Team orders at Ferrari [Archive] - Page 2

truefan72

25th July 2010, 19:18

I, in Massa's shoes, would have blocked unibrow until kingdom come, and taken the win gleefully. Then show Ferrari the finger and signed for another team.

But alas, people give Ferrari way too much respect than they deserve, and so end up making compromises. Hopefully karma bites them in their a$$. I for one am glad in a way that I've found the perfect villains to hate in F1 from now on.

good point Massa should have known that his race winning day and title contention days were finished the minute Alonso signed to join them and they kicked out another great driver to do so. As soon as he got tht radio message from smedley he should have know that his days at ferrari are at an end and refuse dot yield the position.

After the race the team would be in a tough position of having to reprimand massa for winning a race and looking like fools.

Smedley and massa would both have all the ammunition they need to make public anything that they were told to do if things went from bad to worse. He should leave the team soon. All he needs to do is ask his good friend rubens about life after Ferrari.

truefan72

25th July 2010, 19:20

Whatever controversaties have followed Alonso round like a bad smell, I've always had the utmost respect for his driving. Now I'm afraid the evidence is overwhelming that he cannot handle having a fast team mate, and that he'll cry like a baby unless he gets his own way. If he was truly quicker today he should have overtaken Massa fair and square.

:up:

DazzlaF1

25th July 2010, 19:21

THE_LIBERATOR

25th July 2010, 19:28

Alonso has brought Renault & McLaren to their knees, it only took a few races for him to do it to Ferrari.

donKey jote

25th July 2010, 19:31

Big Bad Alonso Booooooooooooooooooooo

ioan

25th July 2010, 19:35

I wonder why Alonso wasn´t ashamed when he lied at the press conference?

He's never been ashamed, he doesn't know what that means.

PSfan

25th July 2010, 19:36

Dear Ferrari

Red Bull says thank you... :cheese:

Sonic

25th July 2010, 19:47

Dear Ferrari

Red Bull says thank you... :cheese:

Don't they just. Horner looked like a dog with two d***s when he spoke to BBC directly after the GP.

Bradley

25th July 2010, 19:48

What a stupid move by Ferrari.

They could have made it back to the top with a brillant 1-2 win.

After today the team lost support of many, including me. I just hope for Felipe that he still can make more good results this year.
If the car has made the progress it seems, he has chances to win more races imo.

Btw : Massa makes generally very good starts. Almost every race he made a better start then Alonso. Being on 3th position on the grid, I did expect him to take the lead in the first corner, and so he did.

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 19:54

This was a straight question (from another forum)

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_me...ference-sun.pdf (http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/ger-conference-sun.pdf)

Q: (Ian Gordon – News of the World) Fernando, you said after Valencia that the race had been manipulated in favour of Lewis. Those words seem a bit hollow now. Where will this victory rank in your career, is it up there with Singapore 2008?

Roamy

25th July 2010, 19:55

Ferrari sets the environment for these drivers. FIA leave ambiguity in their rules. Don't blame Alonso. Put the blame where it should be. Why should Alonso risk his position when all he has to do is prove he is faster and then call in and have the team handle it. Now do I agree - hell no!!

Dave B

25th July 2010, 19:56

The transcript of the press conference is feisty reading, especially the questions from the floor!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85561

Bradley

25th July 2010, 20:08

The transcript of the press conference is feisty reading, especially the questions from the floor!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85561

That press conference was great :p :D

Shalafi

25th July 2010, 20:24

What team orders? Alonso used his 0.6 seconds in that lap to overtake Massa.

ioan

25th July 2010, 20:26

The transcript of the press conference is feisty reading, especially the questions from the floor!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85561

They were all over Alonso, and rightly so.

And Vettel had one of those moments when it was obvious that all the questions were meant to the other two drivers:

SV: Can I go?

Pure gold!

ioan

25th July 2010, 20:27

What team orders? Alonso used his 0.6 seconds in that lap to overtake Massa.

:rotflmao: Excellent! :up:

Saint Devote

25th July 2010, 20:29

Ferrari are within their right. Alonso - who was quicker - understands this business and both Massa and Smedley ought to be reprimanded for their comments and actions towards Ferrari.

If Massa is dissatisfied then the time to argue the point was during recent contract negotiations.

The FIA fines Ferrari and investigates because of the rule - but as can be argued - the actual application is not quite so simple.

Are there teammorders? No.

Could Massa have defended his position? Yes. He did so earlier on in the grand prix from Alonso. Massa made this decision.

The fine Ferrari looks to be paying is really because the "spirit" of the rule is probably considered broken - but then the FIA are capricious as we saw with the double-diffuser issue in 2009.

SGWilko

25th July 2010, 20:32

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 20:33

I´m sure ferrari and alonso are proud of their victory today.

After the WMSC hearing I´m afraid it wil blow in the wind.

ioan

25th July 2010, 20:35

Saint Devote

25th July 2010, 20:37

I don't often agree with a journalist from the 'News of The World', but this was about as direct a question that anybody should ask. The uncomfortable wording from Fernando and the fact he attempts to turn the attack on the questioner confirms their is an element of guilt of how the race was manipulated.

Guilt? No.

Fernando Alonso was trying to answer a question in a language that is not his, the best he could without enabling it to be used AGAINST Ferrari later on.

Do you know how difficult that is? Could you do the same as eloquently in Spanish?

Personally, I had to learn English and an entirely different alphabet because my natural language is Hebrew. It is not easy and to be under the hostile attack of the moatly self-righteous British journalists who are mostly hostile towards Ferrari anyway, is extreme pressure.

I think Alonso was eloquent and he understands F1. Pity the emotional journalists and too many fans do not.

This is f1 and team orders are the right and are part of f1 - regardless of the politcally correct stupid rules.

Big Ben

25th July 2010, 20:39

:down: :down: :down: Ferrari, Alonso and dare I say Santander!
:down: :up: Smedley and Massa for making the team orders so obvious but still bending over.

I'll never support these Italian cheap-shots again.

The pinnacle of hypocrisy.

Saint Devote

25th July 2010, 20:41

I was wondering how long will it taken until we can read your usual 'pearls'.

Absent emotionalism - you know that I am correct - and that it was the order of play when Schumi was driving for Benetton and Ferrari.

You cannot have it both ways.

DexDexter

25th July 2010, 20:44

Guilt? No.

Fernando Alonso was trying to answer a question in a language that is not his, the best he could without enabling it to be used AGAINST Ferrari later on.

Do you know how difficult that is? Could you do the same as eloquently in Spanish?

Spanish and English are related, it should be relatively simple for Spaniards to learn English (Although they don't despite the 16 million British tourists that visit the country annually). I haven't seen you offer sympathy for drivers who have real problems with communication since their language and culture are so different.

Saint Devote

25th July 2010, 20:47

Thankfully I don't work in an industry that requires me to speak Spanish as a designated first language when comunicating with others. Fernando speaks English very well as most of his career has involved him living in Oxford, and I'm pretty sure he knows how adopt an element of English sarcasm when answering an uncomfortable question.

So you judge him based on what you believe rather than the facts.

ioan

25th July 2010, 20:53

Absent emotionalism - you know that I am correct - and that it was the order of play when Schumi was driving for Benetton and Ferrari.

You cannot have it both ways.

There was a time when team orders were legal and no one was hiding them.

Today it is illegal and what Ferrari did is a slap in the face of all of us followed by lots of lies.
You support this? Fine, I don't.

ioan

25th July 2010, 20:54

So you judge him based on what you believe rather than the facts.

Any normal people would be able to speak fluently in a language after using it for 10 years. Saying that English is his problem is a very poor excuse.

Big Ben

25th July 2010, 21:06

There was a time when team orders were legal and no one was hiding them.

Today it is illegal and what Ferrari did is a slap in the face of all of us followed by lots of lies.
You support this? Fine, I don't.

You´ve missed one great US GP in 2006 ´cause I don´t recall you going so coo coo about it then...

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 21:35

You´ve missed one great US GP in 2006 ´cause I don´t recall you going so coo coo about it then...

It was a disgrace.

Saint Devote

25th July 2010, 21:42

Any normal people would be able to speak fluently in a language after using it for 10 years. Saying that English is his problem is a very poor excuse.

There is a significant difference, it is not a normal situation - Alonso before the world press with I reckon most of the British journalists there generally hostile to him, having to answer questions without accidentally saying anything that can be used to attack Ferrari?

And you think it is so easy in a language that is not his own?

F1boat

25th July 2010, 21:43

Honestly it was unpleasant. I understand why Ferrari did it and I am against punishment other than the fine, but it was very ugly and bad for Felipe. Also I missed PR opportunity - Felipe wins a year after his horrendous crash. But maybe they felt that Vettel is threatening the 1-2 and Fernando was, IMO, faster.
Still, what happened is not great for the sport.

ioan

25th July 2010, 21:44

You´ve missed one great US GP in 2006 ´cause I don´t recall you going so coo coo about it then...

Did Alonso whine about Fisichella being faster or what?

ioan

25th July 2010, 21:46

There is a significant difference, it is not a normal situation - Alonso before the world press with I reckon most of the British journalists there generally hostile to him, having to answer questions without accidentally saying anything that can be used to attack Ferrari?

And you think it is so easy in a language that is not his own?

I do use a language that is not my own for 99% of the time, big deal we all get used to it and after a few months it becomes a reflex.
Language is not an excuse anymore, not in this day of globalization.

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 21:52

After the courts decision the result will be nullified for the reds. I see it as a Seb win today.

F1boat

25th July 2010, 21:57

After the courts decision the result will be nullified for the reds. I see it as a Seb win today.

we have to wait and see, I think that they may nullify their WCC points. I personally think that the fine is enough. It's their team, after all.

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 22:37

we have to wait and see, I think that they may nullify their WCC points. I personally think that the fine is enough. It's their team, after all.

Agreed, they will nullifie all their points, afterall, it was the most blatant team orders in the whole decade. F1 is in disarepute.

And then it´s the legal side of the biznizz, all thoose who betted on felipe, they got a case now.

In a civil court this can go on for some time.

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 22:43

If fearri fix races, why watch?

tinchote

25th July 2010, 23:12

I do use a language that is not my own for 99% of the time, big deal we all get used to it and after a few months it becomes a reflex.
Language is not an excuse anymore, not in this day of globalization.

I have been using a language that is not my own for the last 8 years (including regular public speaking), and I have to say that I disagree with your statement. One gets to a certain proficiency, but nowhere near the one from a native language.

tinchote

25th July 2010, 23:14

markabilly

25th July 2010, 23:36

well, first in defense of Ferrari, at this very race when Button came out right behind Lewis, Mac said, like they were all in a panic, save your fuel....well then towards the end, they said, okay, no worries about fuel, you can go for it....yep, once again....drain them tanks a little bit so it don't look like team orders......
Now being much smarter appearently than their peers at the big red, no one is fussing at mac....... :D

Poor Smedley, no doubt, Luca has him and Massa both in the cross hairs.... :eek:

and Ferrari has now decided "no appeal"....(much like DonKey Jote's old lady, no appeal there either, but dude, you can not get better prices than hers :dozey: ....)

Anyway sounds like the old mercy mercy please plea to authorities......but guess they will still hear the matter anyway... :vader:

But since the meeting is in Italy, ferrari will be serving the kool aid

ioan

25th July 2010, 23:48

I have been using a language that is not my own for the last 8 years (including regular public speaking), and I have to say that I disagree with your statement. One gets to a certain proficiency, but nowhere near the one from a native language.

I disagree.
I can write an official document and keep a speech at a much higher level in French or English then I could ever do it in Romanian, and it's all down to regular daily use.

Anyway invoking language barriers is just an excuse when it comes to answering question that one fully understands.

jas123f1

25th July 2010, 23:54

That press conference was great :p :D

Indeed :)

That’s an example how UNBELIEVABLE it can be, now Ferrari drivers are speaking that there wasn’t any team orders - HOW STUPID :p imp: :p imp: THEY THINK PEOPLE ARE ????

Team orders are not allowed and that is.. believe Ferrari that they are an exception?

100 000$ fine is too little (and too late?).. take points away from Alonso.. at least.. and give the win they steal BACK to Felipe..

Saint Devote

26th July 2010, 00:04

I find it interesting that no one made anything from the fact that David Coulthard commented on team orders during his tenure at McLaren, when he "had to let Mika pass". For years here at these forums McLaren was the "example of fair racing" ;)

There were occassions like that and it has been that way in f1 until the FIA let emotion get the better of sense and intefere after Austria 2002.

"Fair racing" pertains to the concept that the FIA will not favour any team [such as during the Schumi years when the Suderia had technical veto power] and will try to emnsure no team cheats.

Just like freedom of speech pertains to government and does not refer to forcing any private entity - tv or radio station to act against their own interests.

Ferrari was fair today and acted in its own rational interests. The question is when did anybody else suddenly become relevant to that process? Only Scuderia Ferrari management have say over employee actions and if any employee disagrees they can always leave.

ioan

26th July 2010, 00:12

Ferrari was fair today and acted in its own rational interests.

You know nothing about fairness.

wmcot

26th July 2010, 00:19

Red Bull hopes that the FIA and race direction takes measures.

Wow, a real case of pot-kettle. You mean like telling Webber to lean out his mixture to save fuel while telling Vettel to speed up? Only Ferrari had the intelligence not to run into each other!

It's been done for years and any other team would have done the same with drivers in similar standings - nothing to see here folks, move along...

wmcot

26th July 2010, 00:22

If fearri fix races, why watch?

Because when Red Bull try to fix races, their drivers run into each other! :)

wmcot

26th July 2010, 00:23

You know nothing about fairness.

F1 is about business first, then fairness - it always has been.

ioan

26th July 2010, 00:24

F1 is about business first, then fairness - it always has been.

That's one thing and makes claiming fairness in this case absurd.

CNR

26th July 2010, 00:29

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/7/11071.html

Ferrari have been fined US$100,000 by the FIA after race stewards deemed they had breached sporting regulations. The case has also been referred to the World Motor Sport Council (WMSC).

a team with a budget like Ferrari this should have been US$20,000,000

For his part, Massa suggested he and not the team had made the decision to surrender the lead to Alonso: “In my opinion this was not a case of team orders: my engineer kept me constantly informed on what was going on behind me, especially when I was struggling a bit on the hard tyres: so I decided to do the best thing for the team, and a one-two finish is the best possible result, isn’t it?”

now if alonso can get massa to lie what part did alonso play in crash gate ?

Saint Devote

26th July 2010, 00:32

That's one thing and makes claiming fairness in this case absurd.

It is fair. Fair to the rational self-interests of Ferrari whose aim it is to leverage their assets rationally in order to attain their stated goal of winning the titles.

This is after all how Schumacher did it and it works. It always has done and was done by people such as Chapman and Mayer and all the great team managers down the years.

Come in from the cold and join us over here on the Dark Side :vader:

After all - we have pizza, Ferrari, motor racing history and pretty girls on our side :D

Tazio

26th July 2010, 00:34

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/7/11071.html

:s ailor: a team with a budget like Ferrari this should have been US$20,000,000 :bigcry:

:rotflmao: :beer: :s mokin:

wmcot

26th July 2010, 00:36

It is fair. Fair to the rational self-interests of Ferrari whose aim it is to leverage their assets rationally in order to attain their stated goal of winning the titles.

This is after all how Schumacher did it and it works. It always has done and was done by people such as Chapman and Mayer and all the great team managers down the years.

Don't leave Ron Dennis off that list - DC will be mad at you! :)

wmcot

26th July 2010, 00:40

It is fair. Fair to the rational self-interests of Ferrari whose aim it is to leverage their assets rationally in order to attain their stated goal of winning the titles.

And that is how F1 works, folks. If you want to eliminate it, you better only allow teams to have 1 car and 1 driver. Then you can't have team orders.

F1 isn't just about racing, it's a mix of racing, politics and business.

Tazio

26th July 2010, 00:40

Don't leave Ron Dennis off that list - DC will be mad at you! :) :p : :s mokin: :monkeedan :roll:

wedge

26th July 2010, 00:41

I don't have a problem with it. Team orders has been in F1 for decades.

We've seen team orders applied, one way or the other since 2003.

I guess its been a mixture of Ferrari being gullible with their comms now that radios are scrutinised and Massa throwing his toys out by making out how blatant he was asked to move over cf. Kovy pretending to make a mistake and letting Hamilton through in 2008.

I think its tricky for some kind of compromise/halfway house to enforce.

Saint Devote

26th July 2010, 00:44

Don't leave Ron Dennis off that list - DC will be mad at you! :)

:D Perish the thought! Dennis was a team manager in the mould of Colin Chapman which as we saw did NOT go down too well with Alonso.

:eek: Sometimes dear old David Coulthard, like Eddie Irvine has a tendency to be something of a legend in his own mind!

wmcot

26th July 2010, 00:44

Tazio

26th July 2010, 00:51

truefan72

26th July 2010, 00:51

The transcript of the press conference is feisty reading, especially the questions from the floor!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85561

excellent press conference, let them squirm.

the headlines tomorrow will damage Ferrari and as the reporter from Brazil said, Felipe will not be so seen the same in Brazil. If he had refused to yield and won the race he would have instantly been raised to hero status. But now he will get the Rubens treatment and with these times of twitter, internet, forums, facebook, cellphones, etc, it will only be much worse.

Saint Devote

26th July 2010, 00:52

Valve Bounce

26th July 2010, 00:52

:mad:

Sorry guys, but nothing more will come of this. The $100,000 fine is a pittance by Ferrari standards and will probably be covered by a happy sponsor.
No matter how many threads you guys open, or how much you rant in numerous posts, nothing more will come out of this.

That's it. The FIA, WMSC and anyone else won't have the balls to go any further.

Mia 01

26th July 2010, 00:56

They will regret this and pay for it in any way.

truefan72

26th July 2010, 00:58

well, first in defense of Ferrari, at this very race when Button came out right behind Lewis, Mac said, like they were all in a panic, save your fuel....well then towards the end, they said, okay, no worries about fuel, you can go for it....yep, once again....drain them tanks a little bit so it don't look like team orders......
Now being much smarter appearently than their peers at the big red, no one is fussing at mac....... :D

those radio messages were to Hamilton not Button, and he was ahead, so are you saying they were telling hamilton to move over and let the guy behind him in the championship by?
and by not doing so does this not make Hamilton a better character in your book to ignore that?

or is save your fuel now a coded message meaning something else than what you were going on about during the turkish GP :\

Valve Bounce

26th July 2010, 00:59

They will regret this and pay for it in any way.

Nah!! nothing more will happen.

Saint Devote

26th July 2010, 01:01

excellent press conference, let them squirm.

the headlines tomorrow will damage Ferrari and as the reporter from Brazil said, Felipe will not be so seen the same in Brazil. If he had refused to yield and won the race he would have instantly been raised to hero status. But now he will get the Rubens treatment and with these times of twitter, internet, forums, facebook, cellphones, etc, it will only be much worse.

Nothing can damage Ferrari. People who buy the cars understand what Ferrari has to properly do, and respect that.

If any Brazilians do act negatively towards Massa, then it will be a gross injustice. He may not be happy and he should have shown decorum, but Felipe is a team player and this is something that has to be realized.

If Felipe decision is attacked then the attackers will be disgracing themselves and do not deserve being represented so well by such a decent fellow as Massa.

Look at what he has been through over the past year. He is a brave, quick and determined racing driver that has earned his Ferrari drive.

CNR

26th July 2010, 01:01

http://i30.tinypic.com/5nvi4n.png

Saint Devote

26th July 2010, 01:12

http://i30.tinypic.com/5nvi4n.png

Dont know 'bout that mate!

Looks like they finished ONE - TWO to me. It was Red Bull that became the Red Donkey today!

Mia 01

26th July 2010, 01:15

Nah!! nothing more will happen.

It will, already in the next race, and then they wiil be striped and get some heavy punishment after the WMSC hearing. alonslo last false win this year.

ferarri have put the sport at the lowest, they will recive some, they will recive a lot.

CNR

26th July 2010, 01:23

Dont know 'bout that mate!

Looks like they finished ONE - TWO to me. It was Red Bull that became the Red Donkey today!

it would not look as good on the redbull logo :wave:

http://i25.tinypic.com/2ib14p3.png

Saint Devote

26th July 2010, 01:38

it would not look as good on the redbull logo :wave:

:D Quite Brilliant!

I am sure that the RBR team were the MOST relieved today now that the spotlight of controversy has shifted from Milton Keynes to Maranello.

Valve Bounce

26th July 2010, 02:24

It will, already in the next race, and then they wiil be striped and get some heavy punishment after the WMSC hearing. alonslo last false win this year.

ferarri have put the sport at the lowest, they will recive some, they will recive a lot.

Look! I'd like all this to happen, but being a pragmatist, I know nothing will happen. Nothing will come out of the WMSC hearing, and all the protests and rants in this forum will come to nothing, nada, zero, moh yeh, opsayo!

ShiftingGears

26th July 2010, 03:16

I'm a bit surprised about the uproar over this. I wasn't happy that an interesting battle between teammates was taken away, but let's face it - it isn't the first time that team orders have been used since they were banned. Sure as hell won't be the last time either.

The team orders ban is really a feel-good regulation, and the only reason Ferrari were called out was that they ruined Massa's chance for victory a year on from his accident, and there was nothing else happening on track to distract the viewers.

bluegem280

26th July 2010, 03:57

Perhaps team's prediction that Alonso was faster than Massa is right. If not mistaken in lap 16 he can make the gap closer, and traffic in lap 21 was benefiting him again to run in slipstream right behind Massa, we may see that Alonso already took the leads although at the end Massa managed to hold him off.

He might not want to drive overly offensive to the teammate -besides Massa is the one already at the team way longer than him- and decided to back off that gave chance cooling down the engine while Massa keep pushing the car. It was likely Massa's car experiencing power-down and Alonso consistently succeeded to close the gap and took the lead.

We are just not pleased with the move of Massa that looked as if he gave the way for Alonso went through. Imo it was coincidence, no deliberate team order...

longisland

26th July 2010, 05:06

They shouldn't have given in.
Sooner or later, I suspect sooner, they will both be pushed out anyway.
Once you bend over you lose your integrity both in your and your boss' eyes and he will not want you around anymore once this happens, for plenty of reasons.

This reminds me of Rubens...

Roamy

26th July 2010, 06:54

In F1 we have 12 TEAMS - Seems many here lose the meaning of the word TEAM

electron

26th July 2010, 07:03

it seems to me that the mofos at Ferrari today forgot who pays their bills.

it is the fan and the viewer. and today they just shi**ed on them all.

this is the sadest thing, this is bleeding greed. I want your money, you pay ridiculous prices at the races or for our stupid fan stuff but shut up and be a good boy with whatever we deliver cause we are so cool.

Yes, they contend for a championship. and as far as I know the art of overtaking is part of the qualification to be called race driver. Has Fernanado lost it?

they made this call like what... 20 laps prior to the end?
Fernando tried only once in the early race but was countered by Massa, then guess what... he starts whining ("mama, he put me to grass..." comes to mind)

and then, he did not even try to get by Massa on his own.
Farrari claims he was faster? well, he did not prove that to me. Massa conserves tieres to be ready for the fight when it comes (whatever, it is not important because race results are not determined by fastest lap lists!)... instead "the call" comes.
To be trading fastest laps is what this is all about, working the opponent and trying for the pass is what this is about.

the journalist who dared to ask Fernando if this win ranks "up there with Malaysia" for him should get a free drink!
Put that wind up there where the sun don't shine for all I care.

"ok... Felipe... listen... Fernando thinks he has a loose spring in the back, we want you to check that please. do you copy?"

"ok... Felipe... listen... we do not trust you to screw it when Fernando will try to banzai by you so please be a nice boy and let him pass"

"ok... Felipe... listen... we have way to many fans and we want to look like complete arses, do you copy?"

"ok... Felipe... listen... code red 007... in the night is is colder than outside, I repeat: in the night it is colder than outside. please break twice to copy!"

and to all that say everbody does it.... no, they do not!
some teams, McLaren for example even give you the complete radio traffic as a read on their homepage. something like this, shuffling positions during the race just to have the no1 in front, nobody else did this year. Not even attempted.
I want my money back.

F1boat

26th July 2010, 07:36

it seems to me that the mofos at Ferrari today forgot who pays their bills.

Actually I hate to break it for you, but it is Santander. And they have not forgotten that.

Big Ben

26th July 2010, 07:42

Did Alonso whine about Fisichella being faster or what?

It was good boy Massa giving up a win... for MS that time... which made it ok. As I've said, pure hypocrisy. Neither did I hear you go nuts about the RBR trying to get Vettel in front of Webber in Turkey this year... Just like the British army didn't go nuts about the same 'obvious' team orders in the McLaren team at the same event.

longisland

26th July 2010, 07:45

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-michael-schumacher-defends-ferrari-tactics-in-german-grand-prix/

So what do people want out of the show? pardon me, I mean sport.
1) Two team mates taking out each other and start blaming the team management for not imposing team orders. (Senna vs Prost, Ralf vs Montoya and the list goes on)
2) Switching parts of one car to another
3) Just tell the guy the car behind is faster so move over
4) Replaced by a guy with loads of cash

I 'm upset because the show sucks big time

CNR

26th July 2010, 07:51

now i hope Ferrari are never allowed to run a 3rd car

electron

26th July 2010, 08:17

Actually I hate to break it for you, but it is Santander. And they have not forgotten that.

LOL... sorry to break it back to you. You are aware why Santander is coughing up the bucks? because the fans are their so stare at their nice logo for one and a half hour and pay for the stuff that sports their nice logo and Ferrari fanboys will even consider doing bussiness with Santander... and so on.

Just go ask some lower level Motorsportsteam about money and how to generate it and you might understand who it is the marketing guys care about.... you as viewer and your wallet.

[So what do people want out of the show? pardon me, I mean sport.
1) Two team mates taking out each other and start blaming the team management for not imposing team orders. (Senna vs Prost, Ralf vs Montoya and the list goes on)
2) Switching parts of one car to another

actually the 1) teammate rivalerly made some really good show! people still talk about Senna and Prost from decades ago. fighting and sometimes crashing out is part of it and miles better than what happened yesterday.
shut up and drive. (should have been the reply from pits to Alonso after his first radio call...)

2) was also for a good show, beacuse unlike Alsono Webber had the balls to pull it off despite the odds, all by himself. More of that please!

Mark

26th July 2010, 08:32

Personally; I have nothing against team orders, it is a team sport after all. However in this situation the rules state that team orders are not permitted, therefore Ferrari should be disqualified, or at the very least have the points they scored in this race deducted from their Constructors Championship total.

Big Ben

26th July 2010, 08:35

Koz

26th July 2010, 08:57

penalise Ferrari if you must, but why Alonso, apart from you dislike the guy?
a joke indeed... dock it off Smedley's wages :p

You are very wrong on that I was a fan boy, anyone who frequents the chat will confirm this, I have ALWAYS supported him until last night.

Saint Devote, if Button had to move over for Hamilton, I am sure you would react very badly. You'd probably go back to your paratrooping ways and jump on the McLaren factory and proceed to shoot some people up.

We are just not pleased with the move of Massa that looked as if he gave the way for Alonso went through. Imo it was coincidence, no deliberate team order...
Did you watch the race?

ArrowsFA1

26th July 2010, 08:58

Can open. Worms everywhere :crazy:

Team orders have always been a part of Grand Prix/F1 racing[/*:m:3iocvqxv]
The reason we have a rule outlawing team orders is because of Ferrari's actions at the 2002 Austrian GP[/*:m:3iocvqxv]
There have been recent examples of drivers being told "save fuel", or something similar. Were they not a team order?[/*:m:3iocvqxv]
Alonso at the centre of strife in yet another team. Well, well, well, it just keeps happening.[/*:m:3iocvqxv]
If he was the quicker of the two Ferraris then he should have been capable of passing Massa.[/*:m:3iocvqxv]
Rob Smedley 'did a Rubens' and made it patently obvious to everyone what the team were asking Massa to do. Other than saying "this is a team order" he could not have been clearer in what he told Felipe over the radio. That hardly helps Ferrari's cause in defending their actions.[/*:m:3iocvqxv]
Ferrari's attempts to disguise what they did are laughable. At least in 2002 they were open about it, even if the #1 was embarrassed.[/*:m:3iocvqxv]
How ironic that Todt is now FIA President and he now gets to sit on the Council that will judge his former team's actions.[/*:m:3iocvqxv]
I wouldn't be surprised if the team orders rule is scrapped as a result of this.[/*:m:3iocvqxv]

Mintexmemory

26th July 2010, 09:24

Smedder's tone and radio asides ('sorry' 'very magnanimous') amounted to insubordination. Anyone think a race engineer substitution may be in the offing?

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 09:30

Smedder's tone and radio asides ('sorry' 'very magnanimous') amounted to insubordination. Anyone think a race engineer substitution may be in the offing?

Eh, that's not insurbordination. Not telling him Alonso was quicker having been asked to say it by the team would be however.

electron

26th July 2010, 09:33

There have been recent examples of drivers being told "save fuel", or something similar. Were they not a team order?

actually no (like 99% sure). It can be seen from race results that such radio commnads never led to any significant result changes between teammates (that I know of or can remember - also we are talking places 1 and 2 here not places 12 and 13.... would make no sense there anyway)

also, when the matter came up first with the McLaren duel I also was thinking if this is team orders. but
1. the result did not change, they actually fought pretty hard, pretty fair and where still friends afterwards. that is what it should be.
2. it can be proven by data and the fact that McLaren for sure gambles low on fuel this year. so this indeed is a believable command from pits and one that should
3. better have no hidden meaning as for the driver can't judge if fuel is really low if there is a double meaning to it. This better be clear. So actually a bad idea to use a low fuel command for this.

the topic with fuel was discussed after that a lot and since we are just not used to it anymore, this year the fuel actually *is* an isue sometimes, with McLaren more than others maybe. You could follow the McLaren fuel economy run yesterday too. With no impact on the result. So I do not see any save fuel commands as strategy, at any team for that matter.

Mintexmemory

26th July 2010, 09:50

Eh, that's not insurbordination. Not telling him Alonso was quicker having been asked to say it by the team would be however.
Doing exactly what you are ordered to do is obeying orders
Adding your own postscript to indicate that you disagree with the order you have passed on is insubordination (as opposed to disobedience) Look it up in the OED or Websters :cool:

jas123f1

26th July 2010, 09:52

donKey jote

26th July 2010, 09:53

You are very wrong on that I was a fan boy, anyone who frequents the chat will confirm this, I have ALWAYS supported him until last night.
But why take it out on Alonso?
All he did was whine a bit as usual... he didn't tell Massa to pull over, Ferrari did!

Like a two year old throws a tantrum cos he wants a sweety and his parent's cave in and give it to him. Personally, I'd blame the parents :)

Mintexmemory

26th July 2010, 09:58

But why take it out on Alonso?
All he did was whine a bit as usual... he didn't tell Massa to pull over, Ferrari did!

Like a two year old throws a tantrum cos he wants a sweety and his parent's cave in and give it to him. Personally, I'd blame the parents :)

Not a whine,it was Fernando's code for 'I've got the dirt on you and I'll dish it unless you tell this joker that I'm contractually Numero Uno'
This code is actually written into every contract he signs :s mokin:

donKey jote

26th July 2010, 10:02

in this forum, the absolute majority calls it a whine, so it's also a whine ;) :p

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 10:06

in this forum, the absolute majority calls it a whine, so it's also a whine ;) :p

Thank goodness you did not say whinge, cos that rhymes with......

Mintexmemory

26th July 2010, 10:30

Swinge, binge, twinge.... no got me beat, What else? ;)

bluegem280

26th July 2010, 10:39

Massa got benefit from Alonso and Vettel duel at the start. It was almost done Alonso can pass Massa at lap 21. There was possibility if he played it with ego both of them will fail ala Webber - Vettel incident in Turkey, and in such incident driver who want to overtake is usually the one to blame, if so both of them would score no points. He would better save the engine and tyres and looking for better opportunity to overtake.

Team only said to Massa that Alonso is faster than him, it can be perceived that he must set better lap times. Alonso scored fastest lap more than 0.2 s better than Massa. He also had average better laps time than Massa, Alonso is overall faster... ;)

jas123f1

26th July 2010, 10:54

Actually I hate to break it for you, but it is Santander. And they have not forgotten that.

Yes, Santander pay out Kimi with 15'000'000 $ and put in Alonso to the Ferrari team as the first driver and now it's "only" Ferraris job left .. to make him to a champion.. Kimi wouldn't never give Alonso free wayfaring and that's the reason they (Santander) kick him out.. and because they wanted to be sure that Kimi don’t take any drive for 2010 they put in a “fine” 5’000’000 $ in their “arrangement” if he do it.. so F1 loosed one of the best driver on the greed.. and now they don’t let Felipe win and in that way take a way the other threat against Alonsos way to the title.. "money speaks in the rich-men world"..

That’s what I think.

Mark

26th July 2010, 11:13

Yes, Santander pay out Kimi with 15'000'000 $ and put in Alonso to the Ferrari team as the first driver and now it's "only" Ferraris job left .. to make him to a champion.. Kimi wouldn't never give Alonso free wayfaring and that's the reason they (Santander) kick him out.. and because they wanted to be sure that Kimi don’t take any drive for 2010 they put in a “fine” 5’000’000 $ in their “arrangement” if he do it.. so F1 loosed one of the best driver on the greed.. and now they don’t let Felipe win and in that way take a way the other threat against Alonsos way to the title.. "money speaks in the rich-men world"..

That’s what I think.

Sure. But you have to say that Kimi took the deal too! He could have taken 5mil less and gone on to race for someone else, but he chose to take the money and run.

jas123f1

26th July 2010, 12:20

Sure. But you have to say that Kimi took the deal too! He could have taken 5mil less and gone on to race for someone else, but he chose to take the money and run.

That's right, Kimi didn't want to pay 5'000'000 $ for a drive and I understand him, especially when Red Bull made him an offer to drive WCRally in a god car. However, I would like to see him back in F1 and I think F1 need him - because he is an honest guy.. never speek b*** s*** and one of the fastest drivers .....

It was tragicomic to be listening to Alonso and Felipe when team ask them to fabricate their overtaking stories. Same time when Felipe was apparently grieved, he was forced to lie.. sad sad ..

Big Ben

26th July 2010, 12:49

I think the only reason people in here went so nuts about this is that they were seeing Ferrari dead and buried and I can get this hard to swallow... like a slap in the face... especially for those who kept on preaching and foreseeing the doom of this team. Oh boy, wouldn't it be great if they won both titles. That would be sweet and a nice kick in the face of every f1 hooligan and we plenty of those here

Hawkmoon

26th July 2010, 12:54

Ferrari moved Massa out of the way in Brazil 2007 so Raikkonen could win the title. The only difference being that they could use the fuel stops to do it and Massa was OK with it. Common sense and nobody had a problem.

In 2010 they do something similar but without the aid of fuel stops they were much more obvious about it. Throw in a Massa who is decidedly not OK with it and we've got a **** storm.

Ferrari's intent in both cases was the same. The rules about team orders are the same. If Ferrari are to be DQ'd in 2010 because they broke the rule should they not also have been DQ'd in 2007? The rule hasn't changed. All that's changed is Ferrari's method of breaking it.

Another thing to consider is that if the WMSC throw Ferrari out they will be setting a precedent that is going to be very hard to break. If Ferrari are to be hung, drawn and quartered for using team orders then McLaren or Red Bull won't have the ability to do the same thing in the closing stages of what is going to be a very close championship.

How, hypothetically, are Red Bull going to move Webber out of the way to give Vettel those extra few points he needs to beat Hamilton in the final round? The FIA will have made it very clear that team orders will not be tolerated so any communication from the pitwall will be heavily scrutinised.

Of course Red Bull could tell Webber to move over before the race starts so no messy pit-to-car radio conversations need to take place. That's Ferrari's problem right there. They should have had a word with Massa before the race. Because it's only a team order if somebody finds out about it, right?

donKey jote

26th July 2010, 13:07

Thank goodness you did not say whinge, cos that rhymes with......
singe, fringe?
anyway no need for people to get in such a huff about the whole deal, cos that rhymes with... :dozey:

Bagwan

26th July 2010, 13:11

Don't make the team orders , which have and always will be a part of F1 , obvious .

That is a rule that is hard to police .

Dock the paycheques of Felipe , and his engineer , fifty grand each .

ArrowsFA1

26th July 2010, 13:21

Don't make the team orders , which have and always will be a part of F1 , obvious .
Or scrap the team orders rule entirely.

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 13:30

singe, fringe?
anyway no need for people to get in such a huff about the whole deal, cos that rhymes with... :dozey:

Meal, teal, squeel, wheel, heel, heal, veal, neil, kneel, peel, feel......

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 13:32

Dock the paycheques of Felipe , and his engineer , fifty grand each .

What a splendid idea, and give it to Onslo, for his 'we are so sorry you were hard done by' fund.

He can invest with the Abbey National for a rainy day, not that I ever was keen on the square brolly idea.........

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 13:35

Or scrap the team orders rule entirely.

Maybe, but fans of racing want to see, dare I be so bold as to say it - racing, no?

So, team orders are fine if the guy behind is genuinely faster and within, lets say .6 of a second consistently.

Massa should have done a Ronnie, and circled around under Onslo's gearbox after the move, and then, a few laps from the end, dropped back only to post the fastest lap.

Actions speak louder that words. And Massa had the fact that Chopper was close by to justify doing that. If only.

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 13:38

singe, fringe?
anyway no need for people to get in such a huff about the whole deal, cos that rhymes with... :dozey:

Oh, you were on about huff I guess. Fluff, cuff, tough, rough, luff......

redson

26th July 2010, 13:43

like FIA didn't interfere with the results enough this year.

Exactly, this is a lesson we learned from Valencia. If you don't obbey the rules but the fine imposed is less than what is gained, then let's not follow the rules. The price for Alonso being again a WC contender is 100k,so they broke the rule (like everybody does) and thats all.

hmmm - donuts

26th July 2010, 13:48

My two pennyworth...

1. Considering the potential rewards, a fine of this size is insignificant and will not dissuade teams from similar actions in the future.

2. A suitable punishment IMHO would have been to dock the constructors points AND swap Massa's and Alonso's results about. This way there would be no advantage to breaking the rules.

3. Teams in this situation usually rattle on about this being a team sport. My response is that swapping two drivers positions does not affect the number of points awarded to the team.

4. F1 needs to decide if it is a team sport, an individual sport, or both. If both then the drivers should be allowed to race for the drivers championship. The team should only concern itself with the constructors championship.

Regards

d

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 13:50

As an F1 driver (not personally) the first person you need to beat is your team mate. Generally, being faster in practice and qualifying demonstrates your superior speed, but this is nothing without racecraft.

If you can't beat your teammate by overtaking him in a genuine manouvre, then I consider that a poor show, and reflects badly on the driver.

Add to this the amount of shyte that has stuck to Onslo over the years, and it appears he is only capable being the best if unchallenged.

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 13:52

4....The team should only concern itself with the constructors championship.

Regards

d

Yup, you don't suppose the Santander money comes with a caveat do you?

Maybe 'our man must win at all costs'? :s mokin:

MrJan

26th July 2010, 14:05

Meh. Couldn't really give a toss about it, team orders are as much a part of F1 as wheels and engines. McLaren would do the same, Red Bull would do the same (Christian Horner has got a lot of nerve whingeing after the stunt that RBR pulled with Webber's wing). The teams all want their driver to be the World Champion so they do what it takes. Those 5 points could be huge by the end of the season, Ferrari know it, Massa knows it and Christian Horner knows it.

ArrowsFA1

26th July 2010, 14:08

Found this funny for some reason :p :

http://twitter.com/Formula1game/status/19568881267

N. Jones

26th July 2010, 14:38

If Alonso was faster than Massa he should have overtaken him. Instead he whined and look what has happened.

Alonso also whined that he was faster than Fisichella in the Canadian GP back in 2005(?).

Is the man afraid to overtake a teammate? Do teammates have an inherent need to keep their driving partner behind them, thus we see teammates crashing into each other more often than when drivers from different teams fight for position?

Ferrari made a pig's breakfast of this race when they had PR gold staring them in the face had Massa won on the anniversary of his terrible accident at the Hungaroring.

markabilly

26th July 2010, 14:42

Maybe, but fans of racing want to see, dare I be so bold as to say it - racing, no?

So, team orders are fine if the guy behind is genuinely faster and within, lets say .6 of a second consistently.

Massa should have done a Ronnie, and circled around under Onslo's gearbox after the move, and then, a few laps from the end, dropped back only to post the fastest lap.

Actions speak louder that words. And Massa had the fact that Chopper was close by to justify doing that. If only.

you just had to pop off with "Chopper".....

OH, please, do not refer to vettel, as Chopper!!!

That is such an insult to webber, your hero, as well as to the elder chopschuie, and you show such ignorance unworthy of a poster when you do that..... :D

markabilly

26th July 2010, 14:43

Found this funny for some reason :p :

http://twitter.com/Formula1game/status/19568881267
Great, I loved it.....

Fact is everyone is doing it, but none are being obivous, until Ferrari comes along and cuts a big fart

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 14:44

you just had to pop off with "Chopper".....

OH, please, do not refer to vettel, as Chopper!!!

That is such an insult to webber, your hero, as well as to the elder chopschuie, and you show such ignorance unworthy of a poster when you do that..... :D

My hero? Sorry to urinate on your embers, but Webber aint my hero.

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 14:45

If Alonso was faster than Massa he should have overtaken him. Instead he whined and look what has happened.

Simple, init though?

Mintexmemory

26th July 2010, 14:47

Oh, you were on about huff I guess. Fluff, cuff, tough, rough, luff......

I think that Ferrari will experience a lot of rancour because...... :p

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 14:48

I think that Ferrari will experience a lot of rancour because...... :p

......their Spanish sponsor is a banker??????

markabilly

26th July 2010, 14:48

My hero? Sorry to urinate on your embers, but Webber aint my hero.
First you think that vettel qualifies as a chopper....
then u claim webber is no hero
As a brit, you need plenty of this until you see the light
:arrows:

and perhaps a little kool aid might help :beer:

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 14:49

First you think that vettel qualifies as a chopper....
then u claim webber is no hero
As a brit, you need plenty of this until you see the light
:arrows:

and perhaps a little kool aid might help :beer:

Probably.

F1boat

26th July 2010, 15:03

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85573

Whitmarsh again a true gentleman. I can believe how classy this guy really is. After Ron, McLaren look totally changed. It's incredible.

N. Jones

26th July 2010, 15:08

Simple, init though?

Yeah it is. And now, instead of Ferrari being thrown in good light because of a Massa win after his horrible accident they are now thrown into bad light because of team orders.

It's all very sad...

markabilly

26th July 2010, 15:14

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85573

Whitmarsh again a true gentleman. I can believe how classy this guy really is. After Ron, McLaren look totally changed. It's incredible.

"That is my decision and that is what we want to do. Others do what they want to do, and it is for the FIA and Ferrari to determine what they think is right. We were racing our two guys until the end of the race."

Hahaha, sure enuff... :rolleyes: ......that is funny...what he is going to tell ferrari is youse guys better figure out how to do team orders right without getting caught, without screwing up the game for the rest of us, or we will all pay the price at the end

when hamilton jumped Button during the pitstops, as Lewis had a superfast stop and Button did not, they were immediately on the radio to Button, once again, telling him he must conserve fuel, aggressively conserve fuel.....and then towards the end, said to the contrary when they were much further apart and race pretty much over...........

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 15:47

Hahaha, sure enuff... :rolleyes: ......that is funny...what he is going to tell ferrari is youse guys better figure out how to do team orders right without getting caught, without screwing up the game for the rest of us, or we will all pay the price at the end

when hamilton jumped Button during the pitstops, as Lewis had a superfast stop and Button did not, they were immediately on the radio to Button, once again, telling him he must conserve fuel, aggressively conserve fuel.....and then towards the end, said to the contrary when they were much further apart and race pretty much over...........

You would prefer it if they said 'dump fuel, you are way too heavy'?

If you save fuel when you are not under threat, you will have more chance of successfully fending off an attacker if that scenario arrives later in the race.

wedge

26th July 2010, 15:55

Yeah it is. And now, instead of Ferrari being thrown in good light because of a Massa win after his horrible accident they are now thrown into bad light because of team orders.

It's all very sad...

Fairytale stories are rare. Leave that to Hollywood.

wedge

26th July 2010, 16:01

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 16:03

Save fuel = hold position

It could mean that, but...

Save fuel = Save fuel.

Imagine that?

555-04Q2

26th July 2010, 16:04

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 16:05

Team orders still exist, just because the FIA says it is illegal now does not mean it doesn't happen anymore.

Yep, they do. But only Ferrari are short sighted enough to blatantly flout the regulation.

markabilly

26th July 2010, 16:06

You would prefer it if they said 'dump fuel, you are way too heavy'?

If you save fuel when you are not under threat, you will have more chance of successfully fending off an attacker if that scenario arrives later in the race.
at the time, lewis was right in front of button upon lewis exit from pits and might well have attacked lewis....but the message was delivered....of course maybe it meant save fuel and it was just coincidence that it was before the midrace point, and lewis was just now in front

wedge

26th July 2010, 16:26

It could mean that, but...

Save fuel = Save fuel.

Imagine that?

At Istanbul Button attacks Hamilton and afterwards is adamantly told to save fuel and suddenly backs. After the race it turns out Button had more fuel than Hamilton left in the tank and therefore enough for another attack.

Robbed of a racing spectacle - going by the logic of the majority after yesterday.

Arguably "saving fuel" is far more explicit than a being told a team mate is quicker than you but at the end of the day its down to the driver to interpret those commands.

1982 San Marino GP Villenueve and Pironi were told to slow down and there were two different interpretations. Pironi apparantly stole the race from Gilles and, ironically enough, has been the villain ever since.

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 16:35

At Istanbul Button attacks Hamilton and afterwards is adamantly told to save fuel and suddenly backs. After the race it turns out Button had more fuel than Hamilton left in the tank and therefore enough for another attack.

Both drivers told to save fuel, Hamilton even questions his engineer to check Jenson told same thing. Lewis takes the 4 apex turn 8? a little too slowly, Jenson sees the car in front going a lot slower than normal, so takes the chance to pass.

Lewis picks up the pace, retakes, then they settle into a rhythm.

JB had 1/2 a lap I think it was more fuel than Lewis at the end - not a significant amount.

In fact, the only juicy radio comment they could find to air to the public was Lewis asking about JB being told to save fuel also.

No conspiracy there.

Dave B

26th July 2010, 16:42

If so minded the fia could request evidence backing up requests to save fuel. I doubt Ferrari have any evidence which explains yesterday's race fixing.

MrJan

26th July 2010, 16:51

Both drivers told to save fuel, Hamilton even questions his engineer to check Jenson told same thing. Lewis takes the 4 apex turn 8? a little too slowly, Jenson sees the car in front going a lot slower than normal, so takes the chance to pass.

Lewis picks up the pace, retakes, then they settle into a rhythm.

JB had 1/2 a lap I think it was more fuel than Lewis at the end - not a significant amount.

In fact, the only juicy radio comment they could find to air to the public was Lewis asking about JB being told to save fuel also.

No conspiracy there.

I'm willing to bet that you would view it differently if Ferrari or another team had told a driver to 'save fuel'....not that you'd admit such bias of course.

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 17:24

I'm willing to bet that you would view it differently if Ferrari or another team had told a driver to 'save fuel'....not that you'd admit such bias of course.

Depends, all the facts in the particular case of McLaren at Turkey are out, and the situation is very clear.

Sorry there is no meat left on the bones for you to pick, but that's just the way it is, as Bruce H would sing.

Retro Formula 1

26th July 2010, 17:34

I don't see what all the fuss is about and I'm a Massa supporter. Alonso is the only one of the Ferrari drivers with a decent chance of winning the 2010 WDC and Ferrari were trying to get him closer to the top of the driver standings. We don't have to like it and I feel for Massa, but it is a team sport after all.

Team orders still exist, just because the FIA says it is illegal now does not mean it doesn't happen anymore.

And yes, I expect to take a lashing for the above comment :p :

No lashing I'm afraid but would like to offer my opinion on all the "Fuss".

For me there is 3 sections to the answer.

1. What's the big deal about team orders?
2. What impact did Ferrari's decision have on the sport?
3. What should happen now?

1. Team orders are banned and hopefully nobody here is stupid enough to believe Ferrari didn't employ them.

We can discuss until the cows come home if Team orders should be banned or not but at the moment they are a fundamental part of the sporting regulations and were proactively and wilfully broken in a premeditated manner.

2. I think this has had a terrible effect on the sport. This year has been a great one with what seems to be fans returning to watch the sport. However, these new fans along with us old established supporters believe we have been hoodwinked and cheated.

The man that should have won had to give his victory to someone that didn't earn it. People think that the sport is a farce and a major sporting event has been corrupted by blatant cheating.

F1 has obviously been brought into disrepute.

3. So, what should happen now?

This is such a difficult thing to answer as the rule is such a stupid one. It would seem logical that sometimes it's necessary to employ preferential treatment but should only be when a driver has no chance of winning the championship. If these positions were reversed, then Massa would be 10 points closer.

So far, the FIA have given a fine which is meaningless but what else can the FIA do? You cannot reverse positions and disqualifying the two Ferrari's would seem so unfair but the fact remains that serious harm has been done to the sport. Not only that, there is also questions being raised about legality and international Law. You cannot fix an international sporting event and run the risk of being arrested and tried. If I had money on Massa, I would like some answers.

Why, oh why, did they do it so obviously??? I know other teams do it but this was like sticking 2 fingers up?

At the moment, the credibility of the sport is in the dirt and this is not finished with yet.

Bagwan

26th July 2010, 18:18

Yeah when you are committing the act of flouting the regulations, the last thing you want is two honest souls scuppering the whole thing. Escort them both to an ATM with Mr Alonso and make them hand over the money, and preferrably a Santander one which charges when they draw the money out. If you're going to rob them, do it in full.. :rolleyes:

They robbed the team .
They should give it back .

ioan

26th July 2010, 18:24

like FIA didn't interfere with the results enough this year.

Lousy excuse.

ioan

26th July 2010, 18:30

Ferrari moved Massa out of the way in Brazil 2007 so Raikkonen could win the title. The only difference being that they could use the fuel stops to do it and Massa was OK with it.

The real difference beeing that it was the last race of the year and Massa knew he had ZERO chances to win the title, so it was easy to do it.

Yesterday both drivers were in the running for the WDC, Ferrari didn't get any advantage from this move, however they blew Massa away exactly one year after he was 1 inch from death in one of these scarlet cars.
How do you think that he feels about yesterday after being so loyal to these scums for such a long time?

ioan

26th July 2010, 18:32

Bagwan

26th July 2010, 18:36

Quote from skc:
1. What's the big deal about team orders?
2. What impact did Ferrari's decision have on the sport?
3. What should happen now?

1. used every race
2. none , used every race .
3. legalise team orders

Every order , by it's very nature , from a team , is a team order , and will affect the result of the race .
Therefore , it is completely illogical to attempt to employ such a rule .
It's pretty simple .

The way in which the rule is actually used is , however , another thing .

It seems only a matter of how popular the driver involved is , or how un-popular a team is , that gets the press going , that gets the fans stirred , that prompts the FIA to fine a tactic all the teams employ .
It's simply stupid that it is a matter of the degree of public dissatisfaction that gets one fined and investigated .

Ferrari had to know they would take some stick for letting Alonso pass .
The had just seen the same dour face on a winner for the Bulls , made dour because only a few points had cost him a wing .
30 points , when a victory is tough , and worth only 25 , is simply not enough to have you take the number one status .
The dour face cost them $100,000 .

ioan

26th July 2010, 18:43

Or the $1m they recieved in 2002 should have at least been a consideration when they made the decision. So far they have got off very lightly and $100,000 ten times less than their previous sanction for the same offence.

The million back in 2002 wasn't for the team orders as those were legal back then.

jerryb

26th July 2010, 18:45

Let's face it, all the above discussion just goes to prove that there is no effective way to control team orders.

I would think that if the situation were to come up again at Ferrari you would see a different scenario. This time instead of ordering Massa to let Alonso by they would simply have a problem with an errant wheel during his pit stop. Not much, just a few seconds would be enough.

So where does that leave us?

If I were a driver facing such a decision, I would have to decide if I wanted to be the number 2 on a top team or whether I wanted to actually race as hard as I could for a lesser team. You won't win a championship either way but you might have a better feeling about yourself and your career.

The only way I can see it ending is if every driver agrees to the same contract stipulations outlining that there is no number 1 or 2 and that they can race each other. Don't worry about teammates taking each other out-do away with the constructors title and it won't matter. Remember that the constructors title didn't enter the picture until 1958. Prior to that there were some hair raising battles within teams. If the drivers are deciding their own chances for a title you just may see some interesting racing.

I know that this will never happen, since it is no longer a sport but a business and the "win at all cost" attitude extends to the contracts that the lawyers dream up. All I know is that I would not feel good about winning a championship knowing another driver was told to move over. If you are a champion you need to find a way to win and prove it on the track, not in the boardroom.

Retro Formula 1

26th July 2010, 18:57

Quote from skc:
1. What's the big deal about team orders?
2. What impact did Ferrari's decision have on the sport?
3. What should happen now?

1. used every race
2. none , used every race .
3. legalise team orders

I think you're missing the point.

1. They are illegal. Whether they should be or not is immaterial. All that matters is you cannot do it.

2. If you cannot see the considerable impact this has had on the sport, then I am honestly not going to try and convince you otherwise.

3. I don't see how they can effectively can police the ban on team orders. As you say, it is widespread. The only difference,and why there is uproar, is that Ferrari were so utterly stupid in how they implemented their race fixing.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree with your victimisation whine though. It wasn't because it was Ferrari. It was because it was blatant cheating in front of Millions of people; many who have been left disillusioned.

markabilly

26th July 2010, 19:50

well if Martin wanted to privately tell Luca and ferrari how to do it right, so as to keep any more flash back from what he and other teams have been doing, or if ferrari were the least bit interested in keeping down backlash, Luca makes it clear this was team orders and as much as says so, when he says enough of the hypocrisy right from his very own website:

Maranello, 26 July – The day after the splendid one-two finish at Hockenheim, the Ferrari President chose to express his satisfaction with this long awaited result, through the Scuderia’s web site. “I am very happy for all our fans who finally, yesterday, saw two Ferraris lead from start to finish as they dominated the race,” said Luca di Montezemolo in Maranello, where he reviewed the season so far along with Stefano Domenicali. “The result is down to the efforts of all our people, who never give up. Now we have to continue working like this, to improve the car so that is competitive at all the circuits we will encounter. Alonso and Massa also did very well, giving their all throughout the weekend.

The polemics are of no interest to me. I simply reaffirm what I have always maintained, which is that our drivers are very well aware, and it is something they have to stick to, that if one races for Ferrari, then the interests of the team come before those of the individual. In any case, these things have happened since the days of Nuvolari and I experienced it myself when I was Sporting Director, in the days of Niki Lauda and not just then…

Therefore enough of this hypocrisy, even if I can well believe that some people might well have liked to see our two drivers eliminate one another, but that is definitely not the case for me or indeed for our fans.”

Looks like Luca been reading Taz's posts

http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formula1/News/Headlines/Pages/100726_f1_Montezemolo_interests_of_team_come_befor e_those_of_the_individual.aspx

N. Jones

26th July 2010, 20:09

Fairytale stories are rare. Leave that to Hollywood.
True but in this case it could have been a reality, unless Alonso knows how to pass.

Wasted Talent

26th July 2010, 21:18

I think you're missing the point.

1. They are illegal. Whether they should be or not is immaterial. All that matters is you cannot do it.

2. If you cannot see the considerable impact this has had on the sport, then I am honestly not going to try and convince you otherwise.

3. I don't see how they can effectively can police the ban on team orders. As you say, it is widespread. The only difference,and why there is uproar, is that Ferrari were so utterly stupid in how they implemented their race fixing.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree with your victimisation whine though. It wasn't because it was Ferrari. It was because it was blatant cheating in front of Millions of people; many who have been left disillusioned.

Agreed

WT

truefan72

26th July 2010, 21:40

No lashing I'm afraid but would like to offer my opinion on all the "Fuss".

For me there is 3 sections to the answer.

1. What's the big deal about team orders?
2. What impact did Ferrari's decision have on the sport?
3. What should happen now?

1. Team orders are banned and hopefully nobody here is stupid enough to believe Ferrari didn't employ them.

We can discuss until the cows come home if Team orders should be banned or not but at the moment they are a fundamental part of the sporting regulations and were proactively and wilfully broken in a premeditated manner.

2. I think this has had a terrible effect on the sport. This year has been a great one with what seems to be fans returning to watch the sport. However, these new fans along with us old established supporters believe we have been hoodwinked and cheated.

The man that should have won had to give his victory to someone that didn't earn it. People think that the sport is a farce and a major sporting event has been corrupted by blatant cheating.

F1 has obviously been brought into disrepute.

3. So, what should happen now?

This is such a difficult thing to answer as the rule is such a stupid one. It would seem logical that sometimes it's necessary to employ preferential treatment but should only be when a driver has no chance of winning the championship. If these positions were reversed, then Massa would be 10 points closer.

So far, the FIA have given a fine which is meaningless but what else can the FIA do? You cannot reverse positions and disqualifying the two Ferrari's would seem so unfair but the fact remains that serious harm has been done to the sport. Not only that, there is also questions being raised about legality and international Law. You cannot fix an international sporting event and run the risk of being arrested and tried. If I had money on Massa, I would like some answers.

Why, oh why, did they do it so obviously??? I know other teams do it but this was like sticking 2 fingers up?

At the moment, the credibility of the sport is in the dirt and this is not finished with yet.
this is an excellent post and pretty much sums up the matter. Everyone should read it and understand the issues at stake.

There is a difference between teams bending the rules or being slick or not wanting an unnecessary racing incident between teammates in the closing stages of the race that could jeopardize a maximum points finish ( i.e. telling them to hold station, by which the driver already ahead and having earned that spot isn't unnecessarily going to get into a calamitous fight with his teammate) and then outright theft of a race victory with half the season to go, and then subsequently lieing to everyone about it. What makes the matter worse is that his own teammate initiated the actions whilst unable to actually pass his teammate who out drove him right from the start of the race. Thats what made 2002 Austria so terrible and thats what makes 2010 German equally as pathetic.

Vivid

26th July 2010, 21:44

Ok, did any of you complain when Massa let Raikonnen overtake him in Brazil so that he was able to be world champion instead of Alonso...mmm...I don't think so.

Was Ferrari cheating (not Alonso)? Yes, and so was probably McLaren with its "saving fuel" thing. And SO WAS HAMILTON FOR SURE a couple of races ago when he ILLEGALLY overtook the safety car. His points are now counting. Why not Alonso's?

Really, some comments in here coudn't be more biased. Why don't you just say "ONLY BRITS SHOULD WIN" (or Germans as a second option). It might be a nice summary of what underlies in you comments.

It's ridiculous to forbid team orders in cases like these. After all who is paying a huge amount of money for racing the car, Massa or Ferrari?

And how fast has been Massa in relation to Alonso up until now?? They have the same car, haven't they? And if Massa's car is rigged to be slower than Alonso's, why is he renewing his contract for 2 years??

Rollo

26th July 2010, 21:46

Every order , by it's very nature , from a team , is a team order , and will affect the result of the race .
Therefore , it is completely illogical to attempt to employ such a rule .
It's pretty simple .

Personally I think that banning team orders are stupid. If you're paying hundreds of millions of pounds to run a Formula One team, then you expect a return on your investment. That return is ultimately either to have a driver or the team win the World Championships.

Banning team orders is counterproductive to that end.

markabilly

26th July 2010, 21:49

You supporters better shift your gears, as Luca said more or less, they did it, "enough of this hypocrisy" and "polemics" (arguing).

Pretty much in your face, so what are you going to do about it attitude of no remorse, none.

So what will the fia do about it?????
They will have to change the rule, or slap Luca hard.......or that is what someone with a little bit of common sense and half of a brain would think

of course since this is the FIA.......they will probably do something lacking any real world logic........

and in the process, people like Mac are thinking in a panic, what if they really get strict on us as well...after all, worrying about saving fuel long before the race is close to half over, does look a little suspect.........

Vivid

26th July 2010, 22:05

What makes the matter worse is that his own teammate initiated the actions whilst unable to actually pass his teammate who out drove him right from the start of the race.

This is really, really funny. So you call "out drive someone", to pass both Vettel and Alonso when Alonso was trying to avoid hitting the wall because Mr. "push-them-out-of-the-track", that is Vettel, was doing just that.
Smart guy, Vettel (sarcasm). And you call out drive someone to continuously block the wheels when Alonso tried to pass in a far more relaxed way?

This is a comedy thread, isn't it?

Garry Walker

26th July 2010, 22:08

Vivid

26th July 2010, 22:23

Let me guess, you have good arguments.

Vivid

26th July 2010, 22:27

Let me guess, you have good arguments apart from your nationalistic nonsense.

truefan72

26th July 2010, 22:30

So where does that leave us?

If I were a driver facing such a decision, I would have to decide if I wanted to be the number 2 on a top team or whether I wanted to actually race as hard as I could for a lesser team. You won't win a championship either way but you might have a better feeling about yourself and your career.

Good points and I think massa should know that as long as Alonso is in the team his championship ambitions are over, and/or life will be very difficult and troubling for him and the team with a petulant unhappy Alonso who thinks that it is his god given right to be #1 in a team even if his teammate is just about as good or fast or in the hunt for the WDC. So at that moment massa should have not yielded gone on to get his victory, dealt with the flak and then moved on to another good team next year or even a driver swap this year with a team looking for a solid driver and giving up a willing lap dog in return, Petrov, liuzzi, de la rosa or even hulkenberg (as they can groom him to be their next schumi) seem to come in mind.

woody2goody

26th July 2010, 22:32

Good points and I think massa should know that as long as Alonso is in the team his championship ambitions are over, and/or life will be very difficult and troubling for him and the team with a petulant unhappy Alonso who thinks that it is his god given right to be #1 in a team even if his teammate is just about as good or fast or in the hunt for the WDC. So at that moment massa should have not yielded gone on to get his victory, dealt with the flak and then moved on to another good team next year or even a driver swap this year with a team looking for a solid driver and giving up a willing lap dog in return, Petrov, liuzzi, de la rosa or even hulkenberg (as they can groom him to be their next schumi) seem to come in mind.

Massa and Webber should leave their teams and join someone who isn't willing to screw them over in a heartbeat.

Mia 01

26th July 2010, 22:43

somehow I have a little bit better understanding of what happened in MacLaren 2007.

Tumbo

26th July 2010, 23:12

Really, some comments in here coudn't be more biased. Why don't you just say "ONLY BRITS SHOULD WIN" (or Germans as a second option). It might be a nice summary of what underlies in you comments.

Since when was Massa British or German????? Last I checked the vast majority of the comments in here believe that the moral victor should have been the actual victor and he certainly is NOT European

Hawkmoon

26th July 2010, 23:33

The real difference beeing that it was the last race of the year and Massa knew he had ZERO chances to win the title, so it was easy to do it.

Yesterday both drivers were in the running for the WDC, Ferrari didn't get any advantage from this move, however they blew Massa away exactly one year after he was 1 inch from death in one of these scarlet cars.
How do you think that he feels about yesterday after being so loyal to these scums for such a long time?

You missed the point ioan. Ferrari broke the rule in 2007 just as they did in 2010 and nobody called for their execution. The point in the season in which it is done is irrelevant. The rule doesn't say "team orders are banned unless one driver is mathematically out of the running". They're banned in all circumstances.

Who are we to judge when the right time to use team orders is? That's up to the teams. Yes it would have been a nice story for Massa to win but Ferrari winning the championship is better.

You may sit back at the end of the season and say "well, Alonso lost the championship by a point but wasn't it nice to see Massa win on the anniversary of his accident?" Ferrari wouldn't think that and nor would their fans. The team did what they believed is necessary to win the title, which is exactly what they should do.

motetarip

26th July 2010, 23:42

I have no issue with a driver allowing their teammate past to further their chances at the WDC but only if that truly is the driver's choice

ioan

26th July 2010, 23:57

Let me guess, you have good arguments apart from your nationalistic nonsense.

Looks like Gary was right and you have no argument at all.

ioan

26th July 2010, 23:58

This is really, really funny. So you call "out drive someone", to pass both Vettel and Alonso when Alonso was trying to avoid hitting the wall because Mr. "push-them-out-of-the-track", that is Vettel, was doing just that.
Smart guy, Vettel (sarcasm). And you call out drive someone to continuously block the wheels when Alonso tried to pass in a far more relaxed way?

This is a comedy thread, isn't it?

Yes it's a comedy thread especially after your post.

ioan

27th July 2010, 00:03

You missed the point ioan. Ferrari broke the rule in 2007 just as they did in 2010 and nobody called for their execution. The point in the season in which it is done is irrelevant. The rule doesn't say "team orders are banned unless one driver is mathematically out of the running". They're banned in all circumstances.

Who are we to judge when the right time to use team orders is? That's up to the teams. Yes it would have been a nice story for Massa to win but Ferrari winning the championship is better.

You may sit back at the end of the season and say "well, Alonso lost the championship by a point but wasn't it nice to see Massa win on the anniversary of his accident?" Ferrari wouldn't think that and nor would their fans. The team did what they believed is necessary to win the title, which is exactly what they should do.

YOu see I gave up in believing that Ferrari are always right and now I think that individuals have their rights too not only the teams and their financial backers, I don't give a rat's arse about who's got the money and who doesn't.

In 2007 and 2008 the drivers were only asked to make way when they didn't have a mathematical chance to win the title and as such they felt it was the right thing to do. Yesterday this wasn't the case.

I don't remember Smedley making such a fuss about it back in 2007 either, I wonder why?!

wedge

27th July 2010, 00:38

YOu see I gave up in believing that Ferrari are always right and now I think that individuals have their rights too not only the teams and their financial backers, I don't give a rat's arse about who's got the money and who doesn't.

In 2007 and 2008 the drivers were only asked to make way when they didn't have a mathematical chance to win the title and as such they felt it was the right thing to do. Yesterday this wasn't the case.

I don't remember Smedley making such a fuss about it back in 2007 either, I wonder why?!

What about 2006 US GP?

Massa was leading the first stint and let Schumi through after the first round of stops. Massa was quite happy to do it because the change of positions was unbrazen. There were little complaints IIRC

Saint Devote

27th July 2010, 00:38

Maybe not officially but the crowd backlash and the public condemnation of the incident certainly helped the FIA come to their decision. Afterall it was the incident which lead to team orders being banned, and Ruben's swapping places with Michael, which effectively was two drivers changing which step they stood on was hardly an offence worthy of a $1m fine. A precedent was set and the regs were changed to what is deemed unacceptable in the sport today... :)

And the FIA reacted in a kneejerk fashion based on emotionalism. The rule has no place in mortor racing and Ferrari are morally correct and have history of motor racing on their side.

It is not the responsibility of Ferrari to pander to the whimsical notions of modernity - questionable in every sphere as far as morality and values are concerned - in order to appease the silly sensitivities of so-called "fans".

Simply because one refuses to recognize Copernicus does not make the belief that Ptolemy is correct, true - unfortunately too many people believe that what one "feels" is right as opposed to what is objectively proper and true.

Supported by Michael Schumacher and Niki Lauda today, Luca De Montezemolo is a strong leader and Enzo Ferrari would have done the same - only more blatantly. He would have told the FIA and those fans who are so self-righteously bleating on about this affair in which they have absolutely no concrete or valid stake, to simply: well y'all know the rest!

Saint Devote

27th July 2010, 00:46

And I have said this before - simply because a rule or regulation exists, it does not mean it is just and that it ought to be adhered to.

Saint Devote

27th July 2010, 00:51

If Alonso was faster than Massa he should have overtaken him. Instead he whined and look what has happened.

Alonso was quicker - Smedley radioed Massa that he had almost 3 seconds over Alonso and that he had to push and keep that lead.

Massa failed and Alonso caught up.

Ferrari saw not only what happened to Red Bull recently but more so that each time Alonso HAS PASSED Massa on track it results in damage - such as the coming-together at Silverstone.

It was a wise and correct decision.

If people don't like this part of f1 then maybe they should watch soemthing else. ALL forms of motor racing employ team orders in one form or another, its always been that way and it is the proper way.

markabilly

27th July 2010, 01:04

And the FIA reacted in a kneejerk fashion based on emotionalism. The rule has no place in mortor racing and Ferrari are morally correct and have history of motor racing on their side.

It is not the responsibility of Ferrari to pander to the whimsical notions of modernity - questionable in every sphere as far as morality and values are concerned - in order to appease the silly sensitivities of so-called "fans".

Simply because one refuses to recognize Copernicus does not make the belief that Ptolemy is correct, true - unfortunately too many people believe that what one "feels" is right as opposed to what is objectively proper and true.

Supported by Michael Schumacher and Niki Lauda today, Luca De Montezemolo is a strong leader and Enzo Ferrari would have done the same - only more blatantly. He would have told the FIA and those fans who are so self-righteously bleating on about this affair in which they have absolutely no concrete or valid stake, to simply: well y'all know the rest!

And I have said this before - simply because a rule or regulation exists, it does not mean it is just and that it ought to be adhered to.

Like I said, you supporters better change your gears....and so you did......

why stop there??? why not go further with a secret traction control, secret new engine parts and repairs, maybe a secret bottle of some nitro oxide for a little extra HP when you need it......

and with the same logic, RD should have said, "we stole that data from Ferrari, as competition always justifies the means and it was morally right...so screw you and your stupid rules" :eek:

Morally correct???? whimsical notions of modernity - questionable in every sphere as far as morality and values are concerned ?????
objectively proper and right????
rules to be disregarded because they are not just??

:rolleyes:

airshifter

27th July 2010, 01:11

Alonso was quicker - Smedley radioed Massa that he had almost 3 seconds over Alonso and that he had to push and keep that lead.

Massa failed and Alonso caught up.

Ferrari saw not only what happened to Red Bull recently but more so that each time Alonso HAS PASSED Massa on track it results in damage - such as the coming-together at Silverstone.

It was a wise and correct decision.

If people don't like this part of f1 then maybe they should watch soemthing else. ALL forms of motor racing employ team orders in one form or another, its always been that way and it is the proper way.

Maybe if Alonso can't make a clean pass he should improve his racecraft. Quite a few other drivers manage to do it.

I can agree that team orders will take place, but they shouldn't be so blatant. If it's all about the team they should take away the title of WDC completely. It's not really an individual title when a team forces a driver to be a #2 and support one of the teams drivers.

racefan08

27th July 2010, 01:15

Valve Bounce

27th July 2010, 03:51

Maybe if Alonso can't make a clean pass he should improve his racecraft. Quite a few other drivers manage to do it.

.

As much as I hate to, I have to agree with the other guy here. Look what happened to Mark Webber when Vettel decided to ram him when he found it difficult to get past.

FORZA FERRARI !!!!

Saint Devote

27th July 2010, 04:03

Like I said, you supporters better change your gears....and so you did......

why stop there??? why not go further with a secret traction control, secret new engine parts and repairs, maybe a secret bottle of some nitro oxide for a little extra HP when you need it......

and with the same logic, RD should have said, "we stole that data from Ferrari, as competition always justifies the means and it was morally right...so screw you and your stupid rules" :eek:

Morally correct???? whimsical notions of modernity - questionable in every sphere as far as morality and values are concerned ?????
objectively proper and right????
rules to be disregarded because they are not just??

You make it sound as though we are talking about rules and regulations for concentration camp murders imposed by some evil dictatorship

:rolleyes:

dude, drink some kool aid before you get any dizzier and fall off your high pedestal...hello, it is just motor racing for sport and some prize money....

and oh, yeah, why would any idiot think it worthwhile to "appease the silly sensitivities of so-called "fans". Screw them and the horse they rode in on.....

Watch your flippant words buddy boy - you are addressing an Israeli. We do not close the doors and switch off the lights. We step outside.

Saint Devote

27th July 2010, 04:10

Maybe if Alonso can't make a clean pass he should improve his racecraft. Quite a few other drivers manage to do it.

I can agree that team orders will take place, but they shouldn't be so blatant. If it's all about the team they should take away the title of WDC completely. It's not really an individual title when a team forces a driver to be a #2 and support one of the teams drivers.

I prefer that it IS done in the open.

Ferrari have the right to leverage the position of Alonso - there is no way that Massa will win the 2010 title and really win a WDC title EVER. He is the best driver for a number two.

It was his choice to move aside and allow the quicker car through - he could have decided against and fought with Alonso, but the Spaniard would have won anyway.

Massa signed his contract for 2011 and 2012 and decided against trying to prevent the inevitable.

Felipe Massa's actions agree with the decision of Ferrari - and all the sulking and moaning and whatever else, does not change his actions - aka: reality.

Briefly: Massa agreed with Ferrari's actions by his OWN actions.

Saint Devote

27th July 2010, 04:16

Alonso is such a cry baby. If he had a faster car then his team mate why didn't he try to pass him. Poor Felipe he has to be careful commenting on the situation because Ferrari just renewed his contract. Maybe Felipe needs to go to another team.

The only driver that has been going around "crying" since yesterday has been Massa to Brazilian tv.

Maybe Ferrari should consider firing Massa in the same way that Red Bull considered acting against Webber for his outburst until he retracted and rephrased after Silverstone.

truefan72

27th July 2010, 04:20

Maybe if Alonso can't make a clean pass he should improve his racecraft. Quite a few other drivers manage to do it.

I can agree that team orders will take place, but they shouldn't be so blatant. If it's all about the team they should take away the title of WDC completely. It's not really an individual title when a team forces a driver to be a #2 and support one of the teams drivers.

and if it was all about the team then they would not care since they got the 1-2 anyway. Were they afraid that Alonso could not defend his position from Vettel and that massa would be better to defend 2nd postion?

this was not a team decision. this was an Alonso decision. It was a "lets get Alonso the victory before he throws another tantrum" victory. As far as I can tell only alonso benefited from this whole mess. Ferrari still got maximum points, Massa and Smedley are unhappy, the team is dealing with a fallout and PR nightmare, the team has been fined $100k and is facing a wmsc hearing, and fans & media are unhappy. They might even lose some sponsors because of this. All this to gift an unnecessary win :\

Valve Bounce

27th July 2010, 05:34

Watch your flippant words buddy boy - you are addressing an Israeli. We do not close the doors and switch off the lights. We step outside.

Please don't make us laugh. I have worked in Israel, and have worked closely with intelligent people as well as schmucks like you. If you stepped outside, you'd probably trip over your shadow. :D

wmcot

27th July 2010, 06:52

How, hypothetically, are Red Bull going to move Webber out of the way to give Vettel those extra few points he needs to beat Hamilton in the final round?

They will tell him to "save fuel" or they might go as far as calling him in for a "slow puncture."

wmcot

27th July 2010, 06:56

I can agree that team orders will take place, but they shouldn't be so blatant.

Yeah, so let's have all the drivers take acting lessons so they will sound convincing. Maybe the teams could also program the simulators so the drivers can practice letting their team mate past in a less detectable manner.

pino

27th July 2010, 07:28

No different to what McLaren pulled in Turkey.

Exactly or to what they did in Hockeinheim in 2008...

epI6u6uA8hM

...and I dont remember many in here did complain about it.

More Team Orders Incidents after Austria 2002 :

Monaco 2007: McLaren order Lewis Hamilton not to challenge Fernando Alonso for the race win

Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop to put Kimi Raikkonen into the lead so he can win the world title

Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics

Singapore 2008: Renault order Nelson Piquet to crash to cause a safety car period that helps Alonso win

China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race

Big Ben

27th July 2010, 07:45

CNR

27th July 2010, 08:27

how about go the path of fiat yamaha 2 teams in one with a wall between them

(this started when rossi switched tyres)

CNR

27th July 2010, 08:42

Schumacher agrees ‘100%’ with Ferrari

he would look a hypocrite if he did not agree

Big Ben

27th July 2010, 08:58

Airshifter has been discussing F1 on here for 9 years now, which is 5 years longer than you have.

ok. Have I said that he started discussing f1 this weekend?

He hasn't noticed just how difficult it is to overtake in f1 even when the car in front is just slightly slower. But then again you might have to ignore some facts when the whole point is bashing a driver or a team.

Big Ben

27th July 2010, 09:00

Schumacher agrees ‘100%’ with Ferrari

he would look a hypocrite if he did not agree

I don't like the guy but all my respect for not being a hypocrite about it... like Horner, Withmarsh and some fanboys are...

Dave B

27th July 2010, 09:01

And I have said this before - simply because a rule or regulation exists, it does not mean it is just and that it ought to be adhered to.

Eh? I really do fear for my own sanity sometimes, reading this forum. :\

So presumably you'd have no problem if a team turned up in Hungary with a 3-litre turbocharged engine?

The teams have an input on the rulemaking process, and yes maybe one could argue that not every rule in the FIA's rulebook is perfect. But once you pay your entry fee and sign on the dotted line, you agree to conduct yourself by those rules whether you like them or not.

You simply cannot have teams deciding which rules they wish to adhere to - that would be anarchy.

:dozey:

Big Ben

27th July 2010, 09:04

Eh? I really do fear for my own sanity sometimes, reading this forum. :\

So presumably you'd have no problem if a team turned up in Hungary with a 3-litre turbocharged engine?

The teams have an input on the rulemaking process, and yes maybe one could argue that not every rule in the FIA's rulebook is perfect. But once you pay your entry fee and sign on the dotted line, you agree to conduct yourself by those rules whether you like them or not.

You simply cannot have teams deciding which rules they wish to adhere to - that would be anarchy.

:dozey:

well.. you're wrong. Hamilton proved you should break the rules where the penalty doesn't fit the crime.

Dave B

27th July 2010, 09:06

By the way, do these words from Luca di Montezemolo basically admit race-fixing? Ferrari are going to have a tough time arguing to the WMSC that they were innocent after their president's latest outburst:

"I simply reaffirm what I have always maintained, which is that our drivers are very well aware, and it is something they have to stick to, that if one races for Ferrari, then the interests of the team come before those of the individual.

"In any case, these things have happened since the days of Nuvolari and I experienced it myself when I was Sporting Director, in the days of Niki Lauda and not just then."

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85587

Dave B

27th July 2010, 09:09

well.. you're wrong. Hamilton proved you should break the rules where the penalty doesn't fit the crime.
Are you talking about overtaking the safety car? That was against the rules, and rightly he was punished for it. As it happens the timing meant he escaped lightly, but nevertheless he broke a rule and was punished.

Our friend is arguing that you can arbitrarily pick and choose which rules you obey, provided you think the rule is unjust. Down that path madness lies.

Dave B

27th July 2010, 09:18

Anyway, all this "interests of the team" guff from Luca. How many points do you score for a 1-2 as opposed to a 2-1? :p

pino

27th July 2010, 09:28

Dave just a question for you...what's the difference between what happent on Sunday and what happent in Hockenheim in 2008 between Lewis and Kovalainen ?

Hawkmoon

27th July 2010, 09:37

Dave just a question for you...what's the difference between what happent on Sunday and what happent in Hockenheim in 2008 between Lewis and Kovalainen ?

I can answer that for you. Kovalainen wasn't as pissed off as Massa was. Oh, and $100,000.

Dave B

27th July 2010, 09:58

Dave just a question for you...what's the difference between what happent on Sunday and what happent in Hockenheim in 2008 between Lewis and Kovalainen ?
Simple. Lewis was being held up by a team mate who would only go on to finish 5th. Heikki knew that if he let Lewis go, the Englishman had a chance to hunt down the guys in front and gain more points for both himself and the team. Hamilton went on to win the race, while Heikki's P5 was evidence that he didn't have the pace of his team mate.

After the race there was no protest, and no investigation. Other teams, and the stewards, did not believe there was a case to answer. There was no evidence ever put forward that it was anything other than Heikki's decision.

When Massa let Alonso past they were 1st and 2nd. They literally could not improve on this, so any suggestion that it was for the good of the team is a smokescreen by Luca di Montezemolo. If they'd even been 2nd and 3rd, and Alonso could have been freed up to fight for the win, I'd have no problem with their move.

Retro Formula 1

27th July 2010, 10:10

Dave just a question for you...what's the difference between what happent on Sunday and what happent in Hockenheim in 2008 between Lewis and Kovalainen ?

Pino

I have no doubt that Heikki made a bit of room for Lewis on that day. Now, it might have been that the team had a word with him before the race and said "don't hold Lewis up" or it might be that decided to let his team mate past as he knew it would disadvantage them both if he tried to hold onto it.

The fact is that nobody came on the radio moaning about a rediculous situation and the team didn't clearly give as close to a direct order as is possible.

Team orders are something that will subtly happen in the background. What we saw on Sunday was the sport being brought into disrepute again and the worlds media exposing it as a sham.

As I have said previously, it is not just breaking the rules of the sport but I think is a criminal act as well.

SGWilko

27th July 2010, 10:25

Anyway, all this "interests of the team" guff from Luca. How many points do you score for a 1-2 as opposed to a 2-1? :p

Indeed - Luca's recent comments on the web site are digging a nice hole, showing up the comments made by certain team members immediately after the race that it was not a team order.

Everyone who has claimed that the no team orders rule is stoopid is correct. It is a stoopid rule in the way it is written.

The rule needs to be either removed, or something better put in place to ensure that, while teammates still both have mathemetical chances at the title, the team cannot influence the result. If evidence can be shown that the driver alone used his discretion, then so be it.

The rule as it stands was put in place to stop the blatant race manipulation that we saw on Sunday and in 2002 at both Indy and Austria.

The fact that Ferrari have done it again, is what has got up so many peoples noses.

A race should be a race. Let the better driver win by proving he is the better driver.

Alonso could have passed Massa, if he had remained behind Massa in the fast corner, and then drafted by up to the braking point at the next corner.

But, he clearly lacks either racecraft or the mental ability to be patient for the right moment.

Now, when teammates work together for the team because one no longer has a mathematical chance for the WDC, then history has shown that the rulemakers will make exceptions. And as intelligent people, the viewer can understand the process and the rationale.

But the events of Hockenhein 2010 were shameful. They did not need to be, and that is the point.

Big Ben

27th July 2010, 11:00

Simple. Lewis was being held up by a team mate who would only go on to finish 5th. Heikki knew that if he let Lewis go, the Englishman had a chance to hunt down the guys in front and gain more points for both himself and the team. Hamilton went on to win the race, while Heikki's P5 was evidence that he didn't have the pace of his team mate.

After the race there was no protest, and no investigation. Other teams, and the stewards, did not believe there was a case to answer. There was no evidence ever put forward that it was anything other than Heikki's decision.

When Massa let Alonso past they were 1st and 2nd. They literally could not improve on this, so any suggestion that it was for the good of the team is a smokescreen by Luca di Montezemolo. If they'd even been 2nd and 3rd, and Alonso could have been freed up to fight for the win, I'd have no problem with their move.

Just like Alonso was being held by a driver that was only x on the wdc table. I know you know this but I'm going to say it anyway: despite having a wcc teams care more about one of their driver getting the wdc.

CaptainRaiden

27th July 2010, 11:22

Just like Alonso was being held by a driver that was only x on the wdc table. I know you know this but I'm going to say it anyway: despite having a wcc teams care more about one of their driver getting the wdc.

Well, mathematically both drivers had a chance at winning the WDC. It's not as if Alonso was 100 points ahead, and it was impossible for Massa to win the championship.

Say what you will about Mclaren, they did allow Button to make that risky move at turn 1 at Turkey, and then Hamilton to make that bonkers move a corner or two later. Red Bull also sat and saw their two drivers crash into each other and throw the race away. All Alonso did was have a big whinge to uncle Stefano after Massa blocked him, and Ferrari gave him his toy some 30 odd laps later. Blecch, hardly a racer. :down:

ArrowsFA1

27th July 2010, 11:27

Alonso could have passed Massa, if he had remained behind Massa in the fast corner, and then drafted by up to the braking point at the next corner.

But, he clearly lacks either racecraft or the mental ability to be patient for the right moment.
Or...he knew the call would come and he would be given the win.

I do wonder if there might be something in Massa & Alonso's contracts which said the team would put their efforts behind whoever was leading the championship at a certain point in the season. Perhaps that point was around the European/British GP's.

Dave B

27th July 2010, 11:43

Or...he knew the call would come and he would be given the win.
Interesting.

<unfounded conjecture> It would certainly make sense of Alonso's "this is ridiculous" radio call when he was following Massa, if he was expecting the Brazillian to jump out of the way. It could also explain the tone of Rob Smedley's message, if he was annoyed at having to remind Felipe-baby of his contractural obligations in front of the whole world.</unfounded conjecture>

bluegem280

27th July 2010, 11:55

Nurburgring 07 brought him up worthiness of experience. He only knew that Massa is a defensive driver. Team didn't call Alonso to get pass Massa or anything. In this critical point in the standing points all drivers are supposed to put aside their own interest to support whomever has bigger possibility challenging title. In many races Alonso let faster drivers to get pass him. Besides leading in points, the fact Alonso drove faster, there is no reason to call something into question whether or not he won the race on his own strength... ;)

Saint Devote

27th July 2010, 11:59

Good news - Bernie supporting the elimination of team orders.

I'd say it is the beginning of the end of that stupid rule and Ferrari's proper actions on Sunday will have triggered it.

555-04Q2

27th July 2010, 12:10

Alonso was quicker - Smedley radioed Massa that he had almost 3 seconds over Alonso and that he had to push and keep that lead.

Massa failed and Alonso caught up.

Ferrari saw not only what happened to Red Bull recently but more so that each time Alonso HAS PASSED Massa on track it results in damage - such as the coming-together at Silverstone.

It was a wise and correct decision.

If people don't like this part of f1 then maybe they should watch soemthing else. ALL forms of motor racing employ team orders in one form or another, its always been that way and it is the proper way.

Incorrect. Massa was matching Alonso lap for lap. On sevral occassions Massa lost time badly during the race with traffic, with the one backmarker allowing Alonso to try and make a pass at Turns 6 & 7. I have the race on tape and watched it again last night. Massa had faster average lap times than Alonso up to the point that Alonso was let past.

Saint Devote

27th July 2010, 12:19

Incorrect. Massa was matching Alonso lap for lap. On sevral occassions Massa lost time badly during the race with traffic, with the one backmarker allowing Alonso to try and make a pass at Turns 6 & 7. I have the race on tape and watched it again last night. Massa had faster average lap times than Alonso up to the point that Alonso was let past.

He was losing time - Alonso also had to move through traffic.

Massa's lead went from 3 seconds to gearbox close - that is SLOWER and Alonso passed him.

No matter how you wish to spin it - it is not possible for someone to be quicker AND be caught.

Just look and you will also see that Alonso's quickest lap on lap 66 and Massa's also on lap 66 was quicker than Massa.

But this is a technical matter - the point is moot in my view.

Even if Alonso was 10 seconds behind Massa - it is Ferrari's right and the proper traditon of motor racing always, that the number 2 driver [Massa] move aside for the number 1 driver [Alonso] at a team's instruction.

ArrowsFA1

27th July 2010, 12:22

I'd say it is the beginning of the end of that stupid rule and Ferrari's proper actions on Sunday will have triggered it.
If the team orders rule had not been in place on Sunday would F1 fans have been any happier with what Massa was told to do?

I suspect this might be the beginning of the end for article 39.1 of the F1 sporting regulations, but the rule was introduced for a reason.

How does F1 balance the wish of the teams to run their teams as they see fit with the public's wish not to see manipulated or staged results?

Caroline

27th July 2010, 12:34

And I have said this before - simply because a rule or regulation exists, it does not mean it is just and that it ought to be adhered to.

Rules are rules, surely? There is no room for interpretation.

Team members should not portray a disunited front at any time publicly, but even this could be neutralized if the core problem was elminated - revoke the rule of no team orders.

Is this a rule? An unwritten rule? Perhaps Rob Smedley and Felipe Massa felt that it wasn't right and that it ought not be adhered to?

Another bad association for Alonso, what a shame. He may be a former WDC but surely the public now see him in a very different light after his various brushes with controversy.

Dave B

27th July 2010, 12:35

Even if Alonso was 10 seconds behind Massa - it is Ferrari's right and the proper traditon of motor racing always, that the number 2 driver [Massa] move aside for the number 1 driver [Alonso] at a team's instruction.

No no no. Yet again you're muddying the waters by confusing what should be in the rules with what's actually in the rules.

Maybe it is a daft rule, that's certainly a debate which should be heard. But, as it stood on Sunday afternoon, that WAS the rule and Ferrari breached it. They don't have a "right" to pick and choose which rules they wish to obey, whatever you may think.

wedge

27th July 2010, 12:42

Simple. Lewis was being held up by a team mate who would only go on to finish 5th. Heikki knew that if he let Lewis go, the Englishman had a chance to hunt down the guys in front and gain more points for both himself and the team. Hamilton went on to win the race, while Heikki's P5 was evidence that he didn't have the pace of his team mate.

After the race there was no protest, and no investigation. Other teams, and the stewards, did not believe there was a case to answer. There was no evidence ever put forward that it was anything other than Heikki's decision.

When Massa let Alonso past they were 1st and 2nd. They literally could not improve on this, so any suggestion that it was for the good of the team is a smokescreen by Luca di Montezemolo. If they'd even been 2nd and 3rd, and Alonso could have been freed up to fight for the win, I'd have no problem with their move.

2006 US Grand Prix (held in July) - Massa leads the first stint but then gives up the lead after the first round of pit stops. Everyone knew this would happen. Massa happily obliged because the switch over was unbrazen.

Where was the outcry?

Dave B

27th July 2010, 12:44

2006 US Grand Prix (held in July) - Massa leads the first stint but then gives up the lead after the first round of pit stops. Everyone knew this would happen. Massa happily obliged because the switch over was unbrazen.

Where was the outcry?
You'll have to forgive me but I don't have a clear recollection of the race. If I get a spare couple of hours I'll dig out the DVD.

ArrowsFA1

27th July 2010, 12:56

Where was the outcry?
People didn't feel conned :confused:

IIRC Massa had some kind of mechanical issue which slowed him. Genuine or not? Who knows!

pino

27th July 2010, 13:27

Pino

I have no doubt that Heikki made a bit of room for Lewis on that day. Now, it might have been that the team had a word with him before the race and said "don't hold Lewis up" or it might be that decided to let his team mate past as he knew it would disadvantage them both if he tried to hold onto it.

The fact is that nobody came on the radio moaning about a rediculous situation and the team didn't clearly give as close to a direct order as is possible.

Team orders are something that will subtly happen in the background. What we saw on Sunday was the sport being brought into disrepute again and the worlds media exposing it as a sham.

As I have said previously, it is not just breaking the rules of the sport but I think is a criminal act as well.

Both you and Dave have to try harder to convince me :p : I still think that what Ferrari did was exactly what other team have done for years (Ferrari included), so I really don't understand all this complaining and all these threads against Ferrari...but that's probably because I am a tifoso ;)

markabilly

27th July 2010, 14:04

People didn't feel conned :confused:

!

I think it was because it was not so blatant and in your face, but here we have a driver who does not have the negative fan base of Freddie, CLEARLY being told to move over on the one year anniversary of his spring incident.

It really goes back to, if the violation is not so clear and your face, it is okay.

Given Luca's outburst, it is now even more blatant and in your face.

Luca is saying Luca-Ferrari will only obey a rule that Luca-ferrari finds acceptable and in the best interests of the team as they deem those interests to be.

Otherwise, screw you. So if Ferrari finds a way to open up an engine and fix /replace parts, in such a manner as to replace/repair the seals so that no one can at the FIA can detect the repairs or breaking of the seals, then if Luca deems it in the best interests of the team, then they will do it.

After all, it has always been the tradition of the Ferrari team for many many years, that when an engine needs fixing, they fix it..... :rolleyes:

Not even Ron Dennis would have been this much in the face as Luca has been.

So the FIA needs to slap down Luca hard for violating a rule without any remorse or apology, with the same kind of righteous vengence dumped upon Mac (who was saying sorry at the time of punishment), and put Freddie back behind Massa--which the stewards lacked the gonads to do.

Otherwise, Luca, like any dictator bully, will go wild, running over any anything he wishes.

The only question is whether little Todt will be able able to go face to face with Luca.....somehow, I think this is part of why Luca is so in the face right now, becuase they actually had some fear of maX and his whip, fear that they have none of from their former employee

So what will the FIA do about this????

Strike down the rule to appease Luca????
but the rule was there so fans --and even arguably racers themselves---would not feel cheated by seeing a manipulated result, and would know that the one who won, deserved it by being in front based on merit and not some manipulation.....

Alternatives?? How about a ban on all radio communcications? after all, how did Clark, Moss, Stewart, Brabham et al, win so many many races without someone always whispering in their ear, push push, harder, try to concentrate, remember we are only two seconds ahead, come on, you can do it.....

Retro Formula 1

27th July 2010, 14:23

Both you and Dave have to try harder to convince me :p : I still think that what Ferrari did was exactly what other team have done for years (Ferrari included), so I really don't understand all this complaining and all these threads against Ferrari...but that's probably because I am a tifoso ;)

You know I respect your opinion and that I'm not one of these Ferrari "haters". I am a motorsport fan, pure and simple, and enjoy a friendly rivalry with supporters of other teams.

I don't want to see Ferrari thrown out and agree that other teams have used team orders. However, the whole reason the team orders business was brought in well known and Ferrari did exactly the same last weekend. It looks wrong and unfair. It's damaging for the sport and turns fans off.

The rule may be wrong but it IS a rule that must be seen to be adhered to. Other teams use team orders in a subtle way but only Ferrari decide to splash it over the front pages.

To be a Tifosi, you must also be a motorsport fan otherwise what are you supporting? What we saw on Sunday damages the sport.

johunn

27th July 2010, 14:36

As it damages the sport then please everyone that are not going to watch the next F1 race due to what happened last weekend please raise your hands... I suspect there are not many. And the argument that it is all right to do it at the end of the season. Well if you are against the rule then why make exceptions at the end of the season. By that time it's probably already too late. The best example is the proud joint second position of Lewis and Fernando when Kimi beat them by one point... now isn't that a stupid situation to be in as a team principal? Explain to the potential sponsors that our guys want to race that's why they haven't managed to win the championship. And the current issue arose only because Massa had a new contract and thought that there is no need to play the role that he was given prior to the race. Fernando was faster than Felipe the whole weekend and there is no point to argue about this. Whether he was fast enough to overtake is another question. I would personally rather bend the rules than look outright stupid (Red Bull drivers crashing into each other).

wedge

27th July 2010, 14:59

People didn't feel conned :confused:

IIRC Massa had some kind of mechanical issue which slowed him. Genuine or not? Who knows!

Because Massa was quite happy to do it that time round.

We've seen that if you're unhappy with the decision the driver realises its 'a team gain but take some pain' eg. Rubens in Austria 2002 and DC in Melbourne 1998 as Brundle alluded to the PR BS on the BBC F1 Forum.

markabilly

27th July 2010, 15:19

In any event, this is clearly a fan rule as skc says.........not a rule because the team bosses want it.

If the team bosses were to be hooked to lie detectors, notwithstanding Horner's BS public relations attempt at saying his drivers are free to race and all the other managers mouthing off, the results would be NOT ONE team boss would have a rule that even slightly hinders them from telling the drivers exactly what to do and when.

all team bosses want to be :vader:

ioan

27th July 2010, 18:04

What about 2006 US GP?

Massa was leading the first stint and let Schumi through after the first round of stops. Massa was quite happy to do it because the change of positions was unbrazen. There were little complaints IIRC

Was it as blatant as last Sunday?
Did Massa complain? Did Smedley complain? Did Todt run away like Domenicali?
Was it a slap in the face of all the fans?
Did they destroy their driver 1 year after he almost died in one of their cars?

You don't seem to grasp the deepness of what happened last Sunday.

Mia 01

27th July 2010, 18:13

I think it was because it was not so blatant and in your face, but here we have a driver who does not have the negative fan base of Freddie, CLEARLY being told to move over on the one year anniversary of his spring incident.

It really goes back to, if the violation is not so clear and your face, it is okay.

Given Luca's outburst, it is now even more blatant and in your face.

Luca is saying Luca-Ferrari will only obey a rule that Luca-ferrari finds acceptable and in the best interests of the team as they deem those interests to be.

Otherwise, screw you. So if Ferrari finds a way to open up an engine and fix /replace parts, in such a manner as to replace/repair the seals so that no one can at the FIA can detect the repairs or breaking of the seals, then if Luca deems it in the best interests of the team, then they will do it.

After all, it has always been the tradition of the Ferrari team for many many years, that when an engine needs fixing, they fix it..... :rolleyes:

Not even Ron Dennis would have been this much in the face as Luca has been.

So the FIA needs to slap down Luca hard for violating a rule without any remorse or apology, with the same kind of righteous vengence dumped upon Mac (who was saying sorry at the time of punishment), and put Freddie back behind Massa--which the stewards lacked the gonads to do.

Otherwise, Luca, like any dictator bully, will go wild, running over any anything he wishes.

The only question is whether little Todt will be able able to go face to face with Luca.....somehow, I think this is part of why Luca is so in the face right now, becuase they actually had some fear of maX and his whip, fear that they have none of from their former employee

So what will the FIA do about this????

Strike down the rule to appease Luca????
but the rule was there so fans --and even arguably racers themselves---would not feel cheated by seeing a manipulated result, and would know that the one who won, deserved it by being in front based on merit and not some manipulation.....

Alternatives?? How about a ban on all radio communcications? after all, how did Clark, Moss, Stewart, Brabham et al, win so many many races without someone always whispering in their ear, push push, harder, try to concentrate, remember we are only two seconds ahead, come on, you can do it.....

Agreed, he does not fear Jean.

Mia 01

27th July 2010, 18:26

Big Ben

27th July 2010, 19:20

Was it as blatant as last Sunday?
Did Massa complain? Did Smedley complain? Did Todt run away like Domenicali?
Was it a slap in the face of all the fans?
Did they destroy their driver 1 year after he almost died in one of their cars?

You don't seem to grasp the deepness of what happened last Sunday.

:laugh: This is your explanation? You´ve said before they should be punished for not hiding it well enough and now this? It wasn´t a breach of the rules because Massa didn´t complain and Todt didn´t run? I doubt Todt can run at all.

Perhaps I should explain you people that here in Romania we have a very sick saying. It´s something like this: the uncaught thief is just an honest business man. I think it´s quite clear Ioan is very fond of this saying.

It wasn´t a slap in the MS´ fanboy´s faces. That´s actually the only difference and that´s what makes your stance hypocritical

ioan

27th July 2010, 19:52

Agrees on everything except the first sentence. At the last lap Felipe slowed down to almost zero speed and let MS thrue, anyway, it was only four cars on the track, a farse.

???

The change took place during pit stops AFAIK.

ioan

27th July 2010, 19:53

:laugh: This is your explanation? You´ve said before they should be punished for not hiding it well enough and now this? It wasn´t a breach of the rules because Massa didn´t complain and Todt didn´t run? I doubt Todt can run at all.

Perhaps I should explain you people that here in Romania we have a very sick saying. It´s something like this: the uncaught thief is just an honest business man. I think it´s quite clear Ioan is very fond of this saying.

It wasn´t a slap in the MS´ fanboy´s faces. That´s actually the only difference and that´s what makes your stance hypocritical

There is one reason why I left your Romania 12 years ago, because that saying is true and applies to half of the population.
You can continue enjoying the saying and the people.

Mia 01

27th July 2010, 21:00

???

The change took place during pit stops AFAIK.

Could be wrong, but I remeber it differenly.

Mia 01

27th July 2010, 21:01

FA is proud of his win this weekend, no regrets.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85605

ioan

27th July 2010, 21:04

FA is proud of his win this weekend, no regrets.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85605

What were you expecting from such a monument of self-righteousness?!

christophulus

27th July 2010, 22:01

Wow, a fair few posts since I was last on :s

I'm still annoyed with what Ferrari did, two days on. If Alonso had passed fairly, or it'd stayed the other way round, I'd have been pleased. As it happens, I feel cheated. I don't care why Ferrari did it, it was wrong.

In summary, just let the drivers race! I wish the teams would remember that ultimately, F1 is for the fans. Not shareholders, not board members, fans. The fans who buy the merchandise, who the sponsors appeal to, who buy the race tickets. If they're annoyed, you're doing something wrong, regardless of what the rules say!

wedge

27th July 2010, 23:47

You don't seem to grasp the deepness of what happened last Sunday.

So what?

F1 is dangerous sport.

F1 has and should always be a cut throat sport. Ferrari kept his seat warm, they owed him that much.

Ferrari are there to win championships.

Massa has been the weaker driver at Ferrari, Alonso the better driver and therefore deserves to have the #1 status to fight for WDC

SilverArrows

28th July 2010, 00:07

I haven't seen anyone bring up Canada 2005 yet where Renault said to Alonso over the radio "You're faster than Fisi, overtake him". That was pretty much as blatant as what happened on Sunday and yet there was no investigation or fine plus a referral to the WMSC. What happened to Ferrari on Sunday just seems like a knee-jerk response to the media and fan reaction. What about the antics Red Bull and McLaren pulled in Turkey and Great Britain? They should do away with team order ban because it's impossible to police and it happens all the time, usually with good reason. Ferrari were foolish because they did so obviously.

What got me thinking was what would the press reaction have been if Ferrari had allowed Massa to win? Would they have been saying Ferrari were stupid to keep Alonso behind like they did after Australia this year?

CNR

28th July 2010, 00:10

just a what if
betting agents take action on Ferrari for racefixing
you may no longer be able to place a bet on them

Saint Devote

28th July 2010, 01:31

If the team orders rule had not been in place on Sunday would F1 fans have been any happier with what Massa was told to do?

I suspect this might be the beginning of the end for article 39.1 of the F1 sporting regulations, but the rule was introduced for a reason.

How does F1 balance the wish of the teams to run their teams as they see fit with the public's wish not to see manipulated or staged results?

The "public's wish"? Which public? Those whom the media have chosen to promote, such as people opposing team orders, which have been part of racing because it is a team's RIGHT - or those like myself who understand that a teams right is sacrosanct?

People who watch racing have no valid right to impose ANYTHIING on racing and holding the threat of "not watching" or that "fans may leave" is irrelevant.

It is encumbent upon any so-called fan to accept and love the traditions and mores of this sport. If they are dissatisfied then perhaps motor racong is just not for them. There will be others than take their place.

And if Massa is so upset and apprently so "principled" then why doesn't he leave? Oh thats right, he is a Ferrari driver - well then Felipe, shut up and drive and understand that you are no Alonso.

Massa - another Ferrari number 2 that is quite a legend in his own mind.

I say well done you - Luca D!

Tumbo

28th July 2010, 02:27

those like myself who understand that a teams right is sacrosanct?

It is encumbent upon any so-called fan to accept and love the traditions and mores of this sport. If they are dissatisfied then perhaps motor racong is just not for them. There will be others than take their place.

Perhaps you should change your name over to GOD devote since you make such sweeping statements as to what one MUST do and how absolutely correct your opinions are in every way, shape and form. Or alternatively you could possibly understand that there are a large percentage of ppl who are expressing an opinion different to yours and that possibly when it comes to what took place last weekend.

Since you seem to be so in love with Natural Justice let us just for a second take the current lot of rules out of the equation (since they are so 'unjust') and consider what occurred during the race where a driver was leading as a result of an on-track incident going into the first corner and managed to maintain that lead until a team order to pull over.

Now a lot seem to say were it not for Vettel then Alonso would have been leading not Massa - MOOT POINT, this is racing and when a racing incident occurs then you say probably should have fallen one way but ultimately it resulted in this (rather than say a team-mate crashing into the barricades to let you take your first win of the season......there a blatent action designed to manipulate the results).

In relation to the 'unjust' rule - interesting to see that in the 8yrs since this rule was put into place 2 things have occurred. Firstly, there haven't been any team-order controversies bar Piquet into the wall (which became apparent 12mths on) and the whole FA 'they're favouring the upstart' McLaren debacle in 2007. Secondly, as mentioned there have been actions taken on the track which has resulted in the end of race standings matching those sought by the team. In all of this there has been minimal outcry and no talk of 'an unjust rule'. The reason being that the letter of the law was followed by acting in a way which best met the intended spirit of the law. What happened on the weekend was akin to Austria 2002 in terms of breaking the spirit of way in which 'team orders' have been seen but went further as now thanks to that day 8yrs ago we have a rule in place.

Natural Justice principles would guide one to state that outside the regulations there is an expectation from the organising body, your fellow competitors and the viewing public that while there is an expectation that teams will act in their best interests they will not manipulate races in such a blatent and disgraceful manner.......cause seriously if FA was that much faster he should have been able to pass, and if he has the talent he claims to and which 2 WDCs point to he should be able to do so w/out bleeting on the radio. Even if the rule is 'unjust' (which is difficult to comprehend given what was previously mentioned about lack of prior complaints and the ways in which teams have successfully without controversy achieved their intended means) you have to look at the fact that Ferrari has signed up to the rule every yr that it has been in place. They never used their veto power in relation to this rule. They never sought for the ruling to be changed. They never put forward an amendment to the rule so that it's intended 'spirit' might be better achieved. As such they have acted in a way which shows they have been in support of this rule.

F1 is something which one signs up to, it is not an existing right to race, there is no natural law stating that one has an entry into this elite club. As such provided the rules do not impinge on any existing right they can outline whatever rulings - the main issue would be that there is fair application of all processes (well here Ferrari had the right to put their case to the Stewards, there will be a WMSC hearing and of course a finding will be handed down which will hopefully show fair and due process - including ACTUAL implimentation of process if they are found guilty) and that all teams have been held to the same standard (well McLaren were nailed to the wall over spygate, Renault were nailed to the wall over crashgate so it isn't as if other teams skirting the outside of the rules have gotten away scott-free).

It is probably best to finish off talking about Martin Luther King Jnr who probably summed it up best:

"I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law."

Well if Ferrari feel the law is unjust then how about they TAKE their penalty and show it so for that very reason? Other than having it changed retrospectively and getting away scott free.

Saint Devote

28th July 2010, 03:20

Does this mean you agree with the ruling, oppose Ferrari's right and pretend that in all the years of refueling there were no team orders using pit stops?

Let me refresh your memory - Catalunya 2009 where in similar circumstances Rubens was leading Jenson, however he did not maintain as quick a pace as did Jense.

Furl stop strategy for Jense was changed and Rubens lost the race. Where was the furore? Rubens after a usual Brazilian sulking - and aside from Moco I recall ALL the top Brazilians SULK - Rubens towed the line.

You may be happy with "ignorance is bliss" but anyone even still in short pants, understands what happens in f1.

The sooner the rule is abandoned, the sooner teams can be honest about what happens and the better, because the Brazilian sulkiness is rather tiresome as is the self-rigteous reaction from those who have no actual stake in what happens in a team.

Unjust rules and regulations should be ignored and broken - just because they are rules and regulations means nothing.

Well done to Ferrari for justly and courageously pursuing their own rational self-iinterest.

markabilly

28th July 2010, 03:20

Perhaps you should change your name over to GOD devote since you make such sweeping statements as to what one MUST do and how absolutely correct your opinions are in every way, shape and form. Or alternatively you could possibly understand that there are a large percentage of ppl who are expressing an opinion different to yours and that possibly when it comes to what took place last weekend.

Since you seem to be so in love with Natural Justice let us just for a second take the current lot of rules out of the equation (since they are so 'unjust') and consider what occurred during the race where a driver was leading as a result of an on-track incident going into the first corner and managed to maintain that lead until a team order to pull over.

Now a lot seem to say were it not for Vettel then Alonso would have been leading not Massa - MOOT POINT, this is racing and when a racing incident occurs then you say probably should have fallen one way but ultimately it resulted in this (rather than say a team-mate crashing into the barricades to let you take your first win of the season......there a blatent action designed to manipulate the results).

In relation to the 'unjust' rule - interesting to see that in the 8yrs since this rule was put into place 2 things have occurred. Firstly, there haven't been any team-order controversies bar Piquet into the wall (which became apparent 12mths on) and the whole FA 'they're favouring the upstart' McLaren debacle in 2007. Secondly, as mentioned there have been actions taken on the track which has resulted in the end of race standings matching those sought by the team. In all of this there has been minimal outcry and no talk of 'an unjust rule'. The reason being that the letter of the law was followed by acting in a way which best met the intended spirit of the law. What happened on the weekend was akin to Austria 2002 in terms of breaking the spirit of way in which 'team orders' have been seen but went further as now thanks to that day 8yrs ago we have a rule in place.

Natural Justice principles would guide one to state that outside the regulations there is an expectation from the organising body, your fellow competitors and the viewing public that while there is an expectation that teams will act in their best interests they will not manipulate races in such a blatent and disgraceful manner.......cause seriously if FA was that much faster he should have been able to pass, and if he has the talent he claims to and which 2 WDCs point to he should be able to do so w/out bleeting on the radio. Even if the rule is 'unjust' (which is difficult to comprehend given what was previously mentioned about lack of prior complaints and the ways in which teams have successfully without controversy achieved their intended means) you have to look at the fact that Ferrari has signed up to the rule every yr that it has been in place. They never used their veto power in relation to this rule. They never sought for the ruling to be changed. They never put forward an amendment to the rule so that it's intended 'spirit' might be better achieved. As such they have acted in a way which shows they have been in support of this rule.

F1 is something which one signs up to, it is not an existing right to race, there is no natural law stating that one has an entry into this elite club. As such provided the rules do not impinge on any existing right they can outline whatever rulings - the main issue would be that there is fair application of all processes (well here Ferrari had the right to put their case to the Stewards, there will be a WMSC hearing and of course a finding will be handed down which will hopefully show fair and due process - including ACTUAL implimentation of process if they are found guilty) and that all teams have been held to the same standard (well McLaren were nailed to the wall over spygate, Renault were nailed to the wall over crashgate so it isn't as if other teams skirting the outside of the rules have gotten away scott-free).

It is probably best to finish off talking about Martin Luther King Jnr who probably summed it up best:

"I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law."

Well if Ferrari feel the law is unjust then how about they TAKE their penalty and show it so for that very reason? Other than having it changed retrospectively and getting away scott free.

...amen

markabilly

28th July 2010, 03:39

Unjust rules and regulations should be ignored and broken - just because they are rules and regulations means nothing.

Well done to Ferrari for justly and courageously pursuing their own rational self-iinterest.
Yeah, like thieves in the night, no better than the acccusations they made against Ron Dennis, except unlike back then there was no evidence that Dennis ever encouraged or approved of this cheating, and certainly never put his stamp of outright approval on same.

This rule breaking, cheating was done with the outright arrogance of Luca, and when caught, realizing they had no alternative except to stop telling their obvious lies because nobody was beleiving their cheap lies, a day or so later, Luca is telling those who would disagree to shut up....and without remorse or an apology for being caught without any question or justification, a cheater and a liar.

Talk about cheap cheaters, as now Ferrari and Luca have clearly dethroned Mac and Ron Dennis along with Flavio and his crew from that label as of the year 2010, without question.

But I would not ban Ferrari, but i would ban the chief cheap cheater Luca :down: :down:

Pino, and the rest of you, if you had any respect for the rules to which Ferrari agreed to compete, you should start a petition demanding the same punishment eventually meted out to Ron Dennis and Flavio and Symonds, being banned from being involved with the F1 team, be given to Luca with immediate and extreme prejudice. :up:

Ferrari and their fans deserve better than to be left with supporting an admitted bunch of (1) liars and (2) cheap cheaters

same fate as given the CEO of BP is the same Luca deserves.

Saint Devote

28th July 2010, 03:51

What a kewte attempt at comedic writing.

You must be American given your shriek-out against the great company of BP.

Tumbo

28th July 2010, 04:09

Does this mean you agree with the ruling, oppose Ferrari's right and pretend that in all the years of refueling there were no team orders using pit stops?

You may be happy with "ignorance is bliss" but anyone even still in short pants, understands what happens in f1.

The sooner the rule is abandoned, the sooner teams can be honest about what happens and the better, because the Brazilian sulkiness is rather tiresome as is the self-rigteous reaction from those who have no actual stake in what happens in a team.

Unjust rules and regulations should be ignored and broken - just because they are rules and regulations means nothing.

Well done to Ferrari for justly and courageously pursuing their own rational self-iinterest.

Yet again you manage to put on your red blinkers and COMPLETELY miss the point of my post. The primary issue at hand here is not whether the rule is just or not (and moreso we have to look at the intention of the rule as to whether this is just rather than the narrow-minded there is no justification as to the prevention of team orders in any circumstance) but rather the issue at hand is whether Ferrari broke the rule. Well seems that you are advocating that they have? In fact you praise Ferrari for explicitly breaking this blanket ban on team orders and as such i'm expecting that you will be front of the line in terms of wanting them punished? For it is in accepting the punishment that they show themselves to truly respect the rule of law in F1.......but that isn't what you are advocating is it?

No instead what we see here are the double standards which have lead to such heated discussion. The rules are only of relevance when they help me to achieve my ultimate goal. When the team-order rule isn't affecting me but may potentially impact my competitors then it isn't a worry BUT when suddenly i'm in the spotlight then it is unjust. And as such I should get away with breaking them for I am merely showing the rule to be unfair and draconian so there shouldn't be a punishment for me.

Hypocrisy seems to be part and parcel of Ferrari in terms of how they operate (and it is interesting that you sprout about them wanting to win the WDC but when you look at their past history they care more about WHO wins them the WDC - missing wheel in '99 anyone???). End of the day if this rule really is as unjust as they claim it to be then there will be support from the other teams and moreso the regulating body will consider how best to address these issues. Even if this occurs using your own logic SD they have knowingly broken this rule and as such should feel the full weight of any penalty.......because hey end of the day we completely accept that they are in support of fair application of any rule against any offender regardless of which team might be in breech :rolleyes:

markabilly

28th July 2010, 04:13

How can anyone who is a "morally just" ferrari fan not be ashamed of what the big boss has done?????

Or who is just a fan of F1 like me, who has been watching the races since 1966????

It was simply cheating, they knew it was cheating, and they would have continued to cheat, but then they screwed up big time. And after they thought about it for a while, Luca figures out that this set of lies will not cut it, so he jumps up on his high pedestal and anounces he is morally right, citing traditions from the times there were no such rules....oh yeah right on.

Atleast flavio and dennis were not running off at the mouth trying to morally justify their cheating through some sort of self righteous profundities of some divine right originating with the creation of mankind and ferrari

Saint Devote

28th July 2010, 04:48

Yet again you manage to put on your red blinkers and COMPLETELY miss the point of my post. The primary issue at hand here is not whether the rule is just or not (and moreso we have to look at the intention of the rule as to whether this is just rather than the narrow-minded there is no justification as to the prevention of team orders in any circumstance) but rather the issue at hand is whether Ferrari broke the rule. Well seems that you are advocating that they have? In fact you praise Ferrari for explicitly breaking this blanket ban on team orders and as such i'm expecting that you will be front of the line in terms of wanting them punished? For it is in accepting the punishment that they show themselves to truly respect the rule of law in F1.......but that isn't what you are advocating is it?

No instead what we see here are the double standards which have lead to such heated discussion. The rules are only of relevance when they help me to achieve my ultimate goal. When the team-order rule isn't affecting me but may potentially impact my competitors then it isn't a worry BUT when suddenly i'm in the spotlight then it is unjust. And as such I should get away with breaking them for I am merely showing the rule to be unfair and draconian so there shouldn't be a punishment for me.

Hypocrisy seems to be part and parcel of Ferrari in terms of how they operate (and it is interesting that you sprout about them wanting to win the WDC but when you look at their past history they care more about WHO wins them the WDC - missing wheel in '99 anyone???). End of the day if this rule really is as unjust as they claim it to be then there will be support from the other teams and moreso the regulating body will consider how best to address these issues. Even if this occurs using your own logic SD they have knowingly broken this rule and as such should feel the full weight of any penalty.......because hey end of the day we completely accept that they are in support of fair application of any rule against any offender regardless of which team might be in breech :rolleyes:

They broke an unjust rule that goes completely against justice, the history of racing and the way Enzo Ferrari thought - that does not deserve punishment, it deserves applause and praise for the strong leadership of Luca de Montezemolo.

Saint Devote

28th July 2010, 04:52

markabilly

28th July 2010, 05:13

Just like me :-]]

Like hell, not even close

Roamy

28th July 2010, 05:35

Say YEA to Tumbo !!!

Valve Bounce

28th July 2010, 06:54

Perhaps you should change your name over to GOD devote since you make such sweeping statements as to what one MUST do and how absolutely correct your opinions are in every way, ............

And why not? The Grate Man has spoken.

Valve Bounce

28th July 2010, 07:38

This is like bashing our heads against a brick wall because no matter how often we say it you just don't take any notice. Team orders always have been part of F1 and always will, but they are banned. Teams execute team orders in subtle ways like through pitstops. Nobody is denying that, nobody is denying that, nobody is denying that, nobody is denying that.

What has annoyed people is the blatancy and the fact some members of Ferrari are claiming it never happened and some are saying yeah we did it so what?

If Ferrari are silly enough to do it in an obvious way and then have the we are bigger than the sport attitude, then they will surely be man enough to take a severe punishment should it be dished.

You know what. There is something good about bashing your head against a brick wall. It feels better when you stop. :p : :D :rotflmao:

Dave B

28th July 2010, 07:52

The speed limit on my road sucks so in a few minutes I'll break it... Hell, the kids are off school. If I get pulled over I'll claim it's an unjust rule. Come and visit me, won't you?

truefan72

28th July 2010, 08:41

Dave just a question for you...what's the difference between what happent on Sunday and what happent in Hockenheim in 2008 between Lewis and Kovalainen ?

kovaleinen was not leading the race after a brilliant start and the macs where not outpacing all the other cars by a mile. Hamilton did not get on the radio and bemoan the fact that kovaleinen was leading the race and he could not pass him. Actually Hamilton was a good .500 seconds faster than kovy or anyone else that race and caught up with him at an incredible rate. He would have passed him anyway as he proved so by dispatching massa next then piquet jr for the race lead. Kovy did not follow suit and held station unable to emulate hamilton.

The difference my good sir is that probably no one told kovy to move over and he understood like many in is place that is teammate was so much faster than him that it would be pointless trying to hold him up. He would have been passed anyway fair and square.

there is a huge difference in that situation to what occurred this past sunday. apples to oranges i say ;)