The Ferrari thread !

[Bagwan]

Still: $100,000 for 7 points is pretty good value. Every little helps :p

It is , indeed , Davey .

But , don't forget that the original intention was to have them for free .

Two "rogue" employees took the initiative to make it obvious , and gain sympathy for the "hard done by" driver , causing the team to be fined and reprimanded .

The "free pass" is what you get when you don't make it obvious .
And , "obvious" seems to mean tone of voice , "sorry" , and a crowd of fans yelling about team orders being banned , despite seeing it , in the same words , many times , even this year .

Heikki knew what his team wanted , and didn't complain , and was lauded for his team thinking . And this , being honourable in a secondary role , is what being the devoted number two should be all about .
That's what Dennis was all gushy about .

Gilles did his time as number two , and nobody seems to mind . And some think it was the disturbance of his own number two passing him that lead him to the distraction that contributed to his demise .

When it's my turn to wash the toilet , I wash the toilet , and I don't complain . I just wash the thing the best way I know how , and perform the best job I can .

Smedley and Massa should be on toilet duty for a long time to make up for this .
Then , the pi$$y faces would fit .

[SGWilko]

It is , indeed , Davey .

But , don't forget that the original intention was to have them for free .

Two "rogue" employees took the initiative to make it obvious , and gain sympathy for the "hard done by" driver , causing the team to be fined and reprimanded .

The "free pass" is what you get when you don't make it obvious .
And , "obvious" seems to mean tone of voice , "sorry" , and a crowd of fans yelling about team orders being banned , despite seeing it , in the same words , many times , even this year .

Heikki knew what his team wanted , and didn't complain , and was lauded for his team thinking . And this , being honourable in a secondary role , is what being the devoted number two should be all about .
That's what Dennis was all gushy about .

Gilles did his time as number two , and nobody seems to mind . And some think it was the disturbance of his own number two passing him that lead him to the distraction that contributed to his demise .

When it's my turn to wash the toilet , I wash the toilet , and I don't complain . I just wash the thing the best way I know how , and perform the best job I can .

Smedley and Massa should be on toilet duty for a long time to make up for this .
Then , the pi$$y faces would fit .

The above narrative assumes, of course, that the contract Massa signed obliges him to 'do as asked' by the team. However, to do so in the German GP case would be against the rules, no? So, Massa abiding by the rules, is suddenly the bad guy?

As for the toilet analogy, if you were not the oik that 'sprinkled when you tinkled' or left 'third degree skids' in the bowl, you'd clean it regardless of being your turn or not would you????

[Bagwan]

The above narrative assumes, of course, that the contract Massa signed obliges him to 'do as asked' by the team. However, to do so in the German GP case would be against the rules, no? So, Massa abiding by the rules, is suddenly the bad guy?

As for the toilet analogy, if you were not the oik that 'sprinkled when you tinkled' or left 'third degree skids' in the bowl, you'd clean it regardless of being your turn or not would you????

His employer told his engineer exactly what to say to him .
The way he delivered the message was what got them in trouble .

To assume that anyone's employer should have the right to ask any employee to do as asked is not really a stretch , is it ?
Sign up , do the job , get a paycheque .
The choice is clear .

And , the choice was clear for Felipe , and for Smedley .
They both did as told , but did not do it subtly enough to escape sanction .

Massa did what he was told , or , more correctly , made the logical decision , when told the situation .
He didn't like it , and needed to be told three times .
When finally he relented , and did as his employer expected , he and his engineer made it obvious .

The toilet to which I referred earlier , I own . I have employees in the restaurant who I could ask to do it always , but I take my turn .
And , there is no complaint .

Recently , I had an employee who wouldn't wash the toilet . Her actions disrupted the whole apple cart , as others had to fill in , and do that part of her job , the most disgusting part .
She doesn't work for me any more .

Perhaps you'll drop in for a couple of skid marks some day , so I can take my turn with a worthy opponent .

[SGWilko]

Perhaps you'll drop in for a couple of skid marks some day , so I can take my turn with a worthy opponent .

I am afraid I cannot do 'number two's' in a public toilet. For some reason, in that predicament, my sphincta and my brain refuse to talk to each other. The fact the general public have access to the same loo renders me wholly unable to relax......

I am sure you understand that at times this can be a right royal pain in the a*se, literally. :D

[Dave B]

I am afraid I cannot do 'number two's' in a public toilet. For some reason, in that predicament, my sphincta and my brain refuse to talk to each other. The fact the general public have access to the same loo renders me wholly unable to relax......

I am sure you understand that at times this can be a right royal pain in the a*se, literally. :D
:rotflmao:

I'm almost crying...

[Bagwan]

I am afraid I cannot do 'number two's' in a public toilet. For some reason, in that predicament, my sphincta and my brain refuse to talk to each other. The fact the general public have access to the same loo renders me wholly unable to relax......

I am sure you understand that at times this can be a right royal pain in the a*se, literally. :D

So , I will assume you understand the analogy now , and will ask if you have any comment for the rest of the post .

[Bagwan]

:rotflmao:

I'm almost crying...

Is it your turn to clean the toilet , Davey ?

[SGWilko]

and will ask if you have any comment for the rest of the post .

If I had, I would. As I hadn't, I didn't.

[SGWilko]

Is it your turn to clean the toilet , Davey ?

He has Kim and Aggy to clean his...... ;)

[Bagwan]

If I had, I would. As I hadn't, I didn't.

Let me make it clear .

I would have fired Felipe on the spot .
I would have told him to pit and get out of my car .

[ArrowsFA1]

Two "rogue" employees took the initiative to make it obvious...
One hopes that they don't become disillusioned and buy a tin of travel sweets :p :

(I'll get my coat :burnout: )

[Dave B]

Is it your turn to clean the toilet , Davey ?
These threads drive me round the bend...

:p

[SGWilko]

Let me make it clear .

I would have fired Felipe on the spot .
I would have told him to pit and get out of my car .

Well, they've got Luca Badoer and Giancarlo to capably stand in..........


....you might well be onto something there........

[SGWilko]

These threads drive me round the bend...

:p

I'm all, ahem, aflush, with laughter.......

[SGWilko]

His employer told his engineer exactly what to say to him .
The way he delivered the message was what got them in trouble .

On the forth time of asking maybe, how did he sound on the previous occasions? We don't know do we?


To assume that anyone's employer should have the right to ask any employee to do as asked is not really a stretch , is it ?
Sign up , do the job , get a paycheque .
The choice is clear .

Employment law sees the employer with surprisingly few ways to hold the upper ground in a dispute. If asked to leave, Massa could make a rather large sum out of Ferrari and make them look rather stupid.


And , the choice was clear for Felipe , and for Smedley .
They both did as told , but did not do it subtly enough to escape sanction .

Massa did what he was told , or , more correctly , made the logical decision , when told the situation .
He didn't like it , and needed to be told three times .
When finally he relented , and did as his employer expected , he and his engineer made it obvious . No matter how he slowed, your average punter would smell the rat.


The toilet to which I referred earlier , I own . I have employees in the restaurant who I could ask to do it always , but I take my turn .
And , there is no complaint .

Recently , I had an employee who wouldn't wash the toilet . Her actions disrupted the whole apple cart , as others had to fill in , and do that part of her job , the most disgusting part .
She doesn't work for me any more .

Well, that saved a pay packet, and despite the loss, the bog still shines, I bet? If your ex employee had any nouse, a claim for either unfair or constructive dismissal would have been options to her, and she is likely to have won.....

[Tazio]

Our Italian friends gave us the basis for a language, whereas we have developed in a country where holding a door for someone requires a thank you. (Sorry something which I noticed on a recent trip to Rome along with the concept of queueing not quite being understood lol) :p

Chill out.. :s mokin:
I'm not the least bit worked up about any of this.
Every culture I've ever known of has an upside that out-weighs it's down side. Viva la difference. I'm old enough to remember when you respected people in my country until they gave you a damn good reason not to.
My how things have changed.
Here is an example:

It was about 12 years ago I lived on a pretty steep windy narrow street in suburban uptown San Diego. I had gotten a steal on a '56 Ford F100 with a custom Callen Camper Shell. Needless to say it was a lot of weight for the inline six but it was a 3 speed on the tree and 1st was just a granny gear. Its positive function was for hauling large loads uphill or pulling tree stumps. I never used it and down shifting into it was a pretty dodgy endeavor.
One day I was rolling down my street in second. I saw a small girl about 6 years old stand in the middle of the street with one hand in the air. It was very close to everything I could do to stop short of her or plough someone’s yard. As I got closer I realized that she was just standing there giving me the finger. I backed up to her and said in a firm but non threatening way:
"What the hell do you think you're doing"? Out from a house flies her mother who proceeded to try to chastise me. She Ejaculated ( :s ailor :) "You can't talk to my daughter that way". I said "she almost got killed" I'm reporting this to the police. As I drove away I heard a couple choice insults and just scratched my head.
And I left the authorities out of it.

[Mia 01]

As I see it flando is a very fast driver when he is the clear no 1 in a team, when not he feels insecure and does a lot of mistakes a bit like MS.

[donKey jote]

It is , indeed , Davey .

But , don't forget that the original intention was to have them for free .

Two "rogue" employees took the initiative to make it obvious , and gain sympathy for the "hard done by" driver , causing the team to be fined and reprimanded .

The "free pass" is what you get when you don't make it obvious .
And , "obvious" seems to mean tone of voice , "sorry" , and a crowd of fans yelling about team orders being banned , despite seeing it , in the same words , many times , even this year .

Heikki knew what his team wanted , and didn't complain , and was lauded for his team thinking . And this , being honourable in a secondary role , is what being the devoted number two should be all about .
That's what Dennis was all gushy about .

Gilles did his time as number two , and nobody seems to mind . And some think it was the disturbance of his own number two passing him that lead him to the distraction that contributed to his demise .

When it's my turn to wash the toilet , I wash the toilet , and I don't complain . I just wash the thing the best way I know how , and perform the best job I can .

Smedley and Massa should be on toilet duty for a long time to make up for this .
Then , the pi$$y faces would fit .

:up:

[donKey jote]

Let me make it clear .

I would have fired Felipe on the spot .
I would have told him to pit and get out of my car .

:up:

[F1boat]

You're like the wind, one never knows which way it blows.

Probably not. I support many teams and drivers and that's why people are confused. Also in the past I have changed my favorite teams and drivers. So let me say something clear.
McLaren did the right thing in that race, in 2008. Lewis needed that points. Heikki was slow and needed to get out of the way. So Ron did the sensible thing. He informed him of the situation, i.e. he ordered him to be a good team player.
This probably costed the only victory Piquet could have won in his career.
One would argue that he didn't deserve it, but on the other hand Lewis was LET by Kovalainen to overtake him and than proceeded to do what he did. All power to him and his team. All power to all his fans who think that this is the right way. I agree with them.
But in my opinion Ferrari also did the right thing, this year and in 1999, when Salo let Irvine to win. This is a championship at stake. At the 2010 race Massa was losing time to Vettel, was not able to get his tyres to work and was threatening a 1-2 result and was costing his teammate points. Points which may be prescious at the end of the season. So he let him win, as he was too informed, like Heikki, about what is going on and what is important for the team.
To coin always has two sides and nothing is black and white, but what Ferrari did is not really different to what McLaren did. The circumstances are different, but the reasoning is the same. One teammate has to be sacrificed for the greater good of the team. For the chances of the team leader.
For Massa, the stakes were higher ofcourse, and for Salo in 1999, they were brutal, he lost his one and only chance. But the order, the message, the information, is the same and you have to be a fanboy to deny it.
Not that there is something wrong to be a fanboy. But when a whole organization like the FIA acts because of fanboys and because of journos from certain country, who turn a blind eye for similar actions of the team from their country, now there is something wrong in my opinion.
All of this is IMO and in no way diminish the respect I feel for the involved teams and their passionate fans.

[F1boat]

Probably my command of English language needs more improvements. But I was a bit perplexed because it always seems that Ferrari are portrayed by the media as the Empire from "Star Wars", while McLaren are like Jedi. In Italian or Spanish media MIGHT be the other way around, but I don't know these languages. So I comment the British media and for me they dictate too much what happens in F1.
In the end all is well, but we don't need scandals for things which are completely normal in F1.

[pallone col bracciale]

Well, that saved a pay packet, and despite the loss, the bog still shines, I bet? If your ex employee had any nouse, a claim for either unfair or constructive dismissal would have been options to her, and she is likely to have won.....

You need to get real legal advice before saying anything else that displays a lack of knowledge.

The only way in which employees can win a case of unfair or constructive dismissal is if they can prove that the correct procedure has not been followed.

Without fail, the only times they can do this is if the management did not follow basic legal procedure.

Failure to carry out a reasonable request is a good enough reason for disciplinary action.

Refusing to clean the toilet when everybody else is willing to do it, and when it needs cleaning, is failing to carry out a reasonable request.

Further more, most manual and service based employment has a three-month period from its initial start date where the employer does not have to follow disciplinary procedure and can let a new employee go without giving specific reasons.

If this was included within the terms and conditions of employment, Mr Bagwan would have been well within the statutes of the law to stop his employment of somebody who did not fit well within the work culture of his organisation

In future, perhaps you should seek legal knowledge from a qualified lawyer and not from the newspapers or pub-based experts?

Any employement tribunal would view the Massa incident as, at worse, a reasonable request from the employer. But, given that there was no actual request, any case brought against the employer would not reach that stage and would not have been given time in a courtroom or in front of a tribunal.

[SGWilko]

You need to get real legal advice before saying anything else that displays a lack of knowledge.

The only way in which employees can win a case of unfair or constructive dismissal is if they can prove that the correct procedure has not been followed.

Without fail, the only times they can do this is if the management did not follow basic legal procedure.

Failure to carry out a reasonable request is a good enough reason for disciplinary action.

Refusing to clean the toilet when everybody else is willing to do it, and when it needs cleaning, is failing to carry out a reasonable request.

Further more, most manual and service based employment has a three-month period from its initial start date where the employer does not have to follow disciplinary procedure and can let a new employee go without giving specific reasons.

If this was included within the terms and conditions of employment, Mr Bagwan would have been well within the statutes of the law to stop his employment of somebody who did not fit well within the work culture of his organisation

In future, perhaps you should seek legal knowledge from a qualified lawyer and not from the newspapers or pub-based experts?

Any employement tribunal would view the Massa incident as, at worse, a reasonable request from the employer. But, given that there was no actual request, any case brought against the employer would not reach that stage and would not have been given time in a courtroom or in front of a tribunal.

Whilst this remains off topic, you will find that a cleaner should be employed to clean, not a waitress. It depends also if the waitress was on a waitress wage, or a cleaners wage.

Then there are cross contamination issues, clothing blah blah blah.

If you are determined, you can have the book thrown at such establishments, and prove, very easily, that you had no choice than to not clean the toilet, or, that in asking you to do so was against your job description.

I just hope the rest of the staff change their clothing after performing their cleaning duties before serving or prepping in the restaurant. :eek:

[Dave B]

You need to get real legal advice before saying anything else that displays a lack of knowledge.

The only way in which employees can win a case of unfair or constructive dismissal is if they can prove that the correct procedure has not been followed.

Without fail, the only times they can do this is if the management did not follow basic legal procedure.

Failure to carry out a reasonable request is a good enough reason for disciplinary action.

Refusing to clean the toilet when everybody else is willing to do it, and when it needs cleaning, is failing to carry out a reasonable request.

Further more, most manual and service based employment has a three-month period from its initial start date where the employer does not have to follow disciplinary procedure and can let a new employee go without giving specific reasons.

If this was included within the terms and conditions of employment, Mr Bagwan would have been well within the statutes of the law to stop his employment of somebody who did not fit well within the work culture of his organisation

In future, perhaps you should seek legal knowledge from a qualified lawyer and not from the newspapers or pub-based experts?

Any employement tribunal would view the Massa incident as, at worse, a reasonable request from the employer. But, given that there was no actual request, any case brought against the employer would not reach that stage and would not have been given time in a courtroom or in front of a tribunal.

We don't know when these events took place, or much detail about the procedures followed. It's also a certainly that they didn't take place under EU law, given who posted them. That notwithstanding, your post (under current EU legislation) is so full of inaccuracies that you'd do well never to employ anybody without taking your own advice and seeking legal advice.

[DexDexter]

He is presently trolling the Autosport forum if you are interested. His angry posting is going down about as well as you can imagine on there. :dozey:

The guy obviously has problems that have nothing to do with being interested in F1 etc.

[Retro Formula 1]

That notwithstanding, your post (under current EU legislation) is so full of inaccuracies that you'd do well never to employ anybody without taking your own advice and seeking legal advice.

After his comments and conclusions regarding the Team Orders fiasco, I would have thought he would have refrained from giving legal advice ever again!! :D

[DexDexter]

@Pallone col Bracciale... Can I just compliment you on your perfect use of English in your recent posts. Since you have joined the forum I have noticed that your use of the language has improved to a point where I would say you can write it better that alot of the English members of this forum including myself. At times you have come across as very Italian or as can be expected from somebody where English is not their first language, but of late you've spoken flawlessly with your grammar absolutely spot on, and even used the 'pub' in your latest post which is a very English term, and I must say I am very impressed.

Have you spent a considerable amount of time in the UK can I ask? I just wanted to compliment you.. :)

Come on, he uses the expression Grazie quite often, doesn't he. Must be Italian then... ;)

Di dove siete, Pallo?

[Tazio]

@Pallone col Bracciale... Can I just compliment you on your perfect use of English in your recent posts. Since you have joined the forum I have noticed that your use of the language has improved to a point where I would say you can write it better that alot of the English members of this forum including myself. At times you have come across as very Italian or as can be expected from somebody where English is not their first language, but of late you've spoken flawlessly with your grammar absolutely spot on, and even used the 'pub' in your latest post which is a very English term, and I must say I am very impressed.

Have you spent a considerable amount of time in the UK can I ask? I just wanted to compliment you.. :) Come on!
Tell us what you really think! ;)
BTW who was this guy?
I guess we will never know as he is still banned :s ailor:


Hail Caesar

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20061029elpepudep_3/XLCO/Ies/Fernando_Alonso_recibe_calor_Oviedo.jpg

[SGWilko]

Hold fire guys, we'll get a 'stop being so disrespectful per favor' message in a minute.

init?

[SGWilko]

The guy obviously has problems.

:up: ;)

[pallone col bracciale]

After his comments and conclusions regarding the Team Orders fiasco, I would have thought he would have refrained from giving legal advice ever again!! :D

I was proved correct.

[SGWilko]

I was proved correct.

Nope.

The FIA, whilst satisfied that the rule breaking did in fact take place, conceded that the burden of proof, given the cunning deception used, was too great to guarantee a conviction, and so left it at that.

The fact that the Stewards indictment remains is the most telling factor, and that Ferrari are not challenging that decision.

[pallone col bracciale]

Nope.

The FIA, whilst satisfied that the rule breaking did in fact take place, conceded that the burden of proof, given the cunning deception used, was too great to guarantee a conviction, and so left it at that.

The fact that the Stewards indictment remains is the most telling factor, and that Ferrari are not challenging that decision.

Ferrari are not challenging it because the FIA backed down. $100,000 is cheaper than legal action.

Capito?

[SGWilko]

Ferrari are not challenging it because the FIA backed down. $100,000 is cheaper than legal action.

Capito?

Ferrari confirmed they would not challenge it before the WMSC met.

[pallone col bracciale]

A man who claimed that Alonso was over-rated trying to be smart?

It is not such a smart thing to do when you have already shown yourself to be beyond foolish.

[ShiftingGears]

Ferrari confirmed they would not challenge it before the WMSC met.

Because doing so would bring the sport into disrepute, and clearly break FIA protocol. And that, considering that they knew the FIA had no evidence to work with, would be much more trouble than it's worth.

[ArrowsFA1]

Ferrari are not challenging it because the FIA backed down.
In what way did the FIA "back down"?

The FIA German GP stewards found Ferrari to be in breach of Article 39.1, which bans team orders, and 151c, which relates to bringing the sport into disrepute. They were fined $50,000 for each offence.

Ferrari did not appeal.

The FIA WMSC upheld the decision of the stewards and
remains convinced that Ferrari did use illegal team orders at the German Grand Prix - but it decided not to punish the team further at its disciplinary hearing on Wednesday because of inconsistencies in the way the rules have been applied in the past. (Link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86508))

Ferrari did not appeal.

In other words the original guilty verdict was rubber stamped by the sports governing body and Ferrari have accepted the FIA's rulings on this matter. Case closed.

[Bagwan]

Whilst this remains off topic, you will find that a cleaner should be employed to clean, not a waitress. It depends also if the waitress was on a waitress wage, or a cleaners wage.

Then there are cross contamination issues, clothing blah blah blah.

If you are determined, you can have the book thrown at such establishments, and prove, very easily, that you had no choice than to not clean the toilet, or, that in asking you to do so was against your job description.

I just hope the rest of the staff change their clothing after performing their cleaning duties before serving or prepping in the restaurant. :eek:

My employees must be certified food handlers to be able to work for me .

In my small establishment , they are fully aware that all aspects of the running of the restaurant are on the job description .

Your final statement is walking a fine line , and I suggest you think about it before you make such an allegation again .
Upon being inspected , which is always without notice , we have never failed to achieve anything less than 100% rating , of which we are very proud .

You can kill a restaurant with such unfounded accusations .

So , experience it yourself , or don't think you have any personal knowledge .

Which brings me back to the topic .

I've met Felipe , and he's a mouse .
I'd fire him in a second for disobeying the first two suggestions .

You see , no matter who you are , if you don't see the bigger picture , you're not ever going to be a good employee for anyone .
If my employee has a good idea , we change to fit .
If I ask them to do something I wouldn't do myself , I am asking too much .
If the company does well , my employee does well .

Everybody is happy that the employee who left , left , by the way .

And , she quit , knowing she didn't fit .
Simply , she had a job she didn't want to do .

Felipe did the job , but grudgingly , and that's no good either . It just brings everyone down .
Don't play like you're trapped in a bad contract when you are happy to cash the cheque .

[SGWilko]

My employees must be certified food handlers to be able to work for me .

Understood, and rightly so. But, if a certified food handler who felt they 'had' to leave your restaurant for not cleaning round the rim, I suspect that, a tribunal case would not work in your favour.

A cleaner in that position may well not have good grounds, but someone trained for food prep is NOT a cleaner.

[Retro Formula 1]

I was proved correct.

I'm sure you will take great joy in choosing a single point in which you have been proved correct by opinion alone.

Only problem is, me ole rub a dub, apples and pears, hows yer father Italian National ( ;) ) that you are fundamentally wrong and were proved so in the WMSC ruling.

Do you really want to state what bit you think you were correct about and allow me to go back through that thread, extract your remarks and counter them with the EVIDENCE at hand or shall we leave this moot point and move forward seeing as you failed to answer my post on "that" thread last time when you were wrong.

:rolleyes:

As for me, I think at this time on a Friday afternoon, I would prefer to have a Brown Bottle or 2, a bit of the old English Ale if you follow my meaning or as I like to put it.... have a life!

[ioan]

I've met Felipe , and he's a mouse .

A mouse who almost died racing yet he came back and continues to race, interesting eh?!

Anyway, he's a very very fast mouse who's not afraid to go racing, and that's what counts.

[SGWilko]

I've met Felipe , and he's a mouse ..

He is a mouse, Sir Maxamillion mouse,

and he comes from a long long long long long long line of......

Bullfighting mouses.

Ole!!!!

[SGWilko]

A mouse who almost died racing yet he came back and continues to race, interesting eh?!

Anyway, he's a very very fast mouse who's not afraid to go racing, and that's what counts.

Speedy Gonzales? :D

[SGWilko]

Oh come on the facts don't suggest that when the ruling wasn't reversed and the fine stayed in place.

:eek:

You naughty, NAUGHTY boy!

:D

[ioan]

Speedy Gonzales? :D

:D ;)

[Tazio]

Come on!
Tell us what you really think! ;)
BTW who was this guy?
I guess we will never know as he is still banned :s ailor:

FWIW Steve2009 was permanantly banned for an attack on StD.
A true Forum Martyr! :s mokin:

[Bagwan]

Understood, and rightly so. But, if a certified food handler who felt they 'had' to leave your restaurant for not cleaning round the rim, I suspect that, a tribunal case would not work in your favour.

A cleaner in that position may well not have good grounds, but someone trained for food prep is NOT a cleaner.

No , clearly not understood .
The job description includes that function .

You know little of the case , yet continue to cast a shadow on a very clear issue .

I wonder now if you are capable of relating the analogy to this Ferrari issue at all , when originally , I was more thinking you were just dodging the matter entirely , by fixating on the toilet talk .


It's a good thing that Felipe did , eventually , decide to act for his team .
He has his seat because of this , and this only .

If he had not had the sentimental factor in his court , he would not have been treated as kindly , I'm quite sure , especially as he cost his team a hundred G$ .

[Bagwan]

A mouse who almost died racing yet he came back and continues to race, interesting eh?!

Anyway, he's a very very fast mouse who's not afraid to go racing, and that's what counts.

He might be fast if he wasn't pouting so much .
That lower lip protruding isn't very aerodynamic .

[airshifter]

No , clearly not understood .
The job description includes that function .

You know little of the case , yet continue to cast a shadow on a very clear issue .

I wonder now if you are capable of relating the analogy to this Ferrari issue at all , when originally , I was more thinking you were just dodging the matter entirely , by fixating on the toilet talk .


It's a good thing that Felipe did , eventually , decide to act for his team .
He has his seat because of this , and this only .

If he had not had the sentimental factor in his court , he would not have been treated as kindly , I'm quite sure , especially as he cost his team a hundred G$ .


Ferrari cost themselves a fine, due to the fact that they manipulated the drivers changing position. After creating a handicap for Massa, they declared Alonso quicker and made it clear that Massa was to yeild the position.

As for your restaurant, fully accepting that your job decription does cover all normal activities such as cleaning, you still aren't making the proper comparison. If you fired an employee for failing to execute a direction that would be in violation of food handling regulations, do you think that would somehow exempt you for being fined for the violation taking place?

[SGWilko]

No , clearly not understood .
The job description includes that function .

You know little of the case , yet continue to cast a shadow on a very clear issue .

I wonder now if you are capable of relating the analogy to this Ferrari issue at all , when originally , I was more thinking you were just dodging the matter entirely , by fixating on the toilet talk .


It's a good thing that Felipe did , eventually , decide to act for his team .
He has his seat because of this , and this only .

If he had not had the sentimental factor in his court , he would not have been treated as kindly , I'm quite sure , especially as he cost his team a hundred G$ .

You brunged up the WC comparison, not me.

And as it was, Alonso was only able to demonstrate his 'superior speed' due to being on a different engine map.

I'd say that's hoodwinking.

Fact is, Massa chose to continue to RACE, I always thought that was what racing drivers were paid to do?

[SGWilko]

If you fired an employee for failing to execute a direction that would be in violation of food handling regulations, do you think that would somehow exempt you for being fined for the violation taking place?

Or, in Baggy's case, the employee left because she didn't fit, because she did not feel cleaning toilets as a trained food handler was appropriate, then a clear case for constructive dismissal is very likely to result in a win for said ex employee.

[Rodster]

So Ferrari now wants Massa to help Fred win the WDC. If I were Massa i'd say no problem mate i've got your back. :)

http://wba.theoffside.com/files/2010/02/Mutley.gif

[ioan]

As for your restaurant, fully accepting that your job decription does cover all normal activities such as cleaning, you still aren't making the proper comparison. If you fired an employee for failing to execute a direction that would be in violation of food handling regulations, do you think that would somehow exempt you for being fined for the violation taking place?

Not only that, he would be also fined for trying to force an employee to perform unlawful activities and for firing the employee because he/she refused to perform an unlawful activity. That would be 3 times braking the rules in one move, at least in Europe, maybe in Canada they don't care if a food handler has to clean up the kitchen and toilets too, however I doubt it.

Ferrari can not fire Massa if he refuses to obey illegal team orders.

Not to mention that Massa's manager is Todt's son, which further complicates the situation.

[Bagwan]

Ferrari cost themselves a fine, due to the fact that they manipulated the drivers changing position. After creating a handicap for Massa, they declared Alonso quicker and made it clear that Massa was to yeild the position.

As for your restaurant, fully accepting that your job decription does cover all normal activities such as cleaning, you still aren't making the proper comparison. If you fired an employee for failing to execute a direction that would be in violation of food handling regulations, do you think that would somehow exempt you for being fined for the violation taking place?

Firstly , shifter , had Smedley and Massa done as directed , nobody would have known specifically that it had been done .
The engine performance level changes came after two reminders that Alonso was faster .

As to my restaurant employee , there was no violation of food handling regs .
They simply didn't want to do the job I asked of them .
It's not difficult to understand that I didn't want to pay someone to not do the job , when others are happy to take thier turn , is it ?

Lots of others would drive that car , if he decides he doesn't want to drive for the team .

[Bagwan]

Or, in Baggy's case, the employee left because she didn't fit, because she did not feel cleaning toilets as a trained food handler was appropriate, then a clear case for constructive dismissal is very likely to result in a win for said ex employee.

That might be the case if she hadn't known it was part of the job .

[Bagwan]

Not only that, he would be also fined for trying to force an employee to perform unlawful activities and for firing the employee because he/she refused to perform an unlawful activity. That would be 3 times braking the rules in one move, at least in Europe, maybe in Canada they don't care if a food handler has to clean up the kitchen and toilets too, however I doubt it.

Ferrari can not fire Massa if he refuses to obey illegal team orders.

Not to mention that Massa's manager is Todt's son, which further complicates the situation.

Part of the 3 day course people take to be qualified as a food handler deals with how to wash one's hands .
Every food handler must be very diligent to prevent contamination .

I asked nothing illegal of my employee .

Similarly , Massa was told he was slower , which is a directive to work for the team .
He made to choice to act for the team , and despite having done it in the most obvious way possible , did it so as not to be fired , for refusing to do as asked .

And , had he done it the "legal" way(ie - not so obviously) , they would not have been fined .

[markabilly]

So Ferrari now wants Massa to help Fred win the WDC. If I were Massa i'd say no problem mate i've got your back. :)

http://wba.theoffside.com/files/2010/02/Mutley.gif


I find that public statement very strange.....if you want your driver to perform and how, you tell him in private. The verbiage was very much like some sort of PR campaign to permit ferrari to replace him without fan backlash...see we told him and he did not. So now may the kube will do it.... It also smacks of a very public broadcast of see here, we are issuing team orders, and DOING IT IN PUBLIC AND IN YOUR FACE

[Rodster]

I find that public statement very strange.....if you want your driver to perform and how, you tell him in private. The verbiage was very much like some sort of PR campaign to permit ferrari to replace him without fan backlash...see we told him and he did not. So now may the kube will do it.... It also smacks of a very public broadcast of see here, we are issuing team orders, and DOING IT IN PUBLIC AND IN YOUR FACE

That's why it would have been in Massa's best interest to give the middle finger to Ferrari and MAKE Fred pass him. If he was questioned as to why he held up Fred I would say they wanted me to let him through. Then an investigation would have ensued which would have shown Ferrari had asked Felipe to slow down his car while letting Fred come back up to full power.

Felipe is the only reason I still follow Ferrari, once he's gone it's anybody but them. :s mokin:

[SGWilko]

The engine performance level changes came after two reminders that Alonso was faster .

Did they though? How long had Massa been on a 'lower' setting that Alonso. And why did Alonso need a boost if he is the faster driver?

[Rodster]

IMO Ferrari has taken on the personality of their Star driver Alonso, i.e. say anything do anything as long as we win.

[ioan]

Similarly , Massa was told he was slower , which is a directive to work for the team .
He made to choice to act for the team , and despite having done it in the most obvious way possible , did it so as not to be fired , for refusing to do as asked .

And , had he done it the "legal" way(ie - not so obviously) , they would not have been fined .

Baggy, that directive is ILLEGAL under the present sporting regulations.

And that's not everything. In order to make it even worse Massa was ordered to run less revs while Alonso was on full revs.

What Ferrari did in the German GP is not defensible as legal under the current regulations.

Remember 2007? and what Alonso did to his team that year? He went to the FIA and claimed the team are disadvantaging him and he was assigned a FIA commissary to check that he got equal opportunities to his team mate. In Germany he was whining on the radio for the team to use team orders when he already had a car advantage handed to him. He's the biggest prick in F1 and Ferrari F1 became his whore, which makes it quite obvious why people stopped supporting them.

[ioan]

Did they though? How long had Massa been on a 'lower' setting that Alonso. And why did Alonso need a boost if he is the faster driver?

Exactly. Mr 'six tenths' is just a hysterical primadonna unless Domenicali does what Briatore did for ages and handicaps his team mates.

[ioan]

That's why it would have been in Massa's best interest to give the middle finger to Ferrari and MAKE Fred pass him. If he was questioned as to why he held up Fred I would say they wanted me to let him through. Then an investigation would have ensued which would have shown Ferrari had asked Felipe to slow down his car while letting Fred come back up to full power.

Felipe is the only reason I still follow Ferrari, once he's gone it's anybody but them. :s mokin:

Same here.

[Rodster]

Exactly. Mr 'six tenths' is just a hysterical primadonna unless Domenicali does what Briatore did for ages and handicaps his team mates.

That's why I hope Flavio gets to run Ferrari because it will complete the circle. Ferrari has become the black hole for unethical individuals. Massa deserves better so does Smedley. I hope they both leave and take their toys to Sauber.

[Bagwan]

Baggy, that directive is ILLEGAL under the present sporting regulations.

And that's not everything. In order to make it even worse Massa was ordered to run less revs while Alonso was on full revs.

What Ferrari did in the German GP is not defensible as legal under the current regulations.

Remember 2007? and what Alonso did to his team that year? He went to the FIA and claimed the team are disadvantaging him and he was assigned a FIA commissary to check that he got equal opportunities to his team mate. In Germany he was whining on the radio for the team to use team orders when he already had a car advantage handed to him. He's the biggest prick in F1 and Ferrari F1 became his whore, which makes it quite obvious why people stopped supporting them.

Heikki was told he was slower .

Same words .

And , he dealt with it with dignity , and was lauded for it .
He worked for the team , and capitulated upon first request .

[Bagwan]

Exactly. Mr 'six tenths' is just a hysterical primadonna unless Domenicali does what Briatore did for ages and handicaps his team mates.

Ioan , my friend , it seems as though you are just now coming to understand the basic strategy that the reds have used for many years .

They are often known to determine very early in the year , the driver they believe to be the one they will ask to go for the title .
Cruel as it may seem , they have decided to back Alonso to win for them , and Felipe , if he is truly an honourable driver , will play the role of the dutiful number two , and help Ferrari to win both titles .

That he was told his team mate was faster in a sentimental race for him is doubly cruel , but , in the end , it is the championship for which they all compete .
To lose the game , having gone the sentimental route would be foolish in the most cruel way .

It's pragmatic , and sometimes it hurts , but it is the Ferrari way .

The mouse had his chance .
Pouty mouse now needs to go , having shown his true colours .

[Bagwan]

That's why it would have been in Massa's best interest to give the middle finger to Ferrari and MAKE Fred pass him. If he was questioned as to why he held up Fred I would say they wanted me to let him through. Then an investigation would have ensued which would have shown Ferrari had asked Felipe to slow down his car while letting Fred come back up to full power.

Felipe is the only reason I still follow Ferrari, once he's gone it's anybody but them. :s mokin:

So , you must actually think that , because team orders are banned , they are never used ?

[ioan]

Ioan , my friend , it seems as though you are just now coming to understand the basic strategy that the reds have used for many years .

Baggy, I get the strategy, however I hate the whining of men.

[donKey jote]

well how about quitting the whining yourself a bit then too ;) :laugh:

[ioan]

well how about quitting the whining yourself a bit then too ;) :laugh:

Looks like you should take up your own advice then. :p

[Rodster]

So , you must actually think that , because team orders are banned , they are never used ?

Oh they're used alright except they blatantly made comments that both drivers were equal when we all knew it was a lie. Fred came to the team with the understanding that HE WAS NUMERO UNO. And yet Ferrari continued the farce that both drivers were equal to win the title. That was not the intent Fred signed with Ferrari. All parties knew he was always #1.

So if that's the case, just man up and tell Felipe we don't think you're good enough to win the title for Ferrari and we know Fred is faster and a much better driver than you. Nope they kept the chirade going that both drivers were equal until Fred nearly ran Massa off the road trying to get into the pits first. First clue Fred was #1 because they excused his actions.

If you are going to use team orders then call a spade a spade and say Fred you're the better driver and Felipe you're not as good, sorry but you're good enough to be a team player. All F1 fans knew that was going to be the case when we saw how Fred behaved when Lewis gave Fred all he could handle and more.

If this was openly said I would have zero problems with what happened in Germany. That's the way Flavio runs his teams, Ferrari insisted it runs it's team with equal status.

[airshifter]

Firstly , shifter , had Smedley and Massa done as directed , nobody would have known specifically that it had been done .
The engine performance level changes came after two reminders that Alonso was faster .

As to my restaurant employee , there was no violation of food handling regs .
They simply didn't want to do the job I asked of them .
It's not difficult to understand that I didn't want to pay someone to not do the job , when others are happy to take thier turn , is it ?

Lots of others would drive that car , if he decides he doesn't want to drive for the team .

You didn't answer my question. If you directed an employee to violate a code or law should they perform that task or refuse to perform it? This is what Ferrari did to Rob and Felipe.

As for your employee, I was simply using your restaurant as an example, not questioning your actions in any way. No offense intended.


I'm sure there are other drivers willing to be #2 drivers and ignore the rules of F1 for a Ferrari paycheck. But there are just as probably teams that would have picked up Felipe had he chose to flip them off when passing the pit wall, and driven the car to a win against the "faster" Alonso.

[Roamy]

You didn't answer my question. If you directed an employee to violate a code or law should they perform that task or refuse to perform it? This is what Ferrari did to Rob and Felipe.

As for your employee, I was simply using your restaurant as an example, not questioning your actions in any way. No offense intended.


I'm sure there are other drivers willing to be #2 drivers and ignore the rules of F1 for a Ferrari paycheck. But there are just as probably teams that would have picked up Felipe had he chose to flip them off when passing the pit wall, and driven the car to a win against the "faster" Alonso.

Hey just a point?? They cheated for how many years??? All the ones the Chin was there. Everybody violated the code. So are we throwing Ferrari out of F1 - Hell no - Ferrari is the anchor of F1 Who would you rather have run Ferrari - Penske or Flavio - just what I thought and we don't need a poll for this question :)

[ioan]

Hey just a point?? They cheated for how many years??? All the ones the Chin was there. Everybody violated the code. So are we throwing Ferrari out of F1 - Hell no - Ferrari is the anchor of F1 Who would you rather have run Ferrari - Penske or Flavio - just what I thought and we don't need a poll for this question :)

They didn't cheat up to Austria 2002, are you ever going to understand what goes on around you, or your hatred does blind you completely.

I like how you keep asking and answering your self-righteous questions, this does prove many things. :D

[pino]

Baggy, that directive is ILLEGAL under the present sporting regulations.

And that's not everything. In order to make it even worse Massa was ordered to run less revs while Alonso was on full revs.

What Ferrari did in the German GP is not defensible as legal under the current regulations.

Remember 2007? and what Alonso did to his team that year? He went to the FIA and claimed the team are disadvantaging him and he was assigned a FIA commissary to check that he got equal opportunities to his team mate. In Germany he was whining on the radio for the team to use team orders when he already had a car advantage handed to him. He's the biggest prick in F1 and Ferrari F1 became his whore, which makes it quite obvious why people stopped supporting them.

So for all the years when Ferrari focused and helped your beloved M. Schumacher and penalised poor R. Barrichello it was ok...now that Ferrari are doing the same choosing Alonso as 1st driver and asking/ordering Massa to help him, it's not ok any more ? :confused: :rolleyes:

The double moral I am reading in this thread disguistes me :down:

[Dave B]

So for all the years when Ferrari focused and helped your beloved M. Schumacher and penalised poor R. Barrichello it was ok...now that Ferrari are doing the same choosing Alonso as 1st driver and asking/ordering Massa to help him, it's not ok any more ? :confused: :rolleyes:

The double moral I am reading in this thread disguistes me :down:
The big difference, though, is that team orders never used to be illegal. Ferrari chose to make Schumacher their number one, drivers like Irvine and Barrichello knew the score in advance. Now Massa, bless him, beleives he has equality when it's plain for the world to see that he does not.

I was no fan when McLaren used them to help Hakkinen at the expense of Coulthard, but at least it was allowable under the rules.

[Bagwan]

Baggy, I get the strategy, however I hate the whining of men.

Then , why do you like Massa ?

[Bagwan]

You didn't answer my question. If you directed an employee to violate a code or law should they perform that task or refuse to perform it? This is what Ferrari did to Rob and Felipe.

As for your employee, I was simply using your restaurant as an example, not questioning your actions in any way. No offense intended.


I'm sure there are other drivers willing to be #2 drivers and ignore the rules of F1 for a Ferrari paycheck. But there are just as probably teams that would have picked up Felipe had he chose to flip them off when passing the pit wall, and driven the car to a win against the "faster" Alonso.

Had they done exactly as suggested , they would not have been breaking any rule .
The words were as directed , but delivered in a way that brought suspicion .

Such is the stupidity of the rule .
They never said "move over and let him pass" .

Of course I wouldn't think of asking an employee to break the law , but this was an example of two employees that did when directed to do otherwise .

[Valve Bounce]

Had they done exactly as suggested , they would not have been breaking any rule .
The words were as directed , but delivered in a way that brought suspicion .

Such is the stupidity of the rule .
They never said "move over and let him pass" .

Of course I wouldn't think of asking an employee to break the law , but this was an example of two employees that did when directed to do otherwise .

I don't think they were directed to do otherwise. It was clear what they were directed to do without a specific order.

[Bagwan]

The big difference, though, is that team orders never used to be illegal. Ferrari chose to make Schumacher their number one, drivers like Irvine and Barrichello knew the score in advance. Now Massa, bless him, beleives he has equality when it's plain for the world to see that he does not.

I was no fan when McLaren used them to help Hakkinen at the expense of Coulthard, but at least it was allowable under the rules.

The silly part , though , Dave , is that it is still alowable under the rules if it is done correctly .
Only when rogue employees do the "poor me" dance does it get penalized .

[Rodster]

The silly part , though , Dave , is that it is still alowable under the rules if it is done correctly .
Only when rogue employees do the "poor me" dance does it get penalized .

Exactly, because said employee was told he was an equal to his co-worker when he figured out he was lied to. When the light bulb comes on is usually when employees go from happy campers to pissed off. ;)

Again if I were Massa I would have shot Ferrari the bird and made Fred pass me and would have made it difficult at that even with a handicapped car. I would have left the team with a sense of pride knowing I was as good as Fred.

Fred's mantra, is he likes a teammate who pushes him to go faster but never to take a win away from him even if it means telling his team to tell his teammate to back off or let him through.

[Bagwan]

I don't think they were directed to do otherwise. It was clear what they were directed to do without a specific order.

Had Smedley delivered the message calmly , and without the tone he used , which suggested he was under duress , they would not have broken any rule .
Had Massa done as suggested , when first suggested , they would not have broken any rule .
As they said when first grilled , Felipe had made the decision .

That was the decision they had wanted when they made the suggestion the first time . That is the "otherwise" to which I refer .

[SGWilko]

Had Smedley delivered the message calmly , and without the tone he used , which suggested he was under duress , they would not have broken any rule .
Had Massa done as suggested , when first suggested , they would not have broken any rule .
As they said when first grilled , Felipe had made the decision .

That was the decision they had wanted when they made the suggestion the first time . That is the "otherwise" to which I refer .

So, what you mean is;

Had Massa broken the rule on first asking, it'd be all fine and dandy?

What was Smeldley's tone on the radio transmissions we did not hear?

You have to remember that Alonso's superior speed was engineered by the team.........

[Rodster]

You have to remember that Alonso's superior speed was engineered by the team.........

Geez, you had to go ahead and bring that up again, tsk tsk. :s mokin:

[SGWilko]

Geez, you had to go ahead and bring that up again, tsk tsk. :s mokin:

Well, had they not broke the rules, we'd never get to hear about these behind the scenes shenanigans.

[Rodster]

Well, had they not broke the rules, we'd never get to hear about these behind the scenes shenanigans.

QFT, the whole thing is a farce Fred included. That's why i'll say it again bring in Flavio so at least we all know where the drivers stand with respect to their team, i.e. Alonso #1 and anybody else #2. :s mokin:

[SGWilko]

QFT, the whole thing is a farce Fred included. That's why i'll say it again bring in Flavio so at least we all know where the drivers stand with respect to their team, i.e. Alonso #1 and anybody else #2. :s mokin:

What I am now convinced of, is that there was a lot of behind the scenes shenanigans orchestrated by Alonso during his short stay at McLaren.

[Rodster]

What I am now convinced of, is that there was a lot of behind the scenes shenanigans orchestrated by Alonso during his short stay at McLaren.

You don't need to go any further than Monaco 2007. Remember Lewis was leading Fred and that abruptly changed and Fred took the win. Remember the press briefing where Lewis sort of looked like Felipe after the Germany race. And Fred said he told the team to tell Lewis "let me through". And Lewis had the look like he was about to kill somebody. Another example was Indy same year and Fred was so pissed at Lewis leading the race which he won btw that Fred in anger drove his car towards the pit wall because Lewis wouldn't hand over the lead.

Look I don't question the skill of Alonso as a driver. He ranks as one of the most skill on the grid and has a killer instinct to go with it. My problem like I mentioned earlier is he ONLY wants a teammate as a benchmark to make him go faster. If that teammate takes wins away from him like Lewis (Rookie) did or Felipe, he feels threatened. If he's as good as everyone makes him out to be then you shouldn't need anyone's help to win the race on your own.

Now wrt Ferrari, I truly believe that between 2007-2009 THERE WAS EQUAL STATUS at Ferrari because Kimi didn't care about who was #1 or #2 and Felipe almost won it in 2008.

[markabilly]

Given that press release, I think Massa's stay at Ferrari will not be much longer, and if he lines up another competitive drive before the end of the season, then we may see Massa not so willing to be in the role of move over, red rover

[Rodster]

Given that press release, I think Massa's stay at Ferrari will not be much longer, and if he lines up another competitive drive before the end of the season, then we may see Massa not so willing to be in the role of move over, red rover

Doesn't surprise me at all which is why Massa would have been happier with himself if he waved the middle finger as he drove by the pit wall and took home the win. As I said before Ferrari has taken on the personality of Alonso.

I don't expect Ferrari to make a move or hint about a Massa move until the season is over just for that reason alone.

[Bagwan]

So, what you mean is;

Had Massa broken the rule on first asking, it'd be all fine and dandy?

What was Smeldley's tone on the radio transmissions we did not hear?

You have to remember that Alonso's superior speed was engineered by the team.........

No , he only got all pi$$y about it when he had it suggested to him the third time .
That is obviously why we didn't get to hear the first transmissions . They weren't as newsy .
That's why Smedley asked him to confirm he understood the message . He had been asked twice before .

And , no , he wasn't asked to move over . That would be breaking the rules .
He was told , as is required here in stupid rule land , that his team mate was faster .

[Bagwan]

Given that press release, I think Massa's stay at Ferrari will not be much longer, and if he lines up another competitive drive before the end of the season, then we may see Massa not so willing to be in the role of move over, red rover

The role of team player is important to any boss .

His worth when he leaves Ferrari will be great , as any look in for other teams pays off in at least the fine detail of methods used directly relating to the driver , if not other details of difference around the car as well .

If he leaves under a cloud , he would also be highly motivated to beat them , which is also an asset .

But , to defy one's employer , and not "move over , red rover" , when it is suggested they work for a team , is a poor reputation to have .

[Rodster]

When you have drivers who are happy to lie in order to gain a position, drivers who try to blackmail a team when they are not being given number one status, or drivers who are happy to run others off the road for a WDC, I doubt dragging out the time to obey a team order is going to be much of a dent in a drivers CV. If the driver is considered good or valuable enough by a team they will employ him what ever IMO. Drivers have done alot worse in the past, and apart from the forums still going over the same old waffle, the drivers themselves seem to have moved on from the whole saga.

This latest incident (over two moths ago) has been analysed to death. Its either strengthened peoples opinions about their favourite driver or team, or done totally the opposite.

"I've been doing this for 12 years now, so please bear with me a moment while I plaster on a fake smile and plow through this sh!t one more time..." Bill Hicks. :)

Don't be so harsh. At least Ferrari didn't ask Felipe to crash his car in order for Fred to win the race. Now we all know it's against the rules but I"M SURE other teams have used this tactic before.

Wait a minute ! Wasn't it last used where Fred came from? Never mind, that never happened, carry on. :s mokin:

[mstillhere]

What I am now convinced of, is that there was a lot of behind the scenes shenanigans orchestrated by Alonso during his short stay at McLaren.

WOW!! And I am here thinking that Alonso was just a driver hired by McLaren. I had no idea he instead took over McLaren as soon as he got to Ron's office. Took his decision power away, plotted against LH, huis mechanics and engineers, and took all the Ferrari projects. Then, he had them installed on the "red-silver arrows" and still behind everyone back. And in all this time Ron & Co. were clueless of Alonso's actions. (It's true. They can be so naive at times. Especially Ron.

And then, when the whole team got caught cheating and lying, Ron made sure to apologize about the whole thing making sure Alonso would stay out of the whole story and then happily paid the huge fine).

Now, let me tell you an other little story. This time this story is based on facts, not on maliciouness. This story is about his "holyness" LH caught lying and cheating several times and barely punished for his proven misdeeds. To date no one has accused Alonso with prove at hand that he has been involved in anything illegal. Not even a ticket from the police in Australia. Not once. And these are facts. Now you can continue bad mouthing anyone you want to just for the .....fun of it. :) You are too much man :) :)

PS I know you think that FA must also be behind Piquet attempt murder. But so far........the darnest thing....not a prove. How disappointing that must be.

[airshifter]

Had Massa done as suggested , when first suggested , they would not have broken any rule .


Any driver on track knows that they can yield a position to any other driver on track at any time. You can call it what you want, but the team even suggesting that Felipe move over to allow Alonso to pass is putting pressure on him and suggesting team orders.

Felipe already knew he could move if he was under pressure. Strange that the real pressure didn't exist until Ferrari instructed drivers to change settings, then stated Felipe was slower.

[mstillhere]

Any driver on track knows that they can yield a position to any other driver on track at any time. You can call it what you want, but the team even suggesting that Felipe move over to allow Alonso to pass is putting pressure on him and suggesting team orders.

Felipe already knew he could move if he was under pressure. Strange that the real pressure didn't exist until Ferrari instructed drivers to change settings, then stated Felipe was slower.

As the FIA as stated, this issue is a "non issue" really. And I don't understand why getting so upset ove Ferrari's "wrongdoing" and not discussing even bigger and important issues such as RB flexi wings. This subject got momentum when it looked like Ferrari could have been involved somehow with "cheating". But as soon as people saw that it was actually RB, and McLaren I might add, at fault rather than Ferrari, then the whole thing lost all that attention. So rather than discussing what recently LH questioned, which is "HAS RB CHEATED ALL THE WAY THROUGH THIS CHAMPIONSHIP", the so called F1 fans are trying to drag Ferrari in to the mud talking about issues that have been already resolved and found Ferrari not at fault or maybe at fault.......but as much as everyone else.

PS This post is not directed specifically to you, Airshifter.

[Roamy]

Doesn't surprise me at all which is why Massa would have been happier with himself if he waved the middle finger as he drove by the pit wall and took home the win. As I said before Ferrari has taken on the personality of Alonso.

I don't expect Ferrari to make a move or hint about a Massa move until the season is over just for that reason alone.

You obviously assume that Alonso could not have passed him. I wouldn't bet on that. And then there is the Monaco incident where Massa wouldn't get out of the way of JV so he got punted off the road. Massa is clearly not a team player and I would dump him. I am spending 300 million and paying a driver millions and I am going to have a driver telling me what they will do? I think not. The spring must have caused some underlying damage!

[pino]

I am spending 300 million and paying a driver millions and I am going to have a driver telling me what they will do? I think not. The spring must have caused some underlying damage!

Excactly, here most are forgetting (or wants to forget) that when a driver signs for Ferrari, he's told that the Team is above everything and everyone must work for the same target : Ferrari's success. That's been Ferrari strategy for years and years and if a driver don't accept that then Ferrari isn't the Team to sign for. As for Massa, if he leaves he might only find a seat at Toro Rosso, Williams or Force India, he knows that, and that's why he will stay at Ferrari no matter what.

[Big Ben]

You don't need to go any further than Monaco 2007. Remember Lewis was leading Fred and that abruptly changed and Fred took the win. Remember the press briefing where Lewis sort of looked like Felipe after the Germany race. And Fred said he told the team to tell Lewis "let me through". And Lewis had the look like he was about to kill somebody. Another example was Indy same year and Fred was so pissed at Lewis leading the race which he won btw that Fred in anger drove his car towards the pit wall because Lewis wouldn't hand over the lead.


:laugh: alternative history? :laugh: if you insist to come uninvited to a place where you are not welcome just to annoy people you should at least have the decency not to make up facts. at Monaco FA dominated all free practice sessions but one, qualified first and won the race (i might be wrong but I think it was after leading the whole race) and posted the fastest lap of the race... the conspiracy happened only in Hamilton's head. The only thing that happened was that the team told the drivers not to race each other and secure the 1-2... only the slow witted Hamilton thought he could pass Alonso in an equal car at Monaco... the last couple of races show that brain didn't catch much speedr yet and that McLarn were wise not to let jeopardize the whole race... if they had stayed that wise the whole year they would have won the wdc easily

[Big Ben]

Using data obtained through theft is pretty serious and it may be a shock to you, but it was proven that he had this data, for which he stood on the witness stand and admitted it!. FACT. Ron Dennis having knowledge of his teams deceit is not fact, yet you are happy to pass it off as just that to support your incredibly biased bashing, Pathetic. Its on record my friend of what Fernando's involvement in that sorry sag but there is no proof to support Ron's involvement at all.. :rolleyes:

What makes me laugh is Ferrari fans still having a cheap dig about Spygate, yet are happy to support one of the main suspects in that sorry case who now happens to be Ferrari's number one driver. Wake up :D

Alonso had no choice. McLaren tried to show the data to Lewis but the regs changed before he got passed the first 2 pages.

[Tazio]

Excactly, here most are forgetting (or wants to forget) that when a driver signs for Ferrari, he's told that the Team is above everything and everyone must work for the same target : Ferrari's success. That's been Ferrari strategy for years and years and if a driver don't accept that then Ferrari isn't the Team to sign for. As for Massa, if he leaves he might only find a seat at Toro Rosso, Williams or Force India, he knows that, and that's why he will stay at Ferrari no matter what.

Good post Pino :up:
However I'm afraid you are howling in the wilderness! :dozey:

[pino]

Good post Pino :up:
However I'm afraid you are howling in the wilderness! :dozey:


In Italy we say : Hope is the last thing which dies ;)

[Bagwan]

Excactly, here most are forgetting (or wants to forget) that when a driver signs for Ferrari, he's told that the Team is above everything and everyone must work for the same target : Ferrari's success. That's been Ferrari strategy for years and years and if a driver don't accept that then Ferrari isn't the Team to sign for. As for Massa, if he leaves he might only find a seat at Toro Rosso, Williams or Force India, he knows that, and that's why he will stay at Ferrari no matter what.

Same goes for my "no toilet" employee .

She can go work at McDonalds .

[Retro Formula 1]

FFS

McLaren had Ferrari data

Alonso was implicated and tried to Blackmail Ron Dennis

Lewis told a Porky Pie at Melbourne

Ferrari ordered Massa to let Alonso past

Bagwan regrets bringing his Restaurant into the discussion

Ferrari are no better or worse these days than any other team as far as ethics go and will get away with whatever they can the same as they, and everyone else would. Just so happens they're banged to rights on the ole team orders fiasco but that's been done to death now.

Lets move on?

[SGWilko]

FFS

McLaren had Ferrari data

Alonso was implicated and tried to Blackmail Ron Dennis

Lewis told a Porky Pie at Melbourne

Ferrari ordered Massa to let Alonso past

Bagwan regrets bringing his Restaurant into the discussion

Ferrari are no better or worse these days than any other team as far as ethics go and will get away with whatever they can the same as they, and everyone else would. Just so happens they're banged to rights on the ole team orders fiasco but that's been done to death now.

Lets move on?

Just one more thing - Massa cleans the loo on every third Wednesday, capiche?

[pino]

Just one more thing - Massa cleans the loo on every third Wednesday, capiche?

Massa knews that before signing for Ferrari, capische ? ;)

[Bagwan]

FFS

McLaren had Ferrari data

Alonso was implicated and tried to Blackmail Ron Dennis

Lewis told a Porky Pie at Melbourne

Ferrari ordered Massa to let Alonso past

Bagwan regrets bringing his Restaurant into the discussion

Ferrari are no better or worse these days than any other team as far as ethics go and will get away with whatever they can the same as they, and everyone else would. Just so happens they're banged to rights on the ole team orders fiasco but that's been done to death now.

Lets move on?

I'd say , actually , that it is the toilet that i regret .
It got the discussion off topic .

It is the disruption within the team which is the most regrettable issue in any situation where one or more people are seen to be acting for only self-interest .

I want to say also , that now that the disruptive employee is gone , we have a great team .
We have people who think on thier feet , and look at the big picture , not just the toilet .


If they change the rules and allow team orders , we needn't mention toilets ever again .
Unless , of course , there is controversy over the change to low flow-dual flush units , but that come under hydrodynamics , not aerodynamics , so it should be ok . I'll have to check with the authorities .

[Rodster]

You obviously assume that Alonso could not have passed him. I wouldn't bet on that.

He should have passed him because Felipe's car was dialed back and Fred's was not. It's like a Mini Cooper trying to hold back a BMW M5. If Fred is sooo much better than Felipe then then was no reason for the chirade, making the #2 driver's car slower to allow the team leaders car to go faster. IOW Fred's skillz should have overcome the slower pace of his teammate.

But he couldn't and so team orders were imposed to allow the great one the victory. :s mokin:

[SGWilko]

But he couldn't and so team orders were imposed to allow the great one the victory. :s mokin:

And of course, we have seen little snippets of what happens when 'his lordship' does not get his own way........

[F1boat]

He should have passed him because Felipe's car was dialed back and Fred's was not. It's like a Mini Cooper trying to hold back a BMW M5. If Fred is sooo much better than Felipe then then was no reason for the chirade, making the #2 driver's car slower to allow the team leaders car to go faster. IOW Fred's skillz should have overcome the slower pace of his teammate.

But he couldn't and so team orders were imposed to allow the great one the victory. :s mokin:

Ferrari were sensible not to suffer a dangerous situation like Red Bull in Turkey. All this whining is so stupid.

[jens]

The big difference, though, is that team orders never used to be illegal. Ferrari chose to make Schumacher their number one, drivers like Irvine and Barrichello knew the score in advance. Now Massa, bless him, beleives he has equality when it's plain for the world to see that he does not.


Barrichello has often claimed that it wasn't written in his contract that he was a #2 and hence he felt kinda reluctant, when he was asked to move over in the interest of the championship. Like Massa now.

It was a different story with Irvine - he had a clear contract with #2 written in it and was helping Schumacher as much as possible with great pleasure, having little ambitions by himself. Back in the day it looked like he was taking being a No.2 driver and as a result creating headaches to rival team drivers as part of fun and his life motto. :p :

[steveaki13]

I remember Rubens saying when he first went to Ferrari:

" I am not the number 2 driver, just 1B" :dozey:

[mstillhere]

Interesting I had no idea Lewis had been accused and caught more than on one occasion. Please could you list the other occasions when Lewis had been caught cheating and not punished. :confused:

Hmmm. *Scratches chin*

I did not write LH was not punished. I wrote "barely punished".


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2454154.ece
Using data obtained through theft is pretty serious and it may be a shock to you, but it was proven that he had this data, for which he stood on the witness stand and admitted it!. FACT. Ron Dennis having knowledge of his teams deceit is not fact, yet you are happy to pass it off as just that to support your incredibly biased bashing, Pathetic. Its on record my friend of what Fernando's involvement in that sorry sag but there is no proof to support Ron's involvement at all.. :rolleyes:

Everyone was implicated at McLaren. But it does not mean guilty. That's why he nor LH did not get punished


What makes me laugh is Ferrari fans still having a cheap dig about Spygate, yet are happy to support one of the main suspects in that sorry case who now happens to be Ferrari's number one driver. Wake up :D

What makes me laugh instead is having to constantly read inaccurate and false accusations against Ferrari just for the fun of it and as for the cheap digs I don't see why they should be only one sided.

[Garry Walker]

You obviously assume that Alonso could not have passed him. I wouldn't bet on that.

:rotflmao:
Alonso needed to have Massa lower his cars RPMs to even be as quick as Felipe, he would never have overtaken him

[ArrowsFA1]

Now Massa, bless him, beleives he has equality when it's plain for the world to see that he does not.
That's where I have a great deal of sympathy for Massa. He is very much a Ferrari man but there was a time not so long ago when he was seen as a match for Schumacher and was so very nearly a WDC winner. He effectively saw off Raikkonen and, until his accident, Ferrari's was his to lead into 2010.

Now things look very different for Felipe. Perhaps his accident has had an effect and he's not quite the driver he once was, or perhaps he's just had one of those seasons where things haven't gone his way and he'll be back in 2011.

Sadly I think that's unlikely. Ferrari is now firmly in the grip of Alonso who appears to be a driver who needs and expects a team to be in his corner at all times. He had that at Renault with Briatore, but he was misguided when he went to McLaren thinking he would have that same status. Now he's #1 again. Good luck to him. Demanding that kind of position and getting it is something most drivers would probably want, whether they'd admit it or not. Was it Gerhard Berger who said the ideal team mate was someone slower than you?!!

Now Felipe's choice seems to be to stay at Ferrari in a supporting role, or move elsewhere. The rumour about him going to Sauber has proved to be unfounded, and it's hard to see what other options he may have.

[Big Ben]

OK, could you list the other ocassions where he was caught cheating and barely punished apart from the one we all know about?

Alonso and Pedro DLR were more guilty than most as they were actively discussing the data through emails and Alonso was very keen to know weight distributions, and if the information was reliable. LH was found not guilty because it was comfirmed that he had no knowledge of the data's existance. Its also unclear whether Ron had any idea his team were using stolen data and the only sources that say he did are forums. lol

Alonso was a major suspect in Spygate, he also used what he aquired, so lets please draw a line under it, because its very hypocritical to continue bashing Mclaren for this sorry saga and then openly turn a blind eye to someone who now happens to drive for one's favourite team.

Do you even read what you write? I suspected you of some objectivity but I was dead wrong.

[Retro Formula 1]

That's where I have a great deal of sympathy for Massa. He is very much a Ferrari man but there was a time not so long ago when he was seen as a match for Schumacher and was so very nearly a WDC winner. He effectively saw off Raikkonen and, until his accident, Ferrari's was his to lead into 2010.

Now things look very different for Felipe. Perhaps his accident has had an effect and he's not quite the driver he once was, or perhaps he's just had one of those seasons where things haven't gone his way and he'll be back in 2011.

Sadly I think that's unlikely. Ferrari is now firmly in the grip of Alonso who appears to be a driver who needs and expects a team to be in his corner at all times. He had that at Renault with Briatore, but he was misguided when he went to McLaren thinking he would have that same status. Now he's #1 again. Good luck to him. Demanding that kind of position and getting it is something most drivers would probably want, whether they'd admit it or not. Was it Gerhard Berger who said the ideal team mate was someone slower than you?!!

Now Felipe's choice seems to be to stay at Ferrari in a supporting role, or move elsewhere. The rumour about him going to Sauber has proved to be unfounded, and it's hard to see what other options he may have.

Sadly I think you're correct.

Massa is a fine driver. He is also a proud and spirited. He is driving for the perfect team with one small problem......

He must feel like he's stuck in a nightmare

[DexDexter]

Sadly I think you're correct.

Massa is a fine driver. He is also a proud and spirited. He is driving for the perfect team with one small problem......

He must feel like he's stuck in a nightmare

I knew this was coming and interestingly, I think the one man Massa misses is Kimi. He probably didn't realise at the time how fair a team mate Kimi was, never demanding special treatment, even as the defending WDC. A good example of that was France 2008, Kimi had a broken exhaust and was slower than Felipe who was allowed to pass him and they finished one two. I don't think that would be allowed to happen now, Massa would just follow his leader.

Anyway, Ferrari's current strategy seems to be working so there is nothing Felipe can do about it except walk away...

[Tazio]

That's where I have a great deal of sympathy for Massa. He is very much a Ferrari man but there was a time not so long ago when he was seen as a match for Schumacher and was so very nearly a WDC winner. He effectively saw off Raikkonen and, until his accident, Ferrari's was his to lead into 2010.

Now things look very different for Felipe. Perhaps his accident has had an effect and he's not quite the driver he once was, or perhaps he's just had one of those seasons where things haven't gone his way and he'll be back in 2011.

Sadly I think that's unlikely. Ferrari is now firmly in the grip of Alonso who appears to be a driver who needs and expects a team to be in his corner at all times. He had that at Renault with Briatore, but he was misguided when he went to McLaren thinking he would have that same status. Now he's #1 again. Good luck to him. Demanding that kind of position and getting it is something most drivers would probably want, whether they'd admit it or not. Was it Gerhard Berger who said the ideal team mate was someone slower than you?!!

Now Felipe's choice seems to be to stay at Ferrari in a supporting role, or move elsewhere. The rumour about him going to Sauber has proved to be unfounded, and it's hard to see what other options he may have.

Be it as it may, Fred proved that he can win in the second fastest car without a wingman. Felipe needs to find some speed. That excuse about the injury is lame. I had an injury playing sports that was very similar to Felipe’s only worse. You either get over it or you don't. He is over it. He is just not on the same level as Fred. He needs to start picking up some points toward the WCC, which I'm sure he will.

[SGWilko]

Be it as it may, Fred proved that he can win in the second fastest car without a wingman. Felipe needs to find some speed. That excuse about the injury is lame. I had an injury playing sports that was very similar to Felipe’s only worse. You either get over it or you don't. He is over it. He is just not on the same level as Fred. He needs to start picking up some points toward the WCC, which I'm sure he will.

Whats worse than surgery that involves removing sections of your scalp?

[Tazio]

Whats worse than surgery that involves removing sections of your scalp?Being struck under the left eye by a 90mph fastball that broke my cheekbone from the orbit of my eye all the way to my front teeth giving me double vision for 6 months.
Oh yes and breaking my nose, which the doctors didn't realize for several days as in the early 1970's MRI's were not commonly used and my face was swollen beyond recognition. Two plastic surgeries and permanent nerve damage. What was really special was being conscious while the physician shoved a pair of forceps into my nose and listening to the cartilage crack and crunch as it was being reset.
They were very similar to these:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRsUTiDtRGa6LF6ol8iZ0l_eZuPPArxR qHZZukXYw9oNLLBGu8

[SGWilko]

Being struck under the right eye by a 90mph fastball that broke my cheekbone from the orbit of my eye all the way to my front teeth giving me double vision for 6 months.
Oh yes and breaking my nose, which the doctors didn't realize for several days as in the early 1970's MRI's were not commonly used and my face was swollen beyond recognition. Two plastic surgeries and permanent nerve damage. What was really special was being conscious while the physician shoved a pair of forceps into my nose and listening to the cartilage crack and crunch as it was being reset.

Yikes, that's not good. :eek:

[Tazio]

Yikes, that's not good. :eek:

BTW It is the left :crazy: and I didn't get over it for many years ;)

[DexDexter]

Thats why I find it confusing when people say "this is the way its always been at Ferrari". We had 3 season's where the drivers seemed to be allowed to challenge each other to a point in the season until only one was mathematically capable of winning the championship. Massa supported Kimi in the closing stages of 2007, and Kimi repaid the favour in 2008. I don't remember a driver being told to move over so early in a season, and the French GP example you give highlights that fact.

Theres nothing wrong with choosing one driver so early on, but IMO it limits the chances of winning the WDC when that support role is not going according to plan. Red Bull and Mclaren openly allow teammates to compete to the last and that maybe why we have seen such exciting team battles so far this season. Ferrari playing the team game is why F1 experienced such a drop in popularity at the beginning of the decade, although I'm sure it was exciting for the supporters who watched their driver win nearly every weekend. Winning isn't the issue though, and on a bright side its nice to see a team like Ferrari doing it differently. At least if Fernando is out of the hunt in future season's we'll know a Ferrari is definately out of the title chase. :)

I don't understand why the drivers' title in itself is so important that one artificially has to alter race results. Isn't it enough if Ferraris (or other teams, it's not only Ferrari) are winning races all the time, who cares if they lose the drivers' championship or not. They're all in the sport for marketing reasons and team orders create negative publicity.

[Tazio]

OK as for Ferrari strategy this weekend.
I'm wondering if Fred is really going to go balls out in a wet quali. If he stays on the edge he stands a reasonable chance of getting the poll.
If he bins it or finnishes down the grid he gets his new engine.

(That's considering if the cheats haven't already changed out Felipe's with one of his) :)

:s ailor: Thoughts?

[mstillhere]

I'm open to objectivity, and as far as I am aware everything in my post regarding Spygate was substantially backed up.

1. There is no proof to suggest Ron knew members of his team were engaging in criminal activity, and the fact he informed the FIA backs this up.
2. There is no proof to suggest LH had read the 780 page document as you suggested, and being a rookie I doubt he would understand the technical contect anyway. He was also cleared at the trial.
3. Alonso was proven to have used that data in his possession, and there is nothing to suggest he was asked to use it against his will. Quite the opposite when the email transcripts show him asking questions on the reliability of the source.

Thats 3 factual points which were touched on earlier and no longer relevant in this context. Fernando is still as guilty as any member of the Mclaren team to this day, and thats end of story. Fernando is taking on a new challenge and Mclaren and himself should be allowed to continue without this tripe being constantly dragged up IMO. :)

I am sure you are referring to SGWilko since he is the one who first posted this:
"What I am now convinced of, is that there was a lot of behind the scenes shenanigans orchestrated by Alonso during his short stay at McLaren."

As far as I am concerned I have moved on. However there are still people (see above) who are unwilling to and lose their sleep over it. These people revisit any issue they can think, no matter how old the issue is for the only purpose to continue with the Ferrari bashing. If you dont like the Ferrari fans defend teh facts then let's talk about something that relates more with the present champioship. McLaren, RD and LH are not saints. Everyone knows that.

[mstillhere]

Thats why I find it confusing when people say "this is the way its always been at Ferrari". We had 3 season's where the drivers seemed to be allowed to challenge each other to a point in the season until only one was mathematically capable of winning the championship. Massa supported Kimi in the closing stages of 2007, and Kimi repaid the favour in 2008. I don't remember a driver being told to move over so early in a season, and the French GP example you give highlights that fact.

Theres nothing wrong with choosing one driver so early on, but IMO it limits the chances of winning the WDC when that support role is not going according to plan. Red Bull and Mclaren openly allow teammates to compete to the last and that maybe why we have seen such exciting team battles so far this season. Ferrari playing the team game is why F1 experienced such a drop in popularity at the beginning of the decade, although I'm sure it was exciting for the supporters who watched their driver win nearly every weekend. Winning isn't the issue though, and on a bright side its nice to see a team like Ferrari doing it differently. At least if Fernando is out of the hunt in future season's we'll know a Ferrari is definately out of the title chase. :)

I don't know if Webber agrees with you. If I recall correctly he thought a couple races ago otherwise. As McLaren and LH are concerned I have my reserves about about JB having a fair shot at the championship.

[Tazio]

:s ailor: Oh Joy !!
The video edit from Singapore is now on Formula 1.com

http://www.formula1.com/video/race_edits.html

[gloomyDAY]

"Felipe is and will always stay a number one driver for Ferrari," di Montezemolo told the official Ferrari website.

Monte talking rubbish once again.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87218

Also, some nonsense of Alonso and Massa fighting equally next year.

[mstillhere]

"Felipe is and will always stay a number one driver for Ferrari," di Montezemolo told the official Ferrari website.

Monte talking rubbish once again.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87218

Also, some nonsense of Alonso and Massa fighting equally next year.

I would agree with you. Once Ferrari finds the winning horse, they put all their money on him. I am puzzled as someone raised this point earlier on by what happened in Ferrari when Kimi was there. It's not part of their racing philosophy to have two running horses in their team. They usually start the championship whith one first pilot, as shallow as it may be. Fair or not to the other pilot their strategy has paid over the years very well. They are not in the business to make pilots famous. These people get hired to work for Ferrari. They get paid really well but in the end they have to make Ferrari the winner. End of the story. If they don't like it they can always go racing somewhere else.

[Firstgear]

They are not in the business to make pilots famous. These people get hired to work for Ferrari. They get paid really well but in the end they have to make Ferrari the winner. End of the story. If they don't like it they can always go racing somewhere else.

mstillhere, this seems to be a contradiction. If "making Ferrari the winner" is the objective, then WCC should be the only goal. Maximizing constructors points doesn't require a certain pilot to always be ahead of the other. All it requires is that they both get as close to the front as possible. Which one is in front, relative to the other, bears no significance.

The only time you'd be concerned about consistently placing one pilot above the other is if your objective is the WDC. Doing this strives to "make the pilot famous".

So...having a #1 early on, means you're going for the WDC.
Treating 'em equal means WCC is more important.

[Tazio]

mstillhere, this seems to be a contradiction. If "making Ferrari the winner" is the objective, then WCC should be the only goal. Maximizing constructors points doesn't require a certain pilot to always be ahead of the other. All it requires is that they both get as close to the front as possible. Which one is in front, relative to the other, bears no significance.

The only time you'd be concerned about consistently placing one pilot above the other is if your objective is the WDC. Doing this strives to "make the pilot famous".

So...having a #1 early on, means you're going for the WDC.
Treating 'em equal means WCC is more important.

I think the distinction is that Ferrari believe they can do both. Judging by recent history they have good reason to believe this. I think that is what all the top teams want with their current driver line-ups. I just don't think they expected their number 2's to over achieve, or is it their number ones to under-achieve? In Fred Ferrari believe they have "The One" If Massa would have been beaten by Kimi all the seasons he would be more accepting of his place.
Fred is a god-send to Ferrari. He is a hard working Southern European that is also a speaker of the native language as opposed to Kimi (not Massa)
His monetary value to them is huge.
I understand why many on this forum don't like the arrangement. But I think it is perfect. Remember it took Mike and RB, JT, and Co. a couple years to win it all. This is the path Ferrari is trying to take now! JMHO

It's their team. If you don't agree with it don't support them. ;)

[DexDexter]

The more I think about it the more I think credit should go to Alonso for arriving in a team and ensuring a dominant attitude gets him in the prime position. Felipe is known as a nice guy and a very good driver, but he doesn't come across as a guy who could put the fear of god into his mechanics IMO. Although I don't agree with the way the team orders were dished out, I do think Alonso has done well to make himself as the teams number one.

I agree, he now has want he wants and in that respect he's done much better than Kimi did. Räikkönen didn't want to win at all costs, he just wanted to drive whereas Fernando wants to win the WDC, even if it takes bending the regulations and being unfair towards his team mate. His attitude resembles Schumacher and the Tifoso loved him so.....

[ArrowsFA1]

McLaren, RD and LH are not saints. Everyone knows that.
Who is a saint in the F1 paddock :confused: :p

[Tazio]

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/244231/ferrari-won-t-turn-me-into-a-barrichello-massa/


“If that happens, I will give up racing for Ferrari; I never start a race hoping to come second and I’m sure I could win next year.”

Strong words from Felipe.

I wonder if he has always felt that way. Mike and him got along quite well.
But I'm pretty sure he knew he was #2.
And why is it that Bild gets all the good stories? :confused: :cool:

[Tazio]

Wow :eek: :eek:
The bullets have turned into mortar rounds.
I love a good soap opera :)


In football, a vote of confidence is more often than not followed by swift dismissal, and while the outcome for Massa may not be so brutally final, the very fact Di Montezemolo felt compelled to make it in the first place arguably does not bode well.

Massa claims his struggles this season have been down to his failure to get to grips with his car's tyres. The 29-year-old has vowed next year will be better, and says he has no intention of becoming a number two driver to Alonso on a regular basis.

It is to be hoped that Massa can turn around his form, as there are few who would begrudge him success after he missed out on the 2008 championship to Lewis Hamilton by a single point and narrowly cheated death in a freak qualifying accident at last year's Hungarian Grand Prix.

Yet it is difficult to escape the feeling that Massa will never thrive against Alonso in the same way that he did when teamed with Kimi Raikkonen between 2007 and 2009.

After Raikkonen won the title in 2007, Massa enjoyed a period of sustained superiority over the Finn which was only ended by his Hungary accident.

Returning to action at the start of this season, Massa was confronted with a new team-mate in Alonso who was far more motivated and performing at a higher level than Raikkonen, who appeared to tire of F1 in his final few months at Ferrari.

The task has sadly been beyond the Brazilian, and by the time of the German Grand Prix in July - just over halfway through the season - he found himself in a position where he was already regarded as Alonso's wing man, and was asked to gift the lead and the victory to his team-mate.

It was a moment that could yet shape the destiny of the 2010 season. When the shouting stops in Abu Dhabi on November 14, those seven extra points could be the difference between Alonso winning the title and not.

Should that scenario play out, the importance of team orders - love them or loathe them - will be firmly underscored, and will justify the Scuderia's controversial actions at Hockenheim.

http://www.sportinglife.com/formula1/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=formula1/10/10/07/AUTO_Column.html
:s ailor: Let the mud slinging begin.

[DexDexter]

Wow :eek: :eek:
The bullets have turned into mortar rounds.
I love a good soap opera :)


http://www.sportinglife.com/formula1/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=formula1/10/10/07/AUTO_Column.html
:s ailor: Let the mud slinging begin.

What a joke of an article. "Räikkönen who appeared tire of F1 in his final few months of ..." :D Winning a race and having a string of podium finishes with a car that hadn't been developed in months surely suggests that.

[Firstgear]

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/244231/ferrari-won-t-turn-me-into-a-barrichello-massa/



Strong words from Felipe.

I wonder if he has always felt that way. Mike and him got along quite well.
But I'm pretty sure he knew he was #2.


What's worse, being a #2 or not knowing you're a #2.
Sad situation for Massa - if Alonso can stay in the hunt, Filipe may be eating those words quite soon.

[Tazio]

What a joke of an article. "Räikkönen who appeared tire of F1 in his final few months of ..." :D Winning a race and having a string of podium finishes with a car that hadn't been developed in months surely suggests that.That part of the article is definately unfair to Kimi. In fact When Fred was down early in the season he pointed out how a team can turn things around at the end of the season and used Kimi as an example.
One does have to wonder if FM didn't have an injury if Kimi would have beaten him.
As for motivation, that is only something a real insider could claim.

[Tazio]

That's exactly what I was pointing out!. That's got nothimg to what the Spainiard could run in the corners!@! :vader:

[mstillhere]

mstillhere, this seems to be a contradiction. If "making Ferrari the winner" is the objective, then WCC should be the only goal. Maximizing constructors points doesn't require a certain pilot to always be ahead of the other. All it requires is that they both get as close to the front as possible. Which one is in front, relative to the other, bears no significance.

The only time you'd be concerned about consistently placing one pilot above the other is if your objective is the WDC. Doing this strives to "make the pilot famous".

So...having a #1 early on, means you're going for the WDC.
Treating 'em equal means WCC is more important.

What I am trying to say is that for Ferrari the equal treatment of the pilots is not part of their running of the business. They definetly want their more skilled pilot to win but not interested, at least that's my reading in having both pilots competing. A competition that could show how skilled both pilots are but that in the end could actually lose Ferrari both champioships. See for example the RB results after Vettel and Webber took each other out. Good for the sport but bad for RB.

[mstillhere]

I think the distinction is that Ferrari believe they can do both. Judging by recent history they have good reason to believe this. I think that is what all the top teams want with their current driver line-ups. I just don't think they expected their number 2's to over achieve, or is it their number ones to under-achieve? In Fred Ferrari believe they have "The One" If Massa would have been beaten by Kimi all the seasons he would be more accepting of his place.
Fred is a god-send to Ferrari. He is a hard working Southern European that is also a speaker of the native language as opposed to Kimi (not Massa)
His monetary value to them is huge.
I understand why many on this forum don't like the arrangement. But I think it is perfect. Remember it took Mike and RB, JT, and Co. a couple years to win it all. This is the path Ferrari is trying to take now! JMHO

It's their team. If you don't agree with it don't support them. ;)

Exactly.

[mstillhere]

Who is a saint in the F1 paddock :confused: :p

MS :)

[mstillhere]

I agree, he now has want he wants and in that respect he's done much better than Kimi did. Räikkönen didn't want to win at all costs, he just wanted to drive whereas Fernando wants to win the WDC, even if it takes bending the regulations and being unfair towards his team mate. His attitude resembles Schumacher and the Tifoso loved him so.....

I don't intimately know Kimi as a professional obviously but based on what I have been reading he races to win but that's it: he races. He feels/felt that the part concerning working with the engineers and mechanics the fine tuning of the car etc. was not part of his responsibilities. Maybe, and that's a big maeby, that's how he operated at McLaren. Ferrari I think sees some MS in Alonso in terms of how serioulsy he takes racing. Interestingly enough both MS and Alonso want desperately be driver #1. Both are meticulous about the car preparation and both developpe a very strong rapport with their engineers. I have a feeling that Lewis might like that too. If true though, McLaren has done a worderful job in hiding it. Only history will tell.

[Tazio]

Apparently this article has been badly translated with abit of artistic license according to Felipe. Are the Bild linked with this story by any chance. :s mokin:



That's exactly what I was pointing out!. That's got nothimg to what the Spainiard could run in the corners!@!....... :confused: :p

Angry Massa hits out at newspaper misquote

"I am very open about what I said, but it wasn't that. I was upset with what came into the press, because it's not nice to read an interview and it's completely the opposite of the truth. The question was 'would you accept being a second driver' and I said 'no because I race to win'."

Massa's team-mate Fernando Alonso accused the newspaper of being part of an attempt to destabilise Ferrari for the benefit of Sebastian Vettel. "I don't think we are going to get nervous about what is said by a newspaper from a country with a driver in the fight for the title," he said.
http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/30482.html?CMP=OTC-RSS
:burn: :burn:

[Tazio]

Going into the race with the grid positions that they qualified in the result is fantastic, mainly due to staying out of trouble. Massa drove a solid race even if he only had one on track pass (Button) And Fred drove a very intelligent race and was able to manage his tires better than Felipe, and also had only one on track pass (The Boss) even if it was a gift ;)
Congrat's to both drivers


:s ailor: Hail Caesar



http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20061029elpepudep_3/XLCO/Ies/Fernando_Alonso_recibe_calor_Oviedo.jpg

[wedge]

Forza Ferrari, Forza Fernando!

FER-NAN-DO!

FER-NAN-DO!

FER-NAN-DO!

FER-NAN-DO!

[donKey jote]

Avanti Fernando !

[Big Ben]

Forza Ferrari, Forza Fernando!

FER-NAN-DO!

FER-NAN-DO!

FER-NAN-DO!

FER-NAN-DO!

so what's with the flag wedge? are you some kind under cover agent? what you write doesn´t go well with the flag :laugh:

[Tazio]

Avanti Fernando !

I blew French Roast out of my nostrils when Fred said Avanti like all serious in a baritone voice (I think he cracked himself up) :p :
That rates just under the Gorilla dance he did on top of the Renault.
That guy is such a cut-up :)

It's at 3:43 of the YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yXugn_p_ag

[Duchess]

Si, avanti Fernando avanti!! His insane laugh after he crossed the line was the exact same as mine, I loved it. :laugh:

I'm still holding to what DC & EJ said after Bahrain where it's been a trend that the driver who wins the first race becomes WDC. Not that I would be sad at Mark Webber winning (he's a great bloke with super skill no doubt), I would just grin like an idiot if Fernando grabbed the win.

[Big Ben]

You've obviously never seen the tifosi presence at Silverstone in that case. There was a time when the Ferrari F1 car was about as British as a plate of Fish and chips, and many fans have gathered since those days. :)

I've seen them I often wondered why, with all the British teams, were there so many tifosi... I found it very annoying when I used to be a McLaren fan in the good all days when Mika was fighting the villain. However they seem to be having better things to do than come here and balance things up a bit :laugh: . good for them.

[Retro Formula 1]

I suppose in Blighty we are a tolerant type and respect peoples loyalities.

Imagine the grief a Itallian McLaren fan would get in Italy :laugh:

Perhaps it should be encouraged to "balance things up a bit"?

[wedge]

so what's with the flag wedge? are you some kind under cover agent? what you write doesn´t go well with the flag :laugh:

In terms of neutrality, I'd say Brit F1 fans are the best in the world with the Japanese next in line though Tifosi are officially banned in Surrey :D

[Tazio]

The following is video evidence of the existence of an Italian McLaren Fan ;)

http://www.grid1.tv/videos/featured/lewis-and-the-bandini-trophy

[mstillhere]

The following is video evidence of the existence of an Italian McLaren Fan ;)

http://www.grid1.tv/videos/featured/lewis-and-the-bandini-trophy

There are quite a few

[pallone col bracciale]

I hope for a Ferrari title, but I still fear the speed of the Red Bulls. It is the fastest car, all things being equal, more often than not.

If Red Bull win the campionato, then it can be said that Ferrari and Alonso did a fantastic job to push them to the last race of the season.

If Red Bull do not win the campionato, then it can be said that they threw away an advantage, but still Ferrari & Alonso did a fantastic job to take this advantage.

Whatever the result, 2010 has seen Ferrari find the right driver for the team and for the future.

[pallone col bracciale]

There are quite a few

But they are Special Needs. Italian Health Service problem.

[Big Ben]

But they are Special Needs. Italian Health Service problem.

that´s a post worth being deleted

[Garry Walker]

that´s a post worth being deleted

Tamburello saying what he always has said.

[Retro Formula 1]

then it can be said that Ferrari and Alonso did a fantastic job

but still Ferrari & Alonso did a fantastic job to take this advantage.

Whatever the result, 2010 has seen Ferrari find the right driver for the team and for the future.

Aren't you forgetting about Massa. If it wasn't for butt Monkey helping out, things might be different.

[pallone col bracciale]

Massa is a Ferrari driver, he is included in the consideration that Ferrari did a fantastic job.

[Tazio]

That's right Ferrari had a great weekend. Fortune smiled on them. :)



Massa is a Ferrari driver, he is included in the consideration that Ferrari did a fantastic job.

Yes Massa drove well for Ferrari in this race.

[Tazio]

One of Alonso's eight engines has very low mileage, but has been unable to be used because it was replaced after qualifying at the Bahrain season opener.

The rules prevented Ferrari from re-deploying this engine for anything other than free practice sessions, after it was replaced in Bahrain as a precaution due to the F60 almost overheating.

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1288602166/formula_one/F1headlines/Alonso-engine-boost/view.html

Will this lump have been fitted with the valve seats that Ferrari got permission to do later in the season?

[Tazio]

Let me try that again: :crazy: :s pinhead:

According to this article Ferrari will be able to use the engine that was only used in Bahrain practice in Abu Dhabi.
Will this lump have the valve upgrade that Ferrari got permission to do after that race weekend?

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/new...oost/view.html


One of Alonso's eight engines has very low mileage, but has been unable to be used because it was replaced after qualifying at the Bahrain season opener.

The rules prevented Ferrari from re-deploying this engine for anything other than free practice sessions, after it was replaced in Bahrain as a precaution due to the F60 almost overheating.

But because Abu Dhabi is the season finale, Alonso is allowed to use any engine in his allocation there, and the Bahrain qualifying unit is extremely low on mileage.

[AndyL]

Let me try that again: :crazy: :s pinhead:

According to this article Ferrari will be able to use the engine that was only used in Bahrain practice in Abu Dhabi.
Will this lump have the valve upgrade that Ferrari got permission to do after that race weekend?

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/new...oost/view.html

I suspect not... the FIA seals are applied before the engine is first used. I don't think an engine can be modified and re-homologated after that point.

In any case, if that engine hasn't been run for 8 months, will it still be in a usable state?

[Tazio]

.....

[Tazio]

I suspect not... the FIA seals are applied before the engine is first used. I don't think an engine can be modified and re-homologated after that point.

In any case, if that engine hasn't been run for 8 months, will it still be in a usable state?I'm starting to think this reprt is B.S.
Fred blew a engine in Maylasia and in China practice The one he blew in china I'm pretty sure was engine #1

http://www.vivaf1.com/engine.php

[Roamy]

They cheated - they put TC on Alonso's car.. But went the FIA confiscated the EU all the printout said is "Michael was Here: :)

[555-04Q2]

Old.......

[F1boat]

Ferrari did a fantastic job even if there is problem and in the end they lose. But I hope for the best. Still, the engine concerns may be premature as there is rain expected in Brazil. Everything can still happen!

[DexDexter]

Ferrari did a fantastic job even if there is problem and in the end they lose. But I hope for the best. Still, the engine concerns may be premature as there is rain expected in Brazil. Everything can still happen!

Let's be realistic. Ferrari have done an excellent job in the second half of the season but if you look at the season as a whole, both drivers have made too many unforced errors. Alonso would be leading the championship comfortably if it wasn't for HIS mistakes earlier in the year. Having said that, other teams have a similar situation and nobody really deserves this year's championship. For us viewers, though, things are fantastic.

[F1boat]

Let's be realistic. Ferrari have done an excellent job in the second half of the season but if you look at the season as a whole, both drivers have made too many unforced errors. Alonso would be leading the championship comfortably if it wasn't for HIS mistakes earlier in the year. Having said that, other teams have a similar situation and nobody really deserves this year's championship. For us viewers, though, things are fantastic.

Formula One drivers are humans and it is very difficult not to make mistakes in the heat of the season, so I have to say that all five of the contenders for the championship have done a very good job.

[Tazio]

I think all three top teams have done a fantastic job in terms of development, but the Red Bull advantage has been a difficult gap to close and so far hasn't been achieved by either Ferrari or Mclaren. They've done well to stay close and keep themselves in the title fight, and as you say all three teams have had drivers making unforced errors. I think if Vettel, Webber, Alonso and Hamilton had kept their noses clean we'd still have a close championship, but if only one of those drivers had made no mistakes, the championship would have been sewn up by now. It could quite easily have been won by the second or third best team by now. Its been a rollercoaster of a season. :)
Very well stated.

[Duchess]

I think all three top teams have done a fantastic job in terms of development, but the Red Bull advantage has been a difficult gap to close and so far hasn't been achieved by either Ferrari or Mclaren. They've done well to stay close and keep themselves in the title fight, and as you say all three teams have had drivers making unforced errors. I think if Vettel, Webber, Alonso and Hamilton had kept their noses clean we'd still have a close championship, but if only one of those drivers had made no mistakes, the championship would have been sewn up by now. It could quite easily have been won by the second or third best team by now. Its been a rollercoaster of a season. :)

Could not agree with this more. :up: Mistake-free seasons are extremely rare, and boring anyway!

[jens]

Could not agree with this more. :up: Mistake-free seasons are extremely rare, and boring anyway!

Based on that it's quite impressive, how Alonso managed to get through 2006 season virtually mistake-free despite being involved in a close championship battle.

[pallone col bracciale]

There are quite a few

Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.

[Tazio]

New wing?

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/gallery/pictures/2010/f1/gp-interlagos-04nov/019wri.jpg

That is a very busy T-tray

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/gallery/pictures/2010/f1/gp-interlagos-04nov/022wri.jpg

The Ferrari diffuser looks like it has grown to McLarian proportions :p :

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/gallery/pictures/2010/f1/gp-interlagos-04nov/023wri.jpg

[Tazio]

SAO PAULO -- A Brazilian prosecutor warned Felipe Massa that he could be arrested and sentenced to up to six years in prison if he takes team orders to help Ferrari teammate Fernando Alonso win the Formula One title.

Massa could be charged with fraud if he allows Alonso to pass him or if he does anything else that would somehow alter the result Sunday at in Interlagos, according to prosecutor Paulo Castilho, known for taking up sports causes in Brazil.

"Massa or any other driver who does anything to fraud the result of the race can be arrested and formally charged," Castilho told The Associated Press on Thursday. "It doesn't mean that it will happen, it will be up to the local authority in charge of the event to decide whether the law has been broken."

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/f1/news/story?id=5765983

:s ailor: Some people will do anything to get their name in the papers

FM thought that spring hurt his head last season.
Home Boy better be checkin' out " the Grassy Knoll" :erm: :p :
:rotflmao:

[Tazio]

:s ailor: Avanti

http://www.formula1.com/video/race_edits.html

[ShiftingGears]

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/f1/news/story?id=5765983

:s ailor: Some people will do anything to get their name in the papers

FM thought that spring hurt his head last season.
Home Boy better be checkin' out " the Grassy Knoll" :erm: :p :
:rotflmao:

Some people are just an embarrassment to the human race.

[SGWilko]

New wing?

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/gallery/pictures/2010/f1/gp-interlagos-04nov/019wri.jpg
Nope, just a poor Photoshop attempt


That is a very busy T-tray

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/gallery/pictures/2010/f1/gp-interlagos-04nov/022wri.jpg
Not really, there isn't even a milk jug on it......


The Ferrari diffuser looks like it has grown to McLarian proportions :p :

http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/gallery/pictures/2010/f1/gp-interlagos-04nov/023wri.jpg

[Retro Formula 1]

Great Pics Mr A

[DexDexter]

Formula One drivers are humans and it is very difficult not to make mistakes in the heat of the season, so I have to say that all five of the contenders for the championship have done a very good job.

No they haven't. Michael didn't make so many mistakes in his prime nor did Alain Prost. Alonso did very few mistakes in 2006, the same goes for Räikkönen in 2007. This year has seen a lot of driver errors from top drivers.

[Tazio]

No they haven't. Michael didn't make so many mistakes in his prime nor did Alain Prost. Alonso did very few mistakes in 2006, the same goes for Räikkönen in 2007. This year has seen a lot of driver errors from top drivers.

That does seem to be the case. What do you attribute it to?
Lack of TC?

[pallone col bracciale]

Congratulations to Red Bull and Vettel. Worthy opponents.

[555-04Q2]

Good try from the Ferrari team in the second half of the season :up: They may not have made it in the end, but they gave the fastest car on the grid a bloody good run for its money. Hopefully a better start next year and a couple of trophies as well.

[pino]

Thanks Ferrari, thanks Alonso anyway, you were just beaten by a better Team and a better/faster driver :up: Time to start working hard and concentrate on 2011 season now...

Forza Ferrari !

[CaptainRaiden]

What do you Ferrari fans think of the management's decision to bring Massa and Alonso in earlier to cover Webber. Even at that point in race, do you think that was a smart move? Especially seeing how some of the mid-fielders pitted during the safety car period. Surely Ferrari would have known about that!

And what about Alonso's gesticulation post race towards Petrov? He was beaten fair and square. Did you think that was unsportsmanlike? Petrov is paid by Renault to get his car into points, not to let Alonso through, so he was only doing his job. Do you think Alonso still needs some maturing to do? Call it the Latin temperament or whatever, because it seems he reacts awkwardly in situations where things didn't go as planned.

[Big Ben]

What do you Ferrari fans think of the management's decision to bring Massa and Alonso in earlier to cover Webber. Even at that point in race, do you think that was a smart move? Especially seeing how some of the mid-fielders pitted during the safety car period. Surely Ferrari would have known about that!

And what about Alonso's gesticulation post race towards Petrov? He was beaten fair and square. Did you think that was unsportsmanlike? Petrov is paid by Renault to get his car into points, not to let Alonso through, so he was only doing his job. Do you think Alonso still needs some maturing to do? Call it the Latin temperament or whatever, because it seems he reacts awkwardly in situations where things didn't go as planned.

Who knows, I've read they pitted Alonso so early because after MW's pit stop the Australian was going faster and then they were risking to fall behind him too and who knows if Petrov hadn't been a good step team mate like Jaime was a few laps before and just let him go.

[Big Ben]

Ferrari did do well this season and Alonso's drives were class to make up the points to bring it to the last race. I was starting to warm to the guy and appreciate his talents once more and then his behaviour in defeat soured it abit... But hey theres always next year and Ferrari seem a dominant force once more. :)

Nice too see there's still reasonable people on the other side

[pino]

Nice too see there's still reasonable people on the other side

Exactly, wish we had more people like henners88 in here :up:

[ArrowsFA1]

I'd like to thank Ferrari (or should that be Alonso?) for taking the title down to the wire. The Brits at McLaren didn't quite have enough for the Red Bulls over the season but Alonso, in an inferior car, almost pulled it off.

Perhaps he couldn't have done it without Felipe's help at Hockenheim but that who team orders issue is water under the bridge now and will hopefully be finally resolved by the FIA before next season. Even without those extra points Alonso showed that he is probably the best all-round driver on the grid, although we could have done without his frustration at Petrov boiling over at the end of the race.

Ferrari, under Stefano Domenicali, have done a good job this year and will probably be even better in 2011.

[jens]

Alonso's second half of the season was mighty impressive. Can never count him out even if the situation looks tough, like it was in mid-season. In 2008 he also suddenly and unexpectedly pulled off two race wins after a horrible start into the season. But 2011 will be another opportunity and it's really impossible not to consider him among the biggest favourites for the crown, so perhaps he will reach that third WDC in coming seasons after many years of waiting.

[airshifter]

What do you Ferrari fans think of the management's decision to bring Massa and Alonso in earlier to cover Webber. Even at that point in race, do you think that was a smart move? Especially seeing how some of the mid-fielders pitted during the safety car period. Surely Ferrari would have known about that!

And what about Alonso's gesticulation post race towards Petrov? He was beaten fair and square. Did you think that was unsportsmanlike? Petrov is paid by Renault to get his car into points, not to let Alonso through, so he was only doing his job. Do you think Alonso still needs some maturing to do? Call it the Latin temperament or whatever, because it seems he reacts awkwardly in situations where things didn't go as planned.

I don't think they had much choice in regards to the stop. The Red Bull cars were fast on the prime tire, and they couldn't lose position to Webber. Both Webber and Alonso were losing time to those ahead, and you can't move forward by going backwards. It didn't work in the end, but wasn't a bad call in my opinion.

As for the Petrov thing, I'm sure it was pure frustration, and probably something Alonso will regret. His comments in following days will show what he thinks.

Both Alonso and Ferrari learned that they will not always be on top. Hopefully they will come back strong and rise to the greatness they have had in past years. Considering the strength of the Red Bull cars this season there should be no shame in almost earning another WDC.

[Garry Walker]

I'd like to thank Ferrari (or should that be Alonso?) for taking the title down to the wire. The Brits at McLaren didn't quite have enough for the Red Bulls over the season but Alonso, in an inferior car, almost pulled it off.

Perhaps he couldn't have done it without Felipe's help at Hockenheim but that who team orders issue is water under the bridge now and will hopefully be finally resolved by the FIA before next season. Even without those extra points Alonso showed that he is probably the best all-round driver on the grid, although we could have done without his frustration at Petrov boiling over at the end of the race.


Alonso can thank the incompetence of Red Bull that he was ever in a position to win, despite his huge number of mistakes this year.

[Big Ben]

Alonso can thank the incompetence of Red Bull that he was ever in a position to win, despite his huge number of mistakes this year.

Nice signiture. prettly shameless considering who started a thread about how is Schumi going to destroy Rosberg. The same clueless guy was stating somewhere else that Massa is going to beat Alonso and everyone will see just how bad he actually is. It's quite clear you know nothing about f1 and not even pure logic helps you. You just come here doing your best to start a fight with silly statements.

[DexDexter]

I'd like to thank Ferrari (or should that be Alonso?) for taking the title down to the wire. The Brits at McLaren didn't quite have enough for the Red Bulls over the season but Alonso, in an inferior car, almost pulled it off.

Perhaps he couldn't have done it without Felipe's help at Hockenheim but that who team orders issue is water under the bridge now and will hopefully be finally resolved by the FIA before next season. Even without those extra points Alonso showed that he is probably the best all-round driver on the grid, although we could have done without his frustration at Petrov boiling over at the end of the race.

Ferrari, under Stefano Domenicali, have done a good job this year and will probably be even better in 2011.


Alonso was very good at this season's latter part but to me Ferrari are on a downward spiral and next year is a big question mark.

In 2008 Ferrari won the constructors championship, 2009 they were third and again this year they were third. They've had a mediocre car for two years now, although this year's car was better than the one they had last year.

[jens]

Alonso was very good at this season's latter part but to me Ferrari are on a downward spiral and next year is a big question mark.

In 2008 Ferrari won the constructors championship, 2009 they were third and again this year they were third. They've had a mediocre car for two years now, although this year's car was better than the one they had last year.

Umm, I would say this year's car was quite decent with the exception of some tough races (like Turkey). Overall I'd say that Ferrari had a better car than McLaren, but the Woking team had a more balanced driver line-up, which turned the WCC battle in their favour. 2010 F10 was far from mediocre (I don't think you can call second best car like that), actually I would be more concerned about McLaren's future than Ferrari's. McLaren has seemed slightly inferior to Ferrari ever since 2006 and in 2010 they were struggling with car development somewhat, especially since mid-season they were seriously stagnated.

[DexDexter]

Umm, I would say this year's car was quite decent with the exception of some tough races (like Turkey). Overall I'd say that Ferrari had a better car than McLaren, but the Woking team had a more balanced driver line-up, which turned the WCC battle in their favour. 2010 F10 was far from mediocre (I don't think you can call second best car like that), actually I would be more concerned about McLaren's future than Ferrari's. McLaren has seemed slightly inferior to Ferrari ever since 2006 and in 2010 they were struggling with car development somewhat, especially since mid-season they were seriously stagnated.

Maybe mediocre is a bit of an overstatement but the fact is the constructor's championship shows a downward spiral. Ferrari's unbalanced line-up was of their own making, first by choosing an injured Massa over Räikkönen and then demoralising Massa by making him move over at Hockenheim. Alonso, however, was very good after Massa had lost his form, so it seems Alonso still needs a weak team mate and the attention of the team to perform, which he did.

[Tazio]

Ferrari had a good year and developed the car quite well. I don't think they have an edge on McLaren goining into 2011. McLaren started with a car that was not as easy to modify right out of the gate. I doubt that they will make that mistake again.
:s ailor: With "The Boss" they are always in the WDC fight. :vader:

[Big Ben]

I was talking about another poster in my post above not Garry, my mistake.. I'd forgotten Garry started the thread about Schumacher beating Rosberg. :)

It´s ok. We all know who´s missing but not missed :laugh:

[AJP]

I'm sure you have all probably seen this, but I'll add it just in case

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGnQnce_SsQ&feature=player_embedded

I really want to go on this ride... :)

The acceleration looks amazing !

[N4D13]

I'm amazed at how people call Alonso's first half of the season "terrible" and "full of mistakes". Here are the mistakes I think he's done over the entire season:

- Australia - Got knocked out in the start. I don't think it's a mistake but a racing incident - and it was 50-50 IMHO.
- China - jumped start - ok, 100% mistake.
- Monaco - crashed in practice. It was driver mistake all the way, but he was extremely unlucky to wreck his chassis. Other drivers have crashed heavily during practice (e.g. Hamilton in Germany) but haven't been drawn so much criticism because they could take part in quali.
- Silverstone - overtaking Kubica that way might could have been a mistake, but not giving the place back wasn't his fault.
- Belgium - crashed out in tricky conditions. Driver mistake again.

So, basically, I would only count the China jumpstart and the Belgium accident - maybe Monaco as well if you like, but I've already stated that he was extremely unfortunate there - a mistake during practice ruined his race.

Am I missing any mistake or something? In any case, I think that calling Alonso's first half of the season "terrible" is, at least, rather harsh.

[ioan]

- Monaco - crashed in practice. It was driver mistake all the way, but he was extremely unlucky to wreck his chassis.
...
So, basically, I would only count the China jumpstart and the Belgium accident - maybe Monaco as well if you like...

WTH?
First you say it was a driver mistake than you start talking BS about the very same incident. Impressive!
:laugh:

It's not about what we would like, it's all about FACTS! But who am I kidding?!

[UltimateDanGTR]

I'm amazed at how people call Alonso's first half of the season "terrible" and "full of mistakes". Here are the mistakes I think he's done over the entire season:

- Australia - Got knocked out in the start. I don't think it's a mistake but a racing incident - and it was 50-50 IMHO.
- China - jumped start - ok, 100% mistake.
- Monaco - crashed in practice. It was driver mistake all the way, but he was extremely unlucky to wreck his chassis. Other drivers have crashed heavily during practice (e.g. Hamilton in Germany) but haven't been drawn so much criticism because they could take part in quali.
- Silverstone - overtaking Kubica that way might could have been a mistake, but not giving the place back wasn't his fault.
- Belgium - crashed out in tricky conditions. Driver mistake again.

So, basically, I would only count the China jumpstart and the Belgium accident - maybe Monaco as well if you like, but I've already stated that he was extremely unfortunate there - a mistake during practice ruined his race.

Am I missing any mistake or something? In any case, I think that calling Alonso's first half of the season "terrible" is, at least, rather harsh.

I wouldn't call the first half of Alonso's season 'terrible' as such, because that is rather harsh IMO, but certainly a poor first half for him.

Australia looked like his fault to me.
China was his fault.
Monaco was his fault he crashed, but if it was anywhere else he may not have ended up in the barrier.
Britain was his fault-I dont understand why he didnt give the place back.
Belgium was ofcourse his mistake, though many made mistakes that weekend, including race winner Hamilton.

For his standards he made silly mistakes in the early part of the season, and seemed to be very grumpy and not a happy bunny until Germany. still, he actually got good results in Australia, China and Monaco somehow-some through luck it would seem, others through good strategy (Monaco in particular)

He was immense near the end of the season bar Yas Marina, but he wasnt the Fernando Alonso on track we know in the early races. unfortunatly he was still the same off the track though.

[Big Ben]

WTH?
First you say it was a driver mistake than you start talking BS about the very same incident. Impressive!
:laugh:

It's not about what we would like, it's all about FACTS! But who am I kidding?!

Noone. We all know to take what you say for what it is. I ll be civilzed and I want be as specific as your are. He explained it quite well but noone wonders you didn't get it bobo.

[Roamy]

volkswagon having anything to do with Ferrari is like putting a terd on your New York rare with a bottle of 10 year old cab !!

[CNR]

I hope for massa that this is F'''en BullS''''
Adrian Sutil to Ferrari?
http://www.timesleader.com/sports/sportsblogs/f1etc/Adrian_Sutil_to_Ferrari.html



BBC F1 pundit Jonathan Legard is reporting on his Twitter page (http://twitter.com/legardj) that the future of Felipe Massa is far from certain. While this may not be a total surprise, what is most unbelievable is that Force India driver Adrian Sutil is being lined up to replace him at Ferrari.

[ioan]

I hope for massa that this is F'''en BullS''''
Adrian Sutil to Ferrari?
http://www.timesleader.com/sports/sportsblogs/f1etc/Adrian_Sutil_to_Ferrari.html

It could be only good for Massa if it happens, he doesn't deserve the crap Ferrari is giving him.
Though one has to feel really bad for Sutil taking up the 'Alonso is faster than you, confirm that you understood the message!' role.

[mstillhere]

Umm, I would say this year's car was quite decent with the exception of some tough races (like Turkey). Overall I'd say that Ferrari had a better car than McLaren, but the Woking team had a more balanced driver line-up, which turned the WCC battle in their favour. 2010 F10 was far from mediocre (I don't think you can call second best car like that), actually I would be more concerned about McLaren's future than Ferrari's. McLaren has seemed slightly inferior to Ferrari ever since 2006 and in 2010 they were struggling with car development somewhat, especially since mid-season they were seriously stagnated.

IMO Ferrari' major mistake was focusing way too much of the McLAren's
F-Duct neglitting other devellopment areas. Once they realized that they could have gotten more speed by developping the front wings, for example, then the car became faster. But I guess they were a little too late compared to RB.

[F1boat]

Ferrari were not consistent enough and made some strategy errors.

[jens]

I'm amazed at how people call Alonso's first half of the season "terrible" and "full of mistakes". Here are the mistakes I think he's done over the entire season:

- Australia - Got knocked out in the start. I don't think it's a mistake but a racing incident - and it was 50-50 IMHO.
- China - jumped start - ok, 100% mistake.
- Monaco - crashed in practice. It was driver mistake all the way, but he was extremely unlucky to wreck his chassis. Other drivers have crashed heavily during practice (e.g. Hamilton in Germany) but haven't been drawn so much criticism because they could take part in quali.
- Silverstone - overtaking Kubica that way might could have been a mistake, but not giving the place back wasn't his fault.
- Belgium - crashed out in tricky conditions. Driver mistake again.

So, basically, I would only count the China jumpstart and the Belgium accident - maybe Monaco as well if you like, but I've already stated that he was extremely unfortunate there - a mistake during practice ruined his race.

Am I missing any mistake or something? In any case, I think that calling Alonso's first half of the season "terrible" is, at least, rather harsh.

It's not just these mistakes, but in mid-season Alonso seemed to have lost a bit of his usual focus. He let both Hamilton and Button pass him relatively easy in Canada plus also Kobayashi at Valencia. A driver, who has usually been praised for being really hard to overtake (he kept Schumacher, who was lapping 2 secs per lap faster, behind him at Imola'05), was caught asleep. Among mistakes I can also recall qualifying session for the Turkish GP, where he missed Q3.

The Monaco incident has perhaps been a bit overblown indeed. Webber missed the Japanese GP qualifying in 2009 for exactly the same reason, but no-one bashed or even criticised him seriously for that - he was considered 'unlucky' instead.

[ioan]

It's not just these mistakes, but in mid-season Alonso seemed to have lost a bit of his usual focus. He let both Hamilton and Button pass him relatively easy in Canada plus also Kobayashi at Valencia.

He's lost it! I tell ya, he's lost it! :p

[Garry Walker]

Nice signiture. prettly shameless considering who started a thread about how is Schumi going to destroy Rosberg. The same clueless guy was stating somewhere else that Massa is going to beat Alonso and everyone will see just how bad he actually is. It's quite clear you know nothing about f1 and not even pure logic helps you. You just come here doing your best to start a fight with silly statements.

What is wrong with my signature?

I have more F1 knowledge in my left testicle than you will ever have, my dear friend.

[Garry Walker]

I'm amazed at how people call Alonso's first half of the season "terrible" and "full of mistakes". Here are the mistakes I think he's done over the entire season:

- Australia - Got knocked out in the start. I don't think it's a mistake but a racing incident - and it was 50-50 IMHO.
- China - jumped start - ok, 100% mistake.
- Monaco - crashed in practice. It was driver mistake all the way, but he was extremely unlucky to wreck his chassis. Other drivers have crashed heavily during practice (e.g. Hamilton in Germany) but haven't been drawn so much criticism because they could take part in quali.
- Silverstone - overtaking Kubica that way might could have been a mistake, but not giving the place back wasn't his fault.
- Belgium - crashed out in tricky conditions. Driver mistake again.

So, basically, I would only count the China jumpstart and the Belgium accident - maybe Monaco as well if you like, but I've already stated that he was extremely unfortunate there - a mistake during practice ruined his race.

Am I missing any mistake or something? In any case, I think that calling Alonso's first half of the season "terrible" is, at least, rather harsh.
:rotflmao:

A very unbiased review from you there. I will give you an equally unbiased review
Here are the number of races where Alonso performed badly
Bahrain
Australia
Malaysia
China
Spain
Monaco
Turkey
Silverstone
Canada
Valencia
Hungary
Spa
Monza
Singapore
Japan
Korea
Brazil
Abu Dhabi


The one where he performed brilliantly, IMO, was Germany where his speed and pressure made Felipe make a mistake and Nando in a perfect, almost sexy, way, overtook him.

[wedge]

:rotflmao:

A very unbiased review from you there. I will give you an equally unbiased review
Here are the number of races where Alonso performed badly
Bahrain
Australia
Malaysia
China
Spain
Monaco
Turkey
Silverstone
Canada
Valencia
Hungary
Spa
Monza
Singapore
Japan
Korea
Brazil
Abu Dhabi


The one where he performed brilliantly, IMO, was Germany where his speed and pressure made Felipe make a mistake and Nando in a perfect, almost sexy, way, overtook him.

Ever thought about becoming a comedian?

[Garry Walker]

Ever thought about becoming a comedian?

Yes.

[ioan]

The one where he performed brilliantly, IMO, was Germany where his speed and pressure made Felipe make a mistake and Nando in a perfect, almost sexy, way, overtook him.

:rotflmao: :up: Spot on!

[Big Ben]

What is wrong with my signature?

I have more F1 knowledge in my left testicle than you will ever have, my dear friend.

I'm pretty sure all your F1 knowledge is located there.

[henners88]

I'm pretty sure all your F1 knowledge is located there.
Oh dear I have a St.D signature too. :eek:

[Big Ben]

Oh dear I have a St.D signature too. :eek:

ok. and the problem is...?

[henners88]

ok. and the problem is...?
No, no its ok I've just had a good feel around and I'm pretty sure my intelligence has receeded away from my left testicle. And back in the room.

[ArrowsFA1]

RwqhUs4YC2w
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/11/29/alonso-and-massa-sample-classic-ferraris-in-spain/

[Tazio]

RwqhUs4YC2w
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/11/29/alonso-and-massa-sample-classic-ferraris-in-spain/

This Vid. is

http://www3.obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/26385-freakin-sweet.gif

Thanks for sharing Arrows :up:

[Tazio]

“I am very pleased to learn that the majority of team principals chose me as their best driver of the year, even if it goes without saying that I would have preferred to receive that accolade in the guise of world champion,” Fernando said on the team’s official website. “It is yet another reason to claim this has been an amazing season, despite the disappointment at the final hurdle. The team and I fought all the way to the very end, without ever giving up, even when it all seemed like a lost cause: we staged a remarkable comeback. Next year, we will be looking to do better, but I will still remember 2010 as a wonderful year.”

“I am pleased and proud that Fernando has been rated by my fellow team principals as the best driver of this past year: he had a fantastic season,” added Stefano Domenicali. “It is hardly a secret that he is a talented driver, but I must say, on behalf of everyone at Ferrari, that it was an honour for us to work with him from the human perspective. Fernando was a driving force and our aim next year will be to give him and Felipe a car which is competitive at the very highest level, right from the first race.”
http://www.newsnow.co.uk/A/461570775?-2724

Thoughts, and insults? :p :

[Retro Formula 1]

http://www.newsnow.co.uk/A/461570775?-2724

Thoughts, and insults? :p :

He was a tenatious bugger all year and never gave up. :up:

OK, he is hugely favoured but anyone that denies his talent is blind. I don't agree with the vote but that doesn't detract from Alonso's performance this year.

[DexDexter]

IMO Alonso drove an excellent second half of the season, he was definitely the best driver in the latter part (with Vettel) but very average in some of the early races.

[Mia 01]

Alonso is one of them, but far away from the best driver.

[donKey jote]

Not yet, but just you wait and see when he tries rallying :p :laugh:

[DexDexter]

Not yet, but just you wait and see when he tries rallying :p :laugh:

I don't know, shouting "this is ridicilous" won't help in rallying since there is no racing going on. ;)

Honestly, though, IMO Alonso is an excellent driver, it's just the garbage that comes with him: Spanish press, stupid fans (some of them) who are now after Petrov I hear and scandals that seem to follow him. It may be hard to believe but he used to my favourite driver but now it's very hard to like him :)

[jens]

It may be hard to believe but he used to my favourite driver

Interesting! When was that? 2001? 2003? :) :p :

[Mia 01]

The craschgate is up again.

[DexDexter]

Interesting! When was that? 2001? 2003? :) :p :

I liked him when he was at Minardi and his first years at Renault.

[pino]

I've always liked him...as driver ;)

[Tazio]

Very interesting technical review from Ferrari. Gives a good and surprisingly detailed description of the technical updates of the F10:
http://season_review_2010.ferrari.com/main2/index.html

[airshifter]

Very interesting technical review from Ferrari. Gives a good and surprisingly detailed description of the technical updates of the F10:
http://season_review_2010.ferrari.com/main2/index.html

That is a fairly good description of the technical side of the car.


But I've seen much better at the copy shop! :laugh:

[Tazio]

That is a fairly good description of the technical side of the car.


But I've seen much better at the copy shop! :laugh:

Quoted for brilliant wit, and irony. :beer: :champion:

[Mia 01]

They need to work tings out during the winter. At least come up with some new ideas of their own if they want to win something in the end.

[Tazio]

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=396787

http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/37229.html?CMP=OTC-RSS


The mandatory monocoque tests reportedly took place under FIA guidelines and in the presence of an official observer at the CSI technical facility in Bollate, near Milan.

The reports cited rumours that the outcome of the tests was a relief to Ferrari's Aldo Costa-led design team, due to fundamental differences between the F10 and its successor.

A key difference, said the reports, is in the new monocoque's actual construction and composite materials, which are more extreme for 2011.

[Mia 01]

They will need a great car this year, drivers out

[Tazio]

On stage after the farewell dinner, Alonso took the microphone and announced he would be performing a magic card trick.

He called upon the help of Roberta Vallorosi. "She worked with Valentino Rossi and now she is my press secretary," said Alonso in fluent Italian, according to O Estado de S.Paulo.

Alonso then also called MotoGP great Rossi onto the stage to be his second assistant, and performed an elaborate card trick using props including a condom and a teddy bear.

"How was that possible?" Rossi marvelled after the Ferrari driver retrieved the missing card.
That is an easy question that any hater on this forum could explain.

Freds cheating knows no bounds :laugh:

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=397928

[Tazio]

This bit iss interesting to me (I've also tweaked the translation)



Costa ... feels the presence breathing down his neck, of Pat Fry, deputy technical director came from McLaren, who in the organization chart of the Scudera is installed between the technical manager of Parma and Nikolas Tombazis, chief designer of F10. The englishman has brought a wave of innovation: concepts and methods of work to be innovated in the structure of the Scudera.
It seems like Fry has been brought in to give a bit of Ron Dennis rigor to Ferrari. :eek: This may be a type of move that has been here to fore unconsidered
Thoughts?

[pino]

http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formula1/News/Headlines/Pages/110125_F1_Ferrari_s_new_Formula_1_car_to_be_called _F150.aspx

[Tazio]

I read on another forum that they are being very careful not disclose any info about the back of the car.
Rumor is it has a pull rod suspension.
Big surprise :dozey:

[pino]

Well they've gone from the F60 to the F10 so naturally the obvious choice for the next car would be the F150. Great news.

The choice of name stems from Ferrari’s desire to pay tribute to this year’s one hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the Unification of Italy.

btw those who are interessed can watch/follow the show on friday at ferrari.com or Ital tv Rai 2.

[pino]

I was aware of that Pino, cheers... ;) ;)

I wanted to be sure about it :p :

[Tazio]

The choice of name stems from Ferrari’s desire to pay tribute to this year’s one hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the Unification of Italy.



OK I was thinking they named it after a Ford Pick-up Truck :confused: :s mokin:

[Mark]

They couldn't just call it the F2011 and move on? :p

[anthonyvop]

http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formula1/News/Headlines/Pages/110125_F1_Ferrari_s_new_Formula_1_car_to_be_called _F150.aspx

But there already is a F-150

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200608/2007-ford-f-150-6_460x0w.jpg