R-Classes News

[Sulland]

Thanks for the compliment. :)

We work as a team. I ask the questions and Mirek give the answers. :D

And the rest of us learn - thats the beauty of internet and Forums like this one ! :D

[cali]

And the rest of us learn - thats the beauty of internet and Forums like this one ! :D

Yes indeed ! :D
I'm reading and learning all the time :p

[navtheace]

It would be excellent to see Audi come in with the S3 for an R4 car.

However, it's one of those where Audi will not want to have their cars be second rate to a Fiesta, MINI and DS3 on rallies.

[morganmilan]

This could also be put this way.

Class WRC: 1.6T engine + WRC kit
Class 1: S2000 with 1.6T engine
Class 2: R4 and S2000 with 2.0 NA engine
Class 3: N4
Class 4: RGT
Class 5: A7, S1600, R2C, R3C, R3T and R3D
Class 6: A6, R2B and Kit cars >1400 cm3 – 1600 cm3
Class 7: A5 and Kit cars < 1400 cm3
Class 8: N3
Class 9: N2 and R1B
Class 10: N1 and R1A
It´s one of most useful way of grouping classes I´ve ever seen. Thnx OldF

[navtheace]

Here is a car to rival VW if they come in with their Scirroco as 2 litre turbo FWD.

http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/12/08/renault-shows-off-rallying-megane/

Is it 32mm restrictor for this category? Has somenoe got the link to the FIA PDF which has the rally categories explained showing the restrictor sizes? I think I saw it posted on here earlier?

[OldF]

Here is a car to rival VW if they come in with their Scirroco as 2 litre turbo FWD.

http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/12/08/renault-shows-off-rallying-megane/

Is it 32mm restrictor for this category? Has somenoe got the link to the FIA PDF which has the rally categories explained showing the restrictor sizes? I think I saw it posted on here earlier?

It’s 33 mm from beginning of 2010. Renault is little down with power compared to other N4 but it’s only FWD so 266 bhp is probably enough.

Here. http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regulations/Pages/InternationalSportingCodeA.aspx

Click on “Appendix J (2010) to the International Sporting Code” or this direct link.

Appendix J (2010) to the International Sporting Code (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/wcodj2010?Openform&lang=a)

Article 254 group N, Article 260 group R etc.

[navtheace]

Thanks OldF :)

So today is the announcement day for final R4 regs?

[RICARDO75]

MITSUBISHI LANCER R4 IN MONZA WITH ARMINDO ARAÚJO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcO8qvun-rc

[GTA]

MITSUBISHI LANCER R4 IN MONZA WITH ARMINDO ARAÚJO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcO8qvun-rc

:) Great Car and comming soon to a rally near to you in 2011..

[dimviii]

are you going to prepare a R4 evo?
What are the changes? :rolleyes:

[makinen_fan]

MITSUBISHI LANCER R4 IN MONZA WITH ARMINDO ARAÚJO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcO8qvun-rc

The car look really good, it looks much more alive than a Gr N Lancer. Do you know how much extra power these cars will have? Around 50hp more?

[Mirek]

I think no extra power but some hundred kilograms less.

[RICARDO75]

I think no extra power but some hundred kilograms less.

Words from Armindo Araújo after day one in Monza with the new Lancer R4:
"The car is very difficult to drive. It has plenty of power which makes the car more lively"

[Mirek]

I don't know which restrictor was in the car in Monza but in 2011 it should be same as in Gr.N cars.

[Sulland]

Is Ralliart Italy the only tuner building/developing R4 so far, or are others working on it as well ?

[Motorsportfun]

RalliArt-Italy is the only one working on it, and it looks like European importers will join their budget to give RA-I the status of new "RalliArt Europe"... a reference for them, customers, etc...

[mousti]

Probably Colsoul Rallysport will follow :) . That's still a guess though but history showed that they build new cars very short after the release of a new Lancer .

[navtheace]

So it looks like R4 is all finalised on the rules. With Mit and Subaru ready for 2011?

Is the final decision 33mm or a chance that 34mm will be announced?

[Rallyper]

Is there still classes like the old N2 or N3 classes? And in that case what´s the name? R2N? R3N?

And what about the RXT classes? Is the only difference turbos? E.g. more powered cars with same technical rules but engine? Very much to have control over for the media and spectators. Makes the sport more public, or?? :confused:

[Mirek]

I tried to answer in the other thread where You asked the same: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139968&page=6

[br21]

so R4 with 33mm restrictor, 1300kg minimum weight, plastic windows, etc.

[br21]

Can anybody (Imperatore?) confirm that Ralliart Italy is working on R4 kit only for Lancer Evo X? It means no R4 kit will be available for Evo IX?

[HaCo]

Can anybody (Imperatore?) confirm that Ralliart Italy is working on R4 kit only for Lancer Evo X? It means no R4 kit will be available for Evo IX?

Why don't you sent him a PM?

[aykutbilir]

Can anybody (Imperatore?) confirm that Ralliart Italy is working on R4 kit only for Lancer Evo X? It means no R4 kit will be available for Evo IX?

No R4 kit for Evo IX.

[navtheace]

The 2wd R categories is liked by the British Rally Championship. As they have announced a 2WD only for R categories from 2012.

The 2012 Championship will solely focus on competition with homologated two wheel drive cars up to two litre engine capacity, as well as cars that are still homologated in groups A & N, it includes the new breed of Group R class cars currently produced by Renault, Peugeot, Suzuki, Ford and Citroën. Following discussions with manufacturers it is also known that other marques are expected to homologate two wheel drive cars in 2011 these include Mini and Skoda.

Will other European countries follow with a similiar format?

Just need the world rally championship and IRC to also do this ;)

[modri dirkac]

No R4 kit for Evo IX.

I have heard the same story.

[RICARDO75]

The 2wd R categories is liked by the British Rally Championship. As they have announced a 2WD only for R categories from 2012.

The 2012 Championship will solely focus on competition with homologated two wheel drive cars up to two litre engine capacity, as well as cars that are still homologated in groups A & N, it includes the new breed of Group R class cars currently produced by Renault, Peugeot, Suzuki, Ford and Citroën. Following discussions with manufacturers it is also known that other marques are expected to homologate two wheel drive cars in 2011 these include Mini and Skoda.

Will other European countries follow with a similiar format?

Just need the world rally championship and IRC to also do this ;)

They did this in the 90's with the Kit Cars

[RICARDO75]

PRESS RELEASE For Immediate release 05/01/11

Dulux Trade MSA British Rally Championship

Four wheel drive; over but not out

Following the announcement that the MSA British Rally Championship will only be for two wheel drive cars from 2012, Championship Manger Mark Taylor has pledged that there will be a home for the four wheel drive cars which will be unable to compete in the BRC.

“Outside of the BRC, discussions with competitors and teams are ongoing and there is significant interest in creating a series purely for four wheel drive cars.” he said, “but UK Rally is keen to point out this will not have the British title or indeed conflict with the objectives for the BRC. Instead ideas surrounding a “Masters” series are being drawn up, based on Group A8 and Group B13 four wheel drive cars only.

Whilst the series would in the main be held at rounds of the BRC, the competitors would enter stand alone events, such as the rally held in Northern Ireland for world rally cars in 2010, so as not to conflict with other rallies. It would be featured in the media as a competitive arena for past rally champions and competitors who enjoy their four wheel drive cars, seeking to compete on longer single day events with high media profile and quality television coverage.

Whilst we eagerly await the outcome of the MSA’s review on stage rallying, it is hoped that more details should emerge by Easter 2011.”

[pantealex]

Group R class cars currently produced by Renault, Peugeot, Suzuki, Ford and Citroën. Following discussions with manufacturers it is also known that other marques are expected to homologate two wheel drive cars in 2011 these include Mini and Skoda.

+Honda (Civic R3) and Abarth/Fiat (500 R3T)

[Mirek]

If I have good info, Fabia R2 Max will be homologated at 1st March.

Abarth also Punto R3D ;) No Suzuki in Gr.R, I think.

[CWJ]

Who has some more / last info for R-GT?

PM welcome. Thx.

[navtheace]

It certainly looks like R categories is bringing things comparable to GpA days. If other European countries follow Brit Rally Champ. It could well slow the privateer market for wrc & s2000 works cars.

prodrive and m sport will not like this, as who will buy their ex works cars?

[Mirek]

Other countries won't go that way. It's pretty much a suicide. General public will simply ignore BRC and what is it good for when there is no publicity, no public interest? People want to see something special, very exciting. But with FWD cars it's possible only in high speed places where most of common spectators doesn't go and only with top drivers. It's not a long time a go when thousands of spectators disappeared from our stages after ban of WRC cars. Even 4WD Gr.N cars were simply too slow and boring for keeping them. Situation started to improve slowly with S2000 cars but it's still nowhere near the crazy times of early 2000'.

[Rallyper]

Other countries won't go that way. It's pretty much a suicide. General public will simply ignore BRC and what is it good for when there is no publicity, no public interest? People want to see something special, very exciting. But with FWD cars it's possible only in high speed places where most of common spectators doesn't go and only with top drivers. It's not a long time a go when thousands of spectators disappeared from our stages after ban of WRC cars. Even 4WD Gr.N cars were simply too slow and boring for keeping them. Situation started to improve slowly with S2000 cars but it's still nowhere near the crazy times of early 2000'.

Spot on Mirek. The british association is crazy! You can´t stop development.

[navtheace]

The R cars will still be developed.

They are still fast and competitive. It could be a positive move in that it brings rally cars closer to the road cars. Which is of interest to all the car dealers who sell them.

It will be interesting to see how it goes for BRC with just 2WD R category cars. There is a lot of for and against of the BRC doing this though on the british rally forum.

[Sulland]

Strange that UK do not follow the R Class concept in total and include R4 as the top class.
Do anyone know why ?

The UK have gone in this direction once before, in the 90s or something, where F2 kit cars was top class - and that was not a huge success if I remember correct.

[OldF]

R4 rules are published. The R4 rules are part of article 260 on pages 24-26.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/C607AC321E6BA198C125780F003E242A/$FILE/260%20%2811-12%29.pdf

[navtheace]

Remember that BRC went to F2 back in an era when many manufacturers had their 4wd turbo road cars as GpA & N rally cars. Things are different now.

Is it 33mm for R4 ?

[OldF]

Is it 33mm for R4 ?


Yes.

[Rallyper]

Strange that UK do not follow the R Class concept in total and include R4 as the top class.
Do anyone know why ?

The UK have gone in this direction once before, in the 90s or something, where F2 kit cars was top class - and that was not a huge success if I remember correct.

And look what they breeded in good rallydrivers since then. How many? None of WRC-top driver caliber.

[Mirek]

The R cars will still be developed.

They are still fast and competitive. It could be a positive move in that it brings rally cars closer to the road cars. Which is of interest to all the car dealers who sell them.

Just a question. Do You follow rallies live on stages?


Remember that BRC went to F2 back in an era when many manufacturers had their 4wd turbo road cars as GpA & N rally cars. Things are different now.

F2 was pure opposite to what You want to see. F2 cars were pure competition specially built machines. They were even further from stock cars than S2000.

[Sulland]

The Fiat 500 needs a 1600 R3T, in addition to the 1400 engine !

[Hartusvuori]

From Tommi Mäkinen Racing's newsletter:

Subaru Impreza R4 will make its competition debut in Finland in the first summer round of FRC. Joonas Lindroos will drive it Vanajalinna rally in late May.

Testing of R4 parts will start this week in England. R4 parts will be homologated in early March.

http://www.ralli.net/kaikkiuutiset/ralli/6276-maekinen-povaa-lindroosia-mestariksi

[Sulland]

In googlish; http://translate.google.no/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ralli.net%2Fkaikkiuut iset%2Fralli%2F6276-maekinen-povaa-lindroosia-mestariksi&sl=fi&tl=no&hl=&ie=UTF-8

[Bobcat]

Olivier Quesnel: "Concerning the competition/client department we’re interested in a possible ‘FIA R4’ set of regulations, which will help to develop R3-type cars with 4-wheel drive. It would be a fantastic tool for training young drivers.”

[navtheace]

Is this Citroen saying there is a possibility of a 4wd road car so it can become R category ?

[Hartusvuori]

Jari Ketomaa tested the new Subaru Impreza R4 in England on Wednesday and Thursday. His first impressions are that R4 is a distinct leap forward from N4.

Testing contract would allow him to start rallies with Impreza R4, but the contract doesn't rule out rallying in other makes. Ketomaa says he's constantly negoating to drive WRC rallies.

Googlish article (http://translate.google.fi/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ralli.net%2Fkaikkiuutiset%2Fral li%2F6294-jari-ketomaa-kaeynnisti-subarun-uuden-ralliauton-testit-englannissa)

[alleskids]

Citroen plans to R4
Racing for Citroën was the development of DS3 R3 is a complete success. This will be repeated with an R4 model.
Anyone who is successful in sport can celebrate victories in the series. With 2,000 units sold, the DS3 Racing Racing Citroën a real hit. "The cars were sold in just a few days," enthused sports director Olivier Quesnel, the troops of the special model is the sportiest DS3 laid the keel. "Now we think, to increase its annual production."

In the forging of Citroën rally there at the moment sunshine. The DS3 R3 is not just the sporty spearhead in its class has become the sales figures give cause for joy. "We're way above what we expected," says Quesnel further. "We are proud of the success of the DS3 R3, for which we have created with the Citroën Racing Trophies across Europe a platform."

Quesnel further reveals that the R3 is soon to follow an R4 model. "With the success of the DS3 Racing we would also assume like other model of the DS series. What enters the customer sport we are very interested in the" interested FIA R4 "Regulations". This should be possible to provide R3-model SUV. It is a fantastic training tool for young drivers would result. "

http://www.rallye-magazin.de/h/schlagzeilen/archiv/d15/d/2011/01/24/citroen-plant-r4/index.html

[HaCo]

Funny translation: SUV R3? :p

[alleskids]

The Mini Countryman is a SUV, is it not? :D

[Bobcat]

I think a DS4 hybrid with the PSA/MINI 1.6-litre turbo and 4WD (..."an electric motor with 95bhp to the back wheels"), or not? http://www.carsuk.net/citroen-ds4-racing-ds4-sport-planned-for-2013/

[Co-driven]

I've seen some in-car footage of the DS3 R3T and saw that the gears are changed through a paddle shift. Is that correct?

[Mirek]

Yes, it's electro-pneumatic system. Honda homologated it a year a go also.

[Co-driven]

Ok Mirek, thanks for your answer.

The new WRC's doesn't have paddle shifts anymore, right? I just thought that the other classes wouldn't have either...

[Mirek]

Yes, they don't have it but it's not forbidden as far as I know. What is forbidden is use of hydraulics (which doesn't have sense with no center differential anyway). I understood the situation the way that it is possible to homologate paddle shift system but under such conditions that no manufacturer fulfilled them.

[GTA]

Document with R4 info for Evo from Ralliart Italy..!

http://www.imperatore-rally-racing.com/index.php?page=Doc137

[OldF]

I suppose the Mitsubishi will have longer suspension travelling with the new kit but how much?

[OldF]

I listened yesterday to Total Rally broadcast from last week and there was some talk about R4.

The guy interviewed (George Donaldson, STI, general manager of motorsport projects or something like that) said that they (Subaru and Mitsubishi) didn’t get all they were asking for (I got the impression that it was the manufacturers commission that was the last barrier). The R4 regulations were confirmed to the manufacturers about 10-11th of December.

Anyway, he said that the feedback from the test drivers (Patrik Flodin and Jari Ketomaa) was positive. The R4 was more stable and had better traction compared to a N4 that is quite soft.

One thing his worried about was the weight. He said that they can’t get down to the minimum 1300 kg because of the allowance of the regulations.

It was also mentioned that Renault is exited about the R4 kit for their Megane.

[navtheace]

What are the prices for a new R4 Impreza or Evo 10 now?

With the Megane, will that be a FWD R4 car?

[Mirek]

R4 FWD is not allowed in the moment, only 4WD according to the rules. Evo X is 26 thousand Euro R4 Kit (for rebuild of N4 car, not stock car). It's already posted four posts above by GTA.

[Mirek]

Fabia R2 was presented today. Car is already homologated, some will run in Valašská rally this month.

Price is set to 62 thousand Euro for complete car.

Engine 1.6 16V
Power 132kW/180Hp @ 7500 rpm
Torque 194Nm @ 5500 rpm
Electronics Magneti-Marelli
Gearbox 5-speed sequential Sadev
Suspension Reiger

[PLuto]

As said Mirek, presentation of the team is today. During the day we can expect photos from this press session (article - http://www.autosport.cz/clanek.php?cl=11855)

http://www.autosport.cz/img/clanky/b_b403fe1c956d5f7a001de6405a9c27d8.jpg

[uranium]

Fabia R2 je určena širokému spektru amatérských závodních jezdců
To be honest 60ke is exactly "amateur" price...

[Sulland]

Fabia R2 was presented today. Car is already homologated, some will run in Valašská rally this month.

Price is set to 62 thousand Euro for complete car.

Engine 1.6 16V

Power 132kW/180Hp @ 7500 rpm
Torque 194Nm @ 5500 rpm
Electronics Magneti-Marelli
Gearbox 5-speed sequential Sadev
Suspension Reiger

62 000 €, will they be able to sell cars for that, if the Fiesta is 40 000 for a complete car and the C2 Max kit is 34 000 ?

How much is a R3 Clio access ?
The Fabia sounded expensive to me ?

[Mirek]

Yes, it is expensive, hopefully the performance justify the price. Anyway they are not able to produce tons of them in Impromat Motorsport, so they can't go to low price. But we'll see what future brings...

[tolis]

Hi Mirek!!! Any confirmed for Valasska rally?

[Mirek]

Sorry, I can't say the names on public ;)

[tolis]

Sorry, I can't say the names on public ;)
ok!!! Do you the number of them? Thanks!!! ;)

[Mirek]

I know about two.

[N.O.T]

i think with such a price it will have the future of the fabia kit car.....

[PLuto]

I dont think so. Problem for Fabia Kit Car was missing international homologation...

[markf8691]

Just watched the Monte Carlo Eurosport review again and at the end of it they have an interview with George Donaldson, who is talking about the R4 regulations and he mentions that later on in the year they plan on having a team out out there along with a partner and some top drivers, can anybody elaborate on this? Subaru planning to run a team with R4 cars?

[Mirek]

Toshi Arai - Corse, Acores, Mecsek, Scotland, Cyprus
Fumio Nutahara - Acores, Scotland, Cyprus

Both in Yokohama colors with Impreza R4 so it's probably that team.

[Mirek]

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/189376_1473886425818_1793425212_888430_7640084_n.j pg

[PLuto]

Photogallery from tests of Skoda Fabia R2 - http://www.autosport.cz/clanek.php?cl=11880

http://www.autosport.cz/img/clanky/405b4703a1208be7d298c57c74a1f08f.jpg

[dimviii]

Flodin about sti r4 + video

http://www.rallybuzz.com/subaru-impreza-r4-irc-2011/

[OldF]

Thanks Dimviii,

It was nice to see (and of course to hear) the comments of the drivers who’s did the test. The test drivers’ comments about this R4 improvement are encouraging.

I don’t think this test was about speed, moreover about the handling of the car. Let’s see how the R4 will cope with the S2000?

[GTA]

Ralliart Italy just Finished another 2 days of testing in Italy with Michal Kosciuszko driving the Lancer R4 EVO IX and EVO X, the results are very Positive.!!

[Sulland]

Ralliart Italy just Finished another 2 days of testing in Italy with Michal Kosciuszko driving the Lancer R4 EVO IX and EVO X, the results are very Positive.!!

Is this the same kit: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90472 ?

[GTA]

you can Read all about the R4 Kit and Development on this link:

http://www.ralliart.it/r4_uk.htm

[sindroms]

Ketomaa has entered "BTA Rally Talsi 2011" (14.-15.05., 3rd round of Latvian Rally Championship) on Mitsubishi Evo 10 R4 prepared by MML-Sports.
http://autorally.lv/2011/?pid=3&lng=en&id=5

[dimviii]

you can Read all about the R4 Kit and Development on this link:

http://www.ralliart.it/r4_uk.htm

we have already read this article.Something more except prices?Have you measure difference between r4 and not r4 cars?

[GTA]

we have already read this article.Something more except prices?Have you measure difference between r4 and not r4 cars?


Like i write before: Ralliart Italy just Finished another 2 days of testing in Italy with Michal Kosciuszko driving the Lancer R4 EVO IX and EVO X, the results are very Positive.!!

Ralliart Italy is constantly testing in Italy with Gr N and R4 cars. Test results will be posted when available.

[Rally Hokkaido]

I understood that R4 regulations only applied to current model of each manufacturer, so has Ralliart Italy homologated a kit for Evo IX, as well?

[GTA]

Yes Ralliart Italy has exclusively Homologated the R4 EVO IX.

[dimviii]

Like i write before: Ralliart Italy just Finished another 2 days of testing in Italy with Michal Kosciuszko driving the Lancer R4 EVO IX and EVO X, the results are very Positive.!!

Ralliart Italy is constantly testing in Italy with Gr N and R4 cars. Test results will be posted when available.

Thanks Jack!
any photos of the uprated parts,specially the subframes,rods,trailing arms?
Thanks in advance.

[HaCo]

This is the reason why Boon in Fabia R2 did not make it to the finish in Wallonie last weekend and also didn't take home R2 victory in front of C2 and Twingo (Princen!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjEJF4vJrYU&feature=player_embedded

[Mirek]

Impromat Motorsport started Fabia R2 website: http://www.fabiar2.com/ENG

[OldF]

Nice spare part list where the serial parts and the kit parts are clearly separated.

[OldF]

62 000 €, will they be able to sell cars for that, if the Fiesta is 40 000 for a complete car and the C2 Max kit is 34 000 ?

How much is a R3 Clio access ?
The Fabia sounded expensive to me ?

I got curious about the differences in the prices. The calculations took some time to make these calculations but here are my results.

A complete Fiesta R2 from M-Sport is 48.955 € (exchange rate 0,87) and a complete Citroen C2 R2 Max is 58.000 € and a Skoda R2 62.000 €. What should be considered is also what one gets for a certain price.

The contest of the different kits are quite different and it’s difficult to compare the kits, so I did a counting of items (rows) from spare parts lists with similar contests to compare “what do you get for the price”.

The only kit a know for sure is the Fiesta’s kit and it include about 340 items. The Renault Twingo R2 kit has about 310 items and the Skoda Fabia R2 kit has about 490 items.

Calculating the average price per item gives the following results:

Fiesta: 123 € / item
Twingo: 148 € / item
Fabia: 141 € / item

Pity that Citroen don’t have similar spare parts list as the others one, so I couldn’t do the calculations of the items for Citroen. But anyway looking at the average price per item, the Skoda is not so expensive despite of the high price for a complete car.

For a comparison the price per item for a Renault Clio R3 is 163 € / item and has 605 items in a similar kit.

[mousti]

That the Fabia and C2 cost more is without calculating average price per item is not even bad because they are the best R2's on the market now. Fiesta and Twingo having not power/speed of the Fabia and C2 in my oppinion.

[OldF]

That’s true. The most powerful R2 is the C2 Max with 190 bhp, the second one C2 Base with 185 bhp, third is Fiesta with 168 bhp (with 97 octane fuel) and finally the last one Twingo with 160 bhp.

[mousti]

Fabia can't be far away from that 190 of the Max..

[GTA]

I think we all need to give the Mitsubishi and Subaru R4 project's some time.

Its very easy to say that they do not perform close to the S2000 (http://www.motorsportforums.com/showwiki.php?title=S2000)... but time will tell and when the Complete R4's will be running in full spec it could be a different story after all.

[Mirek]

A dyno of C2 Max which I saw was I think 185 Hp and 180 Nm. Fabia is 180 Hp and 194 Nm. Overall Fabia engine rews less than C2. Also there is shorter gearing available for Fabia. Shortest gearbox for C2 is 175 km/h, for Fabia 161 km/h.

For Fiesta I saw somewhere a dyno with 173 Hp.

[OldF]

Fabia can't be far away from that 190 of the Max..

Oh s**t, I forgot the Fabia. 180bph.

[Sulland]

I feel I have read somewhere that the max config of the c2 will be banned. Is that correct?

Was'nt the fabia 168 hp when it came ?

30 hp btw the two French C2's that must be quite a lot per km ss !

[Mirek]

No, Fabia is 180 Hp since the start. Stronger engine is in development.

[Gordini]

Why is the Renault so much less on power?

[urabus-denoS2000]

Why is the Renault so much less on power?

It's used as a cup car , so not meant to compete with the C2 Max . However it would be nice to see a Maxi version of the Twingo , just to show Citroen who is the king in small pocket rockets ;)

[OldF]

Subaru R4 homologation forms.

http://www.sti.jp/e/competitor/r4_homologation/data/2010/n5732/N5732_0501_VR4.pdf

Looks like Subaru have the R4 suspension arms only for rear suspension.

[mousti]

It's used as a cup car , so not meant to compete with the C2 Max . However it would be nice to see a Maxi version of the Twingo , just to show Citroen who is the king in small pocket rockets ;)

In Ypres there's one Fabia starting with one big talented driver to kick al those C2 R2 Max's there ass!

[OldF]

Updated homologation form (http://www.sti.jp/e/competitor/r4_homologation/data/2010/n5732/N5732_0602_VR4.pdf) for the Subaru R4 and also a spare parts catalogue (http://www.sti.jp/e/competitor/r4_parts/pdf/r4_partscatalog.pdf).

With quite small changes there seems to be a way increase the suspension stroke in the front.

George Donaldson explains the Subaru R4 kit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXReUebiXoI&feature=relmfu) with Colin Clark.

30-40 oC cooler air under the bonnet mean cooler air to the intake and more power.

[ProRally]

Also PG will drive TMR build R4 in Finland !!!

[Gregor-y]

Did Subaru reduce the front suspension travel with the latest Impreza? I know the rear must have suffered with the switch to wishbones which required the drastic elongation pieces. The catalog didn't mention engine and transmission mounts though they are listed on the homologation form. I'd like to see how much they changed from the harder-than-stock rubber mounts that they used to use.

[Sulland]

Are there any changes planned for any of the R Classes for 2012 ?

[OldF]

Now also the Twingo should be competitive with the other R2s.

190 bhp & 180 Nm

Renault Sport | Twingo R.S. R2 | News (http://www.renault-sport.com/en/rally/twingo_r2/news.php?news=154643.html)

[Gordini]

Hope the Twingo R2 evo will beat Fabia and Reanult best in also R2

[Mirek]

Don't worry, Fabia will never become something like C2R2. I don't think Impromat can make more than twenty Fabias per year. It's small company.

[Ucci]

Interesting article:

Peugeot plant den nächsten Schritt*:: rallye-magazin.de (http://www.rallye-magazin.de/rallyes/int/nachrichten/news-detail/d/2011/12/03/peugeot-plant-den-naechsten-schritt/index.html)

Peugeot made a commitment about future plans with the new 208-they will homologate (01.01.2013) the 208, which will meet the requirements for RT4 rules. They expect a bit powerful engines as today's S2000, but on the other hand lower costs for other parts of the car. The price should be between 150-180.000 Eur. The same technology would be also used in the sister-company Citroen for the car on the DS3 basis.
But let's wait for the final publication of RT4 class.
Interesting piece of information from Frederic Bertrand-until today Peugeot Sport sold 99 P207 S2000 cars. And still they have three orders on the table.

[Mirek]

I heard R4T will have 32 mm restrictor. If the engine is otherwise same spec. like in DS3 R3T, the R4T power could be something around 290 Hp.

[cut full]

the concept of r4t sounds interesting to me. basically the same idea, of making top rallying cheaper, as the naturally aspired s2000 car rule. and that rule was a good one in my oppinion. sadly the cars got not as "cheap" as in the basic idea. so I'm looking forward that the r4t rules don't cost more than aprox. 160-180k. In that case maybe other manufacturers than peugeot, citroen and skoda see themselves able to createl a car of that category. maybe renault, ford, fiat?

I wonder that psa is going to create a direct rival in the same class since 307/xsara in wrc some years ago.

[Ucci]

the concept of r4t sounds interesting to me. basically the same idea, of making top rallying cheaper, as the naturally aspired s2000 car rule. and that rule was a good one in my oppinion. sadly the cars got not as "cheap" as in the basic idea. so I'm looking forward that the r4t rules don't cost more than aprox. 160-180k. In that case maybe other manufacturers than peugeot, citroen and skoda see themselves able to createl a car of that category. maybe renault, ford, fiat?

I wonder that psa is going to create a direct rival in the same class since 307/xsara in wrc some years ago.
IMHO this is different story as it was with Xsara/307. New DS3 RT4 & 208 will be cars for customers, there will be not direct factory engagement.

[HaCo]

How nice, a Yaris R1:
http://www.autonews-magazine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/meeting-yaris-092.jpg
Autonews Magazine » Allerlei Andere » Toyota stelt voor: de Yaris (http://www.autonews-magazine.com/blognl/?p=13802)

[Mirek]

IMHO this is different story as it was with Xsara/307. New DS3 RT4 & 208 will be cars for customers, there will be not direct factory engagement.

Plus in those times Citroën and Peugeot Sport departments were different but now there is only one.

[cut full]

as we all know already, peugeot 208 r2 is coming soon. :)

World Rally Blog » Peugeot announces R2 and R4T versions of 208 » World Rally Blog (http://www.worldrallyblog.com/2012/02/13/news/peugeot-announces-r2-and-r4t-versions-of-208/)

after I saw the first pics of building up the car I ask myself (and you specialists) what the tube, welded in under the rear sidewindow, is for. It looks like the one in the sidesill for the jack, but in that hight?? what do you think?

another question is, if there is any regulation in r2 rules about the rim diameter. always 16 inch? if the 208 1.6 street version is rolling on 17 inch, the r2 is also allowed to?

is the enginebase used in c2 r2 simillar to that which is coming in 208 r2?

[Mirek]

The tube is for refueling in flight :D Seriously I don't know, it's strange...

Yes, all R2 maximum 16" rims.

I think that the engine is basically same for C2 R2 and 208 R2 but it's only a guessing.

[HarriK]

http://www.feline208.net/media/gallery/peugeot-208-r2/peugeot-208-r2-1-001.jpg

same pipe is on the both sides...

http://www.feline208.net/media/gallery/peugeot-208-r2/peugeot-208-r2-1-002.jpg

[navtheace]

What's the latest with R classes?

[navtheace]

The FIA should make the WRC just the R Classes. As the new era of road cars is starting...

That is 4WD = Petrol engine to front wheels and electric motors to rear.

Cutting out these special world rally car and S2000 classes nicely.

R1, 2, 3, 4 and GT classes is potentially the way forward for both road and rallying.

[Mirek]

Get back to Earth, sir. These "4WD" systems are nothing but a part-time support. 99% of time it works as simple FWD. The only reason why they want to use it is that it's cheaper than Haldex etc. For rallying in current state of development it has a value close to zero.

[wrchirek]

In category 5, most cars are DS3 R3T and Clio R3. Can the Abarth 500 R3T be as fast as the French cars?
DS3 R3T is 210 HP, 350 Nm, 1230 kg, Abarth 500 R3T is 180 HP and 300 Nm (because it is only 1400 ccm), but 1080 kg!

I haven't seen anybody who tried the Abarth on a WRC event.

[Mirek]

DS3 R3 is much stronger. 210 Hp is with stock fuel I think. I heard it has around 230-240 Hp. Abarth 500 is a cup car, not so developed as DS3.

[cut full]

abarth 500 has the problem of short wheelbase + narrow track + the construction of rear suspension is not made for gravel and rough surface. so I think even if the engine would be as strong as ds3 r3 it would no chance.

[wrchirek]

Thank you guys. And how is the 500 compared to a C2R2?

[Abarth]

What is the best R2 car of 2012

[N.O.T]

C2 R2 max still...

[Sulland]

Pls a link to the test of the 208 R2?

[N.O.T]

visit news and rumours thread...post 8758

[cut full]

are there any news of development on 208 r2? when will the car be available? I cant wait to see this machine beating contenders :D

[HaCo]

Some toyota info: we've been to TMG HQ in Cologne to see Toyota's new... on Twitpic (http://twitpic.com/9c4ybf)

[Barreis]

It seems that R classes are waste - very expensive and not that quick as A/N cars.

[Gordini]

Agree. But still new classes,,and few used cars yet. Hope for R5 to be success on price.

[Mirek]

It seems that R classes are waste - very expensive and not that quick as A/N cars.

That's nonsense. Gr.R cars can be seeded in gr.A/N as well. There is very little difference between full A7/R3C, A6/R2B, N2/R1B etc. They are not more expensive than comparable modern cars. In comparison of R3C/S1600 it is exactly opposite. For example C2R2 is less expensive to run than Felicia Kit Car or Saxo Kit Car. Clio R3 is also less expensive to run than Clio S1600.


Agree. But still new classes,,and few used cars yet. Hope for R5 to be success on price.

Maybe few models but it's hundreds of cars built to date under Gr.R regulations. For example there around 300 of Clios R3, maybe even more C2R2. Sure more than hundred of Fiestas R2, Twingo R2 and R1. Dozens of 207 R3T, DS3 R3T (maybe close to hundred already) or Civics R3 (I believe over 50 built). Than some Puntos R3D, 500 R3T, Fabia R2, Fiesta R1. I probably forgot some.

[Barreis]

Price of evo 9 group N is up to 50k euros and ds3 r3 costs 90k?! N4 is quicker and cheaper to run.

[N.O.T]

Price of evo 9 group N is up to 50k euros and ds3 r3 costs 90k?!

difference is that those 50K euros have a lot of slack depending the parts you use.... the 90K of the R are somewhat standard.

[Barreis]

Didn't see anywhere results where r3 won infront of n4 evo 9. Especially on gravel.

[Mirek]

Price of evo 9 group N is up to 50k euros and ds3 r3 costs 90k?! N4 is quicker and cheaper to run.

Again the same stupid comparison of old car non-competitive in its class (for 50 thousand it will be far from top condition) with a new car which can win its (completely different) class. It's meaningless. Plus You don't compare maintenance and running cost which is far more important.

[cut full]

I agree with Mirek. There are cars for nearly every budget. One advantage is that r classes cars are nicely developed from factory departments or other specialist. so you get a car that works perfect in every detail. If you wish that, there are also special option parts available like protection or lightweight parts. imo the costs are justified.

another advantage is the marketing. spectators and fans (=customers) look at rallyecars that look equal to roadcars that they are able to buy. no wide body and spoilers as on s1600 cars for example.

the only thing to criticise is, that there are no cars that are equal (performance/cost) to former n3 class. there are only r3/r2 for A7/A6 and r1 for n2. am I rigth?

[Mirek]

Yes, You are right. The philosophy of gr.R classes is a bit different than of gr.A/N. Basically in old system for all capacity there was both gr.A and gr.N option (N1/A5, N2/A6, N3/A7) but in new classes it is made that the higher the capacity the more competition upgrades so some of old classes are not included in the new system - A5 or N3. Equivalents would be R3A and R1C but these doesn't exist in regulations.

The closest to A5 is therefore R2B but it makes little sense to homologate 1400 ccm car in 1600 ccm class. The closest to N3 is R2C but no such car was homologated to date.

[Juha_Koo]

For example C2R2 is less expensive to run than Felicia Kit Car or Saxo Kit Car. Clio R3 is also less expensive to run than Clio S1600.

By how much, any estimates?

[Mirek]

A friend told me exact sums some time a go when they switched from Felicia Kit Car to C2R2 but frankly I forgot exact numbers. I can ask another guy who did the same last year but I will meet him probably only in Rally Český Krumlov in late May...

But it wasn't only about sums of money. The big problem for old cars is not enough spare parts and no factory support. So basically You need to have many parts produced just for Yourself and that takes a lot of time and is very expensive compared to simple order from factory deposits.

[aykutbilir]

N4 is quicker and cheaper to run.

Yes for sure quicker but cheaper to run? you sure? :) I dont. It can be expensive to run a Lancer Evo or Impreza if ur a top player for class.

[Barreis]

All drivers here and know everything about this... :D

[aykutbilir]

All drivers here and know everything about this... :D

Not knowing everything for sure but I have long experince on N4 cars :) and their expence as a co-driver.

[pantealex]

Evo IX (9) homologation ends 2014, so after that no international rallies with it.

[Mirek]

It can be prolonged.

[aykutbilir]

To be honest a top N4 like Lancer Evo IX with international spec starts from 75-80.000 euros. Of course with a decent dogbox, ralliart stuff and reiger's plus motec and else.
And this car only purchased used. No new. Probably 5-6 years old.

On the other hand R class cars have the same bill but they are brand new with factory support and still under improvemnt. DS3 R3T is turbo charged so its maintance will be higher to C2 R2 or Fiesta R2. But as we can see world goes back to two wheels. As the good old times of Kitcars, S1600. I remember that Renault Sport has the price comparison between Clio S1600 and R3 on his website.

And as tommeke_B said there are differences between same brand cars. Most of C2 R2 Max's didnt match. some are Max some are mini Max :) you all know what i mean :D

[Sulland]

What class will be next in the Fiesta saga? They need something btw R2 and WRC/RRC.
Will it be a R3T or R4T/R5?

[pantealex]

What class will be next in the Fiesta saga? They need something btw R2 and WRC/RRC.
Will it be a R3T or R4T/R5?
New Fiesta ST is 1.6T, so probably R3

[navtheace]

What is the specification on the rumour for R5 category?

[N.O.T]

where is this rumour from ?

[Mirek]

208 R2 with Neuville and Breen. From what I've seen so far I think (sorry NOT) that this car is going to be the top R2 on stages. Everything just looks better than with other cars...

http://youtu.be/R3uPxa7yTqY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=R3uPxa7yTqY)

[N.O.T]

The peugot so far looks like an R3 car as far as speed go...they must have made some huge advancements in engine technology... the other r2s will look like nothing.

[dimviii]

The peugot so far looks like an R3 car as far as speed go...they must have made some huge advancements in engine technology... the other r2s will look like nothing.

to me looks very far from r3.

[navtheace]

where is this rumour from ?

http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/149147-how-do-you-see-future-rally-14.html

[Mirek]

You didn't get it. R5 is no rumor so why do You call it like that?

[navtheace]

You didn't get it. R5 is no rumor so why do You call it like that?

Ok, so it is not a rumour.

What is the current R category list ?

[Mirek]

R1: R1a, r1b
r2: R2b, r2c
r3: R3c, r3d, r3t
r4
r5

[navtheace]

R1: R1a, r1b
r2: R2b, r2c
r3: R3c, r3d, r3t
r4
r5

Thanks :)

Is R5 to be the official name for R-GT ?

[N.O.T]

what about r6 and r7 rumours ?

[pucky54]

You forgot R8, there is already a car available for this class....Audi R8

[Mirek]

Thanks :)

Is R5 to be the official name for R-GT ?

No, sorry, I forgot R-GT. R5 is going to be a replacement for S2000 - 4x4 1.6T Kit Car. Several cars are already under development.

[N.O.T]

You forgot R8, there is already a car available for this class....Audi R8

yes this should replace the WRC... but first make it 53 hp and 2000 kg much cheaper and safer...

[Dug83]

Is the 208 r2 going to be like the Twingo Evo(190 hp) and be more powerful than the Fiesta R2(160 hp)?

[Mirek]

I think the 208 R2 could/should be at least 200hp... C2Max has 200hp (some claim their cars have 205hp).

I don't believe in 200+ Hp for a second. But of course You can measure whatever You want...

[OldF]

Some info about Peogeot 208 R2.


Calendar for 2012, Homologation in July and ready for delivery in November.
Peugeot Sport - RALLYE - presentation-21-1-208-r2 (http://www.peugeot-sport.com/en/rallye/presentation-21-1-208-r2.html)

Technical.
Peugeot Sport - RALLYE - presentation-21-2-technical-regeneration (http://www.peugeot-sport.com/en/rallye/presentation-21-2-technical-regeneration.html)

Sales. The kit (gravel or tarmac) 37.500 €. Complete car 57.500 €.
Peugeot Sport - RALLYE - presentation-21-3-sales (http://www.peugeot-sport.com/en/rallye/presentation-21-3-sales.html)

Technical data.
http://www.peugeot-sport.com/ressource/document/437/4fa3ebd4026ef.pdf

[mousti]

Meeke has tested the 208 too..

[dimviii]

Meeke has tested the 208 too..
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/166076_10150934633242860_21496570_n.jpg

[Sulland]

Is Meeke onboard the 208 team as testdriver for the R5 - would make sense!

[AndyRAC]

When did Meeke test it? And I notice it has Sarrazin's name on the car - does he still have a contract with PeugeotSport?? I think his drive with Toyota at Le Mans is just a one off.

[mousti]

Last week they did.

[A FONDO]

Meeke can be helpful for the crash tests

[Mirek]

When did Meeke test it? And I notice it has Sarrazin's name on the car - does he still have a contract with PeugeotSport?? I think his drive with Toyota at Le Mans is just a one off.

Sarrazin did Tour de Corse in 208 R2 as zero car.

[Pinto]

Meeke can be helpful for the crash tests

Cop on will ya

[noel157]

Is Meeke onboard the 208 team as testdriver for the R5 - would make sense!

It would indeed make sense......................................

[A FONDO]

Craig Breen will drive 208 R2 as 0 car in a local british rally with Paul Nagle. Also in San Remo, Du var and some other rallies. The car should run about 8000 more test kilometers until final release in November.

[navtheace]

What are the main rules for an R5 car?

[Sulland]

Easily said: a simple 4wd system, and an R3T (non DI) with a bigger restrictor.

[navtheace]

So another special category that will become too expensive?

R5 should be 2wd by the engine and the other two wheels driven by electric motors if the road car features it of course.

Citroen have 4WD hybrid like this I think? BMW also working on a car, so is VW and other manufacturers.

[Mirek]

The current hybrid 4WD are just a mockup of real 4WD. It's marketing stunt which obviously work as You believe in it...

Those cars You speak about are simple 2WD with a part-time availability of pseudo-4WD. The problem is that front and rear wheel drive are not connected and the electric engine for the helping function is just too weak. If You for example stand in a hill and the front (combustion engine powered) axle looses all traction You have only the electric engine in the rear to move all the car which in some cases is not enough to move the car at all (in steep uphill for example)! It also has not enough battery capacity to use the electric rear axle for reasonable time (don't know if cooling allows that anyway). It's just helping system for occasional troubles of common users, nothing more.

None of those cars is electric powered full 4WD car with combustion engine working only as generator which is the only way how this could work for permanent use (basically like in a diesel-electric railroad engine). For WRC use there is also big question of reliability and safety of the electric systems in WRC conditions. It's not F1 or Le Mans but there are water splashes, mud, sand etc. everywhere.

I heard next year Tom Coronel will try to finish Dakar in full-electric variant of McRae buggy. Than we'll see if the electric systems can survive use in real tough conditions (not speaking about the need to change batteries in stages).

If You believe that design of WRC-suitable hybrid or electric system is cheaper than the S2000 You are very very naive. Absolutely no way. Plus with full electric cars You would have to change the format of rallies completely to allow them changing batteries between stages (likely to forbid very long stages at all).

[OldF]

Provisional group5 regulations has been published 20.7.2012.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/9974A7AA054F1E88C1257A400055BFA5/$FILE/PROVISIONAL-261%20(2013)-(15.06.2012).pdf

I started to wonder if the rear suspension is going to be original (front and rear axle suspension). I couldn’t find any mention of modification of the rear ala S2000 & WRC. If the car has a torsion beam rear suspension, is there room for the prop shaft? Some modification must probably also be made to the body shell to make room for the rear diff.

Summary of homologations allowed as VR5 homologations:

Min weight 1200 kg

Engine:
Engine & gearbox mountings
Turbocharger
Turbo speed sensor
The maximum boost pressure will be 2,5 bar * *subject to additional tests
Supercharging air exchanger: Original or homologated in VR5
Maximum ratio: 10,5:1
Pistons
Connecting rods
Crankshaft
Engine flywheel
Cylinder head
ECU
Data recording system
The cam lift must be homologated in VR5, max 11 mm
Tappets / Rocker arms
Intake manifold
Intake valves
The throttle unit
Exhaust valves
Exhaust manifold
Exhaust system: The cut out in the rear bumper must be homologated in VR5.
Balancing shafts
Maximum engine revs being limited to 7500 rpm
The water pump
The radiator
The oil sump
The oil pump

FUEL CIRCUIT:
The fuel tank
The location of the fuel tank

ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT:
The battery must be situated behind the driver or codriver seats (the new location of the battery must be homologated in VR5)
The alternator / starter
The starter motor is free and his position must be homologated in VR5
Diurnal lights (daytime lights) may be replaced with the substitute part homologated in VR5

TRANSMISSION:
Clutch mechanism
Clutch control
The gearbox
The gearbox control (sequential linkage)
Gearbox lubrication device and oil cooling system
Final drive
Mechanical type limited slip differential
Transverse and longitudinal transmission shafts

FRONT AND REAR AXLES-SUSPENSIONS:
All the suspension parts
a) Linkages
b) Reinforcement bars may be fitted on the suspension mounting points to the bodyshell or
chassis of the same axle, on each side of the car’s longitudinal axis
b) The reinforcement of anchorage points with additional material is authorised
Upper suspension points
The anti-roll bars, together with their anchorage points
Only shock absorbers and McPherson strut assembly homologated in the VR5 Variant may be used.

RUNNING GEAR:
Only the brake discs, callipers, handbrake and pedals homologated in the VR5 variant may be used
Master cylinders
If the anti-lock braking system (ABS) is disconnected or removed, the use of one or more
mechanical rear braking distributor(s) homologated by the manufacturer in the VR5 Variant is authorised.
Steering mechanism (housing and rack
Steering rods
Steering column

BODYWORK – BODYSHELL:
Additional openings on the engine bonnet must be homologated
The maximum width of the VR5 car is 1820 mm.
Seats:
- The harness fixings must be those homologated in VO/VR5 by the FIA
- Seat support and anchorages
The dashboard hump(s) may be modified but the modification must be homologated in VR5
The air conditioning compressor may be removed. The modification must be homologated in
VR5.
The safety foam and door panels homologated in VR5 must be used.
Sunroof / Roof hatch: original or homologated in VR5.
Windscreen: only series windscreens and windscreens homologated in VO/VR5 may be used

[pantealex]

Engine: 1.6L or what ever?
I didn´t find "engine max XXXX cc"

[HaCo]

Does this mean the body will not be widened?

Verstuurd van mijn ARCHOS 80G9 met Tapatalk

[bt52b]

Does this mean the body will not be widened?
Verstuurd van mijn ARCHOS 80G9 met Tapatalk


900-f

Overall width
The maximum width of the VR5 car is 1820 mm

[HaCo]

The 208 is 1730mm width. So, 10cm left, how much is the current s2000 spec?

Verstuurd van mijn MT15i met Tapatalk

[Mirek]

1820 mm too (for example stock Fabia II is only 1642 mm).

[polo10]

1820 mm too (for example stock Fabia II is only 1642 mm).

Hi Mirek, i know that the new Fabia will only be on the market in 2014, Are you sure that R5 will be based on the Fabia?

[Mirek]

I can't say I'm sure but I'm willing to bet ;) Citigo is nonsense and there is no other car to make it from. I heard the R5 will be homologated only for season 2014 anyway.

[OldF]

Engine: 1.6L or what ever?
I didn´t find "engine max XXXX cc"

First time I heard (read) about this new formula was in gpweek (http://mag.gpweek.com/?iid=49492) (page 39, issue 121 20.7.2011)
By this it will be 1600 cc direct injection.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii284/OkdF/FIAlaunchesnewturbocarformula.jpg


In the provisional R5 regulations 324-a1 it says:

Any additional injection system (i.e. water …) is prohibited.
Injectors:
For direct petrol injection, at any point of the fuel circuit, the maximum pressure authorised is
8 bars in the low pressure circuit and 200 bars average on one cycle in the high pressure
circuit (direct injection only).

Could be interpreted that a non-DI engine is also allowed.


Another article was on Maxrally 24.7.2011

Cheaper Super 2000 category planned
MaxRally | News | Cheaper Super 2000 category planned (http://www.maxrally.com/news/entry/cheaper_super_2000_category_planned/)

24th July 2011
By Charlie Contadeli

The new-generation Super 2000 cars will be half the price of a current version according to Peugeot Sport’s Bertrand Vallat.

Vallat, who is responsible for the French make’s hugely successful 207 model, revealed that Peugeot and Skoda are in discussions with the FIA, motorsport’s world governing body, regarding the new technical regulations for 2013.

In an interview with respected radio reporter Colin Clark, Vallat said: “Skoda and Peugeot are talking with the FIA for a new car from 2013. It will be a standard car with a 1.6 turbo based on a future model. We are trying to cut the technical cost by half. It will be a big challenge to reduce this cost but we will be working hard with the FIA to achieve this. The category could be good."

The current Super 2000 rules were introduced in 2006. If the cost-cutting plans reach fruition then the new-era S2000 machine could cost approximately 100,000 Euros.

PS I don’t believe the price will be as low as 100.000 €. I don’t you can get even a Citroen DS3 R3T for that price.

[A FONDO]

The initial price doesnt matter, they can sell it even for 1 euro, but what about the maintenance costs?

[navtheace]

Does R5 allow bodywork modifications? ie the maximum width in the rules. Does that mean:

1. road car bodywork can be modified to this max width
2. road car must be no wider than this as standard

[Mirek]

Sure it can be modified although it's not explicitly written in this public document. No car in B-class is even close to such width so that such rule would have no meaning.

[A FONDO]

Toyota will return to rallying with an entry-level Yaris which will make its first public outing in Rally Germany later this month.
The TMG Yaris R1A has been developed as an entry-level machine priced at approximately €22,500.

Toyota said the car will be able to compete in the World Rally Championship under the R1A regulations once it is homologated by the FIA before the end of the year.
The Yaris will run as 'zero car' duriung Rallye Deutschland and it will be driven by Isolde Holderied.
"It is a great thrill for TMG to return to rallying, a discipline in which we enjoyed a great deal of success in the past," said Toyota Motorsport president Yoshiaki Kino****a.
"The TMG Yaris R1A is a completely different project compared to our WRC past; it is an affordable but exciting car which makes rallying's major events accessible to a whole range of participants.
"We have already received numerous enquiries about this car so we know there is a huge appetite in the rally world for a new Toyota; I hope this is the start of a new rally dynasty at TMG."

Looks very expensive for me, especially for a new car full of "initial problems".

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Maybe I'm just late to the table here, but I'm a little confused - what are the R-class regulations, and how will they affect the existing structure of the WRC? Are they additional clases alongside the WRC, S2000, PWRC and WRC Academy, or are the R-classes a complete restructing of the category?

This sounds like something Wikipedia should have a page on, but I cannot find anything on it anywhere on the internet.

[Mirek]

A small guide :)

PWRC, SWRC or Academy are not car classes. These are championships eligible for particular cars.

PWRC is eligible for N4, R3, R2 and R1, N3, N2, N1 cars.
Academy is set only for Fiesta R2 in Academy spec. (not full R2 I think)
SWRC is set for S2000 either the "old" 2.0 N/A or the "new" 1.6 Turbo
WRC is set for S2000 1.6T cars with additional WRC Kit (larger turbo restrictor, lighter flywheel, big rear wing, different front bumper and front asphalt brakes, thinner windows)

R classes have been out for a couple of years and largely used especially in former JWRC (if we speak about WRC events). They shall be the future class system when all cars of old gr.A/N system are gone or implemented

R5 - newly defined class to be a successor of the S2000 2.0 N/A in regional and national championships (1.6T, 4x4 Kit Cars), for some time its working name was R4T (examples Fabia, Fiesta, 208 in development)
R4 - further tuned N4 cars (lightened, new suspension) (examples Evo IX, Evo X, Impreza)
R3 - top 2WD class in gr.R system; several options possible
- R3C - 2.0 N/A (examples Clio R3, Civic R3)
- R3D - 2.0 Diesel (example Punto R3D)
- R3T - 1.6 Turbo (example DS3 R3T, 207 R3T, Fiesta R3T in development)
R2 - less modifications, 2WD; again several options possible
- R2C - 2.0 N/A (no car homologated)
- R2B - 1.6 N/A (example C2 R2, Fiesta R2, Fabia R2, Twingo R2, 208 R2 to be homologated soon)
R1 - least modifications, 2WD, basically almost stock cars
- R1A - 1.4 N/A (example Yaris R1 to be homologated soon)
- R1B - 1.6 N/A (example Twingo R1, Fiesta R1, DS3 R1)

[OldF]

You where faster Mirek, but anyway I post my own version.

Afaik R-group cars replace A & N group cars. I believe that no new group A & N homologations are allowed anymore, only upgrades to the existing ones. Btw, if no new A & N homologations are not allowed, from which year did this happen?

The main philosophy with R-group cars are that every part that can be replaced or modified must be homologated, even springs and dampers that are free in group A & N. There are also some kind of cost control for the parts.

Sporting regulations: FIA Rally Championships (http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regulations/Pages/FIARallyChampionships.aspx)

2012 WRC Sporting Regulations and Appendices (english) - publié le: 15.06.2012: Classes in WRC rallies on page 13.

2012 Regional Rallies Championships Sporting Regs and Appendices (english) - published on: 09.03.2012: Classes in regional championship rallies on page 11.

Technical regulations: International Sporting Code & Appendices (http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regulations/Pages/InternationalSportingCodeA.aspx)

Article 260: R1 (1400 cc – 1600 cc NA engine, R2 (16000 cc – 2000 cc NA engine) and R3 (2000 cc NA engine)
Article 260D: R3D (2000 cc diesel engine) and R3T (1600 cc turbo engine)

R2 and R3 regulations are very similar, some minor difference in the modification of the body shell and suspension (I don’t know what these differences are). R1 is almost a standard car.

The biggest difference between R2 and R3 is the gearbox, 5-gear gearbox for R2 and 6-gear gearbox for R3. R1 has a standard gearbox.

So the R1, R2 and R3 describe the tuning grade and the A, B and C the engine capacity.

Article 261:
R5 is a new member of the R-group and is valid from the beginning of 2013. Peugeot has said that they will unveil their R5 in September.

R5 is based on a R3T car with the addition of 4WD with a 5-gear gearbox.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

So, if I understand correctly, Group A and Group N are being discontinued, with the R-class cars serving as their replacements, and depending on their classification, R-class cars will be elegible to enter certain championships.

Right. I think I've got it. It does make sense; I've felt that some of the various championships have needed cleaning up for a while now, but it's not the most-pressing issue facing the sport.

[Xsara Fan]

Our team (ALM RUSSIA / DMACK RUSSIA / Academy Rally) has built first VW Polo R1. This car will take part in "DMACK CUP" series in Russia.

Info about tests (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://www.almrally.ru/dmackcup/info/8828/)

Photos from first tests (http://www.almrally.ru/foto/fotolist/?idgroup=38926)

Video (http://www.almrally.ru/dmackcup/info/8847/)

On-board video (http://www.almrally.ru/dmackcup/info/8832/)

[Mirek]

Is it homologated?

[Xsara Fan]

Is it homologated?

No. This car will be homologated in Russia (for national championship & national cup). But may be VW will homologate it ;) We will see.

[Mirek]

I was told there is Polo R2 in development in Germany. That's why I'm asking. I must admit I don't know anything more than rumors.

[kober]

A small guide [...]Great work! But what's missing is the minimum weight of cars in each of the classes:

R5: 1200 kg
RGT: 1200 to 1400; affects air restrictor's size
R4: 1350 (??)
R3
- T: 1080
- D: 1150
- C: 1080
R2
- C: 1080
- B: 1030
R1
- B: 1030
- A: 980

... compared to 1200 kg for S2000, and S2000-based (WRC and RRC) cars.

[Mirek]

I don't want to browse FIA website now but I think that R4 is minimum 1310 kg and R3T is minimum 1120 kg.

[kober]

I've double checked and it's 1300 kg for R4 (1350 was for N4) and 1080 for R3T.

Also, not sure if that has been brought up already, but from 2013 the minimum weight of the car with crew (driver + co-driver + the full equipment of the driver and co-driver) will be the minimum weight w/o crew + 160 kg (compared to + 150 at the moment).

[Sulland]

Read some news on a rally site that FIA are changing the naming convention on the classes and championships in WRC for 2013.

I guess this might be something the Rally Commission will inform on, but have not seen any official statement from FIA, have anyone else?

This is a google translation from what I read on Ericsson Motorsport http://www.emotorsport.se

http://translate.google.com/?vi=c&hl=en

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Yeah, I was asking about this the other day. I don't think the FIA will say anything until the promoter issue is sorted out.

[Sulland]

Had some issues on my iPad on moving translated stuff over, so had to move to the iMac.

Here is the full text:

Three factory cars and new classes, the FIA's rescue of the WRC series?

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/bilder/0.gif After several years with the now familiar classes PWRC and SWRC aiming FIA to replace them and start new classes, all because of the declining interest in several of the series - but also for the entire World Cup series, sat at the last meeting and discussed several news - if and when a change can come is uncertain - with some of the changes are expected as early as next year tells FIA.
New classes were just one of the points, dropping the now pre-nominated places for factory cars, allowing three cars to go under the team's flag and where the two top finishers at the finish counting points was one of the ideas. The idea a few years ago, was on the contrary that smaller cars for the teams would provide reduced costs - if the proposal goes through three cars become more the rule than the exception and suddenly rising costs again - which would not benefit either Ford or Citroen with ailing economy.
This proposal is something especially newcomer VW worked for, they have been talking about three cars with a well established, a driver right there under and a young driver under development. Add to that the local importer and reseller arte frame which is expected to launch towards the middle of next year.

New classes - WRC2, 3 & 4.
The currently named PWRC and SWRC series, Championship for production cars, Group N and Super2000 cars are expected to go to a new common class called WRC2. There, the two classes of counting points for each class, but go in the common table and only one champion crowned.
A series of two-wheel drive cars is expected, where the R1 to R3 cars under the name WRC3.Today's WRC Academy is expected in the future is called WRC4 and run just like today as a talent program execution and joint activities - while not run the entire race track.

The class that gets no place in WRC is as yet GT cars, the R-GT - likely will not this class put a heavy load for the series, when only local drivers are expected to attend sporadically and is seen more as an odd element than a World Series.


PS
Brother John: I must disagree with you in moving this here. The R Classes news i more of a tech thread, but this one is intended to discuss FIAs suggestions to beat the old WRC horse into life again! ;-)

[tolis]

@Sulland: I've also heard about that. ;)

[Prisoner Monkeys]

If WRC2, WRC3 and WRC4 are genuine, then I think this will go a long way to fixing some of the problems in the series.

Someone the other day raised the point that the reduced coverage means it is difficult to form an emotional attachment to one driver. I understand this entirely - in Formula 1, I follow Jenson Button because he made his debut when I really started to watch the series full-time. He was a driver whose progress I could follow across his entire career trajectory.

Right now, the WRC, Super 2000 championship, Group N and WRC Academy are only loosely connected. There is no clear path from the lower tiers to the upper echelons, so it's very difficult to work out how people got to where they are. For example, take Daniel Oliveria - who is he? What has he done to justify a place in the WRC? I can't form any attachment to him because I have no idea who he is. But on the other hand, I can see that Elfyn Evans is experiecing success in the Academy, which makes it easier to form an attachment to him. And if there is a linear progressing from the Academy to the WRC, I can follow Evans' career more easily. From the sounds of things, the WRC2/3/4 proposal will do just this - success in WRC4 paves the way to WRC3.

As for three-car teams, I don't see it happening, though I think it would be great because it means more action. If the manufacturers are worried about costs, then perhaps they should invest in making cars for WRC2 and WRC3, and use the income to offset the cost of a third works car, though they would probably have to sell quite a few to make it viable.

[stefanvv]

As for three-car teams, I don't see it happening, though I think it would be great because it means more action. If the manufacturers are worried about costs, then perhaps they should invest in making cars for WRC2 and WRC3, and use the income to offset the cost of a third works car, though they would probably have to sell quite a few to make it viable.

It is not obligatory, if team can't afford it, they just won't do it, just like it was in 80's and 90's

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Reading Sulland's post, I got the impression that three-car teams were proposed, but rejected. That may have something to do with the translation.

That said, if three-car teams were to happen, I think Ford and Citroen would be pretty much obligated to field a third car - at least for their works teams - if Volkswagen did, since three cars would give VW an advantage in the points standings.

And, of course, all of this remains to be confirmed.

[HaCo]

I hope 3 car rule comes through. All the teams have more than 2 cars already, Ford just adds a paying driver to their works team. (Just like the rest I guess).

Verstuurd van mijn ARCHOS 80G9 met Tapatalk

[rjbetty]

I so hope it does too. I always felt the WRC lost it way when the 3 car rule came through in 2004. Though it was in 2006 with all the customer teams it really became a problem (and then only because they were REPLACING, not adding to works teams) WRC jumped the shark around 2009 for me cos of the super-reliability and therefore hardly anyone winning. Very unrallylike.

Max Mosley, I hold you responsible for ruining the WRC.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Max Mosley, I hold you responsible for ruining the WRC.
I agree, but I suspect for different reasons - I think he neglected the WRC because he was so busy pissing in the pool that was Formula 1.

Fortunately, Jean Todt recognises the importance of the WRC.

[Barreis]

He recognises it but also does little or nothing. Whole season was ruined 'cos of TV comercial rights, etc.

[seb_sh]

I would welcome 3 car teams, it would mean more top drives so potentially more battles at top level. Competitionally a team with 2 good drivers wouldn't be be at a huge disadvantage to 3 car teams if the top 2 cars score so teams that don't want to run 3 cars aren't forced to.

This is from memory so I might be wrong but weren't 3rd cars banned as a cost cutting measure when WRC increased the calendar to 16 rounds? Also I seem to remember at the time teams said an extra car is not that much more expensive to run but that a larger calendar is a bigger problem.

[rjbetty]

Weren't 3rd cars banned as a cost cutting measure when WRC increased the calendar to 16 rounds? Also I seem to remember at the time teams said an extra car is not that much more expensive to run but that a larger calendar is a bigger problem.

Yes I clearly remember the teams saying that, but the FIA didn't listen. They also didn't listen to Jimmy Mcrae when he said the WRC would suffer without Colin. The 2 car rule was ridiculous as it also left Mcrae without a drive.

But now I think of it, when the WRC really lost it for me was with Superrally, an utter joke when someone can retire and still score points, denying the privateers who so need the recognition, and who worked hard to stay on the road.

[janvanvurpa]

Yes I clearly remember the teams saying that, but the FIA didn't listen. They also didn't listen to Jimmy Mcrae when he said the WRC would suffer without Colin. The 2 car rule was ridiculous as it also left Mcrae without a drive.


My recollection of the problem which left Colin without a paid ride was down to one thing: excessively high demands for salary--what was it reported at the time? I think he was demanding £5 million and it was a long time since he'd been really hot...
Very odd I thought at the time that he says on camera "I'd do this for nuthin" but drops out when he can't get is 5 mil a year..



But now I think of it, when the WRC really lost it for me was with Superrally, an utter joke when someone can retire and still score points, denying the privateers who so need the recognition, and who worked hard to stay on the road.

Yep. Pretty silly.
Over here in Fortress America™ we had forever a system where you got 2 points in the "National Champignonskit" for every event you'd enter....I had a guy I helped building engines/gearbox/suspension who won our National 2wd non-turbo class and got support from Saab USA for a "new gen" 900 turbo and did everything himself---and had a string of like 10 DNFs and one crap result so he had 20 pts just for entering, and for the season "beat" several guys who had won rounds when the events were near for them but no other events..
DNFs beating anybody was insane, DNFs beating class wins......only in America.

But! "All" the fan-bois are used to just hitting the http://helen-lingard.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/reset-button.jpg "so, like, whatever doood"

[kober]

Brother John: I must disagree with you in moving this here. The R Classes news i more of a tech thread, but this one is intended to discuss FIAs suggestions to beat the old WRC horse into life again! ;-)I couldn't agree more. The last fourteen posts (including this one) in the thread have nothing in common with the R classes talk.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Had some issues on my iPad on moving translated stuff over, so had to move to the iMac.
I'm curious as to what your source is for this. I'm not doubting it by any means, but I can't seem to find anything online, and I'd like to read more if only to work on the 2013 season page over at Wikipedia.

[kober]

I'm curious as to what your source is for this. I'm not doubting it by any means, but I can't seem to find anything online, and I'd like to read more if only to work on the 2013 season page over at Wikipedia.As mentioned earlier, the source is Ericsson Motorsport, this -> link (http://www.emotorsport.se/nyheter.php?in=2&nyhets_id=6643) in particular.

[Prisoner Monkeys]

Right, well, I can't use that on Wikipedia. It doesn't quote anyone at all, much less someone directly connected to the proposed regulation changes. It's also faily speculative, seeing as how it uses a question mark in the title.

But thank you for supplying the link anyway.

[navtheace]

Back to R category talk then!

Any news on R cars? Or will they remain the forgotton classes in the WRC as the World Rally Cars are kept way ahead by the likes of a 29mm restrictor to strangle the R3T cars

[Mirek]

Back to R category talk then!

Any news on R cars? Or will they remain the forgotton classes in the WRC as the World Rally Cars are kept way ahead by the likes of a 29mm restrictor to strangle the R3T cars

Noo, don't start with that. You can put 50 mm restrictor on R3T cars and they will remain slower than WRC cars. I am willing to bet.

[kober]

Or will they remain the forgotton classes in the WRC [...]WRC is just a small piece of the rally world out there. A class doesn't need to win world championship rallies to be succesful (see N4 or S2000).

[OldF]

Peugeot R5 to be unveiled in Paris

iRally | The free independent Rally App for the iPhone, iPad and Android (http://irallylive.com/ir_news.htm?00001867)

No we have just to wait and see what’s coming.

[kober]

What exactly is the difference between RRC and R5? The simple answer is that the former is basically a WRC without the kit, and the latter is the newest FIA baby. But, technically-wise, they both have 1.6 turbo engines (RRC with 30 mm restrictor, R5 with 35??), although I'm assuming that R5's is production based, both are 4x4, share the same minimum weight (1200 kg), have five-gear sequential gearbox, no central differential, long travel suspension. If I'm not mistaken, widened wheel arches, and some small wings are allowed on R5 as well. Is the engine the only significant difference? Money-wise, FIA's limit on a R5 is 180k euros. Is that really half the price of a WRC/RRC? How're FIA going to keep the price within the limit this time? As far as I know, it didn't work that well for S1600 and S2000.

Thanks for the answers! :)

[Mirek]

Sure not 35 mm restrictor, that would be like 340-350 Hp even under R3T engine tuning regulations ;) I heard about 32 mm (for that I assume around 280-290 Hp in case of engine otherwise similar with R3T). RRC/WRC have 6-speed gearbox, R5 probably 5-speed. Don't think it makes some significant difference in price. I guess that the main part of price difference shall be really done by the engine. No mandatory use of DI, no purpose-built blocks etc. They will sure apply some maximum price also for key components but in my opinion that depends a lot on lobbying of manufacturers. There's a lot of space for cutting the price down (just an example, S2000 driveshaft costs around 2000 Euro...).

[HaCo]

Peugeot R5 to be presented in Paris in 2 weeks... joehoe!!!
Autonews Magazine » Rallye » La Peugeot 208 R5 sera dévoilée au Salon de Paris (http://www.autonews-magazine.com/blog/?p=25876&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook)

[kober]

Sure not 35 mm restrictor [...] I heard about 32 mmI took a look at the provisional specification described in the Appendix J (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/6251900F33FD5120C1257A400054ECBD/$FILE/PROVISIONAL-261%20(2013)-(15.06.2012).pdf), and it says "the maximum internal diameter of the restrictor is 32 mm * subject to additional tests". You're right then, at least for now :)

So, will the power output of R5's engine be comparable to RRC's?

[Mirek]

With 32 mm I'm sure the engine will be more powerful than the RRC.

[bf1_IRL]

Peugeot Sport Press Release (EN) http://peugeot-media.com/index.php?nav=771&action=view&communique_id=236&langue=en&download=en/20120912_208_type_r5_en.pdf

Think that if they do allow R5 cars have more power, I imagine it will be to make up for not have a sixth gear & even it up somewhat between R5 & RRC

[Andre Oliveira]

http://www.ralisonline.net/pt/images/stories/2012/SET2012/foto208rali12.jpg

[stefanvv]

So this is the new roaring lion

[navtheace]

It looks like the R5 category is now breaking away from what R categories are all about.

ie driven wheels and bodywork as road car.

So will R5 replace the World Rally Car category in time?

R5 looks just like another custom category that will run for a few exciting years and then fade away after manufacturers stop getting involved.

Seen it with F2, S1600, S2000, WRC (2 litre). Then the cars become too expensive/near impossible to maintain after some years and then people who bought them cannot sell them on as no one wants them.

RRC the most recent custom category has not had many people buying into. Perfect example.

[stefanvv]

So will R5 replace the World Rally Car category in time?

May be that is the original plan :confused: may be...

[Franky]

nactheace, you've been told several times that RRC isn't a category. It's how M-Sport calls one of its Fiesta versions. Prodrive has it called Super Production.

[Mirek]

It looks like the R5 category is now breaking away from what R categories are all about.

ie driven wheels and bodywork as road car.

So will R5 replace the World Rally Car category in time?

R5 looks just like another custom category that will run for a few exciting years and then fade away after manufacturers stop getting involved.

Seen it with F2, S1600, S2000, WRC (2 litre). Then the cars become too expensive/near impossible to maintain after some years and then people who bought them cannot sell them on as no one wants them.

RRC the most recent custom category has not had many people buying into. Perfect example.




R5 is not intended to replace WRC. It is meant to be the pinnacle of the sport on regional and national basis. It is clear that to keep large audience rallying must offer also a kind of show. For that You need really fast cars. You can see how it works with GB with stock-based FWD cars. Did the championship get more publicity, more spectators, sponsors and competitors? I remember when we had here up to 20 WRC cars on stages (in a country of 10 million in a time when 1 GBP or Dollar was twice more Czech crowns than now!). The stages were completely crowded by thousands of spectators. After the ban of WRC cars there was almost no-one. Only with the S2000 people started to come back.

The classes You name died mostly from other reasons, usually from change of rules by FIA. They slowed down the F2 not to compete with WRC, introduced S1600 instead and JWRC instead of F2 championship. With the crisis of WRC championship a crisis of JWRC followed so they introduced R3 as cheaper cars of similar performance. S2000 was an extremely successful formula of which only problem is that FIA banned new homologations already two years a go! That's why we don't have any new cars and any new manufacturers involved. That was big mistake of FIA not a problem of those cars.

I only agree that S2000 1.6T (RRC) was completely wrong move. Way cheaper but not slower R5 shall be a cure for that mistake.

[dimviii]

Mirek why you said that r5 will be cheaper? Cheaper in running, or purchasing?

[Mirek]

Mirek why you said that r5 will be cheaper? Cheaper in running, or purchasing?

Because it is a fact that the S2000 are reasonably cheaper both to purchase and to run than the 1.6T S2000 (those are same expensive as WRC cars). R5 is declared to be cheaper than S2000 and I don't have a reason not to believe it. I don't believe it will be half of the S2000 or so but I do believe it will be less and therefore much less than the 1.6T S2000. They declare to have much longer maintenance cyclus (now the S2000 engine rebuilds are in 700-1500 km, for R5 Peugeot speaks about 3000 km). they declare there will be some more strict price limits than for S2000. Of course the time will show.

[kober]

I only agree that S2000 1.6T (RRC) was completely wrong move.Do you mean the FIA's decision to base the current generation of WRC on S2000 with 1.6 turbo engine, instead of 2.0 n/a? If I recall correctly, that's how the RRC (S2000 1.6T) has been spawned.

[Mirek]

There is 1.6T and 1.6T. With RRC they went for purpose built engines using mandatory direct injection with which nobody had experience before, very high maximum rpm, and than for regional use they killed these expensive engines by tiny restrictor. So You pay for WRC engine but You can't use its full potential. Now they will use almost stock engines for R5 with similar output just thanks to bigger restrictor.

[Adler]

i guess main idea of S2000 1.6T was to find a way to compete in national championships with WRC´s

[Coach 2]

i guess main idea of S2000 1.6T was to find a way to compete in national championships with WRC´s
It provides at least team's the option to choose according to their purpose. Is the purpose to compete in the national championship, you can buy new or used S2000 and in the near future, R5T. Is the purpose in addition to participating in the WRC, also participate in the National Championship, you have the option to just buy one car that can quickly be converted from WRC to the RRC.
If cars from these different classes are fairly similar in performance, is this really a very good solution. What I would then want, is a freer regulations for R4, so these also were competitive.

[Mirek]

I don't think that making the R4 even faster is good. For gravel why not but for asphalt it's quite dangerous in my opinion.

[Coach 2]

I don't think that making the R4 even faster is good. For gravel why not but for asphalt it's quite dangerous in my opinion.

Yes, you may be right!!!
I just think it's pitty for all the Subaru's and Evo's hanging around in every corner of the world.

[kober]

R5 is not intended to replace WRC.But if R5 will be as successful, as S2000 was for the last few years, maybe one day in the future FIA will decide to base the next generation of WRC on R5. Such a class, let's call it R5+, would have the potential to be quick and cheap. And nothing's wrong with that :)

[Hazza555)]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/578636_366943576718207_1536473859_n.jpg

WRX STI R4 sedan to debut at Rally Hokkaido...

[A FONDO]

Wonderful to finally see this car where it belongs to - on the stages, after that hatchback crap!