Mosque being built near Ground Zero?

[gloomyDAY]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10127563.stm

No thanks! Stirring the emotions of 9/11 victim's families is not fair play.

Unless you want trouble, then build it somewhere else.

[Rollo]

Can I make a distinction here?

"Muslims" did not cause 9/11 - murderers did.

Although I really hate Islam and a lot of the teachings of the Quran, it doesn't mean that people don't have the right to believe anything they wish.

Furthermore, the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution says that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Provided the people set up the Mosque within the civil confines of the law, then really no-one can stop them.

[anthonyvop]

Can I make a distinction here?

"Muslims" did not cause 9/11 - murderers did.



No....Muslims did commit the 9/11 atrocities. They were Muslims and they did in because they were Muslim.

[gloomyDAY]

Can I make a distinction here?

"Muslims" did not cause 9/11 - murderers did.

Although I really hate Islam and a lot of the teachings of the Quran, it doesn't mean that people don't have the right to believe anything they wish.

Furthermore, the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution says that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Provided the people set up the Mosque within the civil confines of the law, then really no-one can stop them.Are you sure about that buddy? This is like rubbing salt in fresh wounds.

Seems highly inappropriate to build a Mosque where the teachings of the Koran lead to 2750 deaths.
Those "murderers" were Muslim and they committed that act against America because of Islam.

[Easy Drifter]

The perpretrators were Islamists and yes Muslims.
But the vast majority of Muslims want no part of the fanatical Islamists.
I do agree that building a Mosque there is not very smart though for PR reasons.

[Rollo]

Are you sure about that buddy? This is like rubbing salt in fresh wounds.

Big woop.

Texas v. Johnson (1989)
"if there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea offensive or disagreeable."
Justice William J. Brennan, Jr.

I understand the concern and the upset. But as I previously posted, I think it's more important to examine the issues of militancy, fanaticism, brainwashing, delusion etc.

I don't particularly like seeing lads mags next to the newspaper at newsstands, but do I have any right to make newsstands remove them? Of course not.

We don't have a human right not to be offended.

On the other side of the street from the Mosque should sit a gay bar, and next door a cartoonist building crowned by a picture of the "prophet' Muhammad...

[Eki]

No....Muslims did commit the 9/11 atrocities. They were Muslims and they did in because they were Muslim.
No, they did it because of what the US has been doing in the Middle East.

[Eki]

Are you sure about that buddy? This is like rubbing salt in fresh wounds.

Seems highly inappropriate to build a Mosque where the teachings of the Koran lead to 2750 deaths.
Those "murderers" were Muslim and they committed that act against America because of Islam.
Quran and teachings of Islam don't even mention America.

[MrJan]

No....Muslims did commit the 9/11 atrocities. They were Muslims and they did in because they were Muslim.

NO. They did it because they were idiot Muslims, the same as there are many idiot Christians and idiot Jews. You can't blame a whole religion just because some tosser interpreted a book in a stupid way.

[markabilly]

Big woop.

Texas v. Johnson (1989)
"if there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea offensive or disagreeable."
Justice William J. Brennan, Jr.

I understand the concern and the upset. But as I previously posted, I think it's more important to examine the issues of militancy, fanaticism, brainwashing, delusion etc.

I don't particularly like seeing lads mags next to the newspaper at newsstands, but do I have any right to make newsstands remove them? Of course not.

We don't have a human right not to be offended.

On the other side of the street from the Mosque should sit a gay bar, and next door a cartoonist building crowned by a picture of the "prophet' Muhammad...
I agree. Paise be to the prophet pedo

We should all be like the "good Germans" in the 1930's, who welcomed the nazis to do whatever they want....there were plenty of SS oficers who never shot one jew, russian and so on, so we should not condemn all nazis, and if they want to build memorials to Hitler right next to concentration camps, "We don't have a human right not to offended"....whatever that means

btw, brennan was an old liberal fool, whose droppings on the american flag and other of his rulings should be dumped, and he lucked out with his 5-4 decisions where the cowardly kennedy would concur :down:
by Brennan's own logic, laws outlawing "hate crimes" are also unconstitutional, because of crimes are a form of political expression...

(okay, now eki can start arguing about how/ why jews are in Isreal, etc..)

[GridGirl]

I suppose its an unsensitive place to put a Mosque but I dont see any other legitimate reason's why a mosque shouldn't be built near there. If someone wants to build a mosque I can only assume there are enough muslim people who would want to worship there to warrant the cost and hassle of trying to build one in that particular area.

Just becuase a small number of whacko muslims committed a terrorist attatck doesn't mean you have to condem an entire faith! The normal law abiding muslims of the world must far outnumber the nutcases. It's just a shame that the nutcases get all the attention.

[Eki]

The normal law abiding muslims of the world must far outnumber the nutcases. It's just a shame that the nutcases get all the attention.
True. There are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. Think if they were all nutcases and suicide bombers. We wouldn't be sitting here.

[gloomyDAY]

We don't have a human right not to be offended.I guess that's why Muslim protesters were allowed to chant slogans against dead UK soldiers along Wootton Bassett. Oh, wait. They (Islam4UK) were barred from doing so because many soldier's family members found that to be offensive. :dozey:


True. There are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. Think if they were all nutcases and suicide bombers. We wouldn't be sitting here.
Speak for yourself. I don't care how much they have in numbers.
I'll still defend myself, just as should the victim's family members, from hostilities.

[Eki]

Speak for yourself. I don't care how much they have in numbers.
I'll still defend myself, just as should the victim's family members, from hostilities.
Sitting at your computer?

[fandango]

It's clear that apart from the people who died, the image of Islam suffered greatly as a result of the 9/11 attacks. So in that sense I can understand why Muslims would have an interest in trying to disassociate the Muslim religion from the 2001 terrorist attacks, which is the reason they want to build this Islamic centre, and build it in that place.

However, it seems to me that building it at or near Ground Zero in NYC will actually achieve quite the opposite effect, and tie the two ideas together more strongly.

So putting aside the wishes and feelings of the victims' relatives for a moment, I think the whole thing is a bad idea.

[gloomyDAY]

It's clear that apart from the people who died, the image of Islam suffered greatly as a result of the 9/11 attacks. So in that sense I can understand why Muslims would have an interest in trying to disassociate the Muslim religion from the 2001 terrorist attacks, which is the reason they want to build this Islamic centre, and build it in that place.

However, it seems to me that building it at or near Ground Zero in NYC will actually achieve quite the opposite effect, and tie the two ideas together more strongly.

So putting aside the wishes and feelings of the victims' relatives for a moment, I think the whole thing is a bad idea.Gracias amigo. Bien dicho.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.


Sitting at your computer?Let's not go there Eki. I'm doing my part for America.

[Eki]

Let's not go there Eki. I'm doing my part for America.
I said "We wouldn't be sitting here". You said you would.

[Rollo]

I guess that's why Muslim protesters were allowed to chant slogans against dead UK soldiers along Wootton Bassett. Oh, wait. They (Islam4UK) were barred from doing so because many soldier's family members found that to be offensive. :dozey:

No.

Specifically they were declared terrorists under the Terrorism Act 2000 :
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100034_en_1

[GridGirl]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10127563.stm

No thanks! Stirring the emotions of 9/11 victim's families is not fair play.
Unless you want trouble, then build it somewhere else.

GloomyDay, your initial post pointed to you not wanting to build a mosque near ground zero. But the tone of your other posts kind of makes me think you'd be against building a mosque anywhere. Would you be bothered if a mosque was to be build in your town, city neighbourhood or where ever you live?

[gloomyDAY]

GloomyDay, your initial post pointed to you not wanting to build a mosque near ground zero. But the tone of your other posts kind of makes me think you'd be against building a mosque anywhere. Would you be bothered if a mosque was to be build in your town, city neighbourhood or where ever you live?Not at all. I live in a city named Tustin and if you Google my city you'll see that there are many mosques in my vicinity. I'm not afraid of Muslims or care about their religion either, but I feel the same when it comes to other religions as well.

The problem I have with a mosque being built near Ground Zero is that the victim's families have to swallow a bitter pill. This is like a slap in the face to the 2750 people that died on 9/11 and I for one won't stand for such an insult.


No.

Specifically they were declared terrorists under the Terrorism Act 2000 :
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2010/uksi_20100034_en_1What a cop out!

First there is a debate about whether or not Muslims should be allowed to protest on Wootten Bassett. Then, the UK government decides to wave the magic "terrorist wand" and now Muslims are not allowed to protest. I'm not sure why it's right for your country to protect the soldier's families from being slandered by Muslims, but it is not right for people to be against a mosque being built a hop-skip-jump from Ground Zero.


I said "We wouldn't be sitting here". You said you would.Oh, I misread your statement.

You're right. We wouldn't be sitting around.....

[Rollo]

First there is a debate about whether or not Muslims should be allowed to protest on Wootten Bassett. Then, the UK government decides to wave the magic "terrorist wand" and now Muslims are not allowed to protest.

No. Islam4UK was one of the branches of the Al Muhajiroun, one of their leaders Omar Bakri Mohammed was banned from the UK back in 2005.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4144792.stm
The self-styled "sheikh" ran the radical al-Muhajiroun group from Tottenham, north London, until it was disbanded last year.
He is famous for praising the 9/11 hijackers as the "magnificent 19".

The group rebranded itself mid-2009, and so the UK government didn't just wave the magic "terrorist wand" and stop all Muslims from protesting, but made a specific ban against a specific group of people.

There is a distinct difference between Muslims generally and terrorists, quite clearly you have failed to grasp this.

[markabilly]

There is a distinct difference between Muslims generally and terrorists, quite clearly you have failed to grasp this.
You fail to grasp that this is a religion that is more oppressive than most, that preaches death to non-believers, glorifies suicide, tolerates and still practices child abuse directly based on its religous precepts, treats women as chattel, second class, with no rights and arranged marriages with multiple wives, and forcefully discriminates based on religion and sex

The only difference is that many are very passive....but those extremists, as you call them are not extremists, but merely practicing the middle of the road religous concepts that others have been too lazy to practicise.....just like "the good germans" who were to passive to act on the beleifs of nazism....

Indeed, it preaches the same bigotry and justifies death to people, based solely on religous grounds, rather than if one is Jewish or aryan race (hahaha--as i think there is no longer a jewish 'race" if there ever was one), as the reilgion of nazism.

Once you understand that, then you will understand the problem, but until then, this
distinct difference between Muslims generally and terrorists, quite clearly you have failed to grasp is one of which some day you may well find yourself or someone you know and love dearly, falling victim to, due to your and others' failure to grasp.

[Rollo]

You fail to grasp that this is a religion that is more oppressive than most

Do I? Really? Wow. I must have misunderstood what I wrote.

I believe that this was my opening post:

Although I really hate Islam and a lot of the teachings of the Quran, it doesn't mean that people don't have the right to believe anything they wish.

Furthermore, the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution says that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Provided the people set up the Mosque within the civil confines of the law, then really no-one can stop them.

Comment?

[gloomyDAY]

There is a distinct difference between Muslims generally and terrorists, quite clearly you have failed to grasp this.I've never said that all Muslims are terrorists.

My point is that a mosque should not be built near Ground Zero because it is a slap in the face to the victim's families and Americans. You haven't wrapped your head around that point, have you? Maybe if a terror attack of such a scale were perpetrated in the UK you would think differently.

I'm writing a letter to my Congressman tomorrow morning.
I don't want a mosque near Ground Zero. No thanks, go away.

[markabilly]

Do I? Really? Wow. I must have misunderstood what I wrote.

I believe that this was my opening post:


Comment?
perhaps I did. But my point remains, one should not dismiss this religion, anymore than the "good germans" should have dismissed nazism.

It is a religion that preaches violence, sex and child abuse and oppression of others based on their sex and their religion as one of its basic beliefs-- along with the other things I mention, and not concepts of peace and brotherhood of other religions.

Christainity and other major religions do not preach this oppression nor violence, although as eki will jump backward through his backside to say, oh yeah but you do not practice what you preach....

be that as it may, we are better to preach peace love and equality and fail to live up to those standards, then to preach violence and oppression and then succeed in living down to those standards.

I do not "hate this religion" I am just disgusted with its principles, and alramed at the nonchalance attitude of others towards it...

[Roamy]

I for one like the idea - just keep rubbing it in our faces. Keep in mind that the Muslim religion could be declared something other than a religion. Keep pushing the pendulum.

[Langdale Forest]

Building a mosque near ground zero would not be a good idea because muslims caused the 9-11 attacks, and there should be no reminder of the people who caused the attacks in New York.

[Eki]

Building a mosque near ground zero would not be a good idea because muslims caused the 9-11 attacks, and there should be no reminder of the people who caused the attacks in New York.

If they had been christians, would it be OK to build a church there?

[Langdale Forest]

you mean if christans blew up twin towers?

[Eki]

you mean if christans blew up twin towers?

Yes.

[fandango]

If they had been christians, would it be OK to build a church there?

Ok Eki, please don't hijack this thread and fly it into your singular tower of "What the US did to the world". I'm not saying I disagree with you, but let's not always have the same discussion going on here.

If anyone reads the article linked to in post #1 (and I suspect some haven't), they'll see that the idea being proposed here is to build a place where people will better understand that Islam is not about killing people.

Now, whether you agree with that idea or not (and there are some freakily wildly different opinions) anyone can see that putting an Islamic centre whose objective is to disassociate Islam from 9/11 RIGHT BESIDE ground zero is simply not going to work. What anyone thinks of Muslims is not relevant here. It's like trying to get National Socialism going again in Auswitz, or trying to promote safe sex in the Vatican. It's just not a good idea.

[Eki]

Ok Eki, please don't hijack this thread and fly it into your singular tower of "What the US did to the world".
OK, but I think it's stupid to associate 9/11 attacks with Muslims. About as stupid as associating the Oklahoma bombing with Catholics, Republicans and the National Rifle Association, because Timothy McVeigh was a Catholic, a Republican and a member of NRA. I know there are a lot of nutters in those groups, but even I don't believe all Catholics, Republicans and NRA members are bad and evil people.

[Helicon_One]

OK, but I think it's stupid to associate 9/11 attacks with Muslims. About as stupid as associating the Oklahoma bombing with Catholics, Republicans and the National Rifle Association, because Timothy McVeigh was a Catholic, a Republican and a member of NRA. I know there are a lot of nutters in those groups, but even I don't believe all Catholics, Republicans and NRA members are bad and evil people.

OP: would it be similarly 'offensive' and 'stirring up emotions' to build a catholic church or set up an NRA office in Oklahoma City near the former site of the Alfred Murrah building? Would it be 'rubbing salt in fresh wounds' to build a church near an bombed or burned-out abortion clinic?

If not, why not?

[race aficionado]

[quote="gloomyDAY"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10127563.stm

As an inhabitant of the city of NY, I welcome this new place of prayer and culture into our island.


:s mokin:

[Eki]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10127563.stm

As an inhabitant of the city of NY, I welcome this new place of prayer and culture into our island.


:s mokin:
Race can differentiate between individuals and groups :up:

[airshifter]

From the article...

"What better place to show that we, as Muslims, condemn the acts of 9/11 than making this stand and making this statement here. When we say it here, we will be heard."



Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are churches in every country I can think of that was "graced" by the Crusades. As for those claiming that Islam teaches any vast number of great evils by western thinkings, if you had actually read the Qu'ran and the Bible(s) in context, you would find that they teach similar intolerance, hatred, and abuses of others... IF taken out of context. Taken in context none is teaching any more ill will towards others than the other religions do.

For an extremists group of Muslims to identify themselves so close to the WTC site would do nothing but draw more attention to them... the last thing they would want in New York if they had any ill intentions.

[Eki]

From the article...

"What better place to show that we, as Muslims, condemn the acts of 9/11 than making this stand and making this statement here. When we say it here, we will be heard."



Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are churches in every country I can think of that was "graced" by the Crusades. As for those claiming that Islam teaches any vast number of great evils by western thinkings, if you had actually read the Qu'ran and the Bible(s) in context, you would find that they teach similar intolerance, hatred, and abuses of others... IF taken out of context. Taken in context none is teaching any more ill will towards others than the other religions do.

For an extremists group of Muslims to identify themselves so close to the WTC site would do nothing but draw more attention to them... the last thing they would want in New York if they had any ill intentions.
Yes. It's like Russian Presidents Putin and Medvedev have brought flowers on the grave of Finnish war heroes who died fighting against the Soviets 1939-1944. Us Finns don't consider that as mockery but as a sign of good will.

[Jag_Warrior]

From the article...

"What better place to show that we, as Muslims, condemn the acts of 9/11 than making this stand and making this statement here. When we say it here, we will be heard."



Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are churches in every country I can think of that was "graced" by the Crusades. As for those claiming that Islam teaches any vast number of great evils by western thinkings, if you had actually read the Qu'ran and the Bible(s) in context, you would find that they teach similar intolerance, hatred, and abuses of others... IF taken out of context. Taken in context none is teaching any more ill will towards others than the other religions do.

For an extremists group of Muslims to identify themselves so close to the WTC site would do nothing but draw more attention to them... the last thing they would want in New York if they had any ill intentions.

Excellent, thoughtful post. :up:

[Roamy]

this is a crock. Why do we except Muslim religion - we should declare it a doctrine against our constitution. Lets just have the freaking war now why wait. Christ Hugo Chavez wants Christians to kill Christians and you TIRES just want to surround yourselves will all the sh!t in hopes they are too confused to figure out who to kill. Everyone wants to kill the jews except us. The whole world is a cesspool and what are we really trying to save. F1. The Priests screw our children because some idiot says they can't have any pussy. We have no leaders who are worth a sh!t. Our governments rob us blind at every turn. So lets reduce the carbon footprint.

[ShiftingGears]

From the article...

"What better place to show that we, as Muslims, condemn the acts of 9/11 than making this stand and making this statement here. When we say it here, we will be heard."



Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are churches in every country I can think of that was "graced" by the Crusades. As for those claiming that Islam teaches any vast number of great evils by western thinkings, if you had actually read the Qu'ran and the Bible(s) in context, you would find that they teach similar intolerance, hatred, and abuses of others... IF taken out of context. Taken in context none is teaching any more ill will towards others than the other religions do.

For an extremists group of Muslims to identify themselves so close to the WTC site would do nothing but draw more attention to them... the last thing they would want in New York if they had any ill intentions.

:up:

[markabilly]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are churches in every country I can think of that was "graced" by the Crusades. As for those claiming that Islam teaches any vast number of great evils by western thinkings, if you had actually read the Qu'ran and the Bible(s) in context, you would find that they teach similar intolerance, hatred, and abuses of others... IF taken out of context. Taken in context none is teaching any more ill will towards others than the other religions do.

.

:rolleyes:
And you are so very very wrong, so i will correct you.

The good prophet was a pedophile--who liked his wives young and as an old fart, had his last bride contracted to him at the mature age of 6 and bedded her when she was nine, and when she came to him, she brought her dolls...... :down:

and he was not one for turning the other cheek and laid the religious groundwork for the suicide bombings and murdering of cartoonists and so on as they happen in today's age. That is where your ignorance shows and such thinking is dangerous.

The fact is while hypocrisy abounds with other religions, the one thing the moslem faithful (including the so-called "extremist") do, is to practice what is preached in their religion.....

[airshifter]

:rolleyes:
And you are so very very wrong, so i will correct you.

The good prophet was a pedophile--who liked his wives young and as an old fart, had his last bride contracted to him at the mature age of 6 and bedded her when she was nine, and when she came to him, she brought her dolls...... :down:

and he was not one for turning the other cheek and laid the religious groundwork for the suicide bombings and murdering of cartoonists and so on as they happen in today's age. That is where your ignorance shows and such thinking is dangerous.

The fact is while hypocrisy abounds with other religions, the one thing the moslem faithful (including the so-called "extremist") do, is to practice what is preached in their religion.....


Don't talk crap, quote the verses that apply. As a person that has looked at the ups and downs of several religions, I guarantee you that I can show you the same evils in teachings of another religion.

And what country is it that has no churches?

If you want to claim someone ignorant, quit hiding behind your stereotypes and debate a point. I don't think it takes much to figure out how narrow your view of Islam is.

[Jag_Warrior]

this is a crock. Why do we except Muslim religion - we should declare it a doctrine against our constitution. Lets just have the freaking war now why wait.

How would this war against Islam be conducted? And what would we do with the ones in this country who are Muslims? Maybe nuclear weapons dropped on any country that has more than a 50% Muslim population. And here we could just put them in camps and either "re-educate" them... or maybe just gas them. I hear Zyklon-B is pretty effective.

I'm not really for or against any particular religion or sect, though I do have my own beliefs. But it's really ridiculous to talk about the Constitution in one breath and then suggesting that the U.S. declare a war against a religion (of over 1 billion people) in the next.

[Helicon_One]

this is a crock. Why do we except Muslim religion - we should declare it a doctrine against our constitution.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-passionate-defender-of-what-he-imagines-c,2849/

[markabilly]

Don't talk crap, quote the verses that apply. As a person that has looked at the ups and downs of several religions, I guarantee you that I can show you the same evils in teachings of another religion.

And what country is it that has no churches?

If you want to claim someone ignorant, quit hiding behind your stereotypes and debate a point. I don't think it takes much to figure out how narrow your view of Islam is.
since you feel so obligated to defend them, why don't you "prove me wrong"?

frankly in the 1930's you would have made a good Chamberlain or a Lindberg......not a churchill

OTOH, my view is very narrow and pointed right at the heart of islam.


I myself, am not a "religious man", and view religions such as Islam, nazism, communism, and that practiced by the catholic church in the middle ages, as deceitful, hypocritical methods of controlling people for the purposes foreign to these alleged religious principles through the practice of preaching hatred, bigotry and intolerance--and killling anyone who would disagree with them.

Mainstream Islamic law does not distinguish between "matters of church" and "matters of state"; the ulema or ulama is the religous leaders who control the court system and ultimately the government----Iran and its current practices are keeping with these practices.

Religious freedom therefore is only limited tolerance of outsiders or infidels who really have no function in the islamic state. s
Should i go further?

Muhammad is viewed as the last and the greatest in a series of prophets —as the man closest to perfection, the possessor of all virtues, whose path was to be followed by the devout, a man who married and had sex with children among his 13 wives and concubines....

as to more details of that path, here is a little light reading for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

[Eki]

since you feel so obligated to defend them, why don't you "prove me wrong"?

frankly in the 1930's you would have made a good Chamberlain or a Lindberg......not a churchill

OTOH, my view is very narrow and pointed right at the heart of islam.


I myself, am not a "religious man", and view religions such as Islam, nazism, communism, and that practiced by the catholic church in the middle ages, as deceitful, hypocritical methods of controlling people for the purposes foreign to these alleged religious principles through the practice of preaching hatred, bigotry and intolerance--and killling anyone who would disagree with them.

Mainstream Islamic law does not distinguish between "matters of church" and "matters of state"; the ulema or ulama is the religous leaders who control the court system and ultimately the government----Iran and its current practices are keeping with these practices.

Religious freedom therefore is only limited tolerance of outsiders or infidels who really have no function in the islamic state. s
Should i go further?

Muhammad is viewed as the last and the greatest in a series of prophets —as the man closest to perfection, the possessor of all virtues, whose path was to be followed by the devout, a man who married and had sex with children among his 13 wives and concubines....

as to more details of that path, here is a little light reading for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
Is Judaism any better? Did you for example know that there's a death penalty for Sabbath violations. And nobody really knows what is a Sabbath violation, so the death penalty is totally random:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah


Shabbos laws: With the severity of Sabbath violation, namely the death penalty, one would assume that direction would be provided as to how exactly such a serious and core commandment should be upheld. However, there is little to no information as to what can and cannot be performed on the Sabbath. Without the oral tradition, keeping this law would be impossible.

[anthonyvop]

Is Judaism any better? Did you for example know that there's a death penalty for Sabbath violations. And nobody really knows what is a Sabbath violation, so the death penalty is totally random:



OK Eky,

Name me a case, in recent history, of the death penalty being applied for Sabbath violations.

[markabilly]

Is Judaism any better? Did you for example know that there's a death penalty for Sabbath violations. And nobody really knows what is a Sabbath violation, so the death penalty is totally random:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
Sounds good........never liked working on Saturday anyway :up:

[Rani]

Is Judaism any better?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah

Muslim population around the world: 1.82 billion (about one in every five people around the globe).

Muslim Nobel prize winners: 6

Jewish population around the world: 12- 18 million (about one in five hundred).

Jewish Nobel prize winners: 163. Of these 9 are from Israel (which means Israelis have won 150% more Nobel prizes than all the muslims around the world, although the modern state of Israel is younger than the Islamic religion by 1316 years). By the way only 4 Nobels have been given to finns.

I'd say Jews have contributed quite a bit to the progression of human kind, especially when you consider their scant numbers. By this I don't mean to take anything away from other cultures and religions such as ancient egyptians who developed algebra and babylonians (ancient Iraqis) who also discovered a lot in the field of mathematics.

[Rani]

Is Judaism any better? Did you for example know that there's a death penalty for Sabbath violations. And nobody really knows what is a Sabbath violation, so the death penalty is totally random:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
I have been violating Shabat for about two and a half decades now and they treat me pretty well here :D .

[Eki]

I have been violating Shabat for about two and a half decades now and they treat me pretty well here :D .
Many people play the lottery every week and never win the jackpot. Some do win. Just wait.

[Rani]

Many people play the lottery every week and never win the jackpot. Some do win. Just wait.
Ah, I get it! you were being cynical. good one!

[anthonyvop]

Many people play the lottery every week and never win the jackpot. Some do win. Just wait.

Answer the question.......name me a case.

[gloomyDAY]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-passionate-defender-of-what-he-imagines-c,2849/ :laugh:

[Bob Riebe]

OK Eky,

Name me a case, in recent history, of the death penalty being applied for Sabbath violations.
Tony:
Eki rationalizes, then uses the basic defense of those who have no defense for their rhetoric, " oh yeah, well what if...."

It is the basic cry from little ones of: why-why-why-why....

[airshifter]

since you feel so obligated to defend them, why don't you "prove me wrong"?

frankly in the 1930's you would have made a good Chamberlain or a Lindberg......not a churchill

OTOH, my view is very narrow and pointed right at the heart of islam.


I myself, am not a "religious man", and view religions such as Islam, nazism, communism, and that practiced by the catholic church in the middle ages, as deceitful, hypocritical methods of controlling people for the purposes foreign to these alleged religious principles through the practice of preaching hatred, bigotry and intolerance--and killling anyone who would disagree with them.

Mainstream Islamic law does not distinguish between "matters of church" and "matters of state"; the ulema or ulama is the religous leaders who control the court system and ultimately the government----Iran and its current practices are keeping with these practices.

Religious freedom therefore is only limited tolerance of outsiders or infidels who really have no function in the islamic state. s
Should i go further?

Muhammad is viewed as the last and the greatest in a series of prophets —as the man closest to perfection, the possessor of all virtues, whose path was to be followed by the devout, a man who married and had sex with children among his 13 wives and concubines....

as to more details of that path, here is a little light reading for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

You're two for two.

Another long winded dodge of the actual questions posed, once again attempting to claim you have the answers that nobody else is aware of.

Both your posts are nothing other than your anti Muslim rants that don't address at all my questions, but somehow you claim to be answering them.

As for proving you wrong, I've personally seen a number of Christian churches in Muslim majority nations, existing by the free will of those nations and the people in them. It seems that they have forgiven the Crusades and once again (as in the days of the Crusades) allowed others their freedom of religious choice.


Thanks for openly admitting to your narrow view of Islam. I'm sure nobody would have figured that out for themselves. :laugh:

[Camelopard]

......
as to more details of that path, here is a little light reading for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad


To quote a well known poster on this forum from south florida, anyone that uses wikipedia as a source can't be be regarded as being creditable..........

Just as an aside, I personaly don't think they should be building a mosque on that site, but hey who cares what I think.... :)

[Camelopard]

The good prophet was a pedophile--


Sounds like he would have been right at home as a priest in the Roman Catholic Church.............. :)

[markabilly]

To quote a well known poster on this forum from south florida, anyone that uses wikipedia as a source can't be be regarded as being creditable..........

Just as an aside, I personaly don't think they should be building a mosque on that site, but hey who cares what I think.... :)
wiki is generally a great read for those who are completely ignorant on a particular subject, hence the offer to that particular poster who is either too lazy or lacking in knowledge to offer anything.......

[anthonyvop]

wiki is generally a great read for those who are completely ignorant on a particular subject, hence the offer to that particular poster who is either too lazy or lacking in knowledge to offer anything.......

So it is perfect for you!

[markabilly]

So it is perfect for you!
to make as an offer to the ignorant who is either too lazy or lacking in knowledge.......

indeed, a perfect starting place for you and shifter

[Tazio]

since you feel so obligated to defend them, why don't you "prove me wrong"?

frankly in the 1930's you would have made a good Chamberlain or a Lindberg......not a churchill

OTOH, my view is very narrow and pointed right at the heart of islam.


I myself, am not a "religious man", and view religions such as Islam, nazism, communism, and that practiced by the catholic church in the middle ages, as deceitful, hypocritical methods of controlling people for the purposes foreign to these alleged religious principles through the practice of preaching hatred, bigotry and intolerance--and killling anyone who would disagree with them.

Mainstream Islamic law does not distinguish between "matters of church" and "matters of state"; the ulema or ulama is the religous leaders who control the court system and ultimately the government----Iran and its current practices are keeping with these practices.

Religious freedom therefore is only limited tolerance of outsiders or infidels who really have no function in the islamic state. s
Should i go further?

Muhammad is viewed as the last and the greatest in a series of prophets —as the man closest to perfection, the possessor of all virtues, whose path was to be followed by the devout, a man who married and had sex with children among his 13 wives and concubines....

as to more details of that path, here is a little light reading for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
The emperor Caesar Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus Augustus "Constantine 1” gave legitimacy. (Actually it was a predecessor Galerius!
Constantine amended this proclamation by adding that Christians could own land,) to Christianity because of the "vision"(of a cross in the sky) he had the night a before a battle against forces that out-numbered him.
He had his wife and eldest son put to death out of paranoia, and or by the recommendation of his mother.

May 21 is the date the Greek Orthodox Church celebrates his sainthood :eek:

[markabilly]

The emperor Caesar Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus Augustus "Constantine 1” gave legitimacy. (Actually it was a predecessor Galerius!
Constantine amended this proclamation by adding that Christians could own land,) to Christianity because of the "vision"(of a cross in the sky) he had the night a before a battle against forces that out-numbered him.
He had his wife and eldest son put to death out of paranoia, and or by the recommendation of his mother.

May 21 is the date the Greek Orthodox Church celebrates his sainthood :eek:

Yep, more reasons why i am not a "religious" man in terms of organized religions, and an another example of the complete lack of wisdom of man....



but at least the greek orthodoxes are not running around chopping up cartoonists and flying planes full of people and children into a building while praising god and the prophet pedo


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[Eki]

It is the basic cry from little ones of: why-why-why-why....
And Bob who doesn't know the answers replies as usual: "Because I say so". Similarly in foreign politics he doesn't want to know the real reasons, he's just satisfied with the answer: "Because the US says so".

[anthonyvop]

And Bob who doesn't know the answers replies as usual: "Because I say so". Similarly in foreign politics he doesn't want to know the real reasons, he's just satisfied with the answer: "Because the US says so".

Eki,

I am still waiting for you to show me examples, in modern time, of Jews executing anyone for failing to observe the sabbath.

Come on! You are so quick to compare the Jews to Muslims. I am sure you have that info at your fingertips.

[Eki]

Eki,

I am still waiting for you to show me examples, in modern time, of Jews executing anyone for failing to observe the sabbath.

Come on! You are so quick to compare the Jews to Muslims. I am sure you have that info at your fingertips.
Even Rani understood that it was just an example to illustrate how silly it is to paint with the same brush all the modern members of a religion just because of what the originators or followers of that religion did hundreds or thousands of years ago. I guess you're just far thicker than Rani.

Mohammad is dead, who cares if he was a pedophile or not, it's not a part of Islam anyway. Besides peoples views on what we call pedophilia weren't the same over thousand years ago regardless of religion. They aren't the same around the world even today. For example in some parts of Mexico, the age of consent is only 12:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America

And the marriageable age in New Hampshire can be as low as 13:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age

[Rani]

Mohammad is dead, who cares if he was a pedophile or not, it's not a part of Islam anyway.
That's where I think your wrong and where the fact you've never lived in amongst a traditional muslim population shows. To them Mohammad may be dead but his legacy is taken VERY VERY seriously. Muslims around these parts kill each other over the 'family honor'. They sometimes kill their sisters for having sex out of marriage, or the person she had sex with for the same reason - google 'bedouin blood vengeance' if you wish to find more information. These are not isolated incidents like kids in Finland who go and shoot up their school, but the norm in a lot of bedouin muslim villages. As I said before, judging Islam through western eyes is simply wrong as it's a very different culture to the way westerners live.

PS I am just as thick as the next guy.

[Camelopard]

That's where I think your wrong and where the fact you've never lived in amongst a traditional muslim population shows. To them Mohammad may be dead but his legacy is taken VERY VERY seriously. Muslims around these parts kill each other over the 'family honor'. They sometimes kill their sisters for having sex out of marriage, or the person she had sex with for the same reason - google 'bedouin blood vengeance' if you wish to find more information. These are not isolated incidents like kids in Finland who go and shoot up their school, but the norm in a lot of bedouin muslim villages. As I said before, judging Islam through western eyes is simply wrong as it's a very different culture to the way westerners live.

PS I am just as thick as the next guy.

Things like this aren't restricted to just muslims, have you heard of 'dowry deaths' where the inlaws kill the new wife because she didn't bring enough dowry? This is still happening in India.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=dowry+deaths&meta=&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

[markabilly]

yep, have some sex outside the marriage and even in Saudia it is a quick chop off the old head for the girl only

OTOH, screwing nine years or younger girls is aokay, even today, as you long as you got the contract signed and most importantly, is still a virgin...but she can still play with her dolls

and the best thing of all, is one can have a whole harem of girls....not just be stuck with one

the first cite below is a link to th current practice of illegally bedding minors, in a practice little different from using the girls as sex slaves...esp. through the use of temporary marriages--the other is about a french judge annulling a marriage cause the girl were no virgin...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1991615/MUTAH-OR-TEMPORARY-MARRIAGE-IN-MUSLIM-SOCIETY

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4034908.ece

[anthonyvop]

Even Rani understood that it was just an example to illustrate how silly it is to paint with the same brush all the modern members of a religion just because of what the originators or followers of that religion did hundreds or thousands of years ago. I guess you're just far thicker than Rani.

Mohammad is dead, who cares if he was a pedophile or not, it's not a part of Islam anyway. Besides peoples views on what we call pedophilia weren't the same over thousand years ago regardless of religion. They aren't the same around the world even today. For example in some parts of Mexico, the age of consent is only 12:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America

And the marriageable age in New Hampshire can be as low as 13:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age

Cubans have an expression for people like you........"Que come mierda".

I would love to see you amongst traditional Muslims and see how long you would last with your beliefs.

[donKey jote]

Qué comemierda ! :dozey:

[Rollo]

Even Rani understood that it was just an example to illustrate how silly it is to paint with the same brush all the modern members of a religion just because of what the originators or followers of that religion did hundreds or thousands of years ago. I guess you're just far thicker than Rani.

Or similarly, the people of Hawaii and an event which happened almost 70 years ago.

To illustrate this, there is a thing called the Japanese Cultural Center of Hawaii.
http://jcch.com/
Most rational adults can draw a distinction between Japan the cultural and ethnic identity and Japan the expansionist military.

[Camelopard]

[quote="anthonyvop"]Cubans have an expression for people like you........"Que come mierda".

quote]

And Germans have one for you as well: "Du bist ein grosser Scheisskopf."

Yee aren't I clever I can swear in a foreing language.............. :)

[Camelopard]

Cubans have an expression for people like you........"Que come mierda".



And Germans have one for you as well: "Du bist ein grosser Scheisskopf."

I can swear in a foreign language.............. :)

Aren't I clever........... :)

[airshifter]

wiki is generally a great read for those who are completely ignorant on a particular subject, hence the offer to that particular poster who is either too lazy or lacking in knowledge to offer anything.......

Three for three! And a bonus for including an ad hominem style attack since you can't answer the simple questions. As for Wiki, it seems you're quite familiar with it. Good job with that, and by all means keep fearing what you don't understand.

[markabilly]

Three for three! And a bonus for including an ad hominem style attack since you can't answer the simple questions. As for Wiki, it seems you're quite familiar with it. Good job with that, and by all means keep fearing what you don't understand.

Ignorance is bliss and i am sure you are very happy. Keep cuddling that which will kill you

and since you can not read my posts nor answer your own questions, or offer anything but some personal experience about seeing some churches in some countries, well, even as late as 1938, one could still find jews and rabbis running loose in nazi germany along with places of worship for them

why should i waste my time on you.....
Mr. Chamberlain?

as my daughter types just for you:, you dont rule...hahahaahahaa :D !!!!

[Tazio]

Yep, more reasons why i am not a "religious" man in terms of organized religions, and an another example of the complete lack of wisdom of man....



but at least the greek orthodoxes are not running around chopping up cartoonists and flying planes full of people and children into a building while praising god and the prophet pedo


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. Thank you for that quote from Hamlet
Just be glad I didn't post the picture of Fred on the balcony!
(perfect oportunity)Even I have limits :dozey:

[anthonyvop]

And Germans have one for you as well: "Du bist ein grosser Scheisskopf."

I can swear in a foreign language.............. :)

Aren't I clever........... :)


That isn't a language. It is an assault on the auditory senses.

[Bob Riebe]

And Bob who doesn't know the answers replies as usual: "Because I say so". Similarly in foreign politics he doesn't want to know the real reasons, he's just satisfied with the answer: "Because the US says so".
Prove what you said.
While your vacuous rhetoric backs what I say, prove your point, or are you simply so rooted in your personal fantasy and prejudice against Jews that reality is beyond you?

[harsha]

since when did this become a hate Islam thread ?

[Eki]

I would love to see you amongst traditional Muslims and see how long you would last with your beliefs.
I'm glad you added that word "traditional" there. I have had two Muslim colleagues, one from Malaysia and one from Turkey. The one from Malaysia gave me a Christmas present the first Christmas he was in Finland. I thought I should return the favor and bought one for him too. He said that I didn't have to do that, since they don't celebrate Christmas, but he took it anyway and didn't seem offended. The one from Turkey gets drunk at workplace parties just like the rest of us. And they both had just one wife and the wives were adults, the Turkish one is married to a Finn. So neither one seems like markabilly's view of Muslims.

[harsha]

@Eki

do you base your knowledge based on the two Muslim friends that you have ?

I've got a lot of Muslim friends(atleast people who I know and respect) and they are basically good chaps...but If i try and visit the Charminar area , (the older part of the city(Hyderabad) where the population is mostly Muslim) , you get the feeling that you are being watched , paranoia mostly and you don't feel comfortable....

I feel Muslims only start having a problem / picking fights etc etc etc when they are in a group inside their own lil community...otherwise most of them are pretty much peace loving and normal....

[Eki]

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Thank you for that quote from Hamlet
Just be glad I didn't post the picture of Fred on the balcony!
(perfect oportunity)Even I have limits :dozey:
Was that from Hamlet? I thought it was from CSI Miami.

[Eki]

@Eki

do you base your knowledge based on the two Muslim friends that you have ?
Of course I just don't base on them alone, but I also don't base on Wikipedia or Foxnews alone.


If i try and visit the Charminar area , (the older part of the city(Hyderabad) where the population is mostly Muslim) , you get the feeling that you are being watched , paranoia mostly and you don't feel comfortable....
"Getting the feeling" may also be just that, your own feeling, at least partly. And they might get a similar feeling if they visit your neighborhood. And those feelings probably have nothing to do with the teachings of Islam, but are caused by local history of quarrels between two groups who live next to each other but can't get along, just like the relationships between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.

[harsha]

I would seriously like to know how you get the particular views that you do have @ Eki.... no seriously

It's not the question of quarrels and not getting along , atleast in Hyderabad, barring a couple of incidents , there are no major problems with Hindu's and Muslim's...I have Hindu friends who fast along with the Muslims at the time of Ramadan and I know Muslim friends who participate in Hindu festivals....

It's just that the attitude of a Muslim changes when he goes from a mixed society to a muslim predominant one...maybe they feel that they have security in numbers...dunno , I've noticed the change in some of my muslim friends , maybe they feel that they belong here but the attitude and the way of talking def does change.

[Rani]

And Germans have one for you as well: "Du bist ein grosser Scheisskopf."

I can swear in a foreign language.............. :)

Aren't I clever........... :)
I must admit Arabic is by far the best language for swearing... Their insults are simply poetry.

[markabilly]

speaking of wiki, those friendly islamic types have agreed with shifter and pops-------and now recognized it lacks credibility, and took appropriate action:



Pakistan's ban on Facebook and YouTube this week has reopened a fierce debate on freedom of information in a country that seemed on its way to being a developing-world leader in promoting citizen access to the Web. The ban, which also covers Wikipedia and Flickr, comes after a Facebook group declared May 20 to be Draw Muhammad Day.


http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/pakistans-banning-of-facebook-and-youtube-augurs-broader-crackdown/19487077


but not to worry as that bastion and great protector of freedom of speech and the press, is buying up the intenet:


The Russian investment vehicle that bought a $200m stake in Facebook last year is preparing to buy stakes in dozens of well-known internet companies as Russia turns to the internet to lead its future prosperity.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/7753692/Facebook-is-just-the-first-step-say-Russians.html

[anthonyvop]

since when did this become a hate Islam thread ?

When Eki turned it into a hate Jews thread.

[Eki]

When Eki turned it into a hate Jews thread.
No, I think it was before that. The name of the thread is after all "Mosque being built near Ground Zero?" and not "Synagogue being built near Ground Zero?".

[Daniel]

Can we all just agree that all religions can make idiots, zealots and radicals out of some people? Whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Islam or whatever.... all religions can make crazies out of people.

[Bob Riebe]

Can we all just agree that all religions can make idiots, zealots and radicals out of some people? Whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Islam or whatever.... all religions can make crazies out of people.

NO http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif

[Camelopard]

Can we all just agree that all religions can make idiots, zealots and radicals out of some people? Whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Islam or whatever.... all religions can make crazies out of people.

Welcome back Daniel! and yes I agree with you totally........

[airshifter]

Can we all just agree that all religions can make idiots, zealots and radicals out of some people? Whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Islam or whatever.... all religions can make crazies out of people.

That doesn't cover Markabilly, as he claims not to be religious. His hatred, paranoia, and anger are of course somehow formed without religious bias.

But the Crusades were just fine! :laugh:

[airshifter]

Ignorance is bliss and i am sure you are very happy. Keep cuddling that which will kill you

and since you can not read my posts nor answer your own questions, or offer anything but some personal experience about seeing some churches in some countries, well, even as late as 1938, one could still find jews and rabbis running loose in nazi germany along with places of worship for them

why should i waste my time on you.....
Mr. Chamberlain?

as my daughter types just for you:, you dont rule...hahahaahahaa :D !!!!

I've answered the question, seems you keep dodging it while attempting to distract with personal attacks.

Sleep well, even though there are Muslims all around you! :D

[Tazio]

Can we all just agree that all religions can make idiots, zealots and radicals out of some people? Whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Islam or whatever.... all religions can make crazies out of people.
Big +1
Cheers Daniel :up:

[Rollo]

Can we agree that it isn't fair to blame certain events on those crazies?

[Daniel]

Welcome back Daniel! and yes I agree with you totally........

:wave:

It should be pointed out that I was banned for speaking out against someone of the let us worship Jenson Button religion :p

[Roamy]

Things like this aren't restricted to just muslims, have you heard of 'dowry deaths' where the inlaws kill the new wife because she didn't bring enough dowry? This is still happening in India.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=dowry+deaths&meta=&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

This one sounds pretty good to me!

[harsha]

Can we all just agree that all religions can make idiots, zealots and radicals out of some people? Whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Islam or whatever.... all religions can make crazies out of people.

if it's organized religion , I'd agree wholeheartedly....

[Daniel]

You're right Harsha. Religions themselves are fundamentally sound. It's when there are religious bodies, councils and leaders that it all goes South sometimes.

[Tazio]

:wave:

It should be pointed out that I was banned for speaking out against someone of the let us worship Jenson Button religion :p

May I humbly say I was too! :dozey:

[Daniel]

May I humbly say I was too! :dozey:
Us Anti-Button fundamentalists need to stick together. *fires gun up in the air* lalalalalalalalala :p

[markabilly]

Can we all just agree that all religions can make idiots, zealots and radicals out of some people? Whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Islam or whatever.... all religions can make crazies out of people.
No.

Many religions hold forth high ideals and great priniciples.

It is the hypocrisy of man that brings them down. The anti-materialistic, turn the other cheek, prinicples of the new testament are not to be found in the actions of popes and such as the crusades, Constantine and others.


Islam does not have these high principles, anymore than Nazism had these principles. The very teachings of Islam is to subject women to outrageous abuse. The Islamic state is to impose its will and oppress anything that is contrary to its religion. It starts with a pedophile prophet and continues these practices even today, with the full blessing of its religious principles.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1991615/MUTAH-OR-TEMPORARY-MARRIAGE-IN-MUSLIM-SOCIETY

[Daniel]

No.

Many religions hold forth high ideals and great priniciples.

It is the hypocrisy of man that brings them down. The anti-materialistic, turn the other cheek, prinicples of the new testament are not to be found in the actions of popes and such as the crusades, Constantine and others.


Islam does not have these high principles, anymore than Nazism had these principles. The very teachings of Islam is to subject women to outrageous abuse. The Islamic state is to impose its will and oppress anything that is contrary to its religion. It starts with a pedophile prophet and continues these practices even today, with the full blessing of its religious principles.

Translation....

No you're wrong

Because I agree completely with you that people are the problem, not religion.

[Tazio]

*fires gun up in the air* lalalalalalalalala :p

What? Do you have a wedding going on over there? :uhoh: :p

[Daniel]

What? Do you have a wedding going on over there? :uhoh: :p
Yeah. There's a guy walking down the aisle with a Jenson Button cardboard cutout :bonce:

[markabilly]

Translation....

No you're wrong

Because I agree completely with you that people are the problem, not religion.
I agree that in most religions that is true, but there are certain religions that hold principles that make them an abomination to mankind and especially women and children, and Islam is one of them. Just as the justification and motivation for concentration camps and liquidation of "inferior people" are to be found in mein kampf and the teachings of Hitler, so it is with the teachings and life of prophet .....

The Islamic extremists are not being hypocrites. And Hitler and his band of merry men were not being hypocrites, indeed, in their eyes, they were the very embodiment of patriotism and adherence to their prinicples.

And that is the difference.

[Daniel]

I agree that in most religions that is true, but there are certain religions that hold principles that make them an abomination to mankind and especially women and children, and Islam is one of them. Just as the justification and motivation for concentration camps and liquidation of "inferior people" are to be found in mein kampf and the teachings of Hitler, so it is with the teachings and life of prophet .....

The Islamic extremists are not being hypocrites.
Meh, you've just got a western view of Islam which is relayed to you through the media. I bet they say the same thing about Christians in Islamic countries.

[Islamic dude]Look at those non-fricking raghead horsejockeys! I hate them because I don't understand them etc etc etc[/islamic dude]

[markabilly]

Meh, you've just got a western view of Islam which is relayed to you through the media. I bet they say the same thing about Christians in Islamic countries.

[Islamic dude]Look at those non-fricking raghead horsejockeys! I hate them because I don't understand them etc etc etc[/islamic dude]
neigh, neigh, just read your koran and study the life of the pedo prophet....and take a good look at iran...

would have agreed some time ago with shifter, you and others, but then I began to read and study the subject and its foundation and results of chopping heads off cartoonists and turning 12 year girls into sex slaves ......and the comparison to nazism became unavoidable.

better do it quick before the standard reference of "Eki-Wiki" gets banned world wide for its anti-islamic teachings.....or bought out by the Russians... :rolleyes:

[Tazio]

Yeah. There's a guy walking down the aisle with a Jenson Button cardboard cutout :bonce: Next time send me an invite ;)

[markabilly]

Yeah. There's a guy walking down the aisle with a Jenson Button cardboard cutout :bonce:
well it is clear that britaina is going to see the light and once you see the light and adopt islamic law, you can still have another three wives.....young as you please..even some "temps"......and NOT be a sinner

see, i can see some good things about islam, it ain't all bad, reminds me of the life of many good ole boys of arkanawsaw...

make room caroline, and let the girls play with their dolls...

[Daniel]

well it is clear that britaina is going to see the light and once you see the light and adopt islamic law, you can still have another three wives.....young as you please..even some "temps"......and NOT be a sinner

see, i can see some good things about islam, it ain't all bad, reminds me of the life of many good ole boys of arkanawsaw...

make room caroline, and let the girls play with their dolls...
Exactly. It's not all that bad :rotflmao:

Tazio, sorry it was friends and worst enemies only :) As Jody Schekter once said...... <insert random quote which isn't even relevant>

[Langdale Forest]

Us Anti-Button fundamentalists need to stick together. *fires gun up in the air* lalalalalalalalala :p

I don't understand why some people don't like Button. I can accept people who do not not like Hamilton because of his dangerous road driving and general attitude, but why Button? :confused:

[Tazio]

I don't understand why some people don't like Button. I can accept people who do not not like Hamilton because of his dangerous road driving and general attitude, but why Button? :confused: This barbeque is not about Button! :s mokin:
We have bigger fish to fry ;)
I mean MUCH smaller
:rotflmao:

[Langdale Forest]

This barbeque is not about Button! :s mokin:



Jenson Button likes having barbeques in his garden? :p :D
How about an F1 burger?

[Tazio]

Jenson Button likes having barbeques in his garden? :p :D
How about an F1 burger?

Could we at least leave ther Germans out of this? :p

[Langdale Forest]

Could we at least leave ther Germans out of this? :p


What Germans? :confused:

[Tazio]

What Germans? :confused:

You know!
The Hamburgers :confused: :)

[Langdale Forest]

You know!
The Hamburgers :confused: :)


Q: Why is it called Hamburg?
A: It's where they make Hamburgers. ;)

:rotflmao:

[Tazio]

Q: Why is it called Hamburg?
A: It's where they make Hamburgers. ;)

:rotflmao:

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of:
"Hamburger can be a descriptive noun in German, referring to someone from Hamburg " :)

[Langdale Forest]

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of:
"Hamburger can be a descriptive noun in German, referring to someone from Hamburg " :)

Be carefull not to eat them though! :p

[Tazio]

Well actually...
Never mind, good advice! :)

[Roamy]

Be carefull not to eat them though! :p

I really think that would depend on the age and gender!

[Langdale Forest]

I really think that would depend on the age and gender!

Any clues to why that may be?http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/s.gif

[Easy Drifter]

Talk about a thread hijack!!!!!!!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Talk about a thread hijack!!!!!!!!

I have to say, complete thread hijack..and Eki didn't invoke Dubya to do it...a rare moment...one to be treasured.

[Eki]

Foamy made this a hate Hamburger thread. Don't get me started with Freedom Fries!

[Langdale Forest]

Talk about a thread hijack!!!!!!!!

A thread that was about a place where hijacked planes crashed gets hijacked, eh? :p


Foamy made this a hate Hamburger thread. Don't get me started with Freedom Fries!

Who is Foamy?

[Eki]

Who is Foamy?
Roasty

[Langdale Forest]

eh?

[Eki]

eh?
The Coyote Bait

[Langdale Forest]

???

[Eki]

Fausto!!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Third Base?

[donKey jote]

I really think that would depend on the age and gender!

Leave the hamburgers for Markabilly :s ailor:

We´ll have the hamburguesas :D

[Easy Drifter]

Buffalo Burgers for me.
Eki's burgers have to be Kosher! :D

[airshifter]

I agree that in most religions that is true, but there are certain religions that hold principles that make them an abomination to mankind and especially women and children, and Islam is one of them. Just as the justification and motivation for concentration camps and liquidation of "inferior people" are to be found in mein kampf and the teachings of Hitler, so it is with the teachings and life of prophet .....

The Islamic extremists are not being hypocrites. And Hitler and his band of merry men were not being hypocrites, indeed, in their eyes, they were the very embodiment of patriotism and adherence to their prinicples.

And that is the difference.

And I'm sure David Koresh is the jewel of the Christians too. After all, it's just the Muslims that mistreat women and children right?

With your vast background of the Qu'ran surely you can quote all of these areas that show without bias that it is the intent of Islam to promote hate, intolerance and such..... in the context of how it was written?

[markabilly]

And I'm sure David Koresh is the jewel of the Christians too. After all, it's just the Muslims that mistreat women and children right?

With your vast background of the Qu'ran surely you can quote all of these areas that show without bias that it is the intent of Islam to promote hate, intolerance and such..... in the context of how it was written?

actually Koresh was following a number of islamic teachings he tried to call christian, such as his multiple sex partners involving small children, but since the hypocrite done fried his splattered brains, and the nut that blew up the fed building is dead as well, nobody is running around worshipping the sicko like the pedo prophet gets worshipped.

See moslems were following their moslem religion, and koesh was using the christian religion to exploit children....
don't know why i should bother with you anymore since you never read the links anyway

[markabilly]

Leave the hamburgers for Markabilly :s ailor:

We´ll have the hamburguesas :D
In your case, it don't matter, as your woman was just crying :bigcry: and telling me the other day that you ain't got no talent when it comes to eating...... :vader: :vader:

[donKey jote]

Just because she invited me around to your place for dinner once doesn´t make her my woman... Easy can keep her !
She did say his are almost as good as Captain Birdseye´s :s ailor:
Ntzxbf_NhUM

[airshifter]

actually Koresh was following a number of islamic teachings he tried to call christian, such as his multiple sex partners involving small children, but since the hypocrite done fried his splattered brains, and the nut that blew up the fed building is dead as well, nobody is running around worshipping the sicko like the pedo prophet gets worshipped.

See moslems were following their moslem religion, and koesh was using the christian religion to exploit children....
don't know why i should bother with you anymore since you never read the links anyway

Why do you bother?

Because you know that as much crap as you spew, you haven't provide any real evidence of it's truth, even though evidence disputing it's truth is easy to come by.

Koresh was an extremist hiding behind a Christian view, which is no different than another terrorist who hides behind a Muslim view. Neither are practicing their religion as it was intended.

Still waiting for those in context quotes from the Qu'ran. With all your spewed hate you must have at least dozens of them off the top of your head. Show some backbone and post a single one.... :rolleyes:

[markabilly]

Why do you bother?

Because you know that as much crap as you spew, you haven't provide any real evidence of it's truth, even though evidence disputing it's truth is easy to come by.

Koresh was an extremist hiding behind a Christian view, which is no different than another terrorist who hides behind a Muslim view. Neither are practicing their religion as it was intended.

Still waiting for those in context quotes from the Qu'ran. With all your spewed hate you must have at least dozens of them off the top of your head. Show some backbone and post a single one....


speaking of being the crapmeister, you done ate the whole crap cake all by yourself----

the difference is Koresh was hiding behind, as you say, and those extremist are not hiding behind the muslim view but are practicing it without hypocrisy. :rolleyes:

if you are too lazy to be bothered to read the links---or to find anything that disputes the fact of temporary marriages, banning Wiki (of all things) and all the rest with nothing else to offer, except I done seen a church somewhere in a moslem country and not all moslems arre like that.... then you are the one with nothing but air to stand upon and it fits your name :rolleyes:

I think you are a closet moslem who has nothing to offer, except play the role of the "good german" :rotflmao:

[markabilly]

Just because she invited me around to your place for dinner once doesn´t make her my woman... Easy can keep her !


Not what she told me....she told me how many many times you tried to make her snort without nary one snort.

She wanted in to my place, but i sent here away as I am allergic to penicillum, especially after she spent so much almost snort time with you....maybe she will have more fun with easy.....hope he took his shots

now this is the way to railroad a thread boys and grils, right off the tracks... :D

Certainly a lot more fun than eki saying for the 12,0000,0000,0000 time those jews are not to be allowed to live in Isreal and it is all bush's fault............for finland letting losers like eki breathe

[airshifter]

speaking of being the crapmeister, you done ate the whole crap cake all by yourself----

the difference is Koresh was hiding behind, as you say, and those extremist are not hiding behind the muslim view but are practicing it without hypocrisy. :rolleyes:

if you are too lazy to be bothered to read the links---or to find anything that disputes the fact of temporary marriages, banning Wiki (of all things) and all the rest with nothing else to offer, except I done seen a church somewhere in a moslem country and not all moslems arre like that.... then you are the one with nothing but air to stand upon and it fits your name :rolleyes:

I think you are a closet moslem who has nothing to offer, except play the role of the "good german" :rotflmao:


And you still can't provide a single shred of evidence to support your view. We get that you are scared of Muslims and hate them. We just don't get what makes you cower in fear and attach mistruths to the religion.

As for the links, do you think you're telling me about something I didn't already know? But yet again you attempt to show that the extremists acts of those people represent all of Islam, yet forgive a Christian such as Koresh.

Other than the double standards and lack of evidence to support your view, you have a good point. But barring those two things you've really said nothing. :laugh:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Why let reality and facts get in the way of a good rant Shifter?

[airshifter]

Why let reality and facts get in the way of a good rant Shifter?

Run, Run, Run! Muslim in disguise!

Don't kill me please, I'm not a Christian!

:laugh:



I think it's a matter of many fearing what they don't understand. I don't claim to be a very religious person myself, but maybe it's due to that fact that I don't forgive the problems of one religion while condemning another for acts along the same lines.

[markabilly]

Run, Run, Run! Muslim in disguise!

Don't kill me please, I'm not a Christian!

:laugh:



I think it's a matter of many fearing what they don't understand. I don't claim to be a very religious person myself, but maybe it's due to that fact that I don't forgive the problems of one religion while condemning another for acts along the same lines.
unless your airhead be a cartoonist, you got nothing to worry about...

the problem is that i do understand Islam more than I want to.

and if you could read english you would know I ain't forgiving any pedophile, not koresch, not the prophet pedo and any of his religious leaders.

But the way you sqwack on does make me wonder if there is not a connection there, somewhere, as to why you raush to defend your pedo prophet...is it that you accept what you do not understand because you are a good german or is it because you have some special affinity for this religion and its abusive practices??

[markabilly]

oakay for ignorant folks here you go....

Quran 9:111 (which is the only promised path to heaven--suicide to carry out pedo prophet's wishes for destruction of non-beleivers....



Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their wealth for the price of Paradise, to fight in the way of Allah, to kill and get killed. It is a promise binding on the truth in the Torah, the Gospel and the Qur'an,



and some more, least there be any doubt, in the mind on "non-beleivers" and hypocrites.....
Qur'an (4:74) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.074) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Qur'an (3:151) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Qur'an (2:191-193) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Qur'an (4:89) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.089) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

and there is this that condemns peaceful moslems who are not busy blowing themselves up....

Qur'an (4:95) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.095) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

or more to the point:

Qur'an (5:33) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.033) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Qur'an (8:12) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.012) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Qur'an (8:39) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.039) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"


Qur'an (8:57) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.057) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Qur'an (8:59-60) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.0059) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Qur'an (9:5) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.005) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush


Qur'an (9:38-39) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.038) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."
Qur'an (66:9) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/066.qmt.html#066.009) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."


and other religous source with as much authority as the koran:

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim

Finally, the words of Muhammad, pedo prophet of Islam--no doubt aimed right at airsiterhead....


Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"



Not even Hitler got that carried away in Mein Kampf-

Koersch was a hypocrite, failing to follow the four gospels---and under the koran and the prophet, so are "peaceful moslems" who unless they go forth (and kill, baby kill) they will be replaced by others and suffer greatly--9.38-9.39

[Roamy]

Nice job Markability !!

Now for the Tires

If you have the freedom to love
Why can't you have the freedom to hate?
If you have the freedom to speak
Why do they control what you say?
If we have BET
why can't we have WET
if we have the United Negro College fund
Why can't we have the Honky College fund
If a black women can compete in the miss usa pagent
why can't a white women compete in miss black usa
the list goes on and on.

[Eki]

If you have the freedom to love
Why can't you have the freedom to hate?
Love is constructive, hate is destructive.




If a black women can compete in the miss usa pagent
why can't a white women compete in miss black usa
the list goes on and on.
This one is easy. Because it's the Miss US contest and not the Miss White USA contest.

[Eki]

if we have the United Negro College fund
Why can't we have the Honky College fund

Some country clubs or others probably have their own Honky College Funds, they just don't call it that.

[markabilly]

obviously you two missed the point of this thread.....





oakay for ignorant folks here you go....

Quran 9:111 (which is the only promised path to heaven--suicide to carry out pedo prophet's wishes for destruction of non-beleivers....




and some more, least there be any doubt, in the mind on "non-beleivers" and hypocrites.....
Qur'an (4:74) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.074) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Qur'an (3:151) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Qur'an (2:191-193) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Qur'an (4:89) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.089) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

and there is this that condemns peaceful moslems who are not busy blowing themselves up....

Qur'an (4:95) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.095) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

or more to the point:

Qur'an (5:33) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.033) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Qur'an (8:12) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.012) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Qur'an (8:39) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.039) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"


Qur'an (8:57) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.057) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Qur'an (8:59-60) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.0059) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Qur'an (9:5) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.005) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush


Qur'an (9:38-39) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.038) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."
Qur'an (66:9) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/066.qmt.html#066.009) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."


and other religous source with as much authority as the koran:

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim

Finally, the words of Muhammad, pedo prophet of Islam--no doubt aimed right at airsiterhead....


Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"



Not even Hitler got that carried away in Mein Kampf-

Koersch was a hypocrite, failing to follow the four gospels---and under the koran and the prophet, so are "peaceful moslems" who unless they go forth (and kill, baby kill) they will be replaced by others and suffer greatly--9.38-9.39

[anthonyvop]

Love is constructive, hate is destructive.



Hate has accomplished more to benefit mankind than love ever has.

[race aficionado]

Hate has accomplished more to benefit mankind than love ever has.

anthony, you like fishing right?

That is the most surreal and misguided quote that I have ever read and no, I am not going to debate it with you.


Love,
:s mokin:

[anthonyvop]

anthony, you like fishing right?

That is the most surreal and misguided quote that I have ever read and no, I am not going to debate it with you.


Love,
:s mokin:
Can't handle the truth?

[schmenke]

Hate has accomplished more to benefit mankind than love ever has.

True.

A byproduct of hatred, war, conflict has always been some kind of positive advancement to mankind.

[Eki]

True.

A byproduct of hatred, war, conflict has always been some kind of positive advancement to mankind.
Without love, the mankind wouldn't reproduce that much. If there were just hate, people would kill each other quite quickly and go extinct.

[Easy Drifter]

Horse manure Eki.
Most of mankind's technological advances have, albeit unfortunately, occurred during wars.
Maybe not to the good of mankind but that is a given.
As to procreation, which you are trying to slip in as a diversion, would still occur but not always voluntarily.

[ShiftingGears]

Necessity is the mother of invention.

[Bob Riebe]

Without love, the mankind wouldn't reproduce that much. If there were just hate, people would kill each other quite quickly and go extinct.
People who are raped still produce children, fact of biology.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Hate has accomplished more to benefit mankind than love ever has.


When one considers the quantum leap in technology in the last century, and the development of the TV, Radar, Aircraft, the Internal combustion engine, rudimentry computers, wars definately have pushed things forward.

Sad, but true. Only a naive, but maybe loving soul would fail to see that. It is a sad comment on the human condition, but the by product of defense spending, and military technology has been most of the things that make this era actually quite wonderful. The internet and this media we all meet on is a by product of this spending, which some would dictate is born of hate.

I think it isn't quite hate that has pushed us forward, but the desire of civilized society to defend itself from hate, and evil men.....

[airshifter]

oakay for ignorant folks here you go....

Quran 9:111 (which is the only promised path to heaven--suicide to carry out pedo prophet's wishes for destruction of non-beleivers....




and some more, least there be any doubt, in the mind on "non-beleivers" and hypocrites.....
Qur'an (4:74) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.074) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Qur'an (3:151) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Qur'an (2:191-193) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Qur'an (4:89) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.089) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

and there is this that condemns peaceful moslems who are not busy blowing themselves up....

Qur'an (4:95) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.095) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

or more to the point:

Qur'an (5:33) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.033) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Qur'an (8:12) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.012) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Qur'an (8:39) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.039) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"


Qur'an (8:57) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.057) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Qur'an (8:59-60) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.0059) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Qur'an (9:5) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.005) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush


Qur'an (9:38-39) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.038) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."
Qur'an (66:9) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/066.qmt.html#066.009) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."


and other religous source with as much authority as the koran:

Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim

Finally, the words of Muhammad, pedo prophet of Islam--no doubt aimed right at airsiterhead....


Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"



Not even Hitler got that carried away in Mein Kampf-

Koersch was a hypocrite, failing to follow the four gospels---and under the koran and the prophet, so are "peaceful moslems" who unless they go forth (and kill, baby kill) they will be replaced by others and suffer greatly--9.38-9.39



Nice job! Not only did you cherry pick the translations and edit them with things they don't say, but you also managed to take them completely out of context as well. I didn't expect much more from someone who claims to be non religious yet ignores the actions of one religion while condemning another for like actions.

After all, Koresh and the Catholic Priests only engaged in sexual acts with minors some 1300 or so years after Mohammed, in what are supposed to be modern societies.


And rather than cherry pick, I'll quote something that might give you a hint as to context. Unlike yourself, I won't link something, then add my own notes as if it were a quote. Those of you following alone might notice the difference in the links and the actual verses linked to... no surprise here.



In context: (pick any of the three translations through the entire two verses)

002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

002.192
YUSUFALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.





The Markabilly Muslim hatred version was edited to read as follows:

"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."



Go ahead and edit away. Do the Bible version while you're at it. Maybe you can teach some people to fear all religion and be scared little people who can't think for themselves. I think most people here are too smart to bite.

But hey, I give you credit for editing your links to try to make it sound better. That might help you hook some lazy people. :laugh:

[F1boat]

The perpretrators were Islamists and yes Muslims.
But the vast majority of Muslims want no part of the fanatical Islamists.
I do agree that building a Mosque there is not very smart though for PR reasons.

Best said.

[Jag_Warrior]

I think it isn't quite hate that has pushed us forward, but the desire of civilized society to defend itself from hate, and evil men.....

No, I also wouldn't say that (actual) hate has brought us much in the way of any sort of advancements. Fear and greed? Sure. Hate? Not so much. More often than not, hate seems to drive people and countries to sacrifice their own well being (or what makes rational sense) in order to bring harm to the hated party. We haven't built exotic weapons because we hate anybody in particular. We build them (and the other side, whoever that may be from time to time, does the same thing) because of fear. The Romans built probably the most incredible empire the western world has ever known (or will ever know) based on greed and a certain amount of arrogance. But they also had a love and passion for knowledge and developing technological advancements. Those who did not share in this appreciation were considered barbarians - and they were enslaved and/or killed. But the Romans didn't "hate" them. They looked down on them and feared what their kind would do to Roman society. What the Romans didn't consider was what their own perversions and arrogance would do to Roman society (pity that we can't learn from that experience).

But the one thing that all of God's creatures react to is fear of death or pain. Hatred is just a base emotion that humans use to justify doing irrational things to each other, among other things.

[Eki]

Horse manure Eki.
Most of mankind's technological advances have, albeit unfortunately, occurred during wars.
Maybe not to the good of mankind but that is a given.
As to procreation, which you are trying to slip in as a diversion, would still occur but not always voluntarily.
If mothers hated their babies and the babies hated their mothers, do you think the babies would survive?

[Eki]

People who are raped still produce children, fact of biology.
Rapists don't take care of the children they conceive, fact of life. So if the mothers wouldn't take care of their offspring, who would?

[Eki]

Nice job Markability !!

Now for the Tires

If you have the freedom to love
Why can't you have the freedom to hate?
If you have the freedom to speak
Why do they control what you say?
If we have BET
why can't we have WET
if we have the United Negro College fund
Why can't we have the Honky College fund
If a black women can compete in the miss usa pagent
why can't a white women compete in miss black usa
the list goes on and on.
Roasty, if you're looking for a Honky College scholarship, ask the Daughters of the American Revolution. They may have some:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughters_of_the_American_Revolution#


The Daughters of the American Revolution (DAR) is a lineage-based membership organization of women[1] dedicated to promoting historic preservation, education, and patriotism. DAR chapters are involved in raising funds for local scholarships and educational awards, preserving historical properties and artifacts and promoting patriotism within their communities. DAR has chapters in all fifty of the U.S. states as well as in the District of Columbia. There are also DAR chapters in Australia, Austria ,the Bahamas, Bermuda, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Spain, and the United Kingdom. DAR's motto is "God, Home, and Country." Some state chapters of DAR date from as early as October 11, 1890, and the National Society of DAR was incorporated by Congressional charter in 1896.

[markabilly]

Nice job! Not only did you cherry pick the translations and edit them with things they don't say, but you also managed to take them completely out of context as well. I didn't expect much more from someone who claims to be non religious yet ignores the actions of one religion while condemning another for like actions.

After all, Koresh and the Catholic Priests only engaged in sexual acts with minors some 1300 or so years after Mohammed, in what are supposed to be modern societies.


And rather than cherry pick, I'll quote something that might give you a hint as to context. Unlike yourself, I won't link something, then add my own notes as if it were a quote. Those of you following alone might notice the difference in the links and the actual verses linked to... no surprise here.



In context: (pick any of the three translations through the entire two verses)

002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

002.192
YUSUFALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.





The Markabilly Muslim hatred version was edited to read as follows:

"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."




:rotflmao:
That is why I gave the reference to those translated versions from
the University of Southern California but i should have known a moron like you would make some self contradictory post.....pointing out exactly how right I am, while being too stupid to realize it and too dishonest to admit it, inspired no doubt by the example of your mentor Weki-Eki and the great pedo prophet

any religion that openly speaks slaughtering those of a different religion--or even those who disagree as to how that religion should be practiced, and that it better to slaughter your enmemies than suffefer any persecution--or criticism, is perfect justification for slaughtering cartoonists and other infidels, where ever you may find them, along with sending young girls to blow themselves up.

Actions no different than the grand inquisition or the Stalin purges and liquidation of 20 million, or the 8 million or more killed by Hitler in his concentration camps (only about 75% or so were jews), EXCEPT FOR MOSLEMS, they have their own holy scripture of the pedo prophet, to support their slaughters..... explicitly and which condenms those who do not join in the slaughter, as hypocrites...

so much for turn the other cheek and explains the silence of islamic government leaders over such issues, who like in pakistan, are banning facebook and wiki, on religious grounds, because someone on facebook said, let us have a "draw pedo prophet day".... :rolleyes:

keep drinking your kool aid, dude, :beer:


and go visit Iran and try speaking you mind :rotflmao: or go to pakistan or iran, and try plugging into Eki's preferred reference, wiki....or your pretty little picture on facebook

[markabilly]

eki's manner and use of the term "honky" is a racial slur and no different than the use of the term nigger. The slurs just apply to different skin colors

Just more evidence that he is an american or british troll

[Daniel]

any religion that openly speaks slaughtering those of a different religion--or even those who disagree as to how that religion should be practiced, and that it better to slaughter your enmemies than suffefer any persecution--or criticism, is perfect justification for slaughtering cartoonists and other infidels, where ever you may find them, along with sending young girls to blow themselves up.

Most if not all religions speak of killing people of other religions or actually have or do go around doing it.

[markabilly]

Most if not all religions speak of killing people of other religions or actually have or do go around doing it.
don't make it right



but Islam is the only one of the major religions (Christain, Hindu, Hebrew, Islam) that urges it and celebrates it so much--unless you want to toss communism and nazism into the pot as a "major religions"

[Daniel]

don't make it right



but Islam is the only one of the major religions (Christain, Hindu, Hebrew, Islam) that urges it and celebrates it so much--unless you want to toss communism and nazism into the pot as a "major religions"
There's so much BS and ignorance of the truth contained in that post that it's not funny.

[Eki]

eki's manner and use of the term "honky" is a racial slur and no different than the use of the term nigger. The slurs just apply to different skin colors

Just more evidence that he is an american or british troll
That's evidence that you are a dog sitter from Chihuahua, Mexico, which explains your obsession on Taco Bell.

[markabilly]

There's so much BS and ignorance of the truth contained in that post that it's not funny.
not intended to be funny, but prove otherwise

just look at pakistan and iran

or the koran.

Personally i would like to agree with you, and sit around and say, well all nazis were not like that--Indeed, most were not, it was only a few extremists--and that would defintely be a true statement as it would be to to say the same about Moslems.

And that is why Islam is as dangerous as Nazism.

And as you point out, many religions have stories of celebrations of the slaughter of non beleivers, as in the old testament, and that is one of the reasons I am not a subscriber to any organized religion and very strongly believe in separation of state and religion --and is one of the paradoXes about what to do about a religion that its true beleivers and non-hypocrites should be free to practice what they please within certain limits that require respect for others, but as a result, they may become to be in charge of a government and with the power of a military, impose Allah's will upon everyone else



Thank God (no pun intended) that the Catholic Church no longer has the power to be burning herectics at the stake, or I would have been ashes a long time ago...but heell, Irish been oppressing and killing each other over which slight (and I mean very slight) variation of Christainity one should follow

[Eki]

Thank God (no pun intended) that the Catholic Church no longer has the power to be burning herectics at the stake, or I would have been ashes a long time ago...but heell, Irish been oppressing and killing each other over which slight (and I mean very slight) variation of Christainity one should follow
Actually they were killing each other over whether Northern Ireland should be a part of Ireland or a part of Britain.

[Bob Riebe]

Rapists don't take care of the children they conceive, fact of life. So if the mothers wouldn't take care of their offspring, who would?
Mothers are not rapists, try again.

[Bob Riebe]

Most if not all religions speak of killing people of other religions or actually have or do go around doing it.

Examples in context.

[Eki]

Mothers are not rapists, try again.
Mothers don't rape themselves, try again.

Mothers give birth to the babies the rapists conceive and if they hate the babies, they either get abortion, abandon the babies or maybe kill them. Most certainly they won't take care of the babies if there's just hate and no love.

[anthonyvop]

If mothers hated their babies and the babies hated their mothers, do you think the babies would survive?

If fed and cared for...of course. No reason to think not.

[Bob Riebe]

Mothers don't rape themselves, try again. (No sh-t sherlock. Do you practice making obtuse statements or is it a birth-right?
Rape once was a major tactic of war, and gee, for some reason history does not say anything about massive abortions.)

Mothers give birth to the babies the rapists conceive and if they hate the babies, they either get abortion, abandon the babies or maybe kill them. (In the society you mention unless they want to be dead, which could be done without first getting pregnant, they would do as told and as often as told. Your rhetoric is hypocritical to its self.) Most certainly they won't take care of the babies if there's just hate and no love.
How do you know if they hate the babies.

How many kids have you bore?
Try again.

[Eki]

How do you know if they hate the babies.

Because we are talking about a hypothetical world without love where hate is a virtue and the only feeling.

Try again.

[Eki]

If fed and cared for...of course. No reason to think not.
Why would anyone feed and care for them, if they were hated? Would you feed and care for people you hate?

[anthonyvop]

Why would anyone feed and care for them, if they were hated? Would you feed and care for people you hate?


I pay taxes so YES!!!!

[Easy Drifter]

Meanwhile back to the question of a Mosque being built near Ground Zero after about 3 hijacks by Eki. :vader:

[Bob Riebe]

Because we are talking about a hypothetical world without love where hate is a virtue and the only feeling.

Try again.
You may be speaking of never-land but I am referring to the real world.

[Eki]

I pay taxes so YES!!!!
Voluntarily? Would you pay taxes if you had an option not to?

OK. You have a point. Wars are funded by taxes, so it's possible that governments could breed babies for military purposes. I think the Nazis had some kind of breeding programs. And in Africa, guerrilla groups kidnap children and force them to become child soldiers. OK, a world with just hate and without love could exist. I'm not sure I'd like to live in that kind of world though. Hey, Mark in Oshawa, NOW I lost a debate!

[anthonyvop]

Voluntarily? Would you pay taxes if you had an option not to?

OK. You have a point. Wars are funded by taxes, so it's possible that governments could breed babies for military purposes. I think the Nazis had some kind of breeding programs. And in Africa, guerrilla groups kidnap children and force them to become child soldiers. OK, a world with just hate and without love could exist. I'm not sure I'd like to live in that kind of world though. Hey, Mark in Oshawa, NOW I lost a debate!

You have a real sick sense of logic.

[gloomyDAY]

Obama backs plans to build a mosque near Ground Zero.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10973459

[anthonyvop]

Obama backs plans to build a mosque near Ground Zero.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10973459

And is anyone surprised?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Some good common sense there by Obama. :up:

[Tomi]

Obama backs plans to build a mosque near Ground Zero.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10973459

The place could offcourse have been a bit more central, but I think that today in us the muslims cant be too picky.

[anthonyvop]

The place could offcourse have been a bit more central, but I think that today in us the muslims cant be too picky.


If you don't think that the location was picked because of it's location near the WTC site then you have a lot to learn.

The Majority of Muslims in NYC live in Brooklyn not Manhattan. Real Estate is much cheaper and more readily available in Brooklyn but why let a basic fact get in the way of a good American Bashing?

Personally i could care less where they build their Mosque in NYC. Those limosine Liberals are so messed up that they haven't even built a new WTC on the site and probably won't for another 10 years.

If it had been Texas of Florida it would have been built bigger and better years ago.

[Tomi]

If it had been Texas of Florida it would have been built bigger and better years ago.

Im not surprised, personally i have never understood what there is so special by buildind a high house, allmost all developing countries does it nowdays.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

...... they haven't even built a new WTC on the site and probably won't for another 10 years.




Didn't they start re-building 7 World Trade Center in 2002?

And isn't the replacement for the Twin Towers , One World Trade Center due to be completed in a few years? I thought they started building in 2006. :s

[Saint Devote]

Islam is not a religion, it is a political power as is Catholicism. Cromwell understood this, the former President of Spain Azner does and when he explained how Islam is linked at GW University in DC, he was laughed at.

Those who attack the US understand exactly what they do.

It is evident in why the date Sep 11 was selected and it is blatant in the name of the proposed Islamist center near the WTC site. The project is called "Cordoba Initiative" and it would be called "Cordoba House".

Those who correctly have recognized why this project MUST be opposed sre fighting - as usual - from a significant position of ignorance. Dammit!

The coward Ben Laden when he struck in 2001 called for a "return to Andalusia" - the capital of Andalusia was Cordoba.

Dhimmitude is the general aim of political Islam and for those who are Jews and atheists or people that are gay and so on, only death awaits.

There can never be accomodation with the Islamist enemy, they hate Mankind and worship death, they hate the West and the soco-political movement of liberty, capitalism.

It is a ideological and philosphical imperative that Cordoba House never be allowed to be built. It is gross abuse of the Constitutional freedoms of the United States to claim RIGHT to construct this Islamist project.

They are no less dangerous than the NAZI enemy or the communist enemy or the Iranian regime that powers them and seeks to first destroy Israel and then the United States.

The biggest mistake Prez. Reagan made was NOT razing Teheran to the ground.

It is time for Americans to take back this country and make it once again the country of Jefferson and Washington and Paine and Adams.

I fear for the United States. It resembles today a power in decline. Moving from the American Republic to the Weimar Republic - reforming its soul in the shape of what it was created to oppose: Platos Republic.

We are in the middle of a Greek Tragedy and the tipping point beyond the point of no return has to be avoided.

The first shot fired in 1979 in Iran recommenced a fight that stopped in the 15th century.

Americans, those of you who love this indispensible nation called the United States for its ideal of reason and liberty of the INDIVIDUAL and, recognize that this nation was founded upon ideas superior to ALL others that came before it, TAKE BACK YOUR COUNTRY! It is not too late - yet.

[ShiftingGears]

If the people building the mosque want it to succeed then they will have to watch their speakers very carefully. Maybe the people building the mosque do see it as an intention of goodwill, however it is a sensitive issue for many and any signs of preaching hate from this mosque and it will go under.

[ShiftingGears]

Islam is not a religion, it is a political power as is Catholicism. Cromwell understood this, the former President of Spain Azner does and when he explained how Islam is linked at GW University in DC, he was laughed at.

Those who attack the US understand exactly what they do.

It is evident in why the date Sep 11 was selected and it is blatant in the name of the proposed Islamist center near the WTC site. The project is called "Cordoba Initiative" and it would be called "Cordoba House".

Those who correctly have recognized why this project MUST be opposed sre fighting - as usual - from a significant position of ignorance. Dammit!

The coward Ben Laden when he struck in 2001 called for a "return to Andalusia" - the capital of Andalusia was Cordoba.

Dhimmitude is the general aim of political Islam and for those who are Jews and atheists or people that are gay and so on, only death awaits.

There can never be accomodation with the Islamist enemy, they hate Mankind and worship death, they hate the West and the soco-political movement of liberty, capitalism.

It is a ideological and philosphical imperative that Cordoba House never be allowed to be built. It is gross abuse of the Constitutional freedoms of the United States to claim RIGHT to construct this Islamist project.

They are no less dangerous than the NAZI enemy or the communist enemy or the Iranian regime that powers them and seeks to first destroy Israel and then the United States.

The biggest mistake Prez. Reagan made was NOT razing Teheran to the ground.

It is time for Americans to take back this country and make it once again the country of Jefferson and Washington and Paine and Adams.

I fear for the United States. It resembles today a power in decline. Moving from the American Republic to the Weimar Republic - reforming its soul in the shape of what it was created to oppose: Platos Republic.

We are in the middle of a Greek Tragedy and the tipping point beyond the point of no return has to be avoided.

The first shot fired in 1979 in Iran recommenced a fight that stopped in the 15th century.

Americans, those of you who love this indispensible nation called the United States for its ideal of reason and liberty of the INDIVIDUAL and, recognize that this nation was founded upon ideas superior to ALL others that came before it, TAKE BACK YOUR COUNTRY! It is not too late - yet.

You're right.

A JIHAD ON ISLAM!

[Daniel]

You're right.

A JIHAD ON ISLAM!
Don't be so mawkish! :rofl:

[airshifter]

You're right.

A JIHAD ON ISLAM!

Almost word for word what I was thinking! :laugh:

I find it comical how many in the US want to claim how open the country is, how much freedom we have, etc, then sing the blues and cry that the country is falling apart whenever something they don't like is going on. Other than the closest racists, I think the closet religious crazies are the next most paranoid group. I'm surprised in this day and age they haven't formed up into one large group of paranoids, claiming superiority for all to bow down to.

[Daniel]

Almost word for word what I was thinking! :laugh:

I find it comical how many in the US want to claim how open the country is, how much freedom we have, etc, then sing the blues and cry that the country is falling apart whenever something they don't like is going on. Other than the closest racists, I think the closet religious crazies are the next most paranoid group. I'm surprised in this day and age they haven't formed up into one large group of paranoids, claiming superiority for all to bow down to.

Yeah, just like the people who cry about gays and lesbians getting the right to marry. Who gives a **** what they do? They're not going to marry YOU and force you to do gay things and just because their being together is called a marriage and they have the same rights as you doesn't mean that your marriage is now worthless :crazy:

It's these sorts of people who get wound up by tiny things and put so much effort into stopping things which really have little or no impact upon them that they fail to do anything about the things which really do have an impact upon them.

[BTCC Fan#1]

I'm surprised in this day and age they haven't formed up into one large group of paranoids, claiming superiority for all to bow down to.
Isn't it called 'the Republican party'..?

[SOD]

this is for the rubes to argue about.

how about the Sharia law at the US Federal reserve? if you didnt notice then you're obviously paying higher than 0% interest.

[anthonyvop]

If the people building the mosque want it to succeed then they will have to watch their speakers very carefully. Maybe the people building the mosque do see it as an intention of goodwill, however it is a sensitive issue for many and any signs of preaching hate from this mosque and it will go under.

No it won't. They can spew whatever hate they want. They are protected by the US constitution.

[ShiftingGears]

No it won't. They can spew whatever hate they want. They are protected by the US constitution.

Yes they are, but I was thinking about the responses of some members of the public - legal or not. Could get nasty.

[ShiftingGears]

Don't be so mawkish! :rofl:

Are you asking for a knuckle sandwich? :p :

[chuck34]

I try to stay out of this because I am of two minds on this whole deal.

One thing does strike me as odd. The supposed purpose of this mosque is for "outreach and understanding" or something to that effect. How is that supposed to happen when something like 70% of the people don't want this thing there? Wouldn't you think that if the real purpose was "outreach and understanding" that perhaps they would think to themselves that this was a bad idea to do at this place, and move it to somewhere else in Manhattan or even Brooklyn where there is a significant Muslim population?

Something stinks with this from top to bottom, to put it mildly. But on the other hand, I really don't want the government to infringe on any religious freedoms. But on the third hand there needs to be something that the citizens can do to stop something like this when there is such overwhelming outcry over it.

[Daniel]

I try to stay out of this because I am of two minds on this whole deal.

One thing does strike me as odd. The supposed purpose of this mosque is for "outreach and understanding" or something to that effect. How is that supposed to happen when something like 70% of the people don't want this thing there? Wouldn't you think that if the real purpose was "outreach and understanding" that perhaps they would think to themselves that this was a bad idea to do at this place, and move it to somewhere else in Manhattan or even Brooklyn where there is a significant Muslim population?

Something stinks with this from top to bottom, to put it mildly. But on the other hand, I really don't want the government to infringe on any religious freedoms. But on the third hand there needs to be something that the citizens can do to stop something like this when there is such overwhelming outcry over it.

I quite agree with that. Whilst there should be the freedom to do anything in terms of religion perhaps this is not the best place to do it for all concerned.

[driveace]

i would not allow it at the Ground Zero!
Full stop .Build it some where else,make sure its bugged too!!!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

i would not allow it at the Ground Zero!
Full stop .Build it some where else,make sure its bugged too!!!

It's not at ground zero. It is a few blocks away. And it's private land.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It's not at ground zero. It is a few blocks away. And it's private land.

Jon, umm yes, it looks upon the site of where the WTC stood. It should be pointed out there are 100 mosques in New York. This isn't about religious tolerance.

This is no different than having a neo-Nazi rally outside the gates of Auschwitz. IT is just in poor taste...

Not all Muslims are terrorists, not even close; but for anyone who is Islamic to be behind this mosque better get a course in tact, manners and history.....

[Daniel]

Jon, umm yes, it looks upon the site of where the WTC stood. It should be pointed out there are 100 mosques in New York. This isn't about religious tolerance.

This is no different than having a neo-Nazi rally outside the gates of Auschwitz. IT is just in poor taste...

Not all Muslims are terrorists, not even close; but for anyone who is Islamic to be behind this mosque better get a course in tact, manners and history.....
Have to agree with Mark here Jon, whilst people should have the freedom to worship wherever you do need to be sensible about this. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but the people who flew into the towers were all Muslims......

It wouldn't kill anyone for the mosque to be sited in a slightly less sensitive area....

[Brown, Jon Brow]

This is no different than having a neo-Nazi rally outside the gates of Auschwitz. IT is just in poor taste...

Not all Muslims are terrorists,

You contradicted yourself here.

[Mark in Oshawa]

You contradicted yourself here.

No...it isn't a contraction Jon. Stay with the tour......If you advocated that the Neo-Nazi's are allowed to have a rally in Auschwitz, then it is in many ways no different.

A group, for better or worse that was connected to those who did that deed on 9/11 wants to build a monument that basically is seen (IS SEEN) as an insult to those who survived or lost family members there. That monument is a Mosque. Islam was the guiding force of those who flew those planes. I am not saying Islam is a violent religion, any more than would I say all Germans were/are Nazi's. But the point is, the people funding this Mosque don't have the sense, tact or decorum to realize that they are not welcome within sight of this piece of America that was essentially attacked by radical Islam.

So if the people backing this mosque are all about understanding, then they really are out to lunch, or they don't care. Now you can say this is about understanding, but you are not Muslim, nor are you the ones building this thing. One of the Imam's who will speak there is a man who is connected to some radical Sharia clerics who have been spitting on America for years...

[Mark in Oshawa]

No...it isn't a contraction Jon. Stay with the tour......If you advocated that the Neo-Nazi's are allowed to have a rally in Auschwitz, then it is in many ways no different.

A group, for better or worse that was connected to those who did that deed on 9/11 wants to build a monument that basically is seen (IS SEEN) as an insult to those who survived or lost family members there. That monument is a Mosque. Islam was the guiding force of those who flew those planes. I am not saying Islam is a violent religion, any more than would I say all Germans were/are Nazi's. But the point is, the people funding this Mosque don't have the sense, tact or decorum to realize that they are not welcome within sight of this piece of America that was essentially attacked by radical Islam.

So if the people backing this mosque are all about understanding, then they really are out to lunch, or they don't care. Now you can say this is about understanding, but you are not Muslim, nor are you the ones building this thing. One of the Imam's who will speak there is a man who is connected to some radical Sharia clerics who have been spitting on America for years...

oops..contradiction...I said contraction. This is what happens when you try to post while answering the phone...

[Brown, Jon Brow]

No...it isn't a contradiction Jon. Stay with the tour......If you advocated that the Neo-Nazi's are allowed to have a rally in Auschwitz, then it is in many ways no different.


I think it's completely different.

If Abu Hamza al-Masri was going to be brain washing people at this place then your analogy might work.

What I want to know is what defines the minimum distance away from ground zero before a mosque becomes appropriate? 3 blocks, 5 block? It sounds to be like people are requesting a zone of religous intolerance.

[gloomyDAY]

Build the mosque somewhere else. Go away!
Not a fan of having salt poured on open wounds.

Really can't believe Obama endorsed a mosque to be built near Ground Zero and then says it shouldn't have been taken as an endorsement.

[Tomi]

but the people who flew into the towers were all Muslims......

Probably just a coincidence :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think it's completely different.

If Abu Hamza al-Masri was going to be brain washing people at this place then your analogy might work.

What I want to know is what defines the minimum distance away from ground zero before a mosque becomes appropriate? 3 blocks, 5 block? It sounds to be like people are requesting a zone of religous intolerance.

If they wanted to build anything else, I don't think anyone would care.

Jon, the point is, why piss off so many people to prove a point? You know what those people are? Zealots and pinheads. Using your logic, I should therefore have no problem with that loon from Kansas Rev Phelps who demonstrates at funerals of US Servicemen with a racist and homophobic agenda. They do this because they want to create the most pain and publicity possible. They then claim that they have the right to assemble and protest. Just because you have the right, doesn't mean it is smart do it.

9/11 is still an open wound for many New Yorkers. You think a mosque right across the street isn't tugging on that scab? You think an anti American Cleric in there rabble rousing isn't an insult?

It would be no different than the US Government buying a building across the street from The British Houses of Parliament and having a giant sign saying "hey, we kicked your @ss in 1776, how do you like us now?"

Kind of a sore point you know?

For anyone to defend this as a good idea is just not thinking. IN theory, you are right Jon, but only the rude or stupid or people with an anti-American agenda would advocate such a building. Moderate Muslim groups are standing with the opposition on this. They see this for what it is.....a symbolic way of radical Islam putting their stamp on a "victory", just like the dome of the Rock is in Jerusalem.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

If they wanted to build anything else, I don't think anyone would care.

Jon, the point is, why piss off so many people to prove a point? You know what those people are? Zealots and pinheads. Using your logic, I should therefore have no problem with that loon from Kansas Rev Phelps who demonstrates at funerals of US Servicemen with a racist and homophobic agenda. They do this because they want to create the most pain and publicity possible. They then claim that they have the right to assemble and protest. Just because you have the right, doesn't mean it is smart do it.

9/11 is still an open wound for many New Yorkers. You think a mosque right across the street isn't tugging on that scab? You think an anti American Cleric in there rabble rousing isn't an insult?

It would be no different than the US Government buying a building across the street from The British Houses of Parliament and having a giant sign saying "hey, we kicked your @ss in 1776, how do you like us now?"

Kind of a sore point you know?

For anyone to defend this as a good idea is just not thinking. IN theory, you are right Jon, but only the rude or stupid or people with an anti-American agenda would advocate such a building. Moderate Muslim groups are standing with the opposition on this. They see this for what it is.....a symbolic way of radical Islam putting their stamp on a "victory", just like the dome of the Rock is in Jerusalem.



The issue can be twisted to make whatever point you want. As much as it is 'pouring salt on an open wound', it can also be viewed as a marker of the USA's enduring commitment to religious freedom.

Do you have links regarding the anti American Cleric? I've not heard anything about that.

[airshifter]

I think it's completely different.

If Abu Hamza al-Masri was going to be brain washing people at this place then your analogy might work.

What I want to know is what defines the minimum distance away from ground zero before a mosque becomes appropriate? 3 blocks, 5 block? It sounds to be like people are requesting a zone of religous intolerance.

It should be built just beyond the line of religious intolerance, misunderstanding, and paranoia. Yep, right about there.

I've heard they are starting to worry about any US buildings in Japan. After all us "Christians" tend to drop atomic bombs and stuff. And that's no stereotype either!

[chuck34]

What I want to know is what defines the minimum distance away from ground zero before a mosque becomes appropriate? 3 blocks, 5 block? It sounds to be like people are requesting a zone of religous intolerance.

How about anywhere that debris didn't land? The landing gear from one of the planes crashed through the roof of this building.

And this "tolerance" crap is just that, crap. Why is it that WE have to be tolerant? What if I wanted to build a Catholic Cathedral in Mecca? How well would that be accepted by the religion of peace and tolerance?

I'm really starting to come around to the idea that this is just an insult directed at us. They are playing us for fools, using our laws, Constitution, and political correctness against us.

What possible reason is there to have a mosque THERE? Why not somewhere else? It's not like this was cheap ground that would be easy to build on. Why not somewhere else? What possible reason is there to build this thing THERE? Can there be any other reason than to show to the world what fools we are, to prove that we have no back bone, and to show that we will not stand up for something we believe in?

And what do you think the response will be from this "religion of peace" when, God forbid, some nut case does something really stupid there?

Yeah, this is just a cultural center ment for outreach. Couldn't possibly be any sort of provocation, or insult. GIVE ME A BREAK!

[Easy Drifter]

You beat me to it Chuck with the Cathederal in Mecca.
Also we should build a Synogoge in Iran.

[Roamy]

We should just declare that Muslim/Islam is not a religion. Then let them build the big rec center and tax the sh!t out of it!~!

[Mark in Oshawa]

The issue can be twisted to make whatever point you want. As much as it is 'pouring salt on an open wound', it can also be viewed as a marker of the USA's enduring commitment to religious freedom.

Do you have links regarding the anti American Cleric? I've not heard anything about that.

Do some research Jon. It is late at night here and I am not up to googling this stuff up, but it is out there. I am all for religious tolerance. I just find it ironic that the same people who dump on Christianity every 10 seconds are now preaching religious tolerance (not you in particular Jon, but many of those supporting this mosque) for Islam. When people are not being shot for having a bible in their suitcase in Arab nations, we can have this conversation with a straight face ok?

Read anything by Canadian Muslim Tarek Fatah, who was on Fox explaining why moderate Muslims like him are telling us exactly what this is.....

Religious freedom? The fact is if you wanted to build a mosque anywhere in America, the last place you would want to do it is in a city where any Muslims live in the burbs, and at the most expensive real estate prices in the world. If you are naive enough to believe this is an innocent little gesture, then you really are naive.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

And this "tolerance" crap is just that, crap. Why is it that WE have to be tolerant? What if I wanted to build a Catholic Cathedral in Mecca? How well would that be accepted by the religion of peace and tolerance?


Don't give me this argument. So you think America should use Saudi Arabia as an example of how to act? America is better than that!

[chuck34]

Don't give me this argument. So you think America should use Saudi Arabia as an example of how to act? America is better than that!

But isn't Islam the religion of peace and tolerance? That's what we've all been told. So why can't we build a Cathedral in Mecca?

Someone really needs to answer this question. Why must this mosque be built HERE? Surely it isn't for any "normal" reason, like they got a good deal on the land, or it's near their "flock", or it's a pretty site, etc. What is the reason it's there? The only answer can be because of politics, plain and simple, they want to make a point. So answer me this Jon, what is the point they want to make?

[DanicaFan]

Are you sure about that buddy? This is like rubbing salt in fresh wounds.

Seems highly inappropriate to build a Mosque where the teachings of the Koran lead to 2750 deaths.
Those "murderers" were Muslim and they committed that act against America because of Islam.

Very true.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

But isn't Islam the religion of peace and tolerance? That's what we've all been told. So why can't we build a Cathedral in Mecca?

Someone really needs to answer this question. Why must this mosque be built HERE? Surely it isn't for any "normal" reason, like they got a good deal on the land, or it's near their "flock", or it's a pretty site, etc. What is the reason it's there? The only answer can be because of politics, plain and simple, they want to make a point. So answer me this Jon, what is the point they want to make?

I can't answer that.

But because you are in America and not Saudi Arabia there is nothing you can do to stop it.

'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...'

[chuck34]

I can't answer that.

Why not, don't you have a bit of logic? Think about it. What possible motives could there be?


But because you are in America and not Saudi Arabia there is nothing you can do to stop it.

'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...'

Notice that first word there, Congress. It says absolutely nothing about what the city or state of New York can do. Besides how does not allowing a mosque to be built on that site "establish a religion", or "prohibit the free exercise thereof"? Remember they are allowed to practice their religion anywhere else.

[chuck34]

Then we have this little nugget.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/17/ground-zero-church-archdiocese-says-officials-forgot/


The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America accused New York officials on Tuesday of turning their backs on the reconstruction of the only church destroyed in the Sept. 11 attacks, while the controversial mosque near Ground Zero moves forward.

Why would they fast track the approval of this mosque, almost at any cost, and delay and block this church from being re-built?

[Daniel]

Jon, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Freedom to do what you want should also take into consideration the thoughts and feelings of other people who are involved.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Don't give me this argument. So you think America should use Saudi Arabia as an example of how to act? America is better than that!

America is far better than that. That said, putting a mosque on the site of a ruined church is very symbolic for the Muslims. That is the message here. You just choose to ignore it Jon.

90% of Americans don't.

This is no different than any other planning issue. A city can approve or disapprove planning and zoning and while the city of New York has approved this, I would love to see Mayor Bloomberg's switchboard every day right now.

This will never come to pass, because even if the people with this mosque project get it to the point of construction, good luck finding anyone willing to build it. The Construction unions have more or less said they want nothing to with it, and nothing in New York goes up without the construction unions.....there is no scabs or independents tolerated...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Then we have this little nugget.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/17/ground-zero-church-archdiocese-says-officials-forgot/



Why would they fast track the approval of this mosque, almost at any cost, and delay and block this church from being re-built?

Former Congressman John LeBoutiller is a regular commentator on a Toronto radio station and he basically said the parish that had the church doesn't have the funds to rebuild. Now how the Muslim group ended up with the land I don't know.....

[janvanvurpa]

A few thoughts from a good investigative reporter who raises some good points:

The Kate Mosque Solution

by Greg Palast
Wednesday, August 18th, 2010

Since everyone seems to have an opinion about the mosque near Ground Zero (and President Obama has two), I'd like to ask you all a couple of questions:

Given that white Christian supremacist Tim McVeigh bombed the Oklahoma City Federal Building, shouldn't we ban white churches from Oklahoma?

As New York City's indigenous Lanape Natives died at Ground Zero by the thousands when overrun by Christian colonists, shouldn't we ban Christian churches from their sacred ground?

If a mosque near Ground Zero is bad, then why not ban all Muslims from downtown New York? For this to work, should we require all Muslims in the city to wear yellow crescents?

My office was in the WTC towers, which will now be rebuilt with all the upscale shops I remember. So, Mrs. Palin, are you saying it's OK for Muslims to shop at Ground Zero as long as they don't pray there?

The new tower will have the old one's Off-Track Betting windows and bars with after-work "happy hours." So here's a solution to make everyone happy: Why not camouflage the mosque as a place to gamble and get into your secretary's panties?

How about disguising it as a discount fashion shop: Kate Mosque? Or as a Disney retail outlet: Mickey Mosque?

Jamie Kilstein has suggested to me that we ban Burger Kings from Ground Zero in honor of the victims of heart disease. But Jamie, the BKs are memorials to remind us that in the eyes of God, all of us - no matter what religion - are just hamburger meat.

"O. Bin Laden" signed Glenn Beck's petition to ban mosques from Ground Zero. Al Qaeda sure as hell doesn't want Muslims and Christians worshipping in amicable proximity.

Several new Christian churches have been welcomed near Ground Zero ... in Hiroshima.

Am I being too kum-ba-yah by suggesting some of the money raised for the mosque go to building a synagogue in Saudi Arabia, rebuilding the Latin Church in Gaza burnt by Hamas kooks, rebuilding the Babri Masjid mosque burnt down by Hindi fascists, rebuild the Hindi temples destroyed by Sinhalese Buddhists, and for Christ's sake, build a bridge, not a wall, to share, not divide, Al-Aksa and the Dome of the Rock?

WWTJD? (What Would Thomas Jefferson Do?)

My own view? I don't want a mosque near Ground Zero; I want it right on top of Ground Zero, in the new tower, so when we go down again, we all go together.

[chuck34]

Jan your article blows things out of proportion a bit. If there had been a mosque there before 9/11 I don't think anyone would have an issue with them re-building it. I know I wouldn't. I think what everyone is up in arms about is the message that is being sent. This sight was chosen for a reason. What is that reason? It sure as hell isn't "peace, tolerance, and understanding".

[Mark in Oshawa]

Before you take your assumptions and ideas to the bank Jan, here is what moderate Islam has to say about the subject in an article by Caroline May:
http://dailycaller.com/2010/08/18/moderate-muslims-oppose-location-of-cordoba-mosque-%E2%80%94-on-religious-grounds/

Nearly 70 percent of Americans oppose building an Islamic house of worship near the site of one of the worst attacks on America — perpetrated in the name of Islam. Some moderate Muslims agree that the proposed location of the Cordoba Mosque near Ground Zero in lower Manhattan should be reconsidered.

Stephen Schwartz, executive director of the Center for Islamic Pluralism, told The Daily Caller that despite their relative silence on the issue, many Muslims question the placement of the mosque.

“This is not a humble Islamic statement. A mosque such as this is actually a political structure that casts a shadow over a cemetery, over hallowed ground. 9/11 was the beginning of a kinetic war, it is not an opportunity for cultural exchange. It was the beginning of a conflict with those who want to destroy our way of life,” Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, president and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, told The Daily Caller.

“I am in no way looking to infringe on First Amendment issues. I approach this as a Muslim that is dedicated to reform,” he said.

Jasser cited the Quranic verse, “Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book [Jews and Christians],” and said that Muslims backing the project should be introspective during this month of Ramadan.

“From sunup to sundown Muslims are fasting and working on putting our needs tertiary to our God and our country, not what we need. They are abandoning these principles and saying, ‘Well, this is what we need and we are victims if you don’t let us do this. And we can do it, so we are going to.’ I think that is un-Islamic. That verse is one that teaches Muslims not only to be respectful but to actually treat equally other religions.”

Schwartz echoed Jasser’s concerns. He highlighted three problems with the project. “First of all, aside from the issues of conflict with jihad, Islam teaches us, especially Muslims living in non-Muslim societies, to avoid conflict with our neighbors,” Schwartz told TheDC. “We think this is an incredibly heedless project. It went forward without adequate planning or foresight, without anticipating reaction and it is absurd to think that there would not have been reaction. It is simply absurd. Second, there is the problem of Imam Feisal’s propensity to mix with radicals. And thirdly, there is a problem with the lack of transparency about money funding.”

According to Schwartz, Muslims are wary of entering the fray: “Muslims are talking but they are talking privately because the issue has become so divisive that Muslims are concerned about backlash and are hesitant to get involved. But people in the community are upset by this. They wonder, ‘How can they do this in such a heedless manner?’ … I really can’t think of anyone else who will speak on the record about this.”

Tarek Fatah, founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress, told TheDC that moderate Muslims have been silent on the matter, despite possible disagreements, due to religious concerns. According to Fatah, however, the need to avoid causing another person pain should trump such conflicts.

“There is a widespread belief among Muslim teaching that anyone who opposes the construction of a mosque, which is the house of God, is committing a sin,” he said. “So a lot of people who want to voice their opinion do not want to become a part of the controversy. But especially during the month of Ramadan it is important that our actions not cause pain to anyone. Any action by a Muslim that causes any pain to anyone else should be halted!”

Fatah believes the mosque plans are moving forward because they have the support of the American government. “I think they have an official green light either from the State Department or the White House telling them to, ‘Go ahead, you have our full backing,’ and they want to use this Islamic center as a place for diplomacy to the Middle East to demonstrate that the United States is a place where Muslims thrive. But that has backfired because this could have been done in many other ways.”

Jasser said that the building of this mosque is ‘fitna,’ a religious term meaning mischief-making, which is severely frowned upon in Islam. “‘Fitna’ is anything that causes chaos in society,” he said. “This mosque is causing chaos, it is causing ‘fitna’ and that is not the Islamic thing to do … This is ‘fitna’ and ‘fitna’ is wrong.”

Fatah agreed saying that ‘fitna’ is an ethical and moral issue that ought not be taken lightly. “If a step taken by an individual causes disharmony then it is ‘fitna.’ [The mosque] has caused so much pain. There are many mosques already in New York, nobody has ever opposed a mosque, if there is opposition to a mosque on grounds of hatred I would be the first to confront it. But over here it is a matter of sensitivity and there is no residential community even near the community center.”

Schwartz said that the idea of trying to heal wounds is a good one, but that the Cordoba Mosque is not the right avenue to do so. “Outreach is a good idea, but outreach should be done in an appropriate time and manner, and this is not the place nor the time nor the manner. Outreach should be done in a setting that doesn’t encourage problems and controversy.”

“We are Americans who happen to be Muslims, not Muslims who happen to be Americans,” Jasser concluded. “And this structure is all backwards. They just want to force Islam upon the American people and it is going to be used around the world, especially in Islamic media. From the ashes of this destruction comes the flourishing of Islam and I think that is just the wrong message. It is not good for America or for Muslims.”

[Robinho]

nice article here http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/23/charlie-brooker-ground-zero-mosque i'd like you to read.

some interesting points - Why is 2 blocks (about 2 mins walk) from ground zero too close?

At what point would it be acceptable to have an Islamic centre in New York? 3 blocks, 5, 10?

Are there other mosques in New York? are they too close?

The owners owned the site and the building before, and can turn it into pretty much whatever they want.

You can either have tolerance and freedom to practice whatever religon you like or have no tolerance and get rid of all religons, or all except the one you want. in which case run out the Buddhists, the hindus, the whatever it is Tom Cruise is into, the Jews and pick your denomination of the Christian church and burn down the rest. that way you can preach all about tolerance without fear of offending anyone!

[harsha]

why should one group be appeased at the cost of the other people's sentiments :?:

[Eki]

why should one group be appeased at the cost of the other people's sentiments :?:
I don't know, but that's the way they removed the racial segregation in the southern US in the 1960s and in South Africa in the 1990s. Before that whites had their places and blacks had their places. Then the blacks were appeased at the cost of the white peoples' sentiments.

[race aficionado]

I don't know, but that's the way they removed the racial segregation in the southern US in the 1960s and in South Africa in the 1990s. Before that whites had their places and blacks had their places. Then the blacks were appeased at the cost of the white peoples' sentiments.

I agree Eki,
And I would clarify . . . . at the cost of some/many of the white people's sentiments. Some I'm sure welcomed the change.

And this would apply to this case too:at the cost of some people sentiments.

I live in the island of Manhattan, it is my home and I am one of those that has no problems with this new Mosque and cultural center in this diverse city.

Think of this concept:

Unity through Diversity.

Pretty cool huh?


:s mokin:

[harsha]

I don't know, but that's the way they removed the racial segregation in the southern US in the 1960s and in South Africa in the 1990s. Before that whites had their places and blacks had their places. Then the blacks were appeased at the cost of the white peoples' sentiments.

two wrongs make a right :?:

just because temples were demolished(in India) and mosques were built on that place , does it give the religious hindu fundamentalists the right to demolish the mosque :?:

[chuck34]

nice article here http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/23/charlie-brooker-ground-zero-mosque i'd like you to read.

some interesting points - Why is 2 blocks (about 2 mins walk) from ground zero too close?

At what point would it be acceptable to have an Islamic centre in New York? 3 blocks, 5, 10?

Outside the debris field would be fine with me, and probably most people. The landing gear busted through the roof of this building.


Are there other mosques in New York? are they too close?

Yes there are other mosques in New York. So that brings up a good question. Are they full, and why does there need to be one there, is there an underserved Muslem community in Lower Manhattan? And no those other moques are not too close.




You can either have tolerance and freedom to practice whatever religon you like or have no tolerance and get rid of all religons, or all except the one you want. in which case run out the Buddhists, the hindus, the whatever it is Tom Cruise is into, the Jews and pick your denomination of the Christian church and burn down the rest. that way you can preach all about tolerance without fear of offending anyone!

Yes, but if you p!ss off 70% of the community that you are supposed to be "outreaching" to, what purpose does that serve?

[Eki]

two wrongs make a right :?:

just because temples were demolished(in India) and mosques were built on that place , does it give the religious hindu fundamentalists the right to demolish the mosque :?:
The Muslims haven't asked to demolish any temples, churches or synagogues in Manhattan. You're comparing apples with oranges when you compare this case with what has been going on in India.

If people judged me based on what Protestant Christians have done for example in Northern Ireland, just because I'm a Protestant, I'd be really pissed off.

[race aficionado]

Yes, but if you p!ss off 70% of the community that you are supposed to be "outreaching" to, what purpose does that serve?


Chuck, where did that number come from?

No body asked me and the latest gallup pole that I saw said something like 32% strongly disapprove.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/142202/disapprove-approve-obama-mosque-remarks.aspx

Whatever the numbers, I do hope that this issue passes and we can focus on more important things that we should get pissed off at: like for example how more and more people around us are suffering from hunger and other unnecessary and avoidable circumstances.

:s mokin:

[BDunnell]

If the people of the USA are so confident of (a) the success of its fight against terrorism and (b) its upholding of freedoms, not least religious ones, they should have no problem with such a development.

[gloomyDAY]

If the people of the USA are so confident of (a) the success of its fight against terrorism and (b) its upholding of freedoms, not least religious ones, they should have no problem with such a development.You're wrong! A retired FDNY firefighter simply stated that we need to utilize some common sense. Build the mosque somewhere else.

I'll even ask politely. Please, Muslims of New York, can you build the mosque somewhere else?
Ok, that should make everyone nice and happy.

[Robinho]

where somewhere else, what is the exact distance away that is ceases to be insensititve, and why?

[BTCC Fan#1]

From Charlie Brooker's article;

Cordoba House, as it's known, is a proposed Islamic cultural centre, which, in addition to a prayer room, will include a basketball court, restaurant, and swimming pool. Its aim is to improve inter-faith relations. It'll probably also have comfy chairs and people who smile at you when you walk in, the monsters.

To get to the Cordoba Centre from Ground Zero, you'd have to walk in the opposite direction for two blocks, before turning a corner and walking a bit more. The journey should take roughly two minutes, or possibly slightly longer if you're heading an angry mob who can't hear your directions over the sound of their own enraged bellowing.


The more I read about this, the more it sounds like a lot of hot-air designed to whip up a bit of election-year frenzy. I read the other day the guy who's bankrolling has been sent round the world by the US Government (both Bush and Obama administrations) on inter-faith 'goodwill' trips designed to show the US isn't hostile towards Muslims..

[chuck34]

Chuck, where did that number come from?

No body asked me and the latest gallup pole that I saw said something like 32% strongly disapprove.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/142202/disapprove-approve-obama-mosque-remarks.aspx

Whatever the numbers, I do hope that this issue passes and we can focus on more important things that we should get pissed off at: like for example how more and more people around us are suffering from hunger and other unnecessary and avoidable circumstances.

:s mokin:

Your poll is about Obama's response, not the mosque itself. Looks like it's 52% of New Yorkers, and 68% of Americans as a whole oppose the mosque being built there.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/New-Yorkers-Oppose-Ground-Zero-Mosque-Poll-97602569.html

"A majority of New Yorkers oppose plans to build a mosque and Muslim cultural center two blocks from Ground Zero, according to a Quinnipiac University Poll released Thursday." "Fifty-two percent of the respondents said they did not want the mosque to be built at all"

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/113747-poll-public-strongly-opposes-ground-zero-mosque-

"A large majority of Americans oppose the construction of a mosque near the Ground Zero site in lower Manhattan, according to a poll released Wednesday." "The CNN/Opinion Research survey showed that 68 percent oppose the plan to build the mosque"

[chuck34]

where somewhere else, what is the exact distance away that is ceases to be insensititve, and why?

For the third time ... How about somewhere that the debris did not land. Is that so offensive? Is that really that hard to grasp? Is it so hard to see why this might be offensive to some people?