The Ferrari thread ! [Archive] - Page 5

ShiftingGears

20th June 2010, 12:47

Not at all, just tired of listening the same record again and again, especially when we're still in half season, and Ferrari theoreticaly could still win somenthing, event with only italians in the team...

It is clear that Ferrari are not nearly as successful as they were when Todt promoted people based on performance, not nationality.

There is nothing to suggest that they would be as successful as they were if they only promote the Italians within the team. And by logic, everything to suggest they would have a greater shot at the title with Todt's approach. That is the point jens, ioan and I are making.

Bagwan

20th June 2010, 13:20

It is a good point , whether the moderator wants to hear it or not .

I thought "tifosi" meant those who support Ferrari , not everything Italian .

Tazio

20th June 2010, 14:10

It is clear that Ferrari are not nearly as successful as they were when Todt promoted people based on performance, not nationality.

There is nothing to suggest that they would be as successful as they were if they only promote the Italians within the team. And by logic, everything to suggest they would have a greater shot at the title with Todt's approach. That is the point jens, ioan and I are making. Just out of curiosity, are not Rob Smedly and Chris Dyer in good stead, and secure in their positions with the team? Because to be honest I haven't paid that much attention to this all Italian team issue. I can see how I would get pissed off if it became apparent that Ferrari had problems stemming from having an all Italian team, (which they don't). There is only one Homo Sapien that I harbor animosity toward. Luca di is a pinhead, and he talks a good game about having an all Italian team. But IMO he is only playing to the jingoistic citizens that exist in every country. Mine is one of the worst (In terms of having an overabundace of ultra-patriotic simpletons). Until the two fine race engineers (Smedly, and Dyer) get their pink slips I will continue to believe that "The Great Satan" has a lot less to do with Scuderia Ferrari Marlborough F1 operations than the Anglo/Mafia want desperately to believe.
Or have Smedly and Dyer already been told that they will be shown the door when their respective contract come up for renewal/renegotiation? Until then I will continue my support with confidence in the knowledge that Stefano D’ will mature into a top flight team leader and the rest of his team are using their recourses properly, but more importantly as beneficially as they can(within reason) in his young career! Because if their are rumors they are planing to axe RS and CD I probably wouldn't know it, as I am not interested in the tabloid aspects of the competition!

In Beelzebub,

Taz

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4971000787356417885#docid=-5177514344931941765

ioan

20th June 2010, 14:38

Was there anything technically incorrect with what ioan said?

Yep, it wasn't what pino likes to read! :D
And most probably next time when I will contradict him he will ban me again, like the last couple of times, as a result of his lack of answers. :)

ioan

20th June 2010, 14:41

Just out of curiosity, are not Rob Smedly and Chris Dyer in good stead, and secure in their positions with the team?

I guess we will know when LdM will think he has found 'better' Italians, like that 'funny' guy Stella who was getting on Kimi's nerves during the races last season.

Saint Devote

20th June 2010, 15:20

Exactly.

Anyway as long as Ferrari keep hiring only Italians it will be impossible for them to have the best technical team, unless an Italian is best in the world in each domain, which obviously isn't the case.

It may appear that way, but it is misleading.

It was Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne who decided to select and train people from Italy so that there was a homegrown depth of management to take over when they left and it has come to pass that way.

People who desired passionately to be Ferrari. Amongst these are Domenicali and Almondo.

I am sure if Adrian Newey were to offer his services and be prepared to move to Italy - surprisingly a constant reluctance from from non-Italians - there would be no objection.

Saint Devote

20th June 2010, 15:30

Today - Italy versus New Zealand: soccer version of Ferrari versus Mclaren!

ioan

20th June 2010, 16:21

It was Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne who decided to select and train people from Italy so that there was a homegrown depth of management to take over when they left and it has come to pass that way.

A quote from RB saying this would be highly appreciated.

Not that I don't want to believe you however I doubt that this was indeed their plan, especially that back then Todt was the one deciding and not Brawn and Todt never went on an Italian hiring spree.

Saint Devote

20th June 2010, 16:33

A quote from RB saying this would be highly appreciated.

Not that I don't want to believe you however I doubt that this was indeed their plan, especially that back then Todt was the one deciding and not Brawn and Todt never went on an Italian hiring spree.

Naturally it was by agreement with Todt and this information including comment by Brawn is available in the excellent book: "Michael Schumacher" by James Allen, who spoke at length with the great driver as well as people such as Sabine Khem, Irvine and others.

ioan

20th June 2010, 17:23

Naturally it was by agreement with Todt and this information including comment by Brawn is available in the excellent book: "Michael Schumacher" by James Allen, who spoke at length with the great driver as well as people such as Sabine Khem, Irvine and others.

I know that they were grooming people for the future of the team, however I never heard about them wanting to do it with only locals, Italians.
I am having a hard time believing that Todt and Brawn would have limited their choices to one nationality.

jens

20th June 2010, 17:32

I am having a hard time believing that Todt and Brawn would have limited their choices to one nationality.

Well, maybe it was the influence of di Montezemolo and him wanting an Italian Ferrari after the departure of Team MS already back then, hence promising young Italian engineers were given the best possible mentors.

Tazio

20th June 2010, 17:41

I guess we will know when LdM will think he has found 'better' Italians, like that 'funny' guy Stella who was getting on Kimi's nerves during the races last season.So in other words, the short answer is yes dyer and smedly are in good stead and not in eminent danger of being booted.
Thank you :dozey:

Tazio

20th June 2010, 18:17

My question does not mean that Ferrari will in fact finish 4th. It's more a hypothetical question based on the notion that if Italians like Ferrari to become Italian, would they like it at any cost and compromise. Oh, and by the way while we are at it, Ferrari factually finished 4th in the 2009 WCC...As far as you know it's one guy! (Granted the man at the top)
Being Tifosi also can mean caring so much about the Scuderia that if this knucklehead thinks he's Il Duce
His narrow fascist @$$ may end up hanging upside down from a lamp post at an Agip station just like the last one!

ioan

20th June 2010, 18:29

So in other words, the short answer is yes dyer and smedly are in good stead and not in eminent danger of being booted.
Thank you :dozey:

I never said that. Please read my post again, all you can conclude from it is that we do not know yet.

:dozey: :p

Saint Devote

20th June 2010, 18:40

I know that they were grooming people for the future of the team, however I never heard about them wanting to do it with only locals, Italians.
I am having a hard time believing that Todt and Brawn would have limited their choices to one nationality.

It arose from the reasonable decision - initiated by Ross Brawn - to try and promote from within the organization rather than bring in people as was done for some time. This is sound management practice.

The decision to do so was a deliberate one and the requirement for anyone working for Ferrari in future to actually live in Italy was also instated by Ross Brawn. He totally disagreed with the way it was done in the John Barnard days.

And so Ferrari has become operationally more Italian as a result.

It does not exclude anyone based on national origin - just that they reside in Italy and unless it is an exceptional circumstance already be employed by the Scuderia.

This policy makes good sense to me.

ioan

20th June 2010, 20:20

It arose from the reasonable decision - initiated by Ross Brawn - to try and promote from within the organization rather than bring in people as was done for some time. This is sound management practice.

The decision to do so was a deliberate one and the requirement for anyone working for Ferrari in future to actually live in Italy was also instated by Ross Brawn. He totally disagreed with the way it was done in the John Barnard days.

And so Ferrari has become operationally more Italian as a result.

It does not exclude anyone based on national origin - just that they reside in Italy and unless it is an exceptional circumstance already be employed by the Scuderia.

This policy makes good sense to me.

OK, it seams plausible. However what happens now is slightly different and Italians are brought in no matter if they are long serving Ferrari staff or not and people of other nationalities are not employed no matter where they live. This has nothing to do with Brawn it is Montezemolo's policy, the policy that gave Domenicali the team manager position that Brawn himself wanted to have.

Saint Devote

20th June 2010, 20:22

Mclaren's facility in Auckland is second to none.

Your point being..........

Saint Devote

20th June 2010, 20:25

OK, it seams plausible. However what happens now is slightly different and Italians are brought in no matter if they are long serving Ferrari staff or not and people of other nationalities are not employed no matter where they live. This has nothing to do with Brawn it is Montezemolo's policy, the policy that gave Domenicali the team manager position that Brawn himself wanted to have.

And you know not employing non-Italians as a matter of policy how?

After all, this would be contrary to European Union law and the ensuing lawsuits would not be ideal for the Ferrari image - not to forget the approach made to Mark Webber.

Ross Brawn never stated he wanted to become team manager. He did say that he was leaving because as he put it he no longer was excited at getting out of bed in the morning to do the work, wanted to return to England because of his grand children and his wife especially wanted that and wanted to take time off to fish.

Its all in interviews done by F1 Racing over a year ago.

SGWilko

20th June 2010, 20:34

ioan

20th June 2010, 20:45

http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/84639

The proverbial exception.

Saint Devote

20th June 2010, 22:13

The proverbial exception.

Just like gravity auld sport :s mokin:

Saint Devote

20th June 2010, 22:21

Likewise.. Confusion all around it seems. :rolleyes:

Not on my part - or Mclaren's for that matter, commemorating the Kiwi's death with a CanAm car earlier this month.

CNR

21st June 2010, 01:47

Q: is Ferrari bringing the sport into disrepute ?
http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/06/20/slow-teams-should-not-be-allowed-in-f1-montezemolo/

A report at Italiaracing said: "It should be noted that the only complaints this season about the smaller teams have come from Ferrari."

all of the six cars were faster by multiple seconds than the entire GP2 field in Turkey recently

Tazio

21st June 2010, 13:07

Q: is Ferrari bringing the sport into disrepute ?
http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/06/20/slow-teams-should-not-be-allowed-in-f1-montezemolo/Wow! :rolleyes:

Tazio

21st June 2010, 14:02

Retro Formula 1

21st June 2010, 15:46

Thanks for the imput guys :rolleyes: :confused:
OK back to the pertinent function or this thread:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3004/1267617227extrasalbumes.jpg
I sincerely hope Ferrari aren't thinking about incorporating exaust into tyre heating (It might be useful for quali.) because accidently being overambitious on the throttle and the rears heat quicker than icecream in the sun already The big trouble is getting the fronts to work as quick as the rears.

I would think The new exhaust layout and hot air could more likely result in reducing their drag = another small gain of that solution.
BTW I'll hope that is not the same side pod and engine cover they race in Valencia.(unless it's a solution that really Kicks @$$) ;)
Compared to the red bull it looks way too bulky :(
No shark gills! I'm guessing because they will have plenty of heat disapation from the underside, and the open area up above.

Excellent spot there Tazio.

Couple of questions spring to mind.

With the increased heat around the brake area, might they get overheating issues and the old long brake pedal issue? Secondly, what about if they're held on the line for a bit too long. Surely exhaust gasses exit at several hundred degrees and will overheat the tyres on one side. Even if they don't damage, wont it cause issues going into the first corner with cold on one side and too hot on the other?

Ferrari obviously know what they are doing but I can understand the Diffuser flowing much more than this.

Tazio

21st June 2010, 16:41

Excellent spot there Tazio.

Couple of questions spring to mind.

With the increased heat around the brake area, might they get overheating issues and the old long brake pedal issue? Secondly, what about if they're held on the line for a bit too long. Surely exhaust gasses exit at several hundred degrees and will overheat the tyres on one side. Even if they don't damage, wont it cause issues going into the first corner with cold on one side and too hot on the other?

Ferrari obviously know what they are doing but I can understand the Diffuser flowing much more than this. The more I think about it, there is one of a few things that could be problematic. I'll just address the one:
Ferrari is overjoyed about wind tunnel data. I think the exhaust may well overheat the push rods, just enough to upset the aero balance. Red Bull uses pull rod geometry. The key I would think is Ferrari have enough time to go to a pull rod rear. But it may be outside the rules at this point. That is pure speculation.

SGWilko

21st June 2010, 17:23

The more I think about it, there is one of a few things that could be problematic. I'll just address the one:
Ferrari is overjoyed about wind tunnel data. I think the exhaust may well overheat the push rods, just enough to upset the aero balance. Red Bull uses pull rod geometry. The key I would think is Ferrari have enough time to go to a pull rod rear. But it may be outside the rules at this point. That is pure speculation.

It's a bit like the F-Duct isn't it? The McLaren was designed with this in mind from the get go, so was the Red Bull, so the 4 tests before season start was used to evaluate and make changes etc.

Doing these changes on the hop, WITHOUT TESTING, especially something as volatile as the exhaust gases, is I imagine very risky.

Tazio

21st June 2010, 18:16

It's a bit like the F-Duct isn't it? The McLaren was designed with this in mind from the get go, so was the Red Bull, so the 4 tests before season start was used to evaluate and make changes etc.

Doing these changes on the hop, WITHOUT TESTING, especially something as volatile as the exhaust gases, is I imagine very risky.Precisely!
It's legal to construct a pull rod member put a torch to it and observe with a high degree of certainty what the physical effects are............................. even for Italians :eek: :uhoh: :laugh:

Fitting the system on the F10B and knowing with complete certainty how it will affect the overall balance is a different "kettle of fish" :grenade:

pallone col bracciale

22nd June 2010, 14:55

Risky, of course, but Mclaren did major changes last year without testing which worked.

Of course, they had little to lose then, but Ferrari need to be aggressive too.

truefan72

22nd June 2010, 16:11

Tazio

22nd June 2010, 16:21

wouldn't this modification be against the rules
The more I think about it, there is one of a few things that could be problematic. I'll just address one:
Ferrari is overjoyed about wind tunnel data. I think the exhaust may well overheat the push rods, just enough to upset the aero balance. Red Bull uses pull rod geometry. The key I would think is Ferrari have enough time to go to a pull rod rear. But it may be outside the rules at this point. That's what I was wondering ;)
Clarification please........ Thank you :confused:

truefan72

23rd June 2010, 04:25

That's what I was wondering ;)
Clarification please........ Thank you :confused:

...unless they can somehow convince folks that this was already approved in winter testing (like mercedes did) and that they are merely rolling out their testing chassis. Its a stretch but one that the fIa would be willing to bridge, since they let them make modifications already that raised eyebrows

Mia 01

23rd June 2010, 10:16

We don´t know if all updates will work, it´s difficult to incorporate others idéas in their chassi during the season.

But, it´s probably that they will be faster than the macca boys this weekend, Silverstone will be another matter.

This weekend Seb will win.

Tazio

24th June 2010, 13:16

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/nsmikle/2pytkzo-1.jpg[/quote]
This may be a crazy thinking :)
Could the F10B have a Y or a split exhaust?
According to F1 spec's; variable geometry exhaust systems, have been banned :confused:
(unless Ferrari have worked out a fluidic switching system with no moving parts).
Can you say rear wing stall device? If not can you say f-duct ?
Not one but two exploitation of the rules if this could a be controlled in that same fashion :confused: :s mokin:

Retro Formula 1

24th June 2010, 14:10

This may be a crazy thinking :)
Could the F10B have a Y or a split exhaust?
According to F1 spec's; variable geometry exhaust systems, have been banned :confused:
(unless Ferrari have worked out a fluidic switching system with no moving parts).
Can you say rear wing stall device? If not can you say f-duct ?
Not one but two exploitation of the rules if this could a be controlled in that same fashion :confused: :s mokin:

I wouldn't put it past them trying to justify the exhaust as a brake cooling device. Remember the wheel discs ;)

pallone col bracciale

24th June 2010, 14:21

No change in suspension (to pullrod like Red Bull) because the gearbox is homologated so mounting the pullrod is impossible.

Tazio

24th June 2010, 16:21

No change in suspension (to pullrod like Red Bull) because the gearbox is homologated so mounting the pullrod is impossible.It is the casing that is homologated, so as to ensure that gear layout cannot be altered. However any decent designer would be able to design bolt-on brackets to take revised suspension mounting points, if required. Other teams, are capable of changing layout, so why not Ferrari?

Tazio

24th June 2010, 21:14

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10eur196.jpg

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10eur199.jpg

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10eur198.jpg

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10eur188.jpg

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10eur189.jpg

Tazio

25th June 2010, 02:09

No change in suspension (to pullrod like Red Bull) because the gearbox is homologated so mounting the pullrod is impossible. The more I think about it the more I believe they will stick with the push rod configuration!

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10eur188.jpg

RedBull still employ heat sensors on the exterior of its suspension. Just not as substantially.

Red Bull heat sensors vvvvvvv

http://i69.servimg.com/u/f69/14/79/55/26/14696210.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=331&u=14795526)[/quote]

jens

27th June 2010, 18:56

Ferrari still got outperformed by McLaren and Red Bull at Valencia despite the upgrades. And this was a circuit, which in theory should be one of the best tracks for the Prancing Horse in 2010. Silverstone with its sweeping bends will be a major challenge for the car. I think Ferrari's will have to be content with a distant P3 in WCC this season.

Tazio

27th June 2010, 19:36

I am evil Homer

1st July 2010, 10:08

AndyL

1st July 2010, 10:55

Maybe i've missed it but can someone explain why there was no barcode on the Ferrari's last few races? It's not an advert anyway despite all that BS about subliminal messages etc.

I only ask because an advertising industry friend has suggest Malboro aren't too happy with Ferrari right now and I wondered if the two were connected, ie Ferrari being cautious and removing it and angering Philip Morris.

Those two ideas don't quite match up - if it's not an advert or subliminal message (or at least intended as such), then why would Philip Morris be angered?

I believe it was removed because the EU were getting hot under the collar about it, threatening to take action on the basis that they considered it stealth advertising. The bar code has disappeared from the Ducati MotoGP bikes too.

ArrowsFA1

1st July 2010, 11:01

Maybe i've missed it but can someone explain why there was no barcode on the Ferrari's last few races? It's not an advert anyway despite all that BS about subliminal messages etc.
You've answered your own question. It was removed in response to the belief that the barcode is a subliminal Marlboro advert. It has only been removed from the cars, not from Ferrari team clothing or driver overalls etc.

The barcode was used for many years when Marlboro sponsored McLaren and it was known then to be a way around the ban on tobacco advertising, just as West changed their name to East on the Zakspeeds, or Camel altered their wording to Came1. B&H's Bitten & Hisses was another effective one.

I am evil Homer

1st July 2010, 11:52

Those two ideas don't quite match up - if it's not an advert or subliminal message (or at least intended as such), then why would Philip Morris be angered?

I believe it was removed because the EU were getting hot under the collar about it, threatening to take action on the basis that they considered it stealth advertising. The bar code has disappeared from the Ducati MotoGP bikes too.

Well because they're paying a lot of money a year to be associated and now can't be - as Arrows explains it was there way of being on the cars. Now they aren't in any way....makes you wonder how much longer they'll bother...

Arrows - that's what I thought but really if its not an ad why remove it? Were they forced to or was it done by Ferrari to avoid issues? I've tried searching for a definitive answer but there doesn't seem to be one.

All this came from this contact who mentioned PM potentially withdrawing all sponsorship from Ferrari at the end of this year - he didn't mention Ducati however so i'm just trying to figure how legit this 'rumour' might be.

ArrowsFA1

1st July 2010, 12:04

...if its not an ad why remove it?
It was effectively an ad.

Were they forced to or was it done by Ferrari to avoid issues?
I think Ferrari removed it to avoid further issues. They were the last of the 'tobacco' teams and had managed to 'get way' with the barcode advertising for some time. Perhaps they felt they'd pushed their luck for long enough :p :

As for PM withdrawing sponsorship at the end of the year...as I understood it they 'own' all advertising space on the Ferrari and 'sell' it to other brands, so I guess they make money that way, but with the loss of the barcode they don't have any presence on the cars themselves. Their deal with Ferrari runs until 2011 so perhaps they're looking for an exit.

Mia 01

1st July 2010, 13:18

Tazio

1st July 2010, 14:46

I would like if Ferrari can make the step forward, thoose updates they used the last race where useful.

The scores between Lewis and Fernando have to be even, not atleast in the light of the last saga.
As opposed to Jens' view I take Stefano D at his word and the last I heard they will be working on improving the car for quite some time.
Here again I will try to put Ferrari Valencia frustration into context! (And if you flame me I will kick your a@@ :) We (the viewers) really didn't get a complete picture of what they accomplished because we didn't know what fuel loads they were carrying during practice, and lets face it stuck down in the midfield is nowhere to be at Valencia. This coupled with what is the general consensus that the improvement were not to be nearly as advantages as they will be at a dedicated race tracks bodes well for the scuderia MARLBORO team. :s mokin: :laugh:

Also we have to realize Hamilton is a very fast driver, and is qualifies well at this track.
My assessing the practice times, the 3 qualifying stages and the first couple laps before the accident. The car was going well, so well Alonso was told to ease off and follow the wounded Hamilton for a while, (remember the broken end plate?) maybe until the stops.
I think Ferrari also have better sector 3 times than the Mclaren, sector 3 being very technical. Suggesting the F10 has improved slow speed characteristics with the new exhaust system jmhto

Mia 01

1st July 2010, 17:59

As opposed to Jens' view I take Stefano D at his word and the last I heard they will be working on improving the car for quite some time.
Here again I will try to put Ferrari Valencia frustration into context! (And if you flame me I will kick your a@@ :) We (the viewers) really didn't get a complete picture of what they accomplished because we didn't know what fuel loads they were carrying during practice, and lets face it stuck down in the midfield is nowhere to be at Valencia. This coupled with what is the general consensus that the improvement were not to be nearly as advantages as they will be at a dedicated race tracks bodes well for the scuderia MARLBORO team. :s mokin: :laugh:

Also we have to realize Hamilton is a very fast driver, and is qualifies well at this track.
My assessing the practice times, the 3 qualifying stages and the first couple laps before the accident. The car was going well, so well Alonso was told to ease off and follow the wounded Hamilton for a while, (remember the broken end plate?) maybe until the stops.
I think Ferrari also have better sector 3 times than the Mclaren, sector 3 being very technical. Suggesting the F10 has improved slow speed characteristics with the new exhaust system jmhto

Thanks. I hope you are right.

Tazio

2nd July 2010, 02:35

Thanks. I hope you are right.
Straight from the horse's (Donkey) mouth: :s mokin:

The updates we brought to Spain saw us make a step forward and get closer to the front runners,” Fernando Alonso said. “I am satisfied with that, but also aware that we must continue to push on with the development of the F10, because we need to have a car capable of fighting for pole and to give us the edge over our rivals as soon as possible. If we are now 29 points off the championship leader, it means that in the next ten races, we have to score at least 30 more than whoever is in the lead at any one time.”
Be assured of one thing if nothing else:
There ain't no quit in this guy! :bandit: :beer:

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/f1/all-is-not-lost-says-alonso/GpNewsForm-en-default-21-7-0-41313-1.html

You guys do the math! I don't trust Fred :D

Mia 01

2nd July 2010, 08:49

Straight from the horse's (Donkey) mouth: :s mokin:

Be assured of one thing if nothing else:
There ain't no quit in this guy! :bandit: :beer:

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/f1/all-is-not-lost-says-alonso/GpNewsForm-en-default-21-7-0-41313-1.html

You guys do the math! I don't trust Fred :D

Agreed, fred needs to do moore than talking.

pallone col bracciale

2nd July 2010, 14:23

Fernando is beating his team-mate and not allowing the Ferrari management to back off development.

A vast improvement over the driver who was there last year, already.

truefan72

2nd July 2010, 16:12

Fernando is beating his team-mate and not allowing the Ferrari management to back off development.

A vast improvement over the driver who was there last year, already.

who beat his teammate while driving a dog of a car and brought home the last Ferrari WDC in 2007 despite 2 fearsome competitors.
and another thing, Ferrari work hard on developing their car no matter who is driving them.

Tazio

2nd July 2010, 16:43

who beat his teammate while driving a dog of a car and brought home the last Ferrari WDC in 2007 despite 2 fearsome competitors.
and another thing, Ferrari work hard on developing their car no matter who is driving them.The same guy who had to ride bitch for Massa the last three races of 2008. Now who's whipping Massa's butt in the other car?

pallone col bracciale makes a valid point!
Why don't you go bash Fettel or Mike! or Mark or Button. This is the Ferrari fans thread!
not some punk@@@ bashers thread!

truefan72

2nd July 2010, 18:43

The same guy who had to ride bitch for Massa the last three races of 2008. Now who's whipping Massa's butt in the other car?

pallone col bracciale makes a valid point!
Why don't you go bash Fettel or Mike! or Mark or Button. This is the Ferrari fans thread!
not some punk@@@ bashers thread!

wow, tell me how you really feel. Get a grip before yo faint from hyperventilation.

According to you helping support his teammate try to win the 2008 WDC is your standard for useless. The problem with ferrari fans like you is that your memory is selective, your judgments arbitrary and your opinions about drivers sways according to who is in the seat and what the media says about them.

I have far more respect for ioan with whom I do not agree but who is a huge ferrari fan grounded in reality and not opposed to criticizing them when it is called for.

I guess according to your world, a ferrari fans thread is a place to criticize a former ferrari driver who brought you a championship and then bash anyone pointing out that fact to them. Or is it simply the case that you have no argument and therefore all that is left is insulting and screaming :\

Tazio

2nd July 2010, 19:08

wow, tell me how you really feel. Get a grip before yo faint from hyperventilation.

According to you helping support his teammate try to win the 2008 WDC is your standard for useless. The problem with ferrari fans like you is that your memory is selective, your judgments arbitrary and your opinions about drivers sways according to who is in the seat and what the media says about them.

I have far more respect for ioan with whom I do not agree but who is a huge ferrari fan grounded in reality and not opposed to criticizing them when it is called for.

I guess according to your world, a ferrari fans thread is a place to criticize a former ferrari driver who brought you a championship and then bash anyone pointing out that fact to them. Or is it simply the case that you have no argument and therefore all that is left is insulting and screaming :\
You must be confusing me for somone who actually gives a #### about your opinion of me! None the less why did you come on this thread? To contradict a new member when his legit opinion is being borne out with facts!! Massa wasted kimi in 2008 and to Kimi's credit he played his part as a supporting member. Ferrari supporters appreciate his contributions as far as you know!

pallone col bracciale

2nd July 2010, 19:58

and another thing, Ferrari work hard on developing their car no matter who is driving them.

But not in 2009. Which was last year. Not a long time ago, only last year. Then, they stopped developing the F60.

Fernando Alonso was not the driver then.

Whoever it was did not have the ability or desire to fight his corner well enough to stop the decision not to develop the car he was driving.

Which I, as a Tifosi, find unacceptable.

Whatever his faults, a lack of fight and determination is not an accusation that can be aimed at the current Ferrari lead driver, which I, as a Ferrari fan, am very happy about.

I do not believe a real Ferrari fan would think much differently.

Tazio

2nd July 2010, 20:22

ioan

2nd July 2010, 21:39

But not in 2009. Which was last year. Not a long time ago, only last year. Then, they stopped developing the F60.

Fernando Alonso was not the driver then.

Whoever it was did not have the ability or desire to fight his corner well enough to stop the decision not to develop the car he was driving.

Which I, as a Tifosi, find unacceptable.

Whatever his faults, a lack of fight and determination is not an accusation that can be aimed at the current Ferrari lead driver, which I, as a Ferrari fan, am very happy about.

I do not believe a real Ferrari fan would think much differently.

Since MS, Todt and Brawn left the decisions are taken by LdM, so I can not condemn Kimi for a decision he did not take, nor could I condemn him for not caring about what Ferrari did with the F60 as he knew that he was out of the team anyway.

Kimi always had a laid back attitude however rubbishing him for other people's decision is completely out of line.

Whatever his faults, a lack of fight and determination is not an accusation that can be aimed at the current Ferrari lead driver, which I, as a Ferrari fan, am very happy about.

Funny how he was lacking this determined fighting spirit 6 days ago when he had to fight Kobayashi, instead he preferred to run his mouth for most of the race!
Or maybe for Italians fighting spirit means b!tching around for 60 minutes?! :rolleyes:

truefan72

2nd July 2010, 23:51

You must be confusing me for somone who actually gives a #### about your opinion of me! None the less why did you come on this thread? To contradict a new member when his legit opinion is being borne out with facts!! Massa wasted kimi in 2008 and to Kimi's credit he played his part as a supporting member. Ferrari supporters appreciate his contributions as far as you know!

sure have a strange way of appreciating his contributions

new poster trashes kimi, I explain to the poster that Kimi actually was better than he thinks and actually won the WDC for you, as well as explaining that your team works hard to improve their cars no matter who is driving them and you take this post as some sort of afront on Ferrari or Alonso or whatever. I'm not sure what is truly bothering you but I beleive my post is the least of your worries. Anger management would be a start, perhaps reading the post would be the next step, and then maybe learning how to interpret information without seeing "enemies at the gate" would be a third. Until then, i fear you and I can't have much of a conversation. This is an open forum to anyone and this particular thread is not an exclusive club where comments will go unchallenged because the narrative suits your opinions.

By the looks of things, it seems that you are the only one going off wildly about my original post, so perhaps you might want to rethink your approach towards others http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Tazio

3rd July 2010, 00:49

sure have a strange way of appreciating his contributions

new poster trashes kimi, I explain to the poster that Kimi actually was better than he thinks and actually won the WDC for you, as well as explaining that your team works hard to improve their cars no matter who is driving them and you take this post as some sort of afront on Ferrari or Alonso or whatever. I'm not sure what is truly bothering you but I beleive my post is the least of your worries. Anger management would be a start, perhaps reading the post would be the next step, and then maybe learning how to interpret information without seeing "enemies at the gate" would be a third. Until then, i fear you and I can't have much of a conversation. This is an open forum to anyone and this particular thread is not an exclusive club where comments will go unchallenged because the narrative suits your opinions.

By the looks of things, it seems that you are the only one going off wildly about my original post, so perhaps you might want to rethink your approach towards others http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gifNo!! I've moved on, You can think about it all you want! Carry on! :dozey:

pallone col bracciale

3rd July 2010, 08:03

Kimi always had a laid back attitude however rubbishing him for other people's decision is completely out of line.

True, it was not his decision, but he rolled over without a fight.

Great Ferrari drivers do not do that.

ioan

3rd July 2010, 08:16

True, it was not his decision, but he rolled over without a fight.

Great Ferrari drivers do not do that.

They threw him out of the team, why would he care?
I wonder what do you know about great Ferrari drivers?!
You rubbish a Ferrari WDC while gushing over Alonso who, for now, contributed nothing to the great Ferrari history.

Mia 01

3rd July 2010, 10:24

How do you know he rolled over wothout a fight? Nobody here was present in that boardroom at Maranello, and I can't imagine Kimi backed up by his manager Steve Robertson would have taken it lightly. Are you aware of Robertson's reputation? He's shrewd, and had Ron Dennis over a barrel more than once, and Ron is no pushover. Lets not forget Robertson negotiated an obscene $50M a season contract with Ferrari, and they accepted. ;)

Kimi is a Ferrari champion and his record at Ferrari is still very impressive, but Ferrari (Luca) wanted a new lead driver as their obsession with finding the next Michael Schumacher is still at the top of the list. Once again they purchased the most desirable driver on the grid and that was Alonso. Its still early days but Alonso is yet to prove his worth within the team and has had a season so far littered with mistakes and misfortune.

I still find it amazing though the total lack of respect some Ferrari fans give to Kimi almost as though he owes them something.. Two WCC's and a WDC in 3 season's isn't bad is it? Wow.. :mark:

A very good post!

pallone col bracciale

3rd July 2010, 12:03

How do you know he rolled over wothout a fight?

I watched the 2008 & 2009 seasons.

It appears you didn't see them, but they were on the television.

I still find it amazing though the total lack of respect some Ferrari fans give to Kimi almost as though he owes them something

And I don't find it surprising that it is a Mclaren fan saying it.

pallone col bracciale

3rd July 2010, 12:05

I wonder what do you know about great Ferrari drivers?!
You rubbish a Ferrari WDC while gushing over Alonso who, for now, contributed nothing to the great Ferrari history.

Lauda, Scheckter, Schumacher. They were great Ferrari drivers.

Alonso still has the chance to be....something Kimi does not. His chance has gone.

ioan

3rd July 2010, 12:11

Lauda, Scheckter, Schumacher. They were great Ferrari drivers.

Posting a list of names is useless, what do you know about them?!

Alonso still has the chance to be....something Kimi does not. His chance has gone.

As far as I am concerned up to this moment Kimi did more for Ferrari than Alonso.

You chose to support the driver who probably said eh worse things about Ferrari in the past and in the same time you are trashing a driver who, championship to Ferrari.

Tazio

3rd July 2010, 12:29

Tazio

3rd July 2010, 12:36

Posting a list of names is useless, what do you know about them?!

You chose to support the driver who probably said eh worse things about Ferrari in the past Kimi said very little about anything!
Weve come full circle. Now as was stated, Fred is very engaged at Ferrari.
Kimi is gone, why waste time on him? He is one in a long line of great Ferrari Pilots. What else does he deserve?

F1boat

3rd July 2010, 13:20

Posting a list of names is useless, what do you know about them?!

As far as I am concerned up to this moment Kimi did more for Ferrari than Alonso.

You chose to support the driver who probably said eh worse things about Ferrari in the past and in the same time you are trashing a driver who, championship to Ferrari.

I dunno why is this Alonso - Kimi fight. I supported Kimi while he was a Ferrari driver and I support Alonso now. Both are amazing drivers with amazing talent. That's it.

CaptainRaiden

3rd July 2010, 13:28

True, it was not his decision, but he rolled over without a fight.

Great Ferrari drivers do not do that.

Luca? Stefano?? :eek:

Someone with such a flawed logic can only be one of the two men who are leading Ferrari right now. It's funny how they assumed that finding the next Schumacher, i.e. getting Alonso and his magical "6 tenths" would be enough for them to win the WDC, while they forgot the three much more important aspects of the team that won all those championships, Jean Todt, Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne.

If not for Kimi, Ferrari would have finished 3rd in the Drivers World Championship in 2007.

Tazio

3rd July 2010, 13:49

Luca? Stefano?? :eek:

Someone with such a flawed logic can only be one of the two men who are leading Ferrari right now. It's funny how they assumed that finding the next Schumacher, i.e. getting Alonso and his magical "6 tenths" would be enough for them to win the WDC, while they forgot the three much more important aspects of the team that won all those championships, Jean Todt, Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne.

If not for Kimi, Ferrari would have finished 3rd in the Drivers World Championship in 2007.Even if Mike stayed?
Hold the phone chief. This season is 1/2 over, a little early to be writing it off.
I know what a big Kimi honk you are.
in 2005 Fred beat Kimi straight up. That Mclaren was as fast or faster than the Renault! (although Kimi did have a perpensity of detonating it) :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

ioan

3rd July 2010, 15:25

If not for Kimi, Ferrari would have finished 3rd in the Drivers World Championship in 2007.

Not sure if you thought twice before coming up with this one.

ioan

3rd July 2010, 15:25

That Mclaren was as fast or faster than the Renault! (although Kimi did have a perpensity of detonating it) :rolleyes:

Rubbish.

Tazio

3rd July 2010, 16:19

Rubbish.
It was worth a try ;)

Tazio

3rd July 2010, 22:08

Indy car at watkins glen!
http://www.atdhe.net/

Tazio

3rd July 2010, 22:23

I was always a big proponent of Kimi I made the most profound post about him this site has ever had! Predicting his championship win!
And while I was gone I was on a far superior forum that only problem was lack of participation in numbers. In fact there is a link on this forum right now from a contributor that is an engineer for an F1 team. I've returned empowered. I've got your fight hangin' bro'
Here is a nickles worth of free advice "Don't look back"
Have a happy 4th ;)

:wave: :talk:

Tazio

4th July 2010, 02:06

Saint Devote

4th July 2010, 02:53

Luca? Stefano?? :eek:

Someone with such a flawed logic can only be one of the two men who are leading Ferrari right now. It's funny how they assumed that finding the next Schumacher, i.e. getting Alonso and his magical "6 tenths" would be enough for them to win the WDC, while they forgot the three much more important aspects of the team that won all those championships, Jean Todt, Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne.

If not for Kimi, Ferrari would have finished 3rd in the Drivers World Championship in 2007.

Felipe Massa missed out on the WDC in 2008 by a single point and this fighting the might of Mclaren and Lewis Hamilton the first driver in f1 history to have been trained for almost TEN years for the job.

In 2008, Massa was the best driver in F1 and in 2009 he outdrove Raikkonen until his accident.

Massa is still there and is being essentially shafted by Ferrari in much the same way that Rosberg is now by Mercedes.

Pity that.

It demonstrates the weakness of Ferrari and Mercedes versus the management strength of Frank Williams and Patrick head. Understand this and you understand problems that both the teams have.

Tazio

4th July 2010, 03:46

Felipe Massa missed out on the WDC in 2008 by a single point and this fighting the might of Mclaren and Lewis Hamilton the first driver in f1 history to have been trained for almost TEN years for the job.

In 2008, Massa was the best driver in F1 and in 2009 he outdrove Raikkonen until his accident.

Massa is still there and is being essentially shafted by Ferrari in much the same way that Rosberg is now by Mercedes.

Pity that.

It demonstrates the weakness of Ferrari and Mercedes versus the management strength of Frank Williams and Patrick head. Understand this and you understand problems that both the teams have.

And how is Felipe being held back or “shafted”?

Plus you just repeated a reply I made and twisted it to fit your oversimplified agenda!

I gave Kimi plenty of love when he was with the Scuderia. Now he is history he was beaten by Felipe
in 2008, and was behind (slightly) Massa in 2009 before his injury. Kimi really did yeoman’s duty after that event, but he didn’t excel in that car at the time Massa and he drove it.
The season is at the 1/2 way point.
I could argue the same thing about "The Boss",
groomed for the team for more years then Felipe, only to have the reigning WDC brought on board. I see no distinction. What seems to have gone over your head is that these guys are all warriors, and like "The Boss" FM has just gotten on with it! Everything else is projection!
Here is my view or projection;
Bunsen, and FM are behind guys who have gotten where they are right now on merit!
I know you gave up on your man Jense already! Personally I think Stefano D and the technical people at Ferrari have done well and it's too early for me to draw such conclusions! Your opinions seem to change daily :p :
You are however certainly entitled to them. I think I agree with most people That Luca di is a pin head. But they have won in the past in spite of him.
And obviously Ross, Jean, and Rory are not setting the world afire at their new venues! :dozey:

Saint Devote

4th July 2010, 04:43

And how is Felipe being held back or “shafted”?

Plus you just repeated a reply I made and twisted it to fit your oversimplified agenda!

The season is at the 1/2 way point.
I could argue the same thing about "The Boss",
groomed for the team for more years then Felipe, only to have the reigning WDC brought on board. I see no distinction. What seems to have gone over your head is that these guys are all warriors, and like "The Boss" FM has just gotten on with it! Everything else is projection!
Here is my view or projection;
Bunsen, and FM are behind guys who have gotten where they are right now on merit!
I know you gave up on your man Jense already! Personally I think Stefano D and the technical people at Ferrari have done well and it's too early for me to draw such conclusions! Your opinions seem to change daily :p :
You are however certainly entitled to them. I think I agree with most people That Luca di is a pin head. But they have won in the past in spite of him.
And obviously Ross, Jean, and Rory are not setting the world afire at their new venues! :dozey:

Upon consideration, your message above does not deserve a reply because it is sub-par.

pallone col bracciale

4th July 2010, 08:42

Maybe if you had been a member here over the last season's you would have seen this subject extensively discussed and you would be slightly wiser on kimi's position

Grazie, but I was unaware that you operated a time-served seniority system in this forum which over-ruled others opinions.

Are you a moderator? Your name is not on the list, that is all.

wmcot

4th July 2010, 09:08

Wow, let's change the title of this forum to "Ferrari Fans bashing Ferrari Fans" Forum. Who needs McLaren fans bashing Ferrari when Ferrari fans are doing a fine job on our own?

DexDexter

4th July 2010, 09:39

But not in 2009. Which was last year. Not a long time ago, only last year. Then, they stopped developing the F60.

Fernando Alonso was not the driver then.

Whoever it was did not have the ability or desire to fight his corner well enough to stop the decision not to develop the car he was driving.

Which I, as a Tifosi, find unacceptable.

Whatever his faults, a lack of fight and determination is not an accusation that can be aimed at the current Ferrari lead driver, which I, as a Ferrari fan, am very happy about.

I do not believe a real Ferrari fan would think much differently.

Since you've taken the role of a certain Imola corner as the official Kimi-basher here, I've got a question for you: What has Alonso done so far at Ferrari that justifies the huge amounts of money they are paying Kimi for not to race? How has Ferrari improved as a team compared to 2009? Waiving hands about more? Stupid comments after races when a driver cannot control his temperament?

I've stated it many times over here but Kimi's "failure" at Ferrari was a cultural thing, it was not about racing a Formula One car.

pallone col bracciale

4th July 2010, 13:38

The F60 was the worst car Ferrari had produced since their 21 year barren spell (1979-2000), and Kimi came away with a win and 3 podiums.

Scusi, but this is just totally incorrect.

If you are going to talk about the history of the Scuderia, perhaps you should lecture people less on their knowledge until yours is complete?

The F92 and F93s were terrible cars, barely capable of podiums. The F60 was a far better car than those.

pallone col bracciale

4th July 2010, 13:40

What has Alonso done so far at Ferrari that justifies the huge amounts of money they are paying Kimi for not to race?

Beating his team-mate, for a start.

That alone was worth parking your countryman. He hadn't done so for 2 years.

pallone col bracciale

4th July 2010, 14:31

pallone col bracciale

4th July 2010, 14:55

What are you talking about?

I apologise for not reading as carefully as I should.

But still the F60 was not the worst car, the F2005 was worse, it just had a better driver in it.

Saint Devote

4th July 2010, 17:51

Wow, let's change the title of this forum to "Ferrari Fans bashing Ferrari Fans" Forum. Who needs McLaren fans bashing Ferrari when Ferrari fans are doing a fine job on our own?

As a fan of neither team, I think a Ferrari civil war is actually VERY Ferrari. It was only the 2000 - 2004 that Ferrari anything was different that way :vader:

DexDexter

4th July 2010, 21:55

It was also better for Ferrari to have a driver who will bring focus to the team from the cockpit, instead of somebody who did not and never would.

That was worth paying an extra $18million for.

With Kimi in the cockpit, the Scuderia had no direction on the race track. We have that now.

But the results are not better, that's the bottom line. So they are paying one guy 18 millions not to race and the new guy is doing a similar job.... He's outqualified Massa more often than not but so did Räikkönen in 2007 (in his first year) and that was before Massa was almost killed.

DexDexter

4th July 2010, 22:15

On that note we'll agree to disagree. No offence taken.. :)

I haven't seen that many non-native English speakers use expressions like "barren". :D :D

Mia 01

4th July 2010, 22:20

Theres a need for Ferrari to grab lots of points this race at Silverstone.

I´m not so sure they can afford to slip further back.

CaptainRaiden

5th July 2010, 05:42

Even if Mike stayed?
Hold the phone chief. This season is 1/2 over, a little early to be writing it off.
I know what a big Kimi honk you are.
in 2005 Fred beat Kimi straight up. That Mclaren was as fast or faster than the Renault! (although Kimi did have a perpensity of detonating it) :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Probably your memory is a little hazy, let me refresh it. The Mclaren wasn't on par Renault in the first three races, where Alonso built his lead. Kimi's first pole position that year was San Marino, he was leading comfortably until his "car" had driveshaft problems and retired. From then on, the Mclaren failed SIX times, either in qualifying or in race, and he had to do those recovery drives.

I don't know why the F1 fans don't understand that if Kimi was a car wrecker, how did he magically ironed that part out in 2007? What a load of bull! Would it be really that hard to admit that for the first time he had a reliable car, and hence delivered a championship?

Not sure if you thought twice before coming up with this one.

Really? Wasn't Massa behind both the Mclaren drivers in the championship, and wasn't he already kicking Schumacher's behind in 2006, albeit inconsistently? Oh wait, but yeah, I guess I'm wrong, he would have never been allowed to be more than a lapdog as long as Schumacher was around. So, yeah, I take my words back. Ferrari wouldn't have won the 2007 championship if not for Kimi. Alonso or Lewis would have taken it.

ShiftingGears

5th July 2010, 05:54

So, yeah, I take my words back. Ferrari wouldn't have won the 2007 championship if not for Kimi. Alonso or Lewis would have taken it.

McLaren wouldn'tve won constructors because they cheated, and there's no guarantee that their drivers would've outscored Massa if they didn't cheat.

Tazio

5th July 2010, 07:11

Adios fella's,
When I came back to this forum and thought I would try to do some research, dig up IMG's of Ferrari's F10B upgrades, and do my level best to do the legwork of compiling it, and presenting it. Only to find that anti Ferrari members only use this as a platform to deride the team from the top down. Then I found myself getting sucked into the,” I can out insult you game”. I think I will just let this thread go the same way every other thread does. Be closed by the Mod's or fade away.
This too shall pass :wave:

CaptainRaiden

5th July 2010, 12:51

McLaren wouldn'tve won constructors because they cheated, and there's no guarantee that their drivers would've outscored Massa if they didn't cheat.

I wasn't talking about the constructors championship, but the drivers championship, which I believe Ferrari wouldn't have won without Kimi.

jens

5th July 2010, 18:33

I wasn't talking about the constructors championship, but the drivers championship, which I believe Ferrari wouldn't have won without Kimi.

Depends on who would have been instead of him in the car. It's worth remembering that Kimi was struggling quite notably in the first half of 2007 and was as many as 26 points off the lead at one point, so overall his season wasn't that impressive even if the second half of the season was. I personally think that the best performer of 2007 was - as incredible as it may sound - Heidfeld.

Big Ben

5th July 2010, 20:33

CaptainRaiden

6th July 2010, 08:45

Depends on who would have been instead of him in the car. It's worth remembering that Kimi was struggling quite notably in the first half of 2007 and was as many as 26 points off the lead at one point, so overall his season wasn't that impressive even if the second half of the season was. I personally think that the best performer of 2007 was - as incredible as it may sound - Heidfeld.

Arguably the Mclaren was the best car in 2007, at least on the majority of the circuits, and to win the championship against them is a pretty good feat in itself, and that too in his first year in a new car going against a credible teammate who had been in the team for the previous two years, defeating even Schumacher on various occassions.

At the end of the year, he had 6 victories with both Fernando and Lewis at 4 apiece. Add to that, Kimi had two mechanical failures throwing away points, compared to no mechanical failures for both Mclarens, only mistakes, Lewis in China and Alonso in Japan.

So, IMO in 2007 his performance was a hell of a lot better than what a lot of people give him credit for, especially some races where he won because of sheer speed, like Silverstone where he beat both Mclarens during pitstops due to incredible lap times. Sure, his performance waned in the coming years, but 2007 showed what he can do when his head is screwed on right.

pallone col bracciale

6th July 2010, 13:06

So, IMO in 2007 his performance was a hell of a lot better than what a lot of people give him credit for, especially some races where he won because of sheer speed, like Silverstone where he beat both Mclarens during pitstops due to incredible lap times. Sure, his performance waned in the coming years, but 2007 showed what he can do when his head is screwed on right.

For Kimi, 2007 was excellent, I do not disagree. But it was because his "performance waned" and he didn't always have his "head screwed on right" that he was no loss to the Scuderia at the end of 2009.

A top driver must deliver 100% all the time, not only when everything is good.

DonJippo

6th July 2010, 13:22

A top driver must deliver 100% all the time, not only when everything is good.

How do you measure that? When everything is not right, let's say car is not perfect, how do one measure if a driver is delivering 100% or not? Are we still expecting a driver to be able to win or is a top 8 result ok? Where do we set the limits for 100% delivery?

SGWilko

6th July 2010, 14:47

How do you measure that? When everything is not right, let's say car is not perfect, how do one measure if a driver is delivering 100% or not?

Lick yer finger then stick it in the air - very accurate apparently.

pallone col bracciale

6th July 2010, 18:09

How do you measure that? When everything is not right, let's say car is not perfect, how do one measure if a driver is delivering 100% or not? Are we still expecting a driver to be able to win or is a top 8 result ok? Where do we set the limits for 100% delivery?

Attitude and desire.

Results can come and go, but the passion must not.

airshifter

6th July 2010, 22:54

Attitude and desire.

Results can come and go, but the passion must not.

So if Alonso tosses the car into the wall at Monaco yet fails to bring home a title it's ok if he remains passionate? I don't even think Enzo would agree that performance should take a back seat to passion.

Kimi and Ferrari have one thing in common that Alonso and Ferrari do not. And that is a WDC.

I'm surprised that so called tifosi are using this thread to bash Kimi, or any driver, especially if they bring home a title for Ferrari. I've openly stated that I can only consider myself borderline tifosi, and I really don't think that greatly of Alonso, but I'd still like to see either him or Felipe come back strong and bring the WDC to Ferrari.

Someone please help as my memory isn't so good.... but when was the last year the WDC was won by a Ferrari driver, and what was his name?

pallone col bracciale

7th July 2010, 21:43

So if Alonso tosses the car into the wall at Monaco yet fails to bring home a title it's ok if he remains passionate? I don't even think Enzo would agree that performance should take a back seat to passion.

You need to know more about Enzo Ferrari.

Kimi and Ferrari have one thing in common that Alonso and Ferrari do not. And that is a WDC.

Had Kimi won a WDC in a Ferrari by the halfway point of a season?

The answer is "No".

Only Schumacher achieved that.

Kimi came into a team that knew how to win, something that Fernando has not been so lucky to do. Kimi was lucky his predecessor left him the legacy of a championship-capable seat. Fernando has received no such charity.

truefan72

7th July 2010, 23:18

lol, priceless analysis here

You need to know more about Enzo Ferrari.
and you know him personally right? you know his thinking, his knowledge his passions,
ridiculous

Had Kimi won a WDC in a Ferrari by the halfway point of a season?

The answer is "No".

Only Schumacher achieved that.
Is that your standard for being a Ferrari driver?
and exactly how many times did MSC achieve that?
I guess the other 5 championships were below your standards then and were not worthy of being a "true" ferrari driver :down:

Kimi came into a team that knew how to win, something that Fernando has not been so lucky to do. Kimi was lucky his predecessor left him the legacy of a championship-capable seat. Fernando has received no such charity.

what are you talking about, Kimi came from Mclaren a team that knew how to win pretty darn well, with drivers like prost, senna, lauda, Hakkinen, all driving for them. Meanwhile alonso came from a team that knew how to win as well, after winning 2 championships with them and the same team that gave MSC his first 2 WDC's. But I guess a little thing like history or actually knowing the facts gets in the way of your red mist.

Btw in 2005 & 2006 prior to Kimi joining them, Ferrari were according to your reasoning, losers.
So kimi actually came to the team and made them winners (by your logic)

Saint Devote

8th July 2010, 00:58

So if Alonso tosses the car into the wall at Monaco yet fails to bring home a title it's ok if he remains passionate? I don't even think Enzo would agree that performance should take a back seat to passion.

Enzo Ferrari was along those lines - but you also have to remember he only hired good drivers, so in addition to crashing they would also win.

I realize this is not the history section so - the best illustration of his attitude to drivers that people here might be able to relate to is how he was with Gilles.

Between Raikkonen and Alonso - he would go for Alonso everytime I think, and would have tried Raikonnen but then fired him well before Luca pushed him out.

The secret to being a Ferrari driver was knowing when to leave. You do not just driver for a team there, you are co-opted to drive for a nation.

Saint Devote

8th July 2010, 01:06

Attitude and desire.

Results can come and go, but the passion must not.

Absolutely :D
At Mclaren drivers can be like dead fishes.

mstillhere

8th July 2010, 05:33

I see that everyone here is anything at their disposal. History, geography, nationa;lities, etc.

I had not idea that F1 required so much knowledge. For the Mc:aren fans you are buring tyhe Ferrari team way too early. And the fact that you mightr be haed of the red cars does not mean you are going to finish in fornt of the RB team. So, relax. And save your ammunition for later. Who knows, somebody might just lose by.......ONE point again :) )))

SGWilko

8th July 2010, 07:27

You need to know more about Enzo Ferrari.

Had Kimi won a WDC in a Ferrari by the halfway point of a season?

The answer is "No".

Only Schumacher achieved that.

Kimi came into a team that knew how to win, something that Fernando has not been so lucky to do. Kimi was lucky his predecessor left him the legacy of a championship-capable seat. Fernando has received no such charity.

That's a good one - championship capable seat my @r5e.

Shoe couldn't win since the dominance of 04. So it took a change of pilot in 07 to bring the championship.

Twit.

pino

8th July 2010, 09:22

As posted in another thread...quit personal comments/insults right now or you'be sent on vacation for a long time ! And yes I am sick and tired of asking this all the time :mad:

airshifter

8th July 2010, 22:04

You need to know more about Enzo Ferrari.

Perhaps you can give examples of the Enzo Ferrari that didn't take the attitude of win at all costs. I certainly haven't seen reference to them. He even went so far as to have race schedules changed to retain the title the Shelby Daytonas were about to win.

Had Kimi won a WDC in a Ferrari by the halfway point of a season?

The answer is "No".

Only Schumacher achieved that.

Kimi came into a team that knew how to win, something that Fernando has not been so lucky to do. Kimi was lucky his predecessor left him the legacy of a championship-capable seat. Fernando has received no such charity.

In what season had Schumacher won the title half way through the season? Unless you are looking at date lines rather than half the races, I'm not seeing that.

Granted that Alonso came into a seat not as capable, as the Brawn and Red Bull cars made up and surpassed the Ferrari in performance in 2009. But regardless of that, I see no reason to degrade Kimi for performing very well and winning a WDC in a car that was among the best at the time.

As for 2008 Kimi finished just one position behind his team mate Felipe in the WDC standings, so it's not as if he didn't perform at all.

pallone col bracciale

9th July 2010, 12:26

Perhaps you can give examples of the Enzo Ferrari that didn't take the attitude of win at all costs. I certainly haven't seen reference to them. He even went so far as to have race schedules changed to retain the title the Shelby Daytonas were about to win.

Exactly right. Winning at all costs, yes, that was Enzo. Everytime his cars raced.

Which was what I was saying. Which is why the Raikkonen of 2008 and 2009 would not have pleased the great man. 2007, nobody was being critical....but since then, Kimi did not show the hunger. A Ferrari driver must display passion, attitude and desire.

But, even though I expect you will not agree, I thank you for being polite and discussing this in a sensible manner.

jens

9th July 2010, 20:31

Perhaps you can give examples of the Enzo Ferrari that didn't take the attitude of win at all costs. I certainly haven't seen reference to them. He even went so far as to have race schedules changed to retain the title the Shelby Daytonas were about to win.

Despite Ferrari having basically the car-driver combo to beat in '75-'77, Enzo and Niki Lauda fell out in 1977. So that's what I would call one example. Another former WDC, who suddenly left Ferrari, was Surtees in 1966.

jens

9th July 2010, 20:33

I don't even think Enzo would agree that performance should take a back seat to passion.

We may debate, what can be meant by the "passion" part, but certainly some interesting examples can be found from Enzo's 'era' as well. Despite Ferrari having basically the car-driver combo to beat in '75-'77, Enzo and Niki Lauda fell out in 1977. Another former WDC, who suddenly left Ferrari, was Surtees in 1966.

airshifter

10th July 2010, 01:58

Exactly right. Winning at all costs, yes, that was Enzo. Everytime his cars raced.

Which was what I was saying. Which is why the Raikkonen of 2008 and 2009 would not have pleased the great man. 2007, nobody was being critical....but since then, Kimi did not show the hunger. A Ferrari driver must display passion, attitude and desire.

But, even though I expect you will not agree, I thank you for being polite and discussing this in a sensible manner.

I guess we just see his driving in a different light. In 2008 Kimi gave up points on several occasions due to mechanical problems during the race, and at seasons end gave up position to help Felipe. In France he yielded first place to Massa when he had his exhaust problem, and in Monaco he suffered a drive through due to team infractions not of his doing. Combined with Lewis running into him on the pit lane in Canada, and his mechanical issues during qually in the season opener, Kimi really actually drove well all season. IIRC he set 9 or 10 fastest laps in 2008, which I'm sure is hard to do if you have no passion.

As for 2009 Felipe was beating him fairly until Felipe had his accident, but I don't think even the tifosi can claim that Ferrari had a competitive car as compared to the Red Bull and Mclaren cars.

As for sensible discussion, I don't see any need for anything else in most cases. Some here can actually just agree to disagree if it comes to that.

pallone col bracciale

10th July 2010, 09:18

As for 2009 Felipe was beating him fairly until Felipe had his accident, but I don't think even the tifosi can claim that Ferrari had a competitive car as compared to the Red Bull and Mclaren cars.

But if a car is competitive or not, it should not matter.

Attitude and desire should not be car dependant. If anything, a poor car should bring more dedication from the driver. It is a very important part of the drivers input to the team.

pallone col bracciale

10th July 2010, 09:27

On the current Ferrari situation, it appears that the upgrades are not special but have maintained the performance/position of the F10 in comparison to the Red Bulls.

I think that Fernando can score well if he has some good fortune.

Hopefully this weekend Ferrari will not be hindered by themselves, but of course this is always likely for the Scuderia...or by back markers....or by questionable ethics of another team.

Garry Walker

10th July 2010, 09:28

You need to know more about Enzo Ferrari.

Enzo was about as much an asshole as a person can be.

pallone col bracciale

10th July 2010, 09:41

That could be true. Nice people do not make legend.

Garry Walker

10th July 2010, 10:17

That could be true. Nice people do not make legend.

What does one say to such nonsense?

pallone col bracciale

10th July 2010, 10:26

I am sorry if you do not agree. Life can be like this, sometimes, but respect costs little.

Saint Devote

10th July 2010, 11:50

I am sorry if you do not agree. Life can be like this, sometimes, but respect costs little.

You will discover that there are quite a few people here when they cannot get their own way will become extremely disrespectful.

And over the past few days I have been subject to this as well.

Unfortunately not much is done about it usually by the moderators as there are those here permitted to break the rule.

mstillhere

11th July 2010, 03:49

What does one say to such nonsense?

My guess is that to become very successful in life, at times you have to take unpopular decisions, although they are the right decitions, that may make you look like not such a nice guy. But you know that, so...

jens

11th July 2010, 17:32

Mia 01

12th July 2010, 21:10

Now its obvious, they have to take Kimi back.

He wont come cheap.

TMorel

13th July 2010, 01:08

henners,
Please tell me that was from spluttering your tea and not from getting "over excited"

mstillhere

13th July 2010, 14:42

Hmm, why the current Ferrari reminds the team from the mid-90's? With every passing race the parallel becomes more clear. The car is inconsistent, but mostly has good enough pace to challenge for podiums, on some circuits even for a win. Generally it ends up with getting one win per year (like Ferrari has got so far) and finishing a distant third in WCC. Even Alonso starts reminding that mercurial Alesi - seriously quick, but not always rational driver behind the wheel. The main difference is that reliability is a lot better nowadays instead of a guaranteed smoke in every second race.

I tend to agree with you. What p...ed me off was to hear Dominicali talking about how to take care of the cluch. THE CLUCH?? That was supposed to be taken care of a 1,000 years ago. Next race is going to be the car keys:
"Well, Alonso said he left them in the garage, but I looked in there and I did not find them. We think Massa has something to do with it, but...." :(

wedge

13th July 2010, 15:43

Hmm, why the current Ferrari reminds the team from the mid-90's? With every passing race the parallel becomes more clear. The car is inconsistent, but mostly has good enough pace to challenge for podiums, on some circuits even for a win. Generally it ends up with getting one win per year (like Ferrari has got so far) and finishing a distant third in WCC. Even Alonso starts reminding that mercurial Alesi - seriously quick, but not always rational driver behind the wheel. The main difference is that reliability is a lot better nowadays instead of a guaranteed smoke in every second race.

Alonso was nearly mentally unbeatable at Renault when he won b2b WDCs.

For some reason at Ferrari Alonso has been making driving errors far too regularly and for the most part avoidable:

Bad start in Melbourne

Jump start in China

Crashing and destroying his race car during practice in Monaco

Arguably mis-handled traffic at Canada, possibly bad timing at encountering

Not giving back position to Kubica at Silverstone and incurring penalty.

Ranger

13th July 2010, 16:32

Not giving back position to Kubica at Silverstone and incurring penalty.

That was not his fault.

Ferrari were told three times by the stewards to give the position back before the drive-through, not one of those were forwarded to Alonso.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85258

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali said the team did not ask Alonso to let Kubica through because it did not feel the Spaniard has gained an advantage.

wedge

13th July 2010, 16:41

That was not his fault.

Ferrari were told three times by the stewards to give the position back before the drive-through, not one of those were forwarded to Alonso.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85258

You don't need to be told. He's got enough extra capacity to decide between awaiting a decision or save the bother by giving back the place and try again to overtake Kubica because Kubica blatantly had an inferior car to Alonso.

Ranger

13th July 2010, 17:01

You don't need to be told. He's got enough extra capacity to decide between awaiting a decision or save the bother by giving back the place and try again to overtake Kubica because Kubica blatantly had an inferior car to Alonso.

There's no excuse for Ferrari not telling Alonso what the stewards told them.

The onus is on the team, not the driver.

Mia 01

13th July 2010, 19:50

There's no excuse for Ferrari not telling Alonso what the stewards told them.

The onus is on the team, not the driver.

I don´t agree. I have a feeling that the Ferrari team are afraid of Alonso, afraid of his temper. He is their only hope, a tiny one.

Roamy

14th July 2010, 06:22

i think the leader of Ferrari is a douche bag - bring in flavio

truefan72

14th July 2010, 07:25

That was not his fault.

Ferrari were told three times by the stewards to give the position back before the drive-through, not one of those were forwarded to Alonso.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85258

well then Alonso only has his team to blame.because they cost him dearly. Yes the mistake was his, but the bigger mistake was made by the team. I sincerely doubt Todt would have made that same judgement. Alonso cannot be happy about this. Then again he could have given the spot back himself and then showed the world he could take kubica again.

DexDexter

14th July 2010, 07:54

well then Alonso only has his team to blame.because they cost him dearly. Yes the mistake was his, but the bigger mistake was made by the team. I sincerely doubt Todt would have made that same judgement. Alonso cannot be happy about this. Then again he could have given the spot back himself and then showed the world he could take kubica again.

I don't understand why they didn't give the place back, it was cutting a corner plain and simple. It was obvious that they were going to get a penalty. Something is wrong when armchair enthusiasts can call a situation better than professionals.

wmcot

14th July 2010, 09:15

I don't understand why they didn't give the place back, it was cutting a corner plain and simple. It was obvious that they were going to get a penalty. Something is wrong when armchair enthusiasts can call a situation better than professionals.

After watching the incident a few times, I have mixed feelings. At first it seems obvious that Alonso passed by cutting the corner. But looking at it over again, Kubica did not leave him any room on the track. It was either touch wheels or cut the corner.

This ruling sets up a precedent. If you are being overtaken on a corner, force the other driver off the track. If he happens to come out ahead of you, he'll have to give you the position back. If not, then you have succeeded in keeping him behind.

It's a kind of gray area that needs to be straightened out. If you can't attempt an overtake because you might go on the grass (or whatever) and have to give the position back, then why bother? F1 will become more processional.

I can see a big difference in two cars battling for position when there is not enough track for both of them so one runs off the track and the obvious cutting a corner by late-braking and straight-lining the turn to pass.

Drivers do have to race to make the sport interesting for us fans. Look at the classic battle of Dijon 1979 between Villeneuve and Arnoux - how many times were those drivers off the track with all 4 wheels?

If nobody is to cut anymore corners, I suggest the FIA install armco around each circuit like at Monaco and we can all watch a parade of pretty colored cars every two weeks.

markabilly

14th July 2010, 14:32

After watching the incident a few times, I have mixed feelings. At first it seems obvious that Alonso passed by cutting the corner. But looking at it over again, Kubica did not leave him any room on the track. It was either touch wheels or cut the corner.

This ruling sets up a precedent. If you are being overtaken on a corner, force the other driver off the track. If he happens to come out ahead of you, he'll have to give you the position back. If not, then you have succeeded in keeping him behind.

It's a kind of gray area that needs to be straightened out. If you can't attempt an overtake because you might go on the grass (or whatever) and have to give the position back, then why bother? F1 will become more processional.

I can see a big difference in two cars battling for position when there is not enough track for both of them so one runs off the track and the obvious cutting a corner by late-braking and straight-lining the turn to pass.

Drivers do have to race to make the sport interesting for us fans. Look at the classic battle of Dijon 1979 between Villeneuve and Arnoux - how many times were those drivers off the track with all 4 wheels?

If nobody is to cut anymore corners, I suggest the FIA install armco around each circuit like at Monaco and we can all watch a parade of pretty colored cars every two weeks.
Pretty much my point earlier, except it appearred to me from the onboard that they bumped...but clearly he went off course not because he could not make the corner but to avoid contact or as a result of contact

wedge

14th July 2010, 15:55

It's a kind of gray area that needs to be straightened out.

It was a racing incident and therefore a grey area. Ferrari were within their right to allow the stewards have the final say and certainly not on the advice of Charlie Whiting.

pallone col bracciale

14th July 2010, 16:04

A disappointing race in many ways, as can sometimes happen, but the driver keeps fighting!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85243

Bravissimo! A fighters heart, not a mangiatore del gelato!

wmcot

17th July 2010, 09:34

It was a racing incident and therefore a grey area. Ferrari were within their right to allow the stewards have the final say and certainly not on the advice of Charlie Whiting.

But the stewards should have a very limited time to correct problems like this. I suggested in another post that they should have 3 laps to make their decision (but they should have made this one in 15 seconds or less.) I think that's fair - drivers have 3 laps to serve their penalty, stewards should have 3 laps to determine if there should be a penalty. If it takes longer than that, it must not be a definite infraction so the racing should carry on. No more of these "incidents to be investigated after the race" garbage!

Mia 01

17th July 2010, 13:29

Ferrari need to replace Alonso next year, or accept that they not are a top brand in F1 any moore.

wmcot

19th July 2010, 08:51

Ferrari need to replace Alonso next year, or accept that they not are a top brand in F1 any moore.

So you are saying that if Ferrari got rid of Alonso they would suddenly be back at the top of F1 again?

Are you just making up posts because you are bored or are you on something? If so, please share with the rest of us!

ShiftingGears

19th July 2010, 09:14

So you are saying that if Ferrari got rid of Alonso they would suddenly be back at the top of F1 again?

Are you just making up posts because you are bored or are you on something? If so, please share with the rest of us!

She will claim that anyone in a semi-decent car needs to be sacked and replaced by Kimi, while ignoring the fact that Kimi just isn't interested in F1 anymore.

Dave B

19th July 2010, 10:47

Ferrari need to replace Alonso next year, or accept that they not are a top brand in F1 any moore.
Eh? :\

I'm no fan of Alonso, but even I recognise that he's one of the top drivers on the grid, a double world champion, and in some areas a marketing masterstroke. Who would you replace him with - other than drivers already under contract such as Vettel, Hamilton or Kubica?

Retro Formula 1

19th July 2010, 11:47

Eh? :\

I'm no fan of Alonso, but even I recognise that he's one of the top drivers on the grid, a double world champion, and in some areas a marketing masterstroke. Who would you replace him with - other than drivers already under contract such as Vettel, Hamilton or Kubica?

I think we all need to learn to ignore her. It is very rare that she offers any constructive contribution to the forum but just posts these pathetic one liners that have as much to do with reality as the Labour Governments economic policy. In fact, there seems to be a lot of similarity :)

Alonso is one of the 2 best drivers out there today and Ferrari will always be the top Brand in F1 until a time they decide to withdraw.

Bagwan

19th July 2010, 13:14

I think we all need to learn to ignore her. It is very rare that she offers any constructive contribution to the forum but just posts these pathetic one liners that have as much to do with reality as the Labour Governments economic policy. In fact, there seems to be a lot of similarity :)

Alonso is one of the 2 best drivers out there today and Ferrari will always be the top Brand in F1 until a time they decide to withdraw.

She has her opinion .
Ignore her , or debate with her .

Demeaning her in public for a different opinion , or a different way of expressing herself , is petty at best .
PM her if you have an issue , please .

I'd love to see Kimi back , but he seems to be having too much fun rallying .
And Alonso fits Ferrari much better than Kimi ever did .
He displays the temper and passion needed to boil the Latin blood .

Shifter

19th July 2010, 18:09

Bagwan

19th July 2010, 18:48

This forced-off debate needs one clarifying point...these controversies always arise due to an off-track pass, and always at chicanes. Chicanes are extremely difficult places to overtake if the overtaking driver is on the outside going into the first turn of a chicane. The driver who is being overtaken, when they have the inside line of a chicane, has the unique opportunity therein as a chicane allows them to be ahead, claiming the line legitimately and has the right to go for the apex on the exit turn of the chicane. We have seen this scenario and controversy play out in Spa, Hungary and Suzuka in the recent past. In every occurance, the overtaking driver attempted the pass on the outside of the first turn of the chicane, went off, took the position and was penalized. This is the precedent, and I agree it is the correct one.

The only way to make a pass work in a chicane is to be on the inside of the first corner. If you are on the outside, you will be forced off every time.

I think , to an extent , it depends on how tight the chicane is , but I don't think there are any on the calendar that are so tight that two cars cannot make it through at the same time .

Even though it might be said that you have a distinct advantage going into any given corner , there is still the obligation to allow room for a driver that is beside you on track .

In this particular case , Ferrari were told that they would review it after the race . This points to the fact that there was at least some question about whether he would need to give the place back , and his positoning having been beside Robert was what was in contention .

Though I agree that the place might easily have been given back , and controversy avoided altogether , it seems as though the decision to discuss was rather forthrightly dropped when ugly timing for Ferrari was best .

They said they would discuss after the race .
Since the timing of the SC was in the middle of it all , a delay would be understandable . The situation was already a mess , so to sort it out a good while after the SC would allow for some debate , and also space the cars out to a state a little more like it was before the SC , and seem to make more sense .
Then , the penalty might have been more fitting for the crime .

Kubica slid deep , in order to keep Fernando at bay , but Alonso had committed to going outside .
It simply was two different plans , that couldn't both work .

As they were both legitimate plans , though , I feel there was room for debate about what to do .

As it turned out , it ends up being a penalty far worse than intended , for an infraction that was debatable in the first place .
And , that debate was suggested by the body that issued the penalty only moments later .

Does it sound fair to you ?

ioan

19th July 2010, 22:35

I think , to an extent , it depends on how tight the chicane is , but I don't think there are any on the calendar that are so tight that two cars cannot make it through at the same time .

Even though it might be said that you have a distinct advantage going into any given corner , there is still the obligation to allow room for a driver that is beside you on track .

In this particular case , Ferrari were told that they would review it after the race . This points to the fact that there was at least some question about whether he would need to give the place back , and his positoning having been beside Robert was what was in contention .

Though I agree that the place might easily have been given back , and controversy avoided altogether , it seems as though the decision to discuss was rather forthrightly dropped when ugly timing for Ferrari was best .

They said they would discuss after the race .
Since the timing of the SC was in the middle of it all , a delay would be understandable . The situation was already a mess , so to sort it out a good while after the SC would allow for some debate , and also space the cars out to a state a little more like it was before the SC , and seem to make more sense .
Then , the penalty might have been more fitting for the crime .

Kubica slid deep , in order to keep Fernando at bay , but Alonso had committed to going outside .
It simply was two different plans , that couldn't both work .

As they were both legitimate plans , though , I feel there was room for debate about what to do .

As it turned out , it ends up being a penalty far worse than intended , for an infraction that was debatable in the first place .
And , that debate was suggested by the body that issued the penalty only moments later .

Does it sound fair to you ?

You are right, this was another example of the typical nonsense decision process that we have got from Charlie and his stewards for quite some time now.

airshifter

20th July 2010, 04:04

I think , to an extent , it depends on how tight the chicane is , but I don't think there are any on the calendar that are so tight that two cars cannot make it through at the same time .

Even though it might be said that you have a distinct advantage going into any given corner , there is still the obligation to allow room for a driver that is beside you on track .

I can agree that any chicane on the calendar can fit two cars, but certainly can't agree that the car leading has an obligation to allow room for a driver trying to overtake.

It is the obligation of the car overtaking to take control of the line by leading into the corner, and until that point the one allowed move to block can be executed by the leading car. I'm not saying that at any time should a driver intentionally take someone else off the track during such a pass, even though the rules allow it. But if the lead driver has already committed to the line, he can't simply adjust in a split second due to the fact that someone charges up on the outside.

One of the best chicane passes in years has been Montoya taking Schumacher at Spa in 2004. A brilliant well timed move, showing just how well it can be done.

But in this case, I think Fernando and everyone in the Ferrari team should have known instantly that the pass was not legit, and instructed Alonso to give back the position. Though I agree 100% that the delay and process was completely flawed in handing out the penalty, it should have been avoided by the team and/or driver before it reached that point.

rohanweb

20th July 2010, 20:39

I can agree that any chicane on the calendar can fit two cars, but certainly can't agree that the car leading has an obligation to allow room for a driver trying to overtake.

It is the obligation of the car overtaking to take control of the line by leading into the corner, and until that point the one allowed move to block can be executed by the leading car. I'm not saying that at any time should a driver intentionally take someone else off the track during such a pass, even though the rules allow it. But if the lead driver has already committed to the line, he can't simply adjust in a split second due to the fact that someone charges up on the outside.

One of the best chicane passes in years has been Montoya taking Schumacher at Spa in 2004. A brilliant well timed move, showing just how well it can be done.

But in this case, I think Fernando and everyone in the Ferrari team should have known instantly that the pass was not legit, and instructed Alonso to give back the position. Though I agree 100% that the delay and process was completely flawed in handing out the penalty, it should have been avoided by the team and/or driver before it reached that point.

lots of sensible talk here.
i dont see any way forward winnings for ferrari unless luca de marshmallow get rid of domenicali ( give the job to adrian newey or bring in like Ross braun)

i seriously believe there is a big problem going on at ferrari with alonso on board, the car is capable but not drivers this season.

i would jhave barrichello back in a ferrari, he could drive the williams in to 4th and 5th place and i refuse to rule out what barrichello would have done in a ferrari? think about it !!!

its not bad luck and others screwing ferrari, its bad leadership management, a hot tempered whinging driver whom cannot make the most out of his race day (alonso) and a driver is nowhere near his team mate really making any difference in race conditions.

its a disaster for ferrari right now.

DexDexter

20th July 2010, 21:51

So you are saying that if Ferrari got rid of Alonso they would suddenly be back at the top of F1 again?

Are you just making up posts because you are bored or are you on something? If so, please share with the rest of us!

Well, many thought the strategy of giving the boot to a world champion was right last year, why not this year? Nothing has changed for the better, driverwise. On a more serious note...Ferrari need to get Newey or Brawn back.

Mia 01

20th July 2010, 21:52

They are not leading the development side anymoore as they did a couple of years back.

Now they risk falling further back.

SGWilko

22nd July 2010, 15:04

Perhaps the old crook is joining the Scuderia in 2013? :p

....as director of fairness?

Roamy

22nd July 2010, 15:56

Found this interesting snippet where Briatore has apparently held a meeting with Domenicali and LdM.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/07/why-did-flavio-briatore-visit-ferrari/

Perhaps the old crook is joining the Scuderia in 2013? :p

probably a consulting role now and then team principal in 2013.
This guy knows how to win and how to cheat so he will fit right in.
viva ferrari

TMorel

22nd July 2010, 16:03

Has Webber cut all ties with Flav now?

ShiftingGears

22nd July 2010, 17:20

Has Webber cut all ties with Flav now?

I believe so - as all drivers did when his ban was introduced.

ioan

22nd July 2010, 17:38

Found this interesting snippet where Briatore has apparently held a meeting with Domenicali and LdM.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/07/why-did-flavio-briatore-visit-ferrari/

Perhaps the old crook is joining the Scuderia in 2013? :p

This would be one more reason not to cheer for them.

Saint Devote

23rd July 2010, 01:47

Has Webber cut all ties with Flav now?

Not at all.
Webber has openly remained with him - under the appeal the drivers he reperesents were not forced to end ties with him.

In a recent interview Webber has said that he owes Flavio a great deal and is still close to him. Along with Bernie and Alonso who did not turn his back on his buddy.

Flavio still has a lot of good friends in pit lane as does Pat Symonds. Sure they made a mistake and it was a BIG mistake - but that is the past and it would be great to have both men in pit lane again.

F1 people, especially those who have been around for a long time know the history of f1 and what has occurred in the past. Briatore is not the worst by FAR.

Let bygones be bygones and start afresh. War is war and business is business.

One of the best lines was Flavio when asked about the legality of a double diffuser said - of course not, why not TRIPLE diffuser, CONDIMINIUM diffuser! :-]]]

In his wonderful accent and Italian flair!

Welcome back Flav! Ciaou!

pallone col bracciale

23rd July 2010, 14:55

Briatore would be good for Ferrari.

The Scuderias greatest success came when we had a "bxxxxxd" who could out "bxxxxxd" the Inglese squadras "bxxxxxds".

This is what we need again.

Forget "Fair Play". When the other teams are fair, then so to will Ferrari be. Until then, it is a war, not amore.

SGWilko

23rd July 2010, 14:59

The Scuderias greatest success came when we had a "bxxxxxd" who could out "bxxxxxd" the Inglese squadras "bxxxxxds".

Perhaps they should just "f**k the f*****g f*****s rather than try to out b*****d them.

You will, I hope, excuse my French? ;)

ioan

23rd July 2010, 15:00

Briatore would be good for Ferrari.

Sure, being Italian qualifies him for that.

Dave B

23rd July 2010, 15:00

If Briatore is the answer, I dread to think what the question was. :s

Retro Formula 1

23rd July 2010, 15:01

Forget "Fair Play". When the other teams are fair, then so to will Ferrari be. Until then, it is a war, not amore.

Actually, it the first time for many a year that the playing field is fair. You are either ignorant of the facts or hypocritical to claim anything else after the proven FIA bias in favour of the Scuderia.

Ferrari are welcome to Flav if the mighty name of Ferrari wants to be dragged through the mud. Nobody apart from you wish to see that I hope :(

SGWilko

23rd July 2010, 15:02

If Briatore is the answer, I dread to think what the question was. :s

Easy peasy, lemon squeezy;

If I've got Dick Dastardly in one hand, and the father from the UK 80's soap Bread in the other, what do I have?

http://cdn2.ioffer.com/img/item/994/271/97/FxPT1q9Do1If1ik.jpg

Not a very good pic, but you'll get the gist I'm sure.....

I am evil Homer

23rd July 2010, 15:07

If Briatore is the answer, I dread to think what the question was. :s

How far will you go to secure a race win?

SGWilko

23rd July 2010, 15:09

How far will you go to secure a race win?

I go all'a the way, baby. Now, is'a good time to 'ave a nap as Naomi is'a coming for a grappa.......

pallone col bracciale

23rd July 2010, 19:19

Actually, it the first time for many a year that the playing field is fair. You are either ignorant of the facts or hypocritical to claim anything else after the proven FIA bias in favour of the Scuderia.

I have watched Formula One for long enough to remember that there is nobody who is fair, only some who can hide it better.

No, that is not quite correct....Domenicali may be a fair man. This is why I would not be upset by Briatore replacing him.

pallone col bracciale

23rd July 2010, 19:21

Perhaps they should just "f**k the f*****g f*****s rather than try to out b*****d them.

Yes, that is an acceptable option, I believe.

truefan72

23rd July 2010, 20:01

How far will you go to secure a race win?

lol

Mia 01

23rd July 2010, 21:00

Alonso needs a win this wekeend. He needs lots of luck.

pallone col bracciale

24th July 2010, 14:44

Excellent qualifying for the Scuderia.

Bravissimo Fernando. 1/2 second quicker than Felipe.

That is a team leaders performance.

ioan

24th July 2010, 15:05

Mushrooms.

wedge

24th July 2010, 16:01

Alonso needs a win this wekeend. He needs lots of luck.

No, he doesn't need luck.

He needs to remember take the bung out of his rectum before he sits in his cockpit.

SGWilko

24th July 2010, 17:48

Excellent qualifying for the Scuderia.

Bravissimo Fernando. 1/2 second quicker than Felipe.

That is a team leaders performance.

He's stil 1/10th short though.......

pino

24th July 2010, 19:10

Great job so far, now let's not spoil everything in the race with wrong strategy and poor performance by drivers :s

truefan72

24th July 2010, 19:28

it will be interesting to see how the 2 drivers get along during the race

ShiftingGears

24th July 2010, 19:29

Great job so far, now let's not spoil everything in the race with wrong strategy and poor performance by drivers :s

Massa has been quite lacking in pace this year, I have to wonder how much the accident affected him, even though he will adamently deny it having any effect on him whatsoever.

If Alonso nails this race and wins it I will be very surprised.

pallone col bracciale

24th July 2010, 20:30

He's stil 1/10th short though.......

Can I assume that you are making a reference to the "6/10ths" comment made by Alonso when he joined Mclaren?

If so, you may wish to re-think your mathematics.

Allow me to point out this -

The last GP held at Hockenheim....

2008 German Grand Prix Qualifying - Massa P2, 1:15.859
Raikkonen P6, 1:16.389

A difference of 4/10ths of a second, I believe.

Now, the 2010 German Grand Prix Qualifying has Felipe Massa 5/10ths of a second slower than his team-mate.

So, as can be seen, Alonso has brought more than 6/10ths on this occasion.

Grazie mille.

pallone col bracciale

24th July 2010, 20:32

Great job so far, now let's not spoil everything in the race with wrong strategy and poor performance by drivers :s

Mr Pino, this is the Scuderia....if any team can find a way to spoil it, they will!

ioan

24th July 2010, 20:40

Can I assume that you are making a reference to the "6/10ths" comment made by Alonso when he joined Mclaren?

If so, you may wish to re-think your mathematics.

Allow me to point out this -

The last GP held at Hockenheim....

2008 German Grand Prix Qualifying - Massa P2, 1:15.859
Raikkonen P6, 1:16.389

A difference of 4/10ths of a second, I believe.

Now, the 2010 German Grand Prix Qualifying has Felipe Massa 5/10ths of a second slower than his team-mate.

So, as can be seen, Alonso has brought more than 6/10ths on this occasion.

Grazie mille.

I wonder how far this fiction can go?! :D

pallone col bracciale

24th July 2010, 20:43

I wonder how far this fiction can go?! :D

Those qualifying times are facts, not fiction.

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2008/796/6537/

ioan

24th July 2010, 22:05

Those qualifying times are facts, not fiction.

http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2008/796/6537/

When someone compares bananas and apples I call it fiction.

pallone col bracciale

25th July 2010, 09:32

When someone compares bananas and apples I call it fiction.

That is your perogative.

ShiftingGears

25th July 2010, 09:52

I wonder how far this fiction can go?! :D

It's pretty funny. It's not as if Ferrari are running their '09 car this weekend..

ioan

25th July 2010, 10:12

It's pretty funny. It's not as if Ferrari are running their '09 car this weekend..

;)

pallone col bracciale

25th July 2010, 11:05

It's pretty funny. It's not as if Ferrari are running their '09 car this weekend..

Nor were they in 2008, the last time Hockenheim was used.

Which is why I did not reference the F60 or the 2009 German GP.

It is a simple fact that Alonso is 5/10ths quicker in qualifying than his team-mate at Hockenheim, who previously was 4/10ths quicker at this venue than the driver replaced by Alonso.

I believe this is exactly what Ferrari had hoped would be achieved by bringing Alonso to the team.

It is therefore exactly the kind of performance that is desired of a team leader driver, something Ferrari have not had since 2006.

ShiftingGears

25th July 2010, 11:58

Nor were they in 2008, the last time Hockenheim was used.

Which is why I did not reference the F60 or the 2009 German GP.

It is a simple fact that Alonso is 5/10ths quicker in qualifying than his team-mate at Hockenheim, who previously was 4/10ths quicker at this venue than the driver replaced by Alonso.

I believe this is exactly what Ferrari had hoped would be achieved by bringing Alonso to the team.

It is therefore exactly the kind of performance that is desired of a team leader driver, something Ferrari have not had since 2006.

2008. Same deal. I do think the 6/10ths comment was a stupid one, considering that he did not beat Hamilton on points in Hamilton's debut year, and Renault did not show much improvement for much of the time he was there.

Also he has proven consistently faster than Massa, but then again Massa has not been performing to the best of his ability. I feel that his injury has taken its toll. And as I have mentioned earlier, Alonso hasn't had a great season either.

ioan

25th July 2010, 14:30

Good luck to those who still supports these scums.

Robinho

25th July 2010, 14:53

that was disgusting, blatant and totally unwarranted, i hope they get what they richly deserve for that little show

ioan

25th July 2010, 15:12

that was disgusting, blatant and totally unwarranted, i hope they get what they richly deserve for that little show

I am fairly convinced that nothing will happen, sadly.

I have got to the point where McLaren seem to me to have much more integrity then Ferrari, at least they have kicked this Spanish scum (driver and sponsors) out at the first chance.

CNR

25th July 2010, 15:14

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/203773/barrichello-admits-ferrari-team-orders/

Rubens Barrichello has admitted the Ferrari team gave him clear team orders in his years at Ferrari. The Brazilian was Ferrari's second driver and was even threatened to get fired if he wouldn't move over for team mate Schumacher.

truefan72

25th July 2010, 15:24

funny how Alonso was complaining about manipulated races in Valencia and then goes ahead and whines to his team so they can fabricate a victory for him because his teammate was clearly outdriving him.

what a pathetic guy

TMorel

25th July 2010, 15:37

Luca Colajanni says Ferrari did not ask Massa to pull over, it was all his own decision, so there we go that puts this subject to bed and we have no need to discuss it any more [phew]

donKey jote

25th July 2010, 15:59

I am fairly convinced that nothing will happen, sadly.

I have got to the point where McLaren seem to me to have much more integrity then Ferrari, at least they have kicked this Spanish scum (driver and sponsors) out at the first chance.
Have they got rid of the Spanish owned sponsors too?
Your Mikey isn´t in Ferrari anymore, cry me a river
boohoo :laugh:

ioan

25th July 2010, 16:23

Have they got rid of the Spanish owned sponsors too?
Your Mikey isn´t in Ferrari anymore, cry me a river
boohoo :laugh:

Yes they did given that they never renewed the contract with them.

I am fairly happy that MS isn't there anymore, he Todt and Brawn were all pushed out to make place for the Italians sponsored by the guys who sit in the back of the garage and decide the outcome of the race.

Garry Walker

25th July 2010, 17:03

Luca Colajanni says Ferrari did not ask Massa to pull over, it was all his own decision, so there we go that puts this subject to bed and we have no need to discuss it any more [phew]

And you think Colajanni can say it public that they ordered Massa to move over?

I hope Ferrari gets banned and Alonso crashes out from every race on from now on

donKey jote

25th July 2010, 17:19

Yes they did given that they never renewed the contract with them.
fair enough then :)

pallone col bracciale

25th July 2010, 17:43

ioan

25th July 2010, 17:49

:rotflmao:

CaptainRaiden

25th July 2010, 17:56

FANTASTICO!!!!! Exactly the result we needed and exactly the actions that Domenicali had to make. At last, he has shown guts.

The people who cry....did they cry when Kovalianen let Hamilton past in 2008?

Dude, really? You cry Fantastico over THIS? Do none of the Ferrari fans have any backbone? I think if Ferrari organized their own little series, where they fabricate every race result, as long as a Ferrari wins, these so called "tifosi" wouldn't mind spending money to watch that.

What a disgrace for a so called "Racing" team. :down:

ioan

25th July 2010, 18:06

Dude, really? You cry Fantastico over THIS? Do none of the Ferrari fans have any backbone? I think if Ferrari organized their own little series, where they fabricate every race result, as long as a Ferrari wins, these so called "tifosi" wouldn't mind spending money to watch that.

What a disgrace for a so called "Racing" team. :down:

Fully agreed.

pallone col bracciale

25th July 2010, 18:08

I want Ferrari to win.

I do not care if it displeases some nobody.

CaptainRaiden

25th July 2010, 18:17

I want Ferrari to win.

I do not care if it displeases some nobody.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought I was talking to a fan of "Racing". Didn't know there are fans of this bloodsucking, corrupt, soulless racing arm of the FIAT group.

PSfan

25th July 2010, 18:23

FANTASTICO!!!!! Exactly the result we needed and exactly the actions that Domenicali had to make. At last, he has shown guts.

The people who cry....did they cry when Kovalianen let Hamilton past in 2008? :rotflmao:

???

Do you forget what you have already posted in this thread?

I thought I'll start a thread in which Ferrari fans will be able to discuss their opinion about their favorite teams strong points but also shortcomings.

Those who are not Ferrari fans are not welcome to spit their venom around here!

This thread shouldn't be turned into my driver is better than your either, if you want to discuss it do it somewhere else!

It's all about the red team and their good and bad achievements, to be discussed by those who are interested to talk about it in a civilized manner!

Now that all this is clear all the tifosi are welcome to criticize and praise the doings of their favorite team. :)

I am only now shedding my dislike for the team enough to be comfortable enough to post in this thread. But I shouldn't have to remind you that this thread is hardly unique, not so many years ago we had the "only mark webber fans" thread that I respected to stay out of...

In a thread YOU created for sanctuary you shouldn't be ridiculing Ferrari fans

donKey jote

25th July 2010, 18:27

Do you forget what you have already posted in this thread?
In a thread YOU created for sanctuary
now now, no need to rub his nose in it :)

... you beat me to it :dozey: :laugh:

PSfan

25th July 2010, 18:30

Felipe or the millions of fans who feel cheated when they witnessed a manipulated result here today?

I'm sure Felipe gifted Kimi a few positions and perhaps even a win or 2 in 2007... I think Kimi made some attempt to return the favor in 2008, So after some reflection I am sure Massa will get over it... and maybe next year Alonso might have to return the favor :cheese:

As for the millions of fans, I think they are acting like sheep and are only P-Oed because they are being told to be P-Oed. I'm sure the last 30 wdc benefited by team in some form or another!!!

CaptainRaiden

25th July 2010, 18:38

I'm sure Felipe gifted Kimi a few positions and perhaps even a win or 2 in 2007... I think Kimi made some attempt to return the favor in 2008

The only win Felipe gifted to Kimi was the Brazilian GP in 2007, which Kimi reciprocated in 2008 at Shanghai. The 2007 Brazilian GP was the last race of the season, and also the title decider, not with FRIGGIN 8 races to go where both drivers have a mathematical chance of winning the title.

ioan

25th July 2010, 18:48

???

Do you forget what you have already posted in this thread?

I am only now shedding my dislike for the team enough to be comfortable enough to post in this thread. But I shouldn't have to remind you that this thread is hardly unique, not so many years ago we had the "only mark webber fans" thread that I respected to stay out of...

In a thread YOU created for sanctuary you shouldn't be ridiculing Ferrari fans

Yep. Everything changed.
For me they are done, a bunch of crappy spineless losers whom I am happy to dislike.
Maybe I'll start the Ferrari dislike thread too.

pallone col bracciale

25th July 2010, 18:51

Yep. Everything changed.
For me they are done, a bunch of crappy spineless losers whom I am happy to dislike.
Maybe I'll start the Ferrari dislike thread too.

Arrivederci traditore.

You are a Nigel Stepney, I see.

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 18:53

This day ferrari once morre bringed the sport into disrepute.

I´m afrad that the WMSC don´t take it lightly.

ioan

25th July 2010, 18:58

Arrivederci traditore.

You are a Nigel Stepney, I see.

Don't get your hopes to high, no arrivederci yet, I'll be around to rub a bit of salt in.

donKey jote

25th July 2010, 19:00

Maybe I'll start the Ferrari dislike thread too.
good idea :laugh:

ioan

25th July 2010, 19:01

good idea :laugh:

I see you were very helpful! :p

donKey jote

25th July 2010, 19:14

ioan

25th July 2010, 20:32

Well I'm quite shocked to see sources on the internet with Tifosi caling for Smedley to be sacked for making it obvious that Felipe was carrying out a team order.. WTF? Do these people realise that we saw Massa lifting off the gas and allowing Alonso through. I'm pretty sure I would have noticed a lame overtake like that lol.

Does anybody here think he should be sacked, or maybe he would be right to leave at the end of his current contract? I'd certainly like to see him at Mclaren. Obviously this incident will all be forgotten within the team within a couple of weeks and Smedley and Felipe wll be getting on with the job, but its fun to discuss.. :)

If I had a F1 team I would hire Smedley and Massa without a second thought. I am wondering why don't they simply leave Ferrari to deny them any chance at winning the titles with Alonso and Badoer.
Probably they are looking for a good payout when Ferrari decides to end their contracts.

I don't think the incident will be forgotten so fast. It might even happen again soon.

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 20:38

If I had a F1 team I would hire Smedley and Massa without a second thought. I am wondering why don't they simply leave Ferrari to deny them any chance at winning the titles with Alonso and Badoer.
Probably they are looking for a good payout when Ferrari decides to end their contracts.

I don't think the incident will be forgotten so fast. It might even happen again soon.

Agreed

And sorry to say, Rob will be sacked most likely and i´m afraid that massas contract is also up in the air perhaps.

The mighty fernado.

pallone col bracciale

25th July 2010, 20:57

Robinho

25th July 2010, 21:01

Any Tifosi who thinks that is, how do you English say?, a "twit".

Apologies if my spelling is not correct.

There was no team order, no instruction. Just information about relative pace that Felipe made a decision about.

Much like how Kova did in 2008 at the same track.

but in that case the team bettered their overall result. thats just practical. Altering the order of the result with no gain for the team and when no driver is the only in the championship hunt is quite different. Same as those saying teams should be pealised for calling off the fight, telling drivers to hold position or "conserve fuel", this is a totally different situation

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 21:06

Will Felipe ever win a race for ferrari again?

Big Ben

25th July 2010, 21:08

If I had a F1 team I would hire Smedley and Massa without a second thought. I am wondering why don't they simply leave Ferrari to deny them any chance at winning the titles with Alonso and Badoer.
Probably they are looking for a good payout when Ferrari decides to end their contracts.

I don't think the incident will be forgotten so fast. It might even happen again soon.

well... HRT needs some compeition for that last spot doesn´t it?

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 21:17

Some drivers with the help of their teams wants to win at all costs, they don´t care about the regulations.

It´s sad that some fans can´t see this.

Shalafi

25th July 2010, 21:17

Will Felipe ever win a race for ferrari again?

For sure, if that whining bitch named Alonso has troubles in a race where Ferrari is good. Massa is a very good driver.

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 21:23

For sure, if that whining bitch named Alonso has troubles in a race where Ferrari is good. Massa is a very good driver.

Hope so. On his day he is the best, but for now hes forced into a corner.

Shalafi

25th July 2010, 21:25

Hope so. On his day he is the best, but for now hes forced into a corner.

At least he WAS best on his day.. still not sure that accident havent effect his ability. But you dont have to be a best to beat Alonso. Just look Hamilton in his rookie year...

ioan

25th July 2010, 21:35

Some drivers with the help of their teams wants to win at all costs, they don´t care about the regulations.

It´s sad that some fans can´t see this.

Don't be naive, they all see it, the problem is that they along with Ferrari believe that the others are stupid and can't see it, so they deny everything no matter how clear the situation.

ioan

25th July 2010, 21:37

At least he WAS best on his day.. still not sure that accident havent effect his ability. But you dont have to be a best to beat Alonso. Just look Hamilton in his rookie year...

Exactly. The 'mighty' 6 tenths driver got beaten by a rookie and then threw out of the team.

F1boat

25th July 2010, 21:45

They have to deny it, they want to keep the points. Still, Ferrari again risks hard earned points with ridiculous decisions, like in UK when Alonso did not let Kubica pass. Stupid.

ioan

25th July 2010, 21:54

They have to deny it, they want to keep the points. Still, Ferrari again risks hard earned points with ridiculous decisions, like in UK when Alonso did not let Kubica pass. Stupid.

You're right. They are stupid, incredibly stupid. And this is nothing less then what I expected from this team management.

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 22:14

At least he WAS best on his day.. still not sure that accident havent effect his ability. But you dont have to be a best to beat Alonso. Just look Hamilton in his rookie year...

Agreed. I belive teamorders and the best car have helped alonso a bit, elswhere we heard of it.

Mia 01

25th July 2010, 22:52

And, on a serous not, I´m afraid that we will not see Rob any moore in the team.

donKey jote

26th July 2010, 00:49

but in that case the team bettered their overall result. thats just practical. Altering the order of the result with no gain for the team and when no driver is the only in the championship hunt is quite different. Same as those saying teams should be pealised for calling off the fight, telling drivers to hold position or "conserve fuel", this is a totally different situation
I take it you're not referring to Monaco 2007, where the whole Big Boo Man Saga started :laugh:

or was it even earlier, when our Jense got the boot from Renault?

Robinho

26th July 2010, 09:39

I take it you're not referring to Monaco 2007, where the whole Big Boo Man Saga started :laugh:

or was it even earlier, when our Jense got the boot from Renault?

i actualy thought Monac o was a sensible position, Alonso had track position and although Lewis was arguably quicker he was never going to pass and them fighting was only going to end in tears. sensible team decision to hold position. the same should have happened yesterday imo

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 10:02

At least he WAS best on his day.. still not sure that accident havent effect his ability....

Massa's issue I believe is a confidence thing - it's in the mind.

HE has grown in confidence, and being able to beat Kimi on occasion he grew as a driver.

The accident knocked that confidence, and when he finally shows signs of regaining the confidence, his team stamp on it. :down:

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 14:42

Great job so far, now let's not spoil everything in the race with wrong strategy and poor performance by drivers :s

Can you see into the future Pino? Clearly you can!!! ;)

ArrowsFA1

26th July 2010, 15:58

The accident knocked that confidence, and when he finally shows signs of regaining the confidence, his team stamp on it. :down:
In the words of the infamous Gene Hunt: "Anything happens to this motor, I'll come 'round your houses and stamp on all your toys. Got it?" :p :

SGWilko

26th July 2010, 16:01

In the words of the infamous Gene Hunt: "Anything happens to this motor, I'll come 'round your houses and stamp on all your toys. Got it?" :p :

How topical - currently on series 2 of LOM. Very good it is too.

pallone col bracciale

26th July 2010, 20:36

You can believe what you want, but I don't consider myself to be that naive and with the post race interviews with Felipe confirming our suspicions, I'll leave it at that. :)

Felipes post race comments confirmed nothing, except that he had taken the decision.

You have no proof. There was no order.

ioan

26th July 2010, 20:49

Felipes post race comments confirmed nothing, except that he had taken the decision.

You have no proof. There was no order.

Luca gave the proof today, it was team orders and he doesn't care what others think about it.

What else are you going to deny now?!

truefan72

26th July 2010, 21:28

Luca gave the proof today, it was team orders and he doesn't care what others think about it.

What else are you going to deny now?!

watch, it will switch from denial to full on support of LdM and that it was always correct, etc, etc,

Garry Walker

26th July 2010, 22:04

Felipes post race comments confirmed nothing, except that he had taken the decision.

You have no proof. There was no order.

:rotflmao:

Oh how much fun the docs would have with you.

pallone col bracciale

27th July 2010, 14:36

Luca gave the proof today, it was team orders and he doesn't care what others think about it.

What else are you going to deny now?!

Please show the proof that Luca confirms that team orders were given.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85587

He does not expressly state anywhere that Ferrari have used team orders in Germany.

So, where is your proof?

Retro Formula 1

27th July 2010, 15:41

Please show the proof that Luca confirms that team orders were given.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85587

He does not expressly state anywhere that Ferrari have used team orders in Germany.

So, where is your proof?

I appreciate that English may not be your first language so I will translate into clearer words.

"I simply reaffirm what I have always maintained, which is that our drivers are very well aware, and it is something they have to stick to, that if one races for Ferrari, then the interests of the team come before those of the individual.

They are racing under the teams direction and not their own

"In any case, these things have happened since the days of Nuvolari and I experienced it myself when I was Sporting Director, in the days of Niki Lauda and not just then."

This is in response to the subject of team orders.

So, big white chief comes out and confirms the drivers race for the team, not themselves and it's always been the same.

I am sure the hard of understanding will quite happily claim he hasn't come out and said "Massa was ordered to move over" but if you are the sort interested in Polemics rather than debate, then I am wasting my time trying to communicate with you.