self-same rules don't suit you.

So do you believe that since the 2002 "ban" this has been the first time team orders were used?

If so, then you must be watching F1 through your McLaren factory-issued spectacles.
If you don't believe this, then why weren't the fans outraged at the other uses of team orders?

[markabilly]

It was implied and never explicit instructions.

Unless there is great proof there's a great difference when Massa is asked/forced to pull over and being informed that your team mate is quicker.

Dude, you might have had a great argument, indeed, even a winning argument, but for Ferrari blowing the bottom out of your boat.

As one old lawyer once said, when your client has a solid case, try to keep them from inflicting irreparable damage upon themselves.......

or the same rule applies in legal disputes and orgies: be sure the person you are "having sex with" is not yourself

First ground establishing quilt as a matter of law (ie, beyond any factual dispute):
Ferrari contested the stewards hearing and argued no team orders. Stewards disagreed and hit them with the max fine.
No appeal taken.
In a court of law, that is what is known as res judicata, and a party who fails to appeal, is stuck with the finding (in this case that they cheated) and can no longer argue to the contrary; they are stuck with the label as a matter of law.
This was not a plea bargain or a settlement where a party pays without admitting fault. Too late for that. :rolleyes:

Second ground as a matter of law (ie beyond dispute):

Luca's own website establishes guilt, yet again. And makes it sound as though Luca is proud to do it in your face

Duh...... :rolleyes:

Third ground:
The radio transmission before and right after the pass....esp. the "good boy"


well double duh..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
while number three might arguably be gotten around with some fine lawyer work........the other two are fatal.

reminds me of a young nurse telling me how she hated doctors, because she never got over what happened on her first night of training in an Emergency room. A patient was wheeled in, and the doc took one look and said "mark him down as another Dead on arrival......NEXT"

She blurted out, "are you not even going to try to help him or even look at him?"

He responded, "well sweetie pie (and some other stuff) if you will find where they left his head and bring it to me, I will sew it back on....." :dozey:

She then acquired the nickname of "sew-it-back" among many of her profession, including docs

[truefan72]

I simply prefer that racing be racing. I don't and have never liked team orders, but when they were legal they were legal and I accepted that. I think in a situation two drivers on the same team are racing, they should both respect the teams investment and do the best they can to not trash the cars. But at the end of the day I want the best driver/car combo to win the race.

If we are going to allow team orders, blatant or otherwise, then maybe we should just make F1 time trials. That way the fastest car wins. Or they could allow team orders again and remove the WDC from the equation. If it's a team effort, why call it an individual title?

I'm more than aware of the difficulty in passing in F1, but also aware of why I like seeing racing, and not rigged spectacles that insult the viewers with such blatant cheating.

great post

and this year and in the past passing is possible if you have the gumption to do it like Hamilton and Alonso of old. But this new Alonso seems to have fallen into a much worse entitlement state of mind than MSC ever had in his hey day. At the end of the day MSC did his damage on the track and if he had issues never really took it to the public quite the way Alonso does.

Race victories should be earned and not given. I never liked team orders and never will. I can see the need to support your teammate win the WDC in the closing few GP's when you are out of the wdc fight. that would only be natural. But outright theft of a gP and then get on the podium and prance around like you earned it is pathetic. Especially when you were on the radio cryin to the team to let you win without having to fight. Then later or talking about "team" this and "team" that. It is sad to see such a talented driver sink so low in morality and attitude.

[Tazio]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8864978.stm Originally Posted by
The words "Fernando is faster than you" are sure to pass into Formula 1 legend, but I heard them from Ferrari around 20 laps before the infamous radio communication was given.

Immediately after the pit stops, I went into the Ferrari garage. The team's spokesman Luca Colajanni was talking to my colleague from RAI, Italy's main TV network. This is quite a common occurrence: Ferrari listen to RAI commentary during the race and there is always communication between team and broadcaster.

Once finished in Italian, I asked what the team were saying to the drivers and what the situation was. At that time, Felipe Massa was just starting to pull away from Fernando Alonso.

Colajanni said the race was progressing as normal, that the cars were running well, but then added "but as you can see, Fernando is faster".

This had been the case all weekend, as Alonso explained in the highly-charged post race press conference. Ferrari were only too well aware of this fact.

I went back to the McLaren garage next door to check on their progress, but could see quite a discussion taking place on the Ferrari pit wall. Team principal Stefano Domenicali was busy talking to chief engineer Chris Dyer. At one point, I saw Dyer put his hand up, with a flat palm. It was the kind of gesture policemen use to stop traffic.

Soon after, Massa pulled out a three-second gap on Alonso. The discussions continued. Massa's race engineer Rob Smedley was on the radio to Felipe every lap. At one point we heard him telling Felipe to concentrate. "The gap is three seconds, keep this going, and you can win", assured Smedley.

But Alonso closed the gap and the rest is history. There were more discussions between Domenicali, Dyer, Smedley and Alonso's engineer Andrea Stella during the five or so laps before lap 48, but once the move was made, all discussions stopped :s ailor: I think there is one facet of Ferrari's strategy that is either being ignored or posters are so set on crucifying Fred that it just hasn't occurred to them.
Ferrari (especially Fred) are perilously short on their engine allotment . You may want to argue the letter of the law but I don't. Ferrari knows they cannot risk running in hot dirty air amongst themselves,(most likely why Fred kept dropping his interval back, only to reel Felipe in with ease) and they know Fred is their best hope for a WDC. After the pass the only radio transmission I heard to Fred was: "take it easy on your engine you need it next race" This is a monumental problem that Ferrari got themselves into early in the season. I think it played heavily into the strategy of this race. But by all means... :s ailor: "bash on"

[truefan72]

:s ailor: I think there is one facet of Ferrari's strategy that is either being ignored or posters are so set on crucifying Fred that it just hasn't occurred to them.
Ferrari (especially Fred) are perilously short on their engine allotment . You may want to argue the letter of the law but I don't. Ferrari knows they cannot risk running in hot dirty air amongst themselves, and they know Fred is their best hope for a WDC. After the pass the only radio transmission I heard to Fred was: "take it easy on your engine you need it next race" This is a monumental problem that Ferrari got themselves into early in the season. I think it played heavily into the strategy of this race. But by all means... :s ailor: "bash on"

but that should not be an excuse to cheat.
all teams have the same engine allotments and it up to them to manage it accordingly. What you are effectively advocating is for them to break the rules in order to manage their own shortcomings.

[wmcot]

I'm not a fan of team orders, but I understand them. Each day I walk into my job and I am handed team orders. They're not always fair, but I have the option to quit if I don't agree with them.

Additionally, most popular sports have team orders. A player who doesn't accept them will find himself on the bench or traded to another team that can deal with the problem.

Perhaps we have put F1 on a high pedestal, thinking that it is a "pure" sport in order to take us away from our real worlds every two weeks. Now the pedestal is cracking again. Each time we are frustrated by team orders being employed, another crack appears. For years, we have tried to patch over the cracks, but they still exist beneath the smooth surface we have tried to put on the pedestal. The 2002 ban was just another patch. We can disguise them, but they are still there. They always have been. They always will be.

F1 is not a "pure" sport, but a team sport and a business. As such, there will always be team orders of one kind or another no matter how much we deny they exist.

If you insist on following a sport without team orders, may I suggest golf or tennis...not doubles, of course! ;)

[Tazio]

but that should not be an excuse to cheat.
all teams have the same engine allotments and it up to them to manage it accordingly. What you are effectively advocating is for them to break the rules in order to manage their own shortcomings . .
:s ailor: You may want to argue the letter of the law but I don't. . :s ailor: I'm not advocating anything. I'm simply stating my opinion! An opinion the team may have made in it's own best interest. Not something Fred forced on them. Let's wait and see what the wmsc has to say about it!

[Big Ben]

great post

and this year and in the past passing is possible if you have the gumption to do it like Hamilton and Alonso of old. But this new Alonso seems to have fallen into a much worse entitlement state of mind than MSC ever had in his hey day. At the end of the day MSC did his damage on the track and if he had issues never really took it to the public quite the way Alonso does.

Race victories should be earned and not given. I never liked team orders and never will. I can see the need to support your teammate win the WDC in the closing few GP's when you are out of the wdc fight. that would only be natural. But outright theft of a gP and then get on the podium and prance around like you earned it is pathetic. Especially when you were on the radio cryin to the team to let you win without having to fight. Then later or talking about "team" this and "team" that. It is sad to see such a talented driver sink so low in morality and attitude.

It's all relative actually. The end of the championship is closer for those with less points if you think about it.

Most people are actually outraged not by the team orders but by the fact that it was too obvious and at the same time have a problem with the fact they behaved normally after the race. What should they do? Be ashamed? It was the best result for the team... well... perhaps except Massa but who's fault is that he woke up so late... I'm not even sure he actually has waken up yet... I haven't seen the race but from what I've read Vettel gave him quite a bit of help. It would have been a great mistake not to swap places and obvious or not no team order was issued... the BS they've used is just as good as anyone's.

[Big Ben]

Facts?

The fact is that Ferrari have been fined $100,000 for violating Article 39.1 of the sporting regulations. Stefano isn't going to appeal that decision. What facts are present that show that Fernando made an actual pass under normal racing conditions? None that I can find.


As for biases, I've considered myself borderline Tifosi for years, but not blinded due to the fact that I want to see at least half the field in strong competitive cars. I'd really rather see Kubica somehow bring the Renault past the field and win than anyone else this year, simply because I think all of the top teams have been idiots.

I simply prefer that racing be racing. I don't and have never liked team orders, but when they were legal they were legal and I accepted that. I think in a situation two drivers on the same team are racing, they should both respect the teams investment and do the best they can to not trash the cars. But at the end of the day I want the best driver/car combo to win the race.

If we are going to allow team orders, blatant or otherwise, then maybe we should just make F1 time trials. That way the fastest car wins. Or they could allow team orders again and remove the WDC from the equation. If it's a team effort, why call it an individual title?

I'm more than aware of the difficulty in passing in F1, but also aware of why I like seeing racing, and not rigged spectacles that insult the viewers with such blatant cheating.

That would be an ideal world but this is far from that. Teams are there to win championships. Alonso first and Massa second was the best result for Ferrari and they had the possibility to get it... so why not? Ferrari is fighting RBR and McLaren for the wdc and the wcc not Alonso. This is not McLaren. And everyone seem to foreget that Massa's performance this year was mediocre at best.

And speaking of McLaren what a hypocrite that Withmarsh is. He actually had the nerve to give the 2007 season as an example how they sacrificed a title to treat their drivers fairly. They've sacrificed it all right... by undermining the better driver.

[Big Ben]

Dude, you might have had a great argument, indeed, even a winning argument, but for Ferrari blowing the bottom out of your boat.

As one old lawyer once said, when your client has a solid case, try to keep them from inflicting irreparable damage upon themselves.......

or the same rule applies in legal disputes and orgies: be sure the person you are "having sex with" is not yourself

First ground establishing quilt as a matter of law (ie, beyond any factual dispute):
Ferrari contested the stewards hearing and argued no team orders. Stewards disagreed and hit them with the max fine.
No appeal taken.
In a court of law, that is what is known as res judicata, and a party who fails to appeal, is stuck with the finding (in this case that they cheated) and can no longer argue to the contrary; they are stuck with the label as a matter of law.
This was not a plea bargain or a settlement where a party pays without admitting fault. Too late for that. :rolleyes:

Second ground as a matter of law (ie beyond dispute):

Luca's own website establishes guilt, yet again. And makes it sound as though Luca is proud to do it in your face

Duh...... :rolleyes:

Third ground:
The radio transmission before and right after the pass....esp. the "good boy"


well double duh..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
while number three might arguably be gotten around with some fine lawyer work........the other two are fatal.

reminds me of a young nurse telling me how she hated doctors, because she never got over what happened on her first night of training in an Emergency room. A patient was wheeled in, and the doc took one look and said "mark him down as another Dead on arrival......NEXT"

She blurted out, "are you not even going to try to help him or even look at him?"

He responded, "well sweetie pie (and some other stuff) if you will find where they left his head and bring it to me, I will sew it back on....." :dozey:

She then acquired the nickname of "sew-it-back" among many of her profession, including docs

It's all interesting but this is not a court of law...far from it. If they appeal they have a very good chance to get a bigger penalty. It's quite common not to appeal anything in f1.

[Hawkmoon]

The thing that makes motorsport unusual, if not unique, is that the team is effectively competing against itself. In no other sport does one half of the team compete against the other half.

F1 teams have to balance the shared goal of the WCC with the competing goal of the WDC. Not an enviable task. To make matters worse the media and the fans place more importance on the individual competition of the WDC and throw a hissy fit if they feel that competition has been fiddled with.

[Mia 01]

The article is about Massa and 3* teamorders. the thing is that I´m not god at the german language.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/alonso-forderte-stallregie-massa-erst-beim-dritten-befehl-vom-gas-1948929.html

[Retro Formula 1]

It's all interesting but this is not a court of law...far from it. If they appeal they have a very good chance to get a bigger penalty. It's quite common not to appeal anything in f1.


I think you will find that the Stewards slapped them with the Maximum fine they could and also referred them to the WMSC.

If they wanted to appeal the fine, they couldn't do any worse.

BTW, did you write that you hadn't seen the race. That would answer a few questions, especially as you state that both drivers acted normally after the race. Nothing could be further from the truth!!!

[555-04Q2]

I think people are missing the point here. There is a major difference between a hint and an order. Massa was never ordered to do anything.

[Dave B]

I think people are missing the point here. There is a major difference between a hint and an order. Massa was never ordered to do anything.
By the same token, do you seriously think that Rob Smedley's words - delivered so deliberately and carefully - were merely a "hint"?

[555-04Q2]

By the same token, do you seriously think that Rob Smedley's words - delivered so deliberately and carefully - were merely a "hint"?

Yes. No one could jump into the cockit of Massa's car mid rance and force him let Alonso past. Only Massa could make that decision in the end. Massa moved over for Alonso of his own choice, not Smedley's.

[Dave B]

I guess you and I have different understandings of what constitutes a "hint" as opposed to a flimsily disguised order. You cannot be that naive, surely, to think that Massa got out of the way through pure generosity to Alonso, sacrificing a win and in the process sending out a clear message that he'd given up on the drivers' championship.

[Mark]

The thing that makes motorsport unusual, if not unique, is that the team is effectively competing against itself. In no other sport does one half of the team compete against the other half.

Cycle racing. They compete as teams but the races results are counted for the individual riders. It's not uncommon in some teams to have two riders capable of winning overall or in a sprint. But then you have other riders in the team who's sole job it is to support the main riders.

Team orders are not only allowed but are a critical element of the strategy of getting their preferred rider to the finish first.

[555-04Q2]

I guess you and I have different understandings of what constitutes a "hint" as opposed to a flimsily disguised order. You cannot be that naive, surely, to think that Massa got out of the way through pure generosity to Alonso, sacrificing a win and in the process sending out a clear message that he'd given up on the drivers' championship.

We both know that Massa moved over because he felt he had too. However, no one said Massa you have to move over or else...this is an order. They dropped a hint and he made up his own mind what to do about it.

[Hawkmoon]

Cycle racing. They compete as teams but the races results are counted for the individual riders. It's not uncommon in some teams to have two riders capable of winning overall or in a sprint. But then you have other riders in the team who's sole job it is to support the main riders.

Team orders are not only allowed but are a critical element of the strategy of getting their preferred rider to the finish first.

I have to confess a certain ignorance when it comes to cycle racing as I find it about as enjoyable as having my testicles slammed in a drawer.

Nobody seems to get their panties in a bunch when team orders are used however.

[Dave B]

Nobody seems to get their panties in a bunch when team orders are used however.

Does cycling have a specific rule which clearly states that orders team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited?

I repeat - and I'm a little tired of repeating it - there is certainly a debate to be had whether the rule needs clarifying or abolishing; there are many posts here sympathetic to the idea that team orders are part and parcel of the sport. But the point remains that Ferrari signed up for the 2010 season knowing full well such orders were prohibited, then chose to break the rules.

[donKey jote]

"Ze Rulez are ze Rulez", repeateth der Brock for ze umpteenth mal :p

[Dave B]

"Ze Rulez are ze Rulez", repeateth der Brock for ze umpteenth mal :p
Massa: I voz only obeying ze orders! :p

Aren't we dangerously close to violating Godwin's Law here ;)

We have FOTA and the Technical Working Group both able the influence the rules, so if they don't like team orders being banned they can lobby the FIA. But until such time as the rule is changed, obey it even if you don't agree with it.

[I am evil Homer]

We both know that Massa moved over because he felt he had too. However, no one said Massa you have to move over or else...this is an order. They dropped a hint and he made up his own mind what to do about it.

Ha ha ha....i'd love to live in youir world of rainbows and unicorns where people are free to do whatever they want.

[donKey jote]

The article is about Massa and 3* teamorders. the thing is that I´m not god at the german language.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/alonso-forderte-stallregie-massa-erst-beim-dritten-befehl-vom-gas-1948929.html
It says the team orders came after the third request from Alonso :)
loosely translated:
1st came after the pit stop, but despite them almost touching, the team said no...
then he let the gap increase to 3.4 seconds, which made his engineer nervous:
"no probs, I'll get it back" said Alonso and he closed it again at will to prove he was faster... a slap in the face for Massa
when they were in convoy again, Massa waited till the third (I guess the one we heard) request before acting
the "well done, sorry" comments brought the stewards' response.



I've been thinking... who decides what to broadcast, Bernie?
The same Bernie who has just come out defending team orders?
Who's playing games with the fans?

[donKey jote]

Aren't we dangerously close to violating Godwin's Law here ;)

:andrea: :p

[wedge]

By the same token, do you seriously think that Rob Smedley's words - delivered so deliberately and carefully - were merely a "hint"?

And by the same token so is the reiteration and deliberation of 'saving fuel' at the Turkish GP and nobody complains.

It comes down to how good of a liar you are without looking like a kid with his hand caught in the cookie jar.

[markabilly]

:s ailor: I think there is one facet of Ferrari's strategy that is either being ignored or posters are so set on crucifying Fred that it just hasn't occurred to them.
Ferrari (especially Fred) are perilously short on their engine allotment . You may want to argue the letter of the law but I don't. Ferrari knows they cannot risk running in hot dirty air amongst themselves,(most likely why Fred kept dropping his interval back, only to reel Felipe in with ease) and they know Fred is their best hope for a WDC. After the pass the only radio transmission I heard to Fred was: "take it easy on your engine you need it next race" This is a monumental problem that Ferrari got themselves into early in the season. I think it played heavily into the strategy of this race. But by all means... :s ailor: "bash on"


Perhaps Luca needs to figure out how they can break the seal and 'refresh" those engines....so no one needs to know, and would be perfectly within his announced philosophy on his website

Saint would say it is the natural law of justice.

Me, I think this rule is even dumber, far dumber, than the no team orders rule.
Its only justification is to save costs, yet top teams now spend millions on special parts to keep engine reliability up...and with no real testing, millions more on wind tunnels and computer work.....indeed Mac is able to run their simulator car in such a manner as to set up their race car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


It's all interesting but this is not a court of law...far from it. If they appeal they have a very good chance to get a bigger penalty. It's quite common not to appeal anything in f1.

Actually this process is a recognized form of contractual arbitration, recognized and enforced by the courts under international law, that was agreed to when the teams signed off on the agreements involved in F1.

Someone like Ferrari or Flav must first exhusat all administrative remedies, then can go to a formal court of law for an appeal, but by law, the courts are required to uphold the adminstrative findings unless those findings (including the WMSC) are procured by fraud and bribery, along with totally lacking any support of any evidence, as in lacking even one percent of any arguable evidence.

ferrari has chopped its own head off....and not even "sew-it-back" can help


And by the same token so is the reiteration and deliberation of 'saving fuel' at the Turkish GP and nobody complains.

It comes down to how good of a liar you are without looking like a kid with his hand caught in the cookie jar.
TRUE, VERY TRUE, but some have fussed.....including me.

But now you are arguing that smeone else breaking a rule at a racce without getting caught means you are entitled to break the rule at another race

[Valve Bounce]

I think people are missing the point here. There is a major difference between a hint and an order. Massa was never ordered to do anything.

Right!! :rolleyes:

[Retro Formula 1]

Why don't we all agree to disagree on this one. If 555 thinks he wasn't ordered over then that's his opinion and lets respect it.

We have a different opinion which is equally as valid.

Both can be right because he wasn't actually ordered to let Alonso through but the FIA and overwhelming majority of viewers believe the radio transmission was a coded order.

Lets move along?

[SGWilko]

Thank the lord the copper from Allo Allo was not the guy on the radio to Massa;

'Alonso is going to piss'

;)

[Bagwan]

From Motorsport.com :
"Felipe Massa on Thursday insisted he is not Ferrari's number two driver, confirming he is aiming for victory this weekend in Hungary.

Since Hockenheim, where the Brazilian obeyed a team order to let teammate Fernando Alonso win, Brazilian cartoonists have depicted Massa as a puppet.

"People will see him now as a 'yes man' who bends to the will of the company," David Coulthard wrote in his latest Telegraph column.

"And maybe they are right. Team player or stooge? The line is thin."

Mercedes' Norbert Haug said at a pre-race press conference in Hungary that the application of a driver hierarchy can affect motivation.

"If you say 'you are number two' ... it's a complex issue," said the German.

"If the drivers are not fully motivated you will not achieve anything. That needs to be kept in mind," added Haug.

Massa told reporters at the Hungaroring that he is aiming to win this weekend's race, where last year he suffered life-threatening injuries in a qualifying crash.

"The time I have to I say I am the number two driver, I will not race anymore," he pledged.

Earlier, he arrived at the Budapest venue with Ferrari team boss Stefano Domenicali."


I have also read that he has said that he won't move over for Alonso to pass again .
Has he got an "openly defying the management is OK" clause in his contract ?

[555-04Q2]

Wow. Everyone seems to know for a fact that Massa was ordered to move over. Ok, where is the radio transmission copy that says, "Massa let Alonso past. That is an order." What? There isn't one?

Massa made up his own mind to let Alonso past. He could have continued racing Alonso if he wanted, he chose not too.

And yes Homer Simpson, we are all free to make our own decisions in life, no matter how nice or bad they are. The ones we choose define our future.

[555-04Q2]

Why don't we all agree to disagree on this one. If 555 thinks he wasn't ordered over then that's his opinion and lets respect it.

We have a different opinion which is equally as valid.

Both can be right because he wasn't actually ordered to let Alonso through but the FIA and overwhelming majority of viewers believe the radio transmission was a coded order.

Lets move along?

Good to see that at least one other person here arrived at this thread with their brain engaged.

[ArrowsFA1]

Bagwan has already posted a report of Massa's comments, and they've also appeared on Autosport (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85628).

This stood out to me:
When asked what would happen if he was faced with the same situation this weekend, Massa replied: "I will win."

So why was he ordered/did he choose to move over in Germany :confused:

[555-04Q2]

Only Massa knows the answer to that question.

[Dave B]

Massa sticks to the party line (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85628)that it was in the best interests of the team:


If the team really has the chance to win the championship, I want the best for the team

So remind me, what's the difference between 25+18 and 18+25?

I think he's confusing "the team" with "my team mate" :s

[redson]

Massa sticks to the party line (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85628)that it was in the best interests of the team:



So remind me, what's the difference between 25+18 and 18+25?

I think he's confusing "the team" with "my team mate" :s

The difference is that with Alonso winning the race Ferrari have more chances of winning both titles than if Massa had won the race.

[Dave B]

The difference is that with Alonso winning the race Ferrari have more chances of winning both titles than if Massa had won the race.
But that entirely conflicts with Massa's statement that he's not a #2 driver - the season is only just over the halfway point. Maybe he genuinely believes that in his head; maybe he doesn't want to admit to the world that he's no longer in the championship hunt because of a clause in his contract.

Either way, he's been shafted by Ferrari. He's not the first and he won't be the last. Such a shame. Me, I'd be on the phone to Renault offering to replace Petrov. Next race.

[ArrowsFA1]

The difference is that with Alonso winning the race Ferrari have more chances of winning both titles than if Massa had won the race.
But if the same situation arises this weekend Massa has said "I will win".

[wedge]

Either way, he's been shafted by Ferrari. He's not the first and he won't be the last. Such a shame. Me, I'd be on the phone to Renault offering to replace Petrov. Next race.

Pointless

Gerard Lopez has already admitted that he's building the team round Kubica because the Pole wants preferential treatment

[Dave B]

Nice tweet from @willbuxton:

Anagram of "Fernando Alonso Felipe Massa" = "F one fans rile on pass ALO made."

:laugh:

[passmeatissue]

Seems to me Felipe is saying if he had his time again he'd defy the team and keep the win.

I think he should have, too. The team would've been mad, but I think he's found the alternative is worse.

[Bagwan]

But that entirely conflicts with Massa's statement that he's not a #2 driver - the season is only just over the halfway point. Maybe he genuinely believes that in his head; maybe he doesn't want to admit to the world that he's no longer in the championship hunt because of a clause in his contract.

Either way, he's been shafted by Ferrari. He's not the first and he won't be the last. Such a shame. Me, I'd be on the phone to Renault offering to replace Petrov. Next race.

They pay him millions to race the car .
Let's have a little perspective here . That's millions , Dave .

He's simply not as fast as his team-mate .

When he's been in the hunt , at the same team , he's been given the favoured position , but now cries about the shoe being on the other foot .
Felipe baby and his buddy Dyer should feel pretty happy they still are employed .

[Retro Formula 1]

but now cries about the shoe being on the other foot .


Not on the other foot! He drives for another team altogether: Mercedes.

Surely he doesn't have to move over for him any more? :cool:

[Bagwan]

Why would Chris Dyer be responsible apart from helping to make the decision for the team order? Him and Domenicali would have discussed the strategy and then asked Smedley to pass on the message. Maybe Dyer should have adopted his old role as race engineer and done the dirty work himself? That aside I still don't understand why you think he is lucky to have his job? :\

Sorry , henners , I meant Smedley , not Dyers .


One thing I haven't seen noted anywhere , is that Fernando , as a result of taking first instead of second , is now within a win of the leading man in the championship , at 24 points back .

Realizing this , it shows far more obviously , why Ferrari did what they did .
They are now one win away from the lead .

[Tazio]

Sorry , henners , I meant Smedley , not Dyers .


One thing I haven't seen noted anywhere , is that Fernando , as a result of taking first instead of second , is now within a win of the leading man in the championship , at 24 points back .

Realizing this , it shows far more obviously , why Ferrari did what they did .
They are now one win away from the lead .
:s ailor: Bags the gap is 34 points:

The Boss....157
Fred..........123

[truefan72]

The thing that makes motorsport unusual, if not unique, is that the team is effectively competing against itself. In no other sport does one half of the team compete against the other half.

F1 teams have to balance the shared goal of the WCC with the competing goal of the WDC. Not an enviable task. To make matters worse the media and the fans place more importance on the individual competition of the WDC and throw a hissy fit if they feel that competition has been fiddled with.

...yes, but they were already 1-2 so this was a decision to help alonso in the WDC and give him a win that he did not deserve. All this talk about team is meaningless since they wee on schedule for maximum points already.

[Tazio]

:s ailor: This situation reminds me of when Bill Clinton admitted he smoked ganja but insisted that didn't inhale :confused: :s mokin:

[Hawkmoon]

...yes, but they were already 1-2 so this was a decision to help alonso in the WDC and give him a win that he did not deserve. All this talk about team is meaningless since they wee on schedule for maximum points already.

True, but as everybody keeps saying it's the WDC that matters. Take 2008 for example. Ferrari were gutted despite having won the WCC. McLaren were jubilant despite, in theory, them having won nothing and Hamilton having won the WDC. People kept going on about Ferrari not having won a championship for 21 years despite the fact that they had won 3 WCC in that time.

The WDC is a team victory as much as it is a driver one. Team's will do whatever it takes to get one of their drivers the WDC. That, by nessecity, means one of their drivers has to lose.

[Bagwan]

:s ailor: Bags the gap is 34 points:

The Boss....157
Fred..........123

I guess that would be why nobody has mentioned it .
Never was too good with them number things .

By the way , I think you should call him "Hugo" , instead of "the boss" .
That way it won't seem like one driver is being favoured on that team , too . Hee hee .

[CNR]

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/sport/2010/07/30/56ec0af13956

Speaking ahead of this weekend's Hungarian Grand Prix, Massa says he'll quit the day he becomes a number two driver and that Alonso is not number one at Ferrari.

is it goodbye massa

[Valve Bounce]

"They gave Felipe a good opportunity to win the grand prix as well," said Webber. "They gave him the chance to win the race up to the point where he couldn't pull away from Fernando. Obviously they had a decision in the team where the fastest guy in the team wins the race. The fastest guy on that day won the race."

The faster guy was behind, a safe overtaking manouvre was required where one car did not try to ram the other car like Vettel did in Turkey, the pass was made, and Ferrari scored a 1,2.

What the hell is wrong with that?

This thread is going round and round in circles, and basically getting nowhere. Time to MOVE ON!

Of course, when Vettel buggers up his start and Mark is leading, and then Vettel comes powering up from behind, I wonder what Horner will say to Mark?

Like:" Mark, Seb is behind you and he is going faster, Mark! do you hear Mark? Do you understand Mark? Hello Mark! Hello Mark! testing, testing, testing 1,2,3 Mark ! can you hear me, Mark? :D

[Saint Devote]

"They gave Felipe a good opportunity to win the grand prix as well," said Webber. "They gave him the chance to win the race up to the point where he couldn't pull away from Fernando. Obviously they had a decision in the team where the fastest guy in the team wins the race. The fastest guy on that day won the race."

The faster guy was behind, a safe overtaking manouvre was required where one car did not try to ram the other car like Vettel did in Turkey, the pass was made, and Ferrari scored a 1,2.

What the hell is wrong with that?

This thread is going round and round in circles, and basically getting nowhere. Time to MOVE ON!

Of course, when Vettel buggers up his start and Mark is leading, and then Vettel comes powering up from behind, I wonder what Horner will say to Mark?

Like:" Mark, Seb is behind you and he is going faster, Mark! do you hear Mark? Do you understand Mark? Hello Mark! Hello Mark! testing, testing, testing 1,2,3 Mark ! can you hear me, Mark? :D

:D Mateschitz said that whoever is in front stays in front. He does NOT want what happened in Turkey or Silverstone to recur and the object is to win the Constructors title as well as the WDC.

I think that the RBR managers are well aware that NOT winning at least ONE title will be worse than the days of making THAT phone call back to Maranello to report uncompetitive news.

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah! :( the penalty requires them to drink ten tins of that goop. :eek:

[ioan]

Looks like I missed a lot of fun. :D

Anyway the Austrian commentator mentioned yesterday that the 'Alonso is faster than you' order has been issued 3 times before Massa finally moved over in a blatant way.
This explains why Alonso was complaining earlier in the race and also makes it clear that Massa didn't do it out of love for the team or Alonso, but because of the pressure put on him.

[wedge]

Bagwan has already posted a report of Massa's comments, and they've also appeared on Autosport (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85628).

This stood out to me:


When asked what would happen if he was faced with the same situation this weekend, Massa replied: "I will win."

http://thumbsnap.com/i/a5LBlgLP.jpg

[tinchote]

Does cycling have a specific rule which clearly states that orders team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited?

I repeat - and I'm a little tired of repeating it - there is certainly a debate to be had whether the rule needs clarifying or abolishing; there are many posts here sympathetic to the idea that team orders are part and parcel of the sport. But the point remains that Ferrari signed up for the 2010 season knowing full well such orders were prohibited, then chose to break the rules.

So did McLaren in 2008, but your argument is that because it was not blatant (and because it is the team you like, of course) then it's not so important.

You need to make up your mind: either "rules are rules" or either it's a matter of interpretation. If it is the second, then you should temper your opinions a little.

[markabilly]

http://thumbsnap.com/i/a5LBlgLP.jpg
of course, she's donKey Jote's old lady and wants you..... she heard you got a quarter and that you were real fast, much faster than I will ever hope to be...........something like .6 of a second, correct?

[Dave B]

So did McLaren in 2008, but your argument is that because it was not blatant (and because it is the team you like, of course) then it's not so important.

You need to make up your mind: either "rules are rules" or either it's a matter of interpretation. If it is the second, then you should temper your opinions a little.
I've explained about six times on various threads why there's no comparison with the two situations, and I really cannot be bothered explaining it again. Use the search facility if you care, but do not ever tell me to temper my opinion.

[donKey jote]

of course, she's donKey Jote's old lady
eh? I didn't reckognise her... I thought yer sister wasn't allowed out without her paper bag anyway. :confused:

[donKey jote]

I've explained about six times on various threads why there's no comparison with the two situations, and I really cannot be bothered explaining it again. Use the search facility if you care, but do not ever tell me to temper my opinion.
tamper your onions a little instead then? :erm:

[Daika]

I don't get it when people say that Alonso was faster than Massa. Why do those people exclude something significant as overtaking? Massa did it, at the start overtaking Alonso.

[Bradley]

Why do those people exclude something significant as overtaking? Massa did it, at the start overtaking Alonso.

And I think the chance is big that he will do it again tomorrow.

- Massa = fast starter
- Alonso = bad starter and already one jumpstart in 2010

The pair to look tomorrow at 1400CET ;)

[ioan]

I don't get it when people say that Alonso was faster than Massa. Why do those people exclude something significant as overtaking? Massa did it, at the start overtaking Alonso.

They should go watch rallying.

[tinchote]

I've explained about six times on various threads why there's no comparison with the two situations, and I really cannot be bothered explaining it again. Use the search facility if you care, but do not ever tell me to temper my opinion.

I'm just mentioning that you both said "rules are rules" and that "it depends on how it's done". Weird standards.

[Triumph]

This whole episode didn't look good, but if it was my favourite driver (Lewis) gaining an advantage from all this then I wouldn't be complaining. For that reason I won't be complaining about Fernando gaining an advantage.

[wedge]

http://sniffpetrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/AlonsoMassa.jpg

[wedge]

I've explained about six times on various threads why there's no comparison with the two situations, and I really cannot be bothered explaining it again

If Heikki was said to be impeding Hamilton's progress in 2008 then the same could be argued for last week in that Massa was backing Alonso into Vettel compromising Ferrari's race for a 1-2 finish which even Adam Cooper, who didn't advocate Ferrari's team orders, thinks holds substantial weight even if Ferrari did eventually finish 1-2:


http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/cooper-ferrari-was-wrong-in-german-grand-prix//P2/

One interesting aspect to the affair is that neither Alonso nor Stefano Domenicali majored on the fact that Sebastian Vettel was not far behind – and that Massa in effect should have either gotten a move on or let Fernando past – by way of justification. It’ll be interesting if they try to use that now.

[Roamy]

see back in the days of TAD when elect boxes were not regulated the pit would just reduce your rpms and they hence no team orders.

[Dave B]

I'm just mentioning that you both said "rules are rules" and that "it depends on how it's done". Weird standards.
Not at all, dear chap, not at all.

Sigh. Let's go through it again, really simply.

Ferrari swapped their drivers who were running first and second. They literally could not do better, and whichever way you slice it 25+18 = 18+25.

The overwhelming majority of viewers were in no doubt that they had heard a clear and unambiguous team order over the radio, an opinion which was lent weight by Smedley's words on the slowing down lap, and then as if further proof was needed along comes Luca di Montezemolo blowing the gaffe wide open by saying "that's how it's always been done".

If Ferrari want to say "it's for the good of the team" then fair enough - I actually have some sympathy with that - but they can't in the same breath say that Massa isn't a #2 driver. Both statements can't be true.

McLaren in 2008 then. Because of a cock-up with the pitstops, Hamilton was being held up by his team mate and denied the chance of chasing down faster cars up front. Heikki let him past, and there was no doubt whatsoever that he was correct to do so as Lewis went on to win, while the Finn only had the pace for 5th. It was obvious to a blind monkey at the back that Hamilton was faster than Heikki.

So, the differences between 2008 and 2010 are as follows. There was no call over the radio to McLaren, there was to Ferrari. McLaren benefited as their driver went on to win, Ferrari already had 1st place and literally could not improve. No other team complained at the time about Heikki's move. Heikki appears to have acted independently, whereas everybody heard Smedley on the radio to Massa. The stewards did not investigate McLaren, presumably because they didn't feel there was a case to answer, and because they didn't feel it was a team order.

Please confirm you understand the above :p

Edit: the notion (above) that Ferrari's 1-2 was under threat from Vettel holds little water, as Vettel only began to close up on Massa once the demotivated Brazillian put in a series of mediocre laps. Until the team order, Ferrari owned that race. And that's what makes it worse.

[Valve Bounce]

What I interpreted it as: let the guy come through without ramming him like Vettel did in Turkey.

[wedge]

There was no call over the radio to McLaren, there was to Ferrari. McLaren benefited as their driver went on to win, Ferrari already had 1st place and literally could not improve. No other team complained at the time about Heikki's move. Heikki appears to have acted independently, whereas everybody heard Smedley on the radio to Massa. The stewards did not investigate McLaren, presumably because they didn't feel there was a case to answer, and because they didn't feel it was a team order.

There was a radio call but not aired publicly. McLaren and along with Ferrari didn't like their radios being aired public. Heikki was told Lewis was quicker.



Edit: the notion (above) that Ferrari's 1-2 was under threat from Vettel holds little water, as Vettel only began to close up on Massa once the demotivated Brazillian put in a series of mediocre laps. Until the team order, Ferrari owned that race. And that's what makes it worse.

The radio call was a delayed transmission, originally about 20 laps previously from the TV transmission when Massa was backing Alonso into Vettel at the beginning of the second stint.

[Daika]

Idiots, the hearing to decide the fate of Ferrari is on september the 8th. Sure no rush, why not wait till the end of the season? Why can't they gather now? a penalty after 2 months isn't good PR. if there is any, probably not...

[rohanweb]

Ferrari cleverly sent in Jean todt to head FIA..so what do you think/ ? rules are for all teams and not ferrari, they are above the rules, anyone say a word against their illegalities will face angry outbursts from chief luca di marshmallows.. so 65K penalty probbaly cost of their front tyres for ferrari..nothing going to hurt them, sickning team orders still be going on and they dont care of they win championship by illegalities..the tifosi mentality is win at all costs.

[Big Ben]

Ferrari cleverly sent in Jean todt to head FIA..so what do you think/ ? rules are for all teams and not ferrari, they are above the rules, anyone say a word against their illegalities will face angry outbursts from chief luca di marshmallows.. so 65K penalty probbaly cost of their front tyres for ferrari..nothing going to hurt them, sickning team orders still be going on and they dont care of they win championship by illegalities..the tifosi mentality is win at all costs.

And how clever are they to cover it up by penalizing them over and over again. And now changing the test loads in an attempt to avoid their wings from passing the tests. No one would suspect a thing :laugh:

The Ferrari International Assistance has closed its business. It shows just how out of depth are you... just keep singing the same song no matter what

[CNR]

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6292431/FIA-summon-Ferrari-for-hearing



The stewards declared Ferrari in breach of article 39.1 of the FIA 2010 sporting regulations that states 'team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.'
They were also charged with a breach of article 151c of the FIA International Sporting Code.
That relates to 'any fraudulent conduct, or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally'.

[wedge]

More fuel to the fire:


http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-new-evidence-supports-ferrari-team-order-charge/

But new radio evidence would seem to reinforce suspicions that the "is faster than you" language was in fact a pre-arranged code that Massa understood as a direct order to pull over.

F1's official website has published a video edit of the German race that depicts Smedley relay a conventional message to Massa about Spaniard Alonso's superior pace.

"You need to pick up the pace, because Fernando is faster," the British engineer is heard to tell Massa.

And another message to Massa during their genuine on-track battle was: "Pretty close here. He's (Alonso) gonna go (through); you're going to have to defend."

It has also been suspected that Alonso requested the team order, after he said "this is ridiculous" while trying to conventionally overtake his teammate.

And he is heard to say during the official video edit: "I am much faster than Felipe."

His engineer Andrea Stella replied: "We got your message, we got your message."

[Hondo]

Not only do I approve of team orders but if I ran a team I would send team orders encoded in nonsense sentences like the BBC used in WW II. Each race, the code would change. I would even use that old WW II favorite "John has a long moustache".

To make things even more amusing, over the course of a race I would broadcast a lot of sentences that meant nothing to anybody just to keep other teams, the media, and the FIA all ramped up and excited.

The cow jumped over the moon...Red is black...The pantry is full...Our feet are dry...

Transmissions to and from the driver would be acknowledged only with "copy that."

What a hoot!

[Retro Formula 1]

Not only do I approve of team orders but if I ran a team I would send team orders encoded in nonsense sentences like the BBC used in WW II. Each race, the code would change. I would even use that old WW II favorite "John has a long moustache".

To make things even more amusing, over the course of a race I would broadcast a lot of sentences that meant nothing to anybody just to keep other teams, the media, and the FIA all ramped up and excited.

The cow jumped over the moon...Red is black...The pantry is full...Our feet are dry...

Transmissions to and from the driver would be acknowledged only with "copy that."

What a hoot!

Love it :laugh:

"Squadron leader to Sh!tehawk.... DIVE, DIVE"

Is now code for "Box next lap"

and

"Baby, can you hear me, grin and bear it Baby, i t ' s . K Y . j e l l y . t i m e . a g a i n. Can you confirm you've applied it and have assumed the position"

Is code for nothing whatsoever apparently ;)

[pallone col bracciale]

More fuel to the fire:

But still no definitive proof, it is just radio transmissions confirming information.

[DexDexter]

But still no definitive proof, it is just radio transmissions confirming information.

There is never going to be definitive proof for you.

[Valve Bounce]

Love it :laugh:

"Squadron leader to Sh!tehawk.... DIVE, DIVE"

Is now code for "Box next lap"

and

"Baby, can you hear me, grin and bear it Baby, i t ' s . K Y . j e l l y . t i m e . a g a i n. Can you confirm you've applied it and have assumed the position"

Is code for nothing whatsoever apparently ;)

Allo! Allo! please listen carefully because I will only repeat this once. "Don't cross the chickens before you come to your bridges"

[pallone col bracciale]

There is never going to be definitive proof for you.

And where is your proof?

[pallone col bracciale]

Well if an admission from Ferrari's president, and the team taking the 'team orders is our right' stance is not enough for you, then you are on your own on that one. You must be the only person on the planet who does not think it was team orders, and the fact you don't even believe your favourite team when they admit it, is frankly confusing to say the least. :eek:

Nobody has admitted to anything.

You need to read more carefully, I think. Luca did not say that Ferrari had used team-orders in Germany....as a matter of fact he did not use the phrase at all.

"I simply reaffirm what I have always maintained, which is that our drivers are very well aware, and it is something they have to stick to, that if one races for Ferrari, then the interests of the team come before those of the individual.
"In any case, these things have happened since the days of Nuvolari and I experienced it myself when I was Sporting Director, in the days of Niki Lauda and not just then."
He added: "Therefore enough of this hypocrisy, even if I can well believe that some people might well have liked to see our two drivers eliminate one another, but that is definitely not the case for me or indeed for our fans."

"I am very happy for all our fans who finally, yesterday, saw two Ferraris lead from start to finish as they dominated the race," he explained.
"The result is down to the efforts of all our people, who never give up. Now we have to continue working like this, to improve the car so that is competitive at all the circuits we will encounter.
"Alonso and Massa also did very well, giving their all throughout the weekend."


No admission anywhere.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85587


I am nice, I even provide for you an English site as a link so no need to learn my language.


So, per favore, please supply evidence of proof that Ferrari have admitted to using team-orders at Hockenheim and that Luca has said so.

Proof, per favore.

Without this, what you say is not true.

[Big Ben]

So they have team orders. Good for them! All these complaints are nothing but sour grapes from people who can´t stand to see this team taking the maximum result from one race.

[Big Ben]

I think I'll maintain my view with the majority of people and take Luca's carefully worded statement for what it is.

Ferrari's drivers are well aware that the team comes first before that of the individual on the basis that the driver with the most points is allowed through to collect maximum points. Or in other words, "Team Orders". Even if we did not have the blatantly obvious radio messages, we all know it was discussed in their drivers briefing. We know full well Alonso did not overtake Massa through pure pace.

These 'things' have happened since the days of Nuvolari. What do you think he means by 'these things'? Do you think he might mean teammates letting each other through for the good of the team like in the first statement? Or in other words "Team Orders".

Thanks for the quote. :)

I think an order contains the actual command. Something like this: Massa baby your are slow. Do you understand me? No, I don't. Massa baby, Alonso is right in your butt. You need to let him pass. Ah, ok then. Got it.

Now if you think their BS is of an inferior quality then the McLaren´s... well that a different story :p .

[Tazio]

So they have team orders. Good for them! All these complaints are nothing but sour grapes from people who can´t stand to see this team taking the maximum result from one race.
Bingo!

[wmcot]

So they have team orders. Good for them! All these complaints are nothing but sour grapes from people who can´t stand to see this team taking the maximum result from one race.

Totally agree! Too bad none of the other teams have team orders! ;)

[Mia 01]

Totally agree! Too bad none of the other teams have team orders! ;)

If they would, will the so called No2 driver obey? I referring to the to teams, perhaps exept renualt.

[Tazio]

If they would, will the so called No2 driver obey? I referring to the to teams, perhaps exept renualt. At this stage in the season without a doubt!

[pallone col bracciale]

Or in other words "Team Orders".


Those are your words, not anyone from Ferrari.



Thanks for the quote. :)

You are welcome, although why you thank me for showing that you are not being truthful, I do not know.

Grazie for proving that you have no proof, just made-up allegations you want to believe.

That is not proof.

[ArrowsFA1]

So they have team orders. Good for them!
Not the view of the FIA rulebook.

All these complaints are nothing but sour grapes from people who can´t stand to see this team taking the maximum result from one race.
Ferrari the team were already taking the maximum result with Massa leading and Alonso second. They wanted to maximise the WDC chances of one of their drivers and engineered this through the use of, according to the FIA stewards, team orders which are prohibited according to article 39.1 of the sporting regulations.

[Tazio]

Not the view of the FIA rulebook.

Ferrari the team were already taking the maximum result with Massa leading and Alonso second. They wanted to maximise the WDC chances of one of their drivers and engineered this through the use of, according to the FIA stewards, team orders which are prohibited according to article 39.1 of the sporting regulations.I think he was referring to both championships, but you know that. eu makes a good point. If the shoe was on the other foot I think we would hear the others singing Ferrari's song. Ferrari has been penalized. However I suspect further sanction is coming. As is usually the case in this situation I suspect the WSRC to make its decision based partly on the results of Spa.
F1 you have to love it. ;)

[wedge]

Not the view of the FIA rulebook.

Ferrari the team were already taking the maximum result with Massa leading and Alonso second. They wanted to maximise the WDC chances of one of their drivers and engineered this through the use of, according to the FIA stewards, team orders which are prohibited according to article 39.1 of the sporting regulations.

1. Massa's pace was compromising.

2. They have also been charged with Article 151c of the 2010 international sporting code, which is an utter joke: "any act prejudicial to the interests of competition or the interests of motorsport generally"

Because

A) Alonso will make the WDC a 5-way fight instead of RBR vs McLaren and therefore how can that be prejudicial to the interests of competition?

B) Team orders has been part of motorsport as a whole so how can that be against the interests of motorsport generally?

[Retro Formula 1]

I think he was referring to both championships, but you know that. eu makes a good point. If the shoe was on the other foot I think we would hear the others singing Ferrari's song. Ferrari has been penalized. However I suspect further sanction is coming. As is usually the case in this situation I suspect the WSRC to make its decision based partly on the results of Spa.
F1 you have to love it. ;)

I do hope Ferrari don't get penalised further but I think the WMSC may feel the need to act. It was such a crass move that they almost have to be seen to do something.

We all know the rules are bloody stupid and all teams employ team orders in a subtle way. Why oh why did Ferrari make it so clumsy? The viewing public want to see a race where the most deserving pilot wins, not someone being gifted a win he has no right to. That's the problem.

However silly the rules are, they are still the rules until they are changed and I fear there may be more sanctions.

[Tazio]

I do hope Ferrari don't get penalised further but I think the WMSC may feel the need to act. It was such a crass move that they almost have to be seen to do something.

We all know the rules are bloody stupid and all teams employ team orders in a subtle way. Why oh why did Ferrari make it so clumsy? The viewing public want to see a race where the most deserving pilot wins, not someone being gifted a win he has no right to. That's the problem.

However silly the rules are, they are still the rules until they are changed and I fear there may be more sanctions.But here is the part of the equation that throws a :monkeedan wrench into the whole shooting match. As sad as it is for me to admit, F1 the business is what is at the bottom of this decision. So you say that the sanctions will come because the "enthusiasts" demand a fair outcome. I wonder how many "think tanks" right now are trying to decide what the best solution for bottom line economics is. Ferrari worldwide are probably the biggest draw by a large margin. So do you go for integrity or the almighty buck?
Remember this is F1 and Bernie.
Just something to ponder.

[Retro Formula 1]

There is no right answer. Lots of wrong ones but bugger all correct options.

Allow eam orders and fans think the series is fixed. People turn off.

Ban team orders and everyone still does it until someone does something silly. People turn off.

Seems that if you have 2 dogs in a team, you is gonna have team orders.

[Big Ben]

Not the view of the FIA rulebook.

Ferrari the team were already taking the maximum result with Massa leading and Alonso second. They wanted to maximise the WDC chances of one of their drivers and engineered this through the use of, according to the FIA stewards, team orders which are prohibited according to article 39.1 of the sporting regulations.

And your point is that teams only care for the wcc because that´s the one for them? Come on..

[Big Ben]

I think we are all over the fact that it was team orders, and sour grapes doesn't really come into it for me because it was going to be a Ferrari win anyway, team orders or not. :)


:eek:

wrong. no one cares who wins the wcc. It´s the wdc the one that matters. The fact that Ferrari got the maximum result for both championships is really irritating.

[ioan]

1. Massa's pace was compromising.

To Alonso maybe.
Vettel never managed to catch Felipe once they were in direct competition for 2nd place.
But hey, don't let the facts stand in your own reality's way.



A) Alonso will make the WDC a 5-way fight instead of RBR vs McLaren and therefore how can that be prejudicial to the interests of competition?

Is an illegal rigged competition still a competition?
I guess it depends on the opinion holder's POV and his/her ethical ground.

[ioan]

wrong. no one cares who wins the wcc. It´s the wdc the one that matters. The fact that Ferrari got the maximum result for both championships is really irritating.

Load of BS.
The money is paid by FOM in function of the constructors championship standings, most teams only care about the WCC.

[jas123f1]

There is no right answer. Lots of wrong ones but bugger all correct options.

Allow eam orders and fans think the series is fixed. People turn off.

Ban team orders and everyone still does it until someone does something silly. People turn off.

Seems that if you have 2 dogs in a team, you is gonna have team orders.

Yes - it's not easy. But if both drivers get the WDC title then team orders are not needed..

E.g. Rubens has a big part in Schumachers carrier, without all team orders would Schumi never have so many titles.

[Saint Devote]

wrong. no one cares who wins the wcc. It´s the wdc the one that matters. The fact that Ferrari got the maximum result for both championships is really irritating.

Dietrich Mateschitz openly stated last year when he attacked Renault that it had cost RBR the Constructirs title and that THAT title is the most iimportant to him.

Do you suppose that Mclaren hired Button to win the WDC because perhaps Lewis was not up to it? Of course not.

Whitmarsh stated that they hired Jenson because his view is that both drivers have different strengths that will show when the others' weakness does - and it has been that way - in order for Mclaren to win the Constructors title.

Ron Dennis openly has a preference for the Constructors.

Ferrari cat say that Alonso won the title in a Ferrari, but if they win the Constructors, then FERRARI is the champion. Period.

And then there is the little matter of money that is allocated depending upon how the teams end in the title table too.

Do not dismiss the importance of this title that is only eight years younger than the WDC to all the people in formula 1.

Unlike any other series, f1 is a constructors championship that sees the mst incrediblly brilliant people using the most advanced technology to the point of invention.

To your last point - it is fantastic when Ferrari do well. It is great for motor racing. I am not a tifosi but when it looks like a Ferrari is going to win, the sight of those most beautiful throughbred racing cars always makes me emotional.

And when a Ferrari is not victorius at the Monza Park Autodromo then there is always something wrong with the world :D

[Tazio]

Dietrich Mateschitz openly stated last year when he attacked Renault that it had cost RBR the Constructirs title and that THAT title is the most iimportant to him.

Do you suppose that Mclaren hired Button to win the WDC because perhaps Lewis was not up to it? Of course not.

Whitmarsh stated that they hired Jenson because his view is that both drivers have different strengths that will show when the others' weakness does - and it has been that way - in order for Mclaren to win the Constructors title.

Ron Dennis openly has a preference for the Constructors.

Ferrari cat say that Alonso won the title in a Ferrari, but if they win the Constructors, then FERRARI is the champion. Period.

And then there is the little matter of money that is allocated depending upon how the teams end in the title table too.

Do not dismiss the importance of this title that is only eight years younger than the WDC to all the people in formula 1.

Unlike any other series, f1 is a constructors championship that sees the mst incrediblly brilliant people using the most advanced technology to the point of invention.

To your last point - it is fantastic when Ferrari do well. It is great for motor racing. I am not a tifosi but when it looks like a Ferrari is going to win, the sight of those most beautiful throughbred racing cars always makes me emotional.

And when a Ferrari is not victorius at the Monza Park Autodromo then there is always something wrong with the world :D This is not only an eloquent narrative; it is true in its entirety IMO. Those that do not think the WCC is the primary objective of F1 teams just have not been:
A) Following it long enough, or
A) Are with good reason because of their life experience (age) caught up in the current culture of idol worship and all the tabloid trappings that benefit from it. It is easy to lose sight of how many great team players there have been in distinctly team sports. I applaud F1 for rewarding, and considering the WCC
as the ultimate prize at least financially.
But this is rightly due.
I also believe times have changed and all enthusiasts are probably more inclined to pull for a pilot more than a team. I know I do, and judging by what I read on this forum so does everyone else old-timer or youngster.
I don't hold out much hope for a Ferrari victory at Monza this season, but I have enough of them recorded to ease the disappointment if they don't. It's something about that mass of humanity crowding around the podium that is the stuff dreams are made of! :s ailor:

[Valve Bounce]

It is possible that when a racesorder is manipulated, these guys might have something to say. : http://www.oddschecker.com/motor-sport/formula-one/drivers-championship

[CNR]

watch the episode of top gear with rubens barrichello
he makes it sound like they were going to fire him there and then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFMWJMZfNig

[pallone col bracciale]

Quite true. I'm aware team orders are used at Mclaren, but they are a little more savvy in using them. :)

So, for you, being better liars is more acceptable?

What a disgusting attitude!

[Valve Bounce]

So, for you, being better liars is more acceptable?

What a disgusting attitude!

Surely you are not suggesting thet Ferrari are lousy liars. :eek:

[pallone col bracciale]

watch the episode of top gear with rubens barrichello
he makes it sound like they were going to fire him there and then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFMWJMZfNig

There is nothing wrong with this.

If you or I were to disobey an order from the boss, we should expect to be no longer employed.

Of course, there are times when to disobey is the correct thing to do, even if employment termination is the result. That is a matter for the conscience.

But Mr Barrichello did not disobey, he chose to keep his job, so his conscience cannot have been too troubled by the order.

[pallone col bracciale]

Surely you are not suggesting thet Ferrari are lousy liars. :eek:

Please read more carefully.

[Retro Formula 1]

There is nothing wrong with this.

If you or I were to disobey an order from the boss, we should expect to be no longer employed.

Of course, there are times when to disobey is the correct thing to do, even if employment termination is the result. That is a matter for the conscience.

But Mr Barrichello did not disobey, he chose to keep his job, so his conscience cannot have been too troubled by the order.

Well, at least you have accepted that team orders were employed now.

I have a question for you Mr B. Why did Ferrari make it so obvious in your opinion that Rubens was to move over? Lets leave the inflammatory bits out about better liars etc and look at the mess they dropped themselves in.

As a Ferrari fan, didn't you cringe? We all accept (I hope) that team orders play some part in the sport to a greater or lesser degree. Some teams will have a blatant #1 and #2 driver, some will try to favour a driver and some will let their drivers duke it out as long as they don't take each other off. But, I believe they all use team orders to some degree. Do you concur?

Personally, I think Ferrari scored a bit of an own goal. The team tried to get Alonso in the lead before this and Rob may have been a bit peeved at having to "order" his driver out of the way. Perhaps he was making a point to the team but didn't realise it would have such implications?

[Valve Bounce]

Please read more carefully.

I did; and you were objecting that it was acceptable that McLaren were better liars. Correct??

[pallone col bracciale]

Well, at least you have accepted that team orders were employed now.

I have never said they were not in Austria. You must have misunderstood.



I have a question for you Mr B. Why did Ferrari make it so obvious in your opinion that Rubens was to move over?


Why shouldn't they? It was not illegal, so nothing to hide.



As a Ferrari fan, didn't you cringe?

No, as I have been watching and understanding Formula One long enough to know that team-orders were part of racing.

The aim of Ferrari, as I expect with every team, is to win championships as effieciently as possible.

That is what they were doing in Austria, so no reason to cringe.

[pallone col bracciale]

I did; and you were objecting that it was acceptable that McLaren were better liars. Correct??

No. It was not my assertion that Mclaren were better liars. That was the assertion of Mr Henners88.

I was objecting that, in his opinion, being a better liar was more acceptable.

I find that attitude very strange. Certainly, it is not something to be pleased about.

[pallone col bracciale]

But, I believe they all use team orders to some degree. Do you concur?

No, as an order is an instruction. It has to be proven that a driver was given an order.

Until then, with definitive proof that an order was given, then a team cannot be said to have given an order.

Nowhere at Hockenheim did you hear a direct instruction given. Ergo, no team order.

A driver can understand that the team is more important than the individual without being ordered that it is so.

An expectation by the team of a certain attitude and a certain behaviour is not the same as an instruction to do something.

It is important to remember this as a legal argument, as it will be decided, like most things in Formula One, by lawyers and not by self-appointed fans spokesmen such as Mr Henners88.

[Valve Bounce]

No, as an order is an instruction. It has to be proven that a driver was given an order.

Until then, with definitive proof that an order was given, then a team cannot be said to have given an order.

Nowhere at Hockenheim did you hear a direct instruction given. Ergo, no team order.

A driver can understand that the team is more important than the individual without being ordered that it is so.

An expectation by the team of a certain attitude and a certain behaviour is not the same as an instruction to do something.

It is important to remember this as a legal argument, as it will be decided, like most things in Formula One, by lawyers and not by self-appointed fans spokesmen such as Mr Henners88.

You are correct. Nowhere did Ferrari directly order Massa to allow Alonso to pass. We will have to await the WMSC hearing to see whether Ferrari has anything to answer for. However, Massa's chief engineer will be asked to explain why he repeatedly told Massa that Alonso, who was behind him, was faster; and then asking Massa if he understood. His explanation will be most interesting.

[Retro Formula 1]

I have never said they were not in Austria. You must have misunderstood.

I think I must have done. I don't recall you ever mentioning Austria specifically. I was under the assumption we were talking about the current situation.

Oh well, I was hoping we could open the conversation up a little but it seems we are stuck in a hole still.

[wedge]

To Alonso maybe.
Vettel never managed to catch Felipe once they were in direct competition for 2nd place.
But hey, don't let the facts stand in your own reality's way.

You cover your bases. Who would've known Massa would hold off Vettel? (Perhaps Vettel settled for third or can Vettel overtake when it counts most?)


Load of BS.
The money is paid by FOM in function of the constructors championship standings, most teams only care about the WCC.

LOL

Most teams care about the WCC because so they can better themselves for WDC.

When you're one of the apex teams, winning races, WDC is the goal.

Were Ferrari happy winning the WCC in 1999 as consolation prize? Not as happy at winning the WDC, that's for damn sure.

[Bagwan]

The only reason you can say that Ferrari screwed up here is that they did not have complete control over all thier employees .

Alonso was faster at that moment , and in fact , after Felipe had already received two transmissions about his team-mate being faster , Fernando dropped back and took back the gap easily , to demonstrate the fact .

Ferrari have no employees at Red Bull , so , could not have had any way to tell if Vettle was able to make a late race charge .

The fact that his team had to mention three times that his team-mate was faster shows how fragile Felipe is in his position .
It also shows he's loved at Ferrari , but , with this insolence , the love will not last .

Rubens knew he would no longer be employed by the reds if he didn't move over for Mike in Austria .
And , even Mike knew he had been given a gift , as it was his supposedly making a mockery of pushing Rubens up to the top step that garnered his team the penalty in the end , not the order itself .

But , as here , instead of lauding Rubens in the case , as they should Felipe , for being the dutiful number two , as putting him up the step does , the crowd tore into Michael and Ferrari , for being cruel .
Simply , as in Felipe's case here , Ferrari put the eggs in the basket of the one who can win the title .


Ferrari did not give a team order .
They told the driver that he drives for a team .
That is what they told him right after he signed his name on the contract .

Felipe gets lots of instructions from his team , and lots more from his race engineer .
I can't imagine his contract says that he gets to pick and choose which instructions he will follow .

Now , to be fair , Massa did move over .
But , he did it in such a way that cost his team $100,000.00 and the possibility of more sanction in future .


Had Felipe said " Because my team-mate was much faster , and I didn't want to risk either of our cars , I didn't make it too hard for him . The result for the team were most important , and we didn't know how much more that Sebastian had for the end of the race ." , we might have looked at this as a good team effort , and the best he could achieve that day .

That's an honourable way to take the fact that you're slower and turn it into a positive .

If Felipe was faster in that moment , he might have had something to whine about .
But he wasn't , end of story .
He turned into "Felipe-baby" .

[ArrowsFA1]

It is important to remember that the rules which apply here are those implemented and policed by the FIA. The FIA stated that a breach of Article 39.1, which bans team orders, and 151c, which relates to bringing the sport into disrepute, had been committed and Ferrari were fined $100,000 and referred to the WMSC.

Ferrari are not appealing that outcome.

[Valve Bounce]

You cover your bases. Who would've known Massa would hold off Vettel? (Perhaps Vettel settled for third or can Vettel overtake when it counts most?)
:D
.

Or maybe Smedley forgot to tell Massa that Vettel was behind him and Vettel was faster. :p : :D :rotflmao:

[Big Ben]

Load of BS.
The money is paid by FOM in function of the constructors championship standings, most teams only care about the WCC.

Thanks for the kind words... always a gentleman

[Big Ben]

Were Ferrari happy winning the WCC in 1999 as consolation prize? Not as happy at winning the WDC, that's for damn sure.

I'm pretty sure Ioan was delighted at the end of that season :laugh:

[pallone col bracciale]

It is important to remember that the rules which apply here are those implemented and policed by the FIA. The FIA stated that a breach of Article 39.1, which bans team orders, and 151c, which relates to bringing the sport into disrepute, had been committed and Ferrari were fined $100,000 and referred to the WMSC.

Ferrari are not appealing that outcome.

Yes they are, but not to the stewards.

"As for the Stewards' decision, given after the race, in the interests of the sport, we have decided not to go through a procedure of appealing against it, confident that the World Council will know how to evaluate the overall facts correctly,"

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/24408.html

You do not have to appeal to the stewards when the matter is referred to the WMSC, as the WMSC has the power to overturn a stewards decision.

They are going to the WMSC confident that the decision will be overturned, so no need to appeal at a lower level.

[ArrowsFA1]

You do not have to appeal to the stewards when the matter is referred to the WMSC, as the WMSC has the power to overturn a stewards decision.
It may have the power to do so but it's been suggested (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85552) that that the hearing is "is to consider whether Ferrari should face further sanctions for the team orders controversy."

Despite Ferrari's confidence, the wording of the FIA statement ("Fine $100,000. The case will also be referred to the FIA World Motorsport Council for further consideration.") suggests to me that anything coming out of the WMSC hearing will be in addition to the fine.

But, time will tell.

[Retro Formula 1]

Yes they are, but not to the stewards.

"As for the Stewards' decision, given after the race, in the interests of the sport, we have decided not to go through a procedure of appealing against it, confident that the World Council will know how to evaluate the overall facts correctly,"

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/24408.html

You do not have to appeal to the stewards when the matter is referred to the WMSC, as the WMSC has the power to overturn a stewards decision.

They are going to the WMSC confident that the decision will be overturned, so no need to appeal at a lower level.

I'm sorry but playing Devils Advocate, where do Ferrari mention that they expect the decision to be overturned?

They have said they are confident that the WMSC will be able to evaluate the facts correctly but let us not forget that the Stewards referred this case, not Ferrari.

I think it very unlikely the WMSC will overturn the decision and doubt Ferrari even offer a defense. However, they may find that no further punishment is needed which would confirm the original judgement.

At least a line can be drawn under the issue and Ferrari fans accept the judgement that Ferrari themselves are confident in.

[pallone col bracciale]

If you are naive enough to think that team orders no longer exist and this incident with Ferrari is a simple misunderstanding, then you are welcome to your view, but please don't suggest my attitude is disgusting, because it insults peoples intelligence.

Please do not insult peoples intelligence yourself by claiming things you cannot prove.

Please do not insult peoples intelligence by claiming that the Ferrari President made an admission of using Team Orders when he did not.

It is not right and it is not true that he did.

[Saint Devote]

Can you prove it was not team orders? The flipside of this arguement is just as valid.

Nobody at Ferrari mentioned team orders. Trying to prove something that did not happen is ridiculous.

Alonso was quicker and Massa should have moved over without a song and dance - well before "the incident". The Ferrari team was concerned that there would be a collision and this HAS occurred between these drivers this season.

Those like yourself that object to rough defense tactics such as used by Schumi now think that Alonso and Massa ought to have fought it out? This is a contradiction.

Those who are against Schumi should be agreeable that when it is a team the slower driver in front must be a perfrct gentleman and allow the quicker driver through.

Why? Because based on the history, Silverstone being just one example from this season, the odds that Alonso and Massa would collide are pretty high.

[DexDexter]

Please do not insult peoples intelligence yourself by claiming things you cannot prove.

Please do not insult peoples intelligence by claiming that the Ferrari President made an admission of using Team Orders when he did not.

It is not right and it is not true that he did.

This is not an Italian court. There were team orders, other teams have had those in the past and will have in the future.

[ArrowsFA1]

Nowhere at Hockenheim did you hear a direct instruction given...
That's true. Rob did not say "this is a team order, let Fernando through". You're quite correct.

...Ergo, no team order.
Article 39.1 does not define in what form a "team order" must be given to be in breach of the rules; all it says is "team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited." The stewards clearly interpreted the way the "information" was given to Felipe, and the resulting switch in positions between team-mates, as a team order.

Can you prove it was not team orders? The flipside of this arguement is just as valid.
This so reminds me of Tony Hancok's "Twelve Angry Men" :laugh:

E6MsXBGHolQ


"Take the case of Doubting Thomas, who was sent to Coventry for looking through a keyhole at Lady Godiva. Can anybody prove he was looking at her? Can anybody prove it was he who shouted out: "get your hair cut"? Of course not, this is sheer supposition! Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain? Brave Hungarian peasant girl who forced King John to sign the pledge at Runnymede and close the boozers at half past ten! Is all this to be forgotten?"

[Valve Bounce]

Those who are against Schumi should be agreeable that when it is a team the slower driver in front must be a perfect gentleman and allow the quicker driver through.

.

I fully agree with this attitude, and the Saint aught to be congratulated for his saintly reasoning, God bless him. Massa should have moved over in a gentlemanly fashion to allow Vettel to pass.

[Bagwan]

The outcome of the meeting could be that Ferrari is further sanctioned .

But , the result of sanctioning would put the lunacy of these rules to the forefront .
There is a clear understanding that team orders exist .
There is a rule that bans them .

The words that came from Smedley were carefully phrased to omit any actual order , as per the requirement to mask any instruction that might be perceived as such , but due to "the way" it was delivered , it was seen as an order .

Ok , then , let's get on with picking stewards for the upcoming races .
We'll need , now , to include the requirement to be experts in linguistics , so that none of those guys intimates something illegal was going on by sliding that inflection around , willy-nilly .
And , let's not forget that a lot of those guys don't have english as a first language , so we'll need someone fluent with all the grid talkers .


The rule banning team orders is an insult to our collective intelligence .

We know they exist .
The FIA knows they exist .
The teams know they exist .

It is currently down to "the way" the order is given .

Smedley and Massa , in the end , may turn out to be heroes , as it may be that this situation is what is needed to bring the issue to the table at the WMSC hearing , to finally end this mess .
The best result from an inquiry would be to have the ban on team orders lifted , and return the pride to the dutiful number two .


Many laud Gilles as one of the best that the sport has ever seen , and never have I ever seen him slagged for being a number two .
Many , in fact , believe that it was Pironi's pass , when he was expected to play that role that triggered Gilles's death , distracted by the betrayal of his friend and team-mate .

[Saint Devote]

Call me old fashioned but I like to see racing. Not every tussle ontrack results in one driver forcing the other either into a wall or onto the grass at high speed and Mclaren showed in Turkey that teammates can battle without unnecessary blocking. There have been instances in races where Button has been faster than Hamilton and vice versa and I am yet to see calls for one to let the other through. I could understand it if a teammate felt obliged to let the other through in the closing stages of the championship where he has no chance of staying in contention, but to see these kind of tactics at the half way stage is disappointing IMO.

The only contradiction here my friend is from your own post. First you say the idea of team orders is ridiculous, and then you say they were concerned there would be a collision between the two? So what was the outcome of this concern, suggesting to Felipe that Fernando was quicker, nudge, nudge, wink, wink?? They were found provisionally guilty of using team orders and fined $100,000. The hearing next month will decide if further action is needed. Whatever the outcome it will surely be interesting reading on here thats for sure. If the decision is overturned (doubtful) there will be gloating and the confidence in the FIA will be restored from certain fans, and if the points are docked there will be calls that its a conspiracy and the world is against Ferrari. Lets wait and see and in the mean time, I think I'll agree to disagree on this one. ;)

I think we all like racing - but the current drivers at Ferrari and Red Bull are not Jenson and Lewis and they do not have the very positive influence of someone like Martin Whitmarsh.

Definitely, anyone knowing Jense's attitude in racing realizes that while he is an aggressive driver he always considers the car first and THINKS. There were examples last season that resulted in criticism - misguided.

Someone like Jense is a positive influence on Hamilton who is much less experenced and takes more risks.

In the case of Ferrari and Red Bull I think team orders are essential because at least one driver in the team has shown an inability to respect his teammate.

And even at Mclaren if you recall after I think Turkey [?] when Lewis and Jense passed each other - it was a VERY new experience for Lewis. He is still getting used to the idea that his teammate is not someone that will not be totally fair and clean.

I predict that Jense and Lewis will have positive longer term influences on each other compared to the others and that they will become as potent a team as Lauda and Prost at Mclaren.

Whitmarsh has chosen extremely well. They are both capable of supporting each other to second world titles.

[Saint Devote]

The outcome of the meeting could be that Ferrari is further sanctioned .

But , the result of sanctioning would put the lunacy of these rules to the forefront .
There is a clear understanding that team orders exist .
There is a rule that bans them .

The words that came from Smedley were carefully phrased to omit any actual order , as per the requirement to mask any instruction that might be perceived as such , but due to "the way" it was delivered , it was seen as an order .

Ok , then , let's get on with picking stewards for the upcoming races .
We'll need , now , to include the requirement to be experts in linguistics , so that none of those guys intimates something illegal was going on by sliding that inflection around , willy-nilly .
And , let's not forget that a lot of those guys don't have english as a first language , so we'll need someone fluent with all the grid talkers .


The rule banning team orders is an insult to our collective intelligence .

We know they exist .
The FIA knows they exist .
The teams know they exist .

It is currently down to "the way" the order is given .

Smedley and Massa , in the end , may turn out to be heroes , as it may be that this situation is what is needed to bring the issue to the table at the WMSC hearing , to finally end this mess .
The best result from an inquiry would be to have the ban on team orders lifted , and return the pride to the dutiful number two .


Many laud Gilles as one of the best that the sport has ever seen , and never have I ever seen him slagged for being a number two .
Many , in fact , believe that it was Pironi's pass , when he was expected to play that role that triggered Gilles's death , distracted by the betrayal of his friend and team-mate .

To blame Pironi for Gilles death is totally to misuderstand the situation and ridiculous. The problem is that Gilles was killed and it was so soon afterwards for the issue to be cleared.

The issue at Hockenheim is over and anything affecting that result is likely to start the FOTA vs FIA war all over again. Nobody wants that and Bernie as well as Todt will not permit it. It is not worth it and Ferrari were the only ones affected.

[airshifter]

I fully agree with this attitude, and the Saint aught to be congratulated for his saintly reasoning, God bless him. Massa should have moved over in a gentlemanly fashion to allow Vettel to pass.

... and add to that the fact the Schumacher was completely in the right to push Rubens to the concrete wall and you have the two faces of the argument, both stated by the same forum member! :laugh:

Oh yeah, and Heikki should have moved to avoid Webber running into the back of him also. The nerve of some drivers trying to make a pass easy!

[Saint Devote]

... and add to that the fact the Schumacher was completely in the right to push Rubens to the concrete wall and you have the two faces of the argument, both stated by the same forum member! :laugh:

Oh yeah, and Heikki should have moved to avoid Webber running into the back of him also. The nerve of some drivers trying to make a pass easy!

Schumi did not push Rubens to the concrete wall - he defended his position and moved away when Rubens did not back-off.

Rubens then lunged at Schumi who had to move as well - no crying from Schumi - but then Rubens is no Schumacher.

He is an excellent number TWO driver at BEST. Even at Brawn did he finish the championship in second place? No. He was beaten by Vettel.

It was Kovaleinen's moving around that confused Webber and triggered the accident. Kovaleinen is not a consistent driver. He does not hold his line well and it was this weakness commented on by Jenson Button in 2009 that led the Brit to say if Kovaleinen disciplined himself he could actually win races.

Its too late now because Kovaleinen had chances with top teams. If Lotus even gets a podium in the next FIVE years it is going to be amazing.

There really is no point for new teams to enter the sport because they are going to have to get used to being the teams that make up the numbers for YEARS to come.

Just look at Force India - it required a direct partnership with Mclaren for them to achive a podium. That is now gone and together with losing key personnel their prospects for 2011 are not great at all.

Whatever is left of Sutil's reputation - he is rather erratic - will further be tarnished in 2011 along Force India's.

But whichever way, they will survive and even Chandok may yet get that opportunity because Bernie wants an Indian team and an Indian driver to race in the first Indian Grand Prix.

[Valve Bounce]

... and add to that the fact the Schumacher was completely in the right to push Rubens to the concrete wall and you have the two faces of the argument, both stated by the same forum member! :laugh:

Oh yeah, and Heikki should have moved to avoid Webber running into the back of him also. The nerve of some drivers trying to make a pass easy!

Well, that's one of the benefits of being canonised by the Vatican.

[Valve Bounce]

Schumi did not push Rubens to the concrete wall - he defended his position and moved away when Rubens did not back-off.

Rubens then lunged at Schumi who had to move as well - no crying from Schumi - but then Rubens is no Schumacher.

.

Oh yea! I almost forgot - they also are priviledged to re-write history. ;)

[Tazio]

Red Bull and Mclaren are just more exciting to watch from now on because they are fighting each other from within and are not playing support roles. :)

That is extraordinarily speculative and also not to the point. How many times has Fred been right behind Massa this season running 1, 2? The reality is Massa has been behind Fred in most races.
Just for the sake of argument let’s say this trend continues. Let us also assume that FM is still driving his fastest, and on the off chance Ferrari are still in the fight for the titles. What would be so unexciting about Alonso and Massa both putting a beat-down on the runners that they are (as a team trying to overtake)? The likelihood of Ferrari racing excitement suffering because one pilot has a distinct advantage (regardless of how he got it) is absurd.

Plus it will be interesting to see how hard the RB's and McL's fight each other in the races going forward
A very silly, biased and senseless point born out of tabloid frenzy only meant to insight "The Contras", also known as "The Anglo Mafia"!
From this point forward all team strategy will add an extra later of interest to the championship! :s ailor:

[Big Ben]

I'm sure both Mclaren drivers learn alot from each other. I'm pretty sure Jenson is studying Lewis to find out why he is faster, and how Lewis has adapted his driving style over the past two season's to eradicate the myth that he is too hard on his tyres etc. Likewise Lewis is probably finding positives in Jenson's approach. I don't think Turkey was the first time Lewis experienced a teammate who was not totally clean and fair unless we all have very short memories. Lewis had none other than Fernando Alonso as his teammate in his debut season, and one striking incident which comes to mind is Spa 2007 when Alonso pushed him wide just after La Source. Canada of that year also saw a first corner duel between teammates which could have ended in tears.

Anyway, Ferrari IMO have chosen one driver to contest for this years championship and that happens to be their $68m investment. I do agree with one of your points St.D and that is the carefull management at Mclaren is not something Ferrari could adopt and something they have never mastered. They are a one car team in terms of fighting for the WDC, and I am not criticizing that method, its their choice. Red Bull and Mclaren are just more exciting to watch from now on because they are fighting each other from within and are not playing support roles. :)

Button is giving Hamilton a good run for his money :laugh: . What team orders do you need at McLaren when one driver is consistently slower than the other? And the Red Bull internal fight is quite clean and fair with all the "save fuel" BS and the wing story... and the sudden lack of pace of Webber in Hungary... Don't you find it interesting how all of a sudden Webber is HALF A SECOND slower than his team mate?

[Tazio]

Well, that's one of the benefits of being canonised by the Vatican.If I were an Israeli with a screen name that is also the name of a turn at Monaco, I would find such comments very ignorant as Jews do not recognize the sanctity of Catholic historical figures. :bounce: :s mokin:

[Saint Devote]

Button is giving Hamilton a good run for his money :laugh: . What team orders do you need at McLaren when one driver is consistently slower than the other? And the Red Bull internal fight is quite clean and fair with all the "save fuel" BS and the wing story... and the sudden lack of pace of Webber in Hungary... Don't you find it interesting how all of a sudden Webber is HALF A SECOND slower than his team mate?

I suggest you take a long look at consistent RACE TIMES before making such a facile statment regarding Hamilton and Jense.

For such a supposedly quick driver a scant handful of points at this stage of the championship and an equal number of wins is definitely NOT what the Hamilton champions were crowing about prior to the start of the 2010 season.

As a RACE driver - I''ll take Jernse any day and the more uncertain and difficult the conditions - well, Jenson is in his element!

[Saint Devote]

Oh yea! I almost forgot - they also are priviledged to re-write history. ;)

Actually - Schumi MADE history - those such as Pedi-Chanello follow in his wheel tracks.

[Valve Bounce]

Actually - Schumi MADE history - those such as Pedi-Chanello follow in his wheel tracks.

And I am sure you have the holiest of intents in your re-writing of his exploits.

[Big Ben]

I suggest you take a long look at consistent RACE TIMES before making such a facile statment regarding Hamilton and Jense.

For such a supposedly quick driver a scant handful of points at this stage of the championship and an equal number of wins is definitely NOT what the Hamilton champions were crowing about prior to the start of the 2010 season.

As a RACE driver - I''ll take Jernse any day and the more uncertain and difficult the conditions - well, Jenson is in his element!

Ok, don't yell at me. You can have him. Two lucky wins in changing weather and he's the master of difficult conditions. I take a good look at race times and races results and tables and I see a driver that is regularly slower than his team mate.... let's not take a look in thier careers so far

[Big Ben]

When McLaren signed Button I thought McLaren were building a dream team there and I still do. A very young, fast and improving first driver to fight for the wdc and a perfect #2 driver to gather more points for the wcc. What's better than having a #2 driver that doesn't know it? Well, maybe a driver that is happy to be just a sidekick... but those are not so many

[Bagwan]

Actually - Schumi MADE history - those such as Pedi-Chanello follow in his wheel tracks.

Rubens's nick name is actually "Rubinho" ?

I just thought I'd point that out for you .

[pallone col bracciale]

Can you prove it was not team orders? The flipside of this arguement is just as valid.

A ridiculous question, and one which shows a total lack of knowledge.

It is the accuser who must prove the accusation. Ferrari do not need to prove anything. That is a fundamental principle of justice.

There was no instruction, no order, that is all the proof an intelligent mind requires.

"Fernando is faster than you, do you understand this message" contains no instruction, no order.

There is my proof.

For about the thirtieth time, where is your proof? Please, no untruths...pure proof per favore.

[ArrowsFA1]

A ridiculous question...
Given that Ferrari have been found guilty, fined $100,000, and referred to the WMSC for breaching the rule relating to team orders and for bringing the sport into disrepute it is a perfectly reasonable question IMHO. The short answer is no, you cannot prove beyond question that it was not team orders.

That said, it cannot be proven beyond question that it was team orders!

The specific rule relating to team orders does not define either what a team order is, nor what form a team order can take, for it to be seen as breaching Article 39,1. It has been left for the FIA & their stewards to interpret the rule and clearly the stewards interpreted "Fernando. Is. Faster. Than You. Do. You. Understand. This. Message." as being a team order.

[airshifter]

Race times show that Jenson matches Lewis but not consistently. You are right I would have liked to have seen more wins from Lewis so far but its also pleasing when we look at the results and see that in the 9 races they have both finished, Lewis has soundly beaten Jenson 7 times. I also think you are deliberately choosing to ignore the technical advantage one team in particular has over the Mclaren up to this point, don't you think? ;)

If we really want to sound off the hooters and claim Jenson is better in the wet, we can ignore races like Fuji '07, Monaco '08, Silverstone '08, Spa '08 and that just makes your arguement even stronger. Laters. :p


Well after the last race I would say Jenson has much more experience.... running in the middle of the pack. If not for the two car failures for Lewis there would be a lot more points between the two drivers already.

On the up side, if it continues Lewis will already be able to say he has beaten two WDCs when put in the same cars.

[pallone col bracciale]

That said, it cannot be proven beyond question that it was team orders!

Grazie mille.

Aknowledgement of the fundamental flaw in the claim that team orders were used by the Scuderia at Hockenheim.

Grazie mille.

This is an important principle, yes? Otherwise, any accusation without proof is acceptable. Which it is not. I hope you agree that is true?

It would not be fair, an example, for me to say that Mr Dennis and Mr Whitmarsh were complicit with the traitor Stepney in 2007?

I have no proof of this. There is no proof. Maybe some circumstantial, but nothing definitive, so it would be totally unfair to accuse.

The same should be offered to Ferrari, no? It is no difference.

[SGWilko]

Grazie mille.

Aknowledgement of the fundamental flaw in the claim that team orders were used by the Scuderia at Hockenheim.

Grazie mille.

And likewise, I am afraid, there is an equally fundamental flaw in any claim to the contrary. i.e that team orders were not used.

[Saint Devote]

Ok, don't yell at me. You can have him. Two lucky wins in changing weather and he's the master of difficult conditions. I take a good look at race times and races results and tables and I see a driver that is regularly slower than his team mate.... let's not take a look in thier careers so far

I am not yelling at you - I am emphasiziing.

Lucky wins? I think the ENTIRE Mclaren team would be offended by such a comment.

According to Jackie Stewart he thought they were brilliant wins that Jim Clark would have been proud of.

He said this to John Button.

Lewis winning in Turkey thats luck - making tyre decisions and the team supporting them and then winning is ability and thats what Jense did. Of course if you think that Hamilton winning the British Grand Prix in the wet was luck too.....!

A win is a win and driver is the one that puts himself in such a position. But I get it - you are really sore that Hamilton has NOT trounced Jense.

A quicker driver has never been a guarantee of winning. Colin Chapman is great example.

He LOVED quick drivers - but aside from Clark - an unusual type of driver that was a Senna and Prost wrapped into one - Lotus champions came from the Jense side of the garage on balance:

Graham Hill
Emerson Fittipaldi
Mario Andretti.

The only quick driver that won it for Chapman was the superb Jochen Rindt.

[Saint Devote]

Well after the last race I would say Jenson has much more experience.... running in the middle of the pack. If not for the two car failures for Lewis there would be a lot more points between the two drivers already.

On the up side, if it continues Lewis will already be able to say he has beaten two WDCs when put in the same cars.

The two car failures - its funny that Jenson has had NONE - must be something to do with Hamilton's driving. Maybe he forgets that championships are won through scoring points.

The only reason Jenson went out of a race prematurely is because of mechanic error at Monte Carlo and thats a circuit which Jenson enjoys and would have scored points.

And as I recall - Jenson won the first part of the championship at the flyaway races - he led the title chase for FIVE races while Hamilton led the championship for only FOUR. Get yer facts straight before crowing!

[Saint Devote]

When McLaren signed Button I thought McLaren were building a dream team there and I still do. A very young, fast and improving first driver to fight for the wdc and a perfect #2 driver to gather more points for the wcc. What's better than having a #2 driver that doesn't know it? Well, maybe a driver that is happy to be just a sidekick... but those are not so many

Who are you referring to?

The driver that led the championship for FIVE races and has won two grands prix?

Or the other driver that led the championship for FOUR races and has won two grands prix - albeit the one where the drivers he was following crashed into each other?

Anyway - you do Mclaren an injustice and definitely have low regard for the credibility of the team boss I think is one of the two best in pit lane.

Whitmarsh and "Big Bear" Ross are just the BEST!!!

[Valve Bounce]

Rubens's nick name is actually "Rubinho" ?

I just thought I'd point that out for you .

Yeah! let's get these nicknames correct if we are going to be criticised for calling SchM " shoeii, Shoemee," or whatever. :p : :D :rotflmao:

[Saint Devote]

Rubens Barrichello is also known in Brazil as "Pedi-Chanello" someone that plods along in slow footed way.

Just as the Brazilians in the media in Brazil have not stopped slamming Massa for giving way to Alonso. They have essentially called him "little balls" and apparently his popularity has collapsed.

Brazilians yearn for another champion driver like Fittipaldi or Piquet or of course Senna [not likely].

They cheer for Barrichello but thats because he is Brazilian and they "hate" the direct competition which is why Jenson was advised to have heavy security in 2009 and to travel in a bullet proof car and why Jessica did not attend the grand prix. At the track the Brazilians booed and jeered at him.

All part of the Brazilian way.

[Saint Devote]

Yeah! let's get these nicknames correct if we are going to be criticised for calling SchM " shoeii, Shoemee," or whatever. :p : :D :rotflmao:

Typical English speaker - your way is always correct or ALSO correct. Well thats not so.

Schumi is German and his nickname in Germany is Schumi. Anything else is not correct.

[Valve Bounce]

Typical English speaker - your way is always correct or ALSO correct. Well thats not so.

Schumi is German and his nickname in Germany is Schumi. Anything else is not correct.

Do you think that I really care what you believe or think is correct or otherwise? I drive a Volvo, and I couldn't care less what you think is correct or otherwise. :p : :D :rotflmao:

[Tazio]

Do you think that I really care what you believe or think is correct or otherwise? I drive a Volvo, and I couldn't care less what you think is correct or otherwise. :p : :D :rotflmao:
I agree that you need to ease off. Arguing the propriety of nick-names is really over the top imo. :dozey:

[airshifter]

The two car failures - its funny that Jenson has had NONE - must be something to do with Hamilton's driving. Maybe he forgets that championships are won through scoring points.

The only reason Jenson went out of a race prematurely is because of mechanic error at Monte Carlo and thats a circuit which Jenson enjoys and would have scored points.

And as I recall - Jenson won the first part of the championship at the flyaway races - he led the title chase for FIVE races while Hamilton led the championship for only FOUR. Get yer facts straight before crowing!

Maybe you forget that Jenson is behind Hamilton in points. Though I'm not crowing at all, that's a fact. As you said championships are won through scoring points. :D

As for the mechanical failures Lewis has experienced, he had no more control or contribution to them then Jenson did with his engine failure. As for Monte Carlo, Jenson could have just as easily tossed it into the wall.... speculation that your preferred driver would always improve while another would always falter is nothing more than the postion of the blinders you are wearing.

[PSfan]

Am I the only one to thinks its absurd that 2 cars colliding in pit lane, or a tire bouncing past the mechanics with probably enough energy to kill someone warrents a $50,000 fine and yet somehow the stewerds deemed this to be even more then twice as bad, and all based off interpretation of the events!!!

Am I the only one to think the way the rule is worded a little stupid as well. A team on lap one could issue blatant team orders. tell one driver to let the other pass, and only be breaking the rules if neither of those cars have difficulties, for example, if Massa is told outright to let Alonso pass on lap 2, and the Massa's engine dies, the the team order didn't interfere with the races outcome and therefore should incur no penalty.

Also by issuing a penalty, the stewerds are making the very bold statement that Alonso would not have managed to pass Massa on his own, with the amount of laps left, that is a very brave statement. How can someone claim an action infered with the results unless you have determined the outcome already?

And I really don't get the Ferrari criticism... people might think this was the worst attempt at hiding team orders, but they where just using Max Mosleys new guidelines. Or does everybody already forget Max's "Even if this situation was declared to the drivers by radio, this would not be a team order or a manipulation of the drivers' championship, but rather an explanation of a particular situation - (it is) necessary information for the drivers." in regards to the Vettel/Webber incident in Turkey... Considering he was in charge when these stupid rules I think his opinion is worthy of consideration...

[PSfan]

Maybe you forget that Jenson is behind Hamilton in points. Though I'm not crowing at all, that's a fact. As you said championships are won through scoring points. :D



What I seem to forget is... When did Hamilton and Button start driving for Ferrari, and which one was told to let the other pass...

[ArrowsFA1]

This is an important principle, yes? Otherwise, any accusation without proof is acceptable. Which it is not. I hope you agree that is true?
Of course. However, in the case we are discussing the FIA stewards ruled there was sufficient proof to determine that Ferrari were in breach of the rule relating to team orders.

You may disagree with their assessment of the evidence, and perhaps their interpretation of the rule, but the fact remains that Ferrari were found to be in breach of the rule.

[Mia 01]

They will suffer at the WMSC hearing and so will the mighty Alonso.

[airshifter]

Am I the only one to thinks its absurd that 2 cars colliding in pit lane, or a tire bouncing past the mechanics with probably enough energy to kill someone warrents a $50,000 fine and yet somehow the stewerds deemed this to be even more then twice as bad, and all based off interpretation of the events!!!

I have to agree that the pit lane incidents were dangerous and warranted some action. But I think the fact that they are written off as human mistake under pressure gave them a break on the fines. As for the Ferrari fine, $100,000 to manipulate a race and give them a possible chance at Alonso winning the WDC is cheap really.




Am I the only one to think the way the rule is worded a little stupid as well. A team on lap one could issue blatant team orders. tell one driver to let the other pass, and only be breaking the rules if neither of those cars have difficulties, for example, if Massa is told outright to let Alonso pass on lap 2, and the Massa's engine dies, the the team order didn't interfere with the races outcome and therefore should incur no penalty.

I also agree that they ignore certain breaches of the rules. In the above situation in my view if any team issues an order they should apply a penalty, regardless of whether the other car breaks later in the race, etc. There was also no penalty earlier in the year when Alonso passed Felipe on the pit entry with all four tires out of the lines that mark the edge of the track. In my mind that is still a clear violation of the rules, but it was ignored because it was two team members.




And I really don't get the Ferrari criticism... people might think this was the worst attempt at hiding team orders, but they where just using Max Mosleys new guidelines. Or does everybody already forget Max's "Even if this situation was declared to the drivers by radio, this would not be a team order or a manipulation of the drivers' championship, but rather an explanation of a particular situation - (it is) necessary information for the drivers." in regards to the Vettel/Webber incident in Turkey... Considering he was in charge when these stupid rules I think his opinion is worthy of consideration...

I agree it's a rule too hard to enforce and should be changed. There have been too many times when it's not quite as obvious but people can see the team is still in some way attempting to manipulate the race. I can't say I agree that we should listen to Max, as he is really stating that there is a rule and he will ignore violations of it. What really should be done IMHO is to change the rule to allow the orders, and change the title of the WDC or get rid of it and simply have a WCC. If there was no WDC (which I think is an improper title if it's really a team effort), then teams would have no reason to issue an order except to aid the WCC effort. In the example of Felipe and Alonso this last race, they could have simply kept their current positions.




What I seem to forget is... When did Hamilton and Button start driving for Ferrari, and which one was told to let the other pass...

I'll be the first to admit it was my mistake to get dragged into the thread drift.

[pallone col bracciale]

Of course. However, in the case we are discussing the FIA stewards ruled there was sufficient proof to determine that Ferrari were in breach of the rule relating to team orders.

You may disagree with their assessment of the evidence, and perhaps their interpretation of the rule, but the fact remains that Ferrari were found to be in breach of the rule.

Would this fact, the only known fact in this situation, the fact that it is Ferrari who have been found guilty by the stewards on flimsy grounds, certainly grounds which you yourself cannot be proven, without proof, be the reason why you are not aghast at this disgraceful and incorrect decision?

Somehow, I think that if it was another team, one with a silver and red colour scheme, your heart and mind would be outraged.

[airshifter]

Would this fact, the only known fact in this situation, the fact that it is Ferrari who have been found guilty by the stewards on flimsy grounds, certainly grounds which you yourself cannot be proven, without proof, be the reason why you are not aghast at this disgraceful and incorrect decision?

Somehow, I think that if it was another team, one with a silver and red colour scheme, your heart and mind would be outraged.

I can't speak for Arrows, but I don't like team orders regardless of which team issues them. And for the record I feel that the Red Bull, as well as the Mclaren teams used "orders" less obvious in Turkey, and it has happened in other races as well.

I'm not sure why the investigation wouldn't include telemetry from Massas car to determine how much he lifted. Had the team NOT intended him to lift I would have expected radio transmission asking him what the problem was and why he lifted and let another car past him. I would have also expected Ferrari to defend themselves against the fine by using telemetry and other evidence contrary to their finding.

[ArrowsFA1]

Would this fact, the only known fact in this situation...be the reason why you are not aghast at this disgraceful and incorrect decision?
No.

[pallone col bracciale]

No.

But can you prove that?

If you accept, as you have done, that there is no definitive proof that Ferrari used team-orders but you remain happy that the stewards decision was correct, then you have to be happy that I can accuse you of things you cannot disprove.

[edv]

...

You sure sound an awful lot like someone who was on these boards years ago by the name of 'Campione Ferrari'. Are you the same guy?

[Saint Devote]

I don't like team orders regardless of which team issues them.

You have no regard for European motor racing tradition?

Team orders have been a round since racing began and all teams have used them and want to use them and drivers from Fangio down have benefited.

It is a good management skill.

You cannot apply American purist attitudes to European racing - in the same way that European purist attitudes will always be unacceptable to American fans. And I refer to real fans and not those who merely watch racing and consider it no different to football or whatever else.

No team in f1 has supported the outlawing of team orders. The current rule is bad rule and when the WMSC convene in Paris this month I reckon the rule will be moderated significantly.

[pallone col bracciale]

You sure sound an awful lot like someone who was on these boards years ago by the name of 'Campione Ferrari'. Are you the same guy?

To use a quote from Mr Arrows - No.

Of course, I cannot prove it, but some people on this forum are not interested in proof.

[pallone col bracciale]

I'm not sure why the investigation wouldn't include telemetry from Massas car to determine how much he lifted. Had the team NOT intended him to lift I would have expected radio transmission asking him what the problem was and why he lifted and let another car past him. I would have also expected Ferrari to defend themselves against the fine by using telemetry and other evidence contrary to their finding.

Massa said there was no problem, he took the decision to let Fernando past. Telemetry will show that he lifted, but not why.

Again, it comes back to the level of proof....and telemetry is not capable of providing proof of a team-order.

[SGWilko]

Massa said there was no problem, he took the decision to let Fernando past. Telemetry will show that he lifted, but not why.

Again, it comes back to the level of proof....and telemetry is not capable of providing proof of a team-order.

The team did not question why he slowed so much, for me that is damning of the intent of the team to ensure positions were switched.

And that is clearly team interference - aka team orders in my book.

[SGWilko]

I was thinking he sounds like a guy who was banned in the same week as this poster joined the boards. Come to think of it, that banned poster did used to use Italian phrases in their posts from time to time, and was named after a corner on an Italian racing circuit lol. Only joking. :p

......and likes to spout;

"thanks for proving my point" at regular intervals.

Clearly changed ISP or using a VPN to change public IP address.

[Saint Devote]

......and likes to spout;

"thanks for proving my point" at regular intervals.

Clearly changed ISP or using a VPN to change public IP address.

There is a tendency here to try and make trouble for others. What is the objective?

So what even if it is the same person? Do you like to see people banned that you may or may not agree with or do y'all that think it is the same person want the new name to be banned?

At school were you the guys that would tattle tale to teacher?

You can disagree with someone, but being mean and "telling teacher" is just despicable.

[Robinho]

There is a tendency here to try and make trouble for others. What is the objective?

So what even if it is the same person? Do you like to see people banned that you may or may not agree with or do y'all that think it is the same person want the new name to be banned?

At school were you the guys that would tattle tale to teacher?

You can disagree with someone, but being mean and "telling teacher" is just despicable.

apart from signing up under a different name when banned being against the forum rules we signed up to?

for one, i'm not bothered if it is the spirit of a certain corner, whilst most of what he posted was guff it was pretty funny

[Saint Devote]

Telemetry no, but a flustered racing driver, an apologetic race engineer, and a Chairman who has studied the art of foot in mouth at the Universtity of Rome would give Peter Faulk enough material for yet another series of Columbo.

Peter Falk.

Of course you view it as someone that considers Ferrari to have done something wrong.

Those of us who recognize it is Ferrari's right - and this has always been so in motor racing for all teams to engineer the best victory they can - see a team that explained why they did it but at no stage declared they implemented team orders or admitted any kind of false guilt that too many people have been braying like donkeys for.

You may view di Montezemolo as some sort of carricature but he is in fact a very powerful figure in f1 today. He is the dominant person in FOTA and engineered the victory over Mosely during the war with the FIA.

He represents the most power entity in f1 alongside Bernie today.

And if anyone here expects a negative ruling from the FIA they will be disppointed because Bernie is not interested in wrecking f1 and Todt is the last person on earth to see Ferrari compromised - not my watch!

The decision at Hockenheim if the FIA do not reconstruct the rule will become the new de facto rule with a price of $100,000.

For a team like Ferrari, this is a worthwhile price to pay if it means that Alonso will be WDC and that they may also win the constructors title.

With 7 grands prix to go and Ferrari performing really better than it has done all year and only slower than RBR, this fight is not over yet.

Do not expect Alonso and Vettel to make the same mistakes thay have done from now on.

[Saint Devote]

I don't think it was a case of 'us' disagreeing with the poster in question, more a case of this poster disagreeing with just about every single person here simply for fun. He spat venom at you enough times too, and this was a person who could not be reconciled with via PM without him getting very offensive. ;)

Not for a bunch of low life Mclaren fans surely? :p

Well, I dont remember who says what here - just that I think it is not right to undermine anyone's position.

[Saint Devote]

Not for a bunch of low life Mclaren fans surely? :p

:) True - they do tend to be Ron Dennis-like.

[Saint Devote]

Your point about forum rules is not too dissimilar to the topic of this thread as its a rule which may have been broken in the latter sense. A written rule has been broken by Ferrari and they stand against it in defiance, and maybe our friend has done the same.

I agree with your second point though, and he was harmless in reality, and I did kind of feel sorry for him really. :)

There is a distinction between what Ferrari do and what the poster is alleged to have done.

Posting on this forum is not a right so if a rule is broken, then it IS the right of the moderators to act.

It IS Ferrari's right to act in their rational self-interest because that is any entities right. They did not impinge in any way upon anyone else's right because that would of course automatically negate their own.

Simply because a rule is a rule does not make it one to obey - if it is a rule that denies a right - in this case the right of Ferrari to act in their own rational self-interest.

Ferrari own the Ferrari team. They pay the bills, they decide whether to compete and what car to construct and what strategy to use. They have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to decide which driver is better for them to win.

If Massa disagrees then he can leave the team - he did not. By his actions, it is clear that while he was not happy to ackowledge he was slower than Alonso, he decided to move over and this demonstrates that he agreed it was the proper action.

The disgrace is that he allowed his team to be attacked falsely and did nothing. Ferrari ought to have fired the Brazilian on Monday morning - he disgraced himself and tarnished the image of Ferrari.

Any rule that denies a right is automatically not legitamate and in fact I would go as far to say that it is ENCUMBENT upon teams to disobey.

Ferrari have been very clever about this because they also realize that an institution like the FIA, with its kangaroo court can xreate problems.

Briatore found that out - and it took many months and bad publicity to overcome the capriciousness of the FIA. And this has nothing to do with with the actons that led to it at all.

[Robinho]

they don't have the right to be in F1 though, they have to have their entry ratified and by entering they sign up to the rules in place.

Sure, they have a right to do whatever (legally) they like with their organisation.

if they wish to participate in the sport they have to obey the rules or suffer the consequences, which could include (but won't) exclusion.

talking of impinging on anyone elses rights, what about the right so of thise who legally gambled on the outcome of a sporting event, safe in the knowledge there is a rule against tampering with the result?

[PSfan]

I have to agree that the pit lane incidents were dangerous and warranted some action. But I think the fact that they are written off as human mistake under pressure gave them a break on the fines. As for the Ferrari fine, $100,000 to manipulate a race and give them a possible chance at Alonso winning the WDC is cheap really.

Just as I disagree with the assertion that Ferrari's so called team orders influenced the race's result, I disagree with the suggestion that they had manipulated the race. How many laps where left in the race when Alonso passed Massa? With Alonso being much more comfortable and faster on their 2nd sets of tires, with I think it was 17 laps to go, worst Ferrari did was maybe dictate how difficult Alonso's pass on Massa was, and only if you subscribe to the theory that "Alonso is faster, do you understand" as a team order.

Call me naive, But I like to think if Massa could equal Alonso's pace prior to the pass he would have been allowed to win, or Massa became quicker then Alonso later on in the final stages of the race, Ferrari would have expected the same from Alonso.

[Saint Devote]

they don't have the right to be in F1 though, they have to have their entry ratified and by entering they sign up to the rules in place.

Sure, they have a right to do whatever (legally) they like with their organisation.

if they wish to participate in the sport they have to obey the rules or suffer the consequences, which could include (but won't) exclusion.

talking of impinging on anyone elses rights, what about the right so of thise who legally gambled on the outcome of a sporting event, safe in the knowledge there is a rule against tampering with the result?

True they do not have the right to be in f1 - but we all know that kicking Ferrari out of f1 is not in the rational self-interest of anyone - rather change the rule. Anyway, they did not implement team orders - they asked Massa to let Alonso through becaise the Spaniard was quicker.

It is the FIA that is alleging team orders and fined them based on the assessment of the stewards.

How many times on this thread must it be reminded that Ferrari have not ackowledged anything that the FIA alleges.

Those who gamble lost. It has nothing to do with Ferrari - Ferrari has no arrangement with them. Its called GAMBLING.

BTW - Jense placed 100 to 1 odds on himelf winning the title in 2009 before the start of the season - the bookmakers were NOT happy when he came to claim his winnings :D

[Saint Devote]

Very true, but that simple fact is something some fans find it difficult to get their heads around. I suppose a fitting question would be, "do they think Ferrari is bigger than the sport?".. Of course it is not, and their entry signs a contract to obey the rules of the F1 World Championship, just like every other team on the grid. If that forbids a team gesturing for one teammate to let the other one past because he has "signed a contract to drive for the best interests of the team", then they must obey that directive. If they don't, then thats also up to them, but they must face the consequences as its a path they have chosen. :)

The FIA knows that they should not push this issue.
Bernie does not want it and anyone imagining that Todt would be for it is not in touch.

Hugging Jense in congratulations - Bernie said to Jenson in Brazil: you do not listen, you do not obey and you do what you want - I wanted this to be settled in Abu Dhabi :D

Does anyone here imagine that Bernie wants the rather homely Massa to be the number one at Ferrari or the brilliant mercurial Spaniard?

[ArrowsFA1]

...you have to be happy that I can accuse you of things...
Happy? No. Used to it from you? Yes.

As has been said before there is no absolute, definitive, beyond doubt proof that Ferrari gave, or did not give, a team order. However, the relevant fact is that the FIA stewards deemed that they did give a team order and so found them to be in breach of the rules.

[Saint Devote]

I don't think the teams really care about what Bernie thinks when they get down to business.

Okay ..... :rotflmao:

[Saint Devote]

but he's also made comments about a certain Sebastian Vettel being a WDC in a Ferrari, so lets put it down to him winding people up who are gullible enough to take everything he says seriously.

Well of course Bernie has a great sense of humor - problem is that people pick and choose what they want to attack him with - such as his hitler comments.

But as Vettel's de facto manager he could get his WDC wish sooner than he thinks. Vettel is the quickest driver this season and if he stops getting the bad breaks [Hamilton hitting him or the FIA attacking him during a race] he is probably going to win the WDC.

[Valve Bounce]

Bernie is a greedy schmuck

[Tumbo]

It IS Ferrari's right to act in their rational self-interest because that is any entities right. They did not impinge in any way upon anyone else's right because that would of course automatically negate their own.


And yet again you let facts get in the way of your argument. Go back about 30 pages and you might potentially come across your earlier discussion of right vs privilige. There are a number of ways to argue this point in Ferrari's favour this is NOT one of them has never BEEN one of them and will CONTINUE to fail when used as a crutch to say that Ferrari can do what they want on the racetrack.........they are an entity which SIGNED UP to compete in F1 under the present rules, if they don't like them they have no inalienable 'right' to do what they please because of natural justice of any other such nonsense attempted legal argument you throw up, one cannot pick oneself up by their bootlaces

[Retro Formula 1]

Rubens Barrichello is also known in Brazil as "Pedi-Chanello" someone that plods along in slow footed way.



I have never heard this and do not believe you. Rubens is rightly highly respected in Brazil and adored by his fans.

Perhaps you may like to provide some proof? I tried to do it for you by typing "pedi-chanello", "pedi chanello" and "pedi chanello rubens" into Google and guess what I found?

You may be surprised to hear that the only reference to Rubens as "Pedi Chanello" was by some idiot on a forum. Guess which forum it was?

[Valve Bounce]

I have never heard this and do not believe you. Rubens is rightly highly respected in Brazil and adored by his fans.

Perhaps you may like to provide some proof? I tried to do it for you by typing "pedi-chanello", "pedi chanello" and "pedi chanello rubens" into Google and guess what I found?

You may be surprised to hear that the only reference to Rubens as "Pedi Chanello" was by some idiot on a forum. Guess which forum it was?

You'll find it in the Golders Green Weakly. :p : :D :rotflmao:

[N4D13]

A question about Germany 2008 - sorry if that has already been debated, but I haven't seen it. Why does everybody consider that Ferrari wanted Alonso though just to maximise his chances of winning the WDC?

I seem to remember that at that time, Vettel was closing on the two Ferraris -or at least, he was lapping faster than them-, so what if the only reason for Ferrari to let Alonso through was to ensure that they could win the race? If Vettel overtook Alonso first, Massa would be right there, but if Alonso could have got in front of his teammate, Vettel would still have to close on Alonso before overtaking him.

Oh, and just another thing: I've read lots of messages in other forums in which Alonso was harshly criticised because of this manoeuvre, but how much of the fault does really lie on him? There are his radio transmissions, but I truly doubt that it was this which caused Ferrari to order Felipe to let him through.

Greetings from Gran Canaria :) .

[Saint Devote]

Bernie is a greedy schmuck

You know nothing about him and your comment is disgusting.

What have you done with your life? Bernie has built a worldwide sport only smaller than world cup soccer and the Summer Olympics that you take advantage of by watching.

:mad:

[Valve Bounce]

You know nothing about him and your comment is disgusting.

What have you done with your life? Bernie has built a worldwide sport only smaller than world cup soccer and the Summer Olympics that you take advantage of by watching.

:mad: Bernie is greedy and disgusting.

[Saint Devote]

I have never heard this and do not believe you. Rubens is rightly highly respected in Brazil and adored by his fans.

Perhaps you may like to provide some proof? I tried to do it for you by typing "pedi-chanello", "pedi chanello" and "pedi chanello rubens" into Google and guess what I found?

You may be surprised to hear that the only reference to Rubens as "Pedi Chanello" was by some idiot on a forum. Guess which forum it was?

:rolleyes: First of all his fans are not going to call him that are they now? But he is called that in Brazil.

Secondly - I think you may have some moderator trouble coming your way because you have SO broken the rules.

[Saint Devote]

Bernie is greedy and disgusting.

You are just so envious of him ......

[Tazio]

I consider this justification and evidence that Ferrari have used sound judgment in managing its races. And as it is posted on this forum quite often:
"You can't argue with results"

This is no accident (no pun intended) and it is also not cheating. Ferrari has had plenty of problems, but finishing races is not one.

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-ferrari-most-reliable-formula-one-team-in-10-report/


The F10, driven by Fernando Alonso and Felipe Massa, has completed a remarkable 1471 of the possible 1474 laps throughout the 12 races so far.

That is 98 laps more than the Red Bull drivers.

Mercedes is the only other team fielding drivers that have not retired due to accidents in 2010.

In contrast, Red Bull has recorded one failure and two driver crashes, while McLaren has had two technical failures and one accident retirement.

Renault has the worst reliability of the top teams, with four technical retirements and two crashes.

[Saint Devote]

A question about Germany 2008 - sorry if that has already been debated, but I haven't seen it. Why does everybody consider that Ferrari wanted Alonso though just to maximise his chances of winning the WDC?

I seem to remember that at that time, Vettel was closing on the two Ferraris -or at least, he was lapping faster than them-, so what if the only reason for Ferrari to let Alonso through was to ensure that they could win the race? If Vettel overtook Alonso first, Massa would be right there, but if Alonso could have got in front of his teammate, Vettel would still have to close on Alonso before overtaking him.

Oh, and just another thing: I've read lots of messages in other forums in which Alonso was harshly criticised because of this manoeuvre, but how much of the fault does really lie on him? There are his radio transmissions, but I truly doubt that it was this which caused Ferrari to order Felipe to let him through.

Greetings from Gran Canaria :) .

These days there are the people that have been brainwashed in a politically correct and socialist type world - ignore them - Alonso does.

[Robinho]

:rolleyes: First of all his fans are not going to call him that are they now? But he is called that in Brazil.

Secondly - I think you may have some moderator trouble coming your way because you have SO broken the rules.

what was that you posted in the other thread about running to the teacher?

[pallone col bracciale]

I was thinking he sounds like a guy who was banned in the same week as this poster joined the boards. Come to think of it, that banned poster did used to use Italian phrases in their posts from time to time, and was named after a corner on an Italian racing circuit lol. Only joking. :p

Do you have any intention of adding to the debate, which you appear to very rarely do, or is it just your intention to be unwelcoming and unpleasant?

If it is the latter, please PM your issues me so I can report you to the moderators, thank you.

If it is the former, please step away from the keyboard, grazie mille.

I am not interested in what is an apparently an unpleasant attitude towards me.

Other than disagree with your opinion on the Ferrari at Hockenheim debate, I have done nothing to deserve this attitude from you.

Per favore, in the future keep to the topic. Grazie.

[pallone col bracciale]

Happy? No. Used to it from you? Yes.

What?

There is no need to be rude.

[ArrowsFA1]

There is no need to be rude.
I apologise if the assumption which prompted my comment (http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=831029&postcount=751) is incorrect, but this thread does appear to be following a very familiar pattern.

[Retro Formula 1]

:rolleyes: First of all his fans are not going to call him that are they now? But he is called that in Brazil.

Secondly - I think you may have some moderator trouble coming your way because you have SO broken the rules.

I doubt it will do any good but I will answer your post.



I stated that I did not believe you that Rubens is known as Pedi-Chanello in Brazil. I have never heard that name before and the only reference to it on Google happens to be entries you have submitted on this forum. I don't know if you are trying to slander Rubens with a downright lie but there seems to be nothing whatsoever backing up your claim. It may be that some back-street journalist with less credibility than yourself has made a claim in a tittle-tattle rag somewhere but not even that comes up. So, in short, I do not believe you.

Now, it may be correct that you are allowed to insult drivers, call other members disgusting, troll, submit lies, promote violence and bring down the quality of the forum with your posts without any recourse from the moderators. We do in this country, unlike some other states, defend free speech and non-discriminatory practices which you may or may not be as familiar with you. However, with these rights comes a responsibility to exercise them appropriately. If you cannot behave in a civilized manner, if you lie and if you consistently change your mind to suit each individual argument, you cannot meaningfully and positively contribute to a forum, can you?

I will not get into a personal dispute with you. A public forum is no place for childish quarrel and I have better things to do with my time than waste it on someone with your qualities. But, I maintain, it is my considered opinion, taking your behaviour on this forum into account, that you are, indeed, an idiot. That is not an insult, and I am not accusing you of being an idiot. I just suggest that it is my opinion that you are and fully appreciate you have an opinion on me which I respect 100%.

[Valve Bounce]

You are just so envious of him ......

You must be joking. I look young, he looks old and haggard. Besides he is a disgusting greedy person. Why would I envy that?

[Valve Bounce]

:rolleyes: First of all his fans are not going to call him that are they now? But he is called that in Brazil.

.

The things you learn from the Golders Green Weakly. :D

[Tumbo]

I I will not get into a personal dispute with you. A public forum is no place for childish quarrel and I have better things to do with my time than waste it on someone with your qualities.

I wouldn't bother at all really, we have seen that St Devote doesn't respond to reason, ignores anything that doesn't fit into his view of the world (and states as such earlier on this very page - or was I reading into his post too far, was my understanding too much in line w/ how the stewards interpreted the situation regarding Ferrari) and chooses to ignore rationale debate and attack the poster rather than the post.

Given we will end up w/ a new thread come decision day at the WMC all I can see is this thread descend into a slanging match...... i'd say close it but that would be to deny natural justice :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

There is a tendency here to try and make trouble for others. What is the objective?

So what even if it is the same person? Do you like to see people banned that you may or may not agree with or do y'all that think it is the same person want the new name to be banned?

At school were you the guys that would tattle tale to teacher?

You can disagree with someone, but being mean and "telling teacher" is just despicable.

I refer you to the reply given in Arkell v Pressdram

[SGWilko]

please step away from the keyboard, grazie mille. What if he's sitting down? Surely, push back in your chair (the assumption is that most computer workstation seating furniture is mounted on castors) away from your internet connected computer (in case he is using a MAC or even an iPad with on-screen touchpad :eek :) would be better?


I am not interested in what is an apparently an unpleasant attitude towards me.


Why bother with a reply then? :confused:

[Dave B]

I haven't missed much then?! :eek:

The same few posters who can't (or won't) understand that Ferrari putting their own interests first doesn't give them carte blanche to ignore the rules, and who then result to insulting and filibustering when they can't put together a rational argument.

Plus ca change...

[pallone col bracciale]

Why bother with a reply then? :confused:

Please stop being rude and intolerant, per favore.

You have been aggresive, insulting and unpleasant to me since I became a member of the forum.

You have been banned as a direct result of this, so, per favore, stop.

Nothing I have done deserves this attitude. If you do not agree with me on subjects, try to remain polite.

It is not much to ask, no?

Grazie mille.

[pallone col bracciale]

I apologise if the assumption which prompted my comment (http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=831029&postcount=751) is incorrect, but this thread does appear to be following a very familiar pattern.

Scusi, Per favore.

I do not know why you have a problem with me.

I am only showing that to judge without proof is unfair.

I think this we both agree with, no?

I have not been rude to you. I have asked only a question, so please also be polite and tolerant.

Grazie mille.

[airshifter]

You have no regard for European motor racing tradition?

Team orders have been a round since racing began and all teams have used them and want to use them and drivers from Fangio down have benefited.



Spare me your high and mighty approach of disregarding current rules due to history. History and tradition have been proven wrong many times over. Allowing team orders isn't a bad idea IMHO, but there is no sense in calling the WDC and individual title if it is not.

But if you had actually read my posts rather than cherry picking a statement to dispute, you would already know that. Having read yours I understand that your viewpoint changes day to day to suit your favorite drivers, and has no regard for the current rules that govern the sport.

[Saint Devote]

what was that you posted in the other thread about running to the teacher?

This is different.

I cannot retaliate because that means I am breaking the rules and I can get banned.

You must learn how to distinguish these things otherwise you end up like a liberal - where wrong and right is relative rather than absolute.

[airshifter]

Oh, and just another thing: I've read lots of messages in other forums in which Alonso was harshly criticised because of this manoeuvre, but how much of the fault does really lie on him? There are his radio transmissions, but I truly doubt that it was this which caused Ferrari to order Felipe to let him through.

Greetings from Gran Canaria :) .

As much as I think Alonso desired the result he got, the team made the decision and Alonso shouldn't be accountable for it.

I would have much rather the team and Alonso stayed in focus of the current rules regarding the sport. When Alonso whined that "this is ridiculous" over the radio the team should have reminded him that being the faster driver he should have qualified ahead of Felipe, or been able to pass him on the track. :D


BTW, welcome to the forums.

[Saint Devote]

Do you have any intention of adding to the debate, which you appear to very rarely do, or is it just your intention to be unwelcoming and unpleasant?

If it is the latter, please PM your issues me so I can report you to the moderators, thank you.

If it is the former, please step away from the keyboard, grazie mille.

I am not interested in what is an apparently an unpleasant attitude towards me.

Other than disagree with your opinion on the Ferrari at Hockenheim debate, I have done nothing to deserve this attitude from you.

Per favore, in the future keep to the topic. Grazie.

Oh boy - you are just now learning what these people can be like ........

[Saint Devote]

As much as I think Alonso desired the result he got, the team made the decision and Alonso shouldn't be accountable for it.

I would have much rather the team and Alonso stayed in focus of the current rules regarding the sport. When Alonso whined that "this is ridiculous" over the radio the team should have reminded him that being the faster driver he should have qualified ahead of Felipe, or been able to pass him on the track. :D


BTW, welcome to the forums.

Alonso did qualify ahead of Massa but because Vettel dived to the right to try and block Webber they were held up and Massa had a clear run to the front

Secondly what is the point in fighting to overtake one's teammate for nothing when one is clearly quicker and the risk for collision is very high?

Overtaking in f1 is impossible or difficult enough as it is and Alonso and Massa fighting could have ended up like RBR did in Turkey.

The Ferrari drivers are not Hamilton and Button where they give each other room - and if you recall even with them the prat perch stepped in and told them to "hold station".

This is f1 and it is the right thing to do.

[Valve Bounce]

This is different.

I cannot retaliate because that means I am breaking the rules and I can get banned.



Budha should be so kind to me. :(

[Valve Bounce]

Scusi, Per favore.

I do not know why you have a problem with me.

I am only showing that to judge without proof is unfair.

I think this we both agree with, no?

Grazie mille.

I must say that I agree with this guy's right to voice his opinion. While we may not agree with his sentiments, he does have a right to his views. As one of my greatest regrets in life that I never studied law, especially criminal law, I could very easily take his stand if Ferrari was my favorite team. In fact, I'm awaiting the WMSC hearing with great interest because of this.
Just let me digress a little, my idol is Robert Richter : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Richter_%28lawyer%29,
without people like him, our judicial system would not survive. Sorry for going completely off topic, but I just want to explain where I stand on this.